WEBVTT 00:00:02.080 --> 00:00:05.860 Welcome, this is the Men Church Stuff Podcast. 00:00:16.699 --> 00:00:19.219 This is the show where brothers -in -law DJ Culp 00:00:19.219 --> 00:00:23.000 and Brad Coleman talk about stuff from our perspective 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:26.480 as men. It's a show for anyone who wants to hear 00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:29.039 how Christians interact with the world. And don't 00:00:29.039 --> 00:00:31.670 worry, we're real. We've grown up in church, 00:00:31.789 --> 00:00:34.090 and we want to share our experiences with you. 00:00:34.509 --> 00:00:37.990 We'll talk life stuff, church stuff, man stuff, 00:00:38.229 --> 00:00:47.990 and stuff stuff. Here we go. Greetings, listeners 00:00:47.990 --> 00:00:51.170 here and there and everywhere all across the 00:00:51.170 --> 00:00:54.090 land. This is the Mentor Stuff Podcast. I am 00:00:54.090 --> 00:00:57.520 one of your hosts, DJ Culp. As always, here with 00:00:57.520 --> 00:01:00.259 my beloved brother -in -law, Brad Coleman. Brad, 00:01:00.340 --> 00:01:04.239 what's up, man? Hey, I am celebrating a wonderful 00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:06.659 week fishing. Yeah, you definitely are, dude. 00:01:06.799 --> 00:01:11.099 And our first official guest on our show. First 00:01:11.099 --> 00:01:14.859 interview. This is episode 95. And so, listeners, 00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:19.319 we've got Mr. John Kirkendall. It is Mr., or 00:01:19.319 --> 00:01:22.430 is it? Reverend. It was yesterday. it was yesterday 00:01:22.430 --> 00:01:24.370 okay yeah oh are you reverend reverend brother 00:01:24.370 --> 00:01:27.230 pastor mister the right reverend the reverend 00:01:27.230 --> 00:01:32.150 dr john bishop bishop john i'm the bishop of 00:01:32.150 --> 00:01:38.010 hillsborough are you a bishop okay that's fair 00:01:38.010 --> 00:01:41.849 i'm a fan of i'm a fan of like making a mockery 00:01:41.849 --> 00:01:45.859 of the whole like traditional uh uh like prefix 00:01:45.859 --> 00:01:50.079 and so yeah if it's like a if it's a pastor i 00:01:50.079 --> 00:01:53.540 prefer i prefer like mr brother reverend pastor 00:01:53.540 --> 00:01:56.560 and then the person there you go but all of those 00:01:56.560 --> 00:01:59.280 things together yeah put them all together that's 00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:01.120 right dude so if you're a bishop then you get 00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:05.439 mr mr mr brother reverend pastor bishop john 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:07.900 so yeah i just have to put i have to shorten 00:02:07.900 --> 00:02:12.319 all those up for the uh business card um but 00:02:12.319 --> 00:02:14.860 yeah so brad you're right dude episode 95 we've 00:02:14.860 --> 00:02:19.379 got our first interview here um but uh uh listeners 00:02:19.379 --> 00:02:22.500 we will update you um in in due time about our 00:02:22.500 --> 00:02:24.759 fishing trip for sure because as brad called 00:02:24.759 --> 00:02:27.699 it it was his week of validation and vindication 00:02:27.699 --> 00:02:34.319 was it ever like yeah so um but uh yeah our our 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:37.919 special guest is uh mr john kirkendall um and 00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:43.110 john has um has written a book And let me get 00:02:43.110 --> 00:02:48.689 to that title. The book is entitled, John, I 00:02:48.689 --> 00:02:52.490 can't get there fast enough. It is Beyond the 00:02:52.490 --> 00:02:55.449 Shadows, A Theology of Suffering and Hope. And 00:02:55.449 --> 00:02:57.629 it's backwards, but you got to get it right. 00:02:57.889 --> 00:03:00.530 Beyond the Shadows. That's right. Yeah. Theology 00:03:00.530 --> 00:03:04.800 of Suffering and Hope. Excellent. And I know, 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:06.939 Brad, why don't you do this for our listeners? 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:10.159 I know that you and John have some history. So 00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:13.280 if you would, just kind of brief us on how you 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:15.560 and John know each other. Well, we've been a 00:03:15.560 --> 00:03:19.500 part of the same association. And we were briefly 00:03:19.500 --> 00:03:23.960 in a group that, I don't know what happened to 00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:25.740 that. I guess that program kind of fell apart. 00:03:25.879 --> 00:03:27.520 We were kind of getting together as pastors. 00:03:28.460 --> 00:03:29.960 But, you know, we've got to know each other a 00:03:29.960 --> 00:03:32.360 little bit. through kind of some teams we've 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:34.759 been on and just, again, pastor in the same association. 00:03:36.460 --> 00:03:42.379 And of course, I've read his book, which I enjoyed. 00:03:42.659 --> 00:03:45.840 I'm sorry, I have not. It was good. Took some 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:50.240 good notes. And again, I think one of the things 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:52.060 that I want to just point out as we get started 00:03:52.060 --> 00:03:54.280 is one of the things I like, John, is in your 00:03:54.280 --> 00:04:00.060 introduction, you talk about how that this book, 00:04:00.490 --> 00:04:04.509 although it's theology, like you don't want to 00:04:04.509 --> 00:04:07.110 ostracize the people that maybe have a different 00:04:07.110 --> 00:04:09.870 or slightly different understanding of some, 00:04:10.430 --> 00:04:13.449 that you want this to be a book of hope and help 00:04:13.449 --> 00:04:16.930 as they're going through suffering. And I really 00:04:16.930 --> 00:04:18.790 appreciate that because, you know, obviously 00:04:18.790 --> 00:04:24.269 even as Baptists, like we tend to agree on a 00:04:24.269 --> 00:04:27.209 lot of the major points, but But even within 00:04:27.209 --> 00:04:30.310 just the Southern Baptist, there's a lot of understandings 00:04:30.310 --> 00:04:33.209 of difference. We tend to be very polemical. 00:04:33.629 --> 00:04:37.550 So I just really appreciated you kind of starting 00:04:37.550 --> 00:04:41.490 out there of like, hey, I'm not so much trying 00:04:41.490 --> 00:04:45.529 to write a textbook. I'm trying to help those 00:04:45.529 --> 00:04:48.089 who are struggling through suffering. And why 00:04:48.089 --> 00:04:52.110 are we struggling? And if Jesus loves us, why 00:04:52.110 --> 00:04:57.649 is there still struggle? Amen. So, John, and 00:04:57.649 --> 00:05:00.490 again, I'm sorry, I haven't read the book. I 00:05:00.490 --> 00:05:06.029 have read the intro. And I do remember that you 00:05:06.029 --> 00:05:11.269 kind of gave sort of the acknowledgement that 00:05:11.269 --> 00:05:14.589 you had seen this big disparity kind of in there's 00:05:14.589 --> 00:05:17.189 not a lot of material that discusses more of 00:05:17.189 --> 00:05:19.050 like the practical application of how does a 00:05:19.050 --> 00:05:25.689 person work through this kind of stuff. on your 00:05:25.689 --> 00:05:28.449 behalf for even, I mean, really having the courage 00:05:28.449 --> 00:05:30.810 and the boldness, because I'm sure that I've 00:05:30.810 --> 00:05:33.170 heard it. I've heard it said a bunch that anybody 00:05:33.170 --> 00:05:35.389 can write a book. The issue with that statement 00:05:35.389 --> 00:05:38.209 is that not everybody does. And so what was it 00:05:38.209 --> 00:05:40.529 that kind of, that kind of got you into the mindset 00:05:40.529 --> 00:05:44.029 of I'm going to do this? Sure. Well, to be honest, 00:05:44.149 --> 00:05:47.269 I never imagined I would write a book on this 00:05:47.269 --> 00:05:51.829 topic. I had always wanted to write a book and 00:05:51.829 --> 00:05:56.399 to be honest, The book I always wanted to write 00:05:56.399 --> 00:06:01.040 was a book about legalism. And I may do that 00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:05.439 at some point. Are you for or against it? I'm 00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:10.910 for it, brother. The more stuff we can do against 00:06:10.910 --> 00:06:16.209 the better. But, you know, I was in a legalistic 00:06:16.209 --> 00:06:19.209 environment and I used to joke that we made stuff 00:06:19.209 --> 00:06:22.290 up to be against. And I may write that at some 00:06:22.290 --> 00:06:24.829 point that I haven't written it yet, because 00:06:24.829 --> 00:06:27.509 I think to deal with that subject appropriately, 00:06:27.610 --> 00:06:30.470 you need to deal with legalism, antinomianism, 00:06:30.550 --> 00:06:34.529 which is the other side and the gospel. But at 00:06:34.529 --> 00:06:39.949 any rate, I have a good friend who is. a godly 00:06:39.949 --> 00:06:41.870 man the lord has done a wonderful work in his 00:06:41.870 --> 00:06:45.430 life and it's a joy to watch him grow in his 00:06:45.430 --> 00:06:48.310 faith and witnesses all the time just a tremendous 00:06:48.310 --> 00:06:55.009 brother and he he leans charismatic and i'm pretty 00:06:55.009 --> 00:06:58.269 sure he claims that title um so i don't think 00:06:58.269 --> 00:07:00.430 i'm calling him that in any disparaging way he 00:07:00.430 --> 00:07:05.069 he is a charismatic sure and so we're good friends 00:07:05.069 --> 00:07:07.569 and he and his family will come over to the house 00:07:08.009 --> 00:07:13.430 on occasion and on some of those times that he 00:07:13.430 --> 00:07:19.850 came we began to talk about suffering and primarily 00:07:19.850 --> 00:07:23.649 the role of suffering in our life why believers 00:07:23.649 --> 00:07:27.250 suffer what role does god have in our suffering 00:07:27.250 --> 00:07:30.649 is god sovereign over our suffering is there 00:07:30.649 --> 00:07:34.889 a purpose is is suffering something that the 00:07:34.889 --> 00:07:41.069 devil is always doing to us or is it that when 00:07:41.069 --> 00:07:43.149 we suffer it's because we're missing something 00:07:43.149 --> 00:07:48.550 yeah and and he and i because i'm eileen reformed 00:07:48.550 --> 00:07:51.230 in my theology and he's charismatic you can imagine 00:07:51.230 --> 00:07:54.829 we diverge on that point sure had a lot to talk 00:07:54.829 --> 00:07:58.550 about yeah yeah and um and some of the things 00:07:58.550 --> 00:08:01.550 he said I don't think I'd ever heard articulated 00:08:01.550 --> 00:08:03.769 that way, and I'm sure probably some of the things 00:08:03.769 --> 00:08:08.550 I said he hadn't heard a whole lot of. But at 00:08:08.550 --> 00:08:12.870 any rate, after he left, I told my wife that 00:08:12.870 --> 00:08:17.310 I have to confess I've never spent a great deal 00:08:17.310 --> 00:08:19.449 of time preaching on this subject at church. 