The podcast is sponsored by Startupsummit .io,
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investors, and industry leaders from across Europe.
As a thank you for being part of the podcast
community, we are now offering 50 % off all tickets
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the website. See you in Lisbon. Hi, and welcome
to another episode of the Innovation Conversation.
Now, today we are joined by Jonathan Zhou. Jonathan,
welcome to the podcast. Hi, Ricardo. How are
you? Good, thank you. Jonathan, would you like
to introduce yourself to the audience, please?
Yeah, sure. My name is Jonathan. I've built a
startup that helps people streamline their 3D
workflow, the background in architecture, learn
how difficult it is to build a model in 3D, learn
all those 3D software. So now I'm trying to help
people streamline that process using generative
AI. without having to learn everything from scratch.
What prompted you to get started in the entrepreneurial
world? My dad had been an entrepreneur when I
was little. I grew up in China and when I was
growing up for him, that was the late 90s, early
2000s. The entrepreneurial spirit in the country
is very high. Everybody in the cities are trying
to... start some sort of the business themselves.
And my dad go into the telecom business. So I
guess it's like high -tech, fast -growing, hyperscaler
unicorn -type company for that time. That's always
been sort of hanging around the background. So
I knew from quite early on that I wanted to build
on the latest technology and bring that, fast
forward that to the people. I wasn't that interested
in the telecommunication space. I found my interest
in designing buildings and putting up car models
and things like that. I used to build model trains
from cardboard and straws, which was the real
track. So that's why I decided to pursue a degree
in architecture. And going into that industry,
I suddenly understood that there is so much unexplored,
so much usage for new technology unexplored in
that sector, being very slow moving. First started
experimenting with image generation tools. There's
one called PixiePix for this predating stable
diffusion. And there was those very early image
generation tools that let you turn an image of
the summer into an image of the winter or turn
a horse into a zebra. The quality is rubbish.
The promise was definitely there. What it managed
to do is it allowed someone with an imagination,
with an idea. with some sort of design aspiration
to turn just this idea in their head into something
visual, into a visual expression that they wouldn't
otherwise have been able to, had it not gone
to, let's say, an art school or spent a lot of
time drawing things or using Adobe suites like
Photoshop to do all of that stuff. And now anybody
with a great idea would be able to do something
like that. And because I was in the 3D world
in architecture, decided that is the direction
I'm going to go. Was it hard to transition from
architecture to AI? Yeah, it was super hard because
none of the fundamentals in, say, the principles
of building a software or how the AI algorithm
works is taught in the university. That's number
one. That wasn't the hardest part because You
can just learn it from YouTube nowadays. The
hardest part is the general mood in the industry,
which was quite... I don't want to use the word
Luddite, but there is a big faction of the community
that is quite against technology. People, they're
still... There's still a lot of people that's
against CAD. People sometimes like to draw their
own plans and sections and make models by hand.
Of course, there's merit to that. There's more
of a tactile feel to the whole process. Your
hands are in contact with the material. But that
is kind of the atmosphere of the industry that
we're dealing with. There are a small handful
of pioneers, but there are a lot of people who
like the old way of doing things. And being in
that environment and being the person that says,
Okay, I think doing all of these complicated
3D modeling process, if you continue to do it
the way you do it, it's going to become a craft
of the past. We've got to figure out a better
way to design in 3D. And the biggest example
for that is when we're doing projects, you sort
of have to design something, build it out. So
you model in 3D, you see it in 3D space. before
you can show it to anybody else to bounce ideas
around on how you can edit it, make it better.
Because it's one thing to say, I've got this
idea in my head. I think the hallway should look
like this. I think this is what the engine should
be. But until you put it on a screen or on a
piece of paper to make it visual, it's very hard
to communicate that with other people. So that
process is very long. And then you've got someone,
maybe a more senior architect or maybe a client
saying, Oh, that is not what I was thinking.
That is exactly the opposite of what I was thinking,
actually. And then you realize you just spent
two weeks doing something that was wrong from
the first day. So that, in my opinion, is a massive
problem in that iteration process. Some people
in the industry seems to enjoy that iteration
process, but I think it's not necessarily like
that. And then what prompted you to launch your
own business after that? Because obviously you're
frustrated with the process of architecture,
and then you decide to launch your business.
