WEBVTT 00:00:33.479 --> 00:00:37.039 The podcast is sponsored by Startupsummit .io, 00:00:37.719 --> 00:00:40.100 a today event bringing together 2 ,000 founders, 00:00:40.539 --> 00:00:42.740 investors and industry leaders from across Europe. 00:00:43.420 --> 00:00:45.159 As a thank you for being part of the podcast 00:00:45.159 --> 00:00:48.539 community, we are now offering 50 % off all tickets 00:00:48.539 --> 00:00:51.539 by using the code podcast in all capitals on 00:00:51.539 --> 00:00:54.280 the website. See you in Lisbon. Hi, and welcome 00:00:54.280 --> 00:00:56.920 to another episode of the Innovation Conversation. 00:00:57.100 --> 00:01:00.200 Today we are joined by Yunsu Tang. Welcome to 00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:02.520 the podcast. Thank you so much, Ricardo. I really 00:01:02.520 --> 00:01:05.400 look forward to it. Would you like to introduce 00:01:05.400 --> 00:01:08.819 yourself to the audience, please? Sure, everyone. 00:01:09.140 --> 00:01:12.000 This is Yunsu Tang. I am a second time founder, 00:01:12.540 --> 00:01:15.140 also a two time TEDx speaker. I am originally 00:01:15.140 --> 00:01:17.980 from Hong Kong and now I'm building Synchro. 00:01:18.060 --> 00:01:20.959 So Synchro is an AI stakeholder intelligence 00:01:20.959 --> 00:01:24.299 tool, which is like very... tightly close to 00:01:24.299 --> 00:01:27.359 my previous job, which was about financial communications, 00:01:27.780 --> 00:01:30.459 also about stakeholder mapping for the industry. 00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:33.760 So this is something that I'm working on and 00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:37.140 I'm very excited about. Cool. And how did you 00:01:37.140 --> 00:01:39.519 get started in this journey of entrepreneurship? 00:01:40.680 --> 00:01:43.379 It's interesting because I remember when I was 00:01:43.379 --> 00:01:46.219 18, when I had my first job, I already told people 00:01:46.219 --> 00:01:48.640 that You know, I wanted to have my own business 00:01:48.640 --> 00:01:51.120 one day. At that time, I didn't really know what 00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:54.640 that would mean. And I guess it's just that I'm 00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:58.299 always inspired by my grandmother. She worked 00:01:58.299 --> 00:02:01.959 at labor -intensive jobs when she was young, 00:02:02.299 --> 00:02:07.340 and she saved every penny. She's really, really 00:02:07.340 --> 00:02:11.240 scrappy. And then later she built houses and 00:02:11.240 --> 00:02:14.539 managed to really generate enough rental income 00:02:14.539 --> 00:02:19.599 to raise me. and you know she's this very resilient 00:02:19.599 --> 00:02:24.560 figure in my life my role model so I guess because 00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:28.979 of her I always had that idea in my mind but 00:02:28.979 --> 00:02:31.840 at the same time I grew up in quite male -dominated 00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:35.460 society so I come from the largest and oldest 00:02:35.460 --> 00:02:38.460 lineage family in Hong Kong, Tang Clan and I 00:02:38.460 --> 00:02:42.060 guess I always want to do something but at the 00:02:42.060 --> 00:02:46.270 same time I was scared because you know deep 00:02:46.270 --> 00:02:48.930 down inside me just like oh you know i'm a woman 00:02:48.930 --> 00:02:51.330 maybe it's not good to stand out too much i think 00:02:51.330 --> 00:02:54.330 like in my in the traditional chinese culture 00:02:54.330 --> 00:02:57.849 that can be how it goes oh and i grew up in a 00:02:57.849 --> 00:03:02.870 very traditional society but yeah like when i 00:03:02.870 --> 00:03:07.289 remember you know i did kind of like what traditionally 00:03:07.289 --> 00:03:10.229 asian parents would expect There are kids to 00:03:10.229 --> 00:03:13.270 do, you know, I pursue a corporate career, work 00:03:13.270 --> 00:03:16.789 at Edelman and later I work at FGS Global, which 00:03:16.789 --> 00:03:19.550 is a financial communications firm backed by 00:03:19.550 --> 00:03:22.009 KKR and Edelman is the world's largest PR firm. 00:03:22.490 --> 00:03:26.569 And I felt like I did that. And when I got the 00:03:26.569 --> 00:03:29.930 offer from the LSE to pursue a master's degree 00:03:29.930 --> 00:03:33.789 in management of information systems and digital 00:03:33.789 --> 00:03:36.469 innovation, it was a hell yes. I didn't even 00:03:36.469 --> 00:03:40.389 think about it because I was just so, so drawn 00:03:40.389 --> 00:03:44.330 to tech space. And I felt like, you know, there's 00:03:44.330 --> 00:03:47.210 still so much that I could learn. And yeah, I 00:03:47.210 --> 00:03:50.050 did that. And during this journey, I found myself 00:03:50.050 --> 00:03:53.449 being, yeah, like just, it's almost like finally, 00:03:53.830 --> 00:03:57.150 I kind of, you know, I think there's a way to 00:03:57.150 --> 00:04:00.069 get to where I wanted to go. Okay. What was the 00:04:00.069 --> 00:04:02.729 first startup you launched? So my first startup 00:04:02.729 --> 00:04:05.150 very much focused on the mental health space. 