00:08:20.970 --> 00:08:25.550 It's just not, and not many people do. And I 00:08:25.550 --> 00:08:28.050 decided, you know what, this needs to be a topic 00:08:28.050 --> 00:08:30.550 that we address not only to prepare people who 00:08:30.550 --> 00:08:34.330 are suffering, but to give people answers for 00:08:34.330 --> 00:08:37.029 when the skeptic or someone comes asking about 00:08:37.029 --> 00:08:41.830 suffering. So I began it as a Sunday night series 00:08:41.830 --> 00:08:46.149 at church and then decided to manuscript the 00:08:46.149 --> 00:08:49.309 sermon so that I could turn it into a book. And 00:08:49.309 --> 00:08:51.149 that's what I did. It turned out to be a lot 00:08:51.149 --> 00:08:55.549 more work than I expected. The premise behind 00:08:55.549 --> 00:09:01.870 the book. That's awesome. So when I'm thinking 00:09:01.870 --> 00:09:03.730 kind of like about what you were just saying, 00:09:03.870 --> 00:09:07.769 the first thing really that popped into my mind 00:09:07.769 --> 00:09:12.029 in terms of is this kind of what you're trying 00:09:12.029 --> 00:09:15.289 to address? Or is this a part anyways of what 00:09:15.289 --> 00:09:18.350 you're trying to address? When my wife and I... 00:09:18.779 --> 00:09:22.820 um she was she was ready to have um she was really 00:09:22.820 --> 00:09:25.200 close to having um having birth with our first 00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:29.159 her her brother died um suddenly of an aortic 00:09:29.159 --> 00:09:33.460 aneurysm and he's 20 he was 20 years old um that's 00:09:33.460 --> 00:09:35.440 a day that's a day that will live in infamy in 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:37.580 my memory for sure absolutely not not cool at 00:09:37.580 --> 00:09:44.279 all but um what i do remember is kind of this 00:09:44.279 --> 00:09:49.320 um it's like a i'm gonna call it a spiritual 00:09:49.320 --> 00:09:53.919 anecdote if you don't if you will um that a lot 00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:58.840 of people were saying you know this that god's 00:09:58.840 --> 00:10:00.419 plan is god's plan and there's nothing to do 00:10:00.419 --> 00:10:04.019 to change it granted i agree with that but in 00:10:04.019 --> 00:10:09.850 terms of how the family right with the loss is 00:10:09.850 --> 00:10:11.730 this kind of is this kind of like the approach 00:10:11.730 --> 00:10:14.350 like what like what do we do with this this area 00:10:14.350 --> 00:10:18.129 of the suffering whether whether it's this tragic 00:10:18.129 --> 00:10:20.929 or not right suffering that we're going to deal 00:10:20.929 --> 00:10:24.509 with is as real as it actually is no matter what 00:10:24.509 --> 00:10:27.370 kind of no matter what kind of positive christianly 00:10:27.370 --> 00:10:29.549 or whatever type of narrative they were trying 00:10:29.549 --> 00:10:32.009 to feed into it sure is that is that kind of 00:10:32.009 --> 00:10:34.110 is that kind of the one of the areas that you 00:10:34.110 --> 00:10:36.960 that you're trying to get trying to hit Yeah, 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:40.220 yeah. How do we approach suffering? Why does 00:10:40.220 --> 00:10:44.799 it happen? And what do we do with it? What does 00:10:44.799 --> 00:10:49.080 Scripture say about suffering? Because as Brad 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:52.820 said already, you can't address the subject without 00:10:52.820 --> 00:10:59.220 speaking to theology. But at the same time, for 00:10:59.220 --> 00:11:03.779 example, I was at... home yesterday where a church 00:11:03.779 --> 00:11:08.460 member had died and a wonderful lady had lost 00:11:08.460 --> 00:11:10.500 her husband and children had lost their father 00:11:10.500 --> 00:11:15.740 and all those things. But you don't go into a 00:11:15.740 --> 00:11:18.139 situation like that and say, well, that's the 00:11:18.139 --> 00:11:21.759 Lord's plan. You've got to roll with it. We've 00:11:21.759 --> 00:11:25.840 all heard people say that. But that is one thing 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:28.159 to embrace the theology, but it's another thing 00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:31.970 to say, okay, What now? What do I do with this? 00:11:32.429 --> 00:11:35.230 Dave Evans, who was the former pastor at Pilgrim's 00:11:35.230 --> 00:11:37.830 Rest before I came, he was here almost 10 years. 00:11:38.389 --> 00:11:40.909 Several of the church members have told me that 00:11:40.909 --> 00:11:43.690 he used to say, when you go through something, 00:11:43.909 --> 00:11:48.990 don't ask why, ask what. And I actually mentioned 00:11:48.990 --> 00:11:51.690 that in the book. And I think that's very appropriate. 00:11:51.950 --> 00:11:54.769 So in the book, I try to obviously pull from 00:11:54.769 --> 00:11:58.190 scriptural examples, pull from some of my own. 00:11:58.669 --> 00:12:01.889 and others to show that this is what the Bible 00:12:01.889 --> 00:12:04.750 says. God is sovereign. He does have a plan. 00:12:05.970 --> 00:12:09.110 He's not a cosmic clockwinder. He's not aloof. 00:12:09.169 --> 00:12:11.970 He's not separated from us in our sorrow, but 00:12:11.970 --> 00:12:15.870 rather he identifies with us in our sorrow. And 00:12:15.870 --> 00:12:19.250 though we don't always see it now, he does have 00:12:19.250 --> 00:12:21.409 a plan and he does all things for our good and 00:12:21.409 --> 00:12:25.669 his glory and trying to give them tools to cope 00:12:25.669 --> 00:12:28.500 with those things. Sure. And one of the things 00:12:28.500 --> 00:12:31.299 that I wrote down just on that subject from your 00:12:31.299 --> 00:12:35.600 book was, and I don't remember if this is a direct 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:39.340 quote or just the idea that I got, but the technical 00:12:39.340 --> 00:12:42.360 truth can be hurtful when presented callously, 00:12:42.620 --> 00:12:48.279 DJ can fix that, in times of tragedy. Yeah, absolutely. 00:12:48.440 --> 00:12:53.679 And that sounds like it's probably from probably 00:12:53.679 --> 00:12:57.460 the second or third chapter, I would say. But 00:12:57.460 --> 00:13:00.419 yeah, it's true. You've heard people say that 00:13:00.419 --> 00:13:05.840 a lot. A lot of times when we're with someone 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:09.179 who is suffering, I think oftentimes things are 00:13:09.179 --> 00:13:12.639 sad that aren't helpful. And oftentimes we feel 00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:14.840 like we have to say something. And more often 00:13:14.840 --> 00:13:17.679 than not, that's for our benefit rather than 00:13:17.679 --> 00:13:21.080 theirs. Right. Yeah. Yeah. This moment is awkward 00:13:21.080 --> 00:13:23.080 right now. And so I'm going to try to actually 00:13:23.080 --> 00:13:26.460 appease it myself. Yeah. But Job's friends were 00:13:26.460 --> 00:13:29.659 the best help when they were just there. Right. 00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:32.080 Yeah. When they kept their mouth shut. Yeah. 00:13:32.139 --> 00:13:36.399 Right. Not their opinions, but yeah. Oh, man, 00:13:36.519 --> 00:13:39.320 those guys are some. Of course, you can't beat 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:41.539 them up too much. You know, these guys are doing 00:13:41.539 --> 00:13:45.460 theology and they don't have the written revelation. 00:13:45.980 --> 00:13:48.460 Right. That's true. Essentially, all their theology 00:13:48.460 --> 00:13:52.820 was natural theology. I mean, if you don't have 00:13:52.820 --> 00:13:55.320 the Bible, it might be a logical conclusion that, 00:13:55.340 --> 00:13:57.179 well, obviously you're suffering because God's 00:13:57.179 --> 00:14:00.259 mad at you. Right. And God doesn't condemn them 00:14:00.259 --> 00:14:02.600 in the end, right? He corrects them through Job. 00:14:02.620 --> 00:14:05.419 He says, hey, you offer a sacrifice. And if Job 00:14:05.419 --> 00:14:09.259 accepts it, then I will. Yeah. You know, so it's 00:14:09.259 --> 00:14:11.559 kind of a correction, not a condemnation. Right. 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:14.500 But the reality is there are a lot of people 00:14:14.500 --> 00:14:17.700 that go through life all the time, fearful that 00:14:17.700 --> 00:14:20.850 God's angry with them. Every time they suffer, 00:14:20.929 --> 00:14:23.990 they wonder what they've done. Has God angry 00:14:23.990 --> 00:14:27.929 with me? And sometimes, you know, 1 Corinthians 00:14:27.929 --> 00:14:30.210 11 is an indication, and the book of James is 00:14:30.210 --> 00:14:32.850 an indication in chapter 5. And I deal with that 00:14:32.850 --> 00:14:38.289 as well, that suffering does come from sin. But 00:14:38.289 --> 00:14:41.129 a lot of Scripture gives us examples of people 00:14:41.129 --> 00:14:45.149 who are living right and in God's will, and they 00:14:45.149 --> 00:14:48.320 suffer for His glory. Well, I mean, Jesus, right? 00:14:48.379 --> 00:14:52.960 Jesus was sinless, yet he suffered. Well, and 00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:57.100 even coming back to Job, I mean, right? The last 00:14:57.100 --> 00:14:59.460 sort of final conversation that Job has with 00:14:59.460 --> 00:15:02.679 God, he says himself, you know, God, before this, 00:15:02.759 --> 00:15:06.330 I knew about you. Yeah. So like, you know, and 00:15:06.330 --> 00:15:09.009 so John, just in the exact same light, I mean, 00:15:09.029 --> 00:15:11.269 what was Job doing? He was clearly just not doing 00:15:11.269 --> 00:15:13.090 anything. He was a guy minding his own business, 00:15:13.129 --> 00:15:15.590 doing his life and living it very well, apparently. 