Hello and welcome to another episode of Upfront and Undivided with Luke and Dean'na.
Hi babe.
Hey babe.
How's it going?
It's good.
How are you?
I'm good.
We got people in here with us.
We do have people in with us.
It's sketchy.
We got sketchy people in here with us.
It is what it is.
You know, no they're good people.
We like these people.
Yes.
We would be happy to have people in here with us if we didn't like these people.
That is very true.
We've got John and Tracy Flager.
Yes.
Hey.
Hi y'all.
Hey.
Y'all are welcome to say hello now.
Yeah.
We can talk now.
You may speak freely.
Good to.
It is.
It's hard, isn't it?
Because it's like you don't hear the music.
You don't hear anything on.
Listen.
You're like, yeah, are we talking now?
What are we doing?
Yeah, now we get it.
How are you guys?
We're good.
Yeah.
Busy but good.
So, do you want to do a little introduction of our sweet friends?
Yeah.
So, I mean, y'all are married.
Y'all are parents.
You've both been in ministry.
You've both worked out of ministry and in ministry.
You know, I'm still, there's part of me that still like wraps my head around the like, your
pastors but also your working.
I mean, I know you're not pastors right now but I know in the past you guys have done
a lot of.
You guys have had a lot of.
You guys have had your hands on a lot of stuff and you put on different shoes and different
hats all at the same time.
And they become our friends.
They are our dear, dear friends.
Yeah.
They come and live with us on the weekends periodically just to kind of hang out and
do stuff and be, which that in itself has been kind of fun.
So, it's like, because we didn't know y'all from anybody.
Hey, do you have a space for this family to come because you guys literally drive an hour
to get to church just to be in the presence of God and to be with people.
And it's like, and you guys literally will put the money in to do the things to go to
places but it's like, we've got a spare space.
Y'all come in with your beautiful teenage daughter, teenage daughter.
Now she's a teenager.
Jesus.
I think that's actually what got you and I talking because you're like looking at me
going, tell me things.
This is new territory.
I have no idea what is coming with teenage years.
I know what it was like when I was a teenager.
Yeah.
But I don't know what it was like to raise a teenager.
Completely different.
Completely different situation.
And then we had John, you had John on the Equipped Man on your last, was it your last
interview?
Yeah.
My last episode.
That was powerful.
That was really, really good.
You guys had a good.
It was an honor.
So, Tracy is the better half of John.
Yes.
I appreciate that.
And you guys just.
She's the more polished version.
She, you know, she's pretty.
It helps that she's pretty.
Sorry, John.
Just fine.
It's good, man.
It's fine.
Glad to know she's pretty.
But you guys just celebrated an anniversary.
What number?
18.
Congratulations.
We've been together.
We've been married 18 together, 20 in November.
So not long enough.
He says not long enough.
Aw.
He was.
I like that answer.
Yeah.
He was taught a long ago, long ago by a pastor mentor that, you know, when someone asks you
how long you've been married, you just say not long enough.
Yeah.
I like that.
You keep you out of trouble.
Well, it keeps you out of trouble.
But all of a sudden I was thinking, but it also, it reminds you that you still have space
to grow.
Exactly.
And you get to, you get to continue to explore and discover and rediscover and all of the
things with this person.
Absolutely.
I love that.
Aw.
That's sweet.
Well, we have, we have a topic.
What's your topic?
What are you wanting to talk about?
Why did we bring this amazing couple?
I mean, part of it was because John came up to me last weekend and say, Hey, we want to
talk on your podcast.
So this is your fault, John.
It is John's fault.
So great.
But we want, you know, again, we want to talk about, I know one of the things I wanted to
talk about when we were discussing whether or not, yes, do we want to want them on our
podcast because, you know, sometimes we'll be picky because we don't want anybody.
Because we believe you guys bring a weightiness with you.
And we kind of wanted to talk about some of the things that you've gone through in ministry
as a couple.
And you know, I know, I know on In the Real, they had an episode where they talked about
church hurt.
And I kind of wanted to part of part of our conversation was I kind of wanted to talk
to you guys about that.
And how do you come out still strong, still together, still loving God after the flames
that you guys have walked through?
Well, it's a very good question.
I think first off, you need to understand that church in itself is going to hurt you
because church in itself is just a building.
It's just a bunch of people to make up a body and in that body, there's people that are
not always going to have the same focus nor the same perspective of love and compassion
as you have or as myself.
But in the same concept of that, you have to understand that, you know, we are taught
to be an example, be an example of those that have gone before us.
You know, the disciples, all those that have suffered and, you know, went through great
things.
And, you know, we found that God wasn't the one hurting us.
It wasn't, you know, he wasn't bringing it.
It wasn't like it was an attack or anything like that.
But just misconception, you know, misunderstanding is as I've often I make light of it now, you
know, people not wanting the truth necessarily.
Yeah.
Can you just make me feel good?
But we've always come out on top just basically because we made it up in our minds or, you
know, certainly and I've maybe I've taught this in my family more than anything is, you
know, we're not going to be what everybody else wants us to be.
Yeah.
What the Bible's called us to be and be who God's laid out for us.
Yeah.
And sometimes that means you're going to walk in with tears and walk with those that are
your enemies just as often as not.
But so yeah, it's it's tough church church church is definitely a real thing.
And I think it's across the board.
Everybody is experiencing it in some way or some fashion.
Yeah.
And a lot of times, too, when you do get hurt by church members or church in general, a
lot of times you have to dig deeper and look at the bigger picture and what hurt are they
going through?
