Welcome, this is the Men Church Stuff Podcast.
This is the show where brothers -in -law DJ Culp
and Brad Coleman talk about stuff from our perspective
as men. It's a show for anyone who wants to hear
how Christians interact with the world. And don't
worry, we're real. We've grown up in church,
and we want to share our experiences with you.
We'll talk life stuff, church stuff, man stuff,
and stuff stuff. Here we go. Greetings, listeners
here and there and everywhere all across the
land. This is the Mentor Stuff Podcast. I am
one of your hosts, DJ Culp. As always, here with
my beloved brother -in -law, Brad Coleman. Brad,
what's up, man? Hey, I am celebrating a wonderful
week fishing. Yeah, you definitely are, dude.
And our first official guest on our show. First
interview. This is episode 95. And so, listeners,
we've got Mr. John Kirkendall. It is Mr., or
is it? Reverend. It was yesterday. it was yesterday
okay yeah oh are you reverend reverend brother
pastor mister the right reverend the reverend
dr john bishop bishop john i'm the bishop of
hillsborough are you a bishop okay that's fair
i'm a fan of i'm a fan of like making a mockery
of the whole like traditional uh uh like prefix
and so yeah if it's like a if it's a pastor i
prefer i prefer like mr brother reverend pastor
and then the person there you go but all of those
things together yeah put them all together that's
right dude so if you're a bishop then you get
mr mr mr brother reverend pastor bishop john
so yeah i just have to put i have to shorten
all those up for the uh business card um but
yeah so brad you're right dude episode 95 we've
got our first interview here um but uh uh listeners
we will update you um in in due time about our
fishing trip for sure because as brad called
it it was his week of validation and vindication
was it ever like yeah so um but uh yeah our our
special guest is uh mr john kirkendall um and
john has um has written a book And let me get
to that title. The book is entitled, John, I
can't get there fast enough. It is Beyond the
Shadows, A Theology of Suffering and Hope. And
it's backwards, but you got to get it right.
Beyond the Shadows. That's right. Yeah. Theology
of Suffering and Hope. Excellent. And I know,
Brad, why don't you do this for our listeners?
I know that you and John have some history. So
if you would, just kind of brief us on how you
and John know each other. Well, we've been a
part of the same association. And we were briefly
in a group that, I don't know what happened to
that. I guess that program kind of fell apart.
We were kind of getting together as pastors.
But, you know, we've got to know each other a
little bit. through kind of some teams we've
been on and just, again, pastor in the same association.
And of course, I've read his book, which I enjoyed.
I'm sorry, I have not. It was good. Took some
good notes. And again, I think one of the things
that I want to just point out as we get started
is one of the things I like, John, is in your
introduction, you talk about how that this book,
although it's theology, like you don't want to
ostracize the people that maybe have a different
or slightly different understanding of some,
that you want this to be a book of hope and help
as they're going through suffering. And I really
appreciate that because, you know, obviously
even as Baptists, like we tend to agree on a
lot of the major points, but But even within
just the Southern Baptist, there's a lot of understandings
of difference. We tend to be very polemical.
So I just really appreciated you kind of starting
out there of like, hey, I'm not so much trying
to write a textbook. I'm trying to help those
who are struggling through suffering. And why
are we struggling? And if Jesus loves us, why
is there still struggle? Amen. So, John, and
again, I'm sorry, I haven't read the book. I
have read the intro. And I do remember that you
kind of gave sort of the acknowledgement that
you had seen this big disparity kind of in there's
not a lot of material that discusses more of
like the practical application of how does a
person work through this kind of stuff. on your
behalf for even, I mean, really having the courage
and the boldness, because I'm sure that I've
heard it. I've heard it said a bunch that anybody
can write a book. The issue with that statement
is that not everybody does. And so what was it
that kind of, that kind of got you into the mindset
of I'm going to do this? Sure. Well, to be honest,
I never imagined I would write a book on this
topic. I had always wanted to write a book and
to be honest, The book I always wanted to write
was a book about legalism. And I may do that
at some point. Are you for or against it? I'm
for it, brother. The more stuff we can do against
the better. But, you know, I was in a legalistic
environment and I used to joke that we made stuff
up to be against. And I may write that at some
point that I haven't written it yet, because
I think to deal with that subject appropriately,
you need to deal with legalism, antinomianism,
which is the other side and the gospel. But at
any rate, I have a good friend who is. a godly
man the lord has done a wonderful work in his
life and it's a joy to watch him grow in his
faith and witnesses all the time just a tremendous
brother and he he leans charismatic and i'm pretty
sure he claims that title um so i don't think
i'm calling him that in any disparaging way he
he is a charismatic sure and so we're good friends
and he and his family will come over to the house
on occasion and on some of those times that he
came we began to talk about suffering and primarily
the role of suffering in our life why believers
suffer what role does god have in our suffering
is god sovereign over our suffering is there
a purpose is is suffering something that the
devil is always doing to us or is it that when
we suffer it's because we're missing something
yeah and and he and i because i'm eileen reformed
in my theology and he's charismatic you can imagine
we diverge on that point sure had a lot to talk
about yeah yeah and um and some of the things
he said I don't think I'd ever heard articulated
that way, and I'm sure probably some of the things
I said he hadn't heard a whole lot of. But at
any rate, after he left, I told my wife that
I have to confess I've never spent a great deal
of time preaching on this subject at church.
