Hello and welcome back to another episode of
Upfront and Undivided with Luke and Dean'na. Hey
babe. Hey babe. How's it going? You know, I'm
itchy. I know you are. But not poison ivy itchy.
Right. It's like allergy season funness. I'm
on the struggle bus. It's fine. We've got friends
in the studio with us today, and they're looking
at me like, you all right? You all right? I'm
like, I just wanted to cry three times today.
It's fine. I'm all right. My head is full of
snot. It's Easter weekend. He is risen. Jesus
is Lord. God, I need you to be the center of
it all right now. I need you to kill whatever's
being resurrected and making me itch. Yeah, that's
right. I have gone through, I'm not joking, I've
gone through like half a box of Kleenex. Are
we serious? Should I use this on my nose? Like,
it's raw. It hurts. That's enough about me. See?
Yes. How are we doing? Doing well. Yeah? Yeah.
It is Easter weekend. It is Easter weekend. I
keep saying that. So before we get too far in,
I will say we have Levi and Shannae O 'Brien in
the house, in the studio. Welcome, y 'all. That's
my clapping machine. Thanks for having us. It's
our first time. Levi, we were talking earlier,
Levi has been here in the studio and Shannae has
not been recorded. in the studio. So this is
the first time for her. I'm really pumped. I'm
pumped to hear from her. Do you know that Shannae's
one of my favorite people? I've heard this rumor.
Did you know this rumor? I tell this rumor to
him a lot. You are one of my favorite people.
That's nice to hear. You're just legit. Because
we were just talking about your sister -in -law,
right? Because she comes in here and she does
In the Real with me and Marsha. Heather O 'Brien.
So it's like... It's, well, you're right. No,
I'm sorry. Because I don't, I forget. Like, not
everybody listens to all of the things. Why not?
Hello? Why are we not listening to all of the
things? Well, and I have a lot of sister -in
-laws, so. It is true. You are right. You've
got to be specific. You do. I'm sorry. You're
right. So, but we were just discussing, so Levi
is Heather's little brother. And we were discussing
how Heather's very, very real. Just like, that's
just who she is. But see, I would say the same
thing about you. That you're just very, very
real. So apparently. He is fond of people that
tell it like it is. Apparently. I mean, not that
you had any choice with your sister, but you
picked somebody that just like, let's have a
conversation. Let's get real about this. And
it's important. Yeah. It's important. So how
long have you guys been married? Tell us some
of the back history, the babies, things like
that. What has it been? Almost nine years? No
way. Almost nine years. Congrats. That went fast.
I don't feel like I'm old enough. You don't look
old enough. I don't feel old enough. But yeah,
married almost nine years, three kids. What are
their ages? Six, three, and almost 11 months.
Right. What? I don't know how that happened.
That went fast. Yeah, you still need one soon.
He's so expressive. All three of your kids are
expressive. And I am not a baby person, but like
that one day I looked at you, I said, can I just
hold you? And I was like, what is wrong with
you right now? Why am I holding this child? And
he's just like, he has that effect on people.
He's sweet. He's very cute. He's sweet. Y 'all
make cute babies. Thank you. You genuinely do.
Like each one of them have such neat little personalities.
They hold their own. Yep. Yep. Yeah. All right.
Our household is very exciting. Every day. It's
very fun. And I mean that actually in a positive
way. I'm a very expressive person. And we've
seen in Aspen a very expressive girl. Very. She
will change the world someday. Yeah. For real.
After we convince her to change her clothes,
she'll change the world. That's right. Because
sometimes that's the biggest fight of the day
is just getting clothes on. But, no, we've talked
about how, like, there's a lot of similarities
to when you were growing up and stuff, too, with
her. And so it's just exciting. Yeah, we do have
very expressive kids, and we really like that.
We really like when you give them a gift, they
show you how much they love it. Like, you know,
we take them for an experience, and they're just
into it. And, like, it's all you could ask for
as a parent, really. I love that. Yeah. I love
that. So what else? How did you guys meet? We
met at church. Okay. When he was actually dating
somebody else. Wait, what? Okay, well, that's
when we first met. Like, hi, my name's Levi.
We're interested in each other. You were dating
somebody else? I was. I was dating somebody taller
than me. Man, we'll have to talk about it later
because all of a sudden I'm like, I went blank.
Like, it's been Shannae. That's all the Shannae.
That's it. Tall with curly hair. You don't remember
at all. No. That's fine. No. Good. I don't remember.
I don't want to say names, to be honest. Don't
say names. No, it's fine. We'll talk about it
after. So I was at that time, and I didn't even
hardly see that she existed as a person, to be
frank. But at that time, she was still just now
coming into this thing, trying to figure it out,
like, do I want to do this or not kind of person.
So I just didn't even. seer really and then um
later on i was working in int at the main church
with our infants and toddlers ministry and i
remember going to the person who was leading
it and like i just knew i i need to make some
sort of change i gotta make a change here something's
gotta change i gotta do something else maybe
another ministry or something and she's like
well our west campus we had a west campus at
that time needs somebody to lead the infants
and toddler ministry over there. Would you do
it? And I was like, yeah, I'll do it. So I went
there and that's when I met her. Oh, whoa. At
that time, I was no longer dating. So let's just
get that clear. I was going to have a follow
-up question, but there you go. No, it had been,
I think, more than several months after. um met
her and started noticing like this girl is doing
things she doesn't necessarily want to do i would
see her at pre -service prayer all the time which
greeting she was greeting and i knew that wasn't
necessary that is not my personality to be talking
to everybody that comes in the door and so i
noticed those things and like she just had a
heart after god and was pursuing her i think
at that point you'd been here a year and so it
had gotten to the point where this is what i
want and what i'm doing yeah right like she had
been transformed then i noticed her you know
and um and so then i just started talking to
her about the weather and things like that like
anything i could i could think of i didn't know
it's february okay it's february in missouri
yes and he says so it's cold outside i go yeah
it's february Like, what are you supposed to
say to that? That's what I appreciate about Levi,
his smoothness. I mean, that is smooth. Yeah.
It's cold outside. I mean, and so then I would
just, like, every time there was a service, I
would just, like, try to get some conversation
with her going. Yeah. Although he did have to
go to my brother and say, yeah, so your sister,
my brother said, Shannae? Yeah, Shannae. Because
he didn't know how to. Say my name. I read it
on Facebook. I didn't know how to say it. Your
name, just like Dean'na's name, is unique. And it's
like, I can really butcher this. I don't want
to out loud. I got called Shane a lot growing
up. It makes sense. I've heard you called Shanna
or Shannon. Shanna. Shannon's my sister's name,
though, so not me. But I have been called that
many times. I love that. And then so how long
was it before you finally broke her down? Well,
it wasn't even him. Because I'm talking to my
brother Derek and my sister -in -law Sabrina,
and I'm like, how do I nicely tell someone I'm
not interested? I was like, he was homeschooled.
He's loved Jesus forever. I was a pretty messy
person. I just don't think that's a good idea.
He's thinking, she talks to me. He got my phone
number, so I would text him back because he would
ask questions that I couldn't just ignore because
I didn't want to be a jerk. Smooth. I'm like,
how do I get rid of this person? Right, right.
But then church happened. He was on stage praying,
and I find myself staring at him, and I catch
myself and go, what the heck are you doing? People
can see that you're just staring at this guy.
And then God says, hey. I'm like, no. And God
says, yeah, look at him. No. And then the Lord
said to me, you're really going to let your past
get in the way of your future. And very immediately
I said, yes, absolutely. You're honest. And God's
like, come on. I'm like, okay, fine. We can try
it out. Okay. Yeah. I will let the walls come
down. I will have a conversation with him. Yeah.
And just see what happens. And it was like an
immediate change. Oh, my gosh. I come down from
the stage and start talking to her. And it was
like a whole new world. I'm like, wow, where
is this conversation? I didn't even realize I
was being walled up. To be honest, God just blinded
me to it. I'm like, things are going well. We're
having these good conversations. But then that
night, it's just another level. And from there,
it just kind of went. Well, because you had always
said you wanted someone who was interested in
you for how you loved God and not really for
who you were, but for what they could see in
you. Yeah, I wanted somebody I married. I wanted
them to be attracted to me because of my relationship
with God. wow and so on the stage praying in
front of the church is when she was like i'm
staring at this guy i'm wow and i always prayed
for that i always wanted because it was such
an important part of who i was i needed them
to be someone who would value a relationship
with god that it would be attractive to them
and that's what pulled her in i love that that's
what it was i love that No, I do. And that's
a bold, that's a bold prayer. Like, I mean, babe,
you're hot, but you know what I'm saying? Like,
you just want to go, okay, but you love Jesus.
Do you love Jesus? Because we say that to our
daughter all the time. It's like, listen, this,
all of this, like it changes, it shifts. It's
always doing something different. But this, that,
like all of that, like. That's what you want.
You want somebody that's pursuing God, that loves
God, because they're going to see you with the
eyes of the Lord as opposed to the physical,
the shallow. Yeah. Wow. Look at you, girl. That's
deep. Should that start leading us into why we
really came here to talk today? I think that
would be interesting. Yeah, you jump in any time
you want to. Why are y 'all here? Why are we
here? Because y 'all had a conversation with
us a couple few months ago. Has it been that
long? I think so. Yeah, it has been that long.
