WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.859 Welcome to the Innovation Conversation, a podcast 00:00:02.859 --> 00:00:05.419 about innovators, both in business and real life. 00:00:05.879 --> 00:00:08.380 Hosted by myself, Ricardo Rescual and Harry McCona. 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:11.699 This podcast is also sponsored by ODEV Tech. 00:00:12.439 --> 00:00:14.640 ODEV Tech is your premier software development 00:00:14.640 --> 00:00:18.019 partner. Make sure you check them out at odev 00:00:18.019 --> 00:00:22.399 .tech. The podcast is also sponsored by Notion 00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:25.359 .so. Notion is offering six months for free for 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:27.820 new users. Make sure you check out our website, 00:00:28.039 --> 00:00:30.480 thestoreofevents .co .uk to read in the software. 00:00:30.739 --> 00:00:32.960 Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Innovation 00:00:32.960 --> 00:00:35.799 Conversation. Today we are joined by Dr. Georgia 00:00:35.799 --> 00:00:38.719 Fleet and Carla Southworth. Welcome to the podcast. 00:00:39.399 --> 00:00:42.899 Thank you. Thank you for having us. Should I 00:00:42.899 --> 00:00:44.799 say ladies? I'm not sure that's a bit pretentious. 00:00:45.439 --> 00:00:48.420 Would you like to please go and introduce yourself 00:00:48.420 --> 00:00:50.880 to the audience? So, yeah, my name is Georgia. 00:00:51.179 --> 00:00:56.009 I am the co -founder and CEO at Zonova. My background 00:00:56.009 --> 00:00:58.869 is primarily that I am a scientist. I've had 00:00:58.869 --> 00:01:03.030 a bit of a weird and wonderful background of, 00:01:03.030 --> 00:01:05.709 you know, different types of experiences. But 00:01:05.709 --> 00:01:09.170 yeah, we founded Cinova back in 2023. Yeah, we're 00:01:09.170 --> 00:01:11.049 really excited to be speaking with you about 00:01:11.049 --> 00:01:14.170 it today. Carla, what were you doing in Cinova? 00:01:14.549 --> 00:01:18.790 Sorry, and I'm Carla. I have backgrounds in NHS 00:01:18.790 --> 00:01:21.230 healthcare, 12 years working across various different 00:01:21.230 --> 00:01:24.620 sectors. met George a couple of years ago and 00:01:24.620 --> 00:01:27.379 then the rest is history. Interesting. So what 00:01:27.379 --> 00:01:30.180 does Sinova do? So we are a medtech startup and 00:01:30.180 --> 00:01:32.620 what we have developed is a novel antimicrobial 00:01:32.620 --> 00:01:36.180 technology that we incorporate into medical devices. 00:01:36.659 --> 00:01:39.319 So that's a bit of a mouthful but effectively 00:01:39.319 --> 00:01:42.019 what we do is we make medical devices that are 00:01:42.019 --> 00:01:44.780 used every day in hospitals so things like IV 00:01:44.780 --> 00:01:48.280 cannulas, catheters, endotracheal tubes, those 00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:50.659 types of medical devices that are associated 00:01:50.659 --> 00:01:53.239 with infections. We just reduce the risk of that 00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:55.760 by adding our novel antimicrobial technology 00:01:55.760 --> 00:01:59.120 into it. Isn't that already antimicrobial? I 00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:00.920 would assume you already have some protection 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:04.159 in those things, or just plain plastic? No, these 00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:07.120 devices are all just polymers, so they're all 00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:10.770 just flexible plastic tubing. And, you know, 00:02:10.870 --> 00:02:12.750 these devices are used every day. They're really 00:02:12.750 --> 00:02:16.430 common, you know, into the billions used annually 00:02:16.430 --> 00:02:18.509 across all these different types of devices around 00:02:18.509 --> 00:02:22.629 the world. And, yeah, they have really high infection 00:02:22.629 --> 00:02:26.930 rates. You know, the surface of the device itself. 00:02:27.590 --> 00:02:30.750 provides a really nice environment for bacterial 00:02:30.750 --> 00:02:33.250 biofilms to grow. And basically, the longer they're 00:02:33.250 --> 00:02:35.629 in the body, the higher your chances are of that 00:02:35.629 --> 00:02:37.909 infection. So, you know, with long -term intubated 00:02:37.909 --> 00:02:39.870 patients, for example, you see that infection 00:02:39.870 --> 00:02:43.150 risk go up quite significantly. And urinary catheters 00:02:43.150 --> 00:02:45.969 as well, especially the indwelling ones. I think 00:02:45.969 --> 00:02:50.189 there was a CDC, part of the CDC website that 00:02:50.189 --> 00:02:53.389 says, you know, 75 % of catheterized patients 00:02:53.389 --> 00:02:57.030 will experience urinary tract infections, so 00:02:57.030 --> 00:03:00.629 UTI. That's horrible. 