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to another episode of the Innovation Conversation.
Today we are joined by Tovid Nyser. Tovid, welcome
to the podcast. Hey recorder, great thing here.
It's a pleasure having you here, Sylvia. Sylvia,
would you like to introduce yourself to the audience,
please? Okay. Very short. I'm a business storyteller,
which means that I help companies and founders,
mostly tech companies, tell their story communicated
to the world, to the audience in a way that's
clear, memorable, creative, out of the box. They
can do that internally. They should do that internally
and externally. to get the eyeballs of their
investors and their buyers and stakeholders as
well as their employees. Anyone there who understands
better what the story is feel more mission -driven
and connected to the values of the company. And
how do we get started? Wow. So ages ago, I started
as a journalist. I'm a curious person. I like
asking questions. I like digging into data and
stories and finding out the goal. Then I caught
up with the startup bug. So I got into this industry
back in Tel Aviv. The last thing was working
for a hardware company. I was the only one who's
not into tech, but more into marketing and story
and the soft skills. There were more physics
and mechanics and engineers. So I had the whole
place for myself to play. and stand up with out
-of -the -box IDs. That company sold and then
I decided to go back to entrepreneurship and
do my own thing, which is the consulting boutique.
So today I advise company, I sit on boards of
startup companies, I'm an EIR, entrepreneur in
residence, and also... expert in residence to
different abbreviations, same letters, different
innovation hubs in Canada, and I do workshops
and consulting for different companies. It hits
upon something that I think most people don't
realize, but how important is it for an entrepreneur,
for a startup to tell their story correctly and
to be able to connect with the audience or the
customers on that deep emotional level? I'm thinking
companies like Apple, for example, a couple years
ago launched a campaign, I'm a Mac, I'm a PC.
And all that man was that the whole generation
of millennials was like, oh, actually, I'm more
of a Mac myself than a PC. I'm not that traditional,
boring office job type individual. Actually,
I'm more entrepreneur, crazy person. I like wearing
jeans and a T -shirt. And that's how I want to,
you know, rock up to the world. How important
is that for Sara? It's my prerogative because
I'm your guest today. I would say it's number
one. There's nothing more important than conveying
what you do in a clear way to get people understand,
hear, care, connect. And we have to have that.
We can add more technology and AI is taking over
and we hear that and companies embrace that AI
buzzword or actually embrace that technology.
But down the road. Companies, founders, when
they're in the garage, just one person, two founders,
they have to sell. They have to speak. They have
to understand the pain points of their users
before designing or creating a solution. If they
don't speak with them, I go back to my journalist
days, journalism. Um, I had to go and speak with
people. on the ground have boots on the ground
and listen to them and then come up with a story
so you can really force it so if you're in a
garage mode amazing but you have to step out
to understand if this really solves the problem
what's the problem how would you later sell it
how would you communicate that if you go on conference
on stage why would people listen to you and not
the others why should they spend the time in
front of you and not in front of their screens
Everything has to be very clear. And you competing
over something that's the most expensive asset
that people have and will never get back, which
is their time. So it has to really touch a spot.
It has to make something move within those people
who listen to you. And how do you transform a
technical founder, a technical entrepreneur into
a good storyteller. So it's not a transformation
that someone stops being that geek who is interested
in wires and combinations and code, but it's
finding what's his passion or her passion and
then conveying that. Because when you see a person
speak about what they love, there's a spark and
their eyes just open. I remember a few months
ago I worked with his founder and I'm sorry not
naming names that was so boring so boring and
then I kept asking questions trying to keep my
eyes open and there was this barometer of a pillow
you know when is the pillow coming out and supporting
me but at one point I asked this question and
he realized something And then he started telling
me a story of, you know, the inception, why,
what happened. And then suddenly had this huge
smile on his face. So I was curious and then
he got my attention. I was more willing to listen,
more willing to wait for, for even, you know,
he forgot a word. He was slow, but then there
is something in the communication that changed.
So he's still the same person. He's not a fast
speaker. He's not very articulate maybe, but
when you have a connection between human beings,
when there are emotions coming out and you see
why they're doing what they're doing. They don't
need a lot of words to convey that and magnet
people to them. So I don't promise you that people
are different, but I help them find out what
makes them so happy and passionate about what
they do and crystallize it. Take the fluff off,
away, start with something captivating with a
hook. I just finished a call with a few founders
now and they're doing something amazing, super
needed, but their pitch... was overburdened with
so many facts and there was no clear order. It
didn't have, it didn't start with the beginning.