00:15:15.830 --> 00:15:18.190 But again, through the process of suffering, 00:15:18.389 --> 00:15:23.789 as I like to call it, like the royal smackdown 00:15:23.789 --> 00:15:28.029 that God gives Job at the end of the book, even 00:15:28.029 --> 00:15:32.860 though to, I think certainly to our like i know 00:15:32.860 --> 00:15:35.559 it's i know it's really rooted in kind of like 00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:38.659 almost almost ethics but i think just our cause 00:15:38.659 --> 00:15:41.860 and effect culture that we live in as you mentioned 00:15:41.860 --> 00:15:43.700 you know like why why is this happening i don't 00:15:43.700 --> 00:15:46.480 know sure right but but the fact is that it is 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:48.220 happening so don't try to seek that seek out 00:15:48.220 --> 00:15:49.960 the cause i think in in our cause and effect 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:54.399 way that we're looking at it we are like we're 00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:58.830 trying to we try to figure out what is the origin 00:15:58.830 --> 00:16:01.210 of this when in actuality, it may have just simply 00:16:01.210 --> 00:16:05.009 been God bringing us closer to him. Right. And 00:16:05.009 --> 00:16:07.809 I think Job was a wonderful illustration of that. 00:16:08.389 --> 00:16:12.570 And to the extent that suffering can give me 00:16:12.570 --> 00:16:16.090 a better glimpse of the Savior. and a better 00:16:16.090 --> 00:16:19.649 knowledge of who I am and draw me into his presence 00:16:19.649 --> 00:16:22.509 and assist me in growing in Christ likeness, 00:16:22.509 --> 00:16:25.629 then I can confess that that suffering was a 00:16:25.629 --> 00:16:32.929 good thing for me. Right. So. I don't know necessarily, 00:16:33.090 --> 00:16:35.870 John, how much you know about me specifically. 00:16:36.110 --> 00:16:38.370 So I've got a doctorate in music education from 00:16:38.370 --> 00:16:41.970 the University of Mississippi. And so I've not 00:16:41.970 --> 00:16:44.830 written a book, at least in the formal fashion 00:16:44.830 --> 00:16:47.090 that you have, like through a publisher and whatnot. 00:16:47.509 --> 00:16:50.769 But as someone who's just written a dissertation, 00:16:50.990 --> 00:16:54.990 I've got a question that I can very much empathize 00:16:54.990 --> 00:16:58.490 with. Was it hard as you were writing this? Was 00:16:58.490 --> 00:17:02.610 it hard? And if so, Could you tell us maybe which 00:17:02.610 --> 00:17:05.450 chapters or which concepts? Was it hard to flesh 00:17:05.450 --> 00:17:08.250 out your own thoughts, beliefs, and feelings 00:17:08.250 --> 00:17:13.490 as a writer? It was hard. It was harder than 00:17:13.490 --> 00:17:17.130 I anticipated. My initial thought process was, 00:17:17.230 --> 00:17:21.069 well, I preach from an outline. My outlines are 00:17:21.069 --> 00:17:25.329 about 2 ,000 words, sometimes as much as 2 ,500 00:17:25.329 --> 00:17:29.900 words. And so I thought, you know, if I manuscript 00:17:29.900 --> 00:17:33.319 a sermon, then that's going to be between four 00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:35.279 and five thousand words. So that's not a lot 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:38.839 more work. It was a lot more work. Yeah. And 00:17:38.839 --> 00:17:46.599 the hardest part was organizing the thoughts 00:17:46.599 --> 00:17:49.500 and knowing what to say and how much to say. 00:17:51.019 --> 00:17:54.460 You know. Because you don't want to just go information 00:17:54.460 --> 00:17:56.960 overload. You don't want to nerd out on one particular 00:17:56.960 --> 00:18:02.019 idea. And so narrowing it down and keeping the 00:18:02.019 --> 00:18:05.440 book focused was the difficult part. And even 00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:10.640 then, the editor, the publisher, trimmed it down 00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:14.519 some. For example, the section on sovereignty. 00:18:16.839 --> 00:18:19.500 I really wanted to go after the skeptics on that 00:18:19.500 --> 00:18:25.240 one and be very polemical on that. But and to 00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:27.500 an extent, that's good. But if you're writing 00:18:27.500 --> 00:18:30.960 a book to help people who are suffering, you 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:34.079 need to be wise about how much of that you put 00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:38.500 in there. So the chapter on sovereignty was difficult 00:18:38.500 --> 00:18:42.740 just to kind of narrow everything down. And I 00:18:42.740 --> 00:18:46.609 would say. A little bit of the same measure when 00:18:46.609 --> 00:18:49.289 I wrote the chapter on Paul's thorn in the flesh 00:18:49.289 --> 00:18:54.309 to discipline myself not to spend an inordinate 00:18:54.309 --> 00:18:56.609 amount of time talking about what Paul's thorn 00:18:56.609 --> 00:19:01.289 was. And then again, the last chapter. I love 00:19:01.289 --> 00:19:03.069 that. It's one of the things when you said that 00:19:03.069 --> 00:19:06.269 you brought up in the book, something that I 00:19:06.269 --> 00:19:12.609 hadn't really meshed out in my own psyche, which 00:19:12.609 --> 00:19:16.829 was. That we would assume, and I'm paraphrasing, 00:19:16.869 --> 00:19:19.410 of course, that we would assume that Paul would 00:19:19.410 --> 00:19:21.750 have been more effective without his thorn in 00:19:21.750 --> 00:19:24.910 the flesh. Yes. I mean, wouldn't you know, he 00:19:24.910 --> 00:19:27.210 prayed that way? That's exactly right. Yeah. 00:19:28.069 --> 00:19:31.490 But obviously God knew better, you know, so it's 00:19:31.490 --> 00:19:34.170 kind of a false assumption on their part. And 00:19:34.170 --> 00:19:39.430 I thought about myself who, again, I deal with 00:19:39.430 --> 00:19:43.410 ADHD. And you have no hair? Yeah, I have no hair. 00:19:43.789 --> 00:19:45.329 Dude, you're rocking it today, by the way, man. 00:19:45.450 --> 00:19:49.009 I'm sorry. I didn't mention that. But, you know, 00:19:49.009 --> 00:19:51.930 sometimes the way my brain works, sometimes I 00:19:51.930 --> 00:19:54.009 get frustrated because I get almost in these 00:19:54.009 --> 00:19:56.490 brain locks where I'm like, gosh, if I could 00:19:56.490 --> 00:20:01.289 just not get stuck here, how much more I could 00:20:01.289 --> 00:20:06.769 do. And I think that really spoke to me. It also 00:20:06.769 --> 00:20:10.539 reminded me like my dad. I remember one time 00:20:10.539 --> 00:20:12.839 I was probably about 16, 17 years old. I was 00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:15.740 frustrated with the way my brain works and all 00:20:15.740 --> 00:20:18.599 this stuff. And my dad was like, well, that's 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:20.519 your intellect. And I was like, well, if it's 00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:22.559 my intellect, I just wish God would make me stupid. 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:27.390 And my dad, I just remember him just like. very 00:20:27.390 --> 00:20:30.150 lovingly but fervently pointing his finger and 00:20:30.150 --> 00:20:32.710 going, don't you ever curse your intellect. Don't 00:20:32.710 --> 00:20:36.109 you ever curse what God has given you. That's 00:20:36.109 --> 00:20:39.630 wonderful. God has made you with the mind he's 00:20:39.630 --> 00:20:42.970 given you for reason and purpose. So don't curse 00:20:42.970 --> 00:20:46.329 that. And Paul kind of acknowledges that when 00:20:46.329 --> 00:20:49.609 God just goes, no, I'm not going to take it. 00:20:49.950 --> 00:20:54.369 Yeah. He goes, all right, then I'll just. I very 00:20:54.369 --> 00:20:57.450 Pauline that I will just celebrate and worship 00:20:57.450 --> 00:21:00.549 in my weakness. That's right. Yeah. The underlying 00:21:00.549 --> 00:21:03.089 assumption, we would never say it, but the underlying 00:21:03.089 --> 00:21:06.089 assumption when we feel that way is that we are 00:21:06.089 --> 00:21:09.849 somehow wiser than God. Yeah. And we're not, 00:21:09.950 --> 00:21:14.329 no, not even close. I told him the other day 00:21:14.329 --> 00:21:17.470 at church, I said, look, I would make a horrible 00:21:17.470 --> 00:21:21.470 savior. I can't even save myself. Amen to that. 00:21:21.609 --> 00:21:28.539 Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So like to, to, to that, you 00:21:28.539 --> 00:21:31.779 know, the, the, the Paul's thorn, I think I was, 00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:34.220 I'm going to say I was an adult, certainly in 00:21:34.220 --> 00:21:37.019 the last maybe seven years where I've begun to 00:21:37.019 --> 00:21:42.099 hear this stated, but the more that I have really 00:21:42.099 --> 00:21:45.579 kind of thought about whether it be, you know, 00:21:45.579 --> 00:21:47.940 in, in Paul's perspective or in my own, in my 00:21:47.940 --> 00:21:51.750 own life with, with you know, struggles. What 00:21:51.750 --> 00:21:56.710 is it exactly that would, I mean, really, and 00:21:56.710 --> 00:21:59.309 kind of, John, this is, for me anyways, this 00:21:59.309 --> 00:22:02.089 is kind of addressing the why, though it's obviously 00:22:02.089 --> 00:22:06.369 completely speculation, but kind of grounding 00:22:06.369 --> 00:22:10.769 it in the idea that it is true that Paul's ministry 00:22:10.769 --> 00:22:15.670 was better because the thorn was there. Right. 00:22:15.750 --> 00:22:20.569 It began to really get me to focus in on You 00:22:20.569 --> 00:22:24.170 know, as Christians who are suffering and as 00:22:24.170 --> 00:22:27.269 we suffer, sometimes more, sometimes less, right? 