00:04:05.270 --> 00:04:10.840 So I had the idea during Sprint Week. So Sprint 00:04:10.840 --> 00:04:14.479 Week is a week -long project where a team come 00:04:14.479 --> 00:04:17.600 together and identify a problem to solve in the 00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:20.680 real world and do rapid prototyping and design 00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:23.939 solution to solve that problem. So that was something 00:04:23.939 --> 00:04:26.860 that I had to do during my master's degree. And 00:04:26.860 --> 00:04:30.379 so during that time, I already had the idea that, 00:04:30.379 --> 00:04:34.740 OK, I wanted to build to solve a problem in the 00:04:34.740 --> 00:04:38.720 mental health space. and I remember like you 00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:41.120 know during spring week even though you know 00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:44.920 my first style of scene didn't come along like 00:04:44.920 --> 00:04:46.939 we work on something else that's more related 00:04:46.939 --> 00:04:49.720 to sustainability but still I was so passionate 00:04:49.720 --> 00:04:53.660 I worked till 4 a .m work at like 8 a .m I just 00:04:53.660 --> 00:04:57.120 can't yeah and I just kept going you know my 00:04:57.560 --> 00:04:59.199 I think my teammates just thought that I was 00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:01.699 crazy. They were like, why are you sending us 00:05:01.699 --> 00:05:04.660 messages at 4am? Are you okay? It's just a school 00:05:04.660 --> 00:05:07.519 project. Chill. Everyone was so chill. I was 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:10.000 just like, no, I really want to do this. Yeah, 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:14.459 so after I finished everything, my coursework, 00:05:14.819 --> 00:05:17.939 I just decided, okay, I had this idea and I didn't 00:05:17.939 --> 00:05:20.620 want to just let it sit there. I wanted to make 00:05:20.620 --> 00:05:23.930 things happen. It took like, you know me some 00:05:23.930 --> 00:05:25.889 time to be like, oh, you know, I really want 00:05:25.889 --> 00:05:29.389 to do this You know, like I think even though 00:05:29.389 --> 00:05:32.689 you know, I wasn't let's say a very young student 00:05:32.689 --> 00:05:34.870 anymore, but I still wanted to get my family 00:05:34.870 --> 00:05:39.069 approval and It wasn't that easy. But yeah, like 00:05:39.069 --> 00:05:41.670 at the end at the end we had like back -and -forth 00:05:41.670 --> 00:05:45.250 conversation and I kind of persuaded them to 00:05:45.250 --> 00:05:48.889 kind of allow me to pursue this path so after 00:05:48.889 --> 00:05:51.550 I graduated from my master's degree I just decided 00:05:51.550 --> 00:05:54.509 that yeah I'm going to do this and so I built 00:05:54.509 --> 00:05:58.370 my first startup that aimed to help people who 00:05:58.370 --> 00:06:02.250 suffer from career anxiety especially among the 00:06:02.250 --> 00:06:04.670 Asian community. Was it hard to convince your 00:06:04.670 --> 00:06:06.149 family that you wanted to be an entrepreneur? 00:06:06.709 --> 00:06:10.459 Yeah. Very tough, you know, but it has always 00:06:10.459 --> 00:06:13.759 been tough I felt like so so my grandmother went 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:16.100 through an arranged marriage Married very young 00:06:16.100 --> 00:06:18.839 and then my mother also married very young like 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:22.560 she was married at the age of 20 So even when 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:25.939 I was 23, I want I was like, oh, you know, I 00:06:25.939 --> 00:06:28.100 want to do a master's degree My feminine was 00:06:28.100 --> 00:06:30.439 like, you know, you're at the age to get married 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:33.100 Okay, so for listeners who probably don't get 00:06:33.100 --> 00:06:35.060 this, in Chinese culture, and correct me if I'm 00:06:35.060 --> 00:06:38.319 wrong, the pressure is on to get married until 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:40.899 25, right? So that's the age. And then there's 00:06:40.899 --> 00:06:43.060 like a cutoff date. So if you don't get married 00:06:43.060 --> 00:06:45.420 until that date, then you kind of get seen as 00:06:45.420 --> 00:06:50.980 a leftover, I guess, person. Yeah, I'm definitely 00:06:50.980 --> 00:06:54.339 a leftover woman now. But that is a true Chinese 00:06:54.339 --> 00:06:56.800 culture, right? I think it depends on the family 00:06:56.800 --> 00:07:01.240 dynamic. I think it is... you know it's really 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:04.540 yes i think that's still this pressure in the 00:07:04.540 --> 00:07:08.560 society but i know as a fact that not everyone 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:11.879 around me who are asian women have been through 00:07:11.879 --> 00:07:16.920 this uh situation i think my situation is particularly 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:20.800 serious because you know again i grew up in this 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:23.980 very traditional society is is you know i didn't 00:07:23.980 --> 00:07:26.420 grow up in the city i grew up on the countryside 00:07:26.420 --> 00:07:30.259 of hong kong and i'm very much let's say village 00:07:30.259 --> 00:07:33.899 girl so and my grandmother was brought up by 00:07:33.899 --> 00:07:37.139 her grandmother and my i'm very close with my 00:07:37.139 --> 00:07:43.100 grandmother so i think yeah so so just that i 00:07:43.100 --> 00:07:45.699 there's a little bit of generational gap as well 00:07:45.699 --> 00:07:49.079 and everything just come down together and and 00:07:49.079 --> 00:07:53.959 and yes i was expected to find a man, you know, 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:57.480 quite, quite early on. And I think like I remain 00:07:57.480 --> 00:08:00.839 a disappointment because I'm still, I'm still 00:08:00.839 --> 00:08:03.740 pursuing this other path. But you know, yeah, 00:08:03.819 --> 00:08:07.120 so, so, so yes, it took, it took some back and 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:09.879 forth. There, there was tension here and there. 