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to another episode of the Innovation Conversation.
Today we are joined by Tash Rebuck. Welcome to
the podcast, Tash. Thanks so much Riccardo, I'm
really excited to be here. It's a pleasure having
you here. Tash, I know you have an amazing story
to tell the audience. So would you please like
to introduce yourself to the audience? Absolutely.
So if you can't tell, I am born and bred in London
and I always grew up being absolutely desperate
to be an actor and eventually realized that I
would like to move out of my parents' home. So
I took up a very adaptable and similar career,
which is sales. divulge more into my story, but
in the shorthand, I'm now a sales consultant.
I do coaching, advice, and training, and that's
what I do. I love helping people fall in love
with sales. Interesting. The sales, obviously
my background is also in sales. So we both know
sales is actually quite scary most of the time.
And I think for a lot of the audience listening
to this and first time entrepreneurs just starting
the business to actually go out and talk about
their business and what they're building. It's
really, really scary because you don't want to
hear your nose. So how did you, I guess, took
the knowledge and the expertise you had as an
actor from you hear nose literally all the time,
right? Into sales, how was the process like?
Tell us a little bit more about that story. It's
a really interesting one. I think that there
are so many reasons why actors become salespeople.
I think the first one is absolutely we're so
used to rejection. I used to put in my CV when
I was going for sales jobs, used to be a stand
-up comedian, can take rejection very well. And
it's so true because when you're in acting, every
single no you get you have to see it as the stepping
stone to the next yes or sometimes your first
yes and sales is exactly the same ultimately
it's a numbers game the more people you reach
out to the more you speak about what you do you
get past all the no's that will then open the
door to that one big or hopefully many big yeses
but also i think the biggest thing is being a
chameleon. You know, I was very traditionally
trained in acting. I did theatre. And the reality
is you can walk on stage, a prop can fall over,
someone can forget their line, and you have to
come up with something completely new. And that
is exactly what sales is. You know, you have
to adapt to who you're speaking to. You have
to sometimes be a different kind of person, you
know. We're not all what everyone is looking
for. You have to be able to adapt and come up
with different ideas. And that has been really,
really helpful from my acting background. I was
looking at I was watching a movie the other day
and they kind of showcase the basics of improv
comedy, which is that you never say no, we just
say yes. And so if someone if there's two people
on stage, one says, I am a doctor. The other
says, yes, and I am a pharmacist. If they say,
no, you're not a doctor, then there's no way
to go. And I think if you take that to sales,
you can actually use that. Oh, I already bought
a software. Yes. However, or yes. And I can,
you know, improve the way you're using software
or something like that. Right. So it just works.
Exactly. I think it all comes down to like positivity
as well. Just bringing a nice happy spin to things.
Oh, you're already doing that. Amazing. That
means you already know how valuable it is. That's
great news. It's just, yeah, keeping your head
up, keeping positive, even when you might be
facing a lot of rejection. Now, I know there
is a little bit of a very interesting story.
because there was a time in your life you were,
I think it was probably your first sales job.
Would you like to tell that story? Because I
absolutely love the story and obviously the audience
doesn't know that we met before, but I really
want to hear that story again. Absolutely. I'll
pretend like you've never heard it. So when I
did eventually decide I'd like to not live with
my parents forever, I looked up different roles
and it was amazing. because the company that
I found, like the recruitment company, they were
desperate for me to get into recruitment because
that was really the big sales job that everyone
was doing. Startups had just been building in
excitement and so everyone was hiring. And I
interviewed at 13 of the top London recruitment
companies. Every single one rejected me. and
I got to the last stage of every single one and
they sat me down and they'd asked me the same
question and I'm a total fool because I gave
the same answer. I knew what was going to happen
but they asked me would you screw over the person
you were sat next to if you knew you could place
someone in a role that they were going for. Every
single time I went no. I wouldn't, that's not
how I'd work. I'd talk to them, I'd let them
know I think I had a really good candidate and
say, hey, look, if I hand it to you, why don't
we do a commission split or something along those
lines. Apparently I'm too nice for recruitment.
