Welcome, this is the Men Church Stuff Podcast.
This is the show where brothers -in -law DJ Culp
and Brad Coleman talk about stuff from our perspective
as men. It's a show for anyone who wants to hear
how Christians interact with the world. And don't
worry, we're real. We've grown up in church,
and we want to share our experiences with you.
We'll talk life stuff, church stuff, man stuff,
and stuff stuff. Here we go. Greetings, listeners
here and there and everywhere all across the
land. This is the Men Church Stuff Podcast. I
am one of your hosts, DJ... What is my name?
What comes next? It's DJ. It's DJ. Culp. DJ Culp.
As always. Here with my beloved brother -in -law.
Card. What's his name again? Where are the cards?
Where are the cards? Brad Coleman. Not Brad.
Oh, Brad. Yes, Brad. Oh, that's awesome. So it
is summertime, Brad. Yep. You doing okay, man?
Yeah, I played for the kids. School's out for
the summer. Oh, yes. I try to do that every year.
I think I've done it every year. Dude, what a
great song. Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome.
Bravo. I tip my hat to you, sir. Even better
is Isaiah was in the shower and we have a Google
home. And so he was listening to music. So I
switched it over and it's closed out for the
summer. Yeah. You will listen. Awesome. That's
so awesome. So listeners, Brad and I have actually
been visiting for about 15 minutes. And just
to kind of give you guys a bit of an update,
a proud dad moment here. My wife and I took our
kids to Nashville just for a quick overnighter.
We swam for like an hour and a half in the pool.
Dude had the pool to ourselves. It was rocking.
It was nice. So nice. So nice. Yeah. And then.
Earlier today, our middle child, Addie, who is
five and has just finished preschool and going
into kindergarten, today marks a big day in Addie's
life. She got her ears pierced. And today also
marks a very large day in our son's life because
he got his very first guinea pig. Yeah, there's
a lot of things that are going on on the front
side, front end of the summer here in the Culp
household, Brad. And for Zoe, it was just another
day. And for Zoe, it was another day. What's
funny is that whenever Shara told her parents
that. Apparently, this is a joke that I wasn't
aware of until this happened. But her dad sent
a text saying, so what did Zoe get? And Sarah
sent a trip to Nashville. That's right. If you're
new to the show, Zoe, our youngest, is three.
She has no earthly idea what's going on. Yeah.
Well, Brad here at the top of the show. We're
going to do a few memes for you. So listeners,
it's commonplace for us to do memes with Brad
bits. So if you're new to the show, this is where
I throw up a meme that Brad has to read right
there on the spot, doesn't know what it is, and
create a sermon illustration off of it. So let
me... Let me navigate there here real quick,
Brad. All right. And I'm going to share my screen
like this. And off we go. DJ Culp Jr. has started
sharing. Double click. Oh, there we are. All
right. The chocolate cake with the big slice
taken out of it. I would eat healthy, but then
I remember the time Eve ate an apple and doomed
all of humanity. So I don't know better not risk
it. So again, I've mentioned this on the show
before, even though sometimes I get caught up
in it. Wasn't an apple. It was not an apple.
That was a Renaissance painter thing. They needed
to paint something. They came up with an apple.
Why? I don't know. I guess they thought apples
were very, you know, they looked very tempting.
But anyway, the fruit. Want to eat healthy. But
then I remember the time I ate an apple and doomed
all humanity. So I don't know. Better not risk
it. I think of, first I think of the scripture
where it says bodily exercise profits. Prophets
little, but godliness profits to all things.
And I think I've mentioned this before. So what's
the point? God's like, that's not me telling
you not to exercise, and you don't need to exercise.
You heard it here, ladies and gentlemen. I think
of the verse in the Old Testament, I don't know
if it's Proverbs or Ecclesiastes, where it says,
the wicked run when no one's chasing them. And
that's kind of, you know, I would run, but, you
know, the Bible says. I think, again, I'd probably
push this to context is important. It almost
sounds, Brad, like you're saying that this is
true. How easily, right, that we could take those
verses out of context and kind of turn them to
our own, you know, I don't want to run, so I'm
going to use this. I don't want to eat healthy,
so I'm going to make this excuse. And how, you
know, that that doesn't hold water to what the
scripture is actually saying. God said, you know,
don't worry about what you eat. I can eat all
the chocolate cake that I want. It doesn't matter
I'm a diabetic. Jesus told me not to worry about
it. That's not what Jesus was saying. I like
it. I like it. Oh, this is... Brad, I've missed
you, man. All right, Brad, here we go. Next one.
