Welcome. This is the Men Church Stuff Podcast.
This is the show where brothers-in-law DJ Culp and Brad Coleman talk about stuff from
our perspective as men. It's a show for anyone who wants to hear how Christians interact
with the world. And don't worry, we're real. We've grown up in church and we want to share
our experiences with you. We'll talk life stuff, church stuff, man stuff, and stuff
stuff. Here we go.
Greetings listeners here and there and everywhere all across the land. This is the Men Church
Stuff Podcast. I am one of your hosts, DJ Culp, as always here with my beloved brother-in-law,
Brad Coleman. Brad, what's up, man?
It's cold.
Dude, it's so awesome, isn't it?
It's not.
No, it is. It is.
How cold is it there where you are?
I think on my way into work today, I think it was 16 degrees, 13 degrees.
16? 16? Okay. So taking Carrie Beth to school because she had a big project board she had
to take. So didn't have her ride the bus. The truck said it was one.
That's awesome. I want to say that's so cool, but I mean, it actually is. Yeah, I love that
kind of weather.
No, well, you can have it. See, I lived in Northwest Ohio for seven years. I feel like
calling my friends and being like, hey, your weather came down. It's in my front yard.
You can come pick it up.
Yeah, you want it back.
Yeah, because it ain't good here. Take it home.
Yeah.
I like it cold. I don't like it that cold.
I do like it this cold, but to give the caveat, I mean, and I was talking to my students this
morning about it. I like this weather. It's uncomfortable, but I mean, like, it gives
me opportunity to bundle up. And I love, man, I'm serious way more than, than, you know,
the dead summer heat.
Oh, I'll take this over 100 degrees.
Oh, any day, any day. But I love the freshness and the crispness, crisp, crisp-ness of the
air. Like, it's so, it's just so clean, you know, and, and-
Yeah, cause everything is dead.
Yeah, everything's dead.
Everything that was flying in the air before.
It's just gone.
It froze to death.
I will say this except for the flu. Like the flu and, and, you know, other, other illnesses
and, and, and sicknesses, those aren't dead and those are flying around.
You know, it's incredible to me, and this is completely off topic of what we're talking
about, but you know what's incredible to me is that so many of those diseases and things
cannot exist outside of a host for very long.
Yeah.
Like 24 to 48 hours, like 48 hours is a long time for a virus or something like that to,
to last on a surface outside of a host.
Right.
But, but yet we can't, we can't get rid of them.
But yeah, they've got a host and I mean, as, as we mentioned on last week's podcast, like
dude that flu, it found me and, and it was like, we're setting up camp.
It's party time, you know, like, like we're, we're, we're hiring, we're hiring, you know,
all sorts of workers.
We've, we've got, you know, we've got these, all these promotional offers bring like come
one, come all.
That's, and it, and it stayed, it stuck around.
No, you're right.
I've never, I don't think I've really ever thought about that.
But yeah, I mean, if it doesn't have a host, it dies pretty quick.
And the best way that I've ever heard, I think maybe I've said this on the show before, but
the best way I've ever heard a description of children is that they are Petri dishes.
Just for growing bacteria.
I remember in college studying, again, I was studying education and especially like elementary
education.
And like looking at that and they were talking about how, like when, when a child sneezes
versus when an adult sneezes, like, and I mean, it's just saying like, just if they're
both the same, like they don't cover and all that.
Yeah.
And then the child has like so many, like more germs because they don't have the antibodies
built up that a healthy adult does.
And so, yeah, I mean, and I don't remember, but it's something like 10,000 to like a million
or something.
Goodness.
Wouldn't you be the guy that, like, wouldn't you hate to be the guy that had to count all
that?
You know, like looking like your whole, your whole career is staring through a microscope
going, all right, I don't think I counted that one.
That's 178,732.
Hey, Jim, your lunch is 699.
699.
No, no, I can't do it.
What are you doing to me?
I would hate to been that guy when like technology came out and took his job.
Like yeah, it's like, you know what?
I was the guy that did all of that and now nobody cares.
Nobody cares.
They stopped caring before I was able to publish this.
Why?
Why am I doing this?
The guy in the machine that did it in three seconds.
Hey, Brad, before we dive into our topic, I think there's a little business we need
to take care of, don't you?
I think it's coffee time.
Coffee time!
I'll cue the music.
All right, listeners, if you're a regular to the show, you will know we've got a collaboration
with the Green Frog Coffee Company here in Jackson, Tennessee.
The North Store general manager is Shelby.
Shelby, shout out.
Wonderful gal.
Loves helping us out and we love helping them out.
So if on Monday, January 27, if you want to drop by the Green Frog Coffee, coffee store,
the North Store on Union University Drive, you get $2 off if you use the code word church.