So what does a nice, nerdy salesperson do? go
and get hired by one of the biggest board game
companies in the world. So I amazingly ended
up in an interview to work for Monopoly and what
we did there was make bespoke editions of board
games and It was such an incredible experience
because we were almost seen as this team that
we were in, we were like the specialist sales
agents because we made limited edition versions
of games. So you might go to a football club
who's just won the league and get them to make,
you know, 5 ,000 editions of their championship.
monopoly round or you might go to a comic book
and say why not make for your 10th anniversary
a pack of top trumps where you've got all the
characters and that was really really interesting
because you got to work with massive enterprise
companies building things that were really fun
and different. My cupboard is just full of monopoly
boards. Yeah, and also making like city editions,
so getting to travel around the UK and make sort
of their own versions of Monopoly boards. And
I won't give away too many secrets, but almost
everyone pays to be on a Monopoly board. It's
not quite as, you know, tourist -driven as one
might hope. There's a lot of commercial. What
a surprise. Monopoly is quite a commercial. But
it was an amazing job. It was so much fun. And
like I said, I'm a big nerd. So it was a great
opportunity to marry two things that I really
love together. Are you a big board game person?
You're literally talking about my favorite game.
I love Monopoly so obviously you know we're part
of the older generation so we grew up without
internet right they wanted to watch a movie it
was the same old VHS tape over and over again.
So my summers were spent literally watching Star
Wars, The Sound of Music and Indiana Jones because
those were the only cassettes we had in the house
kind of and then Monopoly was introduced so I
spent summers playing Monopoly with my sister
getting into huge fights with her and that was
it. And then over Christmas, big classic, let's
bring out the Monopoly game. So yeah, absolutely.
Exactly. Well, do you and your family still play
Monopoly? Well, this is actually, you kind of
hit like a really sad story there. My sister
once loaned my Monopoly game to one of her random
friends and it's been lost ever since. And every
year I kind of gently nudge her. Maybe she's
watching this, she'll be like, you know, probably
should buy him the Monopoly game. Hey, Monopoly,
I really like the game. Hey, sis, I really like
the game. She never bought me one again. So yeah,
it's missing. Do you know what, Ricardo, seeing
as you've invited me on this podcast, maybe if
you send me your address, I will ship you a cool
version. I'm thinking Star Wars edition of Monopoly,
because it was our office that made that. So
definitely can send that to you. Yeah, absolutely.
Well, if you do get the board, and this is a
trade secret, yellow and red, if you buy them,
Statistically, you are more likely to win. They
are the most landed on properties. You see, I
agree. However, you can't disagree with me. This
is statistics. Statistics. Yes, I see your point.
However, because it's a square, right? The easiest
ones to get, which are the cheapest ones, are
the orange and the one straight after a go when
you pass go. And if you buy those two, people
are never afraid of landing on those two, right?
But they actually increases your cash flow very
early on. because it's the cheapest one to get
a hotel. So like, you know, I'll buy a couple
of hotels. You just got some money because it's
just best to go. Then you start paying, you know,
for staying in those hotels. So actually build
your cashflow very quickly if you happen to get
them. And normally people always go for like
Park Lane and is it Hyde Park as well? Yeah,
Hyde Park corner or something like that. Which
are really expensive to build a hotel, but a
small hotel and you keep on falling there you
know super is the bills or so it makes you win
the game in this case. This is the issue with
two commercial experts sitting down and talking
about Monopoly because now we could get into
a whole thing about really but should you save
up to make a bigger and better investment but
we won't get into all of that at least not Monopoly
related. No no 100 % not. So you started selling
Monopoly you were very very successful and then
when did you realize actually I can make a career
out of this. It can become the way of making
money, the way of being successful in life. So
I had a really interesting journey where I went
from the really old traditional world of monopoly
and games where we were basically sat at a big
old desktop computer with a proper dial -up phone,
and I had a Rolodex of business cards, like an
actual flipping Rolodex of business cards. No
CRM, no automation tools. And then I went from
that to the startup world, and I joined a, well,
ended up becoming a unicorn. So when I started,
there was 20 of us in the UK office, and by the
time I left, there was over 900 people globally.