00:22:27.369 --> 00:22:28.869 I mean, it's just kind of the nature of life. 00:22:29.369 --> 00:22:32.829 As we go through sufferings and we clearly don't 00:22:32.829 --> 00:22:37.210 want to, it's not just why does it happen? What 00:22:37.210 --> 00:22:41.069 do we do with it? But are we even willing in 00:22:41.069 --> 00:22:43.069 the, and I would be willing to say that for me, 00:22:43.089 --> 00:22:45.960 certainly not in the. in the moments where I'm 00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:47.599 not suffering, but in the moments where I am, 00:22:47.740 --> 00:22:50.640 am I willing to retreat to God to say, all right, 00:22:50.660 --> 00:22:54.579 so clearly there is something that is going on 00:22:54.579 --> 00:22:59.559 here where God has an open door somewhere for 00:22:59.559 --> 00:23:03.559 me to run to him. And I think that with Paul, 00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:07.660 Brad and I have had conversations in the past. 00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:11.119 It's my contention that Paul is one of the most 00:23:11.769 --> 00:23:15.630 arrogant, egotistical writers, not in a negative 00:23:15.630 --> 00:23:19.579 way, but I mean, like... He knows who he is. 00:23:19.660 --> 00:23:21.799 He knows who he is, right? James is blunt. James 00:23:21.799 --> 00:23:23.460 is blunt, but he doesn't have the reputation 00:23:23.460 --> 00:23:27.259 that Paul does as an author. And so when I read 00:23:27.259 --> 00:23:30.420 Paul, I hear somebody who says, look, you can 00:23:30.420 --> 00:23:32.660 argue with me all the live long day. I know what 00:23:32.660 --> 00:23:34.759 I'm going to say, and I'm pretty sure I know 00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:37.039 what you're going to say too. Well, he does that. 00:23:38.059 --> 00:23:40.079 He's like, man, here's the argument you're going 00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:43.000 to make. Here's why it's terrible. Yeah, it's 00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:45.839 like C .S. Lewis before C .S. Lewis, right? Right, 00:23:45.859 --> 00:23:50.880 yeah. And so for me, I've kind of come to the 00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:54.619 conclusion that if Paul had not had that thorn, 00:23:54.680 --> 00:23:57.819 he may very well have made his bed in his own 00:23:57.819 --> 00:24:01.240 reputation. Well, he even said, lest I be lifted 00:24:01.240 --> 00:24:06.980 up with pride. And that's the reality. And all 00:24:06.980 --> 00:24:09.039 of us are prideful to one extent or another. 00:24:09.700 --> 00:24:14.529 And just like you said, we're not often. willing 00:24:14.529 --> 00:24:18.230 to run to god during times of suffering we want 00:24:18.230 --> 00:24:24.009 to feel sorry for ourselves and oftentimes we're 00:24:24.009 --> 00:24:27.109 slow to have the right response at least i am 00:24:27.109 --> 00:24:29.910 no and i think that's as human as human gets 00:24:29.910 --> 00:24:33.920 you know like i mean Coming back to Job, how 00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:36.000 long is Job? Like 40 some odd chapters, isn't 00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:38.640 that right? Like 42, I think. Yeah, so it takes 00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:45.180 Job 40 chapters to get there. So I think it's 00:24:45.180 --> 00:24:47.519 absolutely human for us to not want the suffering, 00:24:47.599 --> 00:24:50.839 like to get out of it. Brad, I'm going to bring 00:24:50.839 --> 00:24:54.319 this back, man. This has become, John, one of 00:24:54.319 --> 00:24:58.059 the things that Brad had mentioned, and I want 00:24:58.059 --> 00:25:02.259 to say it was in our Psalm 23 episode. Listeners, 00:25:02.259 --> 00:25:04.460 if you're new to the show, go check out Psalm 00:25:04.460 --> 00:25:08.440 23. It's a fantastic show. Anyways, one of the 00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:10.619 things that Brad mentioned to me that has never 00:25:10.619 --> 00:25:13.640 left, and Brad, I actually went back and thought, 00:25:13.779 --> 00:25:16.420 okay, is this really in there? I wonder if Brad 00:25:16.420 --> 00:25:19.460 misquoted. So let me go find it. And sure enough, 00:25:19.500 --> 00:25:24.700 there it was, where the promise of God through 00:25:24.700 --> 00:25:29.509 David is that God will... God will set a table 00:25:29.509 --> 00:25:32.190 before us in the presence of our enemies. So 00:25:32.190 --> 00:25:37.609 in the framework of the valley of the shadow 00:25:37.609 --> 00:25:40.890 of death, we're in the valley when he sets the 00:25:40.890 --> 00:25:43.109 table. He didn't wait to set the table until 00:25:43.109 --> 00:25:47.410 we get out. And so I think that kind of coming 00:25:47.410 --> 00:25:50.750 back into this whole conversation, the idea that 00:25:50.750 --> 00:25:52.430 we just simply want to get out of suffering, 00:25:52.490 --> 00:25:56.470 the very human trait of that, I think it's incredibly 00:25:56.470 --> 00:26:00.509 valid. Nobody enjoys it. But if we do, are we 00:26:00.509 --> 00:26:04.650 in fact risking missing any table that God has 00:26:04.650 --> 00:26:10.269 set before us to, again, bring us back or bring 00:26:10.269 --> 00:26:12.569 us closer or whatever, refine our faith, whatever 00:26:12.569 --> 00:26:15.210 the case is? I think that's very true. I heard 00:26:15.210 --> 00:26:19.589 a Christian apologist, and I forget who it was, 00:26:19.670 --> 00:26:23.569 but he said that if you had God's power, you 00:26:23.569 --> 00:26:27.069 would likely change a lot of things. But if you 00:26:27.069 --> 00:26:29.769 had his wisdom, you would keep them all the same. 00:26:30.589 --> 00:26:34.309 And I think that's true because we, as pastors, 00:26:34.369 --> 00:26:36.809 and Brad, you know this as well, we've seen people 00:26:36.809 --> 00:26:40.190 go through suffering. And if we had the ability, 00:26:40.410 --> 00:26:47.130 we would remove that. But if we did, we're robbing 00:26:47.130 --> 00:26:50.839 them of something. that god is doing in them 00:26:50.839 --> 00:26:53.539 and through them that maybe they won't even know 00:26:53.539 --> 00:26:57.799 until they reach glory yeah well i you know murphy 00:26:57.799 --> 00:27:00.099 one of the things that i've done a lot of funerals 00:27:00.099 --> 00:27:03.900 we've had a lot of funerals i i remember times 00:27:03.900 --> 00:27:06.839 just begging god let us be done for a while i 00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:09.299 mean it was just like we were losing so many 00:27:09.299 --> 00:27:11.900 people so many amazing saints that it was just 00:27:11.900 --> 00:27:14.319 like and i remember walking out of the hospital 00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:17.180 once with with another one who was just you know 00:27:17.180 --> 00:27:19.569 it was It was very evident that if God didn't 00:27:19.569 --> 00:27:22.130 intervene, they were soon going to go home. And 00:27:22.130 --> 00:27:24.470 they did. I remember walking out of the hospital 00:27:24.470 --> 00:27:28.329 and just praying and like, God, I tell people 00:27:28.329 --> 00:27:31.309 sometimes I don't have a magic wand. Amen. You 00:27:31.309 --> 00:27:33.269 know, I don't have a magic wand. But I was like, 00:27:33.349 --> 00:27:36.190 you know, I really wish that I did. I really 00:27:36.190 --> 00:27:38.869 wish you just let me. You know, and I feel like 00:27:38.869 --> 00:27:40.730 the Spirit put this question on my heart. It 00:27:40.730 --> 00:27:44.650 was, Brad, who would you let die? Who would you 00:27:44.650 --> 00:27:47.309 let die? Dude, that's Gandalf right there. And 00:27:47.309 --> 00:27:52.910 I'm like, I mean, that's Gandalf and Frodo. Yeah, 00:27:52.910 --> 00:27:56.529 you got me. You shall not pass. You got me. Again, 00:27:56.670 --> 00:27:59.390 and the reality of that is I would be keeping 00:27:59.390 --> 00:28:03.269 those saints from their eternity in glory. Right. 00:28:03.269 --> 00:28:05.410 Not Jesus. I'm keeping them away from Jesus. 00:28:05.609 --> 00:28:08.369 Yeah. You know, and it's like, okay, all right. 00:28:08.450 --> 00:28:13.000 And, you know, when God. God loves to ask good 00:28:13.000 --> 00:28:15.420 questions. After the scripture, he asks questions. 00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:18.900 And when God asks you a question, he's not looking 00:28:18.900 --> 00:28:21.819 for the answer for him. He's helping you get 00:28:21.819 --> 00:28:24.099 to the answer for you. And it's just like, you 00:28:24.099 --> 00:28:28.920 just got to be like Job and go, you got me. You 00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:34.599 got me. It's not an open forum. You don't have 00:28:34.599 --> 00:28:38.940 to debate him. No, no, no. Wouldn't take long. 00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:42.700 Wouldn't take long. Yeah, no kidding. So, John, 00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:47.059 regarding, and how many chapters are in your 00:28:47.059 --> 00:28:51.559 book? Is it 10? Eight or nine. Let me check. 00:28:51.740 --> 00:28:55.420 I think it's, you know, I wrote it. I ought to 00:28:55.420 --> 00:28:58.940 know. Don't worry, man. If you were to ask me. 00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:01.500 I'm too bad now because I read it and I didn't 00:29:01.500 --> 00:29:05.140 remember. Eight chapters. Eight chapters. You 00:29:05.140 --> 00:29:07.359 know, I wanted it to be accessible and wanted 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:10.000 people to be able. to read it, especially people 00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:13.099 who don't read. And pardon me while I sip a box. 00:29:13.099 --> 00:29:14.400 No, dude, you're good, man. You're very good. 00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:19.900 They're not an official promoter of our show, 00:29:20.059 --> 00:29:22.460 of our sponsor. But Bart's Root Beer, I mean, 00:29:22.460 --> 00:29:26.240 we're open to it. It's one of the few root beers 00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:28.460 that has caffeine, so I appreciate that. But 00:29:28.460 --> 00:29:31.960 yeah, my dad read the book and he has, you know, 00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:38.019 he's very open. He's not a reader. The book is 00:29:38.019 --> 00:29:43.680 about 130 pages. And even with the typesetting 00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:46.099 and all that, it's really not a long book. Very 00:29:46.099 --> 00:29:49.380 accessible, very easy to get through. And that 00:29:49.380 --> 00:29:52.880 was one of my goals. You know, Zig Ziglar said 00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:55.720 that when he wrote a book that he tried to write 00:29:55.720 --> 00:29:57.779 it on, I think, a third grade reading level. 