75 % is super high. Yeah. 00:03:00.750 --> 00:03:02.469 I think obviously in terms of the reporting and 00:03:02.469 --> 00:03:05.030 the data available, you know, those figures do 00:03:05.030 --> 00:03:07.189 vary and they vary across regions and different 00:03:07.189 --> 00:03:10.210 areas of the world as well. But yeah, it's a 00:03:10.210 --> 00:03:12.610 huge problem. And at the moment, the only solution 00:03:12.610 --> 00:03:15.610 is just to treat it with antibiotics. But, you 00:03:15.610 --> 00:03:17.590 know, obviously as the antimicrobial resistance 00:03:17.590 --> 00:03:20.830 crisis worsens, we have fewer and fewer options 00:03:20.830 --> 00:03:24.270 available effective. antibiotic. What prompted 00:03:24.270 --> 00:03:27.810 you to come up with the idea? Pardon? What made 00:03:27.810 --> 00:03:30.969 you come up with the idea? Oh, so this health, 00:03:31.229 --> 00:03:33.550 how long and far back do you want me to go with 00:03:33.550 --> 00:03:38.330 this one? Anytime. Okay, so this all really came 00:03:38.330 --> 00:03:45.449 about during my PhD. So I started my PhD in 2018. 00:03:45.650 --> 00:03:49.030 So pre COVID. And I was actually supposed to 00:03:49.030 --> 00:03:50.810 be doing my PhD something on like dental care 00:03:50.810 --> 00:03:53.740 or oral health care. but quickly found myself 00:03:53.740 --> 00:03:57.199 looking into hospital -acquired infections. So 00:03:57.199 --> 00:03:59.039 that is those types of infections that you get 00:03:59.039 --> 00:04:01.879 as a result of being in hospital. So, you know, 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:03.800 a large portion of those are device -related. 00:04:04.819 --> 00:04:07.460 And the one that really struck me actually was 00:04:07.460 --> 00:04:10.180 ventilator -associated pneumonia. So those are 00:04:10.180 --> 00:04:13.379 the infections associated with being on a ventilator. 00:04:13.879 --> 00:04:15.979 So that specifically is the endotracheal tube. 00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:17.839 So when you're intubated and you have that tube 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:21.420 kind of here accessing the lungs, That is the 00:04:21.420 --> 00:04:26.240 tube that often gets pretty disgusting over the 00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:29.300 course of intubation with bacterial biofilms. 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:32.839 What I was reading was that because the nature 00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:35.420 of intubation provides this direct access into 00:04:35.420 --> 00:04:39.100 the lungs, you get really serious cases of pneumonia 00:04:39.100 --> 00:04:42.500 and actually a really significant portion of 00:04:42.500 --> 00:04:45.279 patients that are ventilated die from these secondary 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:48.310 infections and not from what they were put on 00:04:48.310 --> 00:04:51.589 the ventilator in the first place for. And so 00:04:51.589 --> 00:04:54.350 for me that was really shocking and that's kind 00:04:54.350 --> 00:04:58.490 of what got me into this specific area of medical 00:04:58.490 --> 00:05:02.269 devices and the associated infections. And then 00:05:02.269 --> 00:05:04.769 that was confirmed when I'd spoken to a critical 00:05:04.769 --> 00:05:08.470 care consultant at a hospital nearby and he was 00:05:08.470 --> 00:05:10.290 saying that he thinks actually his leading cause 00:05:10.290 --> 00:05:13.129 of death in his unit were as a result of these 00:05:13.129 --> 00:05:16.259 secondary infections. Yeah, really huge problem 00:05:16.259 --> 00:05:18.339 and it just seemed really crazy to me and completely 00:05:18.339 --> 00:05:20.540 unnecessary that you have these really high mortality 00:05:20.540 --> 00:05:24.279 rates from just being in hospital and the devices 00:05:24.279 --> 00:05:27.639 that you have to use. Obviously not ventilating 00:05:27.639 --> 00:05:29.740 isn't an option either. If you're put on a ventilator, 00:05:29.899 --> 00:05:33.019 there's no other choice. So yeah, that's when 00:05:33.019 --> 00:05:37.399 I set out to make the tubing itself antimicrobial 00:05:37.399 --> 00:05:39.600 to try and reduce the risk of these infections 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:42.660 and ultimately, hopefully, better patient outcomes. 