Code word church.
Church.
Yeah, church.
Because we talk about church and we do talk about other stuff.
My favorite to this day, still Brad, my favorite code word is Brad.
But today the code word is church.
You get $2 off your order, whatever it is that you want all the Lid Long Day.
And Green Frog Coffee has great stuff.
I have forgotten to mention this, that right now actually they still have bags of like,
it's not really a cappuccino, but it is a coffee drink mix.
It's one of their favorite or they're big sellers called Dirty Snowman.
And Shara loves, I guess I should say, Shara loves the Dirty Snowman.
She loves the mix.
It's a little too sweet for me, but it's got some toffee, hint of toffee in it with some
white chocolate.
It's a really, really good thing.
But yeah, you can buy that mix to take home with you.
So again, $2 off using code word church at the North Store of Green Frog Coffee Company
where they are built on Christian values and they have coffee that is so good.
Brad, how good is it?
A dirty snowman would drink it.
Not any regular snowman, a dirty one.
Oh, and P.S., Brad, their house blend of like, listeners, if you go to Green Frog Coffee,
you can buy, I think they're two pound bags of their house roasted coffee beans.
Dude, their house blend is awesome.
Dude, it's so good.
It's one of the best.
It's actually one of the best roasts.
It's a darker roast.
So listeners, if you guys are dark coffee fans, it's a great one to buy.
Dude, it's wonderful.
But there we go.
So, Brad, let's dive into our topic.
We are talking about a quote today from one of the former presidents of Lifeway, Mr.,
or I guess technically Dr., Tom Rayner.
I've actually met him, a real cool guy, his son, Sam Rayner.
Shout out to Sam.
Sam Rayner was the pastor for a short time at our church in Murray, First Baptist Church
of Murray.
But I do Facebook follow with Tom.
He's a pretty prolific author and has a lot of writings on the church, the health of the
church, how the church's interaction with congregations.
I've not read a lot of his stuff, but I know it seems to be that's kind of his thing.
I like some of his smaller books like, So You Want to Be a Welcoming Church or Autopsy
of a Dead Church.
Very insightful.
I love them because they're not huge.
They're short, very to the point kind of things.
I think he cuts out a lot of just fluff that you would have in a lot of books.
And so it's something that you can give people even that aren't big readers.
Sure.
I've never read any of his books, but based on some of the few things that I've read and
certainly a lot of quotes that I've read from him, he seems really, really poignant.
And kind of his, I'm going to get nerdy here, but his thesis statements that he'll post
that'll circulate on Facebook, like the one we're going to read today, it's like they're
real...
I'm trying to think of how to phrase it.
They're very, very succinct, very easily accessible, but clearly you get a much bigger idea as
to what he's driving at just through them.
So the quote today that we want to discuss says this, when the preferences of the church
members are greater than their passion for the gospel, the church is dying.
When the preferences of the church members are greater than their passion for the gospel,
the church is dying.
So here's where I think at least we can start, Brad.
I want to know what your experience is, just as a pastor looking at the churches that you've
been a part of.
So whether it's a senior pastor or being a youth minister, because my experience with
some of your answers more than likely are going to just simply be...
With my dad being a pastor, I've always heard dad say this, but my experience has
certainly been from the congregation.
I just want to know as a quote unquote employee of the church, how have you seen the truth
of that?
Well I would say some of it is the problem of looking at me as an employee of the church.
I mean in some sense I am, but I'm not.
I don't work for the church.
I serve the church.
I work for...
God is my employer, if you will.
And the Bible has called us to get our livelihood as those who are called to the gospel through
the gospel.
So I think some of those things, the way we define them and look at them, because if the
people of the church look at me as an employee of the church and they're members of the church,
well now it's like when I go to Walgreens, hey, you work for me.
And if you're filling my prescription, so on some level you work for me.
And if I don't like the prescription or the way that you're doing it, I'm going to go
take my business elsewhere.
And so we tend to frame, I think, the way that church dynamics from a business standpoint.
Some of those things do travel or at least are worth looking at.
But when we've got that model where the church is a business and the pastor is like the manager
or the CEO and all of those things, I think you get in trouble.
And I think that's where we get some of these problems with looking at our preferences versus
not.
Now, and arguably it's a human nature and nature thing.
I don't know when we start calling ourselves members instead of disciples.
And if I were disciples and they met together.
That's a good word, dude, because the word member definitely, there's a connotation that
almost makes it sound like, well, I have an investment, so.
What do I get?
Yeah, what do I get?
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
And I'm sorry to use the word as an employee of the church.
I was really framing it more from just the idea that you are paid directly from the church,
which really comes from tithe.
Or at least is, I shouldn't say comes from tithe, but is.
No, I mean, well, it does.