It's just not, and not many people do. And I
decided, you know what, this needs to be a topic
that we address not only to prepare people who
are suffering, but to give people answers for
when the skeptic or someone comes asking about
suffering. So I began it as a Sunday night series
at church and then decided to manuscript the
sermon so that I could turn it into a book. And
that's what I did. It turned out to be a lot
more work than I expected. The premise behind
the book. That's awesome. So when I'm thinking
kind of like about what you were just saying,
the first thing really that popped into my mind
in terms of is this kind of what you're trying
to address? Or is this a part anyways of what
you're trying to address? When my wife and I...
um she was she was ready to have um she was really
close to having um having birth with our first
her her brother died um suddenly of an aortic
aneurysm and he's 20 he was 20 years old um that's
a day that's a day that will live in infamy in
my memory for sure absolutely not not cool at
all but um what i do remember is kind of this
um it's like a i'm gonna call it a spiritual
anecdote if you don't if you will um that a lot
of people were saying you know this that god's
plan is god's plan and there's nothing to do
to change it granted i agree with that but in
terms of how the family right with the loss is
this kind of is this kind of like the approach
like what like what do we do with this this area
of the suffering whether whether it's this tragic
or not right suffering that we're going to deal
with is as real as it actually is no matter what
kind of no matter what kind of positive christianly
or whatever type of narrative they were trying
to feed into it sure is that is that kind of
is that kind of the one of the areas that you
that you're trying to get trying to hit Yeah,
yeah. How do we approach suffering? Why does
it happen? And what do we do with it? What does
Scripture say about suffering? Because as Brad
said already, you can't address the subject without
speaking to theology. But at the same time, for
example, I was at... home yesterday where a church
member had died and a wonderful lady had lost
her husband and children had lost their father
and all those things. But you don't go into a
situation like that and say, well, that's the
Lord's plan. You've got to roll with it. We've
all heard people say that. But that is one thing
to embrace the theology, but it's another thing
to say, okay, What now? What do I do with this?
Dave Evans, who was the former pastor at Pilgrim's
Rest before I came, he was here almost 10 years.
Several of the church members have told me that
he used to say, when you go through something,
don't ask why, ask what. And I actually mentioned
that in the book. And I think that's very appropriate.
So in the book, I try to obviously pull from
scriptural examples, pull from some of my own.
and others to show that this is what the Bible
says. God is sovereign. He does have a plan.
He's not a cosmic clockwinder. He's not aloof.
He's not separated from us in our sorrow, but
rather he identifies with us in our sorrow. And
though we don't always see it now, he does have
a plan and he does all things for our good and
his glory and trying to give them tools to cope
with those things. Sure. And one of the things
that I wrote down just on that subject from your
book was, and I don't remember if this is a direct
quote or just the idea that I got, but the technical
truth can be hurtful when presented callously,
DJ can fix that, in times of tragedy. Yeah, absolutely.
And that sounds like it's probably from probably
the second or third chapter, I would say. But
yeah, it's true. You've heard people say that
a lot. A lot of times when we're with someone
who is suffering, I think oftentimes things are
sad that aren't helpful. And oftentimes we feel
like we have to say something. And more often
than not, that's for our benefit rather than
theirs. Right. Yeah. Yeah. This moment is awkward
right now. And so I'm going to try to actually
appease it myself. Yeah. But Job's friends were
the best help when they were just there. Right.
Yeah. When they kept their mouth shut. Yeah.
Right. Not their opinions, but yeah. Oh, man,
those guys are some. Of course, you can't beat
them up too much. You know, these guys are doing
theology and they don't have the written revelation.
Right. That's true. Essentially, all their theology
was natural theology. I mean, if you don't have
the Bible, it might be a logical conclusion that,
well, obviously you're suffering because God's
mad at you. Right. And God doesn't condemn them
in the end, right? He corrects them through Job.
He says, hey, you offer a sacrifice. And if Job
accepts it, then I will. Yeah. You know, so it's
kind of a correction, not a condemnation. Right.
But the reality is there are a lot of people
that go through life all the time, fearful that
God's angry with them. Every time they suffer,
they wonder what they've done. Has God angry
with me? And sometimes, you know, 1 Corinthians
11 is an indication, and the book of James is
an indication in chapter 5. And I deal with that
as well, that suffering does come from sin. But
a lot of Scripture gives us examples of people
who are living right and in God's will, and they
suffer for His glory. Well, I mean, Jesus, right?
Jesus was sinless, yet he suffered. Well, and
even coming back to Job, I mean, right? The last
sort of final conversation that Job has with
God, he says himself, you know, God, before this,
I knew about you. Yeah. So like, you know, and
so John, just in the exact same light, I mean,
what was Job doing? He was clearly just not doing
anything. He was a guy minding his own business,
doing his life and living it very well, apparently.