It started somewhere. There were so many flaws,
not flaws, but the mistakes that usually are
being done and being made by founders because
this is not natural for everyone. And I guided
them step by step and started by asking, what
was that moment that you decided to throw your
job? and solve a problem you saw during that
job. And don't just tell me, this is the money
we're raising, this is a huge opportunity, this
is the SAM and the TAM and, you know, all these
buzzwords and figures that we need to show. No.
Tell me why you're doing what you're doing. How
would it touch me? How would it influence and
improve my life? Tell me something about that.
Take me through a journey of life is okay and
then something happens. You need help. This is
me. And then life is back to being great. I want
that. I'm thinking about something, but do you
think that all brands or companies should connect
with people on an emotional level instead of
just a logical level? Because I think a lot of
people, especially in technology, they tend to
think we are the best because of A, B and C.
But then when we do connect with them emotionally,
obviously our attachment to their mistakes, to
their progress, it's much, much higher. And we
actually... trying to figure out the technical
elements in more depth than we would normally.
I don't know. What do you think about this? I
think emotions are super important. This is so
basic. This is the way we remember. This is the
way we feel. This is the way we connect. So we
have to dive very deep into our motivation and
their needs. I always say there's a triangle.
So you start with the audience, then the goal.
What do you want to get out of this call? What
do you want to get out of this speech or whatever?
And then there's you. What's in it? What's that
story? What prompted you to do what you do? What
makes you the best problem solver? But we have
to think of what is the problem of them, of the
audience that you are. addressing and the audience
could change. Of course, it could be the buyers.
It could be employees and future employees that
you want to onboard and hire. And it could be
investors, any stakeholders that you want their
money, you want their opinion, you want their
time. So think where they're at. What's that
moment? What's up? What keeps them up at night?
And then what do you want to get out of that
conversation or meeting and then why you what's.
What's that thing about you that connects these
three dots? And it's very simple. And what do
you think the entrepreneurs should think about
when they're changing their speech from, let's
say, talking with a very technical investor to
talking to a very emotional investor? Like, how
should they be able to read the cues or is there
any better way of doing the presentation where
they can just look, okay, this is a very technical
person. I can talk about all the facts and stats,
or this is a very emotional person. So is there
a better way of doing presentations and just
getting your message across? So of course, like
I said, you have to start with the audience.
And if you can, you always have to try and do
a lot of homework. Listen to them before, listen
to podcasts. hear their jargon, hear their temper,
their energy, their pace. Sometimes, you know,
people speak very slowly and you're a fast speaker,
you need to adjust and prepare for that and just
be very comfortable with who they are. So if
you can see a video of them, you're not surprised.
You know how they use their hands and if they're,
you know, a soft talker, a loud talker, etc.
So you prepare and then you come to that meeting,
you already know how to address them. If they're
interested in the dry facts and that's it, dry
details, do that. Don't overburden them with
information they don't need. But if they go through
the fluff and the soft, you know, soft figures
and soft details, go there. But play it by ear.
I mean, you need to adjust. And that's why I
go back to communication and knowing who you're
speaking to, knowing how to speak with them,
knowing how to make them feel very comfortable.
That's a lot to do with my experience with journalism,
asking hard questions without them feeling very
intrusive, making the others feel so relaxed
that they share, overshare things that they didn't
plan to. And that's good because that's where
they go. People try to put some guards, their
guards up. But behind that, the goal lies. And
that's what we want. We want people to feel comfortable
enough during pauses. So we need to feel comfortable.
Like I'm saying something now and then taking
a breather. In that breather, if I ask you a
question, I should wait and count a few more
seconds afterwards. Cause maybe there's something
you wanted to say and I need to read your expressions,
the facial expressions and body language. Are
you comfortable enough? Are you sharing enough?
Do you want to share something? And this is good
for the very early stages. When you go out and
speak with your potential buyers before you even
design something, your customers, but later on
to feel comfortable enough with that investor
who hasn't invested yet. But we're building on
a relationship and it's long going. It's one
of the things I realized from interviewing so
many entrepreneurs, both when they're starting
out, but also when they get really, really successful
is that their ability to tell a story often defines
how successful they're going to be. So I've met
people who are not able to articulate what their
startup does. And that is an issue because if
I don't see what you're doing, if I don't understand
what you're doing, how can I buy into it? Like,
I'm really going to struggle. And if I struggle
to do that, I think most of the audience will.