When people tithe to the church, it goes in and that's part of what takes care of me and
my family.
We don't get those tithes directly.
They go into the church and then there's my pay.
So your tithe isn't coming to me if you're tithing to 1st Baptist Murphy directly, but
it is supporting the pay package.
And again, it's not wrong necessarily to say I'm an employee of the church.
The government would definitely agree with you in one sense.
In the other, I'm an independent contractor of the church, so the government can't decide
what I am.
But I think biblically, the way that I would understand it is I'm called to be a pastor.
I'm called to preach the gospel.
I'm called to serve.
And then it's the local church's responsibility to support my family and me so that I can
continue to do that.
When you look at that, it's a calling from God and it's the responsibility of the local
church to support their pastor so that he can continue to be their pastor and do the
things that God has called pastors to do.
And so when you look at it that way, I think though it's a shift of paradigm.
I mean, I know to some people it's just words.
You're speaking semantics.
But I think it just depends on how those words are hitting with us.
Because again, I've had those situations.
So I say all that to go with I think sometimes that's the issue where people get so caught
up in their preferences because we live in a world of commercialism.
We live in a world of go find that thing and hey, if you don't like Walgreens, go to CVS.
And if you don't like CVS, go to Walmart and you have all of these choices and find what
you like.
And we have an iPhone and an iPad and iTunes and all of these things are I, I, I, I, I.
Yeah.
Well, and again, for me, what I'm hearing you say relating back to the delineation of
employee of the church and the member of the church.
I just hear you saying ROI, right?
What just on every product that we could possibly think of, what's my what's the return on my
investment?
Yeah.
Well, right.
And what's it?
So and I like what Jeff Willem, my senior pastor in Ohio, what he said.
Church membership is not about special privilege.
It's about special responsibility.
And so like I think that is so big.
It's like we got that mindset is like God has put us in the in the local church as individuals
as part of the body to serve the body.
Yeah.
And then outwardly, you know, so we're building one another up in Christ and then we're sharing
the gospel outwardly.
We're, you know, and so we're, we're sharing the gospel.
God does the work and then that's how the body grows.
You know, we as the body are obedient to God to do what he's called us to do.
But he's the one, you know, one, one so's one waters, but God gives the increase.
Yeah.
And so now we all have our preferences.
We all like what we like.
And might I add, might I add as an, as just a quick interjection in like when, when I think
about this topic, I also include pastors in that.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Because I have to be mindful because I'm, I'm still part of fallen humanity.
Yeah.
I'm redeemed through Christ, but I have a flesh that is still struggles in and it's
sin.
Yeah.
And it's not going to inherit the eternal life, this flesh is going to die and go back
to the dust.
I get a new body.
You know, so right, there is that struggle with everything from, from pride to what I
want and all those things.
So when God calls us to die to ourself, which is one of the biggest things that he calls
us to do, and it's also one of the hardest things.
And you know, somebody said it this way.
It's that, you know, God calls us to be a living sacrifice.
The problem with the living sacrifice is it keeps crawling off the altar.
Yeah.
I don't want to get burned.
Stop it.
Yeah, that's true, man.
You know, so that's a really good point.
Yeah.
So there's not, so let's, let's go one that I think is just so generic that just about
every church has probably dealt with it at some point or another.
And that's, that's the music.
I really thought you were going to say the color of the carpet.
No, no.
I really thought you were going to go there.
I think there's a lot of, no, no, the music, because I think music's big.
I think the way that we, because music is a great gift from God.
I agree, Brad.
You do, you know.
But you probably also agree that everybody doesn't like the same music.
Yes, I completely, obviously.
Yeah.
And that's why there is this, this, just this beautiful array of so many different styles
and kinds of music.
And some of them I don't like, but, but I appreciate, at least most of them, that they're
there, even if I don't like them.
Yeah.
So there's definitely ones that I like more than others.
So everybody that comes in the church is going to have their preference on music.
And when we make the music about what I want, then we're going to have struggle.
Because the more people we get in the church, the more opinions we have on the music.
And I like the old, I like the new, I want blended.
I want blended my way.
What does blended even mean?
What does old mean?
What does new mean?
Yep.
Every generation of the church, especially when you come to start to see that structure
of the church and the structure of music, has struggled with that every time the generations
change, right?
Because we tend to change that.
And sometimes we just, man, they just outright just call it ungodly for a while.
Did you know that when...
Amazing Grace, Amazing Grace, that's a classic hymn, that's the one that we want to hear.
And I love Amazing Grace.
But do you know when it first came out, like there was a lot of churches that wouldn't
play it?
Yep.
I mean, you probably do know this.
I do know that, yeah.
Yeah, because it was set to a bar tune.
Uh-huh.
