1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:17,320 Welcome. This is the Men Church Stuff Podcast. 2 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:22,360 This is the show where brothers-in-law DJ Culp and Brad Coleman talk about stuff from 3 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:27,500 our perspective as men. It's a show for anyone who wants to hear how Christians interact 4 00:00:27,500 --> 00:00:32,720 with the world. And don't worry, we're real. We've grown up in church and we want to share 5 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:39,520 our experiences with you. We'll talk life stuff, church stuff, man stuff, and stuff 6 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:46,040 stuff. Here we go. 7 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:53,600 Greetings, listeners here and there and everywhere all across the land. This is the Men Church 8 00:00:53,600 --> 00:01:00,280 Stuff Podcast. I am one of your hosts, DJ Culp, as always here with my beloved brother-in-law, 9 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:06,200 Brad Coleman. Brad, welcome back from being sick again, dude. 10 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:11,520 Yeah. It's not been my year yet. 11 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:17,960 Yeah, you're not batting a thousand, that's for sure. Yeah, sorry listeners that we weren't 12 00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:25,280 able to get an ep out last week, but yeah, Brad was sick with, Brad, you said it was 13 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:29,640 a cold, but dude, it laid you out for a couple of days pretty hard, didn't it? 14 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:35,280 Yeah. I'm not sure if I'm just a wimp. I mean, I am when it comes to that stuff, but yeah, 15 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:40,800 probably a good three days I spent mostly just in bed, just upper respiratory infection 16 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:47,240 and was settling in my chest until they gave me some meds that kind of started to break 17 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,040 it up, I guess. Yeah. 18 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:56,400 And I'll spare everybody the grueling details of what happened next. 19 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,160 Yeah. Had to come out. 20 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,960 Yeah, yuck. That's gross. 21 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:09,840 But yeah, if we'd have recorded last week, I mean, I still sound a little nasally, but 22 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:13,000 it would have been a rough episode for everybody. 23 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:21,040 Yeah and I remember when I called just to make sure you were okay and I think you said 24 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:25,160 something like, hey man or whatever it was and immediately I thought, yeah, Brad doesn't 25 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:33,520 need to do recording. It was pretty bad, dude. And I could tell more than you were just congested. 26 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:40,200 I mean, I could tell that you were exhausted, that you were worn down. So yeah, so listeners, 27 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:46,880 sorry we didn't have an ep last week, but I mean, sometimes life is life. And I don't 28 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:52,960 know, Brad, well, I assume that it's probably going around there too, but dude, around here, 29 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:59,800 like the flu right now is rampant. There have been numerous schools that have closed their 30 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:08,720 doors just to keep kids at home. So I mean, sickness is, and maybe it's like this every 31 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:10,480 year, but- 32 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:12,920 It is the season too. 33 00:03:12,920 --> 00:03:14,380 It is. 34 00:03:14,380 --> 00:03:18,560 Some people equate it with the cold weather and they go, oh, it's the, you know, cold 35 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:24,960 weather makes people sick. But my understanding is it's more, we're locked in the inside in 36 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:31,840 close quarters together. So we don't get as much fresh air. We're not out as much. There's 37 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:36,240 not as much room for us to get away from sick people. 38 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:37,240 Right. 39 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:46,120 Yeah. Yeah. We just share more germs. Sorry, I got to plug my computer in here, dude. 40 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:50,280 All right, there we go. 41 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:52,000 That would be a short podcast. 42 00:03:52,000 --> 00:04:01,040 That would be a short podcast. All right. So listeners, there's going to be an update 43 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:06,440 in the coming weeks as to, for at least those in the Jackson and Tennessee area, there'll 44 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:13,040 be an update in the coming weeks about our relationship with Green Frog Coffee Company. 45 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:24,160 But for the future, we will no longer be doing coupons with them. So sorry that we don't 46 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:29,700 have a coupon to give you, but those have been X-Nade. But yeah, just to kind of give 47 00:04:29,700 --> 00:04:39,400 you the details, we will announce at a later date. However, we so strongly though, encourage 48 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:43,240 that you still support Green Frog Coffee Company as we do. 49 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,160 Their coffee's still just as good as it was before. 50 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:56,000 It's very true, yes. And speaking of, so listeners, when this episode drops, Brad Tabith and the 51 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:04,600 kids and us will have already spent the weekend together. Brad, I am, dude, I'm so excited 52 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:13,800 for you guys to come down. I'm so stoked, dude. I mean, we get to have our soup day. 53 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:21,600 We'd have a Railbarin day. I get to fix some Green Frog Coffee, like the freshly ground 54 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:27,800 beans that I'm gonna get for you guys. I'm really excited about getting to see you guys. 55 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:35,560 So that said, let's move into what we're gonna talk about today, Brad. This is a bullet point 56 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:44,620 from a sermon. I don't know when, but a sermon that I heard from our pastor at church. And 57 00:05:44,620 --> 00:05:50,760 the quote is this, the best place to learn what it means to follow Jesus is among his 58 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:58,160 people. Now I've got some mad libs that I wanna do, but I do want just kind of a Brad 59 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:05,720 as an intro. I just like, don't chase it like the pastor Brad would, you know? But tell 60 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:09,960 me, just upon your initial hearing of the best place to learn what it means to follow 61 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:16,160 Jesus is among his people, are you someone that would tend to agree with that? 62 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:24,800 Yeah. Iron sharpens iron. I mean, that's the first thing that came to mind when you said, 63 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:30,520 hey, this is our topic for today. I mean, there's a lot of other, again, there's a lot 64 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:35,880 of other scripture, but yeah, I mean, when we're together with like-minded people who 65 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:42,520 are seeking to grow in Jesus together, I think we're naturally going to grow because we're 66 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:47,640 gonna push each other on to do that. And even when we don't realize we're doing it, right? 67 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,000 Just I don't know how many conversations I've had with guys where they were just telling 68 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:59,680 me a story and it encouraged me or challenged me. Like they weren't like, hey, Brad, you 69 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:01,720 should do this with your kids. 70 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:06,440 Yeah, let's sit down. So Brad, we're gonna start a discipleship meeting right now. 71 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:07,440 Right. 