00:29:58.279 --> 00:30:01.160 So even the college professors could understand. 00:30:01.639 --> 00:30:06.019 No, I think it's impossible to read a Zig Ziglar 00:30:06.019 --> 00:30:09.940 book and not hear his voice. You can make this 00:30:09.940 --> 00:30:14.440 sale. You feel like he's talking to you when 00:30:14.440 --> 00:30:16.759 you're reading it. Yeah, he was very good at 00:30:16.759 --> 00:30:19.740 what he did. Yes, absolutely. Well, well, John, 00:30:19.859 --> 00:30:22.900 what, what would you say was the hardest part 00:30:22.900 --> 00:30:26.259 to write? Now, when I say hard, I'm really more 00:30:26.259 --> 00:30:29.140 thinking about not, not like technically, but 00:30:29.140 --> 00:30:32.039 I'm thinking more about like spiritually or emotionally. 00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:34.000 What, what was the, what was the part that was 00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:42.140 hard for you to wrestle with? Really? Probably 00:30:42.140 --> 00:30:48.799 the last chapter, no more here. Because it reminds 00:30:48.799 --> 00:30:54.720 me of suffering that I've seen. Reminds me of, 00:30:54.819 --> 00:30:58.079 you know, my mother passed away in 02. So you 00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:03.460 can't write a book like that and not be mindful 00:31:03.460 --> 00:31:06.559 of the suffering that your mother went through. 00:31:06.619 --> 00:31:11.500 She went through cancer, had a son, my little 00:31:11.500 --> 00:31:16.900 brother, who is severely autistic. And I can 00:31:16.900 --> 00:31:18.759 tell you some stories about him someday. It'll 00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:22.839 change your life. But just the battles that she 00:31:22.839 --> 00:31:27.140 went through and died about a month shy of her 00:31:27.140 --> 00:31:33.160 52nd birthday. Yeah. And I was very close to 00:31:33.160 --> 00:31:37.339 my mom and just never ready for that. So when 00:31:37.339 --> 00:31:39.980 I was writing that chapter, I was mindful of 00:31:39.980 --> 00:31:43.839 that. Yeah. And of course, I had no way of knowing 00:31:43.839 --> 00:31:47.700 that. after i submitted the book to the publisher 00:31:47.700 --> 00:31:51.920 that my mother -in -law would die as well and 00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:55.960 only 65 so my wife has struggled and still struggles 00:31:55.960 --> 00:31:59.579 to some extent through that so yeah that's probably 00:31:59.579 --> 00:32:04.579 not just in that chapter but in other chapters 00:32:04.579 --> 00:32:07.619 i was reminded of my mom and that's always yeah 00:32:07.619 --> 00:32:10.240 you know there's joy there because you're reminded 00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:12.539 of what a wonderful mother you had but there's 00:32:12.539 --> 00:32:16.740 also a sorrow there that You miss her. It's been 00:32:16.740 --> 00:32:19.000 a long time since she's passed. Right. And one 00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:21.180 of the things that I love, again, the scripture, 00:32:21.299 --> 00:32:23.880 and I've shared a lot of funerals out of Thessalonians 00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:26.960 where God says, you know, we do not grieve like 00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:30.039 those who have no hope. But I point out, it doesn't 00:32:30.039 --> 00:32:32.400 say we don't grieve. It just says we don't grieve 00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:35.319 in that way. We don't grieve without hope. We 00:32:35.319 --> 00:32:38.220 grieve with hope. And again, that biblical hope, 00:32:38.319 --> 00:32:41.400 which is that assurity that, you know, they belong 00:32:41.400 --> 00:32:45.400 to Christ. They're with her. Amen. And you're 00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:47.660 right. Sorrow is a natural part of life. And 00:32:47.660 --> 00:32:52.180 our Savior knows what it is to sorrow. And that's 00:32:52.180 --> 00:32:54.500 why one of the reasons I put that chapter in 00:32:54.500 --> 00:32:59.400 the book, does Jesus care? Yeah. Because he does, 00:32:59.619 --> 00:33:02.500 and he knows exactly what it is to suffer. Yeah. 00:33:02.900 --> 00:33:07.079 More so than any of us, actually. And I love, 00:33:07.099 --> 00:33:09.420 too, the reality, like with Jesus in the garden, 00:33:09.559 --> 00:33:13.069 right? Jesus is asking the Father. You know, 00:33:13.109 --> 00:33:15.750 if there's another way, let's do it that way. 00:33:15.930 --> 00:33:18.430 Again, I'm severely paraphrasing there, but, 00:33:18.470 --> 00:33:21.069 you know, he's... That's the message. I mean, 00:33:21.089 --> 00:33:23.740 that's what he means, yeah. Yeah, but... Do we 00:33:23.740 --> 00:33:25.900 have to do this? But not my will, yours. Which 00:33:25.900 --> 00:33:29.880 I think is a beautiful gift to us as believers. 00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:32.880 Because sometimes we get the idea that, oh, I 00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:35.700 should just be like, oh, I'm suffering. Yay. 00:33:37.079 --> 00:33:42.460 Right. It's okay. And see, to me, Brad, that's 00:33:42.460 --> 00:33:45.619 the issue that I dealt with. And I was one of 00:33:45.619 --> 00:33:48.680 the ones who was, you know, coming back to the 00:33:48.680 --> 00:33:52.299 passing of my wife's brother. This is one of 00:33:52.299 --> 00:33:54.579 the issues that even I began to deal with after 00:33:54.579 --> 00:33:58.420 kind of the dust settled emotionally for me that 00:33:58.420 --> 00:34:01.259 I had, I'm not going to say bought it because 00:34:01.259 --> 00:34:03.099 I know it was true. I mean, God's sovereign. 00:34:03.359 --> 00:34:08.539 I knew it was true that Adam's death was planned 00:34:08.539 --> 00:34:12.000 by God. And if there's a skeptic listening to 00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:14.619 this, don't take that for what you think that 00:34:14.619 --> 00:34:17.099 it might mean. But the issue that I began to 00:34:17.099 --> 00:34:20.480 deal with was I started, I was saying, you know, 00:34:21.190 --> 00:34:23.769 Yeah, it's tragic, but God has a plan. And I 00:34:23.769 --> 00:34:28.989 remember thinking, how insensitive of my own 00:34:28.989 --> 00:34:35.050 feelings am I actually being? I'm not facing 00:34:35.050 --> 00:34:39.269 the fact that, Brad, it is absolutely okay to 00:34:39.269 --> 00:34:41.710 grieve. It is a hundred percent. Okay. It is 00:34:41.710 --> 00:34:43.170 a hundred percent. Okay. To get on your knees 00:34:43.170 --> 00:34:45.829 and pound the ground and say, why the heck did 00:34:45.829 --> 00:34:48.630 this happen? Like, you know, like, and I think, 00:34:48.650 --> 00:34:52.849 I think far too often in, in I'll say in evangelical 00:34:52.849 --> 00:34:58.449 culture, there's, and I can't pinpoint why maybe, 00:34:58.489 --> 00:35:00.210 maybe either one of you have, you know, might 00:35:00.210 --> 00:35:01.570 have some insight in this, but I can't pinpoint 00:35:01.570 --> 00:35:04.789 why, but it seems like there is this unwritten 00:35:04.789 --> 00:35:09.659 type of philosophy. where when bad things happen, 00:35:09.880 --> 00:35:12.159 Christians still need to display the kind of 00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:13.900 joy that they had yesterday before the bad thing 00:35:13.900 --> 00:35:19.780 happened. Yeah. Jesus didn't walk into the Garden 00:35:19.780 --> 00:35:22.840 of Gethsemane going, dude, I'm ready. I'm ramped. 00:35:23.539 --> 00:35:27.559 Can't wait to go to a cross. Can't wait to be 00:35:27.559 --> 00:35:29.119 nailed to a cross and suffer and die. I'm going 00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:32.320 to get beaten. You're like, no. Right. And I 00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:36.199 think sometimes we misinterpret people like Paul. 00:35:36.650 --> 00:35:38.710 who goes, all right, then I'll celebrate kind 00:35:38.710 --> 00:35:43.650 of my weakness. I think we mistake joy and happiness. 00:35:43.650 --> 00:35:48.530 We get them mixed up. Joy is so much deeper and 00:35:48.530 --> 00:35:51.610 truer and more substantial than happiness ever 00:35:51.610 --> 00:35:54.349 thought about. Happiness is emotion. You can 00:35:54.349 --> 00:36:00.030 have joy when you are bound up, having been beaten. 00:36:01.369 --> 00:36:03.769 Probably not very comfortable, probably either 00:36:03.769 --> 00:36:06.369 too hot or too cold in a prison cell while you're 00:36:06.369 --> 00:36:09.289 singing praises to God. Because joy, I think, 00:36:09.389 --> 00:36:12.130 is against the understanding of that truth and 00:36:12.130 --> 00:36:14.309 then the emotions that go with it. But you don't 00:36:14.309 --> 00:36:17.030 have to feel happy. And I think you don't have 00:36:17.030 --> 00:36:20.530 to feel happy to worship. Amen. Matter of fact, 00:36:20.690 --> 00:36:22.949 sometimes I think some of the more truer worship 00:36:22.949 --> 00:36:27.409 that we can give to God is when we feel the opposite 00:36:27.409 --> 00:36:29.690 of happy. Like we're sad, we're depressed, we're 00:36:29.690 --> 00:36:33.219 discouraged. But we still go, you know, and again, 00:36:33.280 --> 00:36:35.199 I look at David in the Psalm, I think it's Psalm 00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:38.159 13, when he's basically like, are you going to 00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:40.820 forget me forever, God? Right. It's exactly right. 00:36:40.820 --> 00:36:45.099 Yeah, those are, and I tell you, I can't, I honestly, 00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:47.019 now I've forgotten, I can't remember if I put 00:36:47.019 --> 00:36:50.380 this in the book or not, but talking about worshiping 00:36:50.380 --> 00:36:55.800 in the midst of suffering, a memory that's etched 00:36:55.800 --> 00:37:01.429 into my mind forever. is after my mother breathed 00:37:01.429 --> 00:37:06.289 her last breath. And thankfully, me and my siblings 00:37:06.289 --> 00:37:10.250 and our spouses were all able to be there around 00:37:10.250 --> 00:37:14.110 her bedside. And she breathed her last breath. 