But again, through the process of suffering,
as I like to call it, like the royal smackdown
that God gives Job at the end of the book, even
though to, I think certainly to our like i know
it's i know it's really rooted in kind of like
almost almost ethics but i think just our cause
and effect culture that we live in as you mentioned
you know like why why is this happening i don't
know sure right but but the fact is that it is
happening so don't try to seek that seek out
the cause i think in in our cause and effect
way that we're looking at it we are like we're
trying to we try to figure out what is the origin
of this when in actuality, it may have just simply
been God bringing us closer to him. Right. And
I think Job was a wonderful illustration of that.
And to the extent that suffering can give me
a better glimpse of the Savior. and a better
knowledge of who I am and draw me into his presence
and assist me in growing in Christ likeness,
then I can confess that that suffering was a
good thing for me. Right. So. I don't know necessarily,
John, how much you know about me specifically.
So I've got a doctorate in music education from
the University of Mississippi. And so I've not
written a book, at least in the formal fashion
that you have, like through a publisher and whatnot.
But as someone who's just written a dissertation,
I've got a question that I can very much empathize
with. Was it hard as you were writing this? Was
it hard? And if so, Could you tell us maybe which
chapters or which concepts? Was it hard to flesh
out your own thoughts, beliefs, and feelings
as a writer? It was hard. It was harder than
I anticipated. My initial thought process was,
well, I preach from an outline. My outlines are
about 2 ,000 words, sometimes as much as 2 ,500
words. And so I thought, you know, if I manuscript
a sermon, then that's going to be between four
and five thousand words. So that's not a lot
more work. It was a lot more work. Yeah. And
the hardest part was organizing the thoughts
and knowing what to say and how much to say.
You know. Because you don't want to just go information
overload. You don't want to nerd out on one particular
idea. And so narrowing it down and keeping the
book focused was the difficult part. And even
then, the editor, the publisher, trimmed it down
some. For example, the section on sovereignty.
I really wanted to go after the skeptics on that
one and be very polemical on that. But and to
an extent, that's good. But if you're writing
a book to help people who are suffering, you
need to be wise about how much of that you put
in there. So the chapter on sovereignty was difficult
just to kind of narrow everything down. And I
would say. A little bit of the same measure when
I wrote the chapter on Paul's thorn in the flesh
to discipline myself not to spend an inordinate
amount of time talking about what Paul's thorn
was. And then again, the last chapter. I love
that. It's one of the things when you said that
you brought up in the book, something that I
hadn't really meshed out in my own psyche, which
was. That we would assume, and I'm paraphrasing,
of course, that we would assume that Paul would
have been more effective without his thorn in
the flesh. Yes. I mean, wouldn't you know, he
prayed that way? That's exactly right. Yeah.
But obviously God knew better, you know, so it's
kind of a false assumption on their part. And
I thought about myself who, again, I deal with
ADHD. And you have no hair? Yeah, I have no hair.
Dude, you're rocking it today, by the way, man.
I'm sorry. I didn't mention that. But, you know,
sometimes the way my brain works, sometimes I
get frustrated because I get almost in these
brain locks where I'm like, gosh, if I could
just not get stuck here, how much more I could
do. And I think that really spoke to me. It also
reminded me like my dad. I remember one time
I was probably about 16, 17 years old. I was
frustrated with the way my brain works and all
this stuff. And my dad was like, well, that's
your intellect. And I was like, well, if it's
my intellect, I just wish God would make me stupid.
And my dad, I just remember him just like. very
lovingly but fervently pointing his finger and
going, don't you ever curse your intellect. Don't
you ever curse what God has given you. That's
wonderful. God has made you with the mind he's
given you for reason and purpose. So don't curse
that. And Paul kind of acknowledges that when
God just goes, no, I'm not going to take it.
Yeah. He goes, all right, then I'll just. I very
Pauline that I will just celebrate and worship
in my weakness. That's right. Yeah. The underlying
assumption, we would never say it, but the underlying
assumption when we feel that way is that we are
somehow wiser than God. Yeah. And we're not,
no, not even close. I told him the other day
at church, I said, look, I would make a horrible
savior. I can't even save myself. Amen to that.
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So like to, to, to that, you
know, the, the, the Paul's thorn, I think I was,
I'm going to say I was an adult, certainly in
the last maybe seven years where I've begun to
hear this stated, but the more that I have really
kind of thought about whether it be, you know,
in, in Paul's perspective or in my own, in my
own life with, with you know, struggles. What
is it exactly that would, I mean, really, and
kind of, John, this is, for me anyways, this
is kind of addressing the why, though it's obviously
completely speculation, but kind of grounding
it in the idea that it is true that Paul's ministry
was better because the thorn was there. Right.
It began to really get me to focus in on You
know, as Christians who are suffering and as
we suffer, sometimes more, sometimes less, right?
I mean, it's just kind of the nature of life.
As we go through sufferings and we clearly don't
want to, it's not just why does it happen? What
do we do with it? But are we even willing in
the, and I would be willing to say that for me,
certainly not in the. in the moments where I'm
not suffering, but in the moments where I am,
am I willing to retreat to God to say, all right,
so clearly there is something that is going on
here where God has an open door somewhere for
me to run to him. And I think that with Paul,
Brad and I have had conversations in the past.
It's my contention that Paul is one of the most
arrogant, egotistical writers, not in a negative
way, but I mean, like... He knows who he is.