Oh, I was like, yeah, make it bigger. Yeah, I
had a car dealership. And he goes, cargo space?
And the dealer goes, car no do there. Cargo road.
That's a good one. I love this. I love this meme.
So, wow. You made me laugh and now my brain's
like, oh, what do I do with this? I already did
the context thing. I probably cheat a little
bit and go where Peter goes. You know what? You
know what Paul says. And sometimes the things
that Paul say. are difficult to understand that's
right we can't twist his you know we can't twist
the scripture and the words like some of those
people do who are destined to darkness and destruction
that's right and i love it i love that peter
commentates on paul's words in scripture he goes
you know It's like Paul says, and I know that
sometimes the things Paul say, you know, they're
hard to understand. They're tough. But we need
to make sure that we understand them properly.
This car ain't going to space. Cargo space? Car
going to do that. Cargo road. All right, Brad.
Nice, man. Here we go. Next one. A man asked
his wife, what would you do if I won the lottery?
She replied, I'd take half and then leave you.
Great, he said. I won $12 yesterday. Here's six.
Stay in touch. That's horrible. It's so bad.
I would probably go with the things that Satan
tempts us with. And kind of the idea that we
get of that promise is, you know, I'm going to
get this and it's going to give me peace and
happiness and joy. And the reality of sin's pleasure
always has a very big evil catch. You know, the
Bible warns us that there's pleasure in sin for
a season. So you're going to get. More negative
than you anticipated when you start trying to
make deals like that. Yeah, right. This couple
needs marriage counseling also. Maybe go off
of that. It sounds like they've needed marriage
counseling. This isn't square one. yeah like
i i would be willing to say that he finds he
finds a wife finds a good thing yeah yeah yeah
i'd be willing to say that at this point the
straw has already broken the camel's back he's
just trying to find a way to talk about it you
know um yeah Yeah, so it may be a good, actually,
marriage counseling meme to share in a marriage
counseling situation. Let's make sure this doesn't
happen. Yeah. Oh, they weren't laughing. Oh,
they didn't laugh. Okay, that's where we are
then. That's where we are. Oh. You didn't find
that one funny. I was joking. This was a joke.
You would do that. Dude, that would be such a
twisted way for a psychiatrist to get a beat
on his clients. All right, so what I'm going
to do is I'm going to bait them. Depending on
their reaction will give me a good idea as to
where they're at. Well, you only show the first
part, right? So if Bill won the lottery. What
would you do? What would you do? All right. Now
the surprise twist is it was $12. It was 12 bucks.
That's right. All right, Brad, one more. Here
we go. All right. It's a menacing looking raccoon,
like wringing his hands. And it says, they say
one friend out of every group has the potential
to be a serial killer. So I threw Dave off a
cliff just in case it was him. This is one of
my favorites of all time. Don't think it was
Dave. I don't think it was. You know, I would
probably go on here and look at kind of the overzealous
people with justice and those things. And look
at like the Phariseeism that sneaks up on people
and like the people that tend to be Phariseeical.
Yeah. I think don't realize it. They just they
just think they're being righteous. Right. Yeah.
When they're being like over legalistic and and
judgmental and all of that stuff. It's like,
you know, hey. I did the right thing. Yeah. nailing
this person to you know the cross to the cross
yeah yes um you know yeah they were i mean they
were sinning so we you know we just um where
was the grace and love in that yeah yeah and
and and so i i didn't i brad i swear i did not
plan this this is swear this is god moving um
the like listeners our topic today is grace versus
justice And I would say, Brad, like, you know,
this even would kind of be – this would be a
meme, you know, that would kind of illuminate
and draw out sort of the – you can make it –
put it in a comical sense of when Jesus says
to the people, like, you are – I'm trying to
– I'll paraphrase. you're arguing or you're complaining
about about a um a log in your brother's eye
or sorry sorry a speck in your brother's eye
but you've got a log in yours yeah um look at
there and so uh yeah the so so brad well done
that was that was great gosh i'm i'm i have missed
doing that with you yeah um but let me give you
brad just kind of the the glimpse as to where
I, I was or have been with getting the idea of
a show for for grace versus justice. I have this
written in the margin of one of one of our church
bulletins that just simply says, do I give grace?