You know, obviously, they're coming from a place where they have possibly been hurt.
And so they don't know how to respond to it or they don't know how to try to come the
word come up with the word that I'm wanting.
Deal with it or, you know, find a way to get through their own hurt.
Yeah.
So the only way that they know how to express their hurt is unfortunately, unintentionally
or even intentionally hurting someone else, because maybe they want to feel they want
you to feel what they're feeling.
Yeah.
And, you know, so a lot of times I've had to learn the hard way that, you know, it could
be just that they're hurting and they don't know how to get over the hurt.
Yeah.
It's like they don't know how to process.
Yeah.
That's the word I was looking for.
Process.
Yeah.
And it is.
I feel and I don't know quite how to handle it and process it and express it.
So it's like, I'm going to now project it on you.
Yeah.
So well, immediately what came to my mind when you were saying it was it almost becomes
their identity, right?
The hurt becomes your identity.
And when you don't know who you are and whose you are, or when you lose sight of that perspective
of your life, of ultimately the one that is in charge, then that the offense or the bitter
root or the stuff that starts becoming the identity.
And you start taking that on as opposed to what does God want to do?
Or how does this, you know, kind of feeding, feeding that wound as opposed to asking God
to completely expose it, clean it out, which that hurts, right?
Like that in itself, that can be a process, but allowing him to come into that space with
you and say, OK, I need you.
Let's let's heal this.
Let's fix this.
But yeah, I can see where that that's gross.
It's hurt.
That's hard.
It's heartbreaking.
It is, to be honest.
It's heartbreaking.
And, you know, things that to get to help me with that is I've surrounded myself with
individuals like you, Dina and Luke that I can come to with no judgment.
And you know, if I need to be whipped back in shape, you're going to whip me back in
shape and say lovingly, lovingly say, girl, get over it.
Yeah.
Now, what are we going to do?
Yeah.
And, you know, I feel that with church hurt a lot of times, you just got to find the right
people to surround yourself with.
Yeah.
To help with that.
It is.
And if you want to surround yourself with people that acknowledge, OK, yeah, man, I'm
sorry.
I've learned that forgiveness saying I'm sorry is huge in the kingdom of God.
And it doesn't seem to be something that unfortunately doesn't get it doesn't get said as often as
you would think it needs to.
I'd say it's with that, though, I think it's bigger than the church.
I agree.
Because I mean, as much as that's become culture, it is it is culture because, you know, they
say like two of the things that are hardest for people to say is I'm sorry and I was wrong.
You know, and even though how many how many times, John, you've got the Bible memorized
more than I.
How many times does the Bible talk about forgiveness?
Well, a lot.
You know, and yes, 70 times seven.
So you're never getting past it.
Right.
You know, and yet that's that is as as people as humans as flawed beings.
Yeah.
And that's that is one of the hardest things that we could say.
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah.
So you, Luke, we're starting to talk.
And this is one of the things that really got us talking today.
And you were talking about the arsenal of God.
And I know that probably some of our listeners are going to be like, OK, guys, what does
this have to do with anything?
And it's like this kind of has everything to do with everything.
Right now, what we're seeing, we believe what we're seeing.
You and I personally and just kind of corporately around us is there seems to be such an onslaught
and you guys could probably testify on marriages and the family unit.
And well, first off, let me let's back up and let me explain.
Yeah.
Kind of my theory of or my vision rather of the arsenal is and this this hit me years
ago when I was talking to a Christian and it's like, you know, God has empowered us
to have full access to his arsenal.
And it's like in my mind, again, as military warrior minded, it's like first couple rows,
you step in and there's like the sticks, there's the slings.
And then the further back you go, the weapons just get more and more powerful, you know,
and at the back is like the nukes and better.
And it's like, I feel like there are so many Christians, they step into the first couple
rows and it's like, well, this was good enough for David or it's a weapon of God, so therefore
it's good enough.
Right.
And then it's like today I had the realization of the enemy has it has the same amount in
his arsenal that God has in his.
And it's like, you know, if he's using all these tools, all these weapons, and he's not
holding back and he's, you know, and again, how many times does the Bible say weapons
formed against us?
The enemy is coming.
The enemy is prowling.
Here's what's going to happen.
You know, God's like details.
The enemy will come at you.
Yeah, I think a big thing and I don't want to jump in, but I think we need to understand
that, you know, people think, well, this is some physical thing.
This is like some flaming arrow is going to pop my tire.
You know, the enemy is coming with the word, but he's coming with the word twisted.
Yes, coming with the word deformed.
He's coming with the same scriptures that are being preached, but he's bringing that
weapon that God's given to you to take an authority and control of the situation.
And he's bringing it just twisted just enough, just enough so you can get off course.
You can end up here in left field somewhere.
And that's the thing.
So he's going to come with something that's recognizable.
It's going to be big.
Oh, yeah.
I'm going to I'm going to recognize him because he's going to be this three headed cyclops
and I'm going to know exactly who he is going to be a semi driving through my house.
Yeah, exactly.
No, he's he's coming as your TV preacher.
He's coming as your pastor that's saying it's OK now to to have multiple wives.
He's coming as that man that's saying it's OK to live in sin.
He's coming as that woman that's demon that it's all right to be an adulterer.
He's coming.
Yeah.
He's coming as a word and he's saying it's OK.
Right.
And he's he's coming as that that that other still small voice, that intrusive thought
that says, did God really say, yeah, are you sure that's in the Bible?
Yeah.
Just enough to trip you up and put that hook of you questioning your loyalty.
Right.
And that's enough to trip us.