72 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:15,320 All right. So let me turn my mic up a little bit here. There we go. All right, Brad. So 73 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:20,840 let's start up some Medlibs. This actually comes from, well, actually I'll wait and tell 74 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:27,200 you where it comes from until after we get everything in. So, Vrab. Vrab. Hey, Vrab. 75 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,720 Brad, I need a verb. 76 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:31,200 Jump. 77 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:39,640 All right. Verb ending in ing. Licking. I need an adverb, Brad. 78 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,760 Adverb. Strongly. 79 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:49,000 Strongly. Verb. How about puke? I need a habit. 80 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,000 A habit? 81 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:56,120 Uh-huh. Not necessarily a bad one unless you want to give one, but just a habit. 82 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:57,840 Sharpening a saw. 83 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,080 Sharpening a saw. 84 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:05,520 That's like one of the seven habits or some form of that. 85 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:21,600 Another habit. How about another habit? Picking your nose. We'll say nose picking. Verb. 86 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:23,160 Lying. 87 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:24,520 Lying? 88 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:29,200 We'll go with that. I said flying, but lying is fine. 89 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:36,000 Lying. Okay. I don't remember the context, so I'm going to put fly rather than ing. 90 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:41,520 Okay. All right. An adjective followed by a noun. So I'll give the adjective if you 91 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,600 give the noun. Okay? 92 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,720 Ugly. 93 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,280 Stepsister. 94 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,040 Ugly stepsister. 95 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:58,440 Liquid. How about let's go whiskey? 96 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:00,280 Virtue. 97 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:07,320 Virtue, huh? Mercy. 98 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:17,400 Mercy. Plural noun. Ostriches. Brad, I need an action verb. 99 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:23,400 An action verb. All verbs for action. 100 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,200 Running. 101 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:38,440 So run. All right. Plural noun. 102 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:42,640 Computer screens. Verb. 103 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:43,640 Belch. 104 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:51,680 Belch. That's a good one. Action verb. Hit. Need another verb. 105 00:09:51,680 --> 00:09:52,680 Stare. 106 00:09:52,680 --> 00:10:07,120 Ooh, that's a good one. Plural noun. Wheels. Brad, I need an adjective. 107 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:13,520 Let's see. Lightly. 108 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:23,640 An emotion. Melancholy. Action verb. 109 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:24,640 Hunt. 110 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:25,640 Huh? 111 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:26,640 Hunt. 112 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:27,640 Hurt? 113 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:28,640 Hunt. 114 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:29,640 Hunt. 115 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:30,640 H-U-N-T. Hunt. 116 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:31,640 Like hunting. Hunt. 117 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:32,640 Yes. Hunt. 118 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:33,640 Hunt. 119 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:43,440 I need a noun. Let's go tooth. I need another verb. Man, you're getting a lot of verbs. 120 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:50,560 I know. I know. A lot of verbs. Drive. Drive. 121 00:10:50,560 --> 00:10:57,320 Adjective. Gastly. 122 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,360 Another adjective. 123 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:01,360 Fuzzy. 124 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,360 Fuzzy. 125 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:05,360 Fuzzily. 126 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,760 Fuzzily. 127 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:18,960 Verb ending in E-D. Planted. Brad, I need a plural noun. 128 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:20,960 You-ins. 129 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:31,760 You-ins? That's hilarious. Verb. Drink. And Brad, lastly, I need another verb. 130 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:38,160 Let's see. Through. 131 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,440 So, throw. 132 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,760 Toss. Toss. 133 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:48,160 There we go. 134 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:58,240 All right. So, our topic today comes from... Oh, yeah, I can't minimize that screen. 135 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,480 Okay. Thank you. 136 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:12,560 Our topic today comes from Titus2, Brad, verses one through eight. And when we use our handy 137 00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:14,600 dandy Madlibs here... 138 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:15,600 Blasphemous. 139 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:25,960 Blasphemous. Madlibs here. Oh, stop it. Man, my computer screen is going nuts. There we 140 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:26,960 go. 141 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:38,240 Here we go. As for you, Titus, jump the kind of licking that reflects strong teaching. 142 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:45,640 Puke the older men to exercise sharpening a saw, to be worthy of nose picking, and to 143 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,240 fly wisely. 144 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:54,920 They must have... 145 00:12:54,920 --> 00:13:04,920 They must have an ugly stepsister and be filled with whiskey and mercy. 146 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:14,640 Similarly, teach the older ostriches to live in a way that honors God. They must not run 147 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:21,040 others or be heavy computer screens. Instead, they should teach others what is good. These 148 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:33,320 older women must belch the younger women to hit their husbands and their children to stare 149 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:44,240 wisely and to be pure, to work in their wheels, to do good, and to be light to their husbands. 150 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:49,640 Then they will not bring melancholy on the word of God. In the same way, hunt the young 151 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:57,640 men to live wisely. And you yourself must be a tooth to them by doing good works of 152 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,640 every kind. 153 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,800 Let everything you do drive... 154 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:06,480 Where am I? Dang it. 155 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:13,280 Let everything you do drive the ghastly and fuzziness of your teaching. Teach the truth 156 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:22,240 so that your teaching can't be planted. Then those who drink ewns will be ashamed and have 157 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:28,440 nothing to toss about us. 158 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:29,760 I like the original version. 159 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:39,000 Yeah, I like the original version. So elders have to have ugly stepsisters. 160 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,200 They should love those ugly stepsisters. 161 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:49,560 They should. Even though they're real sisters. Old sisters. Biological sisters. 