And it was accused of being too worldly.
So dude, Martin Luther, like one of the very first, I almost said Salters, but one of the
very first really hymns that he wrote, chorales that he wrote, Mighty Fortresses Are God,
that is a bar tune.
And what he did was he removed the words that they were singing, wrote his own.
So yeah, I mean, that kind of cycle has happened for hundreds and hundreds of years.
And it's going to probably, shamefully on some level, continue to happen.
Well, maybe it's not shamefully, it's an opportunity.
It's an opportunity, yeah.
I think it's debatable.
You know what I love?
This is what I love.
I love when there is someone who likes the old hymns.
They love the old hymns.
That's what they'd rather have a singing.
But they will sing along and praise along with a newer worship song that isn't the style
they want.
Right.
Because I think it's an opportunity for us to realize that it's not about what music
that we're playing.
That music itself is not the worship.
Our heart turned to God is the worship.
Well, and I mean, Paul even alludes to that, not with worship, but it's not the love chapter.
I'm trying to remember which chapter it is where he mentions that if I speak in angelic
tongues, if I do all sorts of different things and I don't have love, then it's all vain.
No, that is love chapter.
That's 13.
It is love chapter.
Okay.
1 Corinthians 13.
13, yeah, right.
It's sounding brass or like a clanging single.
But the idea though is, and I'm going to say something that is probably going to be extremely
controversial to a lot, specifically to this line of topic, but I would even argue that
Brad, if that's true, then you could be singing a Christian song, having words that are coming
out about Christ and you're not worshiping.
Because I think the basic underlying premises, well, if it's sacred, right, if it's for the
church, then it's worship music.
Wrong.
No, it's not.
Music is music.
That's it.
And now, does music have like a transcendent type of characteristic to it?
I would argue yes, but it's still based upon the person's heart, regardless of what's coming
out of their mouth.
Right.
Well, we don't want to mistake the way that the music we like makes us feel with a spiritualness.
I don't know how better.
So here's the example.
Let me just give you this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm with you.
Yeah.
There was a, I saw this post from a girl who had grown up in church and she's like, in
the music and in church where they, you know, it was worship style music.
And she was like, you know, I really just thought it was the spirit that was pumping
me up.
And then I went to a secular concert and I felt the same thing.
Now, I know there's probably some people that may be listening, like, yeah, see, that's
why we need to go back to the old hymns.
No.
Right.
And I think those hymns is the way, that's the way those hymns make you feel.
That's exactly right.
Yes.
And if you go to a similar secular concert where those words...
So, my thing is, is the hymn, is the song, is the thing that we're using for worship,
are the words that we are saying, are they truthful and are they glorifying to God?
Right.
And, you know, I know some people that they don't like some of the...
And they call it newer, but really for us, it's older.
The, you know, the thing where they just, oh, hey, it's a song where there's just 11
times we're gonna repeat, you know, holy, holy, holy, are you Lord God Almighty?
Which always makes me laugh because I'm like, you've read Revelation, right?
Yeah.
Because that's actually what they do.
That's all they say over and over.
There's four beings who just, you know, all day long say, holy, holy, holy is the Lord
God Almighty who was and is and is to come.
They just repeat it.
Yeah.
So, yeah, so the worship, though, it's about the heart.
So when we mistake it for, I like this, then we've missed what worship is.
Right.
Because worship is not us liking the music we're singing.
Worship is about us turning our heart toward God and worshiping Him and looking at Him.
And I think music is a great way to help us get into that flow.
I mean, music is calming, music is exciting, music is a powerful thing.
God has given, which is incredible to me, right?
That God has given us this beautiful gift that you can put all of these sounds together
that alone are like just the ding, ding.
Yeah.
But once you put them together in this order, they become this majestic thing.
And isn't that a picture of, again, the church?
Yeah.
That's exactly right.
The body of Christ.
Yeah.
Like, again, I'm musical enough just to get myself in trouble, DJ.
So it might be musically blasphemous in the thing I say.
You better watch your step here, Brad.
You know, but if a high note says to a low note, you're no good.
I don't like you.
I just like the other notes that are up here.
I mean, we lose this range of beauty if we get rid of half the notes.
You are correct.
Yeah.
I'm just trying to speak enough general.
Just general, right?
I know that there are some that are like, oh, B sharp is also the same as this.
So I was like...
B sharp does technically exist, and nobody likes it.
I'm just gonna let you know.
Because we all know it is C.
C, right.
There you go.
I knew it was something like that.
So I was like, if I just throw out some random letters, DJs can be like, well, those are
actually the same.
What are you talking about, Brad?
Those are actually the same thing.
It's like if the B sharp said to the C, they're actually the same thing.
They're the same thing.
So yeah.
