Welcome. This is the Men Church Stuff Podcast.
This is the show where brothers-in-law DJ Culp and Brad Coleman talk about stuff from
our perspective as men. It's a show for anyone who wants to hear how Christians interact
with the world. And don't worry, we're real. We've grown up in church and we want to share
our experiences with you. We'll talk life stuff, church stuff, man stuff, and stuff
stuff. Here we go.
Greetings, listeners here and there and everywhere all across the land. This is the Men Church
Stuff Podcast. I am one of your hosts, DJ Culp, as always here with my beloved brother-in-law,
Brad Coleman. Brad, welcome back from being sick again, dude.
Yeah. It's not been my year yet.
Yeah, you're not batting a thousand, that's for sure. Yeah, sorry listeners that we weren't
able to get an ep out last week, but yeah, Brad was sick with, Brad, you said it was
a cold, but dude, it laid you out for a couple of days pretty hard, didn't it?
Yeah. I'm not sure if I'm just a wimp. I mean, I am when it comes to that stuff, but yeah,
probably a good three days I spent mostly just in bed, just upper respiratory infection
and was settling in my chest until they gave me some meds that kind of started to break
it up, I guess. Yeah.
And I'll spare everybody the grueling details of what happened next.
Yeah. Had to come out.
Yeah, yuck. That's gross.
But yeah, if we'd have recorded last week, I mean, I still sound a little nasally, but
it would have been a rough episode for everybody.
Yeah and I remember when I called just to make sure you were okay and I think you said
something like, hey man or whatever it was and immediately I thought, yeah, Brad doesn't
need to do recording. It was pretty bad, dude. And I could tell more than you were just congested.
I mean, I could tell that you were exhausted, that you were worn down. So yeah, so listeners,
sorry we didn't have an ep last week, but I mean, sometimes life is life. And I don't
know, Brad, well, I assume that it's probably going around there too, but dude, around here,
like the flu right now is rampant. There have been numerous schools that have closed their
doors just to keep kids at home. So I mean, sickness is, and maybe it's like this every
year, but-
It is the season too.
It is.
Some people equate it with the cold weather and they go, oh, it's the, you know, cold
weather makes people sick. But my understanding is it's more, we're locked in the inside in
close quarters together. So we don't get as much fresh air. We're not out as much. There's
not as much room for us to get away from sick people.
Right.
Yeah. Yeah. We just share more germs. Sorry, I got to plug my computer in here, dude.
All right, there we go.
That would be a short podcast.
That would be a short podcast. All right. So listeners, there's going to be an update
in the coming weeks as to, for at least those in the Jackson and Tennessee area, there'll
be an update in the coming weeks about our relationship with Green Frog Coffee Company.
But for the future, we will no longer be doing coupons with them. So sorry that we don't
have a coupon to give you, but those have been X-Nade. But yeah, just to kind of give
you the details, we will announce at a later date. However, we so strongly though, encourage
that you still support Green Frog Coffee Company as we do.
Their coffee's still just as good as it was before.
It's very true, yes. And speaking of, so listeners, when this episode drops, Brad Tabith and the
kids and us will have already spent the weekend together. Brad, I am, dude, I'm so excited
for you guys to come down. I'm so stoked, dude. I mean, we get to have our soup day.
We'd have a Railbarin day. I get to fix some Green Frog Coffee, like the freshly ground
beans that I'm gonna get for you guys. I'm really excited about getting to see you guys.
So that said, let's move into what we're gonna talk about today, Brad. This is a bullet point
from a sermon. I don't know when, but a sermon that I heard from our pastor at church. And
the quote is this, the best place to learn what it means to follow Jesus is among his
people. Now I've got some mad libs that I wanna do, but I do want just kind of a Brad
as an intro. I just like, don't chase it like the pastor Brad would, you know? But tell
me, just upon your initial hearing of the best place to learn what it means to follow
Jesus is among his people, are you someone that would tend to agree with that?
Yeah. Iron sharpens iron. I mean, that's the first thing that came to mind when you said,
hey, this is our topic for today. I mean, there's a lot of other, again, there's a lot
of other scripture, but yeah, I mean, when we're together with like-minded people who
are seeking to grow in Jesus together, I think we're naturally going to grow because we're
gonna push each other on to do that. And even when we don't realize we're doing it, right?
Just I don't know how many conversations I've had with guys where they were just telling
me a story and it encouraged me or challenged me. Like they weren't like, hey, Brad, you
should do this with your kids.