And that was that's not that was not a. You know,
it wasn't a comment. It wasn't like the main
point or concept. But grace was being talked
about. That was the central center idea of the
message. And I caught myself just asking myself
rhetorically, do I give grace? And so one of
the things, Brad, I'd really like to talk about
is just grace versus justice. um you know mercy
what would be the what would be the opposite
of mercy mercy versus judgment i guess yeah and
so and i think maybe i've mentioned this before
because i certainly have used it a lot even as
a youth pastor or a senior pastor like when i
define justice mercy and grace which by the way
are all important things so we're not trying
to to get rid of any one of them because we They're
all necessary. Justice, I define simply as when
I get what I deserve. Yeah. Okay. So the Bible
says the wages of sin is death. And again, ultimately,
we're talking about eternal death. We're talking
about hell. Right. So justice is when I get what
I deserve. Mercy is when I don't get what I deserve.
Right. So I'm not getting that punishment that
I deserve. That's mercy. And grace is when I
get what I don't deserve. Again, the riches of
heaven. Oh, okay. So mercy is when I don't get
justice, and grace is when I, again, it's not
quite the opposite of justice, but for lack of
a better term, the opposite of justice. Like,
oh, this is what you deserve. So is it safe,
and I don't mean to throw a wrench into what
you're saying too early here in the show, but
would you argue then, I guess more of like on
a philosophical level that it is an injustice,
that grace, that grace would be an injustice.
Oh man, that's, that's, that's a, I think we
feel that way. I mean, it's definitely like almost
like when we look at the gospel, right. And I've
said before, it's kind of scandalous in a sense,
because I deserve to cross. And Jesus, who doesn't
deserve the cross, takes the cross. Right. Now,
he does so willingly. I think that kind of takes
the scandal out of it. Sure. He is the scapegoat,
but he's willingly the scapegoat. He's willingly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's taking my place. He's
volunteering. So it's not fair. It's not fair
that I should get it. his grace and mercy, and
he takes the justice. Yeah, let this cup pass
for me. But again, I think that's what we have
to see in the gospel, that we can't throw away
justice, right? Because God doesn't. God tells
us to seek justice, but to love mercy and to
walk humbly with our God. Yeah, yes. Well, and
to that point, Hosea is one of my favorite references
in Hosea. It says that our lord does not seek
our lord seeks mercy over sacrifice yeah right
so so you follow the letter of the law and don't
give mercy he doesn't care about yeah like at
that point in time he doesn't care about you
following as as what you were saying you know
like the with the with the raccoon meme um you
know the fair the pharisaical nature of like
you can call it legalism you can call it just
checking the boxes whatever the case is and any
and and any um any flavor of any of that but
like at that at that point in time from hosea
that that one reference it tells me that the
boxes that are being checked are not are not
god's central um desire for us it's mercy he
desires mercy he desires for us to grant mercy
yeah well and i think about this here here's
a here's a good pharisee test right okay when
jesus tells them like he who is without sin cast
the first stone right are you are are you ready
to stone the pharisees for what they were doing
right you know all right because now and now
we and now we have an infinite regression of
are you willing to stone the people who are stoning
the pharisees that's right but again we how often
do we see that right oh man this person is that
they deserve it. I mean, I watch those shows
too, and I go, oh, yeah, they better get theirs
in the end. I know, dude. Like, we have that
sense of justice. Yeah, we do. Justice is, God
is just. It's a characteristic of God. The thing
is, justice for us to God is death. It's wrath.
It's to accept those things because we have all
fallen short of his glory, of his standard, of
all that. So I think the cross is proof that
justice is important to God because Jesus takes
that penalty so that we can have grace and mercy.
And so God can still be just. And again, we're
not trying to jump too far into that hoop right
now and have that study. But I definitely would
consider myself a mercy and grace person. And
I prefer mercy and grace. My personality is to
give mercy. Your sister's even argued with me
that it's one of my spiritual gifts. She's like,
mercy is one of your spiritual gifts. You know,
she's more of justice. And we need both. Yes,
she is. We need both. Yes, she is absolutely
more justice. Yeah. I mean, too much mercy and
grace is enabling. Too much justice is just,
I don't know what the word is. I mean, I would
argue it's disabling. Yeah, it is. It's crushing.
It's crushing. Yeah, yeah. And I remember. This
was years ago when I was attempting a Bible in
a year. And I do believe I was in Numbers. No,
no, no, excuse me, it was Leviticus. And I was
moving from Leviticus into Deuteronomy. And I
caught myself thinking, holy crap, I'm still
reading rules. It dawned on me. that i was still
reading like caveat after caveat after caveat
and when i when when it it kind of hit me that
that's where i was in the middle of this reading
i just kind of gotten lost in in the verbiage
and was just you know reading it as a historical
document not to say that that i wasn't getting
anything spiritual out of it but i mean law after
law after law after law and so on and so forth
i mean can kind of get dry but what i what i
began to realize was oh my gosh, this is absolutely
impossible. And I'm not just talking about following
the law to the letter, but as you mentioned,
the justice that should actually be imputed upon
every breaking of any of those, it's crushing.