Or if something happens and you get that church hurt or you get hurt in general, not just
the church, but something in your life, which I can personally and I'm in that season where
I've faced rejection.
Yeah.
It's like, see, you're not good enough.
See, that thought was right.
See, see, why are you doing this?
You don't know what you're doing.
Right.
That still small voice can be anything.
See, they treated you like that.
See, God's not really all good.
Yeah.
Just yucky, just yucky.
Yeah.
But I know that one of the things that on on top of the arsenal that you are talking
about that years ago when I had seen that kind of that vision as far as when you are
at peace and you're really good at saying this, that it's better to be a warrior in
a garden.
Yes.
Or in a middle level war and we're talking about the weapons of our warfare.
We're talking about being ready in season and out of season and that right now it seems
like as much it's really bizarre to me because it seems like as much as all hell seems to
be breaking loose in our nation with all of the things.
Nations.
Yes.
Yes, sir.
Nations.
And it just feels like this.
It feels like there's just like a lull.
And what I'm seeing is the men of God and I'm not just going to put this on you guys.
Please understand.
And you already know that it's not a but it's like the enemy is creating this thing inside
that says, oh, we're just going to we'll just back up a little bit.
It's going to be okay.
And then what happens eventually is because you're not fighting that focus or you're not
sharpening that sword while you're waiting, then all of a sudden the enemy comes in.
Like you said, John, as far as like he's going to bring, you know, you got the pornography,
you got extramarital affairs, you've got your children going crazy.
You've got all of this stuff that's happening.
Right.
And then it's like the people of God, the moms, the dads, the families, we're not standing
up into our position.
We're not grabbing hold of the weapons that you keep talking about, Luke.
Like we're not pulling down the strongholds.
We're not constantly in prayer.
Tracy, you had actually were talking about just some of the weapons, just praise and
worship and prayer.
Yeah.
Like, what is going on?
Like give us some practical applications.
Like when you are in a scenario, just even as a pastor's things that you might have even
have seen that you can say, if you just do a couple of these things, it will keep you
from kind of tripping up.
What would be some things that you guys would say?
I'll let you lead and I'll kind of follow.
That's kind of our thing.
He leads, I follow.
You know, a lot of times when I deal with people, first off, knowing that they're probably,
you know, dealing with hurt in the situation, I have to approach it a lot like if they're
a dog that's been struck by a car.
Okay.
And, you know, that's probably maybe a little graphic, but I'm trying to think of a way
to explain it.
Yeah, so as much as I want to help them, I know that with every movement there's going
to be pain.
And with, you know, that graphicness of that, you know, I'm trying to help them and at the
same time they're going to lash out and bite and snap and, you know, because they're in
pain.
Even though it's good and everything, you know, the right process, you know, you're
getting them the medical attention, you're whatever, you're giving them the word, you're
giving them the right foundational stuff.
In those moments, you have to remember it's not personal.
Okay, that's good.
It is spiritual.
You're not fighting against flesh and blood.
You're fighting against spiritual principalities of darkness at work.
So if you first off, let people know that no matter what situation they're in, you know,
marital, physical, financial, whatever it is, take out the equation that this is a physical
thing that you're in, but it is a spiritual warfare.
That's good.
And that if you can say, okay, I want you to understand that I'm not attacking you,
even though I'm going to point out the flaws and I'm going to point out not only your flaws,
but the flaws of the situation that you both have created or your jobs created or your
situation is created.
You know, good choices, bad choices, doesn't matter, whatever they are, and then give them
principles.
Okay, let's transform our mind.
Verse 12, verse two, it says, you know, take the word of God, you know, transform your
mind to renewing to the word of God so that you can know the good, perfect purpose of
what God has for you.
So first off, you have to begin to find where you are and pray in that moment.
Find the word that suits the situation.
You know, if you're struggling with love, you like to tell people, okay, you're going
to go to Corinthians chapter 13.
You're going to read this thing over and over.
You understand what love is, and you know, some people say, well, I'm struggling with
faith.
Okay, so you're going to go to the Hall of Faith.
You're going to go to Hebrews 13.
You're going to dig in and you're going to find now people all the time.
I'll say, well, how do I put into practice what God wants me to be?
Okay, so you're just a babe.
Let's go to John.
He's talked so simple about being just a normal believer, human being.
You know, so we have to understand that once we identify the situation, we have to approach
it with cautiousness, but then allow them to be hurt and allow them to be open.
Let them be transparent.
Allow them to lash out.
Let them be human.
Yeah.
And then say, okay, here's what you've got to do.
And then let them know you got to rejoice in the moments.
Up or down.
Doesn't matter.
It's it is a roller coaster.
We're in life.
Yeah.
And in those moments, you got to find your God.
You've got to find your opportunity to allow him to speak to you, which means you need
to shut up.
That's good.
Yeah.
And, you know, most people want to go to God and say, well, you're my sugar daddy in the
sky.
Fix this for me.
Well, that's not what God is.
Right.
You know, so with that, you know, I think we, you know, we deal with people that think,
well, I got saved.
It's peaches and cream.
No, far from it.
No, it's not.
Because on that on the other side, on the non pastoral side, the civilian side or whatever
you want to call it.
I mean, I don't even know a term if there was a term, but hurts going to happen.
Right.
It's going to happen.
And it's OK to not be OK.
We've got to understand that it's OK not to be OK.
But staying in the hurt is a choice.
It's a choice.
And John was talking about how, you know, OK, you're a babe in Christ.
OK, well, that means just like any other life skill, you're going to have to practice.
You're going to have to practice praise in the good and the bad.