00:37:14.329 --> 00:37:18.170 And my dad got up, walked out of the bedroom, 00:37:18.369 --> 00:37:22.610 into the hallway. And I heard him through tears 00:37:22.610 --> 00:37:26.750 pray, Oh, Father, we know you do all things well. 00:37:27.820 --> 00:37:32.760 And I mean, that that my dad, I think he gave 00:37:32.760 --> 00:37:36.199 me a bigger gift right there than he realizes. 00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:40.639 Yeah. Because like you said, DJ, it's one thing 00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:43.760 to say, yeah, that's what the Bible says. But 00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:46.500 when you're in the middle of suffering. Yeah. 00:37:46.619 --> 00:37:51.219 Then it becomes when it gets difficult. Yeah. 00:37:53.129 --> 00:37:56.030 Well, and again, one of the things that, because 00:37:56.030 --> 00:37:57.469 I think you did mention that book because it 00:37:57.469 --> 00:38:05.130 sounds familiar to me. God is not in heaven wringing 00:38:05.130 --> 00:38:08.269 his hands and drinking Maalox. Amen. That was 00:38:08.269 --> 00:38:11.010 one of my favorite quotes in the book. I wrote 00:38:11.010 --> 00:38:15.349 that down. I starred it in my notes. Awesome. 00:38:15.610 --> 00:38:20.289 Put that in the bulletin next week. Yeah. There's 00:38:20.289 --> 00:38:23.469 your title for a sermon. There you go. Easy. 00:38:24.170 --> 00:38:27.170 He's not asleep at the switch. He knows exactly 00:38:27.170 --> 00:38:32.199 what he's doing. I love the script. Some of my 00:38:32.199 --> 00:38:35.139 favorite scripts are very simple. And God remembered 00:38:35.139 --> 00:38:39.139 Noah. And God remembered Abraham. Because when 00:38:39.139 --> 00:38:43.099 I realized that God is not like us, right? When 00:38:43.099 --> 00:38:45.739 I remember where I put my keys, it's because 00:38:45.739 --> 00:38:48.539 I forgot. You had previously not known where 00:38:48.539 --> 00:38:50.239 you knew. Yeah, that's exactly right. But when 00:38:50.239 --> 00:38:52.159 it says God remembered, it means that he didn't 00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:55.369 forget. Yeah, amen. And he never forgot. He didn't 00:38:55.369 --> 00:38:58.510 misplace it and go, oh, man, I've let it rain 00:38:58.510 --> 00:39:04.750 for a long time. I almost forgot. Amen. But God 00:39:04.750 --> 00:39:09.250 remembered. And I think that, again, as we grow 00:39:09.250 --> 00:39:12.230 in Christ and our relationship with him, our 00:39:12.230 --> 00:39:16.239 knowledge of him, we learn more about. I think 00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:21.480 in who he truly is, that we can take hope in 00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:24.159 that, even in those times of deep suffering, 00:39:24.300 --> 00:39:29.000 that I'm not alone, I'm not abandoned. And whatever 00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:31.920 I'm going through, no matter how difficult and 00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:34.820 how much I would rather that cup pass from me, 00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:40.900 that I can express that. And again, just echoing 00:39:40.900 --> 00:39:42.860 Christ, but not my will, your will be done. And 00:39:42.860 --> 00:39:44.300 so it's okay for me to say, God, I don't want 00:39:44.300 --> 00:39:49.860 this. Yeah. I, you know, this is, this is not 00:39:49.860 --> 00:39:52.320 what I want. And that, and to that point, Brad, 00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:56.219 like when you said, God, I don't want this. I, 00:39:56.300 --> 00:39:58.699 you know, I put myself visually, I put myself 00:39:58.699 --> 00:40:03.699 in, in the, in the line of, I know I'm about 00:40:03.699 --> 00:40:06.719 to pass through a valley of the shadow of death. 00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:11.400 And if in the case, I remember before I walk 00:40:11.400 --> 00:40:14.519 in, if I remember, you know, This is about to 00:40:14.519 --> 00:40:18.099 happen. But I know at some point, you know, God 00:40:18.099 --> 00:40:19.719 has promised that he's going to set the table 00:40:19.719 --> 00:40:23.559 before me in the presence of my enemies. And 00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:26.420 when you said that, I don't like all of a sudden 00:40:26.420 --> 00:40:28.980 I had the thought that's never popped in my mind 00:40:28.980 --> 00:40:31.780 before. Even when I'm sitting at the table in 00:40:31.780 --> 00:40:33.980 the presence of my enemies, it doesn't change 00:40:33.980 --> 00:40:35.800 the fact that I still don't want to be in the 00:40:35.800 --> 00:40:39.219 valley. Amen. This table doesn't make things. 00:40:39.559 --> 00:40:42.159 doesn't it's not like it's not like i'm trying 00:40:42.159 --> 00:40:46.039 to uh how do i say it i'm not i'm not going to 00:40:46.039 --> 00:40:49.719 find a scenario where i'm going to give my approval 00:40:49.719 --> 00:40:52.639 to god for sending me through the valley of the 00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:55.860 shadow of death he is providing what i need to 00:40:55.860 --> 00:40:59.780 get through by setting the table but that still 00:40:59.780 --> 00:41:02.519 doesn't mean that oh okay well i get it now i'm 00:41:02.519 --> 00:41:06.590 fine No, it still sucks. And as an introvert, 00:41:06.630 --> 00:41:09.630 the idea of my enemies watching me eat is making 00:41:09.630 --> 00:41:15.070 me uncomfortable. That's my personality. I know 00:41:15.070 --> 00:41:17.150 some people will be eating like, yeah, ha, ha, 00:41:17.150 --> 00:41:22.429 ha. Yeah, I'm like, yeah. Not me at all. Can 00:41:22.429 --> 00:41:24.510 you make them not be looking at me, God? I'm 00:41:24.510 --> 00:41:26.809 going to be staring them in the eyes like, look, 00:41:26.829 --> 00:41:29.150 I'm here. You don't get this. And I still don't 00:41:29.150 --> 00:41:30.530 want to be here. So I'm going to savor every 00:41:30.530 --> 00:41:37.210 bite. As my daughter says, secondhand embarrassment. 00:41:39.590 --> 00:41:46.909 I'm embarrassed for you guys. Empathy is a great 00:41:46.909 --> 00:41:50.769 thing and sometimes it's not. all right so so 00:41:50.769 --> 00:41:52.750 that's a different book so you know yeah this 00:41:52.750 --> 00:41:54.929 is a different book but uh brad i want to say 00:41:54.929 --> 00:41:56.949 something um john i've got a question for you 00:41:56.949 --> 00:41:58.730 i know it's not one that that we sent you but 00:41:58.730 --> 00:42:02.170 it is absolutely in line with the conversation 00:42:02.170 --> 00:42:04.989 that we've been having to this point and i don't 00:42:04.989 --> 00:42:06.730 think it was this past sunday i think it was 00:42:06.730 --> 00:42:08.849 two sundays ago where our pastor mentioned something 00:42:08.849 --> 00:42:13.989 relating to the topic of suffering um excuse 00:42:13.989 --> 00:42:19.320 me and what he said was empathy And sympathy 00:42:19.320 --> 00:42:23.300 are different. We have, excuse me, not, not empathy, 00:42:23.400 --> 00:42:26.559 compassion. He said that we have sympathy. You 00:42:26.559 --> 00:42:29.260 know, if, if, and I'm just going to put myself 00:42:29.260 --> 00:42:31.199 in the mercy of the court here. If I were to, 00:42:31.239 --> 00:42:34.199 if, if, if I hear of, well, it's, you know, the 00:42:34.199 --> 00:42:36.000 tornadoes that, that passed through Somerset. 00:42:36.940 --> 00:42:40.860 My Brad, Brad knows this, that, that my, my mom's 00:42:40.860 --> 00:42:43.000 parents lived in Somerset for years and years 00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:45.599 and years. And so like that place has a special 00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:50.860 place in my heart. Sure. But if I'm honest, I 00:42:50.860 --> 00:42:53.159 was not filled with so much compassion that I've 00:42:53.159 --> 00:42:56.860 dropped everything that I've got to go up. And 00:42:56.860 --> 00:42:59.559 like, if anybody wants some ammunition to point 00:42:59.559 --> 00:43:01.199 against me, there you go. I just gave it to you. 00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:05.940 But the idea is I'm sympathetic for them. Like, 00:43:05.960 --> 00:43:09.860 oh, you know, I'll lift up a prayer or two, maybe 00:43:09.860 --> 00:43:12.320 three, and then I'll continue going about my 00:43:12.320 --> 00:43:17.969 life. And would you agree? John, that people 00:43:17.969 --> 00:43:21.809 in general, when we are experiencing suffering 00:43:21.809 --> 00:43:24.429 secondhand, right? If we're on the outskirts 00:43:24.429 --> 00:43:29.130 and we're looking in, do that people in general 00:43:29.130 --> 00:43:33.909 try to be sympathetic but not compassionate? 00:43:35.510 --> 00:43:38.329 What would you have to say about that? Yeah, 00:43:38.329 --> 00:43:46.989 and that's a sharp distinction to make. But I 00:43:46.989 --> 00:43:49.590 can see where the pastor was coming from. Sure. 00:43:49.710 --> 00:43:54.610 Because you're not always able to put yourself 00:43:54.610 --> 00:43:56.789 in the position of the one that's suffering. 00:43:57.050 --> 00:44:04.070 Right. And it doesn't mean as much as it would 00:44:04.070 --> 00:44:07.010 if you were going through the suffering. Now, 00:44:07.010 --> 00:44:12.429 what happens as you suffer in your life and then 00:44:12.429 --> 00:44:15.429 you witness others go through similar suffering. 00:44:16.090 --> 00:44:20.489 then it becomes a whole lot easier to be compassionate. 