He knows who he is, right? James is blunt. James
is blunt, but he doesn't have the reputation
that Paul does as an author. And so when I read
Paul, I hear somebody who says, look, you can
argue with me all the live long day. I know what
I'm going to say, and I'm pretty sure I know
what you're going to say too. Well, he does that.
He's like, man, here's the argument you're going
to make. Here's why it's terrible. Yeah, it's
like C .S. Lewis before C .S. Lewis, right? Right,
yeah. And so for me, I've kind of come to the
conclusion that if Paul had not had that thorn,
he may very well have made his bed in his own
reputation. Well, he even said, lest I be lifted
up with pride. And that's the reality. And all
of us are prideful to one extent or another.
And just like you said, we're not often. willing
to run to god during times of suffering we want
to feel sorry for ourselves and oftentimes we're
slow to have the right response at least i am
no and i think that's as human as human gets
you know like i mean Coming back to Job, how
long is Job? Like 40 some odd chapters, isn't
that right? Like 42, I think. Yeah, so it takes
Job 40 chapters to get there. So I think it's
absolutely human for us to not want the suffering,
like to get out of it. Brad, I'm going to bring
this back, man. This has become, John, one of
the things that Brad had mentioned, and I want
to say it was in our Psalm 23 episode. Listeners,
if you're new to the show, go check out Psalm
23. It's a fantastic show. Anyways, one of the
things that Brad mentioned to me that has never
left, and Brad, I actually went back and thought,
okay, is this really in there? I wonder if Brad
misquoted. So let me go find it. And sure enough,
there it was, where the promise of God through
David is that God will... God will set a table
before us in the presence of our enemies. So
in the framework of the valley of the shadow
of death, we're in the valley when he sets the
table. He didn't wait to set the table until
we get out. And so I think that kind of coming
back into this whole conversation, the idea that
we just simply want to get out of suffering,
the very human trait of that, I think it's incredibly
valid. Nobody enjoys it. But if we do, are we
in fact risking missing any table that God has
set before us to, again, bring us back or bring
us closer or whatever, refine our faith, whatever
the case is? I think that's very true. I heard
a Christian apologist, and I forget who it was,
but he said that if you had God's power, you
would likely change a lot of things. But if you
had his wisdom, you would keep them all the same.
And I think that's true because we, as pastors,
and Brad, you know this as well, we've seen people
go through suffering. And if we had the ability,
we would remove that. But if we did, we're robbing
them of something. that god is doing in them
and through them that maybe they won't even know
until they reach glory yeah well i you know murphy
one of the things that i've done a lot of funerals
we've had a lot of funerals i i remember times
just begging god let us be done for a while i
mean it was just like we were losing so many
people so many amazing saints that it was just
like and i remember walking out of the hospital
once with with another one who was just you know
it was It was very evident that if God didn't
intervene, they were soon going to go home. And
they did. I remember walking out of the hospital
and just praying and like, God, I tell people
sometimes I don't have a magic wand. Amen. You
know, I don't have a magic wand. But I was like,
you know, I really wish that I did. I really
wish you just let me. You know, and I feel like
the Spirit put this question on my heart. It
was, Brad, who would you let die? Who would you
let die? Dude, that's Gandalf right there. And
I'm like, I mean, that's Gandalf and Frodo. Yeah,
you got me. You shall not pass. You got me. Again,
and the reality of that is I would be keeping
those saints from their eternity in glory. Right.
Not Jesus. I'm keeping them away from Jesus.
Yeah. You know, and it's like, okay, all right.
And, you know, when God. God loves to ask good
questions. After the scripture, he asks questions.
And when God asks you a question, he's not looking
for the answer for him. He's helping you get
to the answer for you. And it's just like, you
just got to be like Job and go, you got me. You
got me. It's not an open forum. You don't have
to debate him. No, no, no. Wouldn't take long.
Wouldn't take long. Yeah, no kidding. So, John,
regarding, and how many chapters are in your
book? Is it 10? Eight or nine. Let me check.
I think it's, you know, I wrote it. I ought to
know. Don't worry, man. If you were to ask me.
I'm too bad now because I read it and I didn't
remember. Eight chapters. Eight chapters. You
know, I wanted it to be accessible and wanted
people to be able. to read it, especially people
who don't read. And pardon me while I sip a box.
No, dude, you're good, man. You're very good.
They're not an official promoter of our show,
of our sponsor. But Bart's Root Beer, I mean,
we're open to it. It's one of the few root beers
that has caffeine, so I appreciate that. But
yeah, my dad read the book and he has, you know,
he's very open. He's not a reader. The book is
about 130 pages. And even with the typesetting
and all that, it's really not a long book. Very
accessible, very easy to get through. And that
was one of my goals. You know, Zig Ziglar said
that when he wrote a book that he tried to write
it on, I think, a third grade reading level.
So even the college professors could understand.
No, I think it's impossible to read a Zig Ziglar
book and not hear his voice. You can make this
sale. You feel like he's talking to you when
you're reading it. Yeah, he was very good at
what he did. Yes, absolutely. Well, well, John,
what, what would you say was the hardest part
to write? Now, when I say hard, I'm really more
thinking about not, not like technically, but
I'm thinking more about like spiritually or emotionally.