Yeah, it's been a while. So this is kind of the
follow -up to that conversation. Sure. So one
and or both of you, the floor is yours. Yeah,
so you want me to kind of tell? So it was December
6, 2023. It was a Wednesday night. We were working
at the church that night, and I knew the whole
day. I have something I've got to tell Shannae.
And kind of the week leading up to that, I had
reached out to a buddy who came to our church
there for a while that I knew had gone through
this, and I told him, hey man, I have an addiction
to pornography, and I need help. And he's talking
to me about it, and I'm like, what can I do?
You know, I'm honestly just at this point like,
okay, I have an issue I need to overcome. Because
for a while there, I kind of just... Didn't see
it as the issue that it was because it was so
infrequent in ways. And I was able to deceive.
I was deceived. Deception isn't deception if
it's not 100%. Right. I was totally deceived
by this thing. That's good. I didn't recognize
it until God started leading me through a humility
thing, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it led me
to this point to call this guy. He tells me,
you need to tell your wife. I told him I will
not do that. I was like, there is literally anything
else in the world for me to do. I would do that.
And real quick, I will say that because we have
interviewed them. It was Dustin Weidman. So I
can get the reference later for anybody that
wants to follow up on that. But we have interviewed
them. We did talk to them in here. Great, great
couple. Amazing couple. And I'm so glad, grateful
for them because of all this. So he told me that's
what I needed to do. And I was like, I will do
literally anything else. And because I knew how
it would devastate her. And also in a selfish
way, I knew how it would devastate me. And I
knew what insecurities it would attack in her,
too. I didn't want to do that either. And so
for the next three days, I am in hell. It is
like God is just pressing on me so hard, I can't
think about anything else. This is God at this
point. Like, hey, you've opened this door. Now
we're going through it, whether you want to or
not. And I am in misery for like three days.
So finally, I have a group of friends that we
communicate with and things like that. They reached
out. We're like, hey, we need to start getting
more honest with each other. It just happened
to be. Hey, we need a separate time where we're
all talking to each other, being more honest.
I think we're good friends, but we really need
to get into real life things. So I was like,
well, I'm going to tell them. So I told them.
about what was going on and also that i need
to tell shanae because i knew if i didn't tell
them i didn't know if i was going to do it but
this was going to hold me accountable so that
held me accountable so then fast forward december
6 2023 i will never forget that date and i'm
coming home like oh my god i gotta tell this
girl what's going on um the kids go to bed It
was afterwards. You were sitting in the chair
in the living room. I come out and sit down.
I'm like, I'm about to have a really serious
conversation with her. She looks like, world
is wonderful. Kids finally went to bed. It's
time to relax kind of thing. Let's kick it back.
That's the mode she's going into. And so I begin
to tell her. And that was really hard. I was
shaking on the inside, vibrating. I don't think
I truly knew. what was going to happen next yeah
um but after going through it i definitely would
have done it again and we'll get into some of
that too but because i guess i'll say this real
quick you don't realize how pornography emotionally
locks you up emotionally and in a very like i
was living but i wasn't really experiencing life
i could feel some yeah But I could not. After
I told her and got actually 100 % honest, I could
feel. And I had these floods of emotions that
I hadn't felt in years. And just life flooding
to me where I'm in this. At that time, it was
a very difficult situation. I'll let you tell
your side of things. But I was feeling life again
that I was in a really good place despite how
terrible that current. couple days especially
were yeah afterwards yeah yeah i was just like
i would definitely do this again because i can
i can feel yeah i'd get angry and i'm like i
don't remember the last time i was angry yeah
like i would get um i would get um just like
these emotions of things a sadness and stuff
and like i feel it's okay i can work through
this and like actually process through it but
it locks you up so much and i don't think people
talk about that enough how You can quote unquote
get away with it. Yeah. Or kind of push it to
the side and still be living life. But you're
not really living life. It almost makes you numb.
Exactly. In a space. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Extremely.
And I didn't realize how much had been stolen
from me on that. And from our family. Yeah. So
how did you respond, Shannae? Because let me caveat.
You guys came to us. whenever I guess kind of
after everything settled a bit. Yeah. And we
even said, why did you guys come to us? And you
were like, because this is, you guys are willing
to have the conversations. Yeah. Cause nobody's
talking about it. Nobody's talking about. Yeah.
Yeah. It's like these, we have all these amazing
marriages because you guys do. You have an amazing
marriage. Very sweet, very sweet family, amazing
family. But it is, it's those secret. sins per
se or those things that get in there and they
just lock into you and then it it takes you on
a ride that you didn't need to be going on so
how did you respond when he told you it was surprisingly
calm at first because the rug is being pulled
out from underneath yeah you know because he
did he sat down in one of our kids chairs across
from me and i'm thinking like what the heck are
you doing yeah you know he was very quiet on
the way home from church which was not normal
yeah so i'm like he must just be really thinking
about something and i like i think i had asked
him like are you okay yeah he's like yeah i'm
just thinking like okay That was an interaction
we'd have a lot because he'd be kind of out in
space a little bit sometimes and I'm like, are
you okay? Yeah, I'm fine. And so he sits down
across from me and then tells me and I am stunned
to say the least. It was very eerily calm. And
then immediately I'm like, for how long? How
often are you doing this? yeah yeah like you've
been doing this where have you been doing this
yeah you know so all these questions start happening
and then of course one of our kids comes out
of their room so i just get up go to my room
shut the door because i'm not about to let my
kids see me because i know on the outside i i'm
like calm but i can tell that there's a rage
inside of me that's about to explode yeah so
I excuse myself and he deals with our kid, gets
him back to bed. And it's not like good, but
I came out of the room and went to him and started
punching him. Cause I was so angry. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And he just sat there and took it. And
I was, I'm like, you're going to tell me everything
and you're going to tell me everything right
now. Yeah. Yeah. and so he starts telling me
i'm like how long has this been going on and
at that time he said like well like three or
four years and so immediately i'm like okay well
our son is we're seven years into marriage at
this point right and so i'm like thinking like
okay well our son is this old so oh so you started
doing this after i had a baby and my body's not
the same dang yeah So then, of course, as a woman,
my brain is just like, yeah, you're not good
enough. Your body sucks after you had a kid.
And now you have had two kids and there's another
one on the way. So he's really not attracted
to you. Yeah. And that wasn't the truth, actually.
Yeah. That wasn't the truth. It wasn't the whole
truth. And I hadn't said everything yet. And
it's so funny how when you lie and hide something
for so long, you can't get it. out it's like
i couldn't and so i you know she's at that moment
currently hitting me asking me how i was like
four years you know like i yeah it was you panicked
yeah i panicked and like i'm trying to i was
like for some reason in my mind that felt like
it was yeah i was still trying to hide yeah i
still was a hundred percent and it took it took
time to get to a hundred percent and it took
pushing from her like it took me physically like
give me your phone And so I start reading through.
This was like the next day. I start reading through
the text messages that he sent to his group of
friends. And I find out that, no, it's been our
entire marriage, really. And so then I'm like,
okay, so not only did you lie to me for this
long, but then when you told me the truth, you
still lied. I made it much, much worse. Wisdom,
if you do this with your spouse. prepare yourself.
I should have wrote it out. I considered doing
that and I should have everything a hundred percent.
It's a good idea. Yeah. And finally we ended
up, I don't know if we should tell the whole
story cause I think some of the after stuff is
really, really, really good from you, especially
on this. But we, we ended up getting over the
course of a couple of days and yeah, it was the
next day. Finally, a hundred percent everything
on the table where, how, how often from the age
I was 12. Actually, all the way up. Had a year
in the school ministry where I didn't. Got back
to it. Told somebody about it to try to help.
They were kind of just like, ew, gross. Please
tell me you're done. Had a pretty bad reaction.
So shame. You have shame on top of all of that.
That just added on to fear. There were other
people in my life who had known, even when I
was younger, never talked to me about it. Just
kind of like... almost brushed it aside like
we're not going to talk about it yeah um and
so i think that added to the fear of telling
my wife especially yeah because of just that
the reactions um and then i knew it was going
to really hurt that identity of hers but it was
still the right thing to do and it was the only
thing that has set me free yeah wow the i tried
everything I could think. Yeah. It was the only
way to do it. So if you're in a marriage and
you struggle with this, get some accountability
with some other guys around you. Hopefully someone
else who's been through it, maybe, if you can
find one, right? Because you're going to want
your spouse to talk to their spouse. And then
tell your wife. Yeah. And tell her 100 % all
of it, everything you can think of. Yeah. I mean,
I was asked, I'm like, well, what, like what
sites are you going to? I think I spent like
30 minutes blocking websites on his phone, you
know? Cause I'm like, you're going to tell me
everything. Yeah. And if I find out that you
lied about something again, we're really going
to have a problem. Yeah. Right. But yeah, be,
be Israel. as you were in the car when we were
on the way over here. Tell them what was happening
during those couple days for you after I told
you I go to work the next day. We can mark a
little box that says this is explicit. So if
you so choose. Yeah, because I more than one
time, and your sister included, cuss in here.