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:45.899 So yeah, that was what my entire PhD was focused 00:05:45.899 --> 00:05:50.660 on. And, you know, effectively I did it. You 00:05:50.660 --> 00:05:54.459 know, we made, I say we, the royal we, I made 00:05:54.459 --> 00:05:58.199 an antimicrobial endotracheal tube, the ventilator 00:05:58.199 --> 00:06:01.339 tube. But as with a lot of things that come out 00:06:01.339 --> 00:06:05.920 of academia, it was really expensive and difficult 00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:08.399 to make. It just was, it was never going to be 00:06:08.399 --> 00:06:12.939 commercially viable to make this. endotracheal 00:06:12.939 --> 00:06:14.819 tubes, all these types of medical devices are 00:06:14.819 --> 00:06:18.660 like one use, single use throwaway devices that 00:06:18.660 --> 00:06:22.459 they have to be cheap. And yeah, putting this 00:06:22.459 --> 00:06:25.000 technology in was just not going to be that and 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:26.560 therefore you just wouldn't be able to commercialize 00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:31.740 it and scale it. So when I left my PhD, that 00:06:31.740 --> 00:06:34.139 was when I really focused on, okay, we're definitely 00:06:34.139 --> 00:06:35.720 onto something here in terms of like there's 00:06:35.720 --> 00:06:39.550 a need, but how do we make that affordable? So 00:06:39.550 --> 00:06:43.089 yeah, that was basically how Zonova was born. 00:06:44.230 --> 00:06:45.870 I was just thinking about the stats and it's 00:06:45.870 --> 00:06:48.569 actually really crazy. 75 % of people intubated 00:06:48.569 --> 00:06:50.370 are going to get some type of infection. That's 00:06:50.370 --> 00:06:52.910 actually super high. I don't want to go to the 00:06:52.910 --> 00:06:54.889 hospital now anymore. Not that it's something 00:06:54.889 --> 00:06:56.709 that happens on a regular basis getting intubated, 00:06:56.790 --> 00:07:00.509 but still it's incredibly high. Yeah, so I don't 00:07:00.509 --> 00:07:02.750 know the figures for intubation off the top of 00:07:02.750 --> 00:07:04.910 my head and I think the figures for intubation 00:07:04.910 --> 00:07:08.529 are quite complicated and especially when COVID 00:07:08.529 --> 00:07:11.189 came along, we had significantly more people 00:07:11.189 --> 00:07:13.509 being intubated, and so the figures are debated 00:07:13.509 --> 00:07:16.310 for that one. But yeah, the 75 % figure was for 00:07:16.310 --> 00:07:19.910 the urinary catheters. And then for IV catheters, 00:07:19.949 --> 00:07:22.410 for example, you know, again, you've got a device 00:07:22.410 --> 00:07:26.069 that sits, you know, in the body, access to your 00:07:26.069 --> 00:07:29.069 bloodstream, and the infections that you get 00:07:29.069 --> 00:07:31.050 that are typically associated with IVs, you know, 00:07:31.069 --> 00:07:33.370 you can get like phlebitis and phlegm information, 00:07:34.209 --> 00:07:37.660 but also, you know, sepsis. another really big 00:07:37.660 --> 00:07:41.680 serious infection. And what the literature that 00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:46.000 I've read has shown is that off the top of my 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:49.259 head from memory, I think it was about 25 % associated 00:07:49.259 --> 00:07:51.439 with infection in terms of your likelihood of 00:07:51.439 --> 00:07:53.360 getting an infection, sorry, but when you are 00:07:53.360 --> 00:07:55.699 immune compromised, so for example, if you are 00:07:55.699 --> 00:07:59.819 in critical care, and you have that IV in, then 00:07:59.819 --> 00:08:02.480 your likelihood goes up to more towards the 50 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:05.500 % end. And obviously, you know, these are all 00:08:05.500 --> 00:08:08.220 like, you know, in literature, maybe I can put 00:08:08.220 --> 00:08:12.019 some sources or something below to add on to 00:08:12.019 --> 00:08:15.879 this. But yeah, so it's, yeah, it's, it's really 00:08:15.879 --> 00:08:17.800 problematic. And I think at the moment, you know, 00:08:17.939 --> 00:08:20.680 the doctors and vets, because this runs across 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:22.879 both human and animal health care, the only kind 00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:27.279 of tool that they have is, you know, good, good 00:08:27.279 --> 00:08:29.319 clinical practice. And, you know, in terms of 00:08:29.319 --> 00:08:30.699 preventing infections, like washing your hands, 00:08:30.740 --> 00:08:33.139 x, y, z. But other than that, it's pretty much 00:08:33.139 --> 00:08:37.559 just antibiotics. And so, yeah, with antibiotics 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:39.220 becoming less and less effective, we're going 00:08:39.220 --> 00:08:42.460 to end up in a really, really serious situation 00:08:42.460 --> 00:08:46.299 quite soon