And the same thing happens for, well, and then
you see the progression of that. And then when
they are very, very successful and they tell
their story, they are able to break it down in
sizable chunks of information. And everyone can
actually understand what they're saying, regardless
if you're very technical or not. And sometimes
we talk to people who have done amazing things
in AI and this is breaking it down. Okay. So
we build this little computer and it does that
and gives us this analysis and that analysis.
Okay, I get it. Being overly technical. So yeah,
it's quite important, isn't it? Just being able
to fully explain what you're doing and know your
audience. How can you be better at it though?
Okay, so you step out of that garage, the garage
mode, the point of view, the building mode, and
you go and explore. You speak with people, you
speak with your audience, you speak with potential
users. buyers, you work on explaining that to
different audiences. You speak with your mother,
your mother -in -law on, you know, weekend, holiday,
dinner. She asks you, what do you do? What's
that thing you're playing with? When are you
going to get a real job? And you try different
versions. So different audiences could be young
kids and it could be old people, could be tech.
Technical could be not from your world, technical
but doing something else. B2C, B2B and you test
it. You do that, you harass people on the elevator.
You know, that's always good because it's short.
That's the elevator pitch. You try and you test
and you fail and you do a lot of homework. So
you go to pitch competitions, not because you
want to win, but because you want to try and
you want to be comfortable enough on stage because
on stage it's just like being in a boardroom.
and trying to get people not bored, feel not
bored. So there's nothing like practice, which
makes perfect. We speak with strangers. Sometimes
I invite people to use these platforms like a
lunch club. free online platforms to speak with
strangers and it doesn't really feel too cringy
because you do need to Present yourself and say
something for like 20 minutes and hold a conversation
I also feel that it's really important to work
on your communication skills So any conversations
like that, which is not engaged. I mean, it's
not you're not committed to anything You're not
asking anyone. It's just speaking with new people
helps you convey better the idea and see how
they react and respond to your pitch and then
they ask questions. It's not a pitch, that's
why it's so good because it's just like a networking
platform. So different audiences, strangers,
competitions, just because you want the stage,
but also any webinar or an opportunity to share
what you're doing for different audiences. And
how do you fight your nerves? Because a lot of
people are actually really, really scared of
public speaking, of reaching out and telling
the world about their little baby, their little
idea. How do you fight that? So first of all,
sports, even just before exercise, jump up and
down, do vocal. exercises, kind of seeing very
out loud and see that you're comfortable hearing
your own voice. So that's to sports, vocal, promise
yourself something really fun afterwards. Just
preach yourself knowing that, okay, I'm going
to do this really thing, this thing that I'm
anxious about and scared, but afterwards there's
something, there's a prize waiting for me. Take
it slowly. Don't, you know, don't go and jump
with the most important speaking event. do something
small, like a community event, nothing that's
into the books, nothing to write home about,
but then it's okay. Safe space is also good.
If you feel comfortable in front of your partner
to do that and films, you know, go through mistakes
or in front of the camera, watch yourself, record
yourself over and over and over and feel comfortable
enough. listening to that, hearing yourself,
get advice off a mentor that you trust, work
on that pitch again and again and again. The
practice makes perfect. Do it 10 times and then
50 times. It's just better. It just gets better
and you get more okay, feeling okay with doing
mistakes and not performing at your best. Yeah.
I think a lot of people struggle with that, isn't
it? It's like, oh, I'm going to make a mistake,
but then it's part of life. Yeah. The worst mistake
is not trying and not doing. The most professional
ones do mistakes. Sometimes you don't even know
about it because you know why? You don't have
the script. The audience don't know that there
was not supposed to be a pause. You don't need
to apologize and say, oh wait, I forgot that.
I didn't know what you're gonna say. I didn't
know that the slide got stuck. I didn't know
that it was supposed to be an elephant now and
someone jumping in and out of a drum roll box.