It's real. You've got to be real. It is. And
God is not scared of that. He's not scared of
us being real. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so
he tells me and I'm like, okay, we're those people.
Like, I'll just tell everybody we sleep naked.
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I'm like, it's late at
night. I'm exhausted. But then I'm like, well,
my whole world just blew up in my face. So what
am I going to do? Go to sleep now? Right. But
I remember being like, I am sleeping in close
tonight. You will not see me naked. You will
not touch me. You will not kiss me. stay away
from me right right and i don't i think i maybe
got an hour of sleep that night because my mind
is just everywhere i'm like yeah i didn't i didn't
want to be in the bed with him so i went to the
couch and then he ends up coming out and he's
trying to talk to me and i'm like i just don't
understand i'm just crying Yeah. Balling. And
I'm thinking about my kids. Like I am pregnant
at the time. Right. You know. Right. So it's
just all of this. Drop a bomb plus you being
hormonal. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm like sitting
there thinking like, are you freaking kidding
me? Right. Like we have a third kid on the way.
Yeah. And I'm dealing with this now. And he ends
up like he calls into work the next day because
I was like, I'm. I'm not going to be capable
of taking care of my children. Yeah. But also
like, what am I going to do? Call my mother -in
-law and be like, Hey, can you come watch my
kids today? Because my life's falling apart,
but I can't tell you why, you know? And so the
next morning I have, you know, I have my two
sister -in -laws and then a really great friend,
basically I consider her family. And so I text
all three of them and I was like, well, this
is what Levi told me last night and I don't know
what to do. And immediately my friend, she calls
me and she was like, hey, first of all, I want
you to know this is not your fault. And I'm just
like, can't comprehend that because I'm thinking
it has to be my fault. Why else would he go and
look at other women? It has to be my fault. And
she's like, it is not your fault. So she's talking
me through this and all three of them are like,
you need to talk to Tori. Yeah. And I'm like,
okay, okay. So I get off the phone with my friend.
I text Tori. I'm like, can we talk? Yeah. And
she's like, yeah, call me. So I call her and
right away she's like, this is not your fault.
She's like, and if I'm being honest, it actually
has nothing to do with you. Yeah. Again, I'm
like, it has to do something with me. I just
can't comprehend that at all. But she's like,
listen, you got to let yourself feel everything.
And we're going to talk this through and we're
going to figure out some next steps and what
you need to do. So, I mean, I was on the phone
with her for a while and just telling her. this
is what's been happening you know i asked him
all the questions and she was like and that's
the thing if you want answers to the questions
ask them but sometimes there's questions that
you're like i don't need to ask that and i don't
want the answer yeah and that's fine yeah just
figure out like what do you need to know what
do you not need to know and um so then she's
like you do you know like how old he was when
he was first exposed to this i'm like well yeah
12 like we had we had had this conversation before
even when we were dating we talked about yeah
porn yeah and so that's another thing i'm like
i lied we talked about this yeah yeah so that
was another thing where she's like so he's been
lying specifically lying for a while yeah and
that was true yeah i'm like we specifically when
we started dating i was like listen I'm going
to be completely honest about my past, the things
I've done. I slept around in college. And if
you can't handle that, then you're not the person
for me. I was exposed to porn when I was in third
grade. So I had the perspective of, what's it
like to have a porn addiction? And I was very
honest about everything with him. And then I
look back and go, how could you have lied to
me then when I was so honest with you? So that
was something we talked about. She's like, Tori's
like, okay, so what you might need to do is look
at him like he is still that 12 year old boy.
Yeah. Getting exposed to something and you know
what it's like to be exposed to that. Right.
Yeah. And that really helped shift my mindset
because I was, I was really struggling when he
told me with like, if we didn't have kids, you
would not be in my house. And that was a very
scary thought for me. Yeah. Because I'm like,
this is a person that I love. Yeah. Like I said,
I do to you and we have three kids and like,
what the heck? Right. Yeah. And I think, um,
you don't just say things. She very well meant
that when she told me and I knew she meant it.
Yeah. And I remember being at, cause Thursday
I was off. Friday, I went to work, and I remember
being at work like, I don't know. I don't know
if I have a marriage. I actually don't know.
Not like, oh, it might be this extreme. It was.
And even in that, I would do it again because
of the freedom that came to me. So it's funny.
I'm experiencing extreme freedom. And she's experiencing
now having to deal with all the crap. Yeah. In
a way. Right. So that. Yeah. But I'm like looking
at my kids going, if I kick their dad out of
this house, I'm going to have to explain to my
very young children why their dad's not here.
Very inquisitive. Yes. Yes. Extremely. Like our
oldest son, he would not have let it go at the
time. Yeah. And I don't, I. just kept being like,
I don't know what I'd say to them. So I can't
kick him out. He knew something was going on
and he asked me and I told him, I said, dad lied
to your mom and hurt your mom. Yeah. And we're
working through that. You know, I've told her
sorry and she's forgiven me, but we're working
through it. And I remember he's just like. why
would you lie to mom? I'm like, I know I shouldn't
have done that. And so then even later on, a
couple of weeks later, he was like, dad, are
you going to lie to mom again? Nobody, but being
that honest with him in the way that I think
he could understand, I wasn't trying to hide
anything per se in the way that he could understand.
Cause at the time he was just newly five. Yeah.
And so, um, was good. was really good and valuable
absolutely um and i still think we'll prove valuable
later on with life and stuff like that we can
be honest with each other in front of them and
they see us work through things i think that's
going to be valuable for them in the future with
a relationship but yeah i think that that's a
really good point let me interject just for a
second i think that's a really good point because
i know a lot of times um We encounter different
ones that are like, I don't want to have a conversation
with my children about what's going on in my
marriage. Right. Like you have the extremes almost.
You have the people that are arguing in front
of their children and then you have the other
ones that are arguing behind closed doors. But
then it's like not like the kids don't know anything.
I was raised in that house to where it's like
all of a sudden they're divorced and you're going.
You have no idea what's going on. And so for
the fact that I want to commend you guys for
being honest the best way that you could with
as much information as they can absorb. Because
I believe in those kind of moments. We were actually
just talking about this last night. Like, Gabri,
when we got married, Gabri was seven. And our
first three years were really, really hard. It's
just you're not melding just two people together.
You have three. And then it's like we would have
the arguments. We would have the conversations,
the hard things. But what it teaches your children
over the time being is, number one, they can
come to mom and dad. They can have a conversation
with you. They can have those hard conversations.
Listen, we struggled. Listen, this is what we
dealt with because one day this will be a conversation.
I have no doubt in my mind that you guys will
be honest with your children. And when they hear
that you are honest and mom and dad are not perfect,
but they have a God that comes in and helps guide
you and rescue you through it. That's where they
get to start learning and leaning into that space.
You know what I mean? So I would say even for
the listeners that are in this space with y 'all
or where you guys were, to give as much, just
be honest. Give as much information as they can,
you know, again. When they're five, that's completely
different. Seven, completely different. But again,
you know. For the most part, parents know their
kids and have a really good idea of what level
of explanation they can get. Absolutely. You
know, and so it is. You look at your five -year
-old, you're, you know, probably Aspen was too
young. And she wasn't even two yet. She was about
to be two. I don't think she knew anything was
going on. But it is. It's like even if there
was a question like, oh, hey, I know something's
wrong. Not really. But you do. You look at that
child and you say, hey, here's what's going on.
Or a 10 -year -old. If Sebastian were to look
at us and be like, I know something's wrong.
What's wrong? And then have the conversation
as best as possible because you guys are breaking
things, right? Like, you're breaking things.
There's, like, I'm hearing both of you, both
of you dealing with porn somewhere along the
way. Okay, well, that means the enemy is gunning,
right? He plays dirty. I think we forget sometimes
that porn isn't just a guy thing. It's a girl
thing, too. Absolutely, we can get caught up
with it. You've got the books that are the romance
novels. It's porn. I'm just going to call it
like it is. You know what I'm saying? The soap
operas, it's soft, soft porn. I'm doing quotation
marks. But it's a doorway. It's a doorway for
the enemy to go, oh, we're just going to hook
you a little bit more and a little bit more.
And then it objectifies us as women, men. This
is how it's supposed to look. This is how it's
supposed to appear, right? This is how we're
supposed to be responding. This is how you're,
it just, it muddies it and it gets it raw and
just. gross right but what it does is when we're
honest with our children when we're honest with
our friends because i know that you guys have
been honest with friends and family and the first
thing you said levi when you guys came into the
house is this has unlocked spaces and you have
created a safe place for other people to be real
about things too whether it's pornography or
whether it's something else that they're just
can't get rid of right and your children are
going to benefit from that because If and when
the enemy comes at them, whether it's through
this avenue or something else, they now know
mom and dad did this. And mom and dad know the
answers and they're going to help me get through
it. Right. Right. Yeah. And I think for us, there's
several things I could say, actually. But I definitely
wanted more from you on things you went through.