162 00:14:49,560 --> 00:15:06,840 Okay, so, our text here is Titus 2, 1-8. And the actual version says, 163 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:11,040 As for you, Titus, promote the kind of living that reflects wholesome teaching. Teach the 164 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:16,120 older men to exercise self-control, to be worthy of respect, and to live wisely. They 165 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:21,720 must have sound faith and be filled with love and patience. Similarly, teach the older women 166 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:26,800 to live in a way that honors God. They must not slander others or be heavy drinkers. Instead, 167 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:31,040 they should teach others what is good. These older women must train the younger women to 168 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:35,120 love their husbands and their children, to live wisely and be pure, to work in their 169 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:39,560 homes, to do good, and to be submissive to their husbands. Then they will not bring shame 170 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:45,040 on the word of God. In the same way, encourage the young men to live wisely. And you yourself 171 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:50,000 must be an example to them by doing good works of every kind. Let everything you do reflect 172 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:54,720 the integrity and seriousness of your teaching. Teach the truth so that your teaching can't 173 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:59,820 be criticized, and then those who oppose us will be ashamed and have nothing bad to say 174 00:15:59,820 --> 00:16:02,120 about us. 175 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:08,860 So yeah, the listener is one of the things that I do. This is actually the second spring 176 00:16:08,860 --> 00:16:15,480 that I'll be doing this. But I teach a, I guess it's a Bible study. It's sort of like 177 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:21,800 a hybrid Bible book study, right? The book that we use is the vehicle. It's called The 178 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:27,480 Titus 10. And I'm pretty sure at some point last spring, you can go back and look at those 179 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:33,360 apps or listen to those apps. But I'm pretty sure I mentioned it maybe here or there on 180 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:41,440 the pod. But anyways, yeah, like Brad, what I've done is I've tried to commit to reading 181 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:50,360 the book of Titus. I've tried to do it every day in the last, like every day of the week. 182 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:55,160 I mean, the whole thing takes like 15 minutes to read, but I don't want to read just for 183 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:59,660 the sake of reading. I want to read to really kind of dig into like, what is Paul really 184 00:16:59,660 --> 00:17:04,560 saying here? I mean, it's a very compact book. He says a ton of stuff in a very small amount 185 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:12,960 of words was not like Paul. But anyways, when I, maybe Titus had a short attention span. 186 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,640 Maybe he did. Yeah, right. Paul was like, I gotta make this one short. Or maybe, maybe 187 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,440 Paul thought like Titus already knows all this stuff, but I need to write him a letter 188 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,840 as a formality. Just kind of keep my, can it kind of keep my MO, you know, up and about. 189 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:29,840 Okay, remember all of those things we talked about. Here's the bullet point. Here's the 190 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:35,400 bullet point. But anyways, I wanted to know, I really wanted to talk about, you know, your 191 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:40,320 perspective on the idea that the best place to learn what it means to follow Jesus is 192 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:47,800 among his people. I would like to give an immediate caveat, if you're okay with this, 193 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:52,800 Brad, that I don't take that into its full, no, no, no, no, no, I do take that in its 194 00:17:52,800 --> 00:18:00,320 full context. I don't think that it is only limited to being among his people in a church 195 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:01,320 setting. 196 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:09,520 I would agree, because I think we need to be about being a part of each other's lives. 197 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:17,240 I mean, as the church, fellowship is a close and personal relationship. And that's more 198 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:26,840 than Sunday, Wednesday talk. But I think, again, corporate worship coming together to 199 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:36,760 worship is important as well. For so many reasons, but we don't necessarily need to 200 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:38,240 go into those right now. 201 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:46,720 Right. Yeah. Well, so number one, I know that we don't need to, but I'm going to. So one 202 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:52,800 of the things that I'm just going to be honest, this is a really hard conversation for me 203 00:18:52,800 --> 00:19:07,240 to have because it's, I think there's so much legitimate gray area in the faith works conversation. 204 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:14,320 But one of the things that the author of the book, I think it's J. Joshua Smith, I think 205 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:20,960 that's his name, that writes this Titus 10 thing. One of the things that he mentions 206 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:28,760 is a central idea of the book of Titus specifically. But I want to bring into the conversation 207 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:34,080 of, again, the best place to learn what it means to follow Jesus is among his people, 208 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:42,860 is the idea of works. Not a works-based salvation, but the idea of works. And I'm always very 209 00:19:42,860 --> 00:19:52,040 hesitant to start having a works-centric conversation when it comes to talking about the Christian 210 00:19:52,040 --> 00:20:00,840 life. I'm really hesitant because I think legalism can sneak its way in very quickly. 211 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:09,640 But when I read specifically Titus 2, and it makes sense, Brad, why did you have so 212 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:17,920 many verbs in the Mad Libs? Because those first eight verses are littered with verbs, 213 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:24,280 right? Things that we have to do, or things that he's telling Titus to do that showcase 214 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:30,160 what it means to be a follower of Christ. And one of the things that got me thinking 215 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:36,240 more about this particular topic, if it's true that in fact the best place to learn 216 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:42,520 about Christ is among his followers, then there's got to be something that goes way 217 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,360 beyond just lip service, right? 218 00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:47,760 So I would disagree with you a little bit. 219 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:48,760 I'm listening. 220 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:56,200 Okay. But as you said, there are listening things to do. When the verbiage, at least 221 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:00,680 in the NASB, older women likewise are to be reverent. 222 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,240 That's true, yeah. 223 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:11,640 So there's this consistency of being and be and be. And there's a difference between 224 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:21,080 do and be. And I think that's where a lot of times in Christianity we get mixed up. 225 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:25,320 And I mean, I know at some level, some people might be like, oh, you're splitting some hairs 226 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:32,440 right there. Yes and no. 227 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:40,440 You can do something inauthentically, but still get it done. I would agree with that. 228 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,080 You can do things that are loving. 229 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:45,520 Without love, yes. 230 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:52,880 But that is not what it means to be loving. To be loving means that I love. And so that's 231 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:58,040 where I go with the worst conversation. 232 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:05,600 If I am loving, I am going to do things that are loving. 233 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:12,480 Now, all right. So let me insert this immediate question because I want to chase it since 234 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:18,520 it's right here on the surface. Would you agree or disagree then, because this is where 235 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:27,040 my brain goes, if you would do things that are loving because you are love, I mean, like 236 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:35,960 this is an oddly worded statement, but nonetheless, does that mean that you do things unaware 237 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:42,280 that you're doing things or do you do things because you are aware that you're doing things? 