Yeah, let's sit down. So Brad, we're gonna start a discipleship meeting right now.
Right.
All right. So let me turn my mic up a little bit here. There we go. All right, Brad. So
let's start up some Medlibs. This actually comes from, well, actually I'll wait and tell
you where it comes from until after we get everything in. So, Vrab. Vrab. Hey, Vrab.
Brad, I need a verb.
Jump.
All right. Verb ending in ing. Licking. I need an adverb, Brad.
Adverb. Strongly.
Strongly. Verb. How about puke? I need a habit.
A habit?
Uh-huh. Not necessarily a bad one unless you want to give one, but just a habit.
Sharpening a saw.
That's like one of the seven habits or some form of that.
Another habit. How about another habit? Picking your nose. We'll say nose picking. Verb.
Lying.
Lying?
We'll go with that. I said flying, but lying is fine.
Lying. Okay. I don't remember the context, so I'm going to put fly rather than ing.
Okay. All right. An adjective followed by a noun. So I'll give the adjective if you
give the noun. Okay?
Ugly.
Stepsister.
Ugly stepsister.
Liquid. How about let's go whiskey?
Virtue.
Virtue, huh? Mercy.
Mercy. Plural noun. Ostriches. Brad, I need an action verb.
An action verb. All verbs for action.
Running.
So run. All right. Plural noun.
Computer screens. Verb.
Belch.
Belch. That's a good one. Action verb. Hit. Need another verb.
Stare.
Ooh, that's a good one. Plural noun. Wheels. Brad, I need an adjective.
Let's see. Lightly.
An emotion. Melancholy. Action verb.
Hunt.
Huh?
Hunt.
Hurt?
Hunt.
H-U-N-T. Hunt.
Like hunting. Hunt.
Yes. Hunt.
Hunt.
I need a noun. Let's go tooth. I need another verb. Man, you're getting a lot of verbs.
I know. I know. A lot of verbs. Drive. Drive.
Adjective. Gastly.
Another adjective.
Fuzzy.
Fuzzily.
Verb ending in E-D. Planted. Brad, I need a plural noun.
You-ins.
You-ins? That's hilarious. Verb. Drink. And Brad, lastly, I need another verb.
Let's see. Through.
So, throw.
Toss. Toss.
There we go.
All right. So, our topic today comes from... Oh, yeah, I can't minimize that screen.
Okay. Thank you.
Our topic today comes from Titus2, Brad, verses one through eight. And when we use our handy
dandy Madlibs here...
Blasphemous.
Blasphemous. Madlibs here. Oh, stop it. Man, my computer screen is going nuts. There we
go.
Here we go. As for you, Titus, jump the kind of licking that reflects strong teaching.
Puke the older men to exercise sharpening a saw, to be worthy of nose picking, and to
fly wisely.
They must have...
They must have an ugly stepsister and be filled with whiskey and mercy.
Similarly, teach the older ostriches to live in a way that honors God. They must not run
others or be heavy computer screens. Instead, they should teach others what is good. These
older women must belch the younger women to hit their husbands and their children to stare
wisely and to be pure, to work in their wheels, to do good, and to be light to their husbands.
Then they will not bring melancholy on the word of God. In the same way, hunt the young
men to live wisely. And you yourself must be a tooth to them by doing good works of
every kind.
Let everything you do drive...
Where am I? Dang it.
Let everything you do drive the ghastly and fuzziness of your teaching. Teach the truth
so that your teaching can't be planted. Then those who drink ewns will be ashamed and have
nothing to toss about us.
I like the original version.
Yeah, I like the original version. So elders have to have ugly stepsisters.
They should love those ugly stepsisters.
They should. Even though they're real sisters. Old sisters. Biological sisters.
Okay, so, our text here is Titus 2, 1-8. And the actual version says,
As for you, Titus, promote the kind of living that reflects wholesome teaching. Teach the
older men to exercise self-control, to be worthy of respect, and to live wisely. They
must have sound faith and be filled with love and patience. Similarly, teach the older women
to live in a way that honors God. They must not slander others or be heavy drinkers. Instead,
they should teach others what is good. These older women must train the younger women to
love their husbands and their children, to live wisely and be pure, to work in their
homes, to do good, and to be submissive to their husbands. Then they will not bring shame
on the word of God. In the same way, encourage the young men to live wisely. And you yourself
must be an example to them by doing good works of every kind. Let everything you do reflect
the integrity and seriousness of your teaching. Teach the truth so that your teaching can't
be criticized, and then those who oppose us will be ashamed and have nothing bad to say
about us.