What, what was the, what was the part that was
hard for you to wrestle with? Really? Probably
the last chapter, no more here. Because it reminds
me of suffering that I've seen. Reminds me of,
you know, my mother passed away in 02. So you
can't write a book like that and not be mindful
of the suffering that your mother went through.
She went through cancer, had a son, my little
brother, who is severely autistic. And I can
tell you some stories about him someday. It'll
change your life. But just the battles that she
went through and died about a month shy of her
52nd birthday. Yeah. And I was very close to
my mom and just never ready for that. So when
I was writing that chapter, I was mindful of
that. Yeah. And of course, I had no way of knowing
that. after i submitted the book to the publisher
that my mother -in -law would die as well and
only 65 so my wife has struggled and still struggles
to some extent through that so yeah that's probably
not just in that chapter but in other chapters
i was reminded of my mom and that's always yeah
you know there's joy there because you're reminded
of what a wonderful mother you had but there's
also a sorrow there that You miss her. It's been
a long time since she's passed. Right. And one
of the things that I love, again, the scripture,
and I've shared a lot of funerals out of Thessalonians
where God says, you know, we do not grieve like
those who have no hope. But I point out, it doesn't
say we don't grieve. It just says we don't grieve
in that way. We don't grieve without hope. We
grieve with hope. And again, that biblical hope,
which is that assurity that, you know, they belong
to Christ. They're with her. Amen. And you're
right. Sorrow is a natural part of life. And
our Savior knows what it is to sorrow. And that's
why one of the reasons I put that chapter in
the book, does Jesus care? Yeah. Because he does,
and he knows exactly what it is to suffer. Yeah.
More so than any of us, actually. And I love,
too, the reality, like with Jesus in the garden,
right? Jesus is asking the Father. You know,
if there's another way, let's do it that way.
Again, I'm severely paraphrasing there, but,
you know, he's... That's the message. I mean,
that's what he means, yeah. Yeah, but... Do we
have to do this? But not my will, yours. Which
I think is a beautiful gift to us as believers.
Because sometimes we get the idea that, oh, I
should just be like, oh, I'm suffering. Yay.
Right. It's okay. And see, to me, Brad, that's
the issue that I dealt with. And I was one of
the ones who was, you know, coming back to the
passing of my wife's brother. This is one of
the issues that even I began to deal with after
kind of the dust settled emotionally for me that
I had, I'm not going to say bought it because
I know it was true. I mean, God's sovereign.
I knew it was true that Adam's death was planned
by God. And if there's a skeptic listening to
this, don't take that for what you think that
it might mean. But the issue that I began to
deal with was I started, I was saying, you know,
Yeah, it's tragic, but God has a plan. And I
remember thinking, how insensitive of my own
feelings am I actually being? I'm not facing
the fact that, Brad, it is absolutely okay to
grieve. It is a hundred percent. Okay. It is
a hundred percent. Okay. To get on your knees
and pound the ground and say, why the heck did
this happen? Like, you know, like, and I think,
I think far too often in, in I'll say in evangelical
culture, there's, and I can't pinpoint why maybe,
maybe either one of you have, you know, might
have some insight in this, but I can't pinpoint
why, but it seems like there is this unwritten
type of philosophy. where when bad things happen,
Christians still need to display the kind of
joy that they had yesterday before the bad thing
happened. Yeah. Jesus didn't walk into the Garden
of Gethsemane going, dude, I'm ready. I'm ramped.
Can't wait to go to a cross. Can't wait to be
nailed to a cross and suffer and die. I'm going
to get beaten. You're like, no. Right. And I
think sometimes we misinterpret people like Paul.
who goes, all right, then I'll celebrate kind
of my weakness. I think we mistake joy and happiness.
We get them mixed up. Joy is so much deeper and
truer and more substantial than happiness ever
thought about. Happiness is emotion. You can
have joy when you are bound up, having been beaten.
Probably not very comfortable, probably either
too hot or too cold in a prison cell while you're
singing praises to God. Because joy, I think,
is against the understanding of that truth and
then the emotions that go with it. But you don't
have to feel happy. And I think you don't have
to feel happy to worship. Amen. Matter of fact,
sometimes I think some of the more truer worship
that we can give to God is when we feel the opposite
of happy. Like we're sad, we're depressed, we're
discouraged. But we still go, you know, and again,
I look at David in the Psalm, I think it's Psalm
13, when he's basically like, are you going to
forget me forever, God? Right. It's exactly right.
Yeah, those are, and I tell you, I can't, I honestly,
now I've forgotten, I can't remember if I put
this in the book or not, but talking about worshiping
in the midst of suffering, a memory that's etched
into my mind forever. is after my mother breathed
her last breath. And thankfully, me and my siblings
and our spouses were all able to be there around
her bedside. And she breathed her last breath.
And my dad got up, walked out of the bedroom,
into the hallway. And I heard him through tears
pray, Oh, Father, we know you do all things well.
And I mean, that that my dad, I think he gave
me a bigger gift right there than he realizes.
Yeah. Because like you said, DJ, it's one thing
to say, yeah, that's what the Bible says. But
when you're in the middle of suffering. Yeah.
