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to another episode of the Innovation Conversation.
Today we are joined by Yunsu Tang. Welcome to
the podcast. Thank you so much, Ricardo. I really
look forward to it. Would you like to introduce
yourself to the audience, please? Sure, everyone.
This is Yunsu Tang. I am a second time founder,
also a two time TEDx speaker. I am originally
from Hong Kong and now I'm building Synchro.
So Synchro is an AI stakeholder intelligence
tool, which is like very... tightly close to
my previous job, which was about financial communications,
also about stakeholder mapping for the industry.
So this is something that I'm working on and
I'm very excited about. Cool. And how did you
get started in this journey of entrepreneurship?
It's interesting because I remember when I was
18, when I had my first job, I already told people
that You know, I wanted to have my own business
one day. At that time, I didn't really know what
that would mean. And I guess it's just that I'm
always inspired by my grandmother. She worked
at labor -intensive jobs when she was young,
and she saved every penny. She's really, really
scrappy. And then later she built houses and
managed to really generate enough rental income
to raise me. and you know she's this very resilient
figure in my life my role model so I guess because
of her I always had that idea in my mind but
at the same time I grew up in quite male -dominated
society so I come from the largest and oldest
lineage family in Hong Kong, Tang Clan and I
guess I always want to do something but at the
same time I was scared because you know deep
down inside me just like oh you know i'm a woman
maybe it's not good to stand out too much i think
like in my in the traditional chinese culture
that can be how it goes oh and i grew up in a
very traditional society but yeah like when i
remember you know i did kind of like what traditionally
asian parents would expect There are kids to
do, you know, I pursue a corporate career, work
at Edelman and later I work at FGS Global, which
is a financial communications firm backed by
KKR and Edelman is the world's largest PR firm.
And I felt like I did that. And when I got the
offer from the LSE to pursue a master's degree
in management of information systems and digital
innovation, it was a hell yes. I didn't even
think about it because I was just so, so drawn
to tech space. And I felt like, you know, there's
still so much that I could learn. And yeah, I
did that. And during this journey, I found myself
being, yeah, like just, it's almost like finally,
I kind of, you know, I think there's a way to
get to where I wanted to go. Okay. What was the
first startup you launched? So my first startup
very much focused on the mental health space.
So I had the idea during Sprint Week. So Sprint
Week is a week -long project where a team come
together and identify a problem to solve in the
real world and do rapid prototyping and design
solution to solve that problem. So that was something
that I had to do during my master's degree. And
so during that time, I already had the idea that,
OK, I wanted to build to solve a problem in the
mental health space. and I remember like you
know during spring week even though you know
my first style of scene didn't come along like
we work on something else that's more related
to sustainability but still I was so passionate
I worked till 4 a .m work at like 8 a .m I just
can't yeah and I just kept going you know my
I think my teammates just thought that I was
crazy. They were like, why are you sending us
messages at 4am? Are you okay? It's just a school
project. Chill. Everyone was so chill. I was
just like, no, I really want to do this. Yeah,
so after I finished everything, my coursework,
I just decided, okay, I had this idea and I didn't
want to just let it sit there. I wanted to make
things happen. It took like, you know me some
time to be like, oh, you know, I really want
to do this You know, like I think even though
you know, I wasn't let's say a very young student
anymore, but I still wanted to get my family
approval and It wasn't that easy. But yeah, like
at the end at the end we had like back -and -forth
conversation and I kind of persuaded them to
kind of allow me to pursue this path so after
I graduated from my master's degree I just decided
that yeah I'm going to do this and so I built
my first startup that aimed to help people who
suffer from career anxiety especially among the
Asian community. Was it hard to convince your
family that you wanted to be an entrepreneur?