So it was just in four years, massive growth.
And so I got to see how a startup can grow and
then was able to sort of do that myself for a
few years in head of sales and head of commercial
roles. But the light bulb moment for me to start
my own business and to actually just work one
-on -one with founders and business owners was
the last role I had. I was head of commercial
for a charity and volunteering platform. We were
a B Corp and I was just. doing real positive
good for the world, but still B2B sales. So it
was two things I absolutely loved. And I had
had this, you know, it's kind of the dream for
any head of sales is I had this wonderful team,
they were growing really quickly, closing loads
of deals. And the CTO said to me, the last enterprise
client you've signed has taken us over our capacity.
Could you personally stop doing sales for a little
bit? And I was like, yeah, absolutely. I can
stop doing sales. And then that lasted about
a day. And I was like, I really miss sales. So
I went onto the platform and I looked up to see
if there was any volunteering projects that were
around sales consulting. And there was one, there
was a domestic abuse organization that basically
was at the point where they thought if we don't
have something happen in the next three months,
we'll have to shut down shop, which for the amazing
good that they were doing was a devastating possibility.
And in the three hours, because that was what
was offered to them, the difference that happened
in their business was more than anything I've
ever been able to achieve internally. And that
was really the light bulb because I realized
two things. One is you can be a founder of an
incredible business. You can be an absolute genius,
come up with the best idea in the world. But
if you don't know how to sell it, you won't get
fundraising, you won't get clients, you won't
get partnerships, and you'll disappear. The second
thing was that people listen to you when you're
a consultant. They don't really listen to you
when they hire you as an employee. Do you know,
I mean, I'm sure there's so many like psychological
reasons behind it, but I don't know them. I'm
just a salesperson, but I do think it's something
about, okay, this is also a business owner. They're
going through it too. They understand. And so
you meet them at the same level rather than there
being an imbalance of power. It's the authority
thing that makes a big difference. One assumes
that they know more about it than you do, whereas
the other one actually assumes that you know
more about it than they do. That's why they're
paying you good money for it, right? Exactly.
Even though that is how a founder should see
their head of sales, if you hire a head of sales,
that is the person you trust. Otherwise, why
have you hired them? But reality and what we
think it should be, sometimes different things.
I actually, the last job I had, well, this was
only a very temporary thing. The CEO there, which
was a very incapable founder, told me, you don't
know how to do sales. And I'm looking in the
eye, you can't be serious. Literally, my CP,
like I've done more stuff than you've done in
your entire life. And you're telling me, I don't
know how to do sales. Okay, cool. Fine. Thank
you. Bye bye. So yeah, it's just one of those
things. It is. It's unbelievable. So yeah, that
was, it was two years ago and I just, I mean,
I haven't looked back. I really, I haven't. I
love it. I love the freedom. of being able to
work with whoever I want. I have a very nice
rule. No arseholes. It's a good rule to have.
And I, yeah, I love the people I work with. I
love the work that I'm doing. I have more flexibility
and freedom that I ever had. Like before we started
recording, I can say this to the audience, Ricardo
was like, oh my God, you're literally always
on holiday because I just came back from one.
And the last time we spoke, I'd also been on
one. And then I'm going on another in a couple
of weeks. But I'm able to do it. I can hop online,
I can work if I need to, but for the most part,
you know, as long as my clients are happy and
their engine is running and they're getting deals,
I can take a little break and sit by a pool and
read a book for a week. And I think this is actually
quite a lot of, there's quite a lot of value
in this statement you just made, which is it's
not about, it's not only about how many hours
you put in, it's also about the intensity of
those hours and the value you get out of those
hours. Cause I know a lot of the first time founders
and they say, Oh, I've worked from eight till
midnight and I do like, like crazy hours. And
I'm like, well, hold on. How many of those hours
are actually very productive? Cause if the only
thing you're doing is just like, I don't know.