Yeah.
If there is...
So based on everything that you said, the thing that I would like to chase...
And this is something that I've spent a lot of years thinking about.
So as a Baptist, my life experience with the church has been in the world of autonomy.
With dad being a Methodist pastor now, and I can't remember what the word is, but they
basically got a hierarchy set in place to where...
Well, they're not...
Actually, excuse me.
He's not a Methodist pastor anymore since they disaffiliated.
But prior to the disaffiliation...
I said for a long time, and if any of the people in this church are listening, I hope
I don't offend anybody.
I said for a long time, when your dad started being a Methodist, pastoring in a Methodist
church, I was like, he's not a Methodist pastor.
He's the same guy he was before.
He's a pastor in the same way.
I said, they're just a Baptist church.
They just don't know it yet.
They don't know it yet.
And I say that in jest, because again, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what
the name over the door is.
That's exactly right.
That is exactly right.
Yeah.
It remembers, it matters what name all men must be saved by that name.
But if there's anything...
Jesus.
It's Jesus.
Yeah.
Listeners, if you were unaware, it's Jesus.
Yesus Christos in Greek.
But to me, the weakness I see...
So again, just kind of reading this quote, when the preferences of the church members
are greater than their passion for the gospel, the church is dying.
The weakness that I see of autonomy in the Baptist church is to where we will, in fact,
as you were saying, Brad, we will replace our preferences with gospel.
Because we're part of a church and because I'm a Christian, or at least claiming to be
so, then what I want and how I want things to be done and how I see things as they need
to be, that they are replacing their preference and as you were mentioning, level of comfortability
with the message of Jesus.
And again, the thing I don't like about autonomy is it's almost as if, well, because this is
the system that we're operating under, I'm owed this.
You haven't been at this church as long as I have, Brad.
I know that you're the pastor, but I mean, buddy, you're walking into something where,
again, what's my ROI?
What's my return on investment?
I have been through this church thick and thin.
I want to shake your hand.
Dude, thank you so much, but you don't own this at all.
So what you're saying in a nutshell is that we either trade our preferences for the gospel
or we trade the gospel for our preferences.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
And I suppose the only caveat, Brad, is if you're completely and utterly apathetic and
you just don't care.
Or maybe if your preference is the gospel.
If your preference is what?
If it's the gospel, then you don't have to trade anything.
Yeah, right.
If your preference is the gospel, then you win.
Yeah, right.
I tell you, here's the thing with the quote, and I like the quote, but read the quote again.
Excuse me, when the preferences of the church members are greater than their passion for
the gospel, the church is dying.
So the only thing I would change is when anything becomes the focus other than the gospel, the
church is dying.
Yeah, that's true.
In this case, we're focusing on preferences, so that's what...
Yes, but anything that gets in the way.
And I think what we have to realize is the church and what we have to own is humanity
and our brokenness is that we are going to have to refocus that a lot.
And as long as we're willing to keep doing that, that's good and we're going to grow.
That's when we start to stop doing that.
I'm going to do things today that are not going to be the best.
I'm going to make some mistakes today.
I'm going to make some choices that even myself later on, I probably should have went left
when I went right.
And some of them, maybe in the big scheme, don't matter.
But what matters is not like if I take a wrong turn when I'm driving Carrie back to school.
What matters is that I turn around and get back on the right track.
And if I take three wrong turns on the way to school, but I still keep correcting them,
she's going to get to school.
Now depending on how many, she may be a little late, but she's still going to get there.
But if I decide, you know what, I made my decision.
I turned right when I should have turned left, but I'm just going to keep going.
It's going to take a whole long time for me to circumnavigate the globe and get her back
to the other side of the school.
So the reality is my truck don't do real well on oceans.
So I ain't going to get there.
So we've got to refocus on Christ.
And I think that's part of this picture.
I think sometimes we get the wrong idea that we're supposed to get there and then we're
there.
Yeah, that's heaven.
Right.
We ain't there yet.
Right.
I think I get that.
I think that where that really begins to happen.
I mean, so if, and I'm thinking really conceptually, but I'm also thinking about from my own experience,
working with a live timeline, just the passing of time, when the preferences of the church
members are greater than their passion for the gospel, if, as you were mentioning, if
it's just this level of comfortability or complacency even better, just becoming sort
of this, just this stagnant, I'm not going anywhere spiritually.
I mean, we are still reacting to our own humanity, as you've been mentioning, we're still reacting
to our own humanity day in and day out, whether we're sacrificing ourselves to Christ day
in and day out or not.
And so what happens is, I think that as we become complacent, whether we realize it or
not, it's our complacency that is now taking the place of the gospel and we're acting upon
preferences from our place of complacency.
If that makes any sense.