But like me being. 100 honest wasn't just for
that moment right it was afterwards too and just
she began to see a new person that she was married
to yeah so yes i told her and devastated her
blew up her world really but because it is an
affair i don't care what people say or think
or how they want to make light it is an affair
yeah against my wife it was you know cheating
whatever you want to say it's nothing lighter
than that it is that right and so i was a hundred
percent in that everything she'd asked me how
i was and i was like well i'm feeling this right
now and you know this thing over there and she
never ever got those types of answers from me
before wow i couldn't yeah i couldn't process
fully my emotions our deepest conversations were
still mostly surface level and so suddenly she's
like running into this new person wow that she's
married to and like like valuing it so much while
at the same time i think feeling some like real
deep hurt and anger and well just also like Before,
I'm like, okay, we have a financial issue, and
I'm like, are we going to be okay? And he's like,
yeah, we're going to be fine. To now, I'm asking
him, are we going to be okay? Are we going to
make it to payday? And he's like, I don't know.
I'm like, what do you mean you don't know? You
don't have an answer for me? What am I supposed
to do with that? I want that answer back there.
I'm like, what do you mean you don't know? You're
supposed to know everything. I felt like I was
supposed to always have the answer. I couldn't
show wrong. I couldn't show that. I had an image
to uphold with her and everyone else. I felt
like I had an image of who I needed to be. And
I tricked myself into thinking I'm trying to
live up to what God is calling me to. When in
reality, you're portraying a mirage of someone
you're not actually. Wow, that's good, Levi.
And, you know, it was deception. It was deception.
I was 100 % deceived. So then I started getting
real. It's so random. I don't know if I should
bring it up, but it's so random. I never cussed
before, ever. I would make her feel almost ashamed
of herself if she said a cuss word. We don't
talk about that. We don't talk like that, babe.
Or if I listen to a certain song in the car that
had a cuss word, he's like, change it. I'm like,
okay. Obviously, you don't want certain things
around your kids or whatever, but it would just...
It'd be just me and him. Right. Yeah. sorry i
cuss now because it's just real life like yes
i'm living real life i have real emotions and
like it was just like ah that image thing that
religion religiosity thing of like it just went
away completely i remember like two weeks after
this happened my relationship with god was like
i just didn't even have i don't know i don't
know where it is i'm not reading my bible currently
i'm not praying i'm just talking and living and
experiencing everything i can't even keep track
of everything right now i'm feeling so much right
and just this flood of stuff and so i remember
christy asked me like so how's your relationship
with god going and i was like i have no idea
you know and i that was so real i was just so
raw and real like i haven't gotten there yet
like i mean and that was definitely never gonna
be a levi answer before this yeah i there was
there is definitely a before and after for my
life and our marriage i would say too yeah um
and then we started seeing other couples we as
we're going through this telling people what's
happening with us and stuff like that and where
we're at and like they start having their own
conversations well lo and behold right yeah and
so honesty starts coming to the forefront in
these other relationships not necessarily the
same thing but similar things or yeah or just
like hey you got to deal with this and nobody's
being honest kind of stuff that these other couples
were dealing with and so they started like, they're
having these great experiences coming to me like,
Hey man, thank you. And I'm like, thank me for
what? You know, like I am literally the lowest
person in the room right now. Do you know what
I did to my wife? Yeah. Like, and I have agreed
with the honesty of who I actually am for once
in my life. And it's ugly. Yeah. And I feel amazing,
but so humbled to just like, and, That's such
a good place to be. That's such a good place
to be of just humility and just who are you actually.
Yeah. Well, and that's something. My brother
Derek would be like, Levi, just tell me how you
really feel. Right. Just tell me. Yeah. This
is before. Yeah, before. People would get so
frustrated because it's like, you give me the
perfect answers, but tell me what you're actually
thinking. Yeah. But he couldn't. Yeah. He was
incapable. He was just in such a fog that he
didn't even know. That's crazy. Didn't know.
Yeah. I didn't know. So it's just a thing now.
At first, for those first few months, especially,
my friends would look at me and be like, I'm
proud of you for using that cuss word. That's
awesome. That's awesome. But it was actually
freedom for me. Yeah. Because it was real. I
was being 100%. And so I think. Telling more
from your perspective of how you kind of were
starting to deal with things. Specifically when
I came home Friday from work. Well, okay. So
to get to that point, when I had been on the
phone with Tori, I remember saying, I just flat
out go, I didn't sign up for this. She goes,
well, you did. Yeah, you did. When you said I
do. Yep. And it hit me like a ton of bricks.
And I said, well, shit, I did. Yep. yep you're
you're right i did sign up for this but didn't
expect it yeah and she was like listen if you
need a break if you need to leave the house if
you need him to leave the house do whatever you
need to do yeah like you are allowed to feel
what you're feeling and you need to feel it yeah
because if you don't you're not going to get
through it and you know she had told me that
when they had gone through it people had told
her like well porn's no big deal Sorry, what?
If you're someone going through this and someone
tells you that, run away. As fast as you can.
Yes, because it's a very big deal. Like you said,
because of course I start going on, I'm Googling,
what do you do when your husband tells you he's
addicted to porn? Wow. First of all, the statistics
are shocking. Do you remember any of them? I
mean, it's like 70 to 80%. of men are addicted
to porn and then when you look at it for pastors
yeah the percentage of pastors who struggle with
porn addiction wow yeah people in church it's
it's it's what i think i looked up the stats
once too it's like over 90 or over 95 of young
men have been at least been exposed dang yeah
yeah dang it yeah it's really bad and it's like
it's in the world but then like statistics in
the church yeah and then it's not being talked
about which is even more shocking yeah which
almost makes it worse yeah oh yeah this thing
remains in the dark yeah and it's like i mean
mom and dad i love you and i'm not talking bad
about you i'm just it is what it is come on no
it's true but it's real you know like i grew
up with being told well just don't do this yeah
okay but why Well, because the Bible says it's
a sin, so don't do it. Right. But then, you know,
I'm exposed in third grade and it wasn't even
anybody's fault. It was like, you know, we had
TV and we had like a thousand channels back then.
And we were watching a movie on HBO and fell
asleep in the living room. And of course, the
middle of the night back then on HBO is like,
yep, yep. You know, and I happened to wake up.
wow and i'm like what is this yeah and so yeah
it's not really anybody's fault it just happened
and then i'm like well okay well why is this
bad right so being eight or nine years old there's
just a curiosity and then you get older and then
you're at school and your friends are talking
about stuff and you're like wait what are you
talking about right you know and so then it It
bled over into as I'm going into college that
I'm like, okay, well, everybody always tells
you don't do this, but they never tell you why.
So can it really be that bad? Yeah. Yep. And
you don't think about the long -term consequences
because nobody's told you. Right. It was basically
like, yeah, just don't do it because it's a sin.
And if you get pregnant and you're not married,
that's going to be really hard. Okay. Right.
But that's still not really telling me why I
shouldn't. Right. So then I'm like, well, let
me just find out for myself. It doesn't tell
you about the repercussions as far as the soul
ties. It doesn't tell you about how it twists
you up. I mean, like you said, Levi, you're numb.
Like you're happy -ish, but like not joyful.
Like it's all of those almost there, but not
quite. there and then your perspective on what
you think things need to look like and how people
need to act and and then it just takes you and
takes you and takes you yeah we will we will
constantly talk about before and after for our
marriage so like for instance when we would go
on dates and back then for me before it was like
this is a big moment and it needs to go well
because it was the only time we really deeply
connected And so this needs to go well. I would
be nervous going into it and stuff like going
on a date with her, you know? And we're married.
Going on a date when you're married is a good
thing to do, right? Right. And now, afterwards,
we constantly connect. Deeply, meaningfully,
regular days. So when we go on a date, it's so
light and joyful and carefree. We're laughing,
connecting, obviously having deep conversations
when and if they come up on our dates. Sometimes
they do, sometimes they don't, right? And like
just enjoying it. Whereas before it was like,
this is a big moment and it needs to go well
because it's the only time that I ever get myself
to a place to have anything deep and meaningful
with her. You see what I mean? I do. That's who
I was before. I do. And so I would be so nervous
going into a date. Like, this is going to help
us for the next two months here if I get this
thing right. Whereas now, on a Wednesday night,
your kids go to bed. I don't know why Wednesdays.
We're all over Wednesdays. Trying to redeem those
Wednesday nights. Yeah, that's right. The kids
go to bed, things like that. And we just have,
well, you know, something's going on. We'll talk.
And it's like an hour later, it's like, man,
I am so glad we talked about XYZ with our budget
or school with Ace of School or this thing with
one of the kids or whatever, or like other family
members. Like, how do we work through this situation?
Like, it's so deep and meaningful. And I'm so
glad I have it. And she's amazing. Shanae is
amazing and strong and full of wisdom. And I'm
experiencing that more and more and more. Whereas
like before I had the answer or tried to. Now
I'm humbled and we just connect and work as a
team. Didn't have that before. Or even before,
like I am a funny person. Okay. I think you're
hilarious. I'm telling you, you're one of my
favorite people. And like before I'd say something
funny or something witty, you know, and he would
be like, oh yeah, that's funny. I'm like, I am
freaking funny. What is your deal? Now after,
he genuinely laughs. I'm like, just something
like that. You wouldn't think of that being anything
that would be different. But I'm like, I'm glad
you finally realized how funny I am. I love that.