So yeah, the listener is one of the things that I do. This is actually the second spring
that I'll be doing this. But I teach a, I guess it's a Bible study. It's sort of like
a hybrid Bible book study, right? The book that we use is the vehicle. It's called The
Titus 10. And I'm pretty sure at some point last spring, you can go back and look at those
apps or listen to those apps. But I'm pretty sure I mentioned it maybe here or there on
the pod. But anyways, yeah, like Brad, what I've done is I've tried to commit to reading
the book of Titus. I've tried to do it every day in the last, like every day of the week.
I mean, the whole thing takes like 15 minutes to read, but I don't want to read just for
the sake of reading. I want to read to really kind of dig into like, what is Paul really
saying here? I mean, it's a very compact book. He says a ton of stuff in a very small amount
of words was not like Paul. But anyways, when I, maybe Titus had a short attention span.
Maybe he did. Yeah, right. Paul was like, I gotta make this one short. Or maybe, maybe
Paul thought like Titus already knows all this stuff, but I need to write him a letter
as a formality. Just kind of keep my, can it kind of keep my MO, you know, up and about.
Okay, remember all of those things we talked about. Here's the bullet point. Here's the
bullet point. But anyways, I wanted to know, I really wanted to talk about, you know, your
perspective on the idea that the best place to learn what it means to follow Jesus is
among his people. I would like to give an immediate caveat, if you're okay with this,
Brad, that I don't take that into its full, no, no, no, no, no, I do take that in its
full context. I don't think that it is only limited to being among his people in a church
setting.
I would agree, because I think we need to be about being a part of each other's lives.
I mean, as the church, fellowship is a close and personal relationship. And that's more
than Sunday, Wednesday talk. But I think, again, corporate worship coming together to
worship is important as well. For so many reasons, but we don't necessarily need to
go into those right now.
Right. Yeah. Well, so number one, I know that we don't need to, but I'm going to. So one
of the things that I'm just going to be honest, this is a really hard conversation for me
to have because it's, I think there's so much legitimate gray area in the faith works conversation.
But one of the things that the author of the book, I think it's J. Joshua Smith, I think
that's his name, that writes this Titus 10 thing. One of the things that he mentions
is a central idea of the book of Titus specifically. But I want to bring into the conversation
of, again, the best place to learn what it means to follow Jesus is among his people,
is the idea of works. Not a works-based salvation, but the idea of works. And I'm always very
hesitant to start having a works-centric conversation when it comes to talking about the Christian
life. I'm really hesitant because I think legalism can sneak its way in very quickly.
But when I read specifically Titus 2, and it makes sense, Brad, why did you have so
many verbs in the Mad Libs? Because those first eight verses are littered with verbs,
right? Things that we have to do, or things that he's telling Titus to do that showcase
what it means to be a follower of Christ. And one of the things that got me thinking
more about this particular topic, if it's true that in fact the best place to learn
about Christ is among his followers, then there's got to be something that goes way
beyond just lip service, right?
So I would disagree with you a little bit.
I'm listening.
Okay. But as you said, there are listening things to do. When the verbiage, at least
in the NASB, older women likewise are to be reverent.
That's true, yeah.
So there's this consistency of being and be and be. And there's a difference between
do and be. And I think that's where a lot of times in Christianity we get mixed up.
And I mean, I know at some level, some people might be like, oh, you're splitting some hairs
right there. Yes and no.
You can do something inauthentically, but still get it done. I would agree with that.
You can do things that are loving.
Without love, yes.
But that is not what it means to be loving. To be loving means that I love. And so that's
where I go with the worst conversation.
If I am loving, I am going to do things that are loving.
Now, all right. So let me insert this immediate question because I want to chase it since
it's right here on the surface. Would you agree or disagree then, because this is where
my brain goes, if you would do things that are loving because you are love, I mean, like
this is an oddly worded statement, but nonetheless, does that mean that you do things unaware
that you're doing things or do you do things because you are aware that you're doing things?
I think both.
And that's...
