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to another episode of the Innovation Conversation.
Today, we are joined by Molly Jenner. Molly,
welcome to the podcast. Hi, thanks for having
me. It's fun to be on this side of it. Normally
I'm on the other side interviewing, so I'm a
little nervous. Now I understand how my guests
feel. Okay. Molly, would you like to introduce
yourself to the audience, please? Yeah, sure,
of course. So Molly Johner, CEO of Spring and
Forge, we're a go -to -market accelerator, helping
startups primarily in hard tech, defense tech,
dual -use tech spaces. If you're making something,
kind of go to market and then go to funding.
And we really focus on going to or focusing on
non -dilutive capital. So how do we connect you
to government grants, contracts, and different
things of that nature? So that's kind of where
we focus. Now, how do you get started in this?
I mean, I started doing marketing out of school,
in school. You know, I was like in college and
got the first internship. You know, you just
don't even think about it. You're just like,
that sounds good. You apply for it. And then
I really liked it. And it was, it was, oh my
gosh, I'm going to date myself, but it was way
back when people still sent direct mail. Like
you looked at the envelopes and like you sent
the swag in the mail, but no, I loved it despite
that. And I loved connecting with people and
networking and talking and promoting things.
And so. I was a natural fit and just kind of
moved through my career doing different things.
I really focused in on aerospace. I love working
with engineers. They typically mean what they
say and say what they mean, which is really refreshing.
And, and I also was just fascinated by the space.
You know, it's really, really cool. And there's
a lot of cutting edge tech happening. And I think
we've all been interested in playing from little,
but when you're little, you're interested in
planes and flying things and, you know, going
into orbit and space. And so, yeah, that's kind
of how, how it went. No, no, my husband is an
aerospace engineer. So that's helpful. And we
met young, but no, none myself. No, just marketing.
And then you kind of got into the defense phase.
How was that transition? Yes. So I had the, of
the fortune, a fortune of meeting major general
retired now, Chris Hughes, who is the CEO of
The Way Forward. And we've been working together
now for the last five, six years, and he is.
wonderful. And he's got a great group of folks
that, you know, help sell and connect in the
DOD, Air Force, Army, Navy, name it right, military
in some capacity. And so we've kind of partnered
on that level. And it's been really great. I've
learned a ton about grants and contracts and
primes and subs and all the lingo, right? And
then including like, what does a soft landing
look like? So if you're, you know, in the UK
and you're trying to sell to the US military,
what does that look like? How do we do that?
And then so being able to navigate those processes
has been something that we've kind of learned
over the course of multiple years. And now I've
kind of, I won't say perfected because it's always
changing, but we definitely have a handle on
it. That's what I will say. Do you find a lot
of starts moving to the UK, to the US? No, that's
just an example. I have a couple that are interested
in doing that. No, to be clear, there are a few
really interesting ones in the UK, but it's just
kind of across the world. If you're building,
like there's so much interest, especially in
like drone tech right now for all the reasons
that you might expect. And so then it's like,
how do we sell into the States, but then also
within the States, like how are we Building like
wound care is something that you might not think
of as something that's applicable for the military,
but it is, right? Like you're creating this thing
and it's like a quick patch, right? So first
responders, military, or off -road vehicles.
We have some interesting ones in that space.
So it really kind of just depends. There's a
lot of opportunity that you might not otherwise
think about when you think about selling to the
military. So a lot of good companies. And how
do they see you coming in and obviously not having
a military background? I mean, I have a lot of
really great sponsors is what I will say. Right.
So and I've had, and I am, you know, there is
definitely a whole nother language when you're
speaking to folks who work in the government
and the military. But and I think there's a level
of like respect that comes with like, you know,
just if I come with a respectful attitude, like
people are people. And so they're like open to
talking and working with you no matter where
you're coming from. But like I said, I've had
a couple of great sponsors like Chris and Pat
and a couple others that are, you know, have
served for many, many years, decades. And, you
know, then they make introductions or you come
with them to meetings and it kind of immediately
breaks down that barrier and opens those doors.
So then it's not a non -issue after that. Did
they get to, like, did everything through Area
51 or something like that? No, but you know what?