So much. So many things we could go on and on
and on have changed for us and changed for me
and us, you know, from this that like, we'll
constantly just be like, oh my gosh, before.
xyz after xyz i can't even think of every example
right now but that's a one of the ones um i'll
ask the obvious because again we we are we there
is nothing off limits in this world but um as
far as even your intimacy because there are going
to be people that are going to be like hey what
are we doing like now that now that you know
that this is what's been happening you are three
kiddamos in and you are like we usually sleep
naked and now i'm like putting my clothes on
like you kind of stopped at that spot so like
yeah take me back there and take me through the
process as far as what happened there because
you told me something specific yeah that god
told you to do um yeah so that first night i
did i'm like the one pair of pajamas on that
I own. When you go see the in -laws and stuff.
This is weird, but you're not looking at me,
so I'm going to do what I need to do. Again,
I got one, maybe two hours of sleep, then go
through the whole next day, and the kids are
just kind of existing. Asa knows something's
going on, but doesn't really know. when they
took a nap that day we're like really hashing
stuff out and i'm like he finally told me the
complete truth yeah and i was just like okay
i don't i don't really know what's next yeah
but okay yeah and we get through the rest of
that day he goes to work friday and i'm just
like all right god what do i do yeah because
i i don't know yeah and i'm still wrestling with
do i make him leave do i let him stay i i just
know i don't want this to be my marriage right
and so finally i'm like okay i'm gonna write
a letter and just write out everything i'm feeling
everything i'm thinking i just need to get it
on paper and out of my head yeah and i must have
spent an hour just writing down everything i
don't i don't know it was like eight or nine
pages wow wow very long yeah and then like my
kids were sleeping and i remember i i laid down
and i fell asleep and it was like the best sleep
i had gotten in a very long time wow and he comes
home from work and he like He picked up dinner
on the way home because it's like, you know,
nobody's cooking in this house. We don't know
what's going on. We don't know if we're still
going to be married or not. And I remember he
walked through the door and I saw him and I just
started bawling. And so he like comes over to
me and I grabbed him and I said, I need you to
get better because I can't do this. Yeah. And
it was like once I got everything out of my head,
I was able to think clearly of, OK, do I want
to fight for my marriage or am I just I'm just
going to let it go? Yeah. And I remember thinking
like, no, I said I do for better or for worse.
And this is the worst, clearly. Yeah. But it
better be. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, but but I did.
I said I do. Yeah. And. I'm looking at my kids.
I've got the third one kicking around in my belly.
I'm like, I want better for my kids. I'm going
to fight for this. We're going to get through
it. He's going to get better because that's the
only option he has. That was a huge moment because
I'm driving home. At this point, I don't know.
I don't know anything. I don't know where this
marriage is going. I don't know. When I came
home and she was crying like that, looking at
me, not... anger but with love and pulled me
in and said that it just broke everything open
for us and um and from there we started healing
and i would say rapidly well yeah because we
went to church it was a friday we went to church
and like all of our friends are walking in like
not really knowing what they're going to walk
into and they see us we're like holding hands
as we come in and they're like what's going on?
It's before church, so I'm trying to give him
all the footnotes. This happened. We'll have
to tell you more later, but we're okay. Is she
going to sacrifice him on the altar? Our daughter's
birthday is two weeks from then, so my parents
are going to be coming to town. We're going to
be around everybody. horrible timing for ruining
my life thanks a lot right but it was they were
just like what's what's what happened yeah i'm
like this is it's purely the lord because if
it were just us trying to navigate this we would
not be in this position yeah like the only explanation
is the lord because he told me two days ago and
i wanted to kill him and now i'm like i see this
person That I want to help and I want him to
get better and I want to have the best version
of my husband for the rest of my life. I love
that. Yeah. You know, and I want my kids to have
the best dad. Yeah. And, but it was, everybody
was just like shocked. I'm like, I'm shocked
too. Okay. I don't, I don't know. Yeah. And then
that night. Yeah. So that night we had a phone
call with Destin and Tori and he is bawling.
Oh. And I'm like, I used to make fun of him because
I'm like, I've never seen you cry. Even a single
tear. Once. Never. One time. Ever. Out of the
seven years that you guys have been married.
We've been married seven years, had dated a year
and a half -ish before that. Had two kids be
born. I'm like, you've never shed a single tear.
You were locked up. Bad. Holy cow. I didn't know
how bad it was. When he's like sobbing on the
phone and I'm like looking at him like. what
is wrong with you? Yeah. Because it was so foreign.
Yeah. Like, I've never seen you cry, and now
here you are bawling like a baby. Yeah. And I'm
uncomfortable because I don't know what to do
with it. Wow. Yeah. But it was good. I'm like,
okay. Because I remember looking at him, because
people were like, people asked me after the fact,
like, well, how do you know that he's changed?
I said, because I can see it in his eyes when
I look at him. Yeah. I'm like, I can't really
explain it other than that, but I can see it
in him that he's not just telling me that he
wants to get free, but he actually means it.
Yeah. Because there was just an honesty and an
openness and then emotionally I was coming alive.
So she was experiencing. After that phone call,
I'm like wrestling with myself on the phone and
we get off the phone and I'm like, I don't know.
I don't know what's going on. And he looks at
me and he's like, are you okay? And I was like,
I want to have sex, but I don't know if that's
allowed. And he's like, yeah, I mean, I think.
He's like, yeah, I think it is. I'm like, but
is it? Should we be here already? I don't know.
I remember you looked at me and you said, I want
to have my husband back. like and like having
sex is that commitment and covenant really and
it's really fun and you know and and she and
but it she i said she said i want almost like
i'm taking you back yeah you know what i mean
from this thing that has come on yeah and um
that was really big for us well yeah i mean because
even before it's like He would always try to
initiate. And for whatever reason, it'd be like,
I just don't. You're not connecting. Like, is
my body broken? Because I just don't really feel
like having sex. Yeah. And then, you know, it's
like, okay, it could be explained when I had
a baby. So I'm going through the postpartum stuff.
But then it was like, you know, my kids are,
I've had them a while ago. So I should be fine
now. Right. And I'm thinking, like, there's something
wrong with me. And he's thinking like, well,
my wife just must really not like me that much
because she never wants to have sex. Oh, I hate
the enemy. Not knowing the whole time, it was
me. Yeah. That thing, whether you want it to
or not, affects your family. Come on, Levi. It
was affecting her and she didn't even know she
was fighting an invisible enemy. Yeah. She didn't
even know. So if you have something like that
in your life, your family is fighting something
they can't see. Yeah. And probably thinking there's
something wrong with them. And it wasn't even
that. Like, I would try to get somewhere new
in my relationship with God. And it was like,
I would feel like I was getting there and then
hit a wall. And I'm like, something's wrong with
me because I cannot get past this wall. Yeah.
Yeah. And then, yeah, to find out, like, well,
no, it wasn't really you. Yeah. Yeah. And to
that point, immediately, it's just you feel a
sense of loss. Of the seven years, what our marriage
could have been. And the enemy will try to use
that for shame. And again, that sense of loss
of time and things in your life that could have
been if I had been this person this whole time.
But it's a deception because what ended up happening
was those seeds that had been planted were dormant
and God accelerated them to the point. I think
Moses in Psalm 90 talks about, like basically
like something along the lines of like the years
of like restoring the years of waste. Yep. I
can't even remember exact phrasing, but it was
like that for us. Suddenly our lives just accelerated
in so many ways that for one of them being, we
now help with revive kids that came like six
months later. we've always wanted to do something
like that yeah it was like that thing was locked
up and could not be open until this happened
yeah and when it did it came and like we just
had other things and friendships and connections
with people that were like man we've wanted this
for so long and suddenly we're having it yeah
and so i will say when that lie of the deception
of the time and it tries to put that shame and
heaviness on you god will accelerate those years
back to you amen and i didn't obviously know
that at the time, but now we do. Yeah. But one
of the things that I will forever be blown away
by with Shannae is that she came to me. She came
to me and looked at me. I can't remember if it
was Saturday or that Friday. It must've been
Saturday. So now that Friday, you know, we had
sex that night, different things that we've had
these conversations. She came on Saturday and
looked at me and connected with me in a way of.
she's going through all this crisis from what
i did and she looked at me and she was like i
feel sorry for you that you were dealing with
this from the age you were 12 and like emotionally
being locked up what has been stolen from you
and i remember being just blown away by that
yeah By her coming to me so compassionate in
that moment. Obviously not right away. It started
out with punches, right? Yeah. But after three
days coming to me with such compassion and she
led me to the root cause. Okay. And through conversations
and being 100 % open and honest with each other,
we discovered the root cause was an image. I
had an image to try to present to the world.
And when you're false in any way, it leads to
other false things getting in. And pornography
is a false thing. Come on. It's not real. It
doesn't give you anything. It pretends to give
you things, right? It doesn't give you anything.