238 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,560 I think both. 239 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:45,560 And that's... 240 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:57,080 If you're loving, you're going to... So your sister, your sister has been struggling with 241 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:03,120 her teaching, right? And she's not feeling like she's being successful, feeling like 242 00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:12,800 a failure, those things that she struggles with. And so what I know is she is a great 243 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:21,920 teacher. So she's keying in on these moments and these things where she needs to work on 244 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:28,280 or where things aren't going the way she planned, whether it's her fault or not, you know? And 245 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:35,560 she's keying in on those things and ignoring everything else, right? Ignoring all of the 246 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:41,740 good stuff that happened during the day, all of the times when the instruction went well, 247 00:23:41,740 --> 00:23:47,160 because that's not a problem, right? So she's keying in on those problems. And I say that 248 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:54,960 to say that she's a great educator, even when she doesn't feel like it. And I know that 249 00:23:54,960 --> 00:24:03,520 because I've seen her in action and I've heard tons and tons of people compliment and all 250 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:09,440 of these things. She's really good at what she does. It's her calling. 251 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:10,440 Sure. 252 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,840 She's not going to do that well, even when she doesn't feel like she's doing that well, 253 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:23,720 right? So she's not acknowledging that she's doing it well. So if we are just abiding in 254 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:33,680 Christ's love, and so Christ's love has overtaken us and God has changed our heart and He's 255 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:42,360 made us loving, then we're going to do loving things. Not always, and not perfectly. 256 00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:51,000 And so we need to pay attention to what we're doing. But the Bible says that out of a man's 257 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:57,740 heart his mouth speaks. So the words that we're saying, are they uplifting, are they 258 00:24:57,740 --> 00:25:03,840 tearing down, are they valuable, are they worthless, are they trash? Those are coming 259 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:11,200 from our heart. Those are coming from who we are. And so they aren't what defines us, 260 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,440 but they're what shows what we are. Does that make sense? 261 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:15,440 Yeah. 262 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:23,320 Because what's coming out is not so much the definition as it's just showing. Like an apple 263 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:28,280 tree is going to produce apples because it's an apple tree. So when the fruit starts to 264 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:37,240 grow it's going to look like an apple, because it is. And so I think that's the thing is 265 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:46,320 God saves us and He justifies us. And the Holy Spirit moves in. And then we spend the 266 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:57,640 rest of our life on earth in the sanctification process. So we are being purified, we are 267 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:02,760 growing. Now I think we can affect that, but the sanctification process, the fact that 268 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:10,480 we're going through it, shows that we belong to Jesus. But the things that we do or don't 269 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:17,000 do, the things that we, how good or whatever we do or don't do, or how long it takes us 270 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:27,920 to get to whatever, the next level. I mean, sometimes I think in games, on level 237, 271 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:34,000 your level 42, that's between, that's God. As a matter of fact, He didn't even tell me 272 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:40,460 what level I'm on, if He even thinks of it that way. But it's becoming, He's making 273 00:26:40,460 --> 00:26:46,760 me more like Christ. I think I can hinder that or I can walk in step with His Spirit 274 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:53,920 and help that along. But none of the things that I'm doing are making me more Christian. 275 00:26:53,920 --> 00:27:04,560 Right, yes. And that is why I'm usually very hesitant to, I'm not going to say entertain, 276 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:14,560 but I'm hesitant to go into a conversation that is a works-centric one, because again, 277 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:21,080 the legalistic aspect of what you just said, I think can very easily sneak in. And I appreciate 278 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:30,720 how you started that, that in Thias 2, it's to be, right? A state of your heart, a state 279 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:40,280 of mind that we can't orient. It's impossible for us to do all on our own. And I think that 280 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:46,560 right there is, for me, in my experience, and maybe not just conceptually, I mean, I've 281 00:27:46,560 --> 00:28:00,640 got, there are people throughout my life that have been pillars of disciple models. 282 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:07,040 If you will, like, you know, the people that I have seen live out their lives. And, you 283 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:13,280 know, they're different people with different personalities and different scenarios that 284 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:18,800 they face in their life. But yet I would look at that, I would look at them and think, all 285 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:23,680 right, so this is the way that, say, Dave handles this. If this is the way Boyd handles 286 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:30,200 this, then maybe I need to do the same thing. Or at least I need to consider this. And why 287 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:35,320 is it that they didn't? Or if I was in this situation, what would I want to do? What's 288 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:41,580 my first thought? And so again, you know, coming back, bringing to the surface yet again 289 00:28:41,580 --> 00:28:48,200 the idea that the best place to learn what it's like to follow Jesus is among his people. 290 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:59,400 In Thias 2, I see a, I'm not going to say it works, but at the same time, you can't, 291 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:09,000 I don't think you can run away from it. The idea that it does matter what we do. It matters 292 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:19,800 more. Yeah, but it matters more what our heart is behind it. And so God talks about works, 293 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:28,960 right? That our works will be put on through a testifier. Wood, hay, stubble, silver and 294 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:34,400 gold. Right? Wood, hay, stubble, burn up. It's gone. It's ash. It blows away. Silver 295 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:41,440 and gold put through the fire. It's purified. Right? The dross and the other stuff gets 296 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:48,600 taken out and then it's pure. Right? So our works will be tested. But none of that is 297 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:54,840 salvation. Right. That's not salvation. And that's where we, I think again too, where 298 00:29:54,840 --> 00:30:04,920 we get kind of turned around and confused sometimes. So God has called us to good works, 299 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:10,480 which he set up before the foundation of the world, the Bible says. He's called us to these 300 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:18,280 good works. So we need to be doing, right? But we need to be doing stuff as we are in 301 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:30,760 Christ, or I think organically coming out of who we are. Let me put it this way. I am 302 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:36,320 concerned sometimes with some people, with the way that I read the scripture, that there 303 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:46,360 are some people that look like the best Christians ever. They do all the right things. They feed 304 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:58,040 the poor. They wash the saints' feats. They know the book. They're there. But sometimes 305 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:04,800 there's people I'm concerned aren't those people where Jesus says, basically to partner, 306 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:14,120 