They talk about aliens. Well, we can't talk about
this right now. It's classified. And I'm like,
OK, aliens. But no, there's all these really
interesting things you learn and you don't realize.
I mean, I didn't realize, you know, as a part
of the government and the different things that
they're doing. And you're like, OK, that's interesting.
And all the classified information and the clearances
and it's interesting for sure. So how would this
start? that obviously has a product that they
want to sell to the military. How would they
go about that? What's the best way of doing that?
Well, I would have a commercialization strategy
first. So how are you selling it, you know, to
normal people is what I will say first. Make
sure that you have that because that actually
makes you more attractive to the military. So
most of the grants that you're going to submit
for, there's three, there's CBER 1, CBER 2, CBER
3, right? And each one is varying stages. CBER
1 is essentially a white paper, right? What is
my, what am I creating? What is my idea? Are
you do you think this is cool? Sibber 2 is where
you have really like a proof of concept and then
Sibber 3 is like you're really starting to scale
and you're building this this thing at scale
for the military. But one of the things I always
tell people is make sure you have a really strong
commercialization strategy and get some letters
of intent from businesses who also think that
this is a good idea, right? Maybe not like financial
commitments, but like hey, I would use this if
you built it. kind of a letter because then what
happens is the military thinks okay it's not
just they're not just building it for us there's
actually applications all over and that actually
strengthens your case but i would say so that's
the first thing commercialization strategy how
are you selling this thing don't bank on it just
being military or government because that's not
a winning strategy it can help augment for sure
and help fund a lot of it but it's not that be
all end all The second thing would be if you
can get some traction. So if you have, like I
said, the letters of intent, if you have some
customers who want to see a beta, you know, that's
obviously, you know, important. And then I would
say, find some really good advisors. There's
a lot of folks out there that are not good advisors.
There's a lot, I mean, there's lobbyists and
there's a lot of folks out there in the industry
that will take your money and open doors for
you or point you in a certain direction, but
it might not be the right direction. And so when
I would say, do your research. What are you trying
to do? Is who you're talking to? Are they working
on things that are aligned to your mission? Because
ultimately, you need to serve the company's interests,
not the military's interests, if that makes sense.
So that's how I would say we should get started.
Do you sell to a big agency? How does it work?
Do you sell to independent states? Yeah, both.
Yeah, totally both. So you can do all of that.
So you can sell to the federal government. And
there's different agencies within that. So you
can sell to... FEMA, CDC, right? There's different
buckets within. So if you're med tech, you can
look at the CDC. You can think about FEMA, which
is first responders. At the state level, they
all have smaller versions of the federal piece.
So I'll use the state of Missouri as an example.
They have, I think, a $500 million kind of not
grant, but like open call right now to do disaster
relief and disaster funding. And so that could
look like tiny homes, off -road vehicles, wound
care, right? It could look like a lot of different
things and they're looking for companies to do
that. And so it just depends on the state and
what their governor or their mandate is, right?
Delivering on the mandate is one of the more
important things that they can do as a governor.
And so looking and seeing what they're passionate
about, there's usually where the funds are. And
so I would say from a state level, that's probably
what you'd want to do. But there's never like
a one size fits all right. So we kind of need
to change based on the state. Yeah, based on
the state and also depending on what you're building.
Right. So if you're a drone operator and you're
building a drone tech, that has a lot of different
applications. It could be. Border Patrol it could
be first responders. It could be organ transport
which actually I've seen like organ transplant
and transport So like there's just different
applications right for each thing and it's like
which direction do you want to take? Because
then you can get different funding based on like
what that's why I say it should align to your
mission Don't build it because the government's
gonna give you money for it build it because
you believe in it and you want to do it and then
find The funding that that supports that is what
I would say, you know, I'm sure you obviously
made a lot of startups Are you able to pick the
ones that are going to be successful or not just
looking at them? Have you developed that magic
touch yet? Yeah. I mean, I ask this question
a lot actually on my podcast and I talk to a
lot of startups and it's funny. I will say it's
all about conviction. So how badly do you want
this thing? It doesn't matter if you're really
well funded, if you have the best product in
the world. How much are you willing to withstand?
Because it's so hard and it's like the ups and
the downs. And so, you know, the people who usually
make it at least through year one and they're
now moving into year two and they're still like
got their core team. They're working together.