And it can only live in falseness. It can only
live in dark. That's the only reason it's there
is because you have something hidden in your
life, probably something else. It's not alone.
It's not there by itself. And it was an image
that I had learned to present because of a documentary
I'd been in, because of the church I was in and
who I was at that church and real things from
God that I had experienced that now I had to
almost pretend to be somebody I wasn't. But I
thought I was, like I mentioned before, I was
trying to live up to an identity I felt I had
to be rather than just be real. Just be honest,
be real. I couldn't, and I couldn't. And so for
so long, that image thing was there. And it was
like, oh my God, that's what it is. That's why
I couldn't tell people I had an image. That's
why I could deceive myself that it was there
or not there. I had an image that I lived. I
lived more that image than my real self. And
it was just... you helped lead me to that. And
when it was like, we discovered that root, my
God, I did everything in my power to attack that
thing. Right. And be as real and open about everything
as possible. Yeah. And she led me to that through
her compassion for me in that moment, which is
just, I will never forget that. And we, I don't
want to say we healed quickly because it was
very hard, difficult conversations, probably
for six, seven, eight months. Sure. And they
became less frequent over that time. But this
is not something that just healed over a weekend
and now we're good. We had deep, meaningful,
hurtful at times. Painful, I should say. Maybe
not hurtful, but painful conversations. Hard
ones. Two, three hours into the night for weeks,
months after this. So not saying like, oh, blah,
blah, blah. We're just over it now. It was a
process. But you... Being able to do that to
me, love on me, have compassion in that moment,
accelerated the healing. And has set us apart
because then we knew of somebody else, a similar
thing had happened to them. Now, this person's
husband did not tell them. They found out. Okay.
Right. And just kind of... That didn't happen.
Some of those dynamics didn't happen and it took
a lot longer. A lot longer to heal. And so for
us, I just am just always blown away by the woman
who saw me at my very worst and chose to love
me. I'll never forget that. And I honor you for
that. I'll hop in and I'll ask. Because there
was something that... We talked a little bit
about it, Dean'na and I did. After y 'all shared
with us the first time a few months ago, you
had been on this journey for about a year then.
For lack of a better word, it was fun to see
you, Levi, and the freedom and all that you had.
And then we would look at Shannae on the couch
sitting next to you, and it's like, she's still
pissed. Yeah. She's over it, but she's not quite
over it. Yeah. So I almost asked you upstairs,
and I'm like, no, I'm going to ask on the podcast
to put you on the spot. But we can edit this
out if you really don't. But I am going to put
you on the spot. How are you in this journey?
Because we know Levi's jumping up and down and
shouting from the rooftops how free he is. Yeah.
And we know you guys are solid as a couple, and
we're not worried about that. But how are you
on this journey? I mean, I'm definitely, like,
you say, like, I'm still pissed. And I think
what that is is I'm so pissed that this is an
issue for so many people. Okay. That's good.
Because, like, why is this happening? Yeah. Why
is this happening? Yeah. Okay. And then why do
we feel like we can't talk about it? You know,
why did it take? seven years for the truth to
come out yeah so i'm like i'm i'm just angry
for people that are dealing with this i'm angry
for wives who don't know what's going on and
they think that there's something wrong with
them yeah because i know what that feels like
right and i'm still like i still have moments
you know because as women our our bodies are
constantly changing yes and i'm like you know
well i don't really like how i look so Why would
my husband be attracted to me? So that's still
stuff that I am having to fight through and work
on. But I'm also just like, what can we do? As
a body. As a body of Christ. Literally as believers.
Because, not to cut you off, but you said that
for seven years, but you've been dealing with
this since you were 12. So give me some math.
How long has that been? Oh, how old am I now?
32. 32. I told you roughly two years ago. So
it would have been about 18, 19 years. So 18,
19 years. And you've been in church all your
life. Yes. OK. Not throwing anybody under a bus.
Right. But the fact that the church as a whole.
Right. I mean, this is where Luke and I will
talk about the things that. Right. Like, why
are we not having these conversations? Why are
we not having conversations about masturbation
and pornography? And why are we not having conversations
about premarital sex and what that actually does
to your soul? Why are we not having these kind
of conversations? Because these things are in
the Word of God. It is in the Word of God. So
it's infuriating, and I see why you're pissed.
Because this is what's gotten our train to where
we're like, I want to have these hard conversations.
God has designed our bodies. He's the one that
created all of these things. Why are we being
shamed about it? Why are we, why are we not talking
about, Hey, you can have good sex while you're
married. You can, it's, it's even better if you
do X, Y, Z, because this is how it's designed,
right? Like these things and an understanding
the repercussions, just the mental work. that
things reprogram with pornography and masturbation,
your brain will start rewiring itself. And people
don't even realize that scientific, the greatest
scientist of all times, God, creator of the universe,
is the one that designed that. So why are we
not listening to the things? We absolutely understand
that prayer works, deliverance, all the things.
But we also know... I think that that's where
we're having to get into the space, the discipleship,
have the conversations. Like, yes, prayer, but
now let's talk about it. Let's rework. Let's
take the thoughts captive. Stop pushing it to
the side. No, I'm pissed. This is not okay. You
don't understand what this is doing to me. I'm
absolutely consumed. Whether it's alcohol or
drugs. We talk about all the other things. Why
are we not having this conversation? Because
this is the thing that defiles the whole body.
All of it. And then we started discovering other
people that were close to us. And it was like,
oh my God. this has to be talked about how sooner
could maybe we have found freedom or whatever
like we could go into some of those variables
but it's more so just like this is real it's
real life it needs to be dealt with yes and yeah
we feel because we're experiencing so much freedom
we feel a sense of like what can we do i love
that because there's a lot of practical things
too yes you know it's like okay because like
that like i i am a firm believer that everything
has a root Yes. So you have to find out what
the root is, no matter what it is that you're
dealing with. OK, find the root. We've got to
figure that out. But then with him, it's like,
OK, so what sort of things were you having that
were like triggering this? Like, OK, I'm going
to go do this. So it's good because it would
it was like, you know. I don't know how detailed
I really want to be, but, like, once a week,
once every couple weeks, typically. And, like,
I could feel it coming and hated it. Yeah. I
could sense days before. And so we made changes
based on some of those things and just took off.
you know, 10 o 'clock, my phone would not allow
me to get online or whatever. And like stuff
like that. That was so like practical. That's
good. Setting a boundary on your phone. Like,
okay, this thing is sort of triggering it. So
let's change that up. Yes. Let's make sure you're
not encountering that. Like, yes. Okay. But then
another thing is like, I'm here to help you and
support you, but I don't want to be your accountability
partner. That's good. So you, you need to find
somebody. Right. And like, Yeah, I'll make sure
that you're checking in with them and talking
to them. But, like, I'm not going to do that
for you. Yeah. You know? And then even, like,
I said, listen, I love my ring, but you're getting
me a new one. We are, like, starting over. You're
getting me a new ring. Yeah. And he was like,
yeah, that's a great idea. Like, I want to get
a new one, too. Nice. So we did. For Christmas
that year, we got new wedding rings. I love that.
But it was just. That next thing, that like symbol
of, hey, we're starting over. We're starting
fresh. This is going to be better than the last
seven years. Yeah. So I did look up some stats
for pornography, not just in the world, but also
in the church. So I'll go through these pretty
quick or try to go through these somewhat quick.
Over 40 million Americans are regular visitors
to porn sites. The average visit lasts 6 minutes
29 seconds. There are around 42 million porn
websites, which total around 370 million pages
of porn. The porn industry's annual revenue is
more than the NFL, NBA, and MLB combined. It
is also more than the combined revenues of ABC,
CBS, and NBC. 47 % of families in the United
States reported that pornography is a problem
in their home. Pornography use increases the
marital infidelity rate by more than 300%. Dang.
11 is the average age that a child is first exposed
to porn. and 94 % of children will see porn by
the age of 14. 56 % of American divorces involve
one party having an obsessive interest in pornographic
websites. 70 % of Christian youth pastors report
that they have had at least one teen come to
them for help in dealing with pornography in
the past 12 months. You said 70? 70 % of Christian
youth pastors, yep. And this was, I think, a
year ago, this website, the stats. 68 % of church
-going men and over 50 % of pastors view porn
on a regular basis. Of young Christian adults
18 to 24 years old, 76 % actively search for
porn. 59 % of pastors said that married men seek
their help for porn use. 33 % of women aged 25
and under search for porn at least once per month.
Only 13 % of self -identified Christian women
can say they never watched porn. 87 % of Christian
women have. Dang. 55 % of married men and 25
% of married women say they watch porn at least
once per month. 57 % of pastors say porn addiction
is the most damaging issue in their congregation
and 69 % say porn has adversely impacted the
church. And then one of the more sad, only 7
% of pastors say their church has a program to
help people struggling with pornography. Yeah.
Like all four of us are even sparks. We're all
just dumbfounded. Yeah. Yeah. But like at the
same time, that doesn't even surprise us. No.
Like I'm over here in tears because I'm thinking
11, 11 years old. Yeah. It's unfair. Because
I... I think I was maybe either fourth or sixth
grade was the first time I ever encountered it.