Yeah. Very tough, you know, but it has always
been tough I felt like so so my grandmother went
through an arranged marriage Married very young
and then my mother also married very young like
she was married at the age of 20 So even when
I was 23, I want I was like, oh, you know, I
want to do a master's degree My feminine was
like, you know, you're at the age to get married
Okay, so for listeners who probably don't get
this, in Chinese culture, and correct me if I'm
wrong, the pressure is on to get married until
25, right? So that's the age. And then there's
like a cutoff date. So if you don't get married
until that date, then you kind of get seen as
a leftover, I guess, person. Yeah, I'm definitely
a leftover woman now. But that is a true Chinese
culture, right? I think it depends on the family
dynamic. I think it is... you know it's really
yes i think that's still this pressure in the
society but i know as a fact that not everyone
around me who are asian women have been through
this uh situation i think my situation is particularly
serious because you know again i grew up in this
very traditional society is is you know i didn't
grow up in the city i grew up on the countryside
of hong kong and i'm very much let's say village
girl so and my grandmother was brought up by
her grandmother and my i'm very close with my
grandmother so i think yeah so so just that i
there's a little bit of generational gap as well
and everything just come down together and and
and yes i was expected to find a man, you know,
quite, quite early on. And I think like I remain
a disappointment because I'm still, I'm still
pursuing this other path. But you know, yeah,
so, so, so yes, it took, it took some back and
forth. There, there was tension here and there.
And I think it's normal, you know, even for,
I know that, you know, sometimes because I gave
talks at the LSE sometimes, and I did have Asian
students coming to me asking this question be
like how did you even talk to your family about
this yeah so so i think things have to make sense
right it's just that you know a lot of times
what's happening now is very different from what's
happening let's say you know when they were young
so i guess like why that's the set path was that
you know when they were at our age like it was
a normal path to be like okay you get a very
stable job you save and then you buy a property
you get a mortgage but the thing is that property
prices are not you know promising now so that
path actually like it's not that stable anymore
it's just a different time and i think there
are a lot of things that you know are different
now and it takes communications to to make sure
that we find alignment i think like it's very
important to remember that at the end of the
day right like they want the best for you i don't
know like how it's like in your culture i mean
a lot of asian family But this is exactly why
I was asking this question, because a lot of
the entrepreneurs I talked to, they all have
different pressures. They come in from different
backgrounds. It might be a family pressure. It
might be expectation of their friends and peers
where they operate in. And it's quite important
to talk about this, because that also impacts
the way you go about launching your business,
the pressure you feel, your ability to be successful
at a certain age or not. Because if people expect
you to be married when you're 25 or 23, then
you don't have that much time to actually launch
a business before that, right? So you must be
very young to launch a business. It's quite important
to talk about these things. Yeah, but it's interesting,
right? Sometimes it is, you know, in the negotiation,
in the negotiation process, you need to understand
what the other party wants. So actually that
went into, you know, part of my pawns for negotiation,
I would tell them, yes, I want I still have my
family values, I want to get married, I want
to have kids. I would still tell them that. But
in the future, if I succeed in my startup, then
my future kids will have more time with them.
I'll have more freedom in the future. So I think
it's very important to also not just be like,
okay, I want to do this, or just because... because
it's something that I want to do. I think it's
always communications and negotiation. Yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense. So you went from the
first startup, which obviously was a big shock
for the family. They got used to the shock and
you launched the second one. So how did that
happen? Yeah. So I was lucky. I mean, it was
also because of my hard work, right? Because
I really tried very hard. And at that time, I
won a grant from an ex -YC founder and he started
coaching me. So I was, I'm really, really grateful
that Ashworth, who is the founder of Steading
Road, like, you know, he really gave me a lot
of help. So I think that kind of gave me a window
inside of like, you know, how the startup role
works and functions and how like a, like a venture
capitalist thinks. So I think you know, it's
very important that we should be honest with
ourselves, you know, you know, to really listen
to data, to look at, you know, what's happening.
And I think at that time, when I started my first
startup, it was very much impact and mission
driven. And you know, it's interesting, because
I think a lot of entrepreneurs, it's very hard
for them to accept that a lot of the times their
first idea just doesn't work out. Which is normal,
by the way. Exactly. And it's completely normal.
At that time, I didn't think it was. I was like,
why? You know, like... Yeah, it's almost like
when I decided to pivot, it's like I had to go
through almost like a heartbreak. I just felt
like, you know, I got really good testimonials.