They're cohesive. They saw the same mission,
the vision. I mean, that's when you know, OK,
they have something and they're probably going
to be successful because they're not going to
give up until they are. And so it doesn't mean
they're going to be a unicorn. It doesn't mean
that they're going to make millions and billions
of dollars. But are we building just unicorns?
Like, I feel passionately about this. Like, I
think we need to build good, sustainable businesses
again. Bootstrapping is really just building
a business, you know, and so we should focus
more on that because revenue is your best investor.
And so if you can build a strong business, then
you'll partner with the right investors, I think.
Because, you know, no, because obviously I meet
a lot of people and they always come and say,
we need funding to get to this stage and that
stage, which I 100 % agree. you kind of do things
up to a certain stage. However, they completely
ignore bootstrapping and it feels like an overinflated
balloon. Where the only reason that's for the
startup is they keep on getting more funding
and more funding and more funding, but they actually
never make a profit and then keep on turning
losses. I'm thinking Uber, which is a gigantic
company by now, but they have how many years
of losses? Some of the years of losses. That's
just how they are about to turn a profit. So
companies like that. Yeah. Well, and it's to
your point too. It's like that hard place between
like revenue and like getting to revenue that
like the real magic happens. Like you really
got to work hard. You have to be lean. You have
to be fast. And it doesn't mean that people need
to starve. Like that's not, that's not what I'm
advocating. But I will say that when you get
funding, it's a little bit cushier and now you
can kind of relax a little bit. And maybe that's
not a good thing. Is there, is there like a better
location in the US to launch a business to run
the startup? Gosh. Well, it depends on the startup.
So I mean, what are you building? Right? So you
think about Austin, Texas, and San Antonio, Texas
is great for a lot of space tech. So as Long
Beach, California, think about, you know, if
you're going to be doing AI SaaS based things,
like find your community, they're all over. And
I actually just talked to a startup who is in
Detroit, and there's a thriving startup community
there focused on manufacturing and like all the
things you might think, like, it just depends
on where you are in the pockets of the states
and, and just find your people because I will
say like, while Zoom is fantastic. There is something
to be said for occasionally meeting in person
and talking to people. Yeah. No, I agree with
that 100%. And, you know, what are the big no
-no's for startups? What are those things you
kind of know from the echo? Just don't do this
because you're going to fail. Yeah, well, I would
say hiring is really important. Keep your cap
table clean. I mean, don't add like, you know,
all of a sudden now you've got 12 people who
have equity. And so if you do get an investor
now, it's really messy to like move things around
or delete chairs or like, it's a headache. So
like, don't just like give out equity like candy,
try and reserve it if you can. I know it's hard,
but that's, that's something that I would say,
because you're going to want that when you actually
do get an investor or You know, you might want
that as you grow, you know, just depends, but
don't share that out as much as you can. And
then I would say, so hiring and equity, and then
I would say marketing. So I've got 20 years experience
in marketing and AI is changing a lot of things.
You do not need, and this is probably like one
of those things where I'm going to be like, Ricardo,
edit this out, but you do not need a fancy website.
Okay. Like everybody's spending like 60 plus
thousand dollars on these. websites and these
rebrands. And that is just outrageous. Like,
especially if you were B2B and there's no e -commerce
element, you just need to have a nice, clean
looking website that honestly, AI could probably
build for you, you know, to some degree, right?
Maybe with some strategies, some marketers help,
but like, hey, it doesn't need to be a huge lift.
You just need to not be sketchy. So like if you
don't have a web presence, people are like, oh,
are they real? But if it's like fancy with all
the bells and whistles, it doesn't make a difference.
You just need to tell your story cleanly. and
be able to capture people's attention. That's
it. And so if you're doing more than that and
you're spending more on that, then that's not
a good thing. And I say the third thing for startups
is making sure that business development and
networking is the number one thing that you're
doing outside of product development. Because
you don't want to... That's what fundraising
is. It's networking. You're not just going to
go to somebody cold and be like, hey, give me
money. You want to build those relationships
over the course of even six or nine months so
that then when you do go to fundraise, you have
warm friendlies who are like, hey, Yeah, I want
to give you money. I've been watching your journey.