It's not the best use of your time, is it? So
this way is actually very productive. And if
you're able to do that, then you can grow your
business. Then you like, you can grow, expand
and be very, very successful. Exactly. Thank
you. I try. But yeah, no, I mean, like I say,
I say to my clients all the time, because often
we'll, you know, in between sessions, they'll
go, I didn't manage to get to this. I didn't
manage to get to that. And now I'm feeling stressed
because, you know, we don't have anything at
the top of the pipeline. And it's at that point
that I go, we have a new rule then. You are not
allowed to do anything unless you are being paid
to do it, or it's going to get you paid in the
future. So don't make a workshop. that you would
give if you sold it, sell it, then build it.
That's the startup mentality. I mean, we all
know that so many times an idea is pitched before
it's built. And that's okay, because sometimes
you need that revenue or that promise of revenue
to give you the freedom to take a step back from
business development and just refocus on what
you're actually going to provide. But that's
a it's a hard place to to be because it's nice
to procrastinate because people hate sales. They
see it as a dirty word. So if there's anything
they can do anything nice and shiny other than
sales, that's what they're going to go and do.
Sorry, I think it's the fear of rejection, isn't
it? Like it's what they did a study about what's
the biggest fear worldwide. And of course, it's
like fear of heights fear of you know, you know,
getting killed in the plane, something like that.
But the fear of rejection, being rejected by
your peers, it's like the worst thing ever. That's
why people are so afraid of public speaking.
Now, for people like you and me, that's like,
oh yeah, this is safe. I feel happy here. All
the eyes are on me. So happy days, right? But
for a lot of people, it's like the worst thing
ever. Absolutely. And I think one reason is that
I like to say, you know, when it comes to rejection,
what you think it's going to be is so much worse
than what it really is. Like, take sending a
cold outreach message. You've seen someone on
LinkedIn that's your ideal prospect and you are
terrified to send a message because you think
they're going to reject you. I always say to
people, okay, what we need to do is go, what's
the worst case scenario? What's the best case
scenario? And then what's the most realistic?
Because worst case scenario is they turn around,
they go. why are you in my inbox wasting my time
blah blah blah I mean someone did once I just
connected with them on LinkedIn and they said
I don't connect with people that are beneath
me so you know worst -case scenario it was incredibly
hot I was like wow mum I was not expecting that
what does that make you say that to you only
well that is a bit wild okay then best -case
scenario is they go oh my god amazing yeah contract
deal yes let's do it What's the most realistic
situation? What is 95 % most likely to happen?
Nothing. They're not going to respond. And then
it's about, you know, the no is a good thing.
Back to the whole acting. Because you can close
that. You can close that window. Okay, now I
can focus on something else. And then if they
are complete, you know, very rude to you, you
actually it's not about who you are. It's about
who they are. Because if you're able to treat
people like that without any reason apart from
hey, can we connect on LinkedIn? It's like, well,
hold on. There's a problem with you because I
don't know about you, but I got like 20 connection
requests of people trying to sell me something
every day. I'm like either reject or if I do
accept it, I said, thank you. This is not for
me. Or then I don't say anything. It's fine.
It's part of life. Exactly. I guess people are
afraid of it. I think also entrepreneurs probably
are afraid of having rejection because that means
that their idea is not solid. And then when you
get that rejection, you assume it's feedback.
Oh my god, the market is telling me something.
No, that person is telling me something. 100
different people tell you totally completely
different things. So just go and ask 100 people,
then you can have an opinion but not before that.
Exactly. It's like people who drop their pricing
because one person tells them they can't afford
it. And you have to remind them one or even a
number of people's budgets doesn't define your
value that you're giving. You know, like just
because I can't afford to fly in a private jet
every single day or ever. Yet. Does not yet.
No, I wouldn't because of the environmental impact,
Riccardo. I wouldn't do it. You're a much better
person than I am. I'll just go private. I'll
let you buy my own jet and go fly everywhere
like an idiot. Fair. Fair, because I have a friend
who works at a private jet company and I got
to go with her on a free leg or an empty leg
for no cost. I would also love to fly again,
but I wouldn't want to pay for it. It's too expensive.
Silly waste. I don't want it really. But you
know, just because I can't afford that yet doesn't
mean it's not worth the value of what it is.