You're going to have to practice prayer in the good and the bad.
This is her teacher coming.
This is I'm sorry.
Yes, I'm a teacher by trade.
I'm 14 years, I think.
Yeah, 14 years of teaching.
But it's one of those just that situation where we got to make a choice here.
Yes.
Are you going to wallow in self pity or are we going to stand up, put on our armor of
God, grab those arsenals that we're talking about prayer, praise the Bible, reading the
Word, getting with fellowship with strong Christian friends or as your loving boy said
this morning, Framley.
We are Framley.
We're friends that are now family.
In order to get to a place where we can get past that hurt.
And then what happens is your hurt becomes groundwork for somebody else that you can
push into or you can say, Hey, you know what?
I've been through that.
I know how you feel.
I know what you're going through.
I understand the hurt and the pain.
Let me help you.
Yeah.
Let me help you.
Let's go have coffee.
Let's go talk.
Let's go have some real conversations because we've talked about that before.
It's like, let's not say, Oh, I'm going to just pray for you.
Let's stop and pray and walk away.
And even Heather Eschenbaum said that on Wednesday.
If you tell me to pray for you, I'm going to pray for you.
I'm not going to pray and walk away.
Let's pray together.
Let's go have coffee.
Let's sit down and have real conversations about, okay, what could the underlying situation
be that causes this hurt or caused that hurt?
And if it happens again or we get a trigger, what are we going to do?
Because sometimes, yes, prayers are effective.
Period.
I'll say though that also sometimes it can be more effective or additionally effective
in a way as really bad language.
But getting into somebody's life and making that connection and it's, John, I can pray
for you.
You can come up to me and say, brother, I need prayer.
Okay, let's pray.
Let's pray for this breakthrough.
Let's pray for this to get over this obstacle.
But it's almost more effective if you make that connection.
Because I've thought about it.
It's like during church, during worship, it's one thing to go up all of a sudden, it's like
you're worshiping next to somebody.
You're pushing for the kingdom, but you're just standing there next to somebody and you
both are worshiping versus you have a connection with somebody and you both go up together
or you join somebody that's there and you are worshiping together to push forth the
kingdom.
You're storming the gates of hell together.
It is.
Yes.
And it is.
It's something about that connection.
And I think that's what I like, Tracy, about that concept of I won't just pray for you,
but I'll make that connection with you.
Let's be friends.
Let's get into each other's lives because that can possibly be more effective than just
a prayer.
Absolutely.
Oh, it's for sure effective.
And we do stuff all the time like this.
We have a gentleman that's, he's old enough to be my father and my grandfather, really
served in the military and whatnot.
I spent lots of money to do reloading with him.
I've always wanted to do reloading, but really I don't have the time to do reloading.
But he needed somebody to just listen and to show love.
And we went to eat.
We've done all kinds of stuff together.
His demeanor since the first job I did for him till now has changed.
So it's not just about, it's not just word, it's not just those that are saved or those
that aren't saved.
So yeah, relationship has a huge play.
And people can tell whether you really mean it or not.
If you say you're going to pray on Sunday and you don't call them on Monday and say,
how are you doing today?
You're probably just a liar.
So that's probably a lot of truth in that.
And when you're talking about relationship, again, my story of how I became a Christian,
it was through that relationship.
My neighbor became my friend and wanted to actually get into my life and welcomed me
into his life.
It never talked about Jesus, never talked about the church, never talked about the Bible.
He just-
Lived it out loud.
Yeah, lived out loud and let's share life.
And that was, I was like, you know, he's a cool guy.
Whatever is in him, I want some of that.
I'll give it a shot.
And that's how I became a Christian.
Brings a greater change.
It does.
It really does.
Yeah.
Because it's that connection.
It's not just like a promise of, oh, if you become a Christian, you'll get a better life.
God will fix your problems if you come to church.
He'll give you wisdom and discernment and tell you to stop being a knucklehead.
Yes.
And then you'll make better decisions.
And a lot of people don't like that.
And they don't like that speech.
No.
It's like you get to change.
You now have a blueprint to where you can walk in abundance and goodness, but you also
know how to use the bazookas and learn how to use the arsenal because you will be having
to war and fight for these things.
But you'll be able to fight from an advantage point of God as opposed to the enemy.
Yeah.
So I will shift to sort of a practical question because I know the two of you have done so
much ministry and been pastors and all of that.
A lot of life in churches.
How do you two as a couple, as a married couple, as parents, when all the attacks and all the
arrows are coming at you from outside, how do the two of you stay connected?
Keep that marriage bond strengthened and unified while all the attacks and all the fires are
going on around you?
I know for me, I hate to say I'm a rock, but I'm very much, I'm very solid in where I stand
and what I believe.
That didn't come easy.
That came with a price.
But at the same time, I am one that reaffirms and reaffirms in the, probably in my labors
of what I want to support or how I do things.
When everything else is falling apart, I'm probably the first one to say, okay, that's
enough.
Shut up, knock it off, be quiet, let's move on.
But at the same time, it's kind of like, just as of recent, it was kind of like, okay, you're
not in this for this.
Get up, pull the blankets off your head, smile.
You're doing this for Jesus and you're doing this for those that are much smaller than
you.
My wife just kind of liked me and she goes, I know you're right.
I hate those conversations.
She's probably giving me the evil eye of not looking at her.
But they're needed.
Those conversations are needed.
But I mean, even, we always say outside, but before we came to where we are now and enjoying
the body where we are now, we served for two or three years and we were associate pastors.