00:44:22.030 --> 00:44:24.829 And can I say on the other end of the spectrum, 00:44:24.969 --> 00:44:28.050 right, is sometimes that we can get so weighted 00:44:28.050 --> 00:44:31.849 down because we are carrying the weight of everybody's 00:44:31.849 --> 00:44:36.389 suffering. And that's where I can be guilty and 00:44:36.389 --> 00:44:40.989 I can't handle it. It will cause me to be discouraged 00:44:40.989 --> 00:44:43.440 and depressed. And one of the things my dad always 00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:45.340 said to me, and I'm sure we've talked about this 00:44:45.340 --> 00:44:47.860 on the show before, he would see me in those 00:44:47.860 --> 00:44:50.039 moments and we'd be talking about it. He'd say, 00:44:50.199 --> 00:44:53.639 sounds like you're carrying the weight of the 00:44:53.639 --> 00:44:56.400 whole world on your shoulders. And I'd say, yeah. 00:44:56.880 --> 00:45:01.659 And he'd say, Jesus already did that. Amen. And 00:45:01.659 --> 00:45:05.079 so there's the other end. Again, you've got the, 00:45:05.079 --> 00:45:09.760 oh, kind of calloused or, hey, too bad that happened 00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:12.739 to you. But then you can go too far on the other 00:45:12.739 --> 00:45:15.840 end and just take too much of it on yourself. 00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:19.239 And then you realize how small you are. Right. 00:45:19.320 --> 00:45:22.039 How how little that you were not able to bear 00:45:22.039 --> 00:45:27.440 it. Right. And even like financially and physically, 00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:31.920 you know, I can't go out and because I sometimes 00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:34.239 won't try to fix the situation myself. Sure. 00:45:36.099 --> 00:45:39.500 When when God is the ultimate fix and then God 00:45:39.500 --> 00:45:42.219 is going to use his church. Now, you know, one 00:45:42.219 --> 00:45:44.219 of the things that my wife has to remind me is 00:45:44.219 --> 00:45:46.739 I'm not the only soldier in God's army. Right, 00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:50.900 man. Yeah. And I'm definitely not the savior. 00:45:51.300 --> 00:45:53.780 So he's not calling me to be the main character 00:45:53.780 --> 00:46:00.039 in his book. Yeah. Hey, Brad, you were needed. 00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:02.789 No, but. but it's an honor when God does choose 00:46:02.789 --> 00:46:04.869 to use us. And I think we've got to be readily, 00:46:05.030 --> 00:46:07.949 you know, ready to do that and to help where 00:46:07.949 --> 00:46:10.630 we can. But yeah. So again, it's that balance 00:46:10.630 --> 00:46:15.250 of right. Sure. My wife is a lot similar to you 00:46:15.250 --> 00:46:18.409 in that regard. She, the sufferings that other 00:46:18.409 --> 00:46:22.190 people go through, she just, she carries it. 00:46:22.210 --> 00:46:25.070 It gets so heavy on her. And, and there's a blessing 00:46:25.070 --> 00:46:28.730 of that because if, if I'm counseling someone, 00:46:28.889 --> 00:46:33.429 it's a great benefit. Sure. My wife there as 00:46:33.429 --> 00:46:35.570 I'm counseling because she provides such a great 00:46:35.570 --> 00:46:38.630 benefit for it. But the other side of that is 00:46:38.630 --> 00:46:42.309 she has to be careful because, you know, she'll 00:46:42.309 --> 00:46:45.050 get really discouraged. Yeah. Because she feels 00:46:45.050 --> 00:46:49.909 it so heavily. Yeah. And I'm still learning how 00:46:49.909 --> 00:46:54.349 to, again, take God up on his cast all of these 00:46:54.349 --> 00:46:57.309 things on Jesus because he cares for you. And 00:46:57.309 --> 00:46:59.690 I've. I've come to the conclusion that sometimes 00:46:59.690 --> 00:47:02.650 it's like a yo -yo and it keeps coming. It's 00:47:02.650 --> 00:47:07.030 like it's stuck to me. So sometimes I just got 00:47:07.030 --> 00:47:11.210 to sit at his feet with it. God, I can't seem 00:47:11.210 --> 00:47:13.369 to get it off. So I'm just going to sit here 00:47:13.369 --> 00:47:19.170 with you and pray and be in your presence and 00:47:19.170 --> 00:47:23.829 ask you. Hey, Father. Hey, Dad. Could you help 00:47:23.829 --> 00:47:27.269 me? I think I super glued it to me. Yeah, amen. 00:47:27.690 --> 00:47:31.190 Can you get it off? Because I can't. But he's 00:47:31.190 --> 00:47:34.409 always faithful. And he will use those times 00:47:34.409 --> 00:47:37.530 again, too, though. He'll use those times of 00:47:37.530 --> 00:47:40.769 that suffering, of that discouragement, of that 00:47:40.769 --> 00:47:44.530 depression, again, in counseling others and helping 00:47:44.530 --> 00:47:48.050 others. Because, hey, when God has brought you 00:47:48.050 --> 00:47:52.510 through and out, and even though, again, with 00:47:52.510 --> 00:47:55.309 me, sometimes I end up falling back. into that 00:47:55.309 --> 00:47:57.949 same place of discouragement or depression but 00:47:57.949 --> 00:48:03.530 i know better where to you know where to go and 00:48:03.530 --> 00:48:06.530 where to turn and and how to navigate those things 00:48:06.530 --> 00:48:10.869 because i've told a lot of people when depression 00:48:10.869 --> 00:48:15.269 if if i see you two days later and you're like 00:48:15.269 --> 00:48:18.619 oh my life's great everything's awesome I know 00:48:18.619 --> 00:48:21.019 you're lying because depression doesn't, you 00:48:21.019 --> 00:48:23.820 know, typically doesn't just, you don't pop out 00:48:23.820 --> 00:48:27.139 of it. You wade out of it. Like you were in deep 00:48:27.139 --> 00:48:30.099 water and you kind of wade out and yeah, you're 00:48:30.099 --> 00:48:33.900 feeling more and more of the sunshine, but you 00:48:33.900 --> 00:48:35.940 get out of there and God's with you every step 00:48:35.940 --> 00:48:39.400 of the way. And through this whole conversation, 00:48:39.599 --> 00:48:41.340 Brad, as you were talking, it just occurred to 00:48:41.340 --> 00:48:46.500 me that at least in my experience with the topic 00:48:46.500 --> 00:48:50.659 of suffering, The issue that is dealt with the 00:48:50.659 --> 00:48:52.619 most, whether it's me thinking about it or whether 00:48:52.619 --> 00:48:55.639 it's conversations like this that I've had, it 00:48:55.639 --> 00:48:59.780 seems that everybody is so focused on the fact 00:48:59.780 --> 00:49:01.980 that they are going through suffering, which 00:49:01.980 --> 00:49:05.719 is legit. But what we fail to acknowledge and 00:49:05.719 --> 00:49:08.559 certainly what I have failed to acknowledge in 00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:12.380 my life, I've noticed and people around me doing 00:49:12.380 --> 00:49:17.699 the same is we're like not reaching out. John, 00:49:17.719 --> 00:49:19.920 like you have with this book, not reaching out 00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:22.880 with what I have suffered through to help other 00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:25.559 people suffer through it. You know, and so like 00:49:25.559 --> 00:49:28.320 suffering at that point in time, if we think 00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:32.500 about the legitimacy of Job's suffering, unfair? 00:49:32.920 --> 00:49:36.599 I mean, maybe, but that's not the topic, right? 00:49:36.820 --> 00:49:41.320 The issue is, did Job suffer? Yes. Did his friends 00:49:41.320 --> 00:49:44.000 help him, granted, as best as they could, but 00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:47.719 still? wrongly yes but not only was job better 00:49:47.719 --> 00:49:49.960 for it but so were they at the end of it oh no 00:49:49.960 --> 00:49:53.460 kidding right and so and so as we as we make 00:49:53.460 --> 00:49:56.840 it through suffering i think far too often in 00:49:56.840 --> 00:49:59.480 my life i have wanted to retreat away from the 00:49:59.480 --> 00:50:01.219 suffering so i don't have to worry about it anymore 00:50:01.219 --> 00:50:02.619 i don't want to think about it i don't want i 00:50:02.619 --> 00:50:04.719 just need to get away from it the problem is 00:50:04.719 --> 00:50:07.980 that on the other end of suffering i now have 00:50:07.980 --> 00:50:11.559 been empowered So if I so choose, or if I, if 00:50:11.559 --> 00:50:14.099 I, if I'm willing to submit, I have, I like, 00:50:14.099 --> 00:50:16.920 I'm empowered to help somebody else through that 00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:19.880 suffering event, because John, as you, as you 00:50:19.880 --> 00:50:21.119 mentioned, you know, as you were, as you were 00:50:21.119 --> 00:50:23.059 writing the book, like you said that you were, 00:50:23.059 --> 00:50:26.320 you were thinking about being able to, to, to 00:50:26.320 --> 00:50:29.300 work yourself emotionally through the death of 00:50:29.300 --> 00:50:33.280 your mom. you're better for those particular 00:50:33.280 --> 00:50:37.039 moments where you get to offer the kind of the 00:50:37.039 --> 00:50:40.860 kind of of respite almost that may not have actually 00:50:40.860 --> 00:50:43.559 directly come from god like we hope that it would 00:50:43.559 --> 00:50:46.159 i mean you know because brad and i mentioned 00:50:46.159 --> 00:50:48.400 uh here recently on one of our one of our recent 00:50:48.400 --> 00:50:52.500 shows that um you know galatians 6 2 says brothers 00:50:52.500 --> 00:50:53.940 bear each other's burdens therefore fulfilling 00:50:53.940 --> 00:50:57.739 the law of christ And part of, I believe, part 00:50:57.739 --> 00:51:00.639 of God providing respite and encouragement and 00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:04.820 breath during suffering is not just him snapping 00:51:04.820 --> 00:51:08.639 his fingers, but rather him providing that through 00:51:08.639 --> 00:51:11.619 other people around us that know precisely what 00:51:11.619 --> 00:51:15.159 we're going through. Amen. Amen. And you know, 00:51:15.300 --> 00:51:19.239 I think a lot about Charles Spurgeon, the Prince 00:51:19.239 --> 00:51:22.949 of Preachers, went through great... bouts of 00:51:22.949 --> 00:51:29.210 depression. And it cannot be ignored that perhaps 00:51:29.210 --> 00:51:31.989 one of the reasons he was such an effective preacher 00:51:31.989 --> 00:51:37.630 is because of his suffering. And in fact, the 00:51:37.630 --> 00:51:41.369 story is told in one of his biographies that 00:51:41.369 --> 00:51:45.050 he was under such depression on one particular 00:51:45.050 --> 00:51:47.429 Sunday that he wouldn't preach. He took the Sunday 00:51:47.429 --> 00:51:51.820 off, went to a church in the country. that he 00:51:51.820 --> 00:51:53.659 had had some history with. I think he grew up 00:51:53.659 --> 00:51:56.059 there or something. I forget how the story goes 00:51:56.059 --> 00:51:58.760 now. But he sat in the back of the church, and 00:51:58.760 --> 00:52:02.380 the pastor of that church preached one of Spurgeon's 00:52:02.380 --> 00:52:07.059 sermons word for word. And Spurgeon received 00:52:07.059 --> 00:52:10.119 such great comfort from that. And the pastor, 00:52:10.159 --> 00:52:12.780 when he saw him after the service, he apologized. 