I just can't afford that. Exactly. I also think
when it comes to rejection, a lot of people are
worried about their reputation. And they think
if I get rejected, if I send too many messages,
people will view me as less than, and it will
damage my reputation. It's a good point there.
That is a good point. I don't think it will because
that just means you're doing business. Well,
okay. You just said you had maybe 20 people trying
to sell something to you this morning. Tell me
one of their names. I don't remember them because
they're not even relevant. And there's a really
good reason why. I tell you what, there's actually
a really good reason why I haven't replied to
most, I don't reply to people. And that is when
they haven't done their research and I can tell
it's very low effort. Cause we can automate,
you know, outreach on LinkedIn. We can automate
a lot of emails. If they haven't even bothered
to type my name correctly or to fully understand
the needs of my business, then why would I waste
my time replying to them? Now, if I have, if
they did take the time for it, for example, someone
says, Hey, I listened to your podcast. I really,
really enjoyed this episode with John Smith,
which by the way, no John Smith has ever been
on a podcast. Then I'm like, you know what? This
person deserves a reply and I'll reply to them.
I agree. Yeah. Personalization is so key. Now
when, yeah, all of this automation is completely
taking over. It's so obvious now, even the slightly
more advanced ones, you can still tell. I got
a great one the other day. It said, dear sir,
slash madam, comma, rebook. And I was like, It's
really good. One or the other. You're right.
You know, you've got a 50 % chance of getting
that right. And you went zero. Yeah, that is
horrible. I once got a meeting with I was selling
a film production services. So it was a film
agency slash production company. And obviously,
they leave off getting really nice contracts
to do films and do commercials. And we're trying
to get a Renault in France, right? Renault has
had the same agency for decades. They don't reply
to anyone else because it's just go with that
one. Guess who managed to get a really nice reply?
And you know why? Because the email I sent them
or the message I think was on LinkedIn was like,
Hey, I know you're doing this with them. My family
has had three Renaults. It was actually the first
car I was ever driven on. It was a Renault five.
Then my dad gave me a Clio to drive around and
it was amazing. like sex for the first time in
a clip or something like that. I don't think
I had that many details, but I've probably had
too many details of the story. And I really like
your cars. It's amazing. I know you're launching
the new model. I'm, you know, passionate about
it. I love to show you what you can do. Of course
we got to reply because they read the whole story.
Like I can connect with this person. They get
us. Yeah. But exactly. I can do that much. I
don't think you like that many stories and many
details to it. No, I mean, definitely not the
losing your virginity in the car. That one definitely.
Yeah, that's probably too much. I'll probably
add this up. I don't think you should, but yeah,
no, like exactly. I have some, some, some of
my clients, they come to me because it's not
about numbers. They've got 10 people they need
to get in front of and it's do or die. If you
don't get in front of those people, those are
all your prospects. And when it comes to that,
I'm always, you've got to go the most personalized
that you can possibly do. Send them something.
Don't do it online anymore. And so. We'll do
things like send funny things in the mail. I
don't know if you've ever seen me. You can send
a coconut and you just write a note on it that
says, you'd be nuts not to have a meeting with
me. It's so silly. But what a funny thing to
do. I have one client. They're a branding and
marketing agency. They're amazing. And what we
did is create a board where you can put your
head through the middle. And it was their faces
either side. And it said, you look like our next
favorite client. And it was just, we all, we
hand wrote notes saying, just let us know if
you're interested. People sent photos of themselves.
We're talking about the heads of massive companies,
putting their heads through this thing, sending
a photo, being like, yeah, go on. I'll have a
chat with you. But it works. You've got to do
it. Yeah. You've got to stand out. Otherwise
you're just like everyone else and your business
probably isn't just like everyone else. Otherwise
you wouldn't be doing it. Exactly. Especially
when you're selling high ticket price items,
like you actually want to get personalized. You
want to get to know them because it's a big number.
If it's a big number, you need, you know, take
your time to look at them, what they do, what
they don't like, stuff like that. I used to work
for one that was selling software and we used
to send coffee cups with instant coffee and they'll
get this really nice package with the mug and
some instant coffee. What's this? And then I
put like a little note saying time for coffee.