if the forecasts are correct. Yeah, 00:08:46.299 --> 00:08:49.980 that's quite scary, actually. It brings me back 00:08:49.980 --> 00:08:52.980 to before they just found germs, right? That 00:08:52.980 --> 00:08:55.059 was a big issue because I had no idea what was 00:08:55.059 --> 00:08:57.080 causing so much mortality. And then they all 00:08:57.080 --> 00:08:58.700 of a sudden realized, oh, there's a thing called 00:08:58.700 --> 00:09:00.419 germs. That's probably what's killing this many 00:09:00.419 --> 00:09:03.860 people. And to think that we still die from stuff 00:09:03.860 --> 00:09:07.120 like that, because there's not nothing like the 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:08.639 stuff you guys are doing for the market. Actually, 00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:11.059 it's a bit crazy. So what you know, you came 00:09:11.059 --> 00:09:13.620 up with this with a system you found in academia, 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:15.200 and then he decided to launch a startup. How 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:17.340 was that journey? Like, all the journey to starting, 00:09:17.740 --> 00:09:23.919 starting the company, long and hard. So I, I've 00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:26.360 got notes going back on my phone from like 2021 00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:28.139 on terms of starting a company. So I think it 00:09:28.139 --> 00:09:30.220 was always back of mind, especially whilst I 00:09:30.220 --> 00:09:33.399 was doing my PhD. We didn't officially incorporate 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:37.840 until the 8th of March 2023, which was also International 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:41.860 Women's Day. So that was nice. And yeah, so the 00:09:41.860 --> 00:09:44.860 journey to getting there, it was basically a 00:09:44.860 --> 00:09:49.320 year and a half of me bootstrapping and trying 00:09:49.320 --> 00:09:52.860 to get what work I could done in my spare bedroom. 00:09:52.919 --> 00:09:56.299 So we did do a few experiments in the spare bedroom 00:09:56.299 --> 00:09:59.200 with what we could order off Amazon and, you 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:01.519 know, what chemical companies would deliver to 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:06.450 a residential. location. And then yeah, then 00:10:06.450 --> 00:10:10.230 we used that to get an initial US provisional 00:10:10.230 --> 00:10:13.309 patent filed and then go from there and do our 00:10:13.309 --> 00:10:15.250 fundraise. So we, it was a year and a half of 00:10:15.250 --> 00:10:17.110 bootstrapping and me working, you know, multiple 00:10:17.110 --> 00:10:20.409 part -time jobs on top of that. And then we closed 00:10:20.409 --> 00:10:23.090 our first pre -seed round last June. So that's 00:10:23.090 --> 00:10:25.289 June, 2024. And what was the market telling you 00:10:25.289 --> 00:10:28.460 so far? Pardon? What's the market telling you 00:10:28.460 --> 00:10:30.820 so far? So the feedback that we've had from, 00:10:30.820 --> 00:10:33.779 you know, doctors and veterinarians is that, 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:36.759 you know, this, if it works, is their main concern, 00:10:36.899 --> 00:10:39.460 you know, if it works, would be, you know, completely 00:10:39.460 --> 00:10:42.419 revolutionary in terms of how we prevent infections 00:10:42.419 --> 00:10:44.639 and, you know, in general, just like infection 00:10:44.639 --> 00:10:52.440 control within hospitals. Yes, I think the pressures, 00:10:52.820 --> 00:10:54.220 particularly in the healthcare system at the 00:10:54.220 --> 00:10:57.039 moment are massive and with recent announcements 00:10:57.039 --> 00:10:59.980 of further cuts and reorganisations, which takes 00:10:59.980 --> 00:11:02.940 up so much capacity and kind of the focus away 00:11:02.940 --> 00:11:05.720 from delivering clinical service to patients. 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:08.559 Any opportunity to try and reduce risk of infection, 00:11:08.860 --> 00:11:11.120 reduce hospital stays, reduce admissions in the 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:13.980 first place is very much welcome at the moment. 00:11:14.600 --> 00:11:17.799 So, yeah, as George said, if it works is always 00:11:17.799 --> 00:11:20.000 kind of the first feedback we get. But I think 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:23.559 once we can... or not even convinced, but once 00:11:23.559 --> 00:11:26.960 we can evidence that for them, I think the appetite 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:29.799 is going to be huge and very much appreciated. 