going, hey, we cast out demons in your name. Right. Like we prophesied in your name. And 307 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:25,640 what does he say? I never knew you. So the end of Titus 1 says this to the exact same 308 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,680 person that you're talking about. Such people claim they know God, but they deny him by 309 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:39,240 the way they live. Now, I think yours, that particular example is, I would even argue 310 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:45,040 is more dangerous. I think Paul is illuminating the same concept, the same principle, but 311 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:52,400 I think like the whatever Matthew 17 or wherever that is, I think that's even more dangerous 312 00:31:52,400 --> 00:32:01,640 because the way that they live on the outside would in fact show or suggest anyways that 313 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:08,300 in fact they're Christians. And again, I think that's another reason why I hesitate because 314 00:32:08,300 --> 00:32:14,600 it's impossible. It is, I mean, I shouldn't, I don't know. I'm just going to say this. 315 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:22,640 To me, it is impossible to identify the authenticity of someone's Christianity because that's not 316 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:29,520 for us to do. So if all we can see is what is on the outside based upon what they're 317 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:36,840 doing. So I would even argue, Brad, and I mean, if we hit a tangent, fine, but like 318 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:43,680 the people that say Lord, Lord, and the, again, the, let's see, such people claim they know 319 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:51,540 God, but they deny him by the way that they live. Would that even mean that followers 320 00:32:51,540 --> 00:32:55,880 of Christ would be, are going to be unaware? 321 00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:04,120 Well, if they're followers of Christ, right? So if they belong to Jesus, those aren't the 322 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:09,260 people that hear I never knew you. And my argument for that is Jesus doesn't say I used 323 00:33:09,260 --> 00:33:10,260 to know you. 324 00:33:10,260 --> 00:33:11,260 Right. 325 00:33:11,260 --> 00:33:17,160 He says I never knew you. I never knew you. So like when you say followers of Christ, what 326 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,800 are you saying? Because when I say followers of Christ, I mean people who are saved. 327 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:28,760 Yes. And what I'm wondering is would the people that are actually following Christ be able 328 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:36,560 to tell the difference between not themselves, but a true Christian or the ones that claim 329 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:37,560 Lord, Lord? 330 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:44,200 I think God has, I think discernment is a gift of the Spirit. I think we're all called 331 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:45,200 to be discerning. 332 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:46,200 Yeah. 333 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:55,040 But I do think some people have the gift of discernment. So I think there's that. I think 334 00:33:55,040 --> 00:34:01,080 you also have to get into what Paul says with even the fact that he doesn't judge his own 335 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:08,600 self. Like he says, who are you to judge the servant of another? 336 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:17,160 So yeah, it's not the tares, all right? The wheat and the tares. I think about that a 337 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:23,800 lot where the enemy comes in and he plants the tares among the wheat and they start to 338 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,120 grow and then they start to realize, hey, there's some tares in here. These are not 339 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:28,120 all wheat. 340 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:29,120 Right. 341 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:35,800 And so they ask the owner, do we pull them up? Do you want us to go and pull up the tares? 342 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:43,320 And he says what? He says, no, because you might pull up wheat while you're doing that. 343 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:49,200 Let them grow together and then at the harvest we'll separate. 344 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:50,740 We'll separate them. Okay. 345 00:34:50,740 --> 00:34:59,440 So God is saying, hey, I'm going to separate. I think it's Paul who also says, though, there 346 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:07,240 are some whose works are evident going before them, you know? And there are some where it's 347 00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:13,000 not evident at first, because they appear. 348 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:32,400 I think about Isaiah 29, 13. Their hearts are far from me. You know, and they were sacrificing. 349 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:41,300 They were doing on some level the things that they were supposed to do, but their hearts 350 00:35:41,300 --> 00:35:44,840 weren't worth their. 351 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:52,120 Dude, that is a tough verse. So I've been reading from the NLT just because the Bible 352 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:57,760 that Shere got me for Christmas is the NLT, and I'm trying to get used to it. And NLT 353 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:03,800 says, so this is Isaiah 29, 13, and so the Lord says, these people say they are mine, 354 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:08,900 and this is a dangerous sentence, dude. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts 355 00:36:08,900 --> 00:36:14,900 are far from me, and their worship of me is nothing but man-made rules learned by rote. 356 00:36:14,900 --> 00:36:19,400 Or the Greek version reads, their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas 357 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,160 as commands from God. 358 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:28,740 What is that? That is the picture of you do these things and you're saved. 359 00:36:28,740 --> 00:36:29,740 Yeah, right. 360 00:36:29,740 --> 00:36:36,940 That's the picture of, and we're not even splitting hairs with Arminian and Calvinist 361 00:36:36,940 --> 00:36:41,120 and all that stuff, right? I have friends on both sides of the fence. I've been on 362 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:51,120 both sides of the fence. We're talking about people who their salvation is self-righteous. 363 00:36:51,120 --> 00:37:02,200 Their salvation is in what they have done for Jesus or in Jesus' name. And they are 364 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:07,660 the people that Jesus says, I never knew you. You were never one of mine. You have never 365 00:37:07,660 --> 00:37:09,520 belonged to me. 366 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:16,640 Because you, yeah, yeah, yeah, and yeah, because you, you, whether, wherever you got the formula 367 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:24,600 for however you, however you line out salvation, it did not come from me. That's, that's, that's 368 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:25,600 cool. 369 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:30,240 Galatians, Galatians 1, right? Galatians 1, you have, in Galatians, you have the issue 370 00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:36,120 with the Judaizers who are claiming to be Christians, but they're telling the Gentile 371 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,520 Christians if you're going to be a Christian, you have to be circumcised, right? You have 372 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:46,840 to be under the law. You have to be following these tenets. And Paul uses some pretty strong 373 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:54,960 verbiage, you know, and he says basically, wow, you've traded the gospel so soon for 374 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:59,960 something that's not, you know, even for another gospel, which it really isn't a gospel because 375 00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:05,060 it's, because it's lacking. And you know what? Hey, if anybody comes to you and preaches 376 00:38:05,060 --> 00:38:10,560 a gospel other than the gospel, which we have already told you, they should be accursed. 377 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:18,000 He says that twice in two verses, right? He says, I tell you again, they should be accursed, 378 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,120 you know, they should be accursed. 