If you're loving, you're going to... So your sister, your sister has been struggling with
her teaching, right? And she's not feeling like she's being successful, feeling like
a failure, those things that she struggles with. And so what I know is she is a great
teacher. So she's keying in on these moments and these things where she needs to work on
or where things aren't going the way she planned, whether it's her fault or not, you know? And
she's keying in on those things and ignoring everything else, right? Ignoring all of the
good stuff that happened during the day, all of the times when the instruction went well,
because that's not a problem, right? So she's keying in on those problems. And I say that
to say that she's a great educator, even when she doesn't feel like it. And I know that
because I've seen her in action and I've heard tons and tons of people compliment and all
of these things. She's really good at what she does. It's her calling.
Sure.
She's not going to do that well, even when she doesn't feel like she's doing that well,
right? So she's not acknowledging that she's doing it well. So if we are just abiding in
Christ's love, and so Christ's love has overtaken us and God has changed our heart and He's
made us loving, then we're going to do loving things. Not always, and not perfectly.
And so we need to pay attention to what we're doing. But the Bible says that out of a man's
heart his mouth speaks. So the words that we're saying, are they uplifting, are they
tearing down, are they valuable, are they worthless, are they trash? Those are coming
from our heart. Those are coming from who we are. And so they aren't what defines us,
but they're what shows what we are. Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Because what's coming out is not so much the definition as it's just showing. Like an apple
tree is going to produce apples because it's an apple tree. So when the fruit starts to
grow it's going to look like an apple, because it is. And so I think that's the thing is
God saves us and He justifies us. And the Holy Spirit moves in. And then we spend the
rest of our life on earth in the sanctification process. So we are being purified, we are
growing. Now I think we can affect that, but the sanctification process, the fact that
we're going through it, shows that we belong to Jesus. But the things that we do or don't
do, the things that we, how good or whatever we do or don't do, or how long it takes us
to get to whatever, the next level. I mean, sometimes I think in games, on level 237,
your level 42, that's between, that's God. As a matter of fact, He didn't even tell me
what level I'm on, if He even thinks of it that way. But it's becoming, He's making
me more like Christ. I think I can hinder that or I can walk in step with His Spirit
and help that along. But none of the things that I'm doing are making me more Christian.
Right, yes. And that is why I'm usually very hesitant to, I'm not going to say entertain,
but I'm hesitant to go into a conversation that is a works-centric one, because again,
the legalistic aspect of what you just said, I think can very easily sneak in. And I appreciate
how you started that, that in Thias 2, it's to be, right? A state of your heart, a state
of mind that we can't orient. It's impossible for us to do all on our own. And I think that
right there is, for me, in my experience, and maybe not just conceptually, I mean, I've
got, there are people throughout my life that have been pillars of disciple models.
If you will, like, you know, the people that I have seen live out their lives. And, you
know, they're different people with different personalities and different scenarios that
they face in their life. But yet I would look at that, I would look at them and think, all
right, so this is the way that, say, Dave handles this. If this is the way Boyd handles
this, then maybe I need to do the same thing. Or at least I need to consider this. And why
is it that they didn't? Or if I was in this situation, what would I want to do? What's
my first thought? And so again, you know, coming back, bringing to the surface yet again
the idea that the best place to learn what it's like to follow Jesus is among his people.
In Thias 2, I see a, I'm not going to say it works, but at the same time, you can't,
I don't think you can run away from it. The idea that it does matter what we do. It matters
more. Yeah, but it matters more what our heart is behind it. And so God talks about works,
right? That our works will be put on through a testifier. Wood, hay, stubble, silver and
gold. Right? Wood, hay, stubble, burn up. It's gone. It's ash. It blows away. Silver
and gold put through the fire. It's purified. Right? The dross and the other stuff gets
taken out and then it's pure. Right? So our works will be tested. But none of that is
salvation. Right. That's not salvation. And that's where we, I think again too, where
we get kind of turned around and confused sometimes. So God has called us to good works,
which he set up before the foundation of the world, the Bible says. He's called us to these
good works. So we need to be doing, right? But we need to be doing stuff as we are in
Christ, or I think organically coming out of who we are. Let me put it this way. I am
concerned sometimes with some people, with the way that I read the scripture, that there
are some people that look like the best Christians ever. They do all the right things. They feed
the poor. They wash the saints' feats. They know the book. They're there. But sometimes
there's people I'm concerned aren't those people where Jesus says, basically to partner,
going, hey, we cast out demons in your name. Right. Like we prophesied in your name. And
what does he say? I never knew you. So the end of Titus 1 says this to the exact same
person that you're talking about. Such people claim they know God, but they deny him by
the way they live. Now, I think yours, that particular example is, I would even argue
is more dangerous. I think Paul is illuminating the same concept, the same principle, but
I think like the whatever Matthew 17 or wherever that is, I think that's even more dangerous
because the way that they live on the outside would in fact show or suggest anyways that
in fact they're Christians. And again, I think that's another reason why I hesitate because
it's impossible. It is, I mean, I shouldn't, I don't know. I'm just going to say this.
