WEBVTT 00:00:33.500 --> 00:00:37.079 The podcast is sponsored by Startupsummit .io, 00:00:37.719 --> 00:00:40.100 a today event bringing together 2 ,000 founders, 00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:42.740 investors, and industry leaders from across Europe. 00:00:43.399 --> 00:00:45.159 As a thank you for being part of the podcast 00:00:45.159 --> 00:00:48.560 community, we are now offering 50 % off all tickets 00:00:48.560 --> 00:00:51.539 by using the code podcast in all capitals on 00:00:51.539 --> 00:00:54.100 the website. See you in Lisbon. Hi, and welcome 00:00:54.100 --> 00:00:56.759 to another episode of the Innovation Conversation. 00:00:56.960 --> 00:00:59.119 Now, today we are joined by Jonathan Zhou. Jonathan, 00:00:59.179 --> 00:01:01.320 welcome to the podcast. Hi, Ricardo. How are 00:01:01.320 --> 00:01:03.590 you? Good, thank you. Jonathan, would you like 00:01:03.590 --> 00:01:05.189 to introduce yourself to the audience, please? 00:01:05.450 --> 00:01:08.290 Yeah, sure. My name is Jonathan. I've built a 00:01:08.290 --> 00:01:11.510 startup that helps people streamline their 3D 00:01:11.510 --> 00:01:15.090 workflow, the background in architecture, learn 00:01:15.090 --> 00:01:18.689 how difficult it is to build a model in 3D, learn 00:01:18.689 --> 00:01:21.730 all those 3D software. So now I'm trying to help 00:01:21.730 --> 00:01:24.349 people streamline that process using generative 00:01:24.349 --> 00:01:27.450 AI. without having to learn everything from scratch. 00:01:28.670 --> 00:01:30.849 What prompted you to get started in the entrepreneurial 00:01:30.849 --> 00:01:36.010 world? My dad had been an entrepreneur when I 00:01:36.010 --> 00:01:40.450 was little. I grew up in China and when I was 00:01:40.450 --> 00:01:42.930 growing up for him, that was the late 90s, early 00:01:42.930 --> 00:01:46.469 2000s. The entrepreneurial spirit in the country 00:01:46.469 --> 00:01:49.849 is very high. Everybody in the cities are trying 00:01:49.849 --> 00:01:52.519 to... start some sort of the business themselves. 00:01:53.019 --> 00:01:56.920 And my dad go into the telecom business. So I 00:01:56.920 --> 00:02:01.480 guess it's like high -tech, fast -growing, hyperscaler 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:04.780 unicorn -type company for that time. That's always 00:02:04.780 --> 00:02:08.219 been sort of hanging around the background. So 00:02:08.219 --> 00:02:13.360 I knew from quite early on that I wanted to build 00:02:13.360 --> 00:02:16.659 on the latest technology and bring that, fast 00:02:16.659 --> 00:02:19.939 forward that to the people. I wasn't that interested 00:02:19.939 --> 00:02:22.680 in the telecommunication space. I found my interest 00:02:22.680 --> 00:02:28.039 in designing buildings and putting up car models 00:02:28.039 --> 00:02:31.419 and things like that. I used to build model trains 00:02:31.419 --> 00:02:33.979 from cardboard and straws, which was the real 00:02:33.979 --> 00:02:36.439 track. So that's why I decided to pursue a degree 00:02:36.439 --> 00:02:40.419 in architecture. And going into that industry, 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:43.479 I suddenly understood that there is so much unexplored, 00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:46.039 so much usage for new technology unexplored in 00:02:46.039 --> 00:02:49.250 that sector, being very slow moving. First started 00:02:49.250 --> 00:02:52.449 experimenting with image generation tools. There's 00:02:52.449 --> 00:02:55.569 one called PixiePix for this predating stable 00:02:55.569 --> 00:02:58.610 diffusion. And there was those very early image 00:02:58.610 --> 00:03:02.090 generation tools that let you turn an image of 00:03:02.090 --> 00:03:04.409 the summer into an image of the winter or turn 00:03:04.409 --> 00:03:07.530 a horse into a zebra. The quality is rubbish. 00:03:08.750 --> 00:03:11.590 The promise was definitely there. What it managed 00:03:11.590 --> 00:03:15.409 to do is it allowed someone with an imagination, 00:03:15.509 --> 00:03:18.969 with an idea. with some sort of design aspiration 00:03:18.969 --> 00:03:22.710 to turn just this idea in their head into something 00:03:22.710 --> 00:03:25.250 visual, into a visual expression that they wouldn't 00:03:25.250 --> 00:03:28.289 otherwise have been able to, had it not gone 00:03:28.289 --> 00:03:30.590 to, let's say, an art school or spent a lot of 00:03:30.590 --> 00:03:34.930 time drawing things or using Adobe suites like 00:03:34.930 --> 00:03:38.729 Photoshop to do all of that stuff. And now anybody 00:03:38.729 --> 00:03:41.370 with a great idea would be able to do something 00:03:41.370 --> 00:03:44.849 like that. And because I was in the 3D world 00:03:44.849 --> 00:03:47.759 in architecture, decided