That's good. they always reply to you say thank
you so much for the mug and the coffee and they
get the joke and like yeah you know what let's
stop i think that's great i might steal that
ricardo it's a good it's a good one yeah the
only problem with this was i hate coffee so people
say yes i'm like i have to have coffee now oh
my god i do the same thing i say to people let's
go grab a coffee and then they'll pick a coffee
shop and i'm like i only drink tea yep done the
same Which yeah, it's a bit awkward sometimes.
You don't drink coffee. No, but you come from
Portugal. I know we drink stress all the time
Yeah, but not me say I doesn't make for some
but then it's a good conversation starter, isn't
it? Which then brings me to my next topic of
question, which is how can we use our weaknesses?
Into our superpowers because I know you know
how to do this and something that says salespeople
tend to be very good at doing it So I think that's
really interesting because what I often find
myself doing is I'll work with a lot of founders
who sales is their biggest weakness. Like you're
not speaking to me if you're amazing at sales,
unless I'm doing training for your team and you
recognize you need a great sales trainer. But
for the founders who come to me because they
literally find it terrifying, it's about reframing
it and making them recognize that. Sales isn't
one thing. It's not this one image of, you know,
slicked back hair, selling a car, you know, snake
oil style kind of salesperson, you know, rubbing
their hands together as you sign the contract.
Though I'm sure we've all been that at some point
in our careers. No? I'm just thinking. I don't
think I've ever been in that situation. Like
I would only sell products that I would believe
in because if I believed in them, I could sell
them passionately. If I didn't believe in them,
if I thought I was selling snake oil, it just
wouldn't work. And I got offers to sell, how
would you win those things when you build those
conservatories? Like double -paned glass. Oh
my God, they love me. Come and work for us, Mike.
Yeah, no, I don't really believe in that. And
their sales tactic, we're crazy. Yeah, you can
offer up to 70 % discount on every sale. Yeah,
on every sale. We make so much money out of this.
It doesn't really matter. I had that kind of
situation. I was for three months at a neon light
company. And apart from the fact that the culture
was incredibly toxic, it became very apparent
that it was not the kind of thing that I enjoyed
selling. I'm not a B2C salesperson. I'm B2B.
That's where my heart is, you know? All those
big contracts, those big exciting contracts.
Love a long sales cycle. Yeah, and also the financial
consumers is always harder because if you try
to scan them, I honestly think if you have an
ounce of decency, you don't feel good about yourself
doing that. Not at all. Not at all, exactly.
And I think actually that is probably what most
people feel really uncomfortable about because
they think that if they have to sell, they have
to be dishonest, even when they're talking about
themselves and what they really do. And so I'll
often have people who are, they're very quiet,
they're very softly spoken, they're not very
sort of pushy or demanding. And they come to
me and they go, how on earth can I be a salesperson?
And I'm like, you can be the best salesperson
because if you can shut up and just listen, and
every now and again, ask a soft but deeply insightful
question, you'll be one of the best consultative
salespeople. Because you're actually taking it
in, absorbing what they're saying to you, and
then recommend based on what they have shared.
And don't just waste their time talking their
ear off about everything you do and how amazing
you are. Just talk about that one thing that
you feel really confident about and just speak
truthfully about what you do. Because if you're
good at what you do and you're not bullshitting,
then it's not a lie. It's not a manipulation.
It's the truth. And I think that's how you can
turn those kind of weaknesses into strengths
is just by reframing them and recognizing that
not everything has to be done the way that you're
shown on TV. It doesn't always have to be the
American influence of sales. I've done that a
couple of times in job interviews. I mean, it
does work. I mean, it does show your ability
to articulate around the problem and solving
the issue, right? You mentioned, you said something
that I learned a couple of years ago, which is
the magic wand question. And at the time I was
selling ERP software and the CEO there, Ashley,
great guy. He asked that question on the first
meeting we had, like, if you had the magic wand,
what would you fix? And when you open this type
of open -ended question, and keep in mind, we're
selling really complex software, so you have
meetings with like 10 different stakeholders,
and they all have different needs. You just ask
them, hey, what do you guys want to see? What
problems do you have that I can help you fix?