00:11:30.299 --> 00:11:33.159 And I think one of our concerns was whether people 00:11:33.159 --> 00:11:36.240 were really buying into how much AMR and the 00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:39.220 antimicrobial resistance crisis was kind of real 00:11:39.220 --> 00:11:42.360 and prevalent. I know a lot of people in frontline 00:11:42.360 --> 00:11:44.799 healthcare were just firefighting and having 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:47.159 that kind of foresight further ahead to understand 00:11:47.159 --> 00:11:49.460 what's coming. they don't always have the capacity 00:11:49.460 --> 00:11:51.759 to see but I think we've really seen that people 00:11:51.759 --> 00:11:55.279 are becoming increasingly worried about the lack 00:11:55.279 --> 00:11:57.980 of availability of antibiotics and their efficacy 00:11:57.980 --> 00:12:01.399 and at the moment they can treat things and they 00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:04.320 can keep their patients alive and I think the 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:07.179 threat that really really minor infections could 00:12:07.179 --> 00:12:09.320 now be the thing that means that they can't see 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:11.139 that patient three to a kind of a good outcome 00:12:11.139 --> 00:12:15.419 is becoming very worrying so yeah it's been pretty 00:12:15.419 --> 00:12:18.000 well received so far. And I think as well, building 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:21.940 on what Carla is saying is that I think AMR and 00:12:21.940 --> 00:12:24.759 our ability to treat infections and prevent infections 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:26.720 in the first place has such a huge knock on effect 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:29.820 to other diseases. So for example, anywhere, 00:12:30.019 --> 00:12:32.059 anything where you're immune compromised, such 00:12:32.059 --> 00:12:34.320 as, you know, cancer treatments, as one example, 00:12:34.820 --> 00:12:38.139 you are going to be at a significantly higher 00:12:38.139 --> 00:12:43.639 risk of infection. and therefore having complications 00:12:43.639 --> 00:12:46.120 as a result of those infections and so it's not 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:49.240 just a case of you know antimicrobial resistance 00:12:49.240 --> 00:12:51.620 affecting you know one area of health care it 00:12:51.620 --> 00:12:53.879 really will affect everything from you know cancer 00:12:53.879 --> 00:12:56.379 treatments to you know surgeries even you know 00:12:56.379 --> 00:12:58.100 things like giving birth like things that we 00:12:58.100 --> 00:13:00.720 really take for granted now and have the potential 00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:03.519 to become really dangerous in the next um in 00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:08.820 the next literally 10 20 30 years. Yeah, the 00:13:08.820 --> 00:13:11.259 current projections, there was like a massive 00:13:11.259 --> 00:13:14.779 study or, you know, big projected figure that 00:13:14.779 --> 00:13:20.080 was put out that was that by 2050, antimicrobial 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:23.759 resistance related mortality will be larger than 00:13:23.759 --> 00:13:26.179 cancer related mortality. So it's going to overtake 00:13:26.179 --> 00:13:27.940 and kind of be up there in terms of leading cause 00:13:27.940 --> 00:13:31.659 of death globally. And it also affects different 00:13:31.659 --> 00:13:34.629 parts of the world differently as well. So it's 00:13:34.629 --> 00:13:37.309 going to really ramp up healthcare inequality. 00:13:38.049 --> 00:13:41.669 So it's a really huge problem. And then the last 00:13:41.669 --> 00:13:43.509 thing I wanted to say is because we made a big 00:13:43.509 --> 00:13:45.889 point about if it works, is that we have great 00:13:45.889 --> 00:13:48.929 lab data. But obviously getting this into the 00:13:48.929 --> 00:13:53.269 market specifically for human healthcare, it's 00:13:53.269 --> 00:13:56.250 a longer road. What we do have coming up actually 00:13:56.250 --> 00:14:01.309 though are two really exciting pilots with veterinary 00:14:01.309 --> 00:14:03.879 hospitals in the UK. So we've got one of those 00:14:03.879 --> 00:14:05.860 currently being set up for urinary catheters 00:14:05.860 --> 00:14:09.159 and another one for IV catheters. So we should 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:11.240 have some real world data, you know, we think 00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:15.460 by next year to give us an indication and initial 00:14:15.460 --> 00:14:17.559 insights into how they're working in the real 00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:19.740 world outside of the lab. So how does it work? 00:14:19.879 --> 00:14:22.379 Do you manufacture yourself or do you, you pented 00:14:22.379 --> 00:14:24.840 the technology and then you give it to manufacturers 00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:26.740 to actually do it the way you think it should 00:14:26.740 --> 00:14:29.629 be done. So how does it work? I think. just going 00:14:29.629 --> 00:14:33.269 to say, can you move closer to the mic? And then 00:14:33.269 --> 00:14:35.830 I think you said something about manufacturing. 