that is the direction 00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:50.599 I'm going to go. Was it hard to transition from 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:54.680 architecture to AI? Yeah, it was super hard because 00:03:54.680 --> 00:03:59.500 none of the fundamentals in, say, the principles 00:03:59.500 --> 00:04:04.860 of building a software or how the AI algorithm 00:04:04.860 --> 00:04:09.159 works is taught in the university. That's number 00:04:09.159 --> 00:04:11.889 one. That wasn't the hardest part because You 00:04:11.889 --> 00:04:14.389 can just learn it from YouTube nowadays. The 00:04:14.389 --> 00:04:17.529 hardest part is the general mood in the industry, 00:04:17.790 --> 00:04:20.689 which was quite... I don't want to use the word 00:04:20.689 --> 00:04:24.629 Luddite, but there is a big faction of the community 00:04:24.629 --> 00:04:27.990 that is quite against technology. People, they're 00:04:27.990 --> 00:04:29.920 still... There's still a lot of people that's 00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:32.920 against CAD. People sometimes like to draw their 00:04:32.920 --> 00:04:35.980 own plans and sections and make models by hand. 00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:38.000 Of course, there's merit to that. There's more 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:40.579 of a tactile feel to the whole process. Your 00:04:40.579 --> 00:04:44.319 hands are in contact with the material. But that 00:04:44.319 --> 00:04:46.920 is kind of the atmosphere of the industry that 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:49.519 we're dealing with. There are a small handful 00:04:49.519 --> 00:04:51.860 of pioneers, but there are a lot of people who 00:04:51.860 --> 00:04:55.420 like the old way of doing things. And being in 00:04:55.420 --> 00:04:57.899 that environment and being the person that says, 00:04:58.160 --> 00:05:01.540 Okay, I think doing all of these complicated 00:05:01.540 --> 00:05:04.560 3D modeling process, if you continue to do it 00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:08.759 the way you do it, it's going to become a craft 00:05:08.759 --> 00:05:11.240 of the past. We've got to figure out a better 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:15.100 way to design in 3D. And the biggest example 00:05:15.100 --> 00:05:19.560 for that is when we're doing projects, you sort 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:23.180 of have to design something, build it out. So 00:05:23.180 --> 00:05:26.529 you model in 3D, you see it in 3D space. before 00:05:26.529 --> 00:05:29.250 you can show it to anybody else to bounce ideas 00:05:29.250 --> 00:05:31.389 around on how you can edit it, make it better. 00:05:32.310 --> 00:05:34.889 Because it's one thing to say, I've got this 00:05:34.889 --> 00:05:36.949 idea in my head. I think the hallway should look 00:05:36.949 --> 00:05:38.970 like this. I think this is what the engine should 00:05:38.970 --> 00:05:43.189 be. But until you put it on a screen or on a 00:05:43.189 --> 00:05:46.290 piece of paper to make it visual, it's very hard 00:05:46.290 --> 00:05:49.009 to communicate that with other people. So that 00:05:49.009 --> 00:05:52.250 process is very long. And then you've got someone, 00:05:52.449 --> 00:05:55.029 maybe a more senior architect or maybe a client 00:05:55.029 --> 00:05:57.899 saying, Oh, that is not what I was thinking. 00:05:58.100 --> 00:06:00.100 That is exactly the opposite of what I was thinking, 00:06:00.259 --> 00:06:02.579 actually. And then you realize you just spent 00:06:02.579 --> 00:06:06.399 two weeks doing something that was wrong from 00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:09.759 the first day. So that, in my opinion, is a massive 00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:16.740 problem in that iteration process. Some people 00:06:16.740 --> 00:06:18.879 in the industry seems to enjoy that iteration 00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:21.379 process, but I think it's not necessarily like 00:06:21.379 --> 00:06:24.209 that. And then what prompted you to launch your 00:06:24.209 --> 00:06:26.850 own business after that? Because obviously you're 00:06:26.850 --> 00:06:29.170 frustrated with the process of architecture, 00:06:29.250 --> 00:06:30.449 and then you decide to launch your business. 