To me, it is impossible to identify the authenticity of someone's Christianity because that's not
for us to do. So if all we can see is what is on the outside based upon what they're
doing. So I would even argue, Brad, and I mean, if we hit a tangent, fine, but like
the people that say Lord, Lord, and the, again, the, let's see, such people claim they know
God, but they deny him by the way that they live. Would that even mean that followers
of Christ would be, are going to be unaware?
Well, if they're followers of Christ, right? So if they belong to Jesus, those aren't the
people that hear I never knew you. And my argument for that is Jesus doesn't say I used
to know you.
Right.
He says I never knew you. I never knew you. So like when you say followers of Christ, what
are you saying? Because when I say followers of Christ, I mean people who are saved.
Yes. And what I'm wondering is would the people that are actually following Christ be able
to tell the difference between not themselves, but a true Christian or the ones that claim
Lord, Lord?
I think God has, I think discernment is a gift of the Spirit. I think we're all called
to be discerning.
Yeah.
But I do think some people have the gift of discernment. So I think there's that. I think
you also have to get into what Paul says with even the fact that he doesn't judge his own
self. Like he says, who are you to judge the servant of another?
So yeah, it's not the tares, all right? The wheat and the tares. I think about that a
lot where the enemy comes in and he plants the tares among the wheat and they start to
grow and then they start to realize, hey, there's some tares in here. These are not
all wheat.
Right.
And so they ask the owner, do we pull them up? Do you want us to go and pull up the tares?
And he says what? He says, no, because you might pull up wheat while you're doing that.
Let them grow together and then at the harvest we'll separate.
We'll separate them. Okay.
So God is saying, hey, I'm going to separate. I think it's Paul who also says, though, there
are some whose works are evident going before them, you know? And there are some where it's
not evident at first, because they appear.
I think about Isaiah 29, 13. Their hearts are far from me. You know, and they were sacrificing.
They were doing on some level the things that they were supposed to do, but their hearts
weren't worth their.
Dude, that is a tough verse. So I've been reading from the NLT just because the Bible
that Shere got me for Christmas is the NLT, and I'm trying to get used to it. And NLT
says, so this is Isaiah 29, 13, and so the Lord says, these people say they are mine,
and this is a dangerous sentence, dude. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts
are far from me, and their worship of me is nothing but man-made rules learned by rote.
Or the Greek version reads, their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas
as commands from God.
What is that? That is the picture of you do these things and you're saved.
Yeah, right.
That's the picture of, and we're not even splitting hairs with Arminian and Calvinist
and all that stuff, right? I have friends on both sides of the fence. I've been on
both sides of the fence. We're talking about people who their salvation is self-righteous.
Their salvation is in what they have done for Jesus or in Jesus' name. And they are
the people that Jesus says, I never knew you. You were never one of mine. You have never
belonged to me.
Because you, yeah, yeah, yeah, and yeah, because you, you, whether, wherever you got the formula
for however you, however you line out salvation, it did not come from me. That's, that's, that's
cool.
Galatians, Galatians 1, right? Galatians 1, you have, in Galatians, you have the issue
with the Judaizers who are claiming to be Christians, but they're telling the Gentile
Christians if you're going to be a Christian, you have to be circumcised, right? You have
to be under the law. You have to be following these tenets. And Paul uses some pretty strong
verbiage, you know, and he says basically, wow, you've traded the gospel so soon for
something that's not, you know, even for another gospel, which it really isn't a gospel because
it's, because it's lacking. And you know what? Hey, if anybody comes to you and preaches
a gospel other than the gospel, which we have already told you, they should be accursed.
He says that twice in two verses, right? He says, I tell you again, they should be accursed,
you know, they should be accursed.
Because the gospel is about Jesus and what Jesus has done and what Jesus has done for
us in our place and what Jesus can do and has done in us. So it's about Jesus, not about
me. Now, we are to do, you know, we are to abide in Him, and then good works are to grow
out of that. So we need to be intentional, right, with our good works, not just wake
up and go, okay, God's going to do good works today in me.