00:14:36.549 --> 00:14:39.070 Yes. So who does the manufacturing? So at the 00:14:39.070 --> 00:14:41.289 moment, we would be manufacturing small batches. 00:14:41.289 --> 00:14:44.409 And then, you know, licensing with external partners 00:14:44.409 --> 00:14:46.710 for sterilization and packaging. And, you know, 00:14:46.730 --> 00:14:49.769 that would be the case for the for the pilots. 00:14:50.370 --> 00:14:54.659 But ultimately, we in an ideal world don't actually 00:14:54.659 --> 00:14:56.799 want to manufacture these on a larger scale. 00:14:56.799 --> 00:14:58.720 We don't want to be the manufacturer. I think 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:00.960 the thing with our technology is that it's a 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:04.120 technology that can be incorporated into existing 00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:08.080 medical devices. We are not reinventing the wheel 00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:13.600 when it comes to catheters, for example. So in 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:16.340 an ideal world, what we would love to do is work 00:15:16.340 --> 00:15:19.940 and partner with existing device manufacturers 00:15:19.940 --> 00:15:23.279 and just put our technology effectively. into 00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:26.139 their catheters to offer people an antimicrobial 00:15:26.139 --> 00:15:29.460 version of their favorite brands. And a huge 00:15:29.460 --> 00:15:31.179 reason for that is actually this is all about 00:15:31.179 --> 00:15:33.259 impact for us. We want to have the biggest impact 00:15:33.259 --> 00:15:36.519 possible. And so we think that, you know, rather 00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:39.580 than trying to fight against the giants of the 00:15:39.580 --> 00:15:43.539 world in terms of medical devices, we would much 00:15:43.539 --> 00:15:47.139 prefer to work with them and just provide an 00:15:47.139 --> 00:15:48.600 antimicrobial version of what they're already 00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:50.600 offering, which we think will then increase the 00:15:50.600 --> 00:15:53.129 end user uptake as well. I think in terms of 00:15:53.129 --> 00:15:55.389 what the end users are seeing, it will be much 00:15:55.389 --> 00:15:58.409 easier. For example, if they see from their existing 00:15:58.409 --> 00:16:00.690 brand that there's just an antimicrobial version 00:16:00.690 --> 00:16:03.509 of what we're already using. And we think that 00:16:03.509 --> 00:16:05.970 that will then lead to more impact if more people 00:16:05.970 --> 00:16:09.909 have easy access to them. And how complex is 00:16:09.909 --> 00:16:11.649 this actually? Do you need to go through a lot 00:16:11.649 --> 00:16:13.690 of regulation? Like do you need to get FDA approval, 00:16:13.710 --> 00:16:16.529 for example? Or how does it actually work? Yeah, 00:16:16.529 --> 00:16:19.169 so the regulatory pathway, and I'm not a regulatory 00:16:19.169 --> 00:16:20.409 expert, so you're just going to put that out 00:16:20.409 --> 00:16:22.730 there right now, but it will depend by the sector 00:16:22.730 --> 00:16:28.049 and the region. So the veterinary sector will 00:16:28.049 --> 00:16:29.950 be completely different to the human sector. 00:16:30.230 --> 00:16:32.370 And then for the human sector, my understanding 00:16:32.370 --> 00:16:34.190 is that it goes by region. So for example, it 00:16:34.190 --> 00:16:36.970 would have to pass MHRA regulations for the UK, 00:16:37.669 --> 00:16:41.870 FDA for the US, and so on for each different 00:16:41.870 --> 00:16:45.870 region that the device would be sold in. Yeah. 00:16:46.070 --> 00:16:48.230 And this isn't by you or then by the company 00:16:48.230 --> 00:16:50.929 that actually manufactures the devices? Pardon? 00:16:51.610 --> 00:16:53.450 Is this done by your company or then by the company 00:16:53.450 --> 00:16:55.710 that actually manufactures the devices? Yeah. 00:16:55.909 --> 00:16:59.889 So if we end up finding a partner to partner 00:16:59.889 --> 00:17:02.950 with prior to regulatory pathways, then great. 