00:52:13.039 --> 00:52:16.039 Of course, Brother Spurgeon told him, hey, no, 00:52:16.139 --> 00:52:23.519 no, God used my own. I don't think I'll ever 00:52:23.519 --> 00:52:25.320 have to worry about somebody plagiarizing one 00:52:25.320 --> 00:52:28.639 of mine. Yeah, I probably don't have to worry 00:52:28.639 --> 00:52:32.860 too much about that either. One of my favorite 00:52:32.860 --> 00:52:35.639 quotes from Spurgeon is he said, I've learned 00:52:35.639 --> 00:52:39.280 to kiss the waves that have thrown me against 00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:43.820 the rock of ages. And yeah, something like that. 00:52:43.860 --> 00:52:45.699 Again, I'm horrible with direct quotes. But I 00:52:45.699 --> 00:52:48.719 mean, again, as someone who has and continues 00:52:48.719 --> 00:52:51.699 to go through cycles of depression and stuff, 00:52:51.739 --> 00:52:55.340 it's just a reality for me. And again, I've seen 00:52:55.340 --> 00:52:58.659 how God has used that in me. And he's used that 00:52:58.659 --> 00:53:03.320 to help others to the point where I just recently 00:53:03.320 --> 00:53:09.679 was visiting someone who was just, again, I don't 00:53:09.679 --> 00:53:11.300 want to get too much in the situation, but was 00:53:11.300 --> 00:53:15.460 really struggling with depression. And as I was 00:53:15.460 --> 00:53:20.079 leaving, I just really thanked God for one of 00:53:20.079 --> 00:53:23.139 the darkest. times in my life, which happened 00:53:23.139 --> 00:53:26.639 about 10 years ago and where I was just probably 00:53:26.639 --> 00:53:29.719 at the lowest that I had ever been. And just 00:53:29.719 --> 00:53:32.039 thanked him for that and for bringing me through 00:53:32.039 --> 00:53:35.239 that, because I was able, you know, to say and 00:53:35.239 --> 00:53:41.019 hopefully help this person, you know, that. Look 00:53:41.019 --> 00:53:45.260 here, when I hit rock bottom, when I hit my darkest 00:53:45.260 --> 00:53:49.510 day, you know, God hadn't abandoned me. He didn't 00:53:49.510 --> 00:53:52.929 abandon me and he led me through it. And he didn't, 00:53:52.929 --> 00:53:55.650 again, he didn't snap his fingers. And the next 00:53:55.650 --> 00:53:58.269 day after I realized that it was beautiful and 00:53:58.269 --> 00:54:01.829 it was great. No, it was, it was, it was, it 00:54:01.829 --> 00:54:06.289 was a, a value of the deepest darkness. It was 00:54:06.289 --> 00:54:11.730 walking out of, of where I had found myself in 00:54:11.730 --> 00:54:14.190 and then realizing that my shepherd was there 00:54:14.190 --> 00:54:18.539 the whole way. Amen. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I tell 00:54:18.539 --> 00:54:21.960 you, I think if I had a Spurgeon beard like yourself, 00:54:22.119 --> 00:54:25.400 I'd probably never get depressed. Right? I mean, 00:54:25.420 --> 00:54:29.719 I can't grow anything. Look at me. So here's 00:54:29.719 --> 00:54:32.260 the thing, John. I wish that I could actually 00:54:32.260 --> 00:54:34.800 grow a beard like that. I can't get past the... 00:54:35.099 --> 00:54:39.380 Once you pass the stubble stage, it gets so itchy 00:54:39.380 --> 00:54:41.780 that you want to rip the skin off your skull. 00:54:42.019 --> 00:54:44.820 And that's where I draw the line. I can't even 00:54:44.820 --> 00:54:48.719 get to the stubble stage. If I were to let all 00:54:48.719 --> 00:54:51.519 this, everything go for a couple of weeks, I'd 00:54:51.519 --> 00:54:53.920 just look like some creepy, besant 12 -year -old 00:54:53.920 --> 00:54:58.679 that thinks he's tough. Peach fuzz. So, John, 00:54:58.699 --> 00:55:03.659 where can people that are listening to the show, 00:55:03.780 --> 00:55:09.199 where can they both find you and your book? All 00:55:09.199 --> 00:55:12.300 right. So they can find me on Facebook, John 00:55:12.300 --> 00:55:15.639 R. Kirkendall. I'll spell that because it doesn't 00:55:15.639 --> 00:55:20.019 look like it sounds. It is K -U -Y -K -E -N. 00:55:20.719 --> 00:55:25.860 D -A -L -L. And I'm the pastor of Pilgrim's Rest 00:55:25.860 --> 00:55:28.599 Baptist Church in Hillsborough, Missouri. You 00:55:28.599 --> 00:55:31.280 can find us on Facebook and on the web as well. 00:55:31.659 --> 00:55:35.059 The book is available at redeemingfamilypress 00:55:35.059 --> 00:55:38.800 .com. That's the best price you're going to get 00:55:38.800 --> 00:55:41.300 is from the publisher, Redeeming Family Press. 00:55:41.579 --> 00:55:45.019 It's also available on Amazon and I think probably 00:55:45.019 --> 00:55:51.360 Books A Million and Barnes & Noble. But if you're 00:55:51.360 --> 00:55:53.940 searching for it on Amazon, you'll have to enter 00:55:53.940 --> 00:55:57.599 my full name, John R. Kirkendall, and then the 00:55:57.599 --> 00:56:01.139 full title, Beyond the Shadows, A Theology of 00:56:01.139 --> 00:56:03.880 Suffering and Hope. But that's where it is, and 00:56:03.880 --> 00:56:05.820 I hope you read it, and I hope you're encouraged 00:56:05.820 --> 00:56:11.460 by it. Yeah. Well, dude, thank you so much for 00:56:11.460 --> 00:56:13.840 joining us. Thanks for having me. Oh, it's been 00:56:13.840 --> 00:56:18.480 a pleasure. Great joy. Yeah. So, listeners, you 00:56:18.480 --> 00:56:21.679 heard it here. Go check out Beyond Suffering 00:56:21.679 --> 00:56:28.059 Theology. Sorry, I did it again. Beyond the Shadows. 00:56:28.239 --> 00:56:30.239 Beyond the Shadows, The Theology of Suffering 00:56:30.239 --> 00:56:32.500 and Hope. If you're in the Hillsborough area, 00:56:32.719 --> 00:56:35.639 I have a few copies I can give you. Stop by the 00:56:35.639 --> 00:56:38.480 church sometime, and I'd be happy to meet you 00:56:38.480 --> 00:56:41.239 and give you a copy. How far away is Hillsborough 00:56:41.239 --> 00:56:44.659 from Murphy? How far apart are you guys? 20 or 00:56:44.659 --> 00:56:46.880 30 minutes, maybe. Somewhere in between there. 00:56:46.880 --> 00:56:49.760 There you go. If you were in the area. Yeah. 00:56:49.960 --> 00:56:53.219 Go grab, go grab, go grab like a free copy. Yeah. 00:56:53.280 --> 00:56:56.099 That's right. But, but yeah, it's been, I didn't 00:56:56.099 --> 00:57:00.400 say free. DJ said he would pay for it for you 00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:08.239 to grab a copy. That's fair. Yeah. Sorry. I don't, 00:57:08.260 --> 00:57:09.920 I'm not an LLC. I don't have like, I can't give 00:57:09.920 --> 00:57:11.360 you an invoice. You know, I don't have an EIN. 00:57:13.529 --> 00:57:15.909 But listeners, we thank you so much for tuning 00:57:15.909 --> 00:57:19.869 in today for our very first interview. Again, 00:57:20.030 --> 00:57:22.829 John, thank you so much, man, for being on the 00:57:22.829 --> 00:57:24.409 show and hanging out with us. Thank you. It was 00:57:24.409 --> 00:57:27.090 my honor. Listeners, you know what to do. You 00:57:27.090 --> 00:57:29.269 know where to find us. You can follow us on our 00:57:29.269 --> 00:57:32.500 Facebook group page. men church stuff um we've 00:57:32.500 --> 00:57:35.079 got an instagram at men church stuff uh email 00:57:35.079 --> 00:57:38.440 us remember there is a uh we're currently still 00:57:38.440 --> 00:57:41.880 taking um funny church stories john we'd love 00:57:41.880 --> 00:57:44.340 i mean as a pastor feel free to email us one 00:57:44.340 --> 00:57:47.119 or two of them oh yeah yeah absolutely um but 00:57:47.119 --> 00:57:51.070 but email your funny for any church stories to 00:57:51.070 --> 00:57:54.429 me and Brad. Our email is menschurchstuff at 00:57:54.429 --> 00:57:57.809 gmail .com. Brad, I am in the process right now, 00:57:57.949 --> 00:58:02.510 like currently as we speak, of getting even just 00:58:02.510 --> 00:58:05.670 a basic shell of a website up so that we've got 00:58:05.670 --> 00:58:09.809 something to kind of centralize everything for 00:58:09.809 --> 00:58:13.110 our listeners. So listeners be on the lookout 00:58:13.110 --> 00:58:16.170 for the launch of that. It will occur this summer 00:58:16.170 --> 00:58:20.809 for sure. But, yeah, I can't think. Brad, is 00:58:20.809 --> 00:58:23.550 there anything else? I'm not thinking of anything 00:58:23.550 --> 00:58:26.869 else that they need to know. Other than you'd 00:58:26.869 --> 00:58:29.329 usually say, hey, leave us a review. Oh, yeah, 00:58:29.329 --> 00:58:30.730 that's right. Rate and review the show, of course. 00:58:30.869 --> 00:58:34.230 Yes. Yeah, rate and review. Listeners, if you're 00:58:34.230 --> 00:58:36.610 new to the show, you can find this podcast on, 00:58:36.630 --> 00:58:39.670 to my knowledge. Wherever you just watched it. 00:58:39.909 --> 00:58:42.550 Yeah, wherever you're listening to it now, go 00:58:42.550 --> 00:58:48.820 back. Go to find it. But we've just dropped, 00:58:49.099 --> 00:58:51.519 again, listeners that are new to the show, if 00:58:51.519 --> 00:58:56.000 you are Star Wars fans, the last episode for 00:58:56.000 --> 00:59:01.000 Star Wars is titled Boba Fett Jar Jar Akbar Wedge. 00:59:01.019 --> 00:59:06.119 It is a fantastic show. Fabulous. John, are you 00:59:06.119 --> 00:59:09.940 a Star Wars fan? I am, although I think... The 00:59:09.940 --> 00:59:13.300 original Star Wars movies are still better than 00:59:13.300 --> 00:59:16.699 all the rest. Oh, yeah, absolutely. 100%. Yeah, 00:59:17.119 --> 00:59:19.019 go take a listen to that show. I think you'll 00:59:19.019 --> 00:59:22.840 enjoy it. Yeah, I'll do that. But, yeah, so listeners, 00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:25.800 interact with us. We love engagement. Beyond 00:59:25.800 --> 00:59:28.900 that, John, again, thank you so much for joining 00:59:28.900 --> 00:59:31.780 us. Thank you. Uh -huh. Brad, I love you, buddy. 00:59:32.059 --> 00:59:35.239 Love you, too. Listeners. Thank you both. Oh, 00:59:35.320 --> 00:59:37.079 absolutely. You're welcome. Listeners, we love 00:59:37.079 --> 00:59:40.710 you. And we will catch you next time. And go 00:59:40.710 --> 00:59:41.329 be his church.