Yeah. And it was a friend's dad's stash. Yep.
And then people wonder why our generation is
like, oh, you're so strict with your kids. No,
I'm trying to save their life. You're trying
to save their life. Call me strict, but I am
trying to protect them from what I went through.
Yes. Yes. Especially with the ease of access.
Yes. I mean. 370 million pages, web pages. That's
insane. That's more than the population of the
US. That is insane. That is insane. That's crazy.
Yeah. I mean, and then we're not even going to
go into the whole, because that's a whole other
can of worms, but I follow a page. It's people
are not property. And it's talking about trafficking.
And it's talking about abuse. Well, and it's
also, like you mentioned earlier, it's not talking
about the romance novels and the soft core stuff.
The soft core. I mean, like Victoria's Secret.
Tori, she shut everything down for Dustin. He
doesn't get even magazines, like anything, right?
Like, it's saving. We go to the gym, or we used
to be in the gym a lot, and it's like bouncing
your eyes in a gym. Right. Because you're having
to... Dear God. Okay. Can't... Okay. We actually...
We had to quit a gym because a vast majority
of the females were like teenagers and 20 -somethings
and they would wear just a sports bra and tiny,
tiny shorts. That was it. I'm like, babe, I can't.
We're done. I'm like, I can't. I can't do this.
And having that honesty is so important. So important.
Because I'm going to speak to the women. Shannae,
you and I get to speak to the women on this one,
okay? Because... You want your husband honest
with you. Okay. Because sometimes it's, it's
that lie of if I say something to my wife, she's
not going to think that I think she's attractive.
Oh, you're looking at other women. I need you
to shut up. Right. Right. Shut up. He is trying
to tell you something. He is trying to say, Hey
babe. Hey, hi. Red flag. Like I need freaking
help right now. And we need to love them enough
to say, absolutely. What do you need from me?
What do you need from me? I will block you out
of this situation. Yep, here, I'm taking you
by the hand. Here we go. Because they do that
for us, right? Like if we said, they should be.
They should be. I'm on the phone with Luke on
my way today. I told you guys, it's been a day,
right? No big deal. But I'm like, just give me
five minutes. Hey, baby, you got five minutes?
You know? Yeah. Right? Like, what can I do? Nothing.
I just need you to hear me and just remind me
I'm okay. Right. Remind me I'm okay. Is there
anything that you... Babe, I'm just... I'm tired,
babe. I know you're tired. Like, having these
real conversations of, I am not... Levi, you're
saying it. I am not as strong as I portray myself
to be. Right. Like, I have got six foot three
over here. Two hundred and a... Amazingness.
$2 .65. $2 .65 of the most amazingness of stuff.
Yeah. And, baby, okay? Can you just hold me?
Right. It's heavy out there. And we do not need
to be helping in that pressure with our husbands.
Right. So good. We need to be the place that
is safe where they can put their guard down and
say, I am not okay. yeah as women though we expect
like well my husband just needs to bear the brunt
of everything and handle it he's the knight in
shining armor yes yeah that's that's not realistic
he's a human yeah he is but as wives and women
we can be really terrible at shutting our husbands
down yep You know, like, well, you're the husband,
deal with it. Yeah, suck it up. No, I much prefer
when my husband can come to me and say, hey,
I'm really struggling with this. Yeah. I prefer
that. I don't need him to be everything for me.
I just need him to be honest and open and real
with me. And that shifted our marriage and made
it stronger. Yeah. For sure. Because does it
not? Like, literally, when we do that for them,
that's like King Kong on cocaine, isn't it, baby?
Yeah, it is. Like, all of a sudden, it's just
like, I got you. I'm not going anywhere. We're
going to battle this thing together. Oh, I will
take that down. I will spider monkey that thing.
And we will bring it down. And every stronghold
that tries to come up against, it will not stand.
It's not going to come to our house. Yeah. So
like real life example, what did you do with
that? How was it for you when I sent you that
text the other day from work? You remember what
I'm talking about? No, remind me. I had turned
on a movie. That's good, I guess. Maybe that
you don't even remember. That's only like two,
three weeks ago. I turned on a movie. She was
going to sleep. or you were falling asleep while
I was watching it. I have an interest in sci
-fi sometimes. She doesn't care, so I'm going
to watch it. She's going to fall asleep. It's
fine. Something else had kind of popped up, and
it was just the words. There's no image or anything
like that. As I was searching for this thing
I was going for, and I clicked on it, and things
like that will come up for 100 % sure. You're
going to have struggles even after you tell your
wife. typically i could just push it to this
like no leave me alone yeah for some reason the
next day while i was at work it i could not get
that word off my mind and it was like get on
your phone go to that site watch that thing get
on your phone go to that site watch that thing
whatever you know and it was driving me nuts
and like again typically i could just be like
stop go away and this time i was like i'm not
so i text you and i said i am having this thought
about this show in watching this thing. I want
to tell you that because I think right now I
just need to be honest with you on this to make
this thing go away. It was like, hey, tell her.
And so I did. And there could be a fear of like,
gosh, I'm going to just set off alarm bells in
her and she's going to be asking me for the next
three weeks. But I knew because of where we've
been and how honest we've been on different things,
you would not respond like that. No, because
I'd rather know. I would rather know. And then,
yeah, what can we do to help you and to get you
past that? Yeah. She ended up being, she's like,
wait, what was it? And she texted me back. She's
like, that is not about anything you're thinking
about right now. See, now I'm so curious. I was
like, no, actually, that's like. That has nothing
to do with that, actually. It's fine, but I'm
glad you told me. I remember what it was. Because
then, too, it's just that little thought of curiosity
just poking at him, poking at him, poking at
him. It would not leave me alone. And typically
I could. I think maybe it was just something
where God was like, hey, tell her and you'll
be free. And so it was just keeping that open.
This is a year and a half later. It's almost
like those weird obedience checks. I'm going
to have you do this just to double check you're
still obedient. Because the freedom came out
of honesty. The truth will set you free is a
whole different meaning for me now. Seriously.
I tried everything. And the truth set me free
when I was finally 100 % truthful with you. And
so in that one, it just was that way. I just
had to tell her. And, you know, you have other
guys in your life, too, that, like, I'll call
you kind of thing. So those are good things to
have, too. But that one was Tell Shannae. And,
yeah, it was Adult Swim. Oh. Yeah. It was just
a black screen that said Adult Swim. She's like,
it's a channel, babe. I'm sure there's something
inappropriate on there, but it's not, like, what
you're thinking. For some reason, that just,
like, rang in my mind, and I could not get it
off. And it was like, go there, go there, go
there. And I'm like, I don't know. don't even
want to you know and so but telling her and it
just from there it just went away it just disappeared
yeah so anyway but it's like that you know he
went through this process and one thing Dustin
had told him early on was like you need to become
so honest that you're honest to a fault yeah
and it's like that's something he really took
on yeah and he needed to do that because he had
spent so long living in a cloud yeah where he
couldn't be honest and he didn't know that he
couldn't be honest and so yeah something like
that it's like yeah i can laugh about it because
i'm like okay that's not that's not anything
but like i'm glad you told me because that thing's
been bugging you you need to tell me yeah so
it's just good real life example but yeah um
is there anything else you guys want to bring
to the table Before we wrap up. Because you guys
have been incredibly transparent. I'm very proud
of you guys. Very proud of you guys. Not that
you need to hear it out of boy, out of girl from
me and Luke, but genuinely, thank you guys. Number
one, for entrusting us to be here. But number
two, for not being scared to fight that thing.
And knowing that it's not just you. Like, I think
that that's what fuels, like, you're not the
only ones. No, I mean, listen to the statistics.
That is insane. You think, well, we can't tell
anybody because nobody else is doing it. Everybody's
dealing with it. Yeah. Everybody's dealing with
it. And nobody's talking about it. That's why
it's a problem. 7 % of churches have a plan to
deal with it. That's, that's devastating. That
is devastating. Yes, I agree. you said in the
car on the way over here we were talking to and
you said i knew one person i could call i yeah
i mean like i had my i had my girls you know
but it was like even then our relationship with
our friends like these are our people yeah yeah
y 'all are like y 'all are tight yeah and it's
like but even then before this it was like we
could only go so far like these are my siblings
yeah you know yeah like we just can't go any
farther than this yeah but it's like now it's
like yeah when shit's hitting the fan like these
are the people we're going to right it opened
up a whole new world for us and our friends too
yes because we all started getting open and honest
in their relationship tell me what you're doing
to your life yeah but yeah like but outside of
that i'm like with each other i only know one
person on this planet who has been through this
in their marriage that i can go to and that's
a problem yeah i'm glad i'm very thankful and
i'm glad that i could go to tori yeah but i'm
like yeah why is there only one person that i
know of that i can talk to about this right yeah
we gotta have more gotta have more conversations
yeah being open and honest yeah yeah and you
know i'm not here to make light of what happened
and what i did to my family That really did happen.
It really did devastate and hurt things. And
just because we're in a really good place now,
I'm not trying to present an image that shows
me in such a way or we're trying to twist the
story to show me in such a way. I don't want
that anymore, ever. I really did that to my family.