Then it becomes when it gets difficult. Yeah.
Well, and again, one of the things that, because
I think you did mention that book because it
sounds familiar to me. God is not in heaven wringing
his hands and drinking Maalox. Amen. That was
one of my favorite quotes in the book. I wrote
that down. I starred it in my notes. Awesome.
Put that in the bulletin next week. Yeah. There's
your title for a sermon. There you go. Easy.
He's not asleep at the switch. He knows exactly
what he's doing. I love the script. Some of my
favorite scripts are very simple. And God remembered
Noah. And God remembered Abraham. Because when
I realized that God is not like us, right? When
I remember where I put my keys, it's because
I forgot. You had previously not known where
you knew. Yeah, that's exactly right. But when
it says God remembered, it means that he didn't
forget. Yeah, amen. And he never forgot. He didn't
misplace it and go, oh, man, I've let it rain
for a long time. I almost forgot. Amen. But God
remembered. And I think that, again, as we grow
in Christ and our relationship with him, our
knowledge of him, we learn more about. I think
in who he truly is, that we can take hope in
that, even in those times of deep suffering,
that I'm not alone, I'm not abandoned. And whatever
I'm going through, no matter how difficult and
how much I would rather that cup pass from me,
that I can express that. And again, just echoing
Christ, but not my will, your will be done. And
so it's okay for me to say, God, I don't want
this. Yeah. I, you know, this is, this is not
what I want. And that, and to that point, Brad,
like when you said, God, I don't want this. I,
you know, I put myself visually, I put myself
in, in the, in the line of, I know I'm about
to pass through a valley of the shadow of death.
And if in the case, I remember before I walk
in, if I remember, you know, This is about to
happen. But I know at some point, you know, God
has promised that he's going to set the table
before me in the presence of my enemies. And
when you said that, I don't like all of a sudden
I had the thought that's never popped in my mind
before. Even when I'm sitting at the table in
the presence of my enemies, it doesn't change
the fact that I still don't want to be in the
valley. Amen. This table doesn't make things.
doesn't it's not like it's not like i'm trying
to uh how do i say it i'm not i'm not going to
find a scenario where i'm going to give my approval
to god for sending me through the valley of the
shadow of death he is providing what i need to
get through by setting the table but that still
doesn't mean that oh okay well i get it now i'm
fine No, it still sucks. And as an introvert,
the idea of my enemies watching me eat is making
me uncomfortable. That's my personality. I know
some people will be eating like, yeah, ha, ha,
ha. Yeah, I'm like, yeah. Not me at all. Can
you make them not be looking at me, God? I'm
going to be staring them in the eyes like, look,
I'm here. You don't get this. And I still don't
want to be here. So I'm going to savor every
bite. As my daughter says, secondhand embarrassment.
I'm embarrassed for you guys. Empathy is a great
thing and sometimes it's not. all right so so
that's a different book so you know yeah this
is a different book but uh brad i want to say
something um john i've got a question for you
i know it's not one that that we sent you but
it is absolutely in line with the conversation
that we've been having to this point and i don't
think it was this past sunday i think it was
two sundays ago where our pastor mentioned something
relating to the topic of suffering um excuse
me and what he said was empathy And sympathy
are different. We have, excuse me, not, not empathy,
compassion. He said that we have sympathy. You
know, if, if, and I'm just going to put myself
in the mercy of the court here. If I were to,
if, if, if I hear of, well, it's, you know, the
tornadoes that, that passed through Somerset.
My Brad, Brad knows this, that, that my, my mom's
parents lived in Somerset for years and years
and years. And so like that place has a special
place in my heart. Sure. But if I'm honest, I
was not filled with so much compassion that I've
dropped everything that I've got to go up. And
like, if anybody wants some ammunition to point
against me, there you go. I just gave it to you.
But the idea is I'm sympathetic for them. Like,
oh, you know, I'll lift up a prayer or two, maybe
three, and then I'll continue going about my
life. And would you agree? John, that people
in general, when we are experiencing suffering
secondhand, right? If we're on the outskirts
and we're looking in, do that people in general
try to be sympathetic but not compassionate?
What would you have to say about that? Yeah,
and that's a sharp distinction to make. But I
can see where the pastor was coming from. Sure.
Because you're not always able to put yourself
in the position of the one that's suffering.
Right. And it doesn't mean as much as it would
if you were going through the suffering. Now,
what happens as you suffer in your life and then
you witness others go through similar suffering.
then it becomes a whole lot easier to be compassionate.
And can I say on the other end of the spectrum,
right, is sometimes that we can get so weighted
down because we are carrying the weight of everybody's
suffering. And that's where I can be guilty and
I can't handle it. It will cause me to be discouraged
and depressed. And one of the things my dad always
said to me, and I'm sure we've talked about this
on the show before, he would see me in those
moments and we'd be talking about it. He'd say,
sounds like you're carrying the weight of the
whole world on your shoulders. And I'd say, yeah.
And he'd say, Jesus already did that. Amen. And
so there's the other end. Again, you've got the,
oh, kind of calloused or, hey, too bad that happened
to you. But then you can go too far on the other
end and just take too much of it on yourself.
And then you realize how small you are. Right.