The thing that hurt the most is when I heard that they were rejecting the anointing of
God and rejecting what God was doing.
So now the attack was not just, okay, do you play nice and just walk in religion?
Do you just get comfy because everybody else is staying comfy?
Why do you have to rock the boat?
So the attack came immediately.
Well, you just don't want to submit to authority.
You don't want to, you don't like the way we're doing it.
You want your own church.
You want to be the head.
And it's in those moments, you know, I personally struggled.
Not because I wanted to be the head.
Many a times I said, God, I don't want to preach another time.
Just recently had one of those moments where I'm not doing this.
And I got the, you know, kind of the look like, yeah, you are.
You got the mama look.
Not for me either.
And then had to be told again, quit, you know, quit doubting what God's done and speak.
And so sometimes even myself, I find myself doubting not because I doubt my faith or where
I'm at, but I doubt, I doubt the church.
You know, I doubt, you know what?
When I see what it's doing, it hurts.
Yeah.
It hurts deep because I come out of so much garbage and I go, man, how can you throw this
away?
And some people that have been in it forever.
I go, man, you idiot.
You say, what's wrong with you?
So when we come here, you know, we come here with pain, we came here with hurt, we came
here with the mentality, God, I ain't going nowhere.
I want to sit on the back row as far back as I can get, as quiet as I can be.
Let me be the church mouse.
And I just want to worship you and be me.
You know, I don't need nothing else.
So in those moments, you know, is God's very good at dragging us out, you know, you know,
from all sides.
I think in those moments I had to make up my mind.
It wasn't about me.
Yeah, it's good.
And it isn't about me.
Yeah.
And, you know, we're where we are for a purpose on purpose.
You know, so I have to keep it in front of me that, you know, I have to keep, you know,
that which is important in front of me.
You know, so when I keep him in front of me, when he is the main attraction of my life,
you know, when he becomes the focus of my affection, when he is everything to me, that's
when he'll become the center of my attention.
That's and, you know, and it doesn't matter how you put that frontwards or backwards,
if you get it lined up, then he just he unfolds everything.
Yeah.
You know, and I think the last two years of being where we are now and with you guys and
developing friendships and you already, you know, and God saying things like, OK, now
you need to talk about church.
You need to talk about the war.
You need to talk about the body.
You need to talk about how to recover.
You need to.
Yeah.
So it's obvious that, you know, we're not the only ones that have had to stand in tough
times and say, OK, God, you know, evidently you you're allowing people to do this.
Yeah, it's not.
It's not that.
You know, so, yeah, recovery from moments that are difficult inside or out.
You have to make up your mind that it's not about you.
Yeah.
What I also heard, though, John, when you were talking and saying this is what I heard
was you've also allowed yourself to be so incredibly transparent with God.
Like you know what I mean?
Like I am I am a man.
I am faulted.
I am frail.
I am foolish.
I don't I don't have this, but what I do have is God and what he has restored in my life
is is priceless.
And you're not willing to give that up for anything or anybody or any position.
Oh, absolutely.
And I think from the ministry part of it, when it comes to ministers, because I've been
in church all my life, like I've walked through, you know, church hurts.
I've walked through, you know, like church splits.
I'll literally the pillars walking out of the room kind of scenario and you're going,
I don't even know where my foundation lies because our foundation starts lying in people
as opposed to God.
And then you know what I mean?
And then it and then it creates and then it creates false expectations.
Yes.
On to people.
Yes.
And what I heard in you was, I just I just want to be so in love with God that and to
show other people that they can have that too.
Yep.
You know, we try to serve in everything we do.
And we have found that that has been our one of our ministries that God has used us in
and really it helps us stay selfless.
Yeah.
It helps us stay in love with the Lord and helps us stay humble.
God needs us to be humble.
He needs us to be open, transparent.
We have to remind ourselves that people are people.
Tracy, you said it like people are people, right?
Like we have to understand that hurt people hurt people.
We hear it all the time, right?
We teach our kids that because you being a school teacher, me being a substitute teacher,
just we look at these kids and we go, you know, you're going to hurt somebody if you're
hurting still.
So let me help you with that hurt so that way you're no longer somebody that's projecting
pain, but you're somebody that's coming and helping heal that pain.
You said it all, babe.
I didn't mean to.
I mean, that was good.
I was trying to find a way to simplify it and I wasn't doing a good job.
No, I think I think that was good.
I think that's what it is.
I think that's part of our problem.
Can I say it that way?
I think that's part of our problem.
I think we make things too complicated.
I think the enemy wants to come in, right?
He wants to come in, still kill and destroy, but he also wants to create confusion.
He wants to make it harder than what it actually is.
This walk with God, is it hard?
Yes.
Because we have an adversary, but is it hard because of God?
No.
He is such a good, good father.
His yoke is easy, right?
His burden is light.
When we walk with him, just the joy in the midst of the pain, the peace that comes in
the midst of all of it, right?
There's all of the goodness that comes with God.
It's the enemy.
It's the people that are trying to either downplay God or maybe they just don't know
God in that capacity.
Or maybe they put their expectation into something outside of what God wanted to do.
Because Tracy, you actually wrote something down that triggered that thought.
What was your number eight?
How to stand in time of adversary or the storm, or just when you pray and you're waiting for
an answer, you've got to be devoted in the waiting.
Devoted in the waiting.
Like John's like what you're saying.
This is my preset.
Like this is my preset.
At the same time, John, I keep picking on you a little bit.
I don't mean to.
I got broad shoulders.
I know you do.
You've got big.
But like those moments, because I know my guy, my amazing guy, where when, okay, so
we're gym rats.