379 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:26,480 Because the gospel is about Jesus and what Jesus has done and what Jesus has done for 380 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:34,720 us in our place and what Jesus can do and has done in us. So it's about Jesus, not about 381 00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:41,760 me. Now, we are to do, you know, we are to abide in Him, and then good works are to grow 382 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:48,000 out of that. So we need to be intentional, right, with our good works, not just wake 383 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,400 up and go, okay, God's going to do good works today in me. 384 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,600 And then not, yeah, right, sure, and not look for those moments. 385 00:38:53,600 --> 00:39:02,120 I'm just going to sit at my table and wait, you know. God has told us to go, and He's 386 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:11,400 going as we're going to proclaim the gospel, right? We need to be making disciples. We 387 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:21,000 need to be growing. So, but again, the older I get, the more that I just, I think I grow 388 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:28,040 in Christ, the more like John 15, abide in me, and I will abide in you, and then you'll 389 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:34,560 produce much fruit. Because apart from me, you can do nothing. 390 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:43,520 So we get so, and I've done it too, and I do it, and I have to refocus. Because sometimes 391 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:48,400 we do love Jesus, right? We belong to Jesus. And those people who love Jesus and belong 392 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:55,720 to Jesus can get off track by doing things for Jesus, or doing things in Jesus' name. 393 00:39:55,720 --> 00:40:05,240 Trying to, instead of abiding in Jesus and letting His work come out of that. Like, I'm 394 00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:14,320 a pastor, right? I'm a shepherd of a congregation. So we do things. And I have to be careful 395 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:20,800 that I don't go, we got to do this, because we got to do this. And sometimes, you know, 396 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,480 God's spirit goes, who told you you got to do that? 397 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:30,480 Yeah. Dude, that is a hard, hard, to me, that's a hard conversation to have. And when I say 398 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:35,400 it's a hard conversation to have, it's not because, it's not because like, you know, 399 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:39,360 the topic is weighty, or someone's feeling like they're going to hurt something. But 400 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:44,520 I mean, like, where is that line drawn? Nobody can draw it, except for the relationship that 401 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:50,080 you have with God. And that right there, that right, I think that right there is coming 402 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:56,200 back to, you know, the, I mean, we've, we've been, I call it monkeying and weaseling, right? 403 00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:00,940 The monkey chase with the weasel around the mulberry bush. We've been monkeying and weaseling, 404 00:41:00,940 --> 00:41:07,680 and all of that is completely legit. But like, when we look at the mulberry bush of the topic, 405 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:12,520 what is, you know, is it really true that the best place to learn about Jesus or to 406 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:17,680 follow Jesus is to, or sorry, what, how does it worded? I already forgot. The best place 407 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:28,080 to learn what it means to follow Jesus is among his people. The idea that other people 408 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:34,760 are going to, as you mentioned, are going to show the works of Christ, and they're going 409 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:42,080 to not just encourage discipleship on, like, as a thing, as the central, the whole conversation, 410 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:48,600 as a thing, quote unquote, to do, but rather as an authentic, like, spiritual investment 411 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,400 in other people. 412 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:58,360 I hope my life, right? I hope when people spend time with me, I hope when people spend 413 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:05,480 time with me that it makes them want to know Jesus more. I hope when people who don't, 414 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:11,920 who are unbelievers, when they spend time with me, I hope it makes them doubt their 415 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:18,560 unbelief. I hope it makes them go, maybe there is something to this Jesus. 416 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,440 Yes, that's a really great way to word that in. 417 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:29,400 And so I hope when other Christians spend time with me that they want to know Jesus 418 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:34,320 more, that they want to grow, I want to abide in Jesus. 419 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:43,640 Right, yes. And Brad, for me, first of all, I'm the same way. I don't think I would have 420 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:52,040 worded it that way just because I'm not you. I would have worded it. I really hope that 421 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:58,400 when people spend time with me, they want to know more about Jesus and less about what 422 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:05,040 to do. I don't, like, I hope that people, I hope that people, when they spend time with 423 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:11,560 me, like, even if it's my students in my classes, when they hear me teach, whether it's directly 424 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:16,400 about the Christian lifestyle or not, I hope that they hear there is something that is 425 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:24,160 deeper than just actions about this whole Christianity thing. There is something deeper 426 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:34,760 than someone's opinions or someone's interpretation of facts. You know, and I think from, like, 427 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:43,080 I just want to say this because it's on my mind, there's a lot more than I'm hearing 428 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:54,800 a pastor say this, I will believe him because he said it. You know what I mean? Like, that 429 00:43:54,800 --> 00:44:00,740 is not the end of salvation. That's just the preaching of the Word, which is insanely valuable, 430 00:44:00,740 --> 00:44:07,320 but that's not Jesus. That is, it's an ambassador of, that's a, it's a, I mean, hopefully it's 431 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:17,240 an authentic, accurate representation or message delivery of, but it is not Jesus. Man, this 432 00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:22,880 is, gosh, dude, this is, like, I don't think I was ready for this. This is a heavy, heavy 433 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:33,800 topic. In James, right? In James, he tells us what to do when the devil's tempting us. 434 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:41,880 He says, draw near to God and God will draw near to you. And then resist. So there's a 435 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:50,240 work, right? Resist the devil and he will flee. But first, I'm drawing near to God. 436 00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:57,320 You can't skip that one. And I love, I'm drawing near to God and he'll draw near to you. Because 437 00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:02,160 what does that tell me? It tells me I'm his child and I'm little, and if I take a step 438 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:10,120 toward him, he's there. Yeah. Like, no matter how far he felt, he's there because he's drawn 439 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:14,160 near to me. Because it's not just about me drawing near to him. Because if it was about 440 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:25,560 me getting to God, I can't do it. Well, and to me, I hear that as an absolute truth. Like, 441 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:29,860 that's divorced, if you will, from all contexts. Draw near to God and he will draw near to 442 00:45:29,860 --> 00:45:36,200 you, period. Now, resist the devil and he will flee from you, but like— 443 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:41,400 I think you can't divorce it from there, because then you've got just the other statement. 444 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,520 No, no, no. I'm not saying— I'm supposed to resist the devil and he'll 445 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,120 flee. Well, no, no, no. He's not fleeing from me. 446 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,000 Right. He's fleeing from God. Yeah, you're exactly right. I didn't mean to make it sound 447 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:54,320 like that. I was just saying, though, that draw near to God and he will draw near to 448 00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:58,760 me or he will draw near to you. That in itself is an absolute statement. 