No, I didn't know. That's mine. It's funny. I
actually always tell that to people whenever
I do open mic pitching. I always tell them exactly
that, which is the audience has no idea what
you're gonna tell them. So there's literally
no mistake you can say. The only mistake is you
stopping speaking and even then you can still
afford the pause. So if you need to pause to
make like a dramatic effect, that's completely
fine. Also, I think people tend to be a lot more
compassionate when they do a lot more stuff because
we've all been in someone else's, well, in those
shoes, right? We've all been in that situation
where our mouths get dry and we're doing a little
bit of public speaking or we get jittery, we
get nervous, we don't feel comfortable. Oh my
God, they're all looking at me as so... Because
we've all been in those shoes, we tend to be
a lot more compassionate with people when they
are presenting, right? And I think with time,
you can be more compassionate about yourself
if you do that over and over. Let's say the first
time was so bad, second time can't be that bad,
right? So you need to be more supportive. And
also another thing that can help is if you're
really, really stressed by gripping sweat and,
oh my God, can't really say a word, start by
acknowledging that. and bringing in the audience
to your fears and saying, this is so bad. This
is my first time here. Oh my God. How many people
would nod? How many people would say, you're
not alone Ricarda, we have your back. Thank you.
Or clap, applaud. That's amazing. That's a good
start. Just start by being very genuine and honest.
Open up by saying, I'm sorry. I'm probably gonna
flunk here. I'm gonna probably fuck it up. as
hell because i'm super scared okay and now we
start i actually think it can be your superpower
now it was a couple things like something happened
in in indonesia this week or a couple days ago
last week probably where um the uk chancellor
rachel reeves was seen crying in parliament there's
a huge drama oh my god the economy literally
fluctuated a bit because of it And I was just
thinking, well, this is actually a superpower.
It's not a weakness. Quite on the contrary, she's
just showing us she's actually human. She was
probably overloaded with something. And then
she was not crying because she was not doing
her job well. She was just overwhelmed with everything
happening around her, which is completely fine.
Or maybe because she's so connected to what she's
doing that it brings out real genuine emotions.
Exactly. That says a lot. I think it's normal
for anyone who ever tries to do anything. And
it doesn't mean I like her or not like her. It
just means that if you're doing something, you're
passionate about what you're doing, you will
have those moments. And that's part of life.
So I think it's one of those instances where
leaders recognize other leaders and we're just
saying, yeah, that's actually normal behavior.
That's perfectly normal to have that, to hesitate,
to stumble, to make mistakes, to own up to your
own mistakes, to apologize. It's perfectly normal
to do that on stage and in life as well. So yeah.
So it builds up a better communication and better
connection, human connection. This is true. She
took off all her masks. She doesn't need that
because this is what she feels and she's working
through it. She's not stopping. It doesn't make
her freeze. She cries and talks and delivers.
Yeah. I was thinking there's many cases where
brands actually screw up. And then they apologize
to the public, but they don't apologize in that
corporate way. They actually own up to the mistake
and say, you know what, we own this. We made
a massive mistake here. Let's go back to where
we were or let's try something else. Right. And
that just gives them a lot more power and credibility.
At least. Yeah, exactly. Like you tend to believe
and trust them a lot more if they own that up.
If they don't, it's like, it doesn't work that
well. I'm just thinking. Can you tell when you
meet an entrepreneur, can you tell if they're
going to be successful or not? Can you tell if
they have what it takes? Well, that's an awesome
question. And I do try and answer that because
I, because I join different companies' boards.
I'm not a VC. I'm not a fund, but my time is
as precious. And you know, this is only what
I have and I'm not going to get it back. I try
to look at the... due diligence process and add
more criterias to make my decision. Well, because
sometimes I bet on them. I bet with my time,
I go into like equity base, so I need to choose
very well. So one thing, just like VCs, I know
that with time and the more companies you see,
there is, there's a pattern. There's a pattern.
And I think that really, um, there's a projection
of who's gonna succeed like you asked. One thing,
it comes up a lot and it's not just because this
is my field. Those who can communicate, not tell
a good story, but communicate, that's great because
I know that's a marker for success because they
will be able to own up for their mistakes, speak
genuinely and candidly with their audience, with
their buyers, drive people towards them. future
potential investors, future potential employees,
all that has to do so much with the communication
skills. So anyone who's, I feel comfortable speaking
to and makes me comfortable sharing something
that I didn't know about, but it's not in a condescending
way. Maybe the storytelling is not perfect, but
they can communicate. And these are people that
magnet others who want to work for them, work
with them, go the long way. So that's one thing.