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:13.600 And I think it's normal, you know, even for, 00:08:13.879 --> 00:08:17.120 I know that, you know, sometimes because I gave 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:20.100 talks at the LSE sometimes, and I did have Asian 00:08:20.100 --> 00:08:23.230 students coming to me asking this question be 00:08:23.230 --> 00:08:25.670 like how did you even talk to your family about 00:08:25.670 --> 00:08:29.470 this yeah so so i think things have to make sense 00:08:29.470 --> 00:08:32.450 right it's just that you know a lot of times 00:08:32.450 --> 00:08:36.230 what's happening now is very different from what's 00:08:36.230 --> 00:08:39.309 happening let's say you know when they were young 00:08:39.309 --> 00:08:43.830 so i guess like why that's the set path was that 00:08:43.830 --> 00:08:47.970 you know when they were at our age like it was 00:08:47.970 --> 00:08:50.029 a normal path to be like okay you get a very 00:08:50.029 --> 00:08:53.620 stable job you save and then you buy a property 00:08:53.620 --> 00:08:56.740 you get a mortgage but the thing is that property 00:08:56.740 --> 00:09:03.080 prices are not you know promising now so that 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:07.340 path actually like it's not that stable anymore 00:09:07.340 --> 00:09:10.419 it's just a different time and i think there 00:09:10.419 --> 00:09:12.779 are a lot of things that you know are different 00:09:12.779 --> 00:09:16.480 now and it takes communications to to make sure 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:19.580 that we find alignment i think like it's very 00:09:19.580 --> 00:09:22.139 important to remember that at the end of the 00:09:22.139 --> 00:09:24.679 day right like they want the best for you i don't 00:09:24.679 --> 00:09:27.480 know like how it's like in your culture i mean 00:09:27.480 --> 00:09:32.620 a lot of asian family But this is exactly why 00:09:32.620 --> 00:09:35.000 I was asking this question, because a lot of 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:36.480 the entrepreneurs I talked to, they all have 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:38.460 different pressures. They come in from different 00:09:38.460 --> 00:09:41.200 backgrounds. It might be a family pressure. It 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:43.820 might be expectation of their friends and peers 00:09:43.820 --> 00:09:47.679 where they operate in. And it's quite important 00:09:47.679 --> 00:09:49.940 to talk about this, because that also impacts 00:09:49.940 --> 00:09:52.120 the way you go about launching your business, 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:55.179 the pressure you feel, your ability to be successful 00:09:55.179 --> 00:09:57.580 at a certain age or not. Because if people expect 00:09:57.580 --> 00:10:00.309 you to be married when you're 25 or 23, then 00:10:00.309 --> 00:10:01.730 you don't have that much time to actually launch 00:10:01.730 --> 00:10:03.409 a business before that, right? So you must be 00:10:03.409 --> 00:10:05.409 very young to launch a business. It's quite important 00:10:05.409 --> 00:10:08.769 to talk about these things. Yeah, but it's interesting, 00:10:08.929 --> 00:10:12.230 right? Sometimes it is, you know, in the negotiation, 00:10:12.850 --> 00:10:16.129 in the negotiation process, you need to understand 00:10:16.129 --> 00:10:19.110 what the other party wants. So actually that 00:10:19.110 --> 00:10:22.870 went into, you know, part of my pawns for negotiation, 00:10:23.029 --> 00:10:25.500 I would tell them, yes, I want I still have my 00:10:25.500 --> 00:10:26.980 family values, I want to get married, I want 00:10:26.980 --> 00:10:33.019 to have kids. I would still tell them that. But 00:10:33.019 --> 00:10:36.200 in the future, if I succeed in my startup, then 00:10:36.200 --> 00:10:40.419 my future kids will have more time with them. 00:10:41.740 --> 00:10:44.139 I'll have more freedom in the future. So I think 00:10:44.139 --> 00:10:47.899 it's very important to also not just be like, 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:53.080 okay, I want to do this, or just because... because 00:10:53.080 --> 00:10:56.179 it's something that I want to do. I think it's 00:10:56.179 --> 00:10:59.139 always communications and negotiation. Yeah. 00:10:59.279 --> 00:11:01.019 Yeah, that makes sense. So you went from the 00:11:01.019 --> 00:11:02.639 first startup, which obviously was a big shock 00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:04.940 for the family. They got used to the shock and 00:11:04.940 --> 00:11:06.720 you launched the second one. So how did that 00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:10.059 happen? Yeah. So I was lucky. I mean, it was 00:11:10.059 --> 00:11:11.899 also because of my hard work, right? Because 00:11:11.899 --> 00:11:15.279 I really tried very hard. And at that time, I 00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:20.120 won a grant from an ex -YC founder and he started 00:11:20.120 --> 00:11:24.149 coaching me. So I was, I'm really, really grateful 00:11:24.149 --> 00:11:27.129 that Ashworth, who is the founder of Steading 00:11:27.129 --> 00:11:29.629 Road, like, you know, he really gave me a lot 00:11:29.629 --> 00:11:33.309 of help. So I think that kind of gave me a window 00:11:33.309 --> 00:11:36.909 inside of like, you know, how the startup role 00:11:36.909 --> 00:11:40.730 works and functions and how like a, like a venture 00:11:40.730 --> 00:11:44.440 capitalist thinks. So I think you know, it's 00:11:44.440 --> 00:11:46.899 very important that we should be honest with 00:11:46.899 --> 00:11:49.259 ourselves, you know, you know, to really listen 00:11:49.259 --> 00:11:52.460 to data, to look at, you know, what's happening. 00:11:52.460 --> 00:11:54.940 And I think at that time, when I started my first 00:11:54.940 --> 00:11:57.360 startup, it was very much impact and mission 00:11:57.360 --> 00:11:59.879 driven. And you know, it's interesting, because 00:11:59.879 --> 00:12:03.679 I think a lot of entrepreneurs, it's very hard 00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:06.360 for them to accept that a lot of the times their 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:08.639 first idea just doesn't work out. Which is normal, 00:12:08.700 --> 00:12:12.740 by the way. Exactly. And it's completely normal. 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:15.100 At that time, I didn't think it was. I was like, 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:19.039 why? You know, like... Yeah, it's almost like 00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:22.159 when I decided to pivot, it's like I had to go 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:24.340 through almost like a heartbreak. I just felt 00:12:24.340 --> 00:12:28.000 like, you know, I got really good testimonials. 