You guys know this.
We went to the gym.
You took our boy to breakfast.
Sweet, sweet, right?
Precious.
I didn't have sex during the week.
What's wrong with you?
It's fine.
What's wrong with you is when we go to the gym, okay, so people are half naked.
Bless him is what we can say.
And he will protect his eyes and bounce his eyes to protect my heart.
And when you have presets, right, as a man of God, as the head of your household, you
know, even that beautiful girl of yours out there, you know, you're teaching her, she's
watching you.
This is the man that I, this is some day that like I wanted guy like this to marry, right?
You want to be that example for her.
And it's, and it's that space where you say, I will protect my peace at all cost because
of the peace that's behind me.
Yes.
Because of the peace.
You know what I mean?
It's like, it's understanding our positions.
Even the women of God, we're the same way.
I'm not going to listen to the gossip.
You start bashing your husband.
I'm out.
For real.
I'm sorry.
I don't do that.
We don't, we don't, we don't spouse bash.
If I, if I hear somebody do it, we either walk away or I'll go, wow.
And you're the idiot that married them.
Interesting.
Oh, so you put the wedge in.
So you're ready for separation.
You know, and it's like protecting, protecting the peace at all cost, you know, like read
that again.
Could you number being devoted in the waiting, being devoted in the way we got it.
We've got it because there's such a battle going on right now.
You guys can see it in me and feel it in me.
Like I'm, I'm, I'm pretty ramped up.
I am ramped up because I see the onslaught of the enemy to the families.
Yeah.
And for sure.
And earlier when we were talking about that, being the, you know, devoted in the waiting,
like again, my mind went to the, the warrior mindset, the soldier mindset of, you know,
how many times in the military did I go through the, the hurry up and wait?
And even when it's you're waiting, you're still, you're focused on the mission.
You're making sure your gear is in top shape.
You're making sure your weapon is, is clean and ready.
You know, so it's like, you've got all this stuff to do while you're waiting for the next
thing to happen.
Yes.
And it's, I think us as Christians, you know, you know, especially, you know, because of
this podcast, I'll say, you know, especially as married couples, it's like, what can we
do those, those practical steps to walk out, to make sure that, that our marriage is tight,
our marriage is solid, our kids are, are focused, you know, those things that while we're waiting
for the next step, what, what can we work on to make sure that the maintenance is taken
care of?
Absolutely.
And I, I know for us, like something we struggle in, just being transparent.
I am, I'm a praying the night, reading the night, you know, Lord deal with me, you know,
cause it's all, I'm the problem here.
I am the issue.
God, it's me.
Yeah.
You know, so I, you know, my, my way of doing things and her way of doing things, she likes
getting up at the morning, drinking coffee and reading her Bible.
So of course I'm out the door and you know, I'm doing my thing.
So we don't do a lot of together reading, you know, so it's an area that we struggle
with does, you know, would it, would it help and would it be beneficial if we did more
of it together?
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
100%.
We've talked about it many times and we've done family time.
And of course my wife, she's, I can feel her eyes looking to be gone.
I don't know what you're talking about.
She's looking to be folks.
She's looking to be.
If I don't leave this room, I'll tell you where I'm at.
But in this moment, you know, we, we take it, we set aside time, but things can get
out of control.
Yeah.
Men of faith and it just as men in general, as spouses in general, we have to, you know,
we have to set up a guideline and we have to say, okay, we're going to do this or we're
going to, uh, you know, it doesn't matter what it is, whether, you know, it's sexual.
Okay, honey, if we have to put it on a schedule, Wednesdays our day, we're hitting our, hitting
our markets.
You know, whatever it is, you know, I, you know, there was a time in our life where things
were kind of, you know, we went through a loss and, and my wife was really struggling.
I just had to go to her.
I said, honey, I'm a man.
I'm a hungry man.
I need you intimately, like on a regular schedule.
Yeah.
So I don't want to be intimate.
I'm like, no, you don't understand.
This isn't about you.
Right.
So, yeah.
So, you know, we had to be transparent.
We had to just be open, but it's another thing.
You know, when, when, you know, sometimes, you know, I, I don't get as sentimental about
things as she might, or, you know, that she has, and I have to find those things important
as well.
Yeah.
So what you have to do is you have to find a balance to embrace one another where you
are and lift those moments up and encourage them.
She wanted to go further and get her masters.
I was like, okay, you want to go to school?
You're an idiot, but all right, I'll push you all the way, baby.
I'll pay the bill.
Whatever I gotta do.
Now I'm just kidding in a sense, but at the same time, she needed somebody that would
say you can do it.
Yes.
Yeah.
And her mom and dad, that's, you know, they always told her, you want to be this, you
want to be that, you can do this.
Uh, you know, I have to, I have to laugh, you know, when she was going through college,
you know, her, her, the superintendent, the Dean, the, uh, the guy that's in charge, you'll
never be a teacher, you know, 14 years later, I'm going, yeah, you're eating your words,
but, you know, God don't call you to a spot by accident.
So in the context, you have to find the things that are weak in your mate and lift those.
That's good.
Find the things that are strong in your mate and use those to support you where you are.
Yeah.
And, and not just lean on one or the other, but both ways so that you can create a balance
that'll grow in a place.
Is our marriage perfect?
Probably not.
Cause I am the hardest man in the world to live with.
We've been around you long enough.
I plead the fifth.
Just kidding.
Yeah.
She sees she's sweet.
I'll say it.
I'll agree wholeheartedly with Sean.
And I don't live with them.
You're right.