This is awesome. And it's not hard. So I think
that or customers, right? VCs or customers, it's
the same thing. You're building that runway.
And so I would say BizDev needs to be number
one on your list. And that's hard for some engineers,
right? We work with a lot of really technical
folks. And so it's like putting yourself out
there and having conversations is scary, but
it gets easier. That was a long answer. I hope
that was okay. I'm just running like, you mentioned
a lot of networking and stuff like that. So what's
the best way for a first time follower? to actually
go out and raise some investment. Is there any
magic tweak that you can do? I mean, to fundraise?
I would say... First time you fundraise, you
don't know much about the game. What's the best
strategy? Yeah. Well, I would say focus on your
personal brand. So focus on being an authority
in your space, putting content out on LinkedIn,
connecting to people on LinkedIn, and just starting
to have those conversations. I would say that's
first and foremost, because what's the first
thing? a VC is going to do. They're going to
go and they're going to look at you. They're
going to see what was this person because their
greatest risk is the founder. It's their greatest
investment and their greatest risk. They're not
investing in the product. They're investing in
you to make the product happen. Right. And so
it's like they're going to go and check you out.
So make sure that that is in a good place would
be my number one piece of advice. And then the
second the second one is join as many networking
groups as you can. So you have an amazing summit
coming up the startup summit, right? Go to things
like that Go to things like that and meet people
and talk to people and I will say it's not always
the people on stage that you want to talk to
Talk to the people in the back of the room, right?
Like those are the people that the lurkers because
that's actually usually the people that are like
The VCs or the funders and they're like kind
of in the back They're getting a drink like just
be a person I guess and like have a conversation
don't go up to them and kind of pitch slop them
and be like hey I have this startup like have
a conversation, you know, learn about them a
little bit because then in the follow -up you
can say, Hey, you know what, thanks for talking
about, you know, your daughter's horseback riding
lessons. I'm interested in doing blah, blah,
blah. Like that's an example, but like you be
a person first. And I think that's how you build
relationships and network, but go to those events,
go to those things, find people like yourself
who are like a networker on steroids because
you know everybody and like figure out how you
can help them. Like, Hey, always bring a bottle
of wine to the party, right? Like, how can I
help you? Don't come with an ask. I think that
would be what I would say. Interesting. And,
you know, when you're, you know, in your own
career and your own experience, when you have
like really down moments, what made you push
forward? Like, what would you say to yourself
when you're having a really bad moment? Because
I think a lot of startups kind of run into the
synonyms quite often, which is where you think
everything's going well, and then it's like,
you know, like a roller coaster. You just have
like a really Really crappy days. I actually
had that last week. Like I had a really great
day and then like a really bad like day. And
it was just like one of my, one of my interviews
one time said being a founder is like barbelling
euphoria and depression. And you're like, depends
on the day. Like, and it's so real. I don't know.
I think for me personally, I think it depends
on every person. But for me, when I have really
hard days, like I just reconnect with why I'm
doing it. And it's usually my kids or I go outside
and I know touch grass is really like overstated,
but like. Go do something like fun outside and
get some sunshine because it really does make
you feel better. Like I went outside and picked
strawberries in our garden and I was like, Oh,
I'm feeling pretty good. You know, and, and it
just puts things in perspective. Like if you
can get away from your screens, that helps too.
I feel like I can be more creative when I'm not
like in front of a camera or. talking to people
all day, every day, like when you're actually
just going out and being, it's like when some
of the good ideas happen. So give yourself space
for that because you might find solutions there.
Yeah, very true. But I think it's hard. I've
talked to a lot of entrepreneurs and they all
say the same thing. Oh, yeah, I burned out in
the first three months or the first six months
and that was it. And I was super depressed and
then I couldn't manage everything. And yeah,
I get that a lot. And the more like the more
experience they get and like people who have
done that in the past so they exit multiple times,
they always say the same thing. you know, take
some time off, go for a run, do some exercise
or whatever, just makes you feel so much better.
But it's hard to balance it, isn't it? It is.
Well, and that's why I think a lot of people
pick funding as a kind of a stress relief, like,
okay, we got funding, you know, now that'll solve
everything. But actually, it's not. Sometimes
that compounds it because now you have all this
money you have to take care of, and you have
to steward it well, and you have people who you
have to answer to now, and you have potentially
more hires with that money. So it's like actually
like If the core of what you're doing isn't right,
then money is actually going to make it worse.