00:12:29.059 --> 00:12:32.860 I felt like my customers needed me. I was giving 00:12:32.860 --> 00:12:35.539 the help that people needed. It's very much like 00:12:35.539 --> 00:12:38.549 I felt like... people needed me. And I thought, 00:12:38.730 --> 00:12:42.350 okay, if I stop then, then how, where, where 00:12:42.350 --> 00:12:45.889 could these people, you know, go to? Right. But 00:12:45.889 --> 00:12:48.370 I think like, sorry. I was just curious. Why 00:12:48.370 --> 00:12:51.169 do you think it was so hard for you to, to be 00:12:51.169 --> 00:12:53.269 able to process the fact that he needed to pivot, 00:12:53.429 --> 00:12:55.950 that he needed to close one thing and open a 00:12:55.950 --> 00:12:58.909 new one? Why do you think that works? I think 00:12:58.909 --> 00:13:01.870 because things, I always try to do things that 00:13:01.870 --> 00:13:05.820 align with my purpose and at that time you know 00:13:05.820 --> 00:13:10.340 I felt like so I work in Hong Kong and you know 00:13:10.340 --> 00:13:13.159 I always face imposter syndrome because everyone 00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:16.419 around me was so smart it's good that I got into 00:13:16.419 --> 00:13:19.460 very good firms but at the same time I was really 00:13:19.460 --> 00:13:21.559 like surrounded by elites and I never felt like 00:13:21.559 --> 00:13:25.000 I was good enough and you know especially given 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:27.840 my kind of unique background right like I didn't 00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:31.059 go to a girl's school, I didn't go to an international 00:13:31.059 --> 00:13:32.860 school in Hong Kong, and I was surrounded by 00:13:32.860 --> 00:13:36.960 people who went to the best schools, they had 00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:40.059 the perfect resume. So I always find it hard 00:13:40.059 --> 00:13:43.639 to fit in. Again, I'm indigenous, right? I know 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:48.019 I don't really look like I am. It's just a very 00:13:48.019 --> 00:13:50.659 specific, let's say, Hong Kong thing. I'm an 00:13:50.659 --> 00:13:53.840 indigenous white -tie woman. So this is a little 00:13:53.840 --> 00:13:57.960 bit more complex right now. Hold on, maybe you 00:13:57.960 --> 00:13:59.840 can show the audience, because it's like, well, 00:13:59.879 --> 00:14:03.279 hold on. So what's the difference? Yeah. So I 00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:05.200 mentioned before that grew up on the countryside. 00:14:06.259 --> 00:14:09.740 And so my family has a thousand years of history 00:14:09.740 --> 00:14:13.779 in Hong Kong. So before Hong Kong became Hong 00:14:13.779 --> 00:14:16.600 Kong, you know, we were already there. We were 00:14:16.600 --> 00:14:19.399 one of the first settlers. So, yeah, Tang Kings. 00:14:19.690 --> 00:14:24.529 Hong Kong's largest and oldest lineage family. 00:14:24.909 --> 00:14:29.590 And I'm the 25th generation. So for some, you 00:14:29.590 --> 00:14:32.789 know, families, they are like probably they they 00:14:32.789 --> 00:14:36.269 are around like 30 generations already. So I 00:14:36.269 --> 00:14:40.610 think that adds a lot of complexity into how 00:14:40.610 --> 00:14:43.730 I felt when I was working at, you know, very 00:14:43.730 --> 00:14:46.830 competitive environments. And a lot of things 00:14:46.830 --> 00:14:50.000 are internal, you know, like I just I think it 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:53.279 took me time to process it and would that be 00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:55.860 part of the culture in the sense that you would 00:14:55.860 --> 00:14:57.840 talk with someone and because of your last name 00:14:57.840 --> 00:14:59.879 and they realize how I guess how old your family 00:14:59.879 --> 00:15:02.779 would be in Hong Kong and they will treat it 00:15:02.779 --> 00:15:04.419 differently because of that? I don't think I 00:15:04.419 --> 00:15:07.299 was being treated differently but it's just a 00:15:07.299 --> 00:15:11.500 lot of things that are internal so I didn't feel 00:15:11.500 --> 00:15:15.220 like I was enough because I didn't go to I wasn't 00:15:15.220 --> 00:15:17.940 coming from a certain background and also you 00:15:17.940 --> 00:15:21.519 know you know, a lot of Hong Kong people, they 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:23.740 speak perfect English, especially like, you know, 00:15:23.860 --> 00:15:25.460 the people who went to international school. 00:15:25.620 --> 00:15:28.940 And I felt like I was always catching up. And 00:15:28.940 --> 00:15:31.720 then at the same time, it was also about how, 00:15:31.820 --> 00:15:34.000 you know, when you are not, let's say, emotionally 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:36.700 or mentally very healthy, then then sometimes 00:15:36.700 --> 00:15:39.259 very hard for you to take feedback as well. So 00:15:39.259 --> 00:15:42.500 I think like I was at that state in in that state 00:15:42.500 --> 00:15:45.620 my mindset just wasn't very right when I was 00:15:45.620 --> 00:15:48.059 in my early 20s and I think a lot of times it 00:15:48.059 --> 00:15:51.600 comes from some deep insecurity and then later 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:55.779 I work in Shanghai and you know I still carry 00:15:55.779 --> 00:15:59.639 that with me and I think like things could even 00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:03.500 become worse um you know and also I saw how around 00:16:03.500 --> 00:16:08.480 me people really suffer from anxiety issues so 00:16:08.909 --> 00:16:12.950 I think it came from a really personal place. 