You're exactly right. It's a great word for it.
It is absolutely crushing. It should make us
stand and go, There is, there's no point. There's
literally no point to this because I can't, I
can't. Right. Which is again, which is why, again,
the cross is so astronomically important, cosmically
important. Yeah. Because you're right. We can't.
And we could not get back to God. We could not
be righteous in God's sight without the cross,
without Jesus being righteous and then taking
the penalty. Yeah, I love grace. I love mercy.
And I think the more that we as people realize
how much grace and mercy, one, that we need and
that God is willing to bestow on us, I think
the more gracious and merciful. It makes us.
I think that's one of the reasons that I am as
merciful as I am, because I make a lot of mistakes.
Like I, you know, I pull out in front of people
on accident. I'm not. I mean, they don't know
it. They probably like saying some bad things
about me, which I'm like, you know what? I get
upset when people pull out in front of me. Yeah,
that's right. But sometimes like I just I misjudge
the space or whatever, and I don't realize it
until afterwards. And then it's like, you know,
I mess up. I mess up and don't show up for an
appointment, or I show up late. Again, like as
we were talking, as I overslept, I took a nap,
overslept, 15 minutes late for 20 minutes late
for Bible study. And when you're the guy who's
supposed to be leading the Bible study, I'm very
thankful for the people at church who are at
the Bible study who were more concerned for my
well -being, that something might be wrong that
they know about, than they were concerned that
I was late. Yeah. And I felt that. And I felt
that grace, you know, when I got there, humbly
and ashamed. Yeah. Most of us don't want to walk
in and be like, oh, well, you know what? I overslept.
I was taking a nap. And that's why I wasn't here
to do the thing that I'm responsible to be doing.
And, you know, so again, I felt the love for
them. I felt the concern. Again, some lighthearted
ribbing a little bit, which I appreciate. But
again, glad that we're okay. My associate pastor
had texted me and tried to call me. I think that's
what woke me up. Apparently my alarm didn't.
And they texted me, hey, do you need me to lead
Bible study? I can lead if you need me to. And
when I got there, they were just going over prayer
requests. And they just continued. But instead
of feeling... more of the shame which i was feeling
you know i just just felt their their love and
yeah and that grace and their reflection of of
christ said okay hey we're glad you're okay you
know they're more concerned that something you
know had happened or or something and um so but
but i love that and i think well brad when when
you say that like you and tabitha um and and
listeners for those of you that are that that
know um you know that that are familiar with
the show you'll know that that brad and tabitha
in terms of of male female personalities are
the exact opposite of me and shara would you
say that you know because you said that that
that you're the grace and mercy tabitha's the
something injustice what was the other thing
that you said wrath wrath yeah yeah justice and
wrath yeah that's absolutely me but my question
is is So grace and mercy, is that your default
setting? Yeah. And the reason I'm asking that
question is something I'd like to kind of tease
out for our listeners. And I mean me as well,
but for the people that are more like me that
don't have grace as a natural default setting.
When you talk about grace and mercy, as it's
just something that you do because you make a
lot of mistakes. How would you encourage people
to work on that if, in fact, it isn't where they
run to first? Well, I think with the scripture
that you brought out, right, where the splinter
in your brother's eye versus the beam that's
in your own. Right. I think it's being like David
and going to God. Especially in those times more
frustrated with other people. And asking him
to reveal that being. I've told people one of
the fastest ways, in my opinion, to forgive people
is just to go rant to God about them. Go tell
God. And I think sometimes that people don't
do this in their prayer because they're like,
I can't do that. Well, you're missing out. Go
talk to your heavenly father about that. And
if you know you're being unjust, well, that's
going to come out. That's going to come out.
But I will tell you what, in my experience, God
does in those moments. Because I get mad at people,
too. And I get really upset. And I'm heated and
losing my head. And I can't believe that. So
it's not to say that I don't. I have that side.
That's just usually mercy and grace is the bigger
side of me. Right. But when I really get angry
and I go talk to God about it and I go, like,
I can't believe. And that's what I'm thinking.
I can't believe that they did that. I can't think
that they would say that, God. Like, I'm so angry
about that. And like the Holy Spirit will remind
me of something I did two weeks ago. Like, remember
two weeks ago when you. When you said this and
my first inclination was that's different. Yeah.