Instead of me trying to guess what the problems
are and then showcase something you're not really
interested in, when you do that and then you
actually do a presentation after that, oh my
god, the results were amazing. Because all of
a sudden, like your finance guy was saying, actually,
I need to really improve the forecasting for
the company. That's awesome. Let me show you
the forecasting tool. The conversation gets so
much more specific, and also they trust you a
lot better because they know you're not just
filling the air with empty words. It's like every
word you say hits the nail in the head. Then
you always want to spend some time with the salesperson
because they know what you're talking about.
Exactly. Yeah. I always liken it to going out
for a meal. If you sit down at a restaurant and
your menu is 50 pages long, you know you're not
going to get the best meal. But if you walk into
a Michelin star restaurant and they sit down
and they go, we prepared a menu based on all
the photos you've put on Instagram and all the
reviews you've done online. This is what we think
you'd enjoy. You're going to have the best meal
of your life. And that is what I think doing
a good sales pitch is. It's hearing all the problems,
cutting through all the sort of nonsense that's
in there, understanding the real problem and
going, my solution is made for you because I'm
not going to waste your time with everything
that I can do. I'm just going to talk about this
one thing because that's what you actually care
about. I think it's one thing I also learned
was the ability to say no to the person you're
trying to sell to. because they always assume
you're a salesperson. You're going to say yes
to everything. All my problems have one solution.
The solution is the magic hammer you have. But
in reality, we should say it's actually the opposite.
You know what? I have, yes, I do have a hammer.
I'm not sure if you have the right size nails
to fix or to hammer around. And when you do that,
they're like, oh, so you're not going to try
to push anything to me and sell me? No, it might
work, might not work. I'm here just to tell you
if it's a good match and then you make the decision
yourself. Ah, okay. that makes it completely
swaps the roles and people just trust you a lot
more when you do that. And I actually walked
away from a couple of deals because I just told
them, hey, it's not a good match. This company
is a much, much better match for you. And then
a couple of months down the line, I'll reach
you like a couple of weeks after, hey, Ricardo,
I know you're selling this software, you're doing
this. Let me introduce you to this guy. He actually
has a need, which I think you can actually fulfill.
Yeah, awesome, cool. Absolutely. Yeah. I always,
you know, used to say I'll be the most honest
sales person you sit down with because I'll tell
you if we're not going to work together. And
it's the same with some of my clients. I will
either like fire them or never start in the beginning
because if I can tell that we're not going to
mesh or I'm not going to be able to provide you
what you need, I don't want to waste your time.
I don't want to waste my time. And so let's just
stay connected, have a nice relationship, but
never have to go down that specific road. And
people are surprised when you reject them, but
you know, it's nice. It's not something I've
been able to do very much in my life. I've only
ever been rejected. I feel very powerful. Come
on. But I think it actually works in dating as
well. People don't realize that. It's not a one
size fits all type of thing. It's like, who would
be a good match? And then if they're not a good
match, if you just say, you're not going to be
a good match. Why? Well, because you're a six
foot tall Swedish supermodel and whilst I do
appreciate the extra height to reach, you know,
in the kitchen cabinet, I don't think it's really
going to work because I really don't like that
rotten fish you guys eat in the tin can. When
you say that, you're like, oh wow. Obviously,
I might think twice about rotten fish if it's
a Swedish supermodel, but... What's really funny,
Ricardo, is I'm married to a Swedish woman! No
way! That is actually, okay, that is a clue why
you're going Sweden then. Okay, interesting.
That's so funny! But they don't eat the fish.