I know that may sound like a circular reasoning, but again, when that happens, it's like, oh,
so there's something brand new that you want to do.
All of a sudden it's infringing not upon my preferences as I would possibly really see
them.
But then you can upon my preferences of, look, dude, I haven't been doing jack crap and I
kind of don't want to do anything because I'm really happy where I'm at.
Now we've got a problem.
You know, I have a little bit of a theory.
So when a person gets saved or they connect with God and they're in a church and it just,
everything feels like it's connecting right, right, and I like the people, I like the music,
I like the pastor, you know, all of these things, which are good things.
But most of the, to have all of those things be consistently unchanging is really not going
to happen.
It's not.
No, you're exactly right.
And so I think there's a lot of people that get there, where they grew up in church and
they loved it and that was all of the stuff around.
I think so many of us are trying to create that.
We're trying to get that back.
But if we're not careful, and maybe I'm being a little too generous, if we're not careful,
it really becomes idolatry because we're not trying to serve God.
We're trying to serve ourselves, even though we may not even realize that.
No, no, no.
I like this style of preaching and I like this.
One of the things, because sometimes I will have guest preachers, right?
Now I vet the people that I put in the pulpit or I do my best to to make sure that, you
know, like that's important to me.
But I will have sometimes people say, well, I didn't like the way they preach.
I was like, okay.
My question is usually, you know, something along the lines of, were they true to God's
Word?
Right.
Yeah.
I don't care if he got up there and it was super boring to you.
I mean, I'm going to talk to him about that, but if he got up there, or if I get up there
and it's super boring to you, but the gospel and the message is biblically sound, it is
that.
Then I think you got to consider your preferences as what they are, preferences.
Yeah.
There's preachers that I prefer to listen to over others.
Correct.
Yes.
Yeah.
The statement, I didn't like the way he preached is a completely different statement than I
didn't like what he had to say.
I mean, if we're talking about delivery.
But the message generally is I don't want to, like if they're going to preach again,
just let me know.
I will be there.
Yeah.
I mean, yeah.
Kind of my kind of mindset.
We need to come to church because we love God and we love one another.
We need to come to church to serve.
We need to come to church to worship together.
Right.
We're worshiping God, not our preferences.
We're learning, we're being built up to go out and be his church the rest of the week.
I have to guard because I will tell you too, DJ, I will sometimes get so frustrated with
people.
Let me go back to being a youth pastor.
Right?
Yeah.
We were at youth camp one year.
And I'm telling you, I felt like everybody's heart that was in our group was not where
it needed to be.
I was so frustrated.
There was at one point that I had to walk out of the room in our small group and let
Tabby just handle it because I was about to just lose it.
And I'm sitting there in this listening to this other pastor at the camp preach a little
bit later.
And God brought to mind the desert of wandering.
Like the 40 years.
40 years, yeah, in Kadesh Barnea.
Moses does not get to go into the promised land.
Right.
He gets to look at it.
Now if I interpret this right, and please people, go back and read it yourself because
I'm not looking at it.
It's been a little while.
But part of what God is kind of getting across to Moses after he strikes the rock is like
the thing that you are mad at the people for is the thing that you're also guilty of in
a different way.
Because they didn't trust me.
They're not trusting me.
And you weren't trusting me.
So you're guilty.
And God was convicting me here because I'm just so mad at everybody else's heart not
being in the right place that it was causing my heart to not be in the right place.
But I was in my own mind, you know, until God called me out, justified.
Yeah.
So, so like I would, I mean, dude, all right, so we can go there since you're the one who
brought it up.
And it's our show, right?
The preferences of the church become, whether they're vocalized or not, they become bullet
points of proving to ourselves our own self-righteousness, right?
This is right.
This is the way that this is not the way that we do things for the sake of doing things,
even though that actually is the case.
Again like you were saying, it may not have previously been so in another generation or
even a decade or go or less, right?
But the fact that I don't want to give this up, it's not supposed to happen.
This is right.
I am right, right?
And again, to me, that's self-righteousness.
As you were talking, it made me think, and I've done this so much, but I know it happens.
I know it happens day in and day out in the church body where basically, if you will,
to be smug about it, well, you should be living your life like me, but you don't.
And like when you were saying that everyone's heart was wrong, to me, that sounded like
an argument, whether you were willing to admit it, it sounds like an argument for self-righteousness.
Your heart should be like mine because mine's right.
And do you know who that reflects biblically?
The Pharisees.
Yeah, it does.
Live like us.
Trust us.
And what did Jesus say?
Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees.
Not even the king of heaven.
We have his righteousness.
Now, his righteousness, again, is through him.
We receive it as that free gift.
But when we've received it, well, we should be righteous because he's righteous and because
he made us righteous.