But everyone thinks if I can get to funding,
I can take a break. It's like, oh gosh, I actually
read this on LinkedIn. So I don't remember who
this was, so I can't give them credit, but it's
not from me. They said that getting funding is
actually the starter's pistol. Like that's when
the race starts. And I was like, I really liked
that analogy because it's true. to manage your
relationship with investors and you see like,
okay, I'm no CEO, I need to manage everything.
It gets pretty crazy pretty quickly, I guess.
Well, yes, and delegating and you want to do
everything yourself, it's your baby, but it's
like you need to trust your team and all that
stuff. We've seen it on LinkedIn and people talk
about it a lot, but it's really hard to do it
in practice. Like, okay, I'm going to let that
go, but kind of not. I'm still going to watch
from over here and see how it's going. Yeah,
delegating is incredibly hard. That is probably
one of the hardest things you can do. I think
so. Trust people enough so they can deliver what
they need to deliver, but then give them a space
when they do make mistakes to tell them, you
know what, this is okay. You pushed forward,
not in the right direction. We still pushed forward
a little bit. So we're just going to do a little
course correction. Yeah, absolutely. Molly, what's
the best book you've read on entrepreneurship?
The best book? Or the one you always recommend
to people? Oh gosh. You know, I don't know that
I have one off the top that's like really a standout.
I have a bunch I want to read. And I think the
one on my list that I'm really most excited to
read would be Nikola Tesla's biography, autobiography.
That one's really interesting. It's a collection
of all of his letters and like how he invented
and what that looks like. I'm, I'm always really
interested in like the creative processes that
other people have, like to get to places. And
so that'd probably be, I think some of the, some
of the things that, that Outside of business
books like okay, I'm reading I feel like I'm
in school, which they're very valuable But sometimes
I think the other kind of inputs of expression
are really interesting to to grow from a business
perspective So thinking about like other people's
journeys thinking about podcasts that you really
like to listen to maybe this one But just like,
you know different things like that. I think
is are also like really impactful. So Just depends
different mediums I know you'll be a guest on
it too. So it's good. So it's like kind of a
cross podcasting, but no, it's for founders.
So it's called MaxQ. Again, if you're in the
aerospace industry, you know, MaxQ is the point
at which our rocket is safely into orbit. So
the idea was like, Hey, get your startup safely
into orbit. So kind of cheesy, but it's the name
and it's stuck. So we can't change it now. So,
but the MaxQ. is for founders and it's about
their journeys, their failures and successes.
And the whole intention is really just to connect
other founders with each other. Because, like
you said, it can be very lonely. And how do you
network? How do I get started? And so providing
them with a place to just make it easy to connect
with one another is kind of what we're about.
In managing, you must be a lot of very, very
interesting people. Because people building stuff
in the aerospace industry overall, they need
to be very ambitious, very crazy. But at the
same time, very successful in delivering what
they promise. I mean, yes, there are a lot of
folks. And it's not just aerospace either. It's
some really cool things in medtech and in additive
materials and manufacturing. And there's so much
going on, you know, I will say in the space industry
right now and the advanced air mobility space.