Right. Because we're really good at justifying
ourself, really good at justifying stuff by our
intentions and judging others by their actions.
Yeah. Right. But we're really good at even justifying
our intentions, even if they're not good. Yes.
But I don't know how many times I've been like,
well, that's different. And I felt like the Holy
Spirit goes, well, not the heart of it. Yeah,
the action was different. And maybe even in an
earthly sense, the other thing was bigger. But
God's calling out, but that's the same heart.
Hey, that splinter, it's the same wood that's
in your eye. And so I think that's where you
go. It's like when you go to God and you go,
hey, I'm really mad. And God doesn't go, oh,
well, you know, hey, they weren't wrong if they
were. But I think mercy shows you that sometimes
you're just as wrong as they were, and maybe
you're a lot easier at forgiving yourself, right,
or justifying yourself. Well, I mean, they made
me mad, and that's why I reacted that way. And
I would say that in the moments of, but I don't
want to retreat to God first, because I'm heated,
and I feel like I have righteous indignation
here, right? If we have righteous indignation
and we don't want to retreat to God, what does
that tell us? Right. It's not righteous. It's
not righteous. Because righteousness likes to
be in the presence of God. Unrighteousness hates
being in the presence of God. So unrighteous
indignation, prideful indignation, sure, self
-centered indignation, yeah. Right. Because God's
going to – I think we know. Even we may not even
cognitively be thinking that, but we know if
I go to God, he's going to make me forgive them.
Stupid Gar. If I go to God, he's going to remind
me, Brad hadn't caught a thing, man. So for me,
it's that going to God, search me and know me,
and I think God will show us. Those things in
ourself. Now, that doesn't justify, right, if
our sin doesn't justify other people's sin. But
what it does is remind us that we both need salvation
through Jesus Christ. We both need that forgiveness.
Yeah. Right? And, I mean, God's pretty serious.
And I think sometimes we skip over this because
we don't like it. But Jesus says very plainly.
Those who have shown no mercy will not receive
mercy. I mean, that's pretty, like, that's huge.
That's, and that's a blanket statement. Like,
that's, you know, I've said it before, Brad,
on the show, I know, but that to me is, I call
it an absolute truth. Like, that's something
that regardless of the situation, there is no
out of context. It's like a John 4 .16 or 14
.6, excuse me, like I am the way, the truth,
and the life. There is no caveat that cancels
or negates that. So yeah, you're exactly right.
That is an absolute truth that stands on its
own two feet no matter how you spin it. And we
certainly don't like it when we're mad at somebody
else or when they need mercy. But grace is different.
See, grace is a step farther. Okay. Mercy is
when we say, I forgive you. Right? That's mercy.
I don't hold this to your charge anymore. Right.
I'm no longer going to hold it against you. That's
mercy. Grace is a whole new ballgame. Like, so
here's the illustration that I heard and I really
like. If one of my kids breaks our rules, right,
and they get grounded, that's justice. Right?
You've broken the rule. Now, if I unground it,
which, again, I typically don't recommend that
you just go unground your kids. You need to stick
with what you say. But let's just say that one
of my kids has done something, and I can see
that they're truly repentant of it, right? That
if they could go back, not just because of the
punishment, but if they could go back, that they
would undo it. They wouldn't do it again. Right.
And I show them mercy. OK, I know I grounded
you for a week. But you're it's been three days.
You're ungrounded. Again, not because of the
oh, I thought the punishment was too harsh. Not
because I'm not sticking with my work is generally
I'm telling you, you need to you need to do what
you say. But because that I can see that you're
repentant, I can I can see that that. All right.
I'm going to show you mercy. That's mercy. You're
no longer grounded. Right. Grace is if I take
them out for ice cream. Right. Let's go get ice
cream. Yeah. Not only are you not getting what
you deserve, but I'm giving you what you don't
deserve. Yeah. You're getting this ice cream.
Not because you did good. You're getting this
ice cream because I love you. And I want ice
cream. I'll take you along. You know, that's
grace. The thought that popped in my mind, and
it actually harkens back to something that you
said about, you were kind of in the middle of
a thought with... uh you know in the middle of
a thought a lot yes yeah it's true but where
you had a you were talking about you know the
beam in your eye and grace and forgiveness um
and basically what what i gleaned from it right
there in that moment was our attitude towards
said person is going to completely change so
when you said you know mercy is saying i forgive
you grace is going a step further in the same
in the same you know biblical text To me, grace
and mercy would be, I have a beam in my eye.