But.
And that's why I plead the fifth.
Cause I do live with them.
So, you know, if you, if you want to do better, you have to, you have to find a way to, to
stay strong and you know, find what your weapon is, where you are, you know, uh, are we on
the same level spiritually?
Probably not.
No.
Yeah.
But we've gone through different things.
You know, she was in, she's been in church her entire life.
I haven't, you know, uh, you know, the context of where we are, but we're growing together.
We're learning to love the Lord together and to find out, uh, you know, I, I'm bold, confident.
I'll tell you who you are and I'll, you know, read your mail if I have to, if God lets,
if that's the way he wants me to do it.
But at the same time, she's quiet, meek and, and reserved.
And then when God raises up confidence in her, then you don't want her to be.
So God will use us where we are, but we have to embrace one another.
Yeah.
It's beautiful.
So if you're available, don't miss the opportunity.
Yeah.
Cause I promise you're made just going, do you see what I'm doing?
Do you, do you, do you hear what I'm at?
Yeah.
Uh, and that's probably an area I don't do the best in, you know, she cleans the house.
I'm going, okay.
I don't say the words of affirmation.
She wants the affirmation.
I want acknowledgement.
Like look what I did.
Yeah.
I did this.
I accomplished this today.
Yeah.
I've just looked at Luke and I'll just say, do you see I cleaned the bathroom today?
I did, baby.
It looks good.
Thank you.
I just, I just, I just, well, I just, I tell him, this is what I did.
Did you see?
I did, babe.
That looks good.
Okay.
I'm gonna probably get ran out.
Probably.
But as a man, you know, I would rather just, I mean, I guess when it comes to my maid,
I'm like, just tell me what you want.
You want flowers?
Just tell me you want flowers.
You want a box of chocolate?
Tell me you want a box of chocolate.
I'll buy the sugar free stuff if that's what it takes.
But if you want something, tell me.
If you don't want something, tell me.
Yeah.
You know, I'm dumb.
Yeah.
Communicate where you are.
I mean, and we've learned that.
Yeah.
She's, she probably, you know, when she's had weak moments, she's had to tell me because
I'm just assuming everything's fine.
I don't pay attention to all the details.
Yeah.
I'm trying to, I guess, you know, I've heard this phrase many times.
I'm trying to fly at 50,000 feet and see where I'm going.
You know, I'm trying to find the next step.
Yeah.
So.
But that's where we've talked about just today that transparency, having those real conversations,
building those relationships is important because if I don't have that relationship
with you or if I don't have that relationship with you, Dina or Luke, in regards to a friendship,
Ramlee or whatever, you're not going to know.
You're right.
You're not going to know because I'm really good at hiding my hurt.
I'm really good.
I have become really good at being strong when I'm not.
And then I expect people to be like, hello, I'm going through something.
Why are you not helping me?
Well, it's because I haven't been open enough and used arsenals that has been given to
me, which is a voice that's part of our arsenal that God has given us.
I don't use my voice enough to say, hey, Dina, I got rejected this week and it really stinks.
Yeah.
You actually did text me.
I know that there's something better, but it stinks.
Yeah.
What do you got?
You know, what do you got for me?
Or sometimes the, oh my gosh, why are you having a breakdown?
Where'd this come from?
It's like, oh, it's been building for three weeks.
Yes.
Yeah.
I just didn't tell you because I didn't want to burden you with the knowledge of my impending
breakdown.
Yeah.
But then going back to, you were talking about us as a married couple, what we do to get
through things and to build, you know, knowing our strengths and our weaknesses.
But we're also parents and it's important that as parents we keep our family unit strong
as well.
And so there will be times I will say, Hey, to our daughter, you need to go spend some
time with your dad.
So why don't you and your dad go do something, even if it's just outside working on his truck,
stop anything, just you need to spend some time with your dad.
You spend a lot of time with me.
I love you, but mom needs a break.
Yes.
So go spend some time with dad because dad's going to teach you life skills that I can't
teach you.
Yeah.
And then when he's needs a break, so to speak, you'll come back to me and then to go out
and do things together.
Yes.
And that's important too, because I see too many kids every day who don't have that structure,
don't have that love, don't have that family support.
And to have a strong family, you've got to learn to do things together.
Even if I don't want to go to the trampoline park, I'm going to go to the trampoline park.
I heard the trampoline park a lot today.
Even if I don't want to go to Oceans of Fun because I do not like water parks, I will
go.
Good to know.
Sorry, there's no cameras in here, but my face says everything.
Sorry, I have no filter.
They're going to be building a new amusement park here in Kansas City.
Guys, this one, we are going to enjoy this one.
It's based on Mattel.
I saw that.
So it's like Hot Wheels and Barbie.
All the 70s and 80s babies.
I heard that.
I just didn't know how upfront it was.
That's our generation, babe.
I'm so stoked.
Because they know that we're the ones that have the money now.
You have to strengthen your family too, and that means you're going to have to build relationships
with your family members and do things.
Yes.
And keep that family unit strong.
I remember our neighbor next door coming out and we were putting brakes on my brother-in-law's
car.
And Lee was six.
Probably.
And I got the car all jacked up on blocks, and I got the tires off, and she's covered
in grease from head to toe.
That's awesome.
Putting brakes on, and I'm showing her where everything goes.
And the neighbor goes, you really shouldn't have her under that car.
And I said, I promise you, by the time she's a teenager, she'll probably be building motors
in this yard.
Of course, I was being sarcastic, but I was thinking back when I was a kid.
Those moments meant something.
Yeah.