I felt like my customers needed me. I was giving
the help that people needed. It's very much like
I felt like... people needed me. And I thought,
okay, if I stop then, then how, where, where
could these people, you know, go to? Right. But
I think like, sorry. I was just curious. Why
do you think it was so hard for you to, to be
able to process the fact that he needed to pivot,
that he needed to close one thing and open a
new one? Why do you think that works? I think
because things, I always try to do things that
align with my purpose and at that time you know
I felt like so I work in Hong Kong and you know
I always face imposter syndrome because everyone
around me was so smart it's good that I got into
very good firms but at the same time I was really
like surrounded by elites and I never felt like
I was good enough and you know especially given
my kind of unique background right like I didn't
go to a girl's school, I didn't go to an international
school in Hong Kong, and I was surrounded by
people who went to the best schools, they had
the perfect resume. So I always find it hard
to fit in. Again, I'm indigenous, right? I know
I don't really look like I am. It's just a very
specific, let's say, Hong Kong thing. I'm an
indigenous white -tie woman. So this is a little
bit more complex right now. Hold on, maybe you
can show the audience, because it's like, well,
hold on. So what's the difference? Yeah. So I
mentioned before that grew up on the countryside.
And so my family has a thousand years of history
in Hong Kong. So before Hong Kong became Hong
Kong, you know, we were already there. We were
one of the first settlers. So, yeah, Tang Kings.
Hong Kong's largest and oldest lineage family.
And I'm the 25th generation. So for some, you
know, families, they are like probably they they
are around like 30 generations already. So I
think that adds a lot of complexity into how
I felt when I was working at, you know, very
competitive environments. And a lot of things
are internal, you know, like I just I think it
took me time to process it and would that be
part of the culture in the sense that you would
talk with someone and because of your last name
and they realize how I guess how old your family
would be in Hong Kong and they will treat it
differently because of that? I don't think I
was being treated differently but it's just a
lot of things that are internal so I didn't feel
like I was enough because I didn't go to I wasn't
coming from a certain background and also you
know you know, a lot of Hong Kong people, they
speak perfect English, especially like, you know,
the people who went to international school.
And I felt like I was always catching up. And
then at the same time, it was also about how,
you know, when you are not, let's say, emotionally
or mentally very healthy, then then sometimes
very hard for you to take feedback as well. So
I think like I was at that state in in that state
my mindset just wasn't very right when I was
in my early 20s and I think a lot of times it
comes from some deep insecurity and then later
I work in Shanghai and you know I still carry
that with me and I think like things could even
become worse um you know and also I saw how around
me people really suffer from anxiety issues so
I think it came from a really personal place.
I wanted to help my friends, I wanted to help
myself. And I felt like building a salad was
my way of doing that and also is my way of healing.
During this time, for example, I interviewed
around 50 coaches who have more or less made
it in their careers. And then what I realized
is that a lot of the times when you look at someone's
resume, it's like, wow, like that person must
be having a perfect life. But actually everyone
has been through something. Yeah, that's very
true. Yeah. And a lot of times I realized that
it really comes down to, you know, the qualities
of a person. The people who are successful, a
lot of the times it's because they're very resilient.
And I remember one of the people I interviewed
He told me that he grew up in the UK as the only
almost like long white family in the whole town
of 18 ,000 people. Okay. And then we're over
1 ,800. Sorry. Anyway, like basically he was
a minority in that like UK town. And then he
Yeah, like he he told me how you know resilient
he was even though he looked very different and
You know, maybe you know, like just people weren't
very let's say used to his culture and everything
And then he told me that yes, I could have setbacks
But you know, I never failed because you know,
I even though I was different. I enjoyed being
different So a lot of times really it really
comes down to mindset. So I think it was my Yeah,
my way of learning from you know people who have
been through you know different challenges and
also my way of Contributing to the society and
I think it's so much about okay if I look back
if I ask my younger me like what she would need
and I think at that time it was very much about
how I could help the younger me because it's
funny because most people I talk to a lot of
entrepreneurs and for most entrepreneurs, it
takes a while to realize that they're actually
going through a lot of mental transformations,
right? When you decide to launch a business,
your mindset is telling you, I need to do this
because of AB &C. But when you're running a business
and ultimately when you move from that business
onward to your next venture, there is a massive
transformation, right? And you need to take that
on board and learn those lessons and say, for
my next thing, it's going to be completely different.
So you open your business, big shock, you don't
want to get married, actually want to run the
business, then, you know, he goes, I'm not gonna
say the wrong way, but he finds it natural and,
and then you move to Shanghai. And then when
did you decide to launch the second business?
So around the beginning of this year. So yes,
I moved from Shanghai to London to do my master's
degree. And after I graduated, I started my first
business and it lasted for around half a year.