00:06:31.269 --> 00:06:35.750 How did it come up with the idea? Yeah, so after 00:06:35.750 --> 00:06:39.149 I became frustrated with the process, my first 00:06:39.149 --> 00:06:41.730 reaction was more of an emotional response. It 00:06:41.730 --> 00:06:45.490 was just going into the dark side of commercial 00:06:45.490 --> 00:06:48.689 real estate, which is something that I think 00:06:48.689 --> 00:06:52.639 annoyed quite a lot of people around me. professors, 00:06:53.019 --> 00:06:57.660 other people in the course, et cetera. So I went 00:06:57.660 --> 00:07:00.620 into a commercial real estate company, seeing 00:07:00.620 --> 00:07:05.420 how, I guess, how the real world works, how to 00:07:05.420 --> 00:07:08.540 monetize that design, why people commission architects 00:07:08.540 --> 00:07:11.319 to do those designs. And it became very, very 00:07:11.319 --> 00:07:13.860 clear to me that there's a massive divide between 00:07:13.860 --> 00:07:17.500 the way designers think and the way, I guess, 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:20.920 the industry. things. And instead of, I guess, 00:07:21.180 --> 00:07:23.040 maybe, maybe starting, starting the business 00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:25.800 is that potentially what's the easy way out. 00:07:25.959 --> 00:07:28.079 Because instead of trying to convince people 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:30.399 who might or might not be on board with your 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:34.740 idea, you can build something and show them that 00:07:34.740 --> 00:07:36.959 it could be done in an alternative way. So it's 00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:39.540 like the, it's like that sales 101 thing where, 00:07:39.879 --> 00:07:43.839 where it's a show, don't tell. Right. So that's 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:46.339 why I decided to do it. And I, and I, and I had 00:07:46.339 --> 00:07:50.029 the skills to do it as a, It's an online business, 00:07:50.430 --> 00:07:54.790 very little upfront capital cost. There's many 00:07:54.790 --> 00:07:56.850 different cloud computing services companies 00:07:56.850 --> 00:08:00.970 that give out very generous credits. I guess 00:08:00.970 --> 00:08:03.170 they want people to use their platform to build 00:08:03.170 --> 00:08:08.870 things. It was, in my mind at the time, an easier 00:08:08.870 --> 00:08:12.649 path than to stay in an old industry and try 00:08:12.649 --> 00:08:14.790 to change it that way. And this was in China, 00:08:14.930 --> 00:08:17.300 so was it hard to open a business in China? Uh, 00:08:17.379 --> 00:08:21.579 this was, uh, this was in London. So after, when 00:08:21.579 --> 00:08:24.519 I was, when I was about 14, I moved from, moved 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:28.180 from China to, uh, to the UK and then been here. 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:31.579 Yeah. I've been here for almost 10 years. I think 00:08:31.579 --> 00:08:34.340 it's a one month shy of 10 years. So yeah, that, 00:08:34.340 --> 00:08:36.279 that, that wasn't, that wasn't London. That wasn't 00:08:36.279 --> 00:08:39.779 London. That was, um, uh, a year and a half ago. 00:08:40.299 --> 00:08:42.919 I thought, so the first, the first ever, the 00:08:42.919 --> 00:08:46.399 first business was one step back from designing. 00:08:46.750 --> 00:08:49.450 and design and build buildings, because that's 00:08:49.450 --> 00:08:52.210 a very, very ambitious goal. So I took a step 00:08:52.210 --> 00:08:54.789 back and thought, okay, something that needs 00:08:54.789 --> 00:08:59.230 to fulfill a user's brief, something that's visually 00:08:59.230 --> 00:09:01.370 pleasing, something that is three -dimensional, 00:09:01.490 --> 00:09:04.009 something that can be produced easily, and doesn't 00:09:04.009 --> 00:09:07.429 need to satisfy planning regulations, fire regulations, 00:09:07.929 --> 00:09:09.590 structural engineering constraints, and things 00:09:09.590 --> 00:09:12.370 like that. And the target I found was accessories, 00:09:12.590 --> 00:09:15.580 jewelry. It follows very similar process, but 00:09:15.580 --> 00:09:19.700 with a lot less legislative and usage related 00:09:19.700 --> 00:09:22.000 constraints. So, you know, someone, someone has 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:24.059 a design for something three dimensional. You 00:09:24.059 --> 00:09:26.220 can, you design it for them. You iterate through 00:09:26.220 --> 00:09:28.759 the process and you produce it. So yes, you can, 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:31.240 you can 3d print buildings, but it's very capital 00:09:31.240 --> 00:09:35.059 intensive and it's a, and it's not a 3d print, 00:09:35.220 --> 00:09:37.500 it's not a portable size 3d printer that you 00:09:37.500 --> 00:09:39.159 bring around construction sites and you print 00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:41.960 it. And also they're not quite big. I mean, they're 00:09:41.960 --> 00:09:44.840 not going to be huge, right? I know you can treat 00:09:44.840 --> 00:09:46.580 the print houses, but they're not going to be 00:09:46.580 --> 00:09:48.399 huge, right? They're going to be small family 00:09:48.399 --> 00:09:54.340 houses. Yes, or unless you want to build a massive 00:09:54.340 --> 00:09:59.019 printing machine or a workflow that kind of has 00:09:59.019 --> 00:10:01.940 to be bigger than the actual building that they're 00:10:01.940 --> 00:10:06.500 doing. It doesn't quite make sense yet. Jewelry 00:10:06.500 --> 00:10:09.059 was the thing that made sense for me. Accessories. 