And it was awful. And now we're on the other
side and freedom. And I'm really grateful that
I came to you about it and not just that we're
here now because you found out. Right. Well,
because I specifically, I asked God, I said,
I was like, God, what the hell? Yeah. Like this
has been going on in my house when I have been
in the house. Like, yeah. Yeah. Why? Why did
I, why did I not know? Why did I not find out?
And, and God was just straight up like. Because
if you had found out without him telling you,
you would not be where you are. Like the Lord
was protecting me from finding him doing that.
Because he needed to be the one to come to me
and be honest about it so that we could get through
it. And it's like, yeah, I mean, again, seven
years and not one time did I walk in on it or
have any clue that anything was happening. But
it was the Lord shielding me from it. Yeah. And
it's like, okay, well, that really sucked, but
I understand it. Because I do think, had I just
found out on my own, this would be a whole different
situation. Yeah. I'll also say I appreciate you
two illustrating that it wasn't an overnight
or even within a week or a month process. That
it was a process. Because I know we talk about,
you know, like exposing things and, you know,
just say it out, you know, say it out loud. You
know, sunlight is the greatest disinfectant.
You know, and oftentimes it's just like with
healing. It's like, well, we prayed for healing.
Why aren't I healed immediately? You know, and
it's like, it's as awesome as it is to hear those
immediate stories and the now moments. It's like,
it's also very good and reassuring to hear these,
the process. Yeah. You know, that. Yes, it was
a process. It was a struggle. It was climbing
over obstacles and fighting this through. But
every day we step forward. Every day we step
together forward through this. So I appreciate
that as well, that you guys are showing that
it wasn't just we had a conversation. I showed
my phone and now, oh, look, now we're happy and
good and free. Because you and I talk about habits
even being broken. Like it becomes a habit. And
so many times it's that stronghold. Yes, that
stronghold lifts and all of the things happen.
But now you have to get yourself out of the habit.
And it's reframing those boundaries, like you
were talking about, Shannae. And then it's also
just discipline. One of Luke's favorite things
is... Self -control is one of the fruits of the
Spirit. And it's like a lot of people don't want
to talk about the discipline behind walking this
with God. It's part of discipline is, yes, I
am my brother's keeper or my husband's, my wife's,
right? It's I get to walk with these people.
I get to keep them. Not because I'm trying to
push them down and trying to, because I want
to elevate them and I want to make them better.
Like we have this, the enemy has got it so twisted.
That you have to, in order to be a strong Christian,
you have to be a perfect Christian. No, no, you
don't. What makes you a strong Christian is you
keep laying it to the feet of Jesus. Absolutely.
And you keep going back and you keep going back
and you keep going back. Absolutely. Yeah. Simple
God, simple church. Just something that's just
been resonating inside of me lately. Just like,
just experience him for who he is, how he is.
And he's so gracious. to talk to you in the way
that you can hear him. Amen. And to, to meet
you in the way that you can meet with him. Like
he's not making it hard. Before my relationship
with God was difficult because I had to accomplish
something to have one with him. You know, that's
because I had this image, right? And now it's
just like, no, I'm able to just meet him because
he's real. It's good. Like, and I'm real and
I connect, he connects with me, you know, it's
just, the way it is, one of my favorite things
to say is there's no way I'm a better father
than he is. Right. Yes. Very good at being a
father and so willing and able to connect, you
know, even. And so I think our main goal for
today really was just the honesty because that's
what set us free. The truth set us free. Yep.
And to reinforce that for anybody who's listening,
if there's something there, a relationship at
work you shouldn't have, emotional relationship,
right? Like something, maybe you do just struggle
looking here and there. Maybe you don't go to
a website, but you scroll through Instagram on
things you shouldn't or whatever. Come on, sir.
That was somebody we knew. And, you know, another
person, the emotional relationships thing. So,
like, other things like that. If there is something,
God is hitting you on it right now, or it just
keeps coming to your mind as we're talking, the
truth will set you free. You've got to talk to
your spouse about it. And I would encourage you
to do that. Amen. And find accountability with
people you trust to get yourself to do that.
Yes. Or even if you're not married. Like, if
you want to be married, figure this out now.
Yes. So you don't. That's good. ruined somebody
else's life yeah you know like this is we know
people who are engaged and i'm like have you
laid everything out yeah have you just vomited
all of it because if you haven't and you're trying
to oh it's fine i don't we don't need to go no
you need to go there no once we're married it
won't come up ever again yeah actually it becomes
magnified figure this out before you are married
and my god before you have kids yeah yeah because
then you have to think about them yeah yeah yeah
you know i don't want to say if we didn't have
kids like oh we wouldn't be together but like
in that moment the kids were truly the thing
that kept it together gotcha yeah no no that's
real that's my only reason was i have kids yeah
so i can't I can't walk away from this because
of them. What is that going to do to their life?
I think we would have come back around, but I
definitely wouldn't have been in the house. But
it probably would have been a much longer process
of me dealing with the rage and the anger and
the hurt. Not to say, I definitely felt all of
it, went through all of it. I think it would
have been prolonged. We even had some people
around us who knew what was going on and some
of the things that had been said from you to
me and were like, oh, she shouldn't have said
that. And I said, yes, she should have. She is
allowed to say anything she wants. Or, well,
you shouldn't have put your hands on him. Well,
that one I did say to you. In hindsight, I probably
shouldn't have. Don't necessarily regret that.
No, I hear you. I'm not going to condone, like,
hey, go beat the crap out of your husband. Yeah.
But, like, in that moment. Understood. Yeah.
I didn't know what else to do. Yeah. And I did
apologize for that. We worked through that, too.
She's not, like, hitting me in the pants. She's
not hitting me in the face. It was here on my
shoulder where she knew it wouldn't, like, damage
me. The thing is, is he said, I'm not mad at
you for that. You know? So, like. Even from him,
he wasn't like, yeah, you shouldn't have done
that. He was like, I just was giving you the
space to feel what you felt and to react how
you felt you needed to. He's told guys that you
don't get to tell your wife how she should react.
If you're going to tell her this, you need to
give her the space to feel what she's going to
feel and say what she's going to say. Yeah, I
did not allow the space for you to be real before.
No. Because I wasn't. Yeah. But I didn't recognize
that. Yeah. I had a religious thing on me or
whatever, an image thing. And so when she was
real at times, I'm like, all right, well, yeah,
but we don't, come on, we need to get over that,
blah, blah. Whereas now it's like, hey, I get
why you're frustrated. Yeah. I'm there with you.
That's good. That's new for us, you know? Yeah,
that's good. So anyway, we're. Yeah. I love that.
We can go on and on and on, but. Yeah. Yeah,
thank you guys, too, for opening this up for
us. We were looking for, like, a way, a place
to be real and honest. Yeah. And after a while,
you know, this isn't like something that happened
to us three months ago, right? After a while,
when we've worked through things and really been
walking in freedom, we were like, we got to do
something for people as much as we can with what
we have, just our testimony. You know, I'm not
here to say, I'm amazing at this now. No, like,
I done messed up, and we've worked through that
mess. And are still working through it. I know
how to struggle and keep moving forward. Yeah,
exactly. Good for you, right? And so, yeah, we
wanted to just, I want to say thank you for opening
up this for us and working with us on this. This
has been, this is really important to us. That's
good. So if we have anybody out there, any listeners
that are struggling in this boat. Need help.
Need help. Have questions. I'm going to encourage
you guys to reach out. Yes. Reach out to us.
Reach out to the O 'Briens. Is that cool? If
you don't know how to get a hold of them, get
a hold of us, and we will get you in contact
with them. We'll connect you. Because that's
what this is about. And there's no, like, we've
walked this. I'm not going to be shocked if someone
comes to me. I'm not going to be like, oh, my
God. No, this is real life. And Levi's not going
to shame somebody and say, hey, I'm dealing with
this. Ooh, that's bad. You're supposed to be
a Christian. Something's wrong with you. No,
we have walked this out. And it's still something
we talk about. Because it's like, yeah, we've
got to make sure that we're still aware of what's
going on. making sure that he's still being honest,
that I'm being honest about things. There's no
shame and there's no judgment. Yeah. Because
the enemy, he deems you as the weapon that you
are. You are a weapon at this point. He has been
found out. You are a weapon. And I'm proud of
you guys. Thank you. Genuinely. There's nothing
else to say. I'm proud of you guys. Thanks for
bringing this into this space with us. Yes. Yeah.
Thanks for having us. Yeah. All right, guys.
That was a long one. That was a good one. But
it was good. Yeah. Anything else, babe? I think
that everything has been said today. Happy Easter.
Happy Easter. Let's go eat. Let's go eat like
chocolate and ham and all the things. Yes. Resurrection
life. Yes. That's genuinely what this is about.
It's good. It's resurrection life. And you keep
saying it, Levi. It's like the freedom, the freedom,
the freedom. He who the Son has set free is free
indeed. Yes. Okay? So it's bringing it to the
light and allowing him to resurrect you out of
the dark. Yeah. Yes. You guys get to come alive
again. Yeah. That's good. All right, guys. Have
the best week. Enjoy the journey.