There's something about age. I'm trying not to
be ageist, but I do think that the older you
get, the more experience you have. You've done
more mistakes, saw a lot of changes, and I would
put my chips more towards these people. but you
know younger have nothing to lose they're just
experimenting they can go faster nothing's holding
them back there's a thing but i do tend to see
more success it's kind of it's a loop that feeds
itself because a second timer has more chances
etc and if you live longer you did more work
more experience that shows But communication
above and before all, age and wisdom. Immigrants
also, we talked about it off the record before
when we started. There's something about not
having a plan B and going through a major life
event. Need to reinvent yourself. That's entrepreneurship.
That's what I'll just do. Going through a lot
of changes. I don't think that there's anything
so huge on a person's life than moving country,
culture, leaving everything behind, reinventing
themselves, their social space, having no social
circles. Everything is new. Nothing to bounce
back to. That gives people a lot of... heads
up in entrepreneurship. And we see that a lot.
A lot of the major companies started with people
who left one thing to the unknown, needed to
reinvent themselves, create something out of
nothing and build up. So that gives them a lot
of resilience, all these characteristics that
are needed to go through a very long path and
road of unknowns. So embracing that ambiguity
comes from being a new person in a new setting.
There's something I've always been quite impressed
about, which is the people who did the Oregon
Trail in the US, right? They were coming in from
Europe and they put themselves in the caravan
and drove a road, I'm not sure which one, all
the way to the west coast. I'm like, this is
absolutely mental. And the stories and transformations
that must have gone through in that journey.
reminds me exactly of that. An immigrant reminds
me of people launching businesses because when
you first start a business and then a year down
the line, two years online, you're not the same
person. So much has changed. You've grown so
much. And regardless of if you're successful
or not, a lot has changed. And I think what makes
you successful is are you able to incorporate
those lessons quickly enough to keep on pushing
forward or not? Literally, I think it comes down
to this one. It's falling, being able to fall,
but mostly rise up. fast after that. I mean,
because we all go through life -changing events
and, you know, shit hit the fan. But what do
we do with that? How do we continue and how fast
and what do we take out of that? Does it change
us or just, yeah, well, didn't learn anything,
continue. I think someone said the definition
of madness is to keep on doing the same thing
over and over again, expecting a different result,
right? And then you have Thomas Edison who said,
well, I haven't failed. I just found 10 ,000
ways of not doing a light bulb, which is actually
pretty accurate. So yeah, it's a matter of mindset.
Which brings me to my next question, which is
your own internal communication. How do you balance
your own internal demons when you're going through
all these challenges? How do you communicate
with yourself? As a founder, you mean myself?
Well, as a founder, but also from your own experience.
Okay. So I talk a lot about personal branding.
I do a workshop on that in conferences and for
companies. And first of all, I want to say this
is super important. Communicating your value
is super important and crucial because let's
say you met this investor six months ago. You
were just starting out. He was busy. It was a
bad day for both of you. That's the end, but
you did connect on LinkedIn. So it's not really
the end. You have to continue and show up and
share your valuable content and your progress
online. And who knows what will happen. I have
a founder that I work with and yesterday he told
me that he knew this guy. They worked together
years ago and he was so overwhelming. So many
tests that he didn't really continue and pick
up the phone consistently. But then... Six months
ago they met he told him about his new company
and he said a good timing and the other week
that Person that future potential customer called
up and said I want in I want to you know I want
to work with you and I asked him but he said
he didn't have time to Communicate your value
and he said no I didn't have time to stay in
touch But every week he shared his voice on LinkedIn
So people see. Sometimes you feel like a no is
a definite, infinite, you know, that's the last
word, but it's not. It's just, you know, you
just have to continue doing what you're doing
out in the open. So the garage mode has to stop
at one point. Maybe don't share your secrets
and IP. Yeah, probably not, but share the journey.
share the work you do, share the progress. And
there are two things that I love sharing with
the companies that I work with. Two emails. One
is the update for investors. Another one, update
for customers. Show them what you've done since
last time we talked, what you're gonna do until
next update, and then a small ask. It's a very
short, concise email, but it's worth it. thousands
and thousands, hundred thousands dollars, because
I see it every time the founders I work with
send that email. A check comes in. It converted.