So like the flying cars and taxis and I mean,
just really cool. It's fun to see people. I think
the thing that inspires me the most is that every
founder that I talk to in this space has like
this really cool hope, this hope in humanity,
this hope in the future. And it's kind of contagious,
because you're like, okay, like, when you're
building something like that, you're building
for the long term. So like, we all believe in
this vision of what humanity can look like in
seven to 10 years, like, and we're on board for
that, we're building for that in like a positive
way, which I think is the thing I like the most
is it's like we can hope in something, have a
dream, a kind of a shared dream. It's good, though,
I think when you talk to people like that, there's
a dream, but also in order for the future to
happen you need to dream about the future first
right because otherwise it's not gonna happen
so if you dream about something the likelihood
of it happening is obviously a little higher
especially when you start building towards it
yes i'm just thinking like elon musk obviously
a lot of bad press recently but a couple years
ago when he went to NASA say hey how expensive
is it to actually build a rocket and it's super
costly he decided to break it down the process
and say you know what i can actually do it for
a lot cheaper and the reason why we have so much
more satellites and so much more happening in
space right now is because he just worked on
the process, right? So maybe a lot more cost
-effective. Yes, absolutely. Well, and Elon Musk,
you know, it's one of those things where it's
like, there's brilliant people, regardless of
politics on either side of the aisle. And so
it's like, how do you put that to the side and
look at the brilliance and kind of take those
pieces out? Because I think that's important
for every side, you know, because I like how
you said that, like you had some bad press, we
only had a couple rough years, but it's like,
how do we pull out the good things and like really
talk about those and look at those because I
think that's important. So to your point. I mean,
and I love the fact that he actually put a car
in space. Yeah. It's just going around. I mean,
he's brilliant. Can you imagine some aliens like
they find our civilization like, oh, why is there
a car in space? Well, did you ever watch the
Jetsons? Did you ever watch the Jetsons? Like
that cartoon, okay, I might be dating myself.
It was very millennial thing to do, but like,
you know, the flying cars. And so I like always
envisioned that that's what we would have by
now. And so the fact that we don't, I'm kind
of like, okay, like it's 2025. Where are the
Jetsons? I was reading, I was watching a podcast
today. And apparently the issue is you have another,
another axle to focus on. So obviously, you know,
I'm just driving back and forth. Obviously there's
also a vertical one and that's where it actually
becomes really really complex very quickly. Yes.
Yes. Yeah. And then you could also go to the
side. So adding another axis to the equation
just makes it a lot more complex. If you think
about aviation, you actually still follow kind
of high rows in the sky, like everyone doing
the same thing. I don't know. I don't think it's
going to work that well. I hope it will, but
I don't know. I mean, we're going to find out.
I think there's a lot of really smart people
who are talking about this stuff. And there's,
there's a lot of really cool things that are
being built. So I'm excited. Like I said, that's
why I like this industry, because it's like,
there's a hopefulness about it, which is refreshing.
Cause I think with AI stuff, which while it's
very exciting and there's a lot of cool AI things,
there's kind of like some anxiety around AI and
like, is it taking jobs? Is it too scary? Is
it turning into the Terminator? So it's like,
you know, there's kind of like that, like level
of doom and gloom that's layered on top of some
of that, which is. You know, not as hopeful.
Yeah, I don't think AI is that bad. It is. It's
going to be what we make it. It's the same thing
for manufacturing to the industrial age. There
were a lot of people who lost the ability to
do jobs and everything started being made in
factories. But at the same time, our society
evolved. We started making a lot more stuff and
actually advanced as a civilization. It's going
to be the same thing with AI. We're going to
replace all the really tiny, small jobs that...
Anyone can do with AI and then we can focus on
the more complex things Yeah, no, I agree. I
just mean that there's so much there's a lot
of anxiety about it, right? I think people are
feeling that and so because there needs to be
more education and like but it's going so fast
How do you educate? I mean, it's like education
is outdated by the time, you know You you go
to talk about it because it's like something
new is happening in AI now there's clones and
those clones can get paid and like What's happening?
I think that's actually that probably the next
step which is At what time do we decide that
we actually need to pay for clones, AI clones,
when they're doing all the jobs for us? Do you
just buy them once and then that's it? Or do
we pay them a monthly wage? Well, thank you for
cleaning my house, your AI clone. That's actually
what... I mean, that's the thing. Can they clean
a house? Can they do laundry? Because I need
that in my life. I would pay for that right now.
So it's like, how do we do that? That would be
awesome. I think there's a couple of Japanese
companies that are doing that, but if that happens,
I'll be very happy. Cool. Yes, the jobs that
I don't want to do, that would be perfect. Molly,
as we're nearing the end of the podcast, people
want to reach out to you. What's the best way
for you to reach out? Oh, sure. LinkedIn. I mean,
I'm probably on LinkedIn more than anything else.
Email is okay too. It's molly at spring -forge
.com, but I'll always connect on LinkedIn. I
love to connect to people and hear their stories.
And so that's a great way to reach out. Molly,
thanks so much for that. Yes, thank you. It was
a pleasure. This is a great podcast. I'm excited.
I'm excited for all your listeners. Thank you.
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