But yeah, we've got to check ourselves.
I think God warns us in the Bible because he knows we're going to go here in different
ways and in different places.
Hey, when you think you've got it all figured out, when you think you've reached that place,
you better check yourself before you wreck yourself.
That's the paraphrase, y'all.
But he says, let a man who thinks he stands be aware lest he falls.
There's a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is destruction.
There's a way that seems right to a man, but the end of his death.
Lean not on your own understanding, but in all ways acknowledge him and he will direct
your path.
The wisdom of man is foolishness to God.
The rest of the world is foolishness to man.
Anyway.
Brad, from my experience, I'm going to say right now, our church is experiencing something
that I've only ever heard secondhand information of.
I'm going to be honest, man.
I love being a part of it.
It's incredible what God is doing in our church.
And I'm not just saying that.
There are things that are happening, again, that throughout my lifetime, I have only heard
testimony of.
And I'm going to say something out loud because it's true.
There's a part of me that when I really take a survey of everything that God is doing,
there's a part of me that's worried.
Because when is this whole preference conversation, when is our humanity going to say, all right,
okay, that's enough.
We've had enough.
We just need to slow down.
We need to tap the brakes a little bit.
I'm getting a little uncomfortable.
Right.
Because we like comfort.
We want comfort.
I like comfort.
I know.
And here's the thing, dude.
If that's the conversation, let's have that conversation.
But it doesn't come out as that conversation, at least not in my experience.
In my experience, it comes out as we need to get rid of people or you know what, this
has gone too far.
Maybe I'm beginning to lose control.
I'm beginning to feel too uncomfortable.
Is it the Holy Spirit that's convicting me?
What point in time, not what point in time, what is the straw that will break the camel's
back that will cause any one person to try to stop what God is doing?
And the reason I said that is because I know it's not that I know it's true.
That's what I feel.
It's true that I'm experiencing that.
And I hate that.
I don't like that there's this part of me that's just going, yeah, but I wonder how
long this is going to last.
Like I have to catch myself DJ.
Stop it.
Who cares how long it lasts?
That's the part.
Who cares?
Because it's the gospel that matters.
We like green pastures and still waters.
Yes, we do.
God wants us to like green pastures and still waters because they're a place of restoration.
That's right.
But then he says, get up and come on.
Follow me.
And then we go walk through the valley of the shadow of death.
And Brad, I said this.
Why is it called that, Jesus?
Yeah, right.
Because it's not a good nickname.
That's right.
But here's the thing.
I was telling our Sunday school class this here recently, Brad.
I mentioned that in the last six months on our show, we've talked about Psalm 23 a lot.
Like it's come up a lot.
I like it.
I do too.
But something that you said that I have actually overlooked often, I was telling them this,
and you and I were talking on the show.
I don't remember which show it was, but you mentioned, what does God say in Psalm 23?
I set a table before you in front of your enemies.
And so like-
Their presence.
As what you just said, Jesus has said, come on, let's go to the valley of the shadow of
death.
We're gonna go.
Why is it that I have missed my whole life?
When I say, I suppose it's correct that Jesus is inviting us to go through the valley of
the shadow of death.
Shoot.
I mean, he came for the sick.
He came for the people that don't know him.
He came for the people that are in the valley, right?
And it is in the midst of that where God promises, and guess what?
I'm still going.
Again, I'm gonna be here, but I'm gonna set up this table for you.
Don't worry.
You're good.
Yeah, it's gonna suck.
But again, kind of wrapping back around, I do, I have that feeling, that sneaky feeling.
And I have to tell myself to shut it off because God is like, seriously, right now, I mean,
I say right now, I'm sorry for saying it that way, but like, our church is experiencing
rejuvenation.
Our church is experiencing fresh air.
And green pastures and still waters are awesome.
Yeah.
And they're supposed to be enjoyed.
And again, what I'm trying to convince myself of right here in this moment is, DJ, you know
in your heart, who cares how long that lasts?
It's not up to us.
And again, it's not up to us.
My preference, my preferences would try to get me, right, to try to take control over
it to keep that going.
It's not up to me.
But think about it this way, right?
There is a greater opportunity to worship in the valley of the shadow of death.
Dude, you're not wrong.
There's a greater opportunity than in green pastures and still waters.
When we worship when things are good, it's still worship.
Yes, it is.
But when we worship when everything sucks, I think at some point, I don't want to call
it true worship, but man, I mean, it's just like...
It's desperate worship.
It's a...
I was talking...
It is.
It's desperate worship.
It is desperate worship.
Desperate worship.
I was...Tabby and I were recounting just the other day some stuff and she had...
I was really broken a few years ago.
I mean, I was really broken.
I was discouraged.
I was like, man, I was...