How did it come up with the idea? Yeah, so after
I became frustrated with the process, my first
reaction was more of an emotional response. It
was just going into the dark side of commercial
real estate, which is something that I think
annoyed quite a lot of people around me. professors,
other people in the course, et cetera. So I went
into a commercial real estate company, seeing
how, I guess, how the real world works, how to
monetize that design, why people commission architects
to do those designs. And it became very, very
clear to me that there's a massive divide between
the way designers think and the way, I guess,
the industry. things. And instead of, I guess,
maybe, maybe starting, starting the business
is that potentially what's the easy way out.
Because instead of trying to convince people
who might or might not be on board with your
idea, you can build something and show them that
it could be done in an alternative way. So it's
like the, it's like that sales 101 thing where,
where it's a show, don't tell. Right. So that's
why I decided to do it. And I, and I, and I had
the skills to do it as a, It's an online business,
very little upfront capital cost. There's many
different cloud computing services companies
that give out very generous credits. I guess
they want people to use their platform to build
things. It was, in my mind at the time, an easier
path than to stay in an old industry and try
to change it that way. And this was in China,
so was it hard to open a business in China? Uh,
this was, uh, this was in London. So after, when
I was, when I was about 14, I moved from, moved
from China to, uh, to the UK and then been here.
Yeah. I've been here for almost 10 years. I think
it's a one month shy of 10 years. So yeah, that,
that, that wasn't, that wasn't London. That wasn't
London. That was, um, uh, a year and a half ago.
I thought, so the first, the first ever, the
first business was one step back from designing.
and design and build buildings, because that's
a very, very ambitious goal. So I took a step
back and thought, okay, something that needs
to fulfill a user's brief, something that's visually
pleasing, something that is three -dimensional,
something that can be produced easily, and doesn't
need to satisfy planning regulations, fire regulations,
structural engineering constraints, and things
like that. And the target I found was accessories,
jewelry. It follows very similar process, but
with a lot less legislative and usage related
constraints. So, you know, someone, someone has
a design for something three dimensional. You
can, you design it for them. You iterate through
the process and you produce it. So yes, you can,
you can 3d print buildings, but it's very capital
intensive and it's a, and it's not a 3d print,
it's not a portable size 3d printer that you
bring around construction sites and you print
it. And also they're not quite big. I mean, they're
not going to be huge, right? I know you can treat
the print houses, but they're not going to be
huge, right? They're going to be small family
houses. Yes, or unless you want to build a massive
printing machine or a workflow that kind of has
to be bigger than the actual building that they're
doing. It doesn't quite make sense yet. Jewelry
was the thing that made sense for me. Accessories.
So what we did was we designed a web app that
let people chat to a virtual designer system,
which helps them refine their ideas. So that
is a big thing. When you give someone a tool
that let them turn their imagination into reality,
and you just ask them to type in a text prompt,
it's almost like pointing a camera on the street
at someone and say, hey, let's do an interview.
don't go black. It's not because they have nothing
interesting to say, but because that pressure
and that suddenness doesn't get the best out
of people. So what we did was we had a design
assistant that goes back and forth, have a conversation
with this person thinking, okay, why have you
got this design? What kind of details are you
looking for, et cetera? And then come up with
a, I guess, attempt to get as much out of...
as much out of the designer, the human designer
or user as possible. And we generate a 3D model,
iterate through different versions, change different
bits, and then we 3D print them in different
materials, from resin, silver, stainless steel,
to other precious metal like gold. And what was
the biggest challenge, you know, launching that
business? That business is kind of like a couple
of different business. or in the same place.
It was too complicated. And it was challenging
because it's like running a software company,
running a jewelry business, and running a 3D
print shop all at the same time. And you've got
to be able to run all those three businesses
all as startups, not as well -oiled machines
in order for this to be successful. So that was
really challenging. And we had a very, very small
team, two people. That was the best part. Yeah,
that was hard. Two people with bootstrapped funding.
So that was hard. But what we figured out from
that process is that people want to have ideas,
want to design their own thing. And we can help
them make that process easier. And it could be
in the jewelry industry. It could be in other
industries. So we decided to pivot into helping
people. automate or make simpler their existing
process instead of creating a new process in
itself. In hindsight, I was too ambitious of
a goal to start with, even though at the time
it sounded easier than changing existing workflow.
So right now. Yeah. I'm just curious, what were
you saying to yourself? Like you're getting all
this feedback. Obviously it's not, it's not the
ideal feedback. It's not the one you want to
have. And what were you saying to yourself? Like
what kept you motivated? What kept you keeping
pushing forward? What kept me... fishing forwards
with a friend of mine once told me that if you
know that you're a hundred no's away from a yes,
what would you do? Yeah. Yeah. I didn't really
answer. No, it wasn't expecting an answer. It's
a rhetorical question. And the answer would be
you go full steam ahead and try different things.