How how little that you were not able to bear
it. Right. And even like financially and physically,
you know, I can't go out and because I sometimes
won't try to fix the situation myself. Sure.
When when God is the ultimate fix and then God
is going to use his church. Now, you know, one
of the things that my wife has to remind me is
I'm not the only soldier in God's army. Right,
man. Yeah. And I'm definitely not the savior.
So he's not calling me to be the main character
in his book. Yeah. Hey, Brad, you were needed.
No, but. but it's an honor when God does choose
to use us. And I think we've got to be readily,
you know, ready to do that and to help where
we can. But yeah. So again, it's that balance
of right. Sure. My wife is a lot similar to you
in that regard. She, the sufferings that other
people go through, she just, she carries it.
It gets so heavy on her. And, and there's a blessing
of that because if, if I'm counseling someone,
it's a great benefit. Sure. My wife there as
I'm counseling because she provides such a great
benefit for it. But the other side of that is
she has to be careful because, you know, she'll
get really discouraged. Yeah. Because she feels
it so heavily. Yeah. And I'm still learning how
to, again, take God up on his cast all of these
things on Jesus because he cares for you. And
I've. I've come to the conclusion that sometimes
it's like a yo -yo and it keeps coming. It's
like it's stuck to me. So sometimes I just got
to sit at his feet with it. God, I can't seem
to get it off. So I'm just going to sit here
with you and pray and be in your presence and
ask you. Hey, Father. Hey, Dad. Could you help
me? I think I super glued it to me. Yeah, amen.
Can you get it off? Because I can't. But he's
always faithful. And he will use those times
again, too, though. He'll use those times of
that suffering, of that discouragement, of that
depression, again, in counseling others and helping
others. Because, hey, when God has brought you
through and out, and even though, again, with
me, sometimes I end up falling back. into that
same place of discouragement or depression but
i know better where to you know where to go and
where to turn and and how to navigate those things
because i've told a lot of people when depression
if if i see you two days later and you're like
oh my life's great everything's awesome I know
you're lying because depression doesn't, you
know, typically doesn't just, you don't pop out
of it. You wade out of it. Like you were in deep
water and you kind of wade out and yeah, you're
feeling more and more of the sunshine, but you
get out of there and God's with you every step
of the way. And through this whole conversation,
Brad, as you were talking, it just occurred to
me that at least in my experience with the topic
of suffering, The issue that is dealt with the
most, whether it's me thinking about it or whether
it's conversations like this that I've had, it
seems that everybody is so focused on the fact
that they are going through suffering, which
is legit. But what we fail to acknowledge and
certainly what I have failed to acknowledge in
my life, I've noticed and people around me doing
the same is we're like not reaching out. John,
like you have with this book, not reaching out
with what I have suffered through to help other
people suffer through it. You know, and so like
suffering at that point in time, if we think
about the legitimacy of Job's suffering, unfair?
I mean, maybe, but that's not the topic, right?
The issue is, did Job suffer? Yes. Did his friends
help him, granted, as best as they could, but
still? wrongly yes but not only was job better
for it but so were they at the end of it oh no
kidding right and so and so as we as we make
it through suffering i think far too often in
my life i have wanted to retreat away from the
suffering so i don't have to worry about it anymore
i don't want to think about it i don't want i
just need to get away from it the problem is
that on the other end of suffering i now have
been empowered So if I so choose, or if I, if
I, if I'm willing to submit, I have, I like,
I'm empowered to help somebody else through that
suffering event, because John, as you, as you
mentioned, you know, as you were, as you were
writing the book, like you said that you were,
you were thinking about being able to, to, to
work yourself emotionally through the death of
your mom. you're better for those particular
moments where you get to offer the kind of the
kind of of respite almost that may not have actually
directly come from god like we hope that it would
i mean you know because brad and i mentioned
uh here recently on one of our one of our recent
shows that um you know galatians 6 2 says brothers
bear each other's burdens therefore fulfilling
the law of christ And part of, I believe, part
of God providing respite and encouragement and
breath during suffering is not just him snapping
his fingers, but rather him providing that through
other people around us that know precisely what
we're going through. Amen. Amen. And you know,
I think a lot about Charles Spurgeon, the Prince
of Preachers, went through great... bouts of
depression. And it cannot be ignored that perhaps
one of the reasons he was such an effective preacher
is because of his suffering. And in fact, the
story is told in one of his biographies that
he was under such depression on one particular
Sunday that he wouldn't preach. He took the Sunday
off, went to a church in the country. that he
had had some history with. I think he grew up
there or something. I forget how the story goes
now. But he sat in the back of the church, and
the pastor of that church preached one of Spurgeon's
sermons word for word. And Spurgeon received
such great comfort from that. And the pastor,
when he saw him after the service, he apologized.
Of course, Brother Spurgeon told him, hey, no,
no, God used my own. I don't think I'll ever
have to worry about somebody plagiarizing one
of mine. Yeah, I probably don't have to worry
too much about that either. One of my favorite
quotes from Spurgeon is he said, I've learned
to kiss the waves that have thrown me against
the rock of ages. And yeah, something like that.