You have a splinter. You're the one who put the
beam in my eye. I'm going to tell you, I forgive
you. That's mercy. I go take the beam out of
my eye and then help you take the splinter out
of yours. That would be grace. The only problem
with that is beams don't come off splinters.
splinters do come off beams. No, that's true.
So, like, the person, I think in the example,
is we're looking at the splinter in the other
eye. That's fair. My dad would say, and he'd
used a 2x4, he'd say, he said, sometimes we've
got to realize that the splinter in our brother's
eye came off the 2x4 in our own. Came off the
2x4 in our own. And I think that's more of the
heart of what Jesus is saying. You see the small
thing in their eye while you've got a big thing
in your own. But, yeah, but I think it's – when
you look at the gospel, right, and you look at
what Christ has done for us and what Christ teaches,
right, he says, do good to those who do bad to
you. Right? I mean, that's a pretty reoccurring
thing. And that's the gospel, right? We didn't
do good to God. We brought God bad when he gave
us good. And so – and then he's going to give
us good instead of bad. But that's – Counter
to our mind, right? Mercy is, it's almost like,
wasn't mercy big enough, God? God doesn't say,
just don't do bad to those who do bad to you.
Right. Because that's mercy, when you don't do
bad to them, right? When you don't retaliate,
yeah. Yeah. But God goes, give them grace. Take
them out for ice cream. But God, did you not
see what they did? Romans 5 .8. Gosh. Right?
Romans 5 .8. I think there's probably some people
I need to take out for ice cream. Yeah. I'll
have to wrestle with that. Anyway. Yeah. I love
it and hate it when God hits me like that. Yeah.
for, for, for the listeners that are unaware,
maybe, maybe you don't know the scripture reference
right off hand. It's just one of the, one of
the scripture verses that I decided a while ago,
this is probably one that I need to, I personally
need to memorize, but Romans five, eight just
simply says, um, for God demonstrated his great
love for us in that while we were still sinners,
Christ died for us. Um, and, and that right there,
I mean, while we were walking around with two
by fours in our eyes whether we whether we knew
they were there or not christ died for us um
but yeah so uh let's let's turn the conversation
a bit to i want to i want to kind of prime the
pump brad um with with um uh like a a multi -series
show uh or topic multi series topic that, that
I want to do in the, in the near, very near future.
But it specifically does relate to men. And my
question to you is regarding grace versus justice.
Yeah. Do you feel that guys just across the board
are, are good? are are are vanilla regular mediocre
at best or bad at providing grace in the church
not just and and i mean that could that could
mean to each other but just is it is it something
that is demonstrated demonstrative within church
culture do guys do that well hmm that's that's
a big question It is. On some level, I think
it depends person to person. Right. Because there's
definitely people that are, again, more interested
toward grace and others toward justice. By the
way, I think we need each other. I think that's
why Tabby and I are a good fit. I think that's
why Sharon and you are a good fit. Yes. Because
I'm going to tend to err on grace, and sometimes
that is problematic. Yeah. I know that's not
the question you asked. No, no, no. I think we
all struggle with godly grace and mercy, even
if we're in tune to mercy and grace. Okay. Right?
So I don't know. Gosh, I don't know how to answer
the question, DJ, because there's so many thoughts
going through my mind. Sometimes I think we show
too much grace, right? Because someone molested
a child in church. Right. And we're like, well,
we're Christians. We got to forgive them. Yes,
we need to forgive them. But we also do not let
them near our children. That's right. Yeah. Like
there is forgiveness and there's trust. Right.
Sometimes we confuse the two. So, yes, we forgive
them. But also in forgiving them, that doesn't
mean that we don't have them go through justice
in the system. Yeah. Right. Because I think,
oh, well, let's just push it under the rug. No,
we shouldn't do that either. We can forgive them
and still have them go through the justice system
and get justice. And we don't need to just put
those things in a rug. And I think that's one
of the things in the church that sometimes we
give grace and mercy in ways that we shouldn't.
You know, I think that's causes people who are
predators. To go toward the church in some ways,
act the part of a believer. Right. And pray,
because even if I get caught, you know, I'm going
to find grace. And that's not the way God gives
grace. Right. God says he will not be mocked.
What a man sows, he shall also reap. Right. So
you have to come humbly to God. In repentance
to receive his mercy and his grace. Yeah. Right.
So I've had people to be upset when I wouldn't
help them in some way that they wanted. And one
of the first things that those people tend to
do is lash out that I'm being un -Christian and
I'm being unbiblical and all this stuff. You
have to help me. We're not reading the same book.