You try a hundred wrong things and you finally
get a yes. And that's sort of what happened to
us. We found some successes in the marketing
industry. We, after speaking serendipitously,
in fact, speaking to a couple advertising agencies
that are doing ads in 3D space. So one of those
massive screens you see on Trafalgar Square,
Times Square, with like the product turning into
a 3D model, comes out of the screen, spins around
and coming back in. So we chatted with them.
They told us about the bottleneck, which was
their outreach program. They used to hire design
as 3D modelers to model out the products, model,
render a nice video and use that as a mockup
to send to prospective customers, people who
are not yet paying them. And they have a throughput
about one mockup per day per designer. And they
can't really justify spending more money on hiring
more people because they can't guarantee an income
from those prospective clients. They've got a
limited marketing budget. And we came in and
say, OK, how about we automate that process?
We know our final model, our rendering, is not
going to be as good as the best human 3D designers,
which you have. But we know that it's going to
be quicker than them. And you don't need 100
% quality for your mockups. that could be your
first layer of figuring out if a brand or a company
is even interested in going in to do any sort
of collaboration. And they loved it. And now
they've gotten rid of their outreach bottleneck.
This is one of those examples where I think persistence
and persistence whilst open to trying different
things and looking at adjacent industries is
super important in an early stage startup when
the idea is still fluid. What would you say to
your younger self, like yourself like two years
ago when you're just launching the business?
I would say spend some time building a team first
and then figure out the product and then figure
out what's the market and then figure out what
you want to build because having Having a team
that works in the same pace as you, that understands
each other's strengths and weaknesses, understands
each other's approach, would be really beneficial
in the build and launch phase of the project.
And if you can iron that out, you can ship products
a lot quicker. And that was something I didn't
do at the beginning. Was it hard finding a team
to work with you? It's hard because it's a...
It's hard, in my opinion, because it's quite
a niche industry. Not everybody understands what
this whole 3D business is all about. And it's
also not one of those businesses that has already
identified a very clear market gap with sort
of a solution already in mind to fix it. Example
like Revolut. It becomes a game of finding other
like -minded people in a small subset of available
entrepreneurs out there. Nowadays, what do you
do when times get rough? How do you keep pushing
forward? But most important, how do you keep
yourself in balance? Yeah. I don't really think
about that because I think I'm naturally quite
an optimistic person. I'm naturally quite a happy
person. All of these drawbacks, it's not using
the American terms, it's not my first rodeo.
It's not the first time someone said no, or the
first time someone said nasty things. I remember
when we were doing market research, when we were
reaching out to BD artists, 3D print shops, and
people like that on Etsy who are offering bespoke
3D accessories. One of the people there said,
I'm not going to swear on your podcast, but basically
a very nasty swear word and said, don't use,
we're not interested in all of any of this AI
stuff. And don't you dare use my models to train
AI bots. The reaction is quite emotional, which
is understandable. People are worried about this.
I know you also have on your LinkedIn saying
you're a glider pilot. So how much of inspiration
do you take from your glider pilot expertise?
Because it's all about going with the flow, isn't
it, when you're gliding? I mean, you need to
catch the hot air currents, you need to sustain
the air as long as possible, and you also need
to land safely. So how much do you take from
that and just apply it to business? So in gliding,
what you have to do is, so the type of gliding
I did was, it's one of the sail planes. So it's
a plane without an engine. You have a tractor
that winches you up to about a thousand feet.
And then if you're lucky, you find, you find
some sort of uplift, a thermal they call it.
And then you try to stay there as long as possible,
get as much altitude as possible, and then glide
somewhere else to find, to find another one of
its uplifts. The trick to gliding is that you've
got to know when to stop. You've got to know
when to stop looking for those thermals. You've
got to see when your altitude balance is low
and come back to base. The aerodrome that I was
flying out of was on a cliff. It was about 200
feet above the fields around it. And people have,
before my time in that gliding club, people have
ended up sort of landing in the cornfields or
wheat fields that's under the cliff because they
were looking too much directly underneath them
instead of in the airfield. And that for me was
the lesson of you got to know where you started,
where you want to end up, and know when to rebase
yourself. because if you can't find, if you can't
find one of those uplifts, you've got to come
back to base and then get winched up again. And
then, and then you can, and then you can do it.