Again, I'm horrible with direct quotes. But I
mean, again, as someone who has and continues
to go through cycles of depression and stuff,
it's just a reality for me. And again, I've seen
how God has used that in me. And he's used that
to help others to the point where I just recently
was visiting someone who was just, again, I don't
want to get too much in the situation, but was
really struggling with depression. And as I was
leaving, I just really thanked God for one of
the darkest. times in my life, which happened
about 10 years ago and where I was just probably
at the lowest that I had ever been. And just
thanked him for that and for bringing me through
that, because I was able, you know, to say and
hopefully help this person, you know, that. Look
here, when I hit rock bottom, when I hit my darkest
day, you know, God hadn't abandoned me. He didn't
abandon me and he led me through it. And he didn't,
again, he didn't snap his fingers. And the next
day after I realized that it was beautiful and
it was great. No, it was, it was, it was, it
was a, a value of the deepest darkness. It was
walking out of, of where I had found myself in
and then realizing that my shepherd was there
the whole way. Amen. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I tell
you, I think if I had a Spurgeon beard like yourself,
I'd probably never get depressed. Right? I mean,
I can't grow anything. Look at me. So here's
the thing, John. I wish that I could actually
grow a beard like that. I can't get past the...
Once you pass the stubble stage, it gets so itchy
that you want to rip the skin off your skull.
And that's where I draw the line. I can't even
get to the stubble stage. If I were to let all
this, everything go for a couple of weeks, I'd
just look like some creepy, besant 12 -year -old
that thinks he's tough. Peach fuzz. So, John,
where can people that are listening to the show,
where can they both find you and your book? All
right. So they can find me on Facebook, John
R. Kirkendall. I'll spell that because it doesn't
look like it sounds. It is K -U -Y -K -E -N.
D -A -L -L. And I'm the pastor of Pilgrim's Rest
Baptist Church in Hillsborough, Missouri. You
can find us on Facebook and on the web as well.
The book is available at redeemingfamilypress
.com. That's the best price you're going to get
is from the publisher, Redeeming Family Press.
It's also available on Amazon and I think probably
Books A Million and Barnes & Noble. But if you're
searching for it on Amazon, you'll have to enter
my full name, John R. Kirkendall, and then the
full title, Beyond the Shadows, A Theology of
Suffering and Hope. But that's where it is, and
I hope you read it, and I hope you're encouraged
by it. Yeah. Well, dude, thank you so much for
joining us. Thanks for having me. Oh, it's been
a pleasure. Great joy. Yeah. So, listeners, you
heard it here. Go check out Beyond Suffering
Theology. Sorry, I did it again. Beyond the Shadows.
Beyond the Shadows, The Theology of Suffering
and Hope. If you're in the Hillsborough area,
I have a few copies I can give you. Stop by the
church sometime, and I'd be happy to meet you
and give you a copy. How far away is Hillsborough
from Murphy? How far apart are you guys? 20 or
30 minutes, maybe. Somewhere in between there.
There you go. If you were in the area. Yeah.
Go grab, go grab, go grab like a free copy. Yeah.
That's right. But, but yeah, it's been, I didn't
say free. DJ said he would pay for it for you
to grab a copy. That's fair. Yeah. Sorry. I don't,
I'm not an LLC. I don't have like, I can't give
you an invoice. You know, I don't have an EIN.
But listeners, we thank you so much for tuning
in today for our very first interview. Again,
John, thank you so much, man, for being on the
show and hanging out with us. Thank you. It was
my honor. Listeners, you know what to do. You
know where to find us. You can follow us on our
Facebook group page. men church stuff um we've
got an instagram at men church stuff uh email
us remember there is a uh we're currently still
taking um funny church stories john we'd love
i mean as a pastor feel free to email us one
or two of them oh yeah yeah absolutely um but
but email your funny for any church stories to
me and Brad. Our email is menschurchstuff at
gmail .com. Brad, I am in the process right now,
like currently as we speak, of getting even just
a basic shell of a website up so that we've got
something to kind of centralize everything for
our listeners. So listeners be on the lookout
for the launch of that. It will occur this summer
for sure. But, yeah, I can't think. Brad, is
there anything else? I'm not thinking of anything
else that they need to know. Other than you'd
usually say, hey, leave us a review. Oh, yeah,
that's right. Rate and review the show, of course.
Yes. Yeah, rate and review. Listeners, if you're
new to the show, you can find this podcast on,
to my knowledge. Wherever you just watched it.
Yeah, wherever you're listening to it now, go
back. Go to find it. But we've just dropped,
again, listeners that are new to the show, if
you are Star Wars fans, the last episode for
Star Wars is titled Boba Fett Jar Jar Akbar Wedge.
It is a fantastic show. Fabulous. John, are you
a Star Wars fan? I am, although I think... The
original Star Wars movies are still better than
all the rest. Oh, yeah, absolutely. 100%. Yeah,
go take a listen to that show. I think you'll
enjoy it. Yeah, I'll do that. But, yeah, so listeners,
interact with us. We love engagement. Beyond
that, John, again, thank you so much for joining
us. Thank you. Uh -huh. Brad, I love you, buddy.
Love you, too. Listeners. Thank you both. Oh,
absolutely. You're welcome. Listeners, we love
you. And we will catch you next time. And go
be his church.