And then not, yeah, right, sure, and not look for those moments.
I'm just going to sit at my table and wait, you know. God has told us to go, and He's
going as we're going to proclaim the gospel, right? We need to be making disciples. We
need to be growing. So, but again, the older I get, the more that I just, I think I grow
in Christ, the more like John 15, abide in me, and I will abide in you, and then you'll
produce much fruit. Because apart from me, you can do nothing.
So we get so, and I've done it too, and I do it, and I have to refocus. Because sometimes
we do love Jesus, right? We belong to Jesus. And those people who love Jesus and belong
to Jesus can get off track by doing things for Jesus, or doing things in Jesus' name.
Trying to, instead of abiding in Jesus and letting His work come out of that. Like, I'm
a pastor, right? I'm a shepherd of a congregation. So we do things. And I have to be careful
that I don't go, we got to do this, because we got to do this. And sometimes, you know,
God's spirit goes, who told you you got to do that?
Yeah. Dude, that is a hard, hard, to me, that's a hard conversation to have. And when I say
it's a hard conversation to have, it's not because, it's not because like, you know,
the topic is weighty, or someone's feeling like they're going to hurt something. But
I mean, like, where is that line drawn? Nobody can draw it, except for the relationship that
you have with God. And that right there, that right, I think that right there is coming
back to, you know, the, I mean, we've, we've been, I call it monkeying and weaseling, right?
The monkey chase with the weasel around the mulberry bush. We've been monkeying and weaseling,
and all of that is completely legit. But like, when we look at the mulberry bush of the topic,
what is, you know, is it really true that the best place to learn about Jesus or to
follow Jesus is to, or sorry, what, how does it worded? I already forgot. The best place
to learn what it means to follow Jesus is among his people. The idea that other people
are going to, as you mentioned, are going to show the works of Christ, and they're going
to not just encourage discipleship on, like, as a thing, as the central, the whole conversation,
as a thing, quote unquote, to do, but rather as an authentic, like, spiritual investment
in other people.
I hope my life, right? I hope when people spend time with me, I hope when people spend
time with me that it makes them want to know Jesus more. I hope when people who don't,
who are unbelievers, when they spend time with me, I hope it makes them doubt their
unbelief. I hope it makes them go, maybe there is something to this Jesus.
Yes, that's a really great way to word that in.
And so I hope when other Christians spend time with me that they want to know Jesus
more, that they want to grow, I want to abide in Jesus.
Right, yes. And Brad, for me, first of all, I'm the same way. I don't think I would have
worded it that way just because I'm not you. I would have worded it. I really hope that
when people spend time with me, they want to know more about Jesus and less about what
to do. I don't, like, I hope that people, I hope that people, when they spend time with
me, like, even if it's my students in my classes, when they hear me teach, whether it's directly
about the Christian lifestyle or not, I hope that they hear there is something that is
deeper than just actions about this whole Christianity thing. There is something deeper
than someone's opinions or someone's interpretation of facts. You know, and I think from, like,
I just want to say this because it's on my mind, there's a lot more than I'm hearing
a pastor say this, I will believe him because he said it. You know what I mean? Like, that
is not the end of salvation. That's just the preaching of the Word, which is insanely valuable,
but that's not Jesus. That is, it's an ambassador of, that's a, it's a, I mean, hopefully it's
an authentic, accurate representation or message delivery of, but it is not Jesus. Man, this
is, gosh, dude, this is, like, I don't think I was ready for this. This is a heavy, heavy
topic. In James, right? In James, he tells us what to do when the devil's tempting us.
He says, draw near to God and God will draw near to you. And then resist. So there's a
work, right? Resist the devil and he will flee. But first, I'm drawing near to God.
You can't skip that one. And I love, I'm drawing near to God and he'll draw near to you. Because
what does that tell me? It tells me I'm his child and I'm little, and if I take a step
toward him, he's there. Yeah. Like, no matter how far he felt, he's there because he's drawn
near to me. Because it's not just about me drawing near to him. Because if it was about
me getting to God, I can't do it. Well, and to me, I hear that as an absolute truth. Like,
that's divorced, if you will, from all contexts. Draw near to God and he will draw near to
you, period. Now, resist the devil and he will flee from you, but like—
I think you can't divorce it from there, because then you've got just the other statement.