00:17:03.070 --> 00:17:04.809 And then we'd be more than happy for obviously 00:17:04.809 --> 00:17:06.529 the other company to take that forward with all 00:17:06.529 --> 00:17:09.309 of their expertise. Failing that, if we were 00:17:09.309 --> 00:17:11.529 going to be taking it to market, we would definitely 00:17:11.529 --> 00:17:14.230 have to get an external help. in terms of going 00:17:14.230 --> 00:17:17.450 through those regulatory pathways. But yeah, 00:17:17.549 --> 00:17:19.609 so it definitely wouldn't be just us to try to 00:17:19.609 --> 00:17:23.589 get through MHRA and FDA regulatory pathways. 00:17:23.750 --> 00:17:25.329 And they are constantly evolving and changing 00:17:25.329 --> 00:17:28.809 at the moment as well with governments at the 00:17:28.809 --> 00:17:31.849 moment. And how hard was it to explain this whole 00:17:31.849 --> 00:17:37.450 idea to investors? responses. I think it depends 00:17:37.450 --> 00:17:40.509 on people's kind of previous knowledge of AMR 00:17:40.509 --> 00:17:43.190 and understanding what that is if they're not 00:17:43.190 --> 00:17:47.009 from a medical background. It can be quite difficult 00:17:47.009 --> 00:17:49.450 to kind of explain the gravity of the problem 00:17:49.450 --> 00:17:52.009 and how huge it can be and how impactful this 00:17:52.009 --> 00:17:56.789 kind of technology can be globally. I think once 00:17:56.789 --> 00:17:59.349 you're kind of over that first hurdle of understanding 00:17:59.349 --> 00:18:05.029 how big it is, people have been kind of really 00:18:05.029 --> 00:18:10.049 involved with the idea and very keen to be part 00:18:10.049 --> 00:18:12.369 of understanding it and kind of getting it to 00:18:12.369 --> 00:18:15.569 market. A lot of kind of common question we get 00:18:15.569 --> 00:18:19.029 is if it's so amazing how has nobody invented 00:18:19.029 --> 00:18:22.150 it already? Which just makes me laugh every time 00:18:22.150 --> 00:18:23.829 because I think you could say that about any 00:18:23.829 --> 00:18:28.970 venture ever. But yeah, it's been difficult but 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:31.559 I think once you get past that initial kind of 00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:33.759 understanding, people are so keen to kind of 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:35.819 learn more and be part of it. And I think we're 00:18:35.819 --> 00:18:40.960 improving as well. We have a great set of angel 00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:44.799 investors and advisors, you know, a growing advisory 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:48.559 board and each of them coming from very different 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:50.579 backgrounds as well. And I think having their 00:18:50.579 --> 00:18:52.940 input in kind of what got them initially interested 00:18:52.940 --> 00:18:55.900 has been really valuable for us. So, yeah, I'd 00:18:55.900 --> 00:18:57.579 like to think I've definitely improved since 00:18:57.660 --> 00:19:00.259 uh you know two years ago coming straight off 00:19:00.259 --> 00:19:03.720 the back of a PhD um but yeah I think as Carla 00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:06.000 said I think I think one of the problems is that 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:08.539 you know as we've kind of discussed is that AMR 00:19:08.539 --> 00:19:13.259 is so big it's such a huge problem and it affects 00:19:13.259 --> 00:19:16.160 so many different you know it affects humans 00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:19.680 animals the environment you know it it's almost 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:21.960 like too big for its own good and so I think 00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:24.019 for us it's been really trying to like make our 00:19:24.019 --> 00:19:27.549 messaging more like concise and to the point 00:19:27.549 --> 00:19:31.990 because I think, yeah, it's a bit of an unwieldy. 00:19:34.509 --> 00:19:37.250 And I think because our solution is so simple 00:19:37.250 --> 00:19:39.349 as well, so because the problem is so massive, 00:19:39.630 --> 00:19:42.329 but then our technology and solution is so simple, 00:19:42.710 --> 00:19:44.230 that can be quite difficult for people to get 00:19:44.230 --> 00:19:45.950 their head around, I think, as well. Would you 00:19:45.950 --> 00:19:48.089 have other applications apart from medical devices? 