Why? Because people want to see what you do.
They want to connect to your story. So the story
is not just the tech and the technical. It's
not, it's far from it, but it's not that updates.
It's I promise to do something. Last time we
talked, look at my journey, be part of my journey.
People want a ticket in, into this show. people
who work at corporates or just an employee of
someone else. They want a ticket, a front road
to that journey of building something. They want
in. They want you to take them through the pitfalls
and what happened and the bad things and the
things you missed and that pitch competition
you lost and that meeting you came in late. And
there was a huge opportunity and oh my God, but
this is human. And this is live because these
are updates that are going on and you can be
part of. And at one point you would, you could
apply to work there. You could fund, you can
invest, you can buy that service and be part
of their journey actively, not just as a viewer.
People have to build their personal brand because
it's not just a company. If you want people to
work for you, they don't really care about. You
know, the technical aspect. I mean, they might,
to an extent, and they might want to know the,
for sure want to know how much they'll earn.
But when the salary is the same, you're not competing
over price, not with your customers, not with
your employees. You're competing over emotions
and how do people feel and that inspiration,
that huge smile that that founder had and his
eyes lit up. We want in, we want close to that.
We want to be close to that fascinating. madness
or excitement that keeps us in that. You know,
at the end of the day, it's just work, but we
want something bigger than that. So that's the
story you're telling. We want a family, isn't
it? We want a sense of belonging, I think. I
would, I would shy away from family because,
you know, when companies fire people, families
don't do that. Belonging, meaning. A place to
express ourselves, to grow. When your employer,
the founder of the company sees what you have,
you have another spark, do that. That's an avenue
you can explore. Maybe you can bring that in.
Maybe you were hired to do engineering, but you're
so good at marketing. So we'll give you. an outlet
to do that as well. Maybe start a channel, a
podcast, a YouTube, a blog for the company. Maybe
whenever we have a conference, we'll ask you,
although you're supposed to write a code this
week, maybe this is a good thing for you to explore
and speak with people. Maybe you'll bring that
point of view of a technical person, but also
a people person and blending. I want to ask you
this question. We're getting close to the end
of the podcast. What would you tell to an entrepreneur
just getting started and going to a rough patch
as well? So just getting started, kind of a bit
lost, going to a bit of a rough patch. What would
you tell them? Okay. So we finished on a high,
kind of. Yeah. So you're asking me to do that
positively. Okay. You should really search within
and see why you're doing that, for whom, what
would be an ideal outcome. There's a way out.
I'm not trying to tell them to stop or give up,
but I want them to find what's the true motivation,
write it down on the wall in front of them, on
the computer. So then when other incidents like
that will happen, and they will, unfortunately,
it's a long, it's a marathon. Sometimes feels
like a sprint, but it's a marathon. That's the
pace and that's the length. you need to understand
why you're doing that what keeps you coming up
showing up every morning every night when you
just want to go to bed but you're still there
what is it because you need it in front of you
that will keep you up so it could be that you're
doing it for someone like I know one of your
family members got unfortunately sick and you're
trying to solve that. That's a really strong
motivation. Another thing would be that while
starting the business, you talk with a lot of
potential users and you heard their stories and
you want just one of them to be in front of you
to know I'm solving that. Maybe it's the, I don't
know, environmental crisis. Think of one animal,
one community that's suffering. And if it's something
I don't know, less medical, less environment,
less values. Think what's the happy spot? What's
that happy place that makes you want to continue?
Maybe it's your co -founder. Maybe just working
together pumps and energizes you. And then, you
know, the next time it happens, maybe the question
would be, what can we two do together that brings
value? And it might be a pivot. That might be
a pivotal. point in time in which you understand
it's not the thing we're solving. It's the way
we do that. I love coming up, coming to work
with you and, you know, building something together.
Yeah. Find the why, find what you take. Yeah.
Love it. Tobi, thank you so much for your time.
It's been an absolute pleasure. If people want
to reach out to you, what's the best way of doing
so? So there's LinkedIn, Tobitneiser, and there's
a newsletter. It's a creative comms ID on Substack.
Every two weeks I send one ID creative out of
the box of how a company or brand can communicate
their value with their audience. Also, my website,
yellowbricks .net can reach out either way. Thank
you. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you
so much. Likewise. Thank you so much. All right.
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