And instead of, and for me, that was instead
of drifting away with this whole curary accessories
idea, it's more of, okay, going back to the drawing
board. My goal is to make 3d design process easier.
What else can I do there? And then do it again.
And now we're, I guess, taking the metaphor of
Now we're finding some thermals. It's nowhere
near guaranteed that that will continue, like
any sort of weather events. And if that continues,
great, we'll keep going higher. And we'll use
the experience resources acquired and go find
a thermal in an adjacent piece of cloud. Usually
it's under the cloud. So usually clouds are sort
of propped up by... by the thermal. Don't call
me on that because I don't actually know the
science. I didn't really get into the science
behind it. It's just one of those old pilot experience
thing. So yeah, whenever the weather changes,
whenever some, well, I guess that will be a new
technology coming into play, a new company, et
cetera. It's time to rebase and doing that as
quickly as possible will help you find the next
upload. It's interesting because it's all about
going with the flow, isn't it? Because obviously
It might not be the right moment. Let's say the
weather is completely bad. You don't find an
uplift. You just need to go back to base, right?
And it's the same thing with entrepreneurship.
Sometimes, you know, you have some takeoff, you
manage to get airborne, but then you still need
to go back to base because you didn't find the
right currents. But keeping your mindset throughout
it and just being able to say, you know what,
now is not the right time. I'll find that tomorrow
is going to be a great day. Today is not a good
day. It's hard to do that, isn't it? Just having
that mindset. Absolutely. How do you keep yourself
calm in all these troubled times? Every weekend
I go on the long run and that's kind of my way
of routinely rebasing my mindset. The benefit,
the great thing about long run is that you kind
of just get into an autopilot mode of just putting
one leg in front of another and then you can
afford to think in a bodily... condition where
you have increased heart rate, increased blood
flow and thinking and without disruption from
your phone or from other friends or whatever.
And you can have that space to reflect on what
happened in the week, what you want to do next
week. And that helps me stay calm. Some people
do yoga, some people do like meditation and I
find my meditation through doing it. Interesting.
And what does the future look like for you now,
Jonathan? What's in your plan for the next five
years? Five years, a lot of things could change
in five years. And what I've learned in the building
generative AI products from a non -tech background
is that there is a lot of unknown unknowns and
a lot of wrong assumptions that are made about
technology. which was a very humbling experience.
My goal is to figure out a way to spend as little
time as to spend the smallest amount of time
to fill in all of my unknown unknowns in how
the technology works. What is in the pipeline
and yes, the things that I didn't know that I
didn't know about. I guess I couldn't really
tell you what those are by definition. So that
is my goal. I got it. Yes. And with that, so
the reason why, the reason why that is important
is because as a founder, you've got to make in
the tech business, you've got to make those technical
decisions. And without understanding in the nitty
gritty detail on let's say, how to fine tune
a model. It's hard to make those calls and delegating
those tasks to, let's say, your CTO or someone
like that without knowing how it works, in my
opinion, is ineffective because you don't really
know what's going on. It's hard to push the boundary
if you don't know where the boundary is. That
is something that I think lawyers and modern
artists do quite well, you know, like Picasso,
Da Vinci, they're all trained in fine arts. People
think Picasso is like those wonky pictures. So
you can paint really in a really realistic way.
And that is when you saw, okay, this is the boundary
of painting. And I can break it by drawing the
different sides of the faces on one piece of
paper. And I guess that that's the same thing
with lawyers looking for loopholes of the law.
And it's, in a way, in a way easier because it's
because these laws and things like that are written
down on paper is quite quite well defined. So
finding that boundary in an undefined industry
is a skill that I think I need to. Finding those
boundaries is something that I need to do in
the next five years. Sounds cool. Jonathan, if
people don't reach out to you, what's the best
way of doing so? Well, people can find me on
LinkedIn, and I guess also through you, right?
That's always a good option, yeah. Yeah. All
right. Yeah, or people can email me as well on
jonathanatneurock .com. That's good. Jonathan,
thank you so much for your time. It's been a
pleasure having you here. Thanks, Ricardo. Pleasure
to be here. All right. That was it. The podcast
is sponsored by StartupSummit .io. a today event
bringing together 2000 founders, investors and
industry leaders from across Europe. As a thank
you for being part of the podcast community,
we are now offering 50 % off all tickets by using
the code podcast in all capitals on the website.
See you in Lisbon.