Yeah, they do eat the fish. You know what I'm
talking about? The thin ones. The strumming,
yeah. Yeah, that's a bit... Although I do like
the amounts of licorice that everyone in Nordics
eats. But do you like licorice? I can bring some
back for you. I'm not a big fan but... It stands
for licorice. I think... Okay. So we in Portugal,
they have this... all the shopping centers have
this candy shop and the licorice box is always
full because no one ever buys licorice apart
from me apparently every time I go there. So
I just absolutely love licorice. Okay, I'm gonna
come back with some really strong licorice for
you. I like the salt bombs, you know the salt
bombs you put in your mouth and it explodes.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I know exactly what I'm getting
here. Thank you. I love them. Once I was in this
company and this, my colleague Alex, he's Danish
and every time we went to our home countries,
we bring something. I brought some pistachios,
he brought some salt bombs. No one, 30 people,
no one ate them apart from me. So I was like,
the rest of the month just me eating them, loving
it. It was amazing. They're so strong, I can't
have them. Literally every couple of months or
year, really. I'll try them because I always
want to enjoy it. The salt alone blows my head
off. I can't even get to the licorice flavor.
Interesting. They're good in the cold day though.
If you're walking like in there's like snowy
conditions or something like that, they actually,
I think they elevated your heart rate. So that's
actually quite good. That's probably why the
Swedes like them then. Probably. Yeah, there's
just a little boost. There you go. But yeah,
completely off topic. Yeah, absolutely. Speaking
of topics. What advice, or going back to topic,
what advice would you give to entrepreneur that
they're launching their business, they don't
really know how to do sales? What would you tell
them to do? So I would give them my three golden
rules of sales. The first is to be positive because
whatever you're about to do is going to be tough.
You're going to get rejected. You're going to
have bad news. And so keeping a positive mindset
is hands down the most important thing that you
can do. The second thing is being persistent.
It's what everyone shies away from. It's why
we've talked about rejection, but sales is about
persistence. People don't respond to a first
message. In fact, I think it's something ridiculous.
Like 80 % of contracts get signed after five
follow ups. So if you're going to fight, like
no one will fight for your business as hard as
you will. And so you've got to be persistent.
And then the third thing is really the only way
you can do the first two, which is to be brave.
You have got to push yourself out of your comfort
zone. It doesn't have to be massively. You don't
have to do things you don't morally agree with,
but you have to push yourself because only then
are you going to grow and achieve something.
And whenever I say that, I always say, as a challenge,
if right now, hearing that, there's a voice in
your head going, oh, yeah, that is that person
I've been avoiding calling, or that is that email
I've been not sending. Just go do it. Go see
what happens. And if you get a contract, 10 %
commission. But that's the thing. It's about
the ability to... I think actors actually get
this really, really well. to be judged and to
make mistakes and to make mistakes in public,
right? Because when you go on stage or before
the opening night, you make so much mistakes
in the way you interpret that character and the
way they should speak, the way they should move,
are they like higher pitch, lower pitch, should
they speak, you know, so many different things
that getting that feedback can either destroy
you or build you up. But as long as you assume
that as a salesperson or as a CEO or as a founder,
you're learning what works, what doesn't work.
And that person selling is different than who
you are in your intimate moments. That's completely
fine. Like if you're on a shirt, okay, this is
my sales shirt. Technically, this is my podcast
shirt. Well, clearly me too. I mean, I got the
memo. It's blue podcast shirt. But that's the
thing. You put on this, it's like, okay, podcast
mode on. Cool. And you know, the mindset completely
swaps. But if I'm wearing, I don't know, a tank
top or is it tank top, the men wear tank top,
slivvish? Q -cap, you can wear whatever you want.
But yeah. Is this how you call it? Slivvish top,
I guess. Then probably shouldn't be doing a podcast
because it's like still relaxed mode. Not really
the type of podcast we want. But yeah. Yeah,
absolutely. Tez, as we're nearing the end of
the podcast, if people want to reach out to you,
what's the best way of doing so? So, best thing
that they can do is either find me on LinkedIn,
I'm really active there and it's just... I think
I'm the only Tash Rebuck on LinkedIn, but you
can challenge me on that if I'm wrong. Or you
can come and visit my website. I've actually
just redone it. So please go and enjoy. It's
trsalesconsultancy .co .uk. And you can reach
out to me there. Book 30 minutes free. We chat
through your business, see if I can help. Like
we were saying, only if I'm the right fit. But
yeah, anyone who resonated with it, I'd love
to hear from you. Sounds good. Thanks. Thank
you so much for your time. It's been an absolute
pleasure. Thank you for having me. The podcast
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