00:10:09.340 --> 00:10:12.799 So what we did was we designed a web app that 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:16.639 let people chat to a virtual designer system, 00:10:17.139 --> 00:10:20.980 which helps them refine their ideas. So that 00:10:20.980 --> 00:10:26.179 is a big thing. When you give someone a tool 00:10:26.179 --> 00:10:29.580 that let them turn their imagination into reality, 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:31.860 and you just ask them to type in a text prompt, 00:10:32.139 --> 00:10:34.679 it's almost like pointing a camera on the street 00:10:34.679 --> 00:10:37.419 at someone and say, hey, let's do an interview. 00:10:38.609 --> 00:10:40.950 don't go black. It's not because they have nothing 00:10:40.950 --> 00:10:44.450 interesting to say, but because that pressure 00:10:44.450 --> 00:10:49.730 and that suddenness doesn't get the best out 00:10:49.730 --> 00:10:52.750 of people. So what we did was we had a design 00:10:52.750 --> 00:10:55.649 assistant that goes back and forth, have a conversation 00:10:55.649 --> 00:10:58.309 with this person thinking, okay, why have you 00:10:58.309 --> 00:11:00.309 got this design? What kind of details are you 00:11:00.309 --> 00:11:03.509 looking for, et cetera? And then come up with 00:11:03.509 --> 00:11:06.230 a, I guess, attempt to get as much out of... 00:11:06.279 --> 00:11:08.899 as much out of the designer, the human designer 00:11:08.899 --> 00:11:12.399 or user as possible. And we generate a 3D model, 00:11:12.600 --> 00:11:15.120 iterate through different versions, change different 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:18.759 bits, and then we 3D print them in different 00:11:18.759 --> 00:11:22.559 materials, from resin, silver, stainless steel, 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:26.000 to other precious metal like gold. And what was 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:27.600 the biggest challenge, you know, launching that 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:34.320 business? That business is kind of like a couple 00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:36.500 of different business. or in the same place. 00:11:36.600 --> 00:11:39.779 It was too complicated. And it was challenging 00:11:39.779 --> 00:11:43.480 because it's like running a software company, 00:11:43.940 --> 00:11:46.120 running a jewelry business, and running a 3D 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:48.340 print shop all at the same time. And you've got 00:11:48.340 --> 00:11:50.340 to be able to run all those three businesses 00:11:50.340 --> 00:11:55.460 all as startups, not as well -oiled machines 00:11:55.460 --> 00:11:58.259 in order for this to be successful. So that was 00:11:58.259 --> 00:12:00.480 really challenging. And we had a very, very small 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:03.870 team, two people. That was the best part. Yeah, 00:12:03.990 --> 00:12:10.830 that was hard. Two people with bootstrapped funding. 00:12:11.090 --> 00:12:14.649 So that was hard. But what we figured out from 00:12:14.649 --> 00:12:18.470 that process is that people want to have ideas, 00:12:18.929 --> 00:12:21.870 want to design their own thing. And we can help 00:12:21.870 --> 00:12:24.289 them make that process easier. And it could be 00:12:24.289 --> 00:12:25.970 in the jewelry industry. It could be in other 00:12:25.970 --> 00:12:29.509 industries. So we decided to pivot into helping 00:12:29.509 --> 00:12:33.100 people. automate or make simpler their existing 00:12:33.100 --> 00:12:35.600 process instead of creating a new process in 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:37.779 itself. In hindsight, I was too ambitious of 00:12:37.779 --> 00:12:39.580 a goal to start with, even though at the time 00:12:39.580 --> 00:12:43.740 it sounded easier than changing existing workflow. 