And I want her to feel confident.
She has a flat tire.
I want her to be able to change it.
Come on.
If she has something that she needs to get done, she'll be able to take care of it.
Or even if she doesn't know how to take care of it, she knows...
She knows how to get help.
Yeah.
She knows Dad can fix it.
I mean, that was me.
Dad can fix anything.
Yeah.
And I remember that always was under the hood with my dad, my stepdad.
And he was a lot like your dad.
So it's like...
And you see Luke's woodworking tools in the garage and all of the things, right?
And it's like, I was always surrounded by that.
But what it put inside of me was even if I don't know how to change that or fix that
or whatever, I know enough to keep me out of trouble or...
And I know enough to make me dangerous.
You know what I mean?
And in a good way, because it's always that feeling of somebody taking advantage of you
or something of that nature.
And you can just stand back and say, no, well, this is what this needs.
No, no, I don't think so.
But thank you for your time.
And it does.
It creates, like you said, it creates a confidence inside of our children.
And it also places a space because you guys do have this really great relationship with
your daughter.
And Luke and I have talked about this too, that you guys have created a space that even
if she does get in a bind, when she gets in a bind, because again, life happens, she knows
that she has a relationship that she can come to mom and dad.
And that's something that Luke and I are constantly in that space of, babe, do you know that I'm
a safe person for you?
You know, hey, husband, hey, wife, that's listening right now.
Are you a safe person for your spouse to fall down and fall apart right there at your...
Babe, I got caught in this.
Babe, I did this.
Babe, I...
You know what I mean?
Whatever it was.
Even with all the presets and everything involved, this is what happened.
Are you still a safe person?
Are you somebody that says, we're going to fight through this together?
We're going to link arms together and we're going to say, this will not take us down,
but it will take us further and higher and above and beyond what the enemy made to evil.
God is going to get the glory in the midst of this.
You know, and it's having those presets too, because it's not just, I won't do certain
things, but it's just in case something happens and it may not inadvertently, however it went
down or just there's...
We're frail humans that are weak at times in saying, or even looking at your spouse
and saying, I'm struggling right now, like right here.
Can you help me?
And in being transparent and being vulnerable enough to say, it's okay for me, not just
as the wife, but the husband to the wife too, to be weak in front of each other.
I like what you had said though, John, as far as like, not just knowing your spouse's
strengths, but knowing their weaknesses and learning how to build onto those things.
Because we tease with you all the time.
We adore you, man.
We really do.
Sure, sure.
You're...
You're great people.
You really are a good little brother.
Because I do.
I have to remind myself that we're the older ones.
Yeah, we are.
Sure.
Yes.
Not by much.
These two are babies, but not by much.
Yeah.
But you guys have such wisdom, right?
You guys walk in such wisdom.
And it is, it's one of those where you guys compliment each other so beautifully.
Thank you.
You really do.
Thank you.
And as many times as I always laugh and say, I would kick you in the head at this point.
It's just that simple.
Talking to John, not Tracy.
Tracy's my girl.
Of course, it's me.
But it is, to see the strengths and how you guys just balance each other and how you allow
the Holy Spirit ebb and flow through the two of you, it's encouraging.
I want, I personally, Luke and I personally want to encourage you guys.
Because we do get, we have gotten a chance to sit in spaces with you guys that other
people may not get to see.
And you guys are the real deal.
You guys are the real deal.
Who you say you are is who you are.
You guys aren't trying to sugarcoat it.
You're not trying to bank yourself bigger than what you are.
You guys literally are just, you are literally the goodness of God.
And we appreciate you guys very much.
Thank you.
So as we're going to wrap up.
I'm going to look to you, John and Tracy, any parting wisdom, practical tips for couples,
for couples that are in ministry, couples that are raising teenagers, anything practical
that y'all would like to pass on that you haven't already shared?
Well, the whole teenager thing, I'm still working out, so I can't really answer or give
wisdom on that.
I'm not that one.
But I would have to say keep dating your spouse.
I'm still after 18 years learning more and more about him.
And then that respect for him is growing each passing moment.
So date your spouse, fall in love with them over and over again, even in the aggravating
times that will come, because they will.
They will come.
You will get mad at your spouse.
And like I've said before, how are you going to handle it?
That's good.
Yeah.
Are you going to be a bigger person and be forgiving?
Try and find a bigger picture, because your spouse is going to make a mistake.
Whether it's small or big, they're going to make a mistake.
So keep loving them, keep forgiving them.
Don't stay angry.
Come on.
Because that's another window for Satan to the enemy to, and we give him way too much
credit, but that is another window and avenue that he is going to use against you because
he has tried to use that against us, is our anger towards one another.
And it wasn't pretty.
Just because you think I'm mad doesn't mean I'm mad.
Okay.
What's your words of wisdom now?
Oh, I don't know that I have really any words of wisdom.
I'm learning every day how to be a husband, how to be a father.
And with that, I guess I'm keeping God the center of my attention, the focus of my affection
and the main attraction of my life, the best that I can.
If we do that with God and He's making us His bride, what would it be like if we did
that with our wife?
Shoot, sir.
Yep.
This is why we brought him down.
It's true.
Dude.
Yeah.
Enough said.
I love that.
Yeah.
We love you guys.
We love you.
We love you too.
Thank you for having us.
Thanks for coming.
Thanks for talking with us.
I mean, they kind of didn't have a choice.
They really didn't.
No, we didn't.
No.
I mean, not that we had them.
Was this payment for sleeping on your bed?
Maybe.
All right, guys.
You have the best week.
Enjoy the journey.