And then I started my second one. And at that
time, I think it was good to have my first startup
too. you know, process a lot of things and also
make me realize my gaps. So when I started my
second startup, I made sure to have a co -founder.
And I understand, right, a lot of people, they
would be like, they could do it all by themselves.
But then what I learned is that because I've
done both, it's very good to have a partner to
give you that feedback loop and to make sure
that, you know, you keep each other accountable
and, you know, keep going, keep that momentum.
So I started my second. start up I think around
yeah like like around mid last year yeah so it's
very much solves the pain point that I saw in
my previous job a lot of the times if I look
at my role it's about how I could go through
a lot of publicly available data for example
media articles policy announcement and also digital
media sources to make sense of this data to generate
insights from this data. Just think about it
like when you are a CEO of a large corporation,
every day you wake up you want to make sure that
you know what's happening in the world that's
related to your company. That would include any
news that mentions your company, also mention
your name, also you know what's happening with
your competitors. Also, what are the policies
that are relevant to the industry that you operate
in? Difference cases is all different, but then
it's so much about, okay, how could I filter
out information that's relevant to you and give
you that insight? And I think now a lot of people
can suffer from digital override issues. I was
the same. When I started my second startup, Originally,
we wanted to solve a problem in the renewable
energy sector for climate change. And at that
time, I realized that, wow, there was so much
going on. I could never keep up. And I was like,
I wish that I had my younger me doing the job
for me so that the younger me could help me filter
out the information. And I just need to wake
up and be like, I know what's happening. Makes
sense, yeah. And then you build that solution
yourself. And how is that journey going? Like
what stage are you in? We are still early stage.
We went through a huge pivot, like I briefly
mentioned before. So the pivot is for better
alignment with the market fit. And yeah, like
we are still negotiating partnerships and also
talking to people, building out a platform. And
we are very excited about it. Was it harder to
build a business here than it was in Hong Kong?
Hmm, it's a good question because obviously,
you know, I can, I speak Cantonese, I write in
Cantonese. I think because of my language advantages,
I think it can, you know, people can easily think
that, oh, you know, why don't you do it in Hong
Kong? But I think for me, I see myself as quite
an ambitious individual. I think, you know, I
left the village. that i lived in for 20 years
yeah and you know i work in the city in hong
kong and i work in shanghai and i think i'm i'm
just naturally a very curious learner and i think
yes like hong kong would be easy but i think
that suits so much for me to learn uh you know
in a more like global setting and I see that
you know also in terms of tech talents I think
there are lots of tech talents in London and
also like obviously also like in in the US that
I can learn from and I think for me it's really
about that curiosity that like drives a lot of
my decision making and I truly believe that to
also like if if you want to build something that's
highly scalable, you do want to operate in a
language that can reach a lot of people. You
speak two of the most common languages, actually
technically three, right? Because I'm assuming
you also speak Mandarin, so that's pretty much
the whole world with those three languages. Yeah,
I think that was one of the reasons why I went
to Shanghai. I went to Shanghai to learn about
the Chinese digital ecosystem. So if you look
at China, China has 1 .4 billion people and the
internet penetration rate is almost 80%. So like
there are 1 billion internet users. For me, like
being able to speak that language fully, also
to understand the nuances in the different Chinese
cultures, there are a lot of like, you know,
subset of like Chinese cultures, like farewell,
like that could give me only advantages. For
example, now I know what platforms to use if
I want to, let's say, test something in the Chinese
market. And also I think it's about gathering
more data points. So now for my way of gathering
data points, it's not only limited to let's say
international channels. I can also find a way
in the Chinese channels that can get me access
to all these internet users. And I think, I think
that can be quite, yeah, quite a useful skill
to have. So you're excited. I'm assuming you're
quite excited about the future, right? Because
you're in the UK, it's completed for markets,
you know, growing. Do you think there's any like,
in terms of mindset, actually, I'm quite curious
about this. Do you think there's a big difference
in mindset between a Chinese founder and a British
one, for example? Do you really splash your pen
just to make things a little bit easier? This
is very hard to answer, I don't... I think like,
you know, how can I answer in a way that like,
you know, everyone will be like... I think in
China, you see a lot of hustling energy. For
example, last time when I was in Shenzhen, you
would see people literally trying to sell you
stuff in the street. Especially now that the
Chinese economy isn't that good anymore. During
my time in China, meeting various, catching up
with people, I would have young graduates who
graduated from the heart of China. literally
coming up to me, grabbing me, be like, I want
to help you, and I'm willing to do the work for
free. That's awesome. That's perfect. Yeah, I
think like, you know, Chinese people really have,
especially young people, they have that very
positive attitude, they're willing to work hard,
and they just want an opportunity. And you know,
for them, they Yeah, they're very intellectually
curious and I think that goes back to why I wanted
to become successful. I always feel like one
day I'll be able to bring out people, no matter
if it's people in the women community or people
in the Asian community. I think it's a very powerful
thing when you're able... to give people opportunities.