00:12:44.379 --> 00:12:47.179 So right now. Yeah. I'm just curious, what were 00:12:47.179 --> 00:12:48.879 you saying to yourself? Like you're getting all 00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:51.580 this feedback. Obviously it's not, it's not the 00:12:51.580 --> 00:12:53.580 ideal feedback. It's not the one you want to 00:12:53.580 --> 00:12:55.620 have. And what were you saying to yourself? Like 00:12:55.620 --> 00:12:57.279 what kept you motivated? What kept you keeping 00:12:57.279 --> 00:13:01.309 pushing forward? What kept me... fishing forwards 00:13:01.309 --> 00:13:06.669 with a friend of mine once told me that if you 00:13:06.669 --> 00:13:09.429 know that you're a hundred no's away from a yes, 00:13:09.830 --> 00:13:13.029 what would you do? Yeah. Yeah. I didn't really 00:13:13.029 --> 00:13:15.509 answer. No, it wasn't expecting an answer. It's 00:13:15.509 --> 00:13:18.090 a rhetorical question. And the answer would be 00:13:18.090 --> 00:13:20.289 you go full steam ahead and try different things. 00:13:20.629 --> 00:13:22.789 You try a hundred wrong things and you finally 00:13:22.789 --> 00:13:25.149 get a yes. And that's sort of what happened to 00:13:25.149 --> 00:13:27.769 us. We found some successes in the marketing 00:13:27.769 --> 00:13:31.549 industry. We, after speaking serendipitously, 00:13:31.690 --> 00:13:34.590 in fact, speaking to a couple advertising agencies 00:13:34.590 --> 00:13:37.850 that are doing ads in 3D space. So one of those 00:13:37.850 --> 00:13:39.870 massive screens you see on Trafalgar Square, 00:13:40.029 --> 00:13:42.730 Times Square, with like the product turning into 00:13:42.730 --> 00:13:45.049 a 3D model, comes out of the screen, spins around 00:13:45.049 --> 00:13:48.789 and coming back in. So we chatted with them. 00:13:48.870 --> 00:13:51.029 They told us about the bottleneck, which was 00:13:51.029 --> 00:13:54.940 their outreach program. They used to hire design 00:13:54.940 --> 00:13:58.519 as 3D modelers to model out the products, model, 00:13:59.240 --> 00:14:02.659 render a nice video and use that as a mockup 00:14:02.659 --> 00:14:06.340 to send to prospective customers, people who 00:14:06.340 --> 00:14:08.659 are not yet paying them. And they have a throughput 00:14:08.659 --> 00:14:12.139 about one mockup per day per designer. And they 00:14:12.139 --> 00:14:14.539 can't really justify spending more money on hiring 00:14:14.539 --> 00:14:17.700 more people because they can't guarantee an income 00:14:17.700 --> 00:14:20.639 from those prospective clients. They've got a 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:24.149 limited marketing budget. And we came in and 00:14:24.149 --> 00:14:29.090 say, OK, how about we automate that process? 00:14:29.669 --> 00:14:32.750 We know our final model, our rendering, is not 00:14:32.750 --> 00:14:36.429 going to be as good as the best human 3D designers, 00:14:36.769 --> 00:14:42.450 which you have. But we know that it's going to 00:14:42.450 --> 00:14:45.429 be quicker than them. And you don't need 100 00:14:45.429 --> 00:14:49.899 % quality for your mockups. that could be your 00:14:49.899 --> 00:14:53.299 first layer of figuring out if a brand or a company 00:14:53.299 --> 00:14:57.120 is even interested in going in to do any sort 00:14:57.120 --> 00:15:01.100 of collaboration. And they loved it. And now 00:15:01.100 --> 00:15:06.320 they've gotten rid of their outreach bottleneck. 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:12.419 This is one of those examples where I think persistence 00:15:12.419 --> 00:15:16.059 and persistence whilst open to trying different 00:15:16.059 --> 00:15:20.389 things and looking at adjacent industries is 00:15:20.389 --> 00:15:24.990 super important in an early stage startup when 00:15:24.990 --> 00:15:27.029 the idea is still fluid. What would you say to 00:15:27.029 --> 00:15:30.710 your younger self, like yourself like two years 00:15:30.710 --> 00:15:31.990 ago when you're just launching the business? 00:15:32.830 --> 00:15:38.009 I would say spend some time building a team first 00:15:38.009 --> 00:15:40.730 and then figure out the product and then figure 00:15:40.730 --> 00:15:42.909 out what's the market and then figure out what 00:15:42.909 --> 00:15:46.690 you want to build because having Having a team 00:15:46.690 --> 00:15:49.769 that works in the same pace as you, that understands 00:15:49.769 --> 00:15:55.590 each other's strengths and weaknesses, understands 00:15:55.590 --> 00:15:59.929 each other's approach, would be really beneficial 00:15:59.929 --> 00:16:03.029 in the build and launch phase of the project. 00:16:03.269 --> 00:16:06.190 And if you can iron that out, you can ship products 00:16:06.190 --> 00:16:08.850 a lot quicker. And that was something I didn't 00:16:08.850 --> 00:16:11.370 do at the beginning. Was it hard finding a team 00:16:11.370 --> 00:16:15.350 to work with you? It's hard because it's a... 