Yeah. Right. That's not what it says. I am gracious
and merciful. But I'm not supposed to be gracious
and merciful if you are continuing to be, you
know, like if you're coming in and attacking.
Right. And you're thinking that I can't stand
against you because I have to be gracious and
merciful. Then you misunderstand mercy and grace.
Right. Yeah. Because it's my job to make sure
that. And I've had situations where there were
people that I would, and I don't say this lightly
and I won't mention any names, were wolves. And
they found out that this guy who loves grace
and mercy, who would love to show them grace
and mercy, had to give them justice because they
were just trying to continuously prey on sheep.
right and as an under shepherd like that's not
how it works so i like it's so hard dj for me
it is hard you know and i i don't know that there
is a a clear cut and and nice answer i i was
i i'm i'm glad that that that you're that you're
you know acknowledging that the that the water's
struggling with your question yeah i know well
here's the thing like Again, I'm really glad
that you're saying that it's too hard to answer
because I think it'll help us as long as we're
willing to kind of, you know, at least certainly
pull on our own experiences, whether as adults
or coming up to the church or even testimonies.
I know, and maybe I'm projecting here, but I
have an experience where, or I have experiences
where... And men are either apathetic entirely
within the church. I can't speak outside of the
church. No idea. But within the church, just
let things play out. You know, who cares? Just
move on. People will get over stuff. Or they
are. They, they pick and choose when to be gracious
and merciful. As long as it, as long as it is
something that, as long as it's something that
like falls within their own. Or someone. Or someone.
Misappropriating grace and mercy and justice.
It's like the movie The Untouchables. You ever
see that with Kevin Costner? Way back in the
late 80s, early 90s, there was this movie that
was created where I want to say they're basically
U .S. Marshals that went after Al Capone. They
were called The Untouchables because they did
things that were above the law. they had protection
right they they actually had governmental protection
and so to me i would be willing to say that that
with when you say you know it you could do this
or that with said person it's because you know
this is a stalwart human being in our in our
church's charter okay right fine but but but
like so they deserve more no they don't no absolutely
no but i mean that's that's right i'm with you
yeah versus versus the 16 year old that got pregnant
And now we're going to crucify her. Right, yeah,
yeah. That's when excommunications come in. Because
I'm going to be honest. Like, I think that the
church, all right, here's this young girl, and
I think there's a baby, and we're saying that
the baby is important to us too, and then we
ought to act like it. Right. It is a gift from
God, even if the situation, the scenario was
not, even though it came out of sin, but hey.
We're not going to ostracize her. We're going
to, yes, there is repentance that should be done
on her part. Right. But we're not repenting for
the baby and we're celebrating the baby. I think
we ought to do more baby showers for unwed mothers.
A hundred percent. Yeah. I love that idea, dude.
That's because yeah, you're exactly right. That
absolutely falls in. That absolutely falls into
the grace versus justice category. Now, I think
it'd be really easy for the conversation to get
really convoluted because, as you mentioned,
because of all of the moving variables that are
really unmentionable, it's almost like at the
theoretical, hypothetical and theoretical stratosphere.
But I do want to say this. I would argue that
And let's just use this as kind of low -hanging
fruit right now. We've got the teenager that's
pregnant. She's unwed. She is deciding to keep
the baby. I would be willing to say that if a
man or men pushed for the church to do a baby
shower, I have a hard time seeing that not happening.
Does that make sense? the church would not in
some way make, make an accommodation in, you
know, and, and reach out as, you know, using
these as a ministry opportunity, whatever you
want to call it, however you want to, however
you want to view that. I do see personally, and,
and if there, if there's listeners, if there's
anybody out there that, that doesn't like the
idea of, of, and I gotta be really careful here.
that like women are less. This is not where I'm
headed because I completely and unbelievably
disagree with that idea. But I definitely think
that there are leadership characteristics that
men just naturally have. We're called to lead.
We are. We're called to lead. We're called to
lead. Yeah, I'm not trying to push an agenda
when I say that. But I think that specifically
my own experience in church situations, if a
woman comes forward and says, there is this particular
pregnant teen, and I want to do a baby shower
for her, it's not going to hit as hard to the
church. as if there's a guy up there saying,
this needs to happen. And I think we should both.
No, no, no, you're exactly right. Thank you for
that, Brad. Thank you for that. Yes, I'm not
trying to discredit that. And that's why I wanted
to ask the question from the perspective. Of
course, most guys I know go like, we should do
this, but can I please not come? Right. I don't
really want to. Baby showers and wedding showers
and all that. I totally think we should do it.