No, no, no. I'm not saying— I'm supposed to resist the devil and he'll
flee. Well, no, no, no. He's not fleeing from me.
Right. He's fleeing from God. Yeah, you're exactly right. I didn't mean to make it sound
like that. I was just saying, though, that draw near to God and he will draw near to
me or he will draw near to you. That in itself is an absolute statement.
Sounds a lot like abide, isn't it? Abide, yes.
Sounds a lot like, hey, be in me. Be in me, yeah.
And hey, if you're in the ways that you're not in me, hey, come on. Come on over.
Yeah. Come on.
And yeah, I know that we got away from Titus, too, and that's fine. But like, I really
wanted to just kind of parse this thought out. So just, Brad, last question here, because
we're running out of time and we may need at some point— I mean, I'm sure that we
will, but we'll maybe kind of like a part two, like a— and then we can have conversation
second. But in your experience, how have you seen or how have you experienced personally—
I've got to read it again because I've already forgotten how it's worded— the best place
to learn what it means to follow Jesus is among his people. How have you experienced
that?
Discipleship. Like, everybody who belongs to Jesus should be being discipled and should
be discipling others. Now, I think when we hear that, we think of programs. Most of the
discipleship that has been effective in my life was not a program. Books are good wasn't
a book. It was when my dad was following Jesus, my mom was following Jesus, and they took
me along. So when others are following Jesus and being the hands and feet of Jesus and
doing that, and they invite me along, and I get to see a picture of the heart of God,
of who God is, of God's love, of God's justice. These things, we're all part of
the body of Christ, right? We're not all the same. So we're going to reflect the same
Jesus, but maybe different parts, maybe, if I can say that. So when I say discipleship,
I don't want people to get confused. It was being with others in this—no, it was going
to church and seeing Sister Mae get up and sing a song and praise God, even though a
lot of—she wasn't going to win an American Idol. But the heart that I heard and the love
for Jesus, the tears that she wept when she sang about His grace, you don't get that
if you're away from His people. And so I think it is. It's important. We're supposed
to be together. We need the church, and the church needs us. We need the church, and the
church needs us. That's the way God has established it. There's some churches out there hobbling
along on one foot because the other foot's missing.
That's a nice metaphor.
There's some churches out there that might be blind because they have worthy eyes. See,
God doesn't need us, but He has established His church in a way that we need each other.
We're Him in Him because He's the head. We're the body.
And He uses His word. And I mean, He uses not just His word, but He uses the preaching
of His word as a way to illuminate how much we need Him, but He primarily uses us with
each other to drive that point home. That's what I think.
There's some things you just… So Jeff told me about this, and maybe I'm telling myself
here. I did not have a seminary degree. I've never been to seminary as far as being…
I mean, I've been to some seminaries, but I've never been a student at a seminary.
I don't have a seminary degree. One of the things that Jeff told me is many times, well,
maybe not many times, but he told me, he said, Brad, you can get, he said, you're a reader,
you absorb, you do all this stuff. You can get 80% from books and from listening to sermons
and all of this, but you're going to miss that 20%, which is that interaction with other
religious theology, the interaction in the classroom, those conversations, those things.
You're going to miss that part outside of seminary.
So as you were talking, Brad, specifically about programs, this image popped into my
mind. When I think about, and I know that we've done a show on this about the parable
of the sower, but when I think about that, and you mentioned programs, you said programs
are good, but they're not, that's not discipleship. My first thought is, and again, this is my
brain, listeners of your regulars, you'll know this, that this is the way I think, but
I thought, okay, if that's not discipleship, why not? Why is that not discipleship? It's
not an argument. It's just a, okay, so if Brad is saying that this is not discipleship…
I'm not saying that it's not a part of it.
No, no, no, no. I'm not, and I'm not, I'm just, this is the way my brain works. You
said that's not discipleship. Okay, well, I wonder why it's not discipleship. And I
got to thinking about, again, the parable of the sower, right? The sower throws the
seeds and the seeds, Jesus said that the seeds fall in one of four different places. The
one where it grows, it's not just that it's healthy soil. It is also because there's
a certain level of cultivation and fostering growth that continually happens. And let me
explain what I mean. So if I'm not the sower, but I'm the farmer, so like, I know I'm
superimposing, but follow me. The sower goes through, he throws the seeds and off he goes.