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:18.960 It's hard, in my opinion, because it's quite 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:22.299 a niche industry. Not everybody understands what 00:16:22.299 --> 00:16:25.679 this whole 3D business is all about. And it's 00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:29.440 also not one of those businesses that has already 00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:35.980 identified a very clear market gap with sort 00:16:35.980 --> 00:16:38.360 of a solution already in mind to fix it. Example 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:41.779 like Revolut. It becomes a game of finding other 00:16:41.779 --> 00:16:45.049 like -minded people in a small subset of available 00:16:45.049 --> 00:16:48.450 entrepreneurs out there. Nowadays, what do you 00:16:48.450 --> 00:16:52.649 do when times get rough? How do you keep pushing 00:16:52.649 --> 00:16:54.509 forward? But most important, how do you keep 00:16:54.509 --> 00:16:58.210 yourself in balance? Yeah. I don't really think 00:16:58.210 --> 00:17:01.710 about that because I think I'm naturally quite 00:17:01.710 --> 00:17:03.809 an optimistic person. I'm naturally quite a happy 00:17:03.809 --> 00:17:08.460 person. All of these drawbacks, it's not using 00:17:08.460 --> 00:17:10.720 the American terms, it's not my first rodeo. 00:17:11.339 --> 00:17:13.779 It's not the first time someone said no, or the 00:17:13.779 --> 00:17:17.660 first time someone said nasty things. I remember 00:17:17.660 --> 00:17:20.880 when we were doing market research, when we were 00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:24.779 reaching out to BD artists, 3D print shops, and 00:17:24.779 --> 00:17:28.160 people like that on Etsy who are offering bespoke 00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:32.839 3D accessories. One of the people there said, 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:36.019 I'm not going to swear on your podcast, but basically 00:17:36.019 --> 00:17:39.599 a very nasty swear word and said, don't use, 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:41.920 we're not interested in all of any of this AI 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:45.140 stuff. And don't you dare use my models to train 00:17:45.140 --> 00:17:53.769 AI bots. The reaction is quite emotional, which 00:17:53.769 --> 00:17:57.309 is understandable. People are worried about this. 00:17:57.970 --> 00:18:00.430 I know you also have on your LinkedIn saying 00:18:00.430 --> 00:18:04.390 you're a glider pilot. So how much of inspiration 00:18:04.390 --> 00:18:08.049 do you take from your glider pilot expertise? 00:18:08.470 --> 00:18:10.029 Because it's all about going with the flow, isn't 00:18:10.029 --> 00:18:11.190 it, when you're gliding? I mean, you need to 00:18:11.190 --> 00:18:13.630 catch the hot air currents, you need to sustain 00:18:13.630 --> 00:18:15.210 the air as long as possible, and you also need 00:18:15.210 --> 00:18:17.589 to land safely. So how much do you take from 00:18:17.589 --> 00:18:22.420 that and just apply it to business? So in gliding, 00:18:22.700 --> 00:18:25.720 what you have to do is, so the type of gliding 00:18:25.720 --> 00:18:29.859 I did was, it's one of the sail planes. So it's 00:18:29.859 --> 00:18:31.599 a plane without an engine. You have a tractor 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:33.680 that winches you up to about a thousand feet. 00:18:34.019 --> 00:18:37.039 And then if you're lucky, you find, you find 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:39.400 some sort of uplift, a thermal they call it. 00:18:39.819 --> 00:18:42.579 And then you try to stay there as long as possible, 00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:45.099 get as much altitude as possible, and then glide 00:18:45.099 --> 00:18:47.539 somewhere else to find, to find another one of 00:18:47.539 --> 00:18:51.390 its uplifts. The trick to gliding is that you've 00:18:51.390 --> 00:18:53.950 got to know when to stop. You've got to know 00:18:53.950 --> 00:18:56.410 when to stop looking for those thermals. You've 00:18:56.410 --> 00:18:59.890 got to see when your altitude balance is low 00:18:59.890 --> 00:19:02.970 and come back to base. The aerodrome that I was 00:19:02.970 --> 00:19:07.150 flying out of was on a cliff. It was about 200 00:19:07.150 --> 00:19:13.089 feet above the fields around it. And people have, 00:19:15.009 --> 00:19:18.400 before my time in that gliding club, people have 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:21.859 ended up sort of landing in the cornfields or 00:19:21.859 --> 00:19:25.660 wheat fields that's under the cliff because they 00:19:25.660 --> 00:19:28.559 were looking too much directly underneath them 00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:34.240 instead of in the airfield. And that for me was 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:38.680 