00:16:13.830 --> 00:16:17.230 I wanted to help my friends, I wanted to help 00:16:17.230 --> 00:16:21.690 myself. And I felt like building a salad was 00:16:21.690 --> 00:16:25.549 my way of doing that and also is my way of healing. 00:16:26.549 --> 00:16:29.789 During this time, for example, I interviewed 00:16:29.789 --> 00:16:33.889 around 50 coaches who have more or less made 00:16:33.889 --> 00:16:38.299 it in their careers. And then what I realized 00:16:38.299 --> 00:16:40.740 is that a lot of the times when you look at someone's 00:16:40.740 --> 00:16:42.480 resume, it's like, wow, like that person must 00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:45.899 be having a perfect life. But actually everyone 00:16:45.899 --> 00:16:48.860 has been through something. Yeah, that's very 00:16:48.860 --> 00:16:52.220 true. Yeah. And a lot of times I realized that 00:16:52.220 --> 00:16:56.080 it really comes down to, you know, the qualities 00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:59.200 of a person. The people who are successful, a 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:01.299 lot of the times it's because they're very resilient. 00:17:02.139 --> 00:17:06.420 And I remember one of the people I interviewed 00:17:06.859 --> 00:17:14.960 He told me that he grew up in the UK as the only 00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:17.900 almost like long white family in the whole town 00:17:17.900 --> 00:17:24.420 of 18 ,000 people. Okay. And then we're over 00:17:24.420 --> 00:17:29.619 1 ,800. Sorry. Anyway, like basically he was 00:17:29.619 --> 00:17:34.059 a minority in that like UK town. And then he 00:17:35.110 --> 00:17:37.769 Yeah, like he he told me how you know resilient 00:17:37.769 --> 00:17:40.890 he was even though he looked very different and 00:17:40.890 --> 00:17:44.450 You know, maybe you know, like just people weren't 00:17:44.450 --> 00:17:48.130 very let's say used to his culture and everything 00:17:48.130 --> 00:17:51.390 And then he told me that yes, I could have setbacks 00:17:51.390 --> 00:17:53.950 But you know, I never failed because you know, 00:17:53.950 --> 00:17:56.490 I even though I was different. I enjoyed being 00:17:56.490 --> 00:17:59.269 different So a lot of times really it really 00:17:59.269 --> 00:18:03.970 comes down to mindset. So I think it was my Yeah, 00:18:04.029 --> 00:18:07.829 my way of learning from you know people who have 00:18:07.829 --> 00:18:11.150 been through you know different challenges and 00:18:11.150 --> 00:18:15.630 also my way of Contributing to the society and 00:18:15.630 --> 00:18:18.410 I think it's so much about okay if I look back 00:18:18.410 --> 00:18:23.910 if I ask my younger me like what she would need 00:18:23.910 --> 00:18:27.150 and I think at that time it was very much about 00:18:27.150 --> 00:18:30.029 how I could help the younger me because it's 00:18:30.029 --> 00:18:32.430 funny because most people I talk to a lot of 00:18:32.430 --> 00:18:35.130 entrepreneurs and for most entrepreneurs, it 00:18:35.130 --> 00:18:36.930 takes a while to realize that they're actually 00:18:36.930 --> 00:18:39.250 going through a lot of mental transformations, 00:18:39.490 --> 00:18:41.369 right? When you decide to launch a business, 00:18:41.670 --> 00:18:43.269 your mindset is telling you, I need to do this 00:18:43.269 --> 00:18:45.769 because of AB &C. But when you're running a business 00:18:45.769 --> 00:18:47.509 and ultimately when you move from that business 00:18:47.509 --> 00:18:49.900 onward to your next venture, there is a massive 00:18:49.900 --> 00:18:51.839 transformation, right? And you need to take that 00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:54.460 on board and learn those lessons and say, for 00:18:54.460 --> 00:18:56.099 my next thing, it's going to be completely different. 00:18:56.680 --> 00:18:59.339 So you open your business, big shock, you don't 00:18:59.339 --> 00:19:00.519 want to get married, actually want to run the 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:03.720 business, then, you know, he goes, I'm not gonna 00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:06.819 say the wrong way, but he finds it natural and, 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:09.480 and then you move to Shanghai. And then when 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:11.079 did you decide to launch the second business? 00:19:13.270 --> 00:19:16.809 So around the beginning of this year. So yes, 00:19:17.150 --> 00:19:21.089 I moved from Shanghai to London to do my master's 00:19:21.089 --> 00:19:24.269 degree. And after I graduated, I started my first 00:19:24.269 --> 00:19:27.049 business and it lasted for around half a year. 00:19:27.509 --> 00:19:30.170 And then I started my second one. And at that 00:19:30.170 --> 00:19:33.210 time, I think it was good to have my first startup 00:19:33.210 --> 00:19:36.259 too. you know, process a lot of things and also 00:19:36.259 --> 00:19:38.819 make me realize my gaps. So when I started my 00:19:38.819 --> 00:19:41.500 second startup, I made sure to have a co -founder. 00:19:41.980 --> 00:19:44.819 And I understand, right, a lot of people, they 00:19:44.819 --> 00:19:47.599 would be like, they could do it all by themselves. 00:19:47.779 --> 00:19:50.119 But then what I learned is that because I've 00:19:50.119 --> 00:19:53.339 done both, it's very good to have a partner to 00:19:53.339 --> 00:19:56.059 give you that feedback loop and to make sure 00:19:56.059 --> 00:19:58.779 that, you know, you keep each other accountable 00:19:58.779 --> 00:20:01.339 and, you know, keep going, keep that momentum. 