449 00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:02,840 Sounds a lot like abide, isn't it? Abide, yes. 450 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,160 Sounds a lot like, hey, be in me. Be in me, yeah. 451 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:13,160 And hey, if you're in the ways that you're not in me, hey, come on. Come on over. 452 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,280 Yeah. Come on. 453 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:25,280 And yeah, I know that we got away from Titus, too, and that's fine. But like, I really 454 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:32,920 wanted to just kind of parse this thought out. So just, Brad, last question here, because 455 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:38,240 we're running out of time and we may need at some point— I mean, I'm sure that we 456 00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:46,480 will, but we'll maybe kind of like a part two, like a— and then we can have conversation 457 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:58,080 second. But in your experience, how have you seen or how have you experienced personally— 458 00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:03,960 I've got to read it again because I've already forgotten how it's worded— the best place 459 00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:09,760 to learn what it means to follow Jesus is among his people. How have you experienced 460 00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:11,760 that? 461 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:26,760 Discipleship. Like, everybody who belongs to Jesus should be being discipled and should 462 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:37,200 be discipling others. Now, I think when we hear that, we think of programs. Most of the 463 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:46,760 discipleship that has been effective in my life was not a program. Books are good wasn't 464 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:57,280 a book. It was when my dad was following Jesus, my mom was following Jesus, and they took 465 00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:04,920 me along. So when others are following Jesus and being the hands and feet of Jesus and 466 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:12,520 doing that, and they invite me along, and I get to see a picture of the heart of God, 467 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:21,000 of who God is, of God's love, of God's justice. These things, we're all part of 468 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:30,120 the body of Christ, right? We're not all the same. So we're going to reflect the same 469 00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:38,320 Jesus, but maybe different parts, maybe, if I can say that. So when I say discipleship, 470 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:46,000 I don't want people to get confused. It was being with others in this—no, it was going 471 00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:56,480 to church and seeing Sister Mae get up and sing a song and praise God, even though a 472 00:48:56,480 --> 00:49:06,560 lot of—she wasn't going to win an American Idol. But the heart that I heard and the love 473 00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:17,600 for Jesus, the tears that she wept when she sang about His grace, you don't get that 474 00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:26,400 if you're away from His people. And so I think it is. It's important. We're supposed 475 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:33,640 to be together. We need the church, and the church needs us. We need the church, and the 476 00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:40,320 church needs us. That's the way God has established it. There's some churches out there hobbling 477 00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:45,320 along on one foot because the other foot's missing. 478 00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:49,160 That's a nice metaphor. 479 00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:54,960 There's some churches out there that might be blind because they have worthy eyes. See, 480 00:49:54,960 --> 00:50:01,960 God doesn't need us, but He has established His church in a way that we need each other. 481 00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:07,680 We're Him in Him because He's the head. We're the body. 482 00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:13,000 And He uses His word. And I mean, He uses not just His word, but He uses the preaching 483 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:21,760 of His word as a way to illuminate how much we need Him, but He primarily uses us with 484 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:27,560 each other to drive that point home. That's what I think. 485 00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:32,680 There's some things you just… So Jeff told me about this, and maybe I'm telling myself 486 00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:39,480 here. I did not have a seminary degree. I've never been to seminary as far as being… 487 00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:43,560 I mean, I've been to some seminaries, but I've never been a student at a seminary. 488 00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:53,080 I don't have a seminary degree. One of the things that Jeff told me is many times, well, 489 00:50:53,080 --> 00:51:03,000 maybe not many times, but he told me, he said, Brad, you can get, he said, you're a reader, 490 00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:10,840 you absorb, you do all this stuff. You can get 80% from books and from listening to sermons 491 00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:20,000 and all of this, but you're going to miss that 20%, which is that interaction with other 492 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:24,720 religious theology, the interaction in the classroom, those conversations, those things. 493 00:51:24,720 --> 00:51:30,320 You're going to miss that part outside of seminary. 494 00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:37,360 So as you were talking, Brad, specifically about programs, this image popped into my 495 00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:45,160 mind. When I think about, and I know that we've done a show on this about the parable 496 00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:50,760 of the sower, but when I think about that, and you mentioned programs, you said programs 497 00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:57,960 are good, but they're not, that's not discipleship. My first thought is, and again, this is my 498 00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:02,920 brain, listeners of your regulars, you'll know this, that this is the way I think, but 499 00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:09,160 I thought, okay, if that's not discipleship, why not? Why is that not discipleship? It's 500 00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:13,400 not an argument. It's just a, okay, so if Brad is saying that this is not discipleship… 501 00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:15,560 I'm not saying that it's not a part of it. 502 00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:19,160 No, no, no, no. I'm not, and I'm not, I'm just, this is the way my brain works. You 503 00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:23,080 said that's not discipleship. Okay, well, I wonder why it's not discipleship. And I 504 00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:27,040 got to thinking about, again, the parable of the sower, right? The sower throws the 505 00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:33,720 seeds and the seeds, Jesus said that the seeds fall in one of four different places. The 506 00:52:33,720 --> 00:52:44,120 one where it grows, it's not just that it's healthy soil. It is also because there's 507 00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:51,600 a certain level of cultivation and fostering growth that continually happens. And let me 508 00:52:51,600 --> 00:53:00,880 explain what I mean. So if I'm not the sower, but I'm the farmer, so like, I know I'm 509 00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:05,640 superimposing, but follow me. The sower goes through, he throws the seeds and off he goes. 510 00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:10,920 So I'm now, I am now left to cultivate the land and help the seed grow. Well, if there's 511 00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:14,640 a bunch of thorns and I don't get rid of them, I'm not the person that gets rid of 512 00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:21,320 them, then the seed's going to die. If the, you know, if the seed falls on, you know, 513 00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:27,200 a sidewalk, right, the rocks or the hard ground or whatever, and I don't sweep it into where 514 00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:35,040 it needs to go, the seed's going to die. If the seed grows, but I don't continually try 515 00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:40,600 to keep it growing, the seed will die because it's not going to take deep root. And I know 516 00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:45,680 that's probably like a crude way of getting through this, but we're running out of time 517 00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:51,480 and I'm just trying to get through this. So the idea to me is why are programs not considered 518 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:53,400 discipleship and why is discipleship- 519 00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:55,640 And that's, well, that's not what I was saying though. 