I will help set up and tear down, but I'm going
to go golfing while this goes on. I'm going to
go golfing. Brad's going to go catfishing. Then
we'll come back and we'll tear everything down.
We're good. Was it great? I hope it was great.
I think that's okay on some level. There's guys
out there probably like, no, I want to go. Make
the cake. Dude, you would have made the cake
years ago. And that would have been a banging
cake, man. I made the cake, but I prefer not
to still be there. Don't prefer those things.
But anyway, right. So let me turn a curve too,
though. Okay. Typically. I want to say 100 %
because, but typically the people that come expecting
grace and mercy are the people that probably
need justice. And the people that come expecting
justice are the people that need grace and mercy.
Dude, that right there. So that right there is
the tax collector banging on his chest saying,
please forgive me for I'm a sinner. Right. The
Pharisee or whatever going. I'm so glad I'm not
like that guy. That's exactly right. Yes. And
I think about Nicodemus and then I think about
the woman at the well. So often it's like John
3 and then John 4. Like boom, boom, boom, boom.
And there's God, you know, Jesus shares the gospel
with both of them, but it's different. Because
Nicodemus, like he brings him down. You're a
ruler, you know, you're a teacher of Israel and
you don't know these things? You need to be born
again. And then the woman at the well who is
debased and all of this stuff, who is ashamed,
he's drawing her up and bringing her out. And
I think it's beautiful, this picture that they're
at a well. And that's what he does. He draws
her up out of the darkness. But I think that's
that picture. Because one of the things... that
will make me upset. And sometimes I'll still
have to go to, you know, I have to go to God
with, with my attitude is when people want to
tell me that I have to give them grace and mercy.
I don't think that's what you need right now.
Right. Like, yeah, you have to do, I can show
you where Paul says that, that, and this, this,
this, that you don't meet this, this, this criteria.
Right. And so, no, you know, and, and, I had
somebody send me a very nasty text message, you
know, correcting me and, you know, all this.
I'll clean up the language next time. Yeah, well,
and sometimes what I have to do with those text
messages is not reply. Yeah, no, it's exactly
right. Because, I mean, like, you understand
clearly that that wick is attached to a stick
of dynamite. Why blow? Right. I mean, don't light
it because that's exactly. God has given us wisdom.
Yes. And again, I try to pray in those situations
because there's sometimes when you do need to
respond and there's sometimes when, right, you
don't. Right. It's a trap. Yeah. It's a trap.
It's a trap. I watched that the other night,
by the way. That is no moon. So, Brad, let's
go ahead and wrap this up because my computer
battery just let me know that it's about to die.
But we're right about time anyways. So, listeners,
thank you so much for hanging out with us. Thank
you for listening in to me and Brad talking as
best we could, clearly off the cuff, but as best
we could about mercy or grace and justice. I
know that this is a very hot topic. It's almost
like a gaslight topic. But it needs to be said.
It needs to be had. And again, in the very near
future, be looking for a multi -show series where
we talk about grace. Um, maybe Grayson and men
is, I mean, seriously, it's going to be pretty
amazing. It's going to be pretty amazing. Yeah.
Um, amazing grace, right? Yeah. I'm there. I
got it. Yeah. It took me a second. Um, but, uh,
we are definitely going to be doing some multi
-part series, um, because chat GPT said that
we should, um, But Brad, dude, it has been a
breath of fresh air to do this again with you,
man. And listeners, a couple things real quick.
Number one, also be on the lookout in the future.
Brad and I had such a fun time speaking with
John Kirkendall that we are going to open up
the line in the future to bringing in more guests.
And also, remember, there is a right now a live
and an active submission still going on for funny
or crazy church stories. Please let us know.
Send us an email, menchurchstuff at gmail .com.
Send us your funny church story, crazy church
story, even if it's not yours, but you love telling
it or you love hearing it. Let us know. We're
going to do an episode strictly on funny church
stories. Last thing. um is that there is very
soon going to be a website that's going to go
live still working on it but um brad share has
actually said that it looks really good so that
makes me feel good well dj he said i'm still
waiting on brad to send me all of this stuff
that is correct to send me that is correct so
that you know so i'm gonna guess i'm gonna guess
brad within the next two to three weeks there
will be a website that'll go white that'll go
live But listeners, you know what to do. Follow
us on our Facebook group page and our Instagram.
Engage with us. Please connect with us. Talk
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But get involved and share the show with people
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that, Brad, I love you, man. I love you, too.
Listeners, we love you, and we will catch you
next time. Yeah, go be his church.