So I'm now, I am now left to cultivate the land and help the seed grow. Well, if there's
a bunch of thorns and I don't get rid of them, I'm not the person that gets rid of
them, then the seed's going to die. If the, you know, if the seed falls on, you know,
a sidewalk, right, the rocks or the hard ground or whatever, and I don't sweep it into where
it needs to go, the seed's going to die. If the seed grows, but I don't continually try
to keep it growing, the seed will die because it's not going to take deep root. And I know
that's probably like a crude way of getting through this, but we're running out of time
and I'm just trying to get through this. So the idea to me is why are programs not considered
discipleship and why is discipleship-
And that's, well, that's not what I was saying though.
I know, I know, but hang on. Because programs have an end. Discipleship doesn't. Now a relationship
with a person as a disciple, as a discipler, that may end, but the process of discipleship
should not end. Programs have a beginning and programs have an end. And when I say programs
do, I mean, like children's ministry is a program. I think it's a really, it's an insanely
important program, but it's still a program, right? I mean, a child is no longer going
to be at some point in time in the children's program. So the program is going to end. And
so why is the program itself, not what occurs in the program, but why is the program itself
not considered discipleship? Because the program does not perpetually facilitate discipleship.
So like to me, and again, this is the way my brain works, but real quick here, like
back to Titus 2, all of these two B's that you were talking about, teach the older men
exercise self-control to be worthy of respect, to live wisely. Similarly, teach the older
women to live in a way that honors God. Similarly, in the same way, encourage the young men to
live wisely. The idea is that all of these, all of these demonstrations of what we would
consider to be works are to be reflections of the heart that hopefully are experienced
and displayed not just through modeling, but through the discipleship experience to be
continually passed down. As you were saying, discipleship is meant to, I'm sure I remember
how you worded it, but discipleship should not stop. So that would be my two cents on
that particular point.
Well, and part of, so here's what I'm saying, is those things are part of discipleship,
and I think that's what you're trying to bring up. But they are not discipleship. Discipleship
is being a disciple, following Christ, and helping and teaching others to follow Christ,
what that looks like, what that means. And so we do that with Sunday school. We do that
with fishing trips. We do that in the car on the way to church.
Over dinner. Yeah, right.
We do that over coffee. We do that on, you know, in all these different things. One of
the things that kind of is a pet peeve of mine, and I think partially because I've had
to go down that road of am I wrong? You know, everybody's got their program, right? Oh,
this is what you need to do for discipleship. This is what you need to do for evangelism.
Those things cannot be put in a box. And we try to put them in a box, and somebody comes
up with a clever thing, and it may be good. I'm not downsizing its goodness or its usefulness.
Nor was I when I was explaining kind of how I saw it. Yeah.
But anytime someone gives me a book and says, hey, this book's going to change your life,
if it's not the Bible, I go, I don't think so. I mean, it may be helpful. Maybe it changed
your life because it helped you see something better in the Bible, something better about
God. But what I think I want people to understand is that same book may not do the same thing
for me. Jesus did not give the same speech to the woman at the well that He did to Nicodemus.
He didn't give the same speech to the rich young ruler that He did to Nicodemus, to the
woman at the well. He preached the same gospel, the same message, but He did it in a different
box. And an exact metaphorical parallel to what
I was even talking about with the parable of Sodor is this. If you're the farmer and
I'm the farmer, well, I mean, I may have thorny ground and you may have like extremely excellent
ground. Like your work, the way that you're going to care for that seed is got to be different,
has to be different than the way I care for mine. Because like, I mean, I've got my work
cut out for me, right? I've got thorns that I've got to get rid of. And I've got to make
sure that the seed can actually take root among a bunch of other junk. And again, like
to your point, the box, the box can't work even though the demonstrations of faith may
be there. So I don't know if, listeners, I don't know if we landed on like anything completely
and utterly resolute, but thank you for hanging out with us. Listeners, Brad, I'll tell you
what, we're just going to wrap this up because I got to teach in 11 minutes. So listeners,
we love that you've tuned in and hope that you have listened to the end and bared with
us, bore with us. I don't know. But thank you so much for listening to the show. Share
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is what we do. And we hope that you've, you know, again, enjoyed kind of the winding.
I feel like I've, I feel like I've, I've been muddled today. And maybe, maybe, maybe I have
been so listeners, my apologies for whatever reason that is. But yeah, beyond that, Brad,
I love you, buddy.
I love you too.
So stoked about this weekend, man.
Yeah.
It's going to be fun. All right, listeners, we will catch you next time.
See you then.