00:20:01.819 --> 00:20:07.140 So I started my second. start up I think around 00:20:07.140 --> 00:20:14.359 yeah like like around mid last year yeah so it's 00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:17.640 very much solves the pain point that I saw in 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:19.960 my previous job a lot of the times if I look 00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:22.160 at my role it's about how I could go through 00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:25.460 a lot of publicly available data for example 00:20:25.460 --> 00:20:30.160 media articles policy announcement and also digital 00:20:30.940 --> 00:20:34.839 media sources to make sense of this data to generate 00:20:34.839 --> 00:20:37.259 insights from this data. Just think about it 00:20:37.259 --> 00:20:41.160 like when you are a CEO of a large corporation, 00:20:41.980 --> 00:20:44.259 every day you wake up you want to make sure that 00:20:44.259 --> 00:20:47.579 you know what's happening in the world that's 00:20:47.579 --> 00:20:51.660 related to your company. That would include any 00:20:51.660 --> 00:20:53.779 news that mentions your company, also mention 00:20:53.779 --> 00:20:57.920 your name, also you know what's happening with 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:01.220 your competitors. Also, what are the policies 00:21:01.220 --> 00:21:05.079 that are relevant to the industry that you operate 00:21:05.079 --> 00:21:08.759 in? Difference cases is all different, but then 00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:12.559 it's so much about, okay, how could I filter 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:16.160 out information that's relevant to you and give 00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:20.460 you that insight? And I think now a lot of people 00:21:20.460 --> 00:21:24.460 can suffer from digital override issues. I was 00:21:24.460 --> 00:21:29.490 the same. When I started my second startup, Originally, 00:21:30.029 --> 00:21:32.490 we wanted to solve a problem in the renewable 00:21:32.490 --> 00:21:36.750 energy sector for climate change. And at that 00:21:36.750 --> 00:21:40.049 time, I realized that, wow, there was so much 00:21:40.049 --> 00:21:42.210 going on. I could never keep up. And I was like, 00:21:42.750 --> 00:21:46.509 I wish that I had my younger me doing the job 00:21:46.509 --> 00:21:49.589 for me so that the younger me could help me filter 00:21:49.589 --> 00:21:51.490 out the information. And I just need to wake 00:21:51.490 --> 00:21:53.650 up and be like, I know what's happening. Makes 00:21:53.650 --> 00:21:56.049 sense, yeah. And then you build that solution 00:21:56.049 --> 00:21:58.299 yourself. And how is that journey going? Like 00:21:58.299 --> 00:22:02.579 what stage are you in? We are still early stage. 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:06.000 We went through a huge pivot, like I briefly 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:09.420 mentioned before. So the pivot is for better 00:22:09.420 --> 00:22:13.559 alignment with the market fit. And yeah, like 00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:19.059 we are still negotiating partnerships and also 00:22:19.059 --> 00:22:22.599 talking to people, building out a platform. And 00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:25.480 we are very excited about it. Was it harder to 00:22:25.480 --> 00:22:27.319 build a business here than it was in Hong Kong? 00:22:28.109 --> 00:22:32.349 Hmm, it's a good question because obviously, 00:22:32.690 --> 00:22:35.869 you know, I can, I speak Cantonese, I write in 00:22:35.869 --> 00:22:38.809 Cantonese. I think because of my language advantages, 00:22:39.470 --> 00:22:41.630 I think it can, you know, people can easily think 00:22:41.630 --> 00:22:43.670 that, oh, you know, why don't you do it in Hong 00:22:43.670 --> 00:22:49.890 Kong? But I think for me, I see myself as quite 00:22:49.890 --> 00:22:52.930 an ambitious individual. I think, you know, I 00:22:52.930 --> 00:22:58.079 left the village. that i lived in for 20 years 00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:01.319 yeah and you know i work in the city in hong 00:23:01.319 --> 00:23:05.359 kong and i work in shanghai and i think i'm i'm 00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:11.359 just naturally a very curious learner and i think 00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:14.039 yes like hong kong would be easy but i think 00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:17.640 that suits so much for me to learn uh you know 00:23:17.710 --> 00:23:20.869 in a more like global setting and I see that 00:23:20.869 --> 00:23:24.130 you know also in terms of tech talents I think 00:23:24.130 --> 00:23:26.369 there are lots of tech talents in London and 00:23:26.369 --> 00:23:29.470 also like obviously also like in in the US that 00:23:29.470 --> 00:23:34.190 I can learn from and I think for me it's really 00:23:34.190 --> 00:23:37.769 about that curiosity that like drives a lot of 00:23:37.769 --> 00:23:42.349 my decision making and I truly believe that to 00:23:42.349 --> 00:23:45.180 also like if if you want to build something that's 00:23:45.180 --> 00:23:49.200 highly scalable, you do want to operate in a 00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:52.700 language that can reach a lot of people. You 00:23:52.700 --> 00:23:54.839 speak two of the most common languages, actually 00:23:54.839 --> 00:23:56.480 technically three, right? Because I'm assuming 00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:59.119 you also speak Mandarin, so that's pretty much 00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:01.940 the whole world with those three languages. Yeah, 00:24:02.140 --> 00:24:04.700 I think that was one of the reasons why I went 00:24:04.700 --> 00:24:07.039 to Shanghai. I went to Shanghai to learn about 00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:10.279 the Chinese digital ecosystem. So if you look 00:24:10.279 --> 00:24:15.400 at China, China has 1 .4 billion people and the 00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:20.960 internet penetration rate is almost 80%. So like 00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:24.700 there are 1 billion internet users. For me, like 00:24:24.700 --> 00:24:27.960 being able to speak that language fully, also 00:24:27.960 --> 00:24:32.460 to understand the nuances in the different Chinese 00:24:32.460 --> 00:24:34.980 cultures, there