My spirit was so bruised, like it just hurt.
And I was in this worship service at this leadership conference and they were singing
these beautiful worship songs, which I like.
Listen up to God.
But being authentic is really important to me.
And I felt...
I was like, God, I told God in my spirit, I was like, I don't feel like worshiping you.
Yeah.
Now, what you have to understand is part of that was I didn't feel like...
Like if I sit there and I raise my hands and I sing this with joy, that I would be being
fake to God.
So I was like, I don't want to act like it.
I don't feel like it.
I don't feel like worshiping.
And I feel like the Spirit of God said to me, worship me anyway.
Yes.
Worship me anyway.
Yes.
And it was permission for my mind and my heart.
I needed that...
Because it was like, you know what, God, I can do that.
I can sing these words to say how awesome you are, even though I feel like the opposite
right now.
Like I'm not feeling that awesomeness.
That's right.
I'm not feeling that goodness.
And I just...
So I started doing that.
And you know what happened?
Man, I mean, it's a good thing I didn't have a mic because I was weeping and singing and
probably the people in front of me were wishing I'd just stop.
But I remember, you know, our director of mission at the time, Chad, just patted me
on the back and said, you needed that, didn't you?
I mean, I just ugly cried here in this worship.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, great.
Oh, there God.
Oh, God, it's so great.
Yeah, man.
And he said, so God will bring me back to that reminder.
When I...
I don't feel like preaching today.
I don't know if people realize that, but I'm the pastor and sometimes I wake up and I
go, I don't feel like preaching today.
In the exact same way that there are mornings where I get up and be like, I have no desire
to go to work.
I want to do whatever I want to do.
Yeah.
And you know, that usually goes with the conversation with God where I'm going, I'm going to go
do what you have put in my heart, so if you'll help me.
And I will say that God shows up.
I didn't tell you how many times I've had a horrible morning and then I've got up and
started to preach and God's like, hey, it wasn't about you anyway.
So really, what's the wonderful fluffy message of the Gospels is that we're sinners, Jesus
came and died for us, lived a perfect life, died for us, and rose again to cheat death
so that we can live eternal life with him.
That's the fluffy version.
That's the smug version.
It's never about you.
If at any point in time you think it was about you, you're wrong.
You know, one of my favorite things that people who are struggling to receive Christ, struggling
to come to Christ and surrender Christ, you know, one of my favorite things that they
say, now it's hard to even get over this even when I tell them the truth, but one of the
favorite things that people say is, I don't deserve it.
I don't deserve to come to Christ and be forgiven.
I'm like, I know!
Me either.
Matter of fact, the Bible says none of us do.
None of us do.
And while we were still sinners.
Look, I got good news for you.
Right, yep.
God doesn't, like the fact that you understand that you don't deserve it is the first step
toward receiving his forgiveness.
That's the first step.
You got half the battle, G.I.
Joe.
Now you just turn.
Just turn to Jesus.
Because if somebody says, you know, I'm ready because I think I have earned it.
I think I have deserved it.
No, dude, you need some more battle practice.
Get back in the cage.
You got to keep swinging.
Gosh, you're really, man.
Oh, man.
Oh, phew.
Oh, okay.
This is a difficult one.
Yeah.
Oh, that's funny.
Brad, why don't we go ahead and close this one down, man?
This was a fun conversation.
It was.
Listeners, thank you so much for hanging out with us.
Thank you so much for being the listeners that you guys are.
We love you.
You all are the reason that we do this.
I mean, I say the reason that we do this.
Just last week, we dropped the episode where we said that we reason that we do this for
me and Brad to hang out, which is true.
But we have.
There are many reasons.
Yeah, there are many reasons.
And you are one of them.
But we love you guys.
We love interaction with you guys.
And please follow us on our Facebook group page if you don't.
MenChurchStuff.
Comment on our group page.
Let us know what you guys have to say about each week's episodes.
Trust me, it's totally fine.
And if you want to keep everything private, you can message either me or Brad.
But we also have an Instagram page.
Follow us on that, at MenChurchStuff.
We even have an email that nobody's used, but we have one just in case.
MenChurchStuff at gmail.com.
But we would love to get to know you.
We want to know what your thoughts and opinions are.
We want to know some of the topics that you might want us to talk about.
Brad and I want to hear from you guys.
We would love for that to be.
Here's your opportunity to share your preferences.
That's exactly right.
Here's your opportunity to share your preferences.
We may not change.
Right, because we have preferences too.
But yeah, thank you so much for hanging out with us.
Remember the code word for Green Frog Coffee Company this week is church.
So beyond that, Brad, I love you, buddy.
Love you too.
Listeners, we love you.
We will catch you next time.
Bye bye now.
That's all, folks.
That is all, folks.