And that's why I actually the core reason why
I pivoted from my first business. I did my first
business because I wanted to help people. But
you know, I realized that if I just remain building
something small, if I didn't dare to achieve
my full potential. to build something more ambitious.
The number of people I could help could be limited.
Can you tell us a bit more about that Chinese
culture of 996? Can you explain to us the concept?
Oh, yeah. So it is quite a normal norm in Chinese
culture that tech workers work from 9am to 9pm
for six days a week in a row. Yeah, so that is
quite different from, let's say, the European
mindset, because I think the European mindset
is all about work -life balance. First is I think
there's still a lot of hustling energy in the
Chinese culture. At the same time, I mean, different
people have different things that they want,
right? And for example, some young Gen Z, Chinese
Gen Z, they've started to feel burnout and quite
they can be quite resentful to this culture and
then they have this and then like there's a new
trend that evolved from it that's called tanping
that literally means aligning the facts like
they want to do nothing they just want to go
to like they don't want they don't want to work
in shanghai Beijing anymore they they're like
no I don't care about getting a good job at T1
city I just want to chill I just want to chill
I want to like enjoy my life you know on the
countryside so there are people like that right
but still you still have a lot of people who
are willing to work hard for opportunities for
Fairest reason. Interesting. It's quite different
than what people do here. Like if we work from
9 to 9, we complain, oh my god, I'm working too
hard, blah, blah, blah. Whereas half of the world
is working 9 to 9 and it's completely fine. But
how do you manage like even getting food? Like
do you work? Like people just eat in the office?
Two meals? How does that even work? It's very
easy. You can order takeaway. So the thing is
like... The common thing to do is just order
takeaway for your meal times. Yeah, it is so
much... cheaper than ordering takeaway in the
UK. I think that's the difference that I see
a lot of times. I think when I look at technology
in China, especially consumer tech, I think it's
built for everyone. A lot of times, obviously
in China, these consumer tech companies, they
want to be able to expand rapidly. And most part
of China, Not everyone could afford, let's say,
the price tag in cities. I can feel that difference
if I have to compare certain types of technology
in China versus, let's say... Is it a big shock
every time you go to China and back to Europe
in terms of how advanced technology is over there?
Yeah, like things grow really rapidly and I was
reading this book called Founder's Note. It was
written by the co -founder of Ctrip, trip .com.
And I think like, if I remember correctly, he
got three companies to be listed. So, you know,
he's very, yeah, like he achieved a lot like
in the startup world in China. And then he specifically
mentioned that You know, throughout the whole
country, Mandarin is a unified language and that
can help with the scalability of consumer tech
products. That's that's the kind of interesting
because I remember a couple years ago when we
were still talking about electrical bikes and
ride share things like that China was already
like overwhelmed with ride ride share options
for electrical cars like you guys have so many
options when it comes to electrical cars that
Europe is still trying to pick up the US you
know miles away from it so it's quite interesting.
I think we know who this sentry is going to belong
to. Let's call it that way. Say that. No one
would know what's going to happen. Who knows
what's going to happen? Sure, yeah. Let's see.
Yeah, I think I always try to have a more neutral
attitude. If people want to reach out to you
as when you're in the other podcast, what's the
best way of doing so? If people want to reach
out to me, message me on LinkedIn. I am available
everywhere. I've been writing this newsletter
called From East to West on Substack. It's also
available on LinkedIn. So yeah, like reach out
to me on LinkedIn everywhere. I'm always responsive.
Instagram as well. Thank you so much, Ricardo.
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