the lesson of you got to know where you started, 00:19:39.460 --> 00:19:42.839 where you want to end up, and know when to rebase 00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:45.339 yourself. because if you can't find, if you can't 00:19:45.339 --> 00:19:46.660 find one of those uplifts, you've got to come 00:19:46.660 --> 00:19:49.019 back to base and then get winched up again. And 00:19:49.019 --> 00:19:51.039 then, and then you can, and then you can do it. 00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:53.039 And instead of, and for me, that was instead 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:55.279 of drifting away with this whole curary accessories 00:19:55.279 --> 00:19:58.180 idea, it's more of, okay, going back to the drawing 00:19:58.180 --> 00:20:02.839 board. My goal is to make 3d design process easier. 00:20:03.259 --> 00:20:05.640 What else can I do there? And then do it again. 00:20:06.259 --> 00:20:10.640 And now we're, I guess, taking the metaphor of 00:20:10.730 --> 00:20:12.750 Now we're finding some thermals. It's nowhere 00:20:12.750 --> 00:20:15.210 near guaranteed that that will continue, like 00:20:15.210 --> 00:20:18.269 any sort of weather events. And if that continues, 00:20:18.630 --> 00:20:22.250 great, we'll keep going higher. And we'll use 00:20:22.250 --> 00:20:26.150 the experience resources acquired and go find 00:20:26.150 --> 00:20:28.890 a thermal in an adjacent piece of cloud. Usually 00:20:28.890 --> 00:20:32.190 it's under the cloud. So usually clouds are sort 00:20:32.190 --> 00:20:35.339 of propped up by... by the thermal. Don't call 00:20:35.339 --> 00:20:37.319 me on that because I don't actually know the 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:39.319 science. I didn't really get into the science 00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:42.460 behind it. It's just one of those old pilot experience 00:20:42.460 --> 00:20:45.579 thing. So yeah, whenever the weather changes, 00:20:45.740 --> 00:20:48.220 whenever some, well, I guess that will be a new 00:20:48.220 --> 00:20:51.859 technology coming into play, a new company, et 00:20:51.859 --> 00:20:55.420 cetera. It's time to rebase and doing that as 00:20:55.420 --> 00:20:58.900 quickly as possible will help you find the next 00:20:58.900 --> 00:21:00.480 upload. It's interesting because it's all about 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:02.339 going with the flow, isn't it? Because obviously 00:21:02.809 --> 00:21:04.730 It might not be the right moment. Let's say the 00:21:04.730 --> 00:21:06.549 weather is completely bad. You don't find an 00:21:06.549 --> 00:21:08.369 uplift. You just need to go back to base, right? 00:21:08.390 --> 00:21:09.730 And it's the same thing with entrepreneurship. 00:21:10.410 --> 00:21:12.490 Sometimes, you know, you have some takeoff, you 00:21:12.490 --> 00:21:14.569 manage to get airborne, but then you still need 00:21:14.569 --> 00:21:16.549 to go back to base because you didn't find the 00:21:16.549 --> 00:21:19.130 right currents. But keeping your mindset throughout 00:21:19.130 --> 00:21:20.650 it and just being able to say, you know what, 00:21:20.869 --> 00:21:22.890 now is not the right time. I'll find that tomorrow 00:21:22.890 --> 00:21:24.690 is going to be a great day. Today is not a good 00:21:24.690 --> 00:21:27.829 day. It's hard to do that, isn't it? Just having 00:21:27.829 --> 00:21:31.720 that mindset. Absolutely. How do you keep yourself 00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:35.599 calm in all these troubled times? Every weekend 00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:40.079 I go on the long run and that's kind of my way 00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:43.059 of routinely rebasing my mindset. The benefit, 00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:45.819 the great thing about long run is that you kind 00:21:45.819 --> 00:21:49.700 of just get into an autopilot mode of just putting 00:21:49.700 --> 00:21:52.859 one leg in front of another and then you can 00:21:52.859 --> 00:21:58.650 afford to think in a bodily... condition where 00:21:58.650 --> 00:22:01.170 you have increased heart rate, increased blood 00:22:01.170 --> 00:22:06.890 flow and thinking and without disruption from 00:22:06.890 --> 00:22:09.769 your phone or from other friends or whatever. 00:22:10.109 --> 00:22:12.950 And you can have that space to reflect on what 00:22:12.950 --> 00:22:15.210 happened in the week, what you want to do next 00:22:15.210 --> 00:22:19.490 week. And that helps me stay calm. Some people 00:22:19.490 --> 00:22:22.470 do yoga, some people do like meditation and I 00:22:22.470 --> 00:22:25.309 find my meditation through doing it. Interesting. 