520 00:53:55,640 --> 00:54:04,080 I know, I know, but hang on. Because programs have an end. Discipleship doesn't. Now a relationship 521 00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:09,160 with a person as a disciple, as a discipler, that may end, but the process of discipleship 522 00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:14,120 should not end. Programs have a beginning and programs have an end. And when I say programs 523 00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:20,680 do, I mean, like children's ministry is a program. I think it's a really, it's an insanely 524 00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:25,460 important program, but it's still a program, right? I mean, a child is no longer going 525 00:54:25,460 --> 00:54:30,800 to be at some point in time in the children's program. So the program is going to end. And 526 00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:36,640 so why is the program itself, not what occurs in the program, but why is the program itself 527 00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:44,600 not considered discipleship? Because the program does not perpetually facilitate discipleship. 528 00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:48,760 So like to me, and again, this is the way my brain works, but real quick here, like 529 00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:56,480 back to Titus 2, all of these two B's that you were talking about, teach the older men 530 00:54:56,480 --> 00:55:01,440 exercise self-control to be worthy of respect, to live wisely. Similarly, teach the older 531 00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:06,200 women to live in a way that honors God. Similarly, in the same way, encourage the young men to 532 00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:13,240 live wisely. The idea is that all of these, all of these demonstrations of what we would 533 00:55:13,240 --> 00:55:24,840 consider to be works are to be reflections of the heart that hopefully are experienced 534 00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:30,540 and displayed not just through modeling, but through the discipleship experience to be 535 00:55:30,540 --> 00:55:36,360 continually passed down. As you were saying, discipleship is meant to, I'm sure I remember 536 00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:46,360 how you worded it, but discipleship should not stop. So that would be my two cents on 537 00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:47,640 that particular point. 538 00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:53,960 Well, and part of, so here's what I'm saying, is those things are part of discipleship, 539 00:55:53,960 --> 00:56:00,680 and I think that's what you're trying to bring up. But they are not discipleship. Discipleship 540 00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:10,680 is being a disciple, following Christ, and helping and teaching others to follow Christ, 541 00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:16,520 what that looks like, what that means. And so we do that with Sunday school. We do that 542 00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:23,080 with fishing trips. We do that in the car on the way to church. 543 00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:24,680 Over dinner. Yeah, right. 544 00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:31,800 We do that over coffee. We do that on, you know, in all these different things. One of 545 00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:37,880 the things that kind of is a pet peeve of mine, and I think partially because I've had 546 00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:45,600 to go down that road of am I wrong? You know, everybody's got their program, right? Oh, 547 00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:52,640 this is what you need to do for discipleship. This is what you need to do for evangelism. 548 00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:58,800 Those things cannot be put in a box. And we try to put them in a box, and somebody comes 549 00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:05,080 up with a clever thing, and it may be good. I'm not downsizing its goodness or its usefulness. 550 00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:09,920 Nor was I when I was explaining kind of how I saw it. Yeah. 551 00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:15,200 But anytime someone gives me a book and says, hey, this book's going to change your life, 552 00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:22,420 if it's not the Bible, I go, I don't think so. I mean, it may be helpful. Maybe it changed 553 00:57:22,420 --> 00:57:26,280 your life because it helped you see something better in the Bible, something better about 554 00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:31,760 God. But what I think I want people to understand is that same book may not do the same thing 555 00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:39,720 for me. Jesus did not give the same speech to the woman at the well that He did to Nicodemus. 556 00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:44,080 He didn't give the same speech to the rich young ruler that He did to Nicodemus, to the 557 00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:50,920 woman at the well. He preached the same gospel, the same message, but He did it in a different 558 00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:55,520 box. And an exact metaphorical parallel to what 559 00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:59,160 I was even talking about with the parable of Sodor is this. If you're the farmer and 560 00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:07,040 I'm the farmer, well, I mean, I may have thorny ground and you may have like extremely excellent 561 00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:12,800 ground. Like your work, the way that you're going to care for that seed is got to be different, 562 00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:16,600 has to be different than the way I care for mine. Because like, I mean, I've got my work 563 00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:19,600 cut out for me, right? I've got thorns that I've got to get rid of. And I've got to make 564 00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:27,880 sure that the seed can actually take root among a bunch of other junk. And again, like 565 00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:36,400 to your point, the box, the box can't work even though the demonstrations of faith may 566 00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:43,520 be there. So I don't know if, listeners, I don't know if we landed on like anything completely 567 00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:49,160 and utterly resolute, but thank you for hanging out with us. Listeners, Brad, I'll tell you 568 00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:54,480 what, we're just going to wrap this up because I got to teach in 11 minutes. So listeners, 569 00:58:54,480 --> 00:59:02,840 we love that you've tuned in and hope that you have listened to the end and bared with 570 00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:09,040 us, bore with us. I don't know. But thank you so much for listening to the show. Share 571 00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:17,800 the show. Experience the pleasure of coffee and food at Green Frog Coffee Company in Jackson. 572 00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:25,480 And yeah, rate and review our show. If you're not like a follower of the show, follow the 573 00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:31,520 show, subscribe to the show. You can get our podcasts on any listening platform, major 574 00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:37,680 or minor for that matter, that anywhere that you can get podcasts, we're there. So we do 575 00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:45,520 this once a week or presumably unless either one of us is sick. But yeah, this is us. This 576 00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:50,560 is what we do. And we hope that you've, you know, again, enjoyed kind of the winding. 577 00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:55,840 I feel like I've, I feel like I've, I've been muddled today. And maybe, maybe, maybe I have 578 00:59:55,840 --> 01:00:01,560 been so listeners, my apologies for whatever reason that is. But yeah, beyond that, Brad, 579 01:00:01,560 --> 01:00:02,560 I love you, buddy. 580 01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:03,560 I love you too. 581 01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:05,560 So stoked about this weekend, man. 582 01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:06,560 Yeah. 583 01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:11,560 It's going to be fun. All right, listeners, we will catch you next time. 584 01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:16,560 See you then.