are a lot of like, you know, 00:24:35.339 --> 00:24:38.000 subset of like Chinese cultures, like farewell, 00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:42.640 like that could give me only advantages. For 00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:48.859 example, now I know what platforms to use if 00:24:48.859 --> 00:24:52.440 I want to, let's say, test something in the Chinese 00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:56.559 market. And also I think it's about gathering 00:24:56.559 --> 00:24:59.539 more data points. So now for my way of gathering 00:24:59.539 --> 00:25:02.160 data points, it's not only limited to let's say 00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:05.500 international channels. I can also find a way 00:25:05.500 --> 00:25:08.720 in the Chinese channels that can get me access 00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:11.859 to all these internet users. And I think, I think 00:25:11.859 --> 00:25:15.380 that can be quite, yeah, quite a useful skill 00:25:15.380 --> 00:25:19.500 to have. So you're excited. I'm assuming you're 00:25:19.500 --> 00:25:21.440 quite excited about the future, right? Because 00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:23.680 you're in the UK, it's completed for markets, 00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:26.279 you know, growing. Do you think there's any like, 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:28.119 in terms of mindset, actually, I'm quite curious 00:25:28.119 --> 00:25:29.900 about this. Do you think there's a big difference 00:25:29.900 --> 00:25:32.740 in mindset between a Chinese founder and a British 00:25:32.740 --> 00:25:36.900 one, for example? Do you really splash your pen 00:25:36.900 --> 00:25:41.000 just to make things a little bit easier? This 00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:45.259 is very hard to answer, I don't... I think like, 00:25:45.339 --> 00:25:47.960 you know, how can I answer in a way that like, 00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:56.859 you know, everyone will be like... I think in 00:25:56.859 --> 00:25:59.539 China, you see a lot of hustling energy. For 00:25:59.539 --> 00:26:02.420 example, last time when I was in Shenzhen, you 00:26:02.420 --> 00:26:04.740 would see people literally trying to sell you 00:26:04.740 --> 00:26:07.339 stuff in the street. Especially now that the 00:26:07.339 --> 00:26:10.880 Chinese economy isn't that good anymore. During 00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:15.000 my time in China, meeting various, catching up 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:19.200 with people, I would have young graduates who 00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:24.359 graduated from the heart of China. literally 00:26:24.359 --> 00:26:28.039 coming up to me, grabbing me, be like, I want 00:26:28.039 --> 00:26:30.319 to help you, and I'm willing to do the work for 00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:34.380 free. That's awesome. That's perfect. Yeah, I 00:26:34.380 --> 00:26:37.299 think like, you know, Chinese people really have, 00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:40.259 especially young people, they have that very 00:26:40.259 --> 00:26:43.480 positive attitude, they're willing to work hard, 00:26:43.480 --> 00:26:47.079 and they just want an opportunity. And you know, 00:26:47.140 --> 00:26:51.609 for them, they Yeah, they're very intellectually 00:26:51.609 --> 00:26:58.529 curious and I think that goes back to why I wanted 00:26:58.529 --> 00:27:01.049 to become successful. I always feel like one 00:27:01.049 --> 00:27:04.230 day I'll be able to bring out people, no matter 00:27:04.230 --> 00:27:07.529 if it's people in the women community or people 00:27:07.529 --> 00:27:10.670 in the Asian community. I think it's a very powerful 00:27:10.670 --> 00:27:15.190 thing when you're able... to give people opportunities. 00:27:15.470 --> 00:27:18.250 And that's why I actually the core reason why 00:27:18.250 --> 00:27:20.970 I pivoted from my first business. I did my first 00:27:20.970 --> 00:27:24.009 business because I wanted to help people. But 00:27:24.009 --> 00:27:28.150 you know, I realized that if I just remain building 00:27:28.150 --> 00:27:33.150 something small, if I didn't dare to achieve 00:27:33.150 --> 00:27:36.950 my full potential. to build something more ambitious. 00:27:37.670 --> 00:27:39.829 The number of people I could help could be limited. 00:27:40.130 --> 00:27:42.329 Can you tell us a bit more about that Chinese 00:27:42.329 --> 00:27:45.329 culture of 996? Can you explain to us the concept? 00:27:45.950 --> 00:27:50.609 Oh, yeah. So it is quite a normal norm in Chinese 00:27:50.609 --> 00:27:56.329 culture that tech workers work from 9am to 9pm 00:27:56.329 --> 00:28:01.839 for six days a week in a row. Yeah, so that is 00:28:01.839 --> 00:28:03.920 quite different from, let's say, the European 00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:05.759 mindset, because I think the European mindset 00:28:05.759 --> 00:28:09.819 is all about work -life balance. First is I think 00:28:09.819 --> 00:28:12.759 there's still a lot of hustling energy in the 00:28:12.759 --> 00:28:15.880 Chinese culture. At the same time, I mean, different 00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:18.500 people have different things that they want, 00:28:18.519 --> 00:28:24.559 right? And for example, some young Gen Z, Chinese 00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:28.099 Gen Z, they've started to feel burnout and quite 00:28:28.099 --> 00:28:31.140 they can be quite resentful to this culture and 00:28:31.140 --> 00:28:34.799 then they have this and then like there's a new 00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:37.220 trend that evolved from it that's called tanping 00:28:37.220 --> 00:28:39.759 that literally means aligning the facts like 00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:41.819 they want to do nothing they just want