00:22:25.880 --> 00:22:28.160 And what does the future look like for you now, 00:22:28.299 --> 00:22:30.660 Jonathan? What's in your plan for the next five 00:22:30.660 --> 00:22:33.259 years? Five years, a lot of things could change 00:22:33.259 --> 00:22:39.339 in five years. And what I've learned in the building 00:22:39.339 --> 00:22:42.640 generative AI products from a non -tech background 00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:47.740 is that there is a lot of unknown unknowns and 00:22:47.740 --> 00:22:51.339 a lot of wrong assumptions that are made about 00:22:51.339 --> 00:22:56.390 technology. which was a very humbling experience. 00:22:58.269 --> 00:23:04.750 My goal is to figure out a way to spend as little 00:23:04.750 --> 00:23:08.630 time as to spend the smallest amount of time 00:23:08.630 --> 00:23:11.730 to fill in all of my unknown unknowns in how 00:23:11.730 --> 00:23:14.519 the technology works. What is in the pipeline 00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:16.819 and yes, the things that I didn't know that I 00:23:16.819 --> 00:23:19.720 didn't know about. I guess I couldn't really 00:23:19.720 --> 00:23:22.980 tell you what those are by definition. So that 00:23:22.980 --> 00:23:26.539 is my goal. I got it. Yes. And with that, so 00:23:26.539 --> 00:23:28.380 the reason why, the reason why that is important 00:23:28.380 --> 00:23:30.980 is because as a founder, you've got to make in 00:23:30.980 --> 00:23:33.259 the tech business, you've got to make those technical 00:23:33.259 --> 00:23:37.079 decisions. And without understanding in the nitty 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:39.880 gritty detail on let's say, how to fine tune 00:23:39.880 --> 00:23:44.700 a model. It's hard to make those calls and delegating 00:23:44.700 --> 00:23:49.400 those tasks to, let's say, your CTO or someone 00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:51.759 like that without knowing how it works, in my 00:23:51.759 --> 00:23:55.079 opinion, is ineffective because you don't really 00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:57.940 know what's going on. It's hard to push the boundary 00:23:57.940 --> 00:24:01.440 if you don't know where the boundary is. That 00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:06.380 is something that I think lawyers and modern 00:24:06.380 --> 00:24:09.019 artists do quite well, you know, like Picasso, 00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:13.220 Da Vinci, they're all trained in fine arts. People 00:24:13.220 --> 00:24:16.400 think Picasso is like those wonky pictures. So 00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:18.740 you can paint really in a really realistic way. 00:24:18.779 --> 00:24:21.519 And that is when you saw, okay, this is the boundary 00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:25.519 of painting. And I can break it by drawing the 00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:27.759 different sides of the faces on one piece of 00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:29.819 paper. And I guess that that's the same thing 00:24:29.819 --> 00:24:32.460 with lawyers looking for loopholes of the law. 00:24:32.579 --> 00:24:38.339 And it's, in a way, in a way easier because it's 00:24:38.339 --> 00:24:42.259 because these laws and things like that are written 00:24:42.259 --> 00:24:46.039 down on paper is quite quite well defined. So 00:24:46.039 --> 00:24:49.140 finding that boundary in an undefined industry 00:24:49.140 --> 00:24:58.059 is a skill that I think I need to. Finding those 00:24:58.059 --> 00:25:00.079 boundaries is something that I need to do in 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:03.119 the next five years. Sounds cool. Jonathan, if 00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:04.359 people don't reach out to you, what's the best 00:25:04.359 --> 00:25:06.670 way of doing so? Well, people can find me on 00:25:06.670 --> 00:25:11.569 LinkedIn, and I guess also through you, right? 00:25:11.869 --> 00:25:15.630 That's always a good option, yeah. Yeah. All 00:25:15.630 --> 00:25:19.109 right. Yeah, or people can email me as well on 00:25:19.109 --> 00:25:22.049 jonathanatneurock .com. That's good. Jonathan, 00:25:22.109 --> 00:25:23.430 thank you so much for your time. It's been a 00:25:23.430 --> 00:25:25.609 pleasure having you here. Thanks, Ricardo. Pleasure 00:25:25.609 --> 00:25:29.170 to be here. All right. That was it. The podcast 00:25:29.170 --> 00:25:32.920 is sponsored by StartupSummit .io. a today event 00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:35.799 bringing together 2000 founders, investors and 00:25:35.799 --> 00:25:38.440 industry leaders from across Europe. 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