to go 00:28:41.819 --> 00:28:43.740 to like they don't want they don't want to work 00:28:43.740 --> 00:28:47.140 in shanghai Beijing anymore they they're like 00:28:47.140 --> 00:28:49.440 no I don't care about getting a good job at T1 00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:51.599 city I just want to chill I just want to chill 00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:54.680 I want to like enjoy my life you know on the 00:28:54.680 --> 00:28:57.460 countryside so there are people like that right 00:28:57.460 --> 00:29:00.400 but still you still have a lot of people who 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:04.960 are willing to work hard for opportunities for 00:29:05.950 --> 00:29:08.210 Fairest reason. Interesting. It's quite different 00:29:08.210 --> 00:29:10.269 than what people do here. Like if we work from 00:29:10.269 --> 00:29:12.829 9 to 9, we complain, oh my god, I'm working too 00:29:12.829 --> 00:29:15.630 hard, blah, blah, blah. Whereas half of the world 00:29:15.630 --> 00:29:18.329 is working 9 to 9 and it's completely fine. But 00:29:18.329 --> 00:29:21.329 how do you manage like even getting food? Like 00:29:21.329 --> 00:29:23.690 do you work? Like people just eat in the office? 00:29:23.990 --> 00:29:26.509 Two meals? How does that even work? It's very 00:29:26.509 --> 00:29:29.470 easy. You can order takeaway. So the thing is 00:29:29.470 --> 00:29:30.869 like... The common thing to do is just order 00:29:30.869 --> 00:29:33.769 takeaway for your meal times. Yeah, it is so 00:29:33.769 --> 00:29:37.890 much... cheaper than ordering takeaway in the 00:29:37.890 --> 00:29:40.910 UK. I think that's the difference that I see 00:29:40.910 --> 00:29:45.130 a lot of times. I think when I look at technology 00:29:45.130 --> 00:29:48.529 in China, especially consumer tech, I think it's 00:29:48.529 --> 00:29:53.789 built for everyone. A lot of times, obviously 00:29:53.789 --> 00:29:57.390 in China, these consumer tech companies, they 00:29:57.390 --> 00:30:01.930 want to be able to expand rapidly. And most part 00:30:01.930 --> 00:30:08.440 of China, Not everyone could afford, let's say, 00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:17.720 the price tag in cities. I can feel that difference 00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:23.039 if I have to compare certain types of technology 00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:27.519 in China versus, let's say... Is it a big shock 00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:29.460 every time you go to China and back to Europe 00:30:29.460 --> 00:30:32.279 in terms of how advanced technology is over there? 00:30:32.940 --> 00:30:37.599 Yeah, like things grow really rapidly and I was 00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:40.819 reading this book called Founder's Note. It was 00:30:40.819 --> 00:30:44.519 written by the co -founder of Ctrip, trip .com. 00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:47.099 And I think like, if I remember correctly, he 00:30:47.099 --> 00:30:51.119 got three companies to be listed. So, you know, 00:30:51.259 --> 00:30:54.660 he's very, yeah, like he achieved a lot like 00:30:54.660 --> 00:30:59.200 in the startup world in China. And then he specifically 00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:02.630 mentioned that You know, throughout the whole 00:31:02.630 --> 00:31:06.990 country, Mandarin is a unified language and that 00:31:06.990 --> 00:31:11.029 can help with the scalability of consumer tech 00:31:11.029 --> 00:31:13.089 products. That's that's the kind of interesting 00:31:13.089 --> 00:31:15.609 because I remember a couple years ago when we 00:31:15.609 --> 00:31:18.130 were still talking about electrical bikes and 00:31:18.130 --> 00:31:20.309 ride share things like that China was already 00:31:20.309 --> 00:31:22.890 like overwhelmed with ride ride share options 00:31:22.890 --> 00:31:25.509 for electrical cars like you guys have so many 00:31:25.509 --> 00:31:27.009 options when it comes to electrical cars that 00:31:27.009 --> 00:31:29.210 Europe is still trying to pick up the US you 00:31:29.210 --> 00:31:31.309 know miles away from it so it's quite interesting. 00:31:31.420 --> 00:31:33.880 I think we know who this sentry is going to belong 00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:36.119 to. Let's call it that way. Say that. No one 00:31:36.119 --> 00:31:39.140 would know what's going to happen. Who knows 00:31:39.140 --> 00:31:41.799 what's going to happen? Sure, yeah. Let's see. 00:31:42.380 --> 00:31:45.700 Yeah, I think I always try to have a more neutral 00:31:45.700 --> 00:31:48.559 attitude. If people want to reach out to you 00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:50.319 as when you're in the other podcast, what's the 00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:52.700 best way of doing so? If people want to reach 00:31:52.700 --> 00:31:55.380 out to me, message me on LinkedIn. I am available 00:31:55.380 --> 00:31:57.900 everywhere. I've been writing this newsletter 00:31:57.900 --> 00:32:01.019 called From East to West on Substack. It's also 00:32:01.019 --> 00:32:05.339 available on LinkedIn. So yeah, like reach out 00:32:05.339 --> 00:32:07.940 to me on LinkedIn everywhere. I'm always responsive. 00:32:08.019 --> 00:32:10.420 Instagram as well. Thank you so much, Ricardo. 00:32:10.940 --> 00:32:14.099 The podcast is sponsored by Startupsummit .io, 00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:17.180 a today event bringing together 2000 founders, 00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:19.819 investors and industry leaders from across Europe. 00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:22.240 As a thank you for being part of the podcast 00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:25.640 community, we are now offering 50 % off all tickets 00:32:25.640 --> 00:32:28.619 by using the code podcast in all capitals on 00:32:28.619 --> 00:32:30.279 the website. See you in Lisbon.