00:19:48.910 --> 00:19:51.829 Like you can put it on surfaces so there's not 00:19:51.829 --> 00:19:54.029 any bacteria growing there or stuff like that. 00:19:54.250 --> 00:19:57.230 Is that a possibility or even a need? There are 00:19:57.230 --> 00:19:59.150 a ton of other applications and that actually 00:19:59.150 --> 00:20:02.869 forms part of our pitch deck. But yeah, so I 00:20:02.869 --> 00:20:05.450 think medical devices for me, obviously, that's 00:20:05.450 --> 00:20:06.809 kind of what got me into all of this. And I think 00:20:06.809 --> 00:20:08.849 that's where the most one of the most significant 00:20:08.849 --> 00:20:13.089 impacts will be. You know, these, you know, catheters 00:20:13.089 --> 00:20:16.549 and endotracheal tubes, orthopedic implants as 00:20:16.549 --> 00:20:19.049 well, huge problems with infections there as 00:20:19.049 --> 00:20:21.740 well. um you know we think there are potential 00:20:21.740 --> 00:20:24.220 in dental applications one that keeps coming 00:20:24.220 --> 00:20:29.240 up is also kids toys or like kids like um makes 00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:32.059 sense yeah they get quite grimy though don't 00:20:32.059 --> 00:20:37.319 they so yeah yeah yeah i was thinking like things 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:39.420 like um you know when you go on the tube and 00:20:39.420 --> 00:20:40.900 then you grab the handle because you need to 00:20:40.900 --> 00:20:42.599 grab the handle otherwise you're gonna fall i'm 00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:44.940 just thinking is there any way that it looks 00:20:44.940 --> 00:20:48.019 like scrammy feels that scrammy uh because that's 00:20:48.019 --> 00:20:49.700 like for me what's the most disgusting things 00:20:49.700 --> 00:20:51.420 on the planet like oh no i need to touch this 00:20:51.420 --> 00:20:54.559 but uh so i don't know i always end up washing 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:57.759 my hands um a lot um but yeah okay i can see 00:20:57.759 --> 00:20:59.819 the cube is particularly disgusting i have noticed 00:20:59.819 --> 00:21:01.819 actually that some of the um i think it was during 00:21:01.819 --> 00:21:05.740 covid actually that some of the escalator files 00:21:05.740 --> 00:21:07.940 that you hold onto they have like this uv thing 00:21:07.940 --> 00:21:10.359 now where it kind of goes through like a uv light 00:21:10.359 --> 00:21:13.519 sterilization um but yeah that would be an interesting 00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:16.839 one for sure Interesting. So literally, the world 00:21:16.839 --> 00:21:19.559 is yours. I mean, the future is bright. You have 00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:21.700 multiple applications for this. And I was just 00:21:21.700 --> 00:21:23.519 thinking, if I'm running in a hospital and you 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:25.400 come come over and say, actually, you know, I 00:21:25.400 --> 00:21:28.000 can reduce your immortality rate by this much 00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:30.200 percent. Like, oh, wow, that's that's quite impressive. 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:32.579 And it's just by changing this little tiny thing. 00:21:32.779 --> 00:21:35.640 That's that's huge. It's actually going to be 00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:39.059 a massive. Yeah. Well, yeah, I think I'm definitely 00:21:39.059 --> 00:21:42.579 all about kind of like small relatively easy 00:21:42.579 --> 00:21:45.299 to implement changes that could have the potential 00:21:45.299 --> 00:21:47.619 for a significant impact. I think, you know, 00:21:47.660 --> 00:21:49.720 I think research and startups and innovation 00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:52.700 in general needs innovation from all different 00:21:52.700 --> 00:21:55.039 aspects. But for me personally, I've never been 00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:58.579 about wanting to, you know, create the next antibiotic 00:21:58.579 --> 00:22:01.039 or like develop the next antibiotic. For example, 00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:04.460 I am much more on the end of this is, you know, 00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:06.960 an area that we could have significant impact 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:08.759 on, but it's a relatively small change, therefore 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:11.569 easier to implement. Um, so for me, I think that's 00:22:11.569 --> 00:22:13.349 definitely what, what it's all about. And that's 00:22:13.349 --> 00:22:15.650 where kind of my focus is directed at rather 00:22:15.650 --> 00:22:20.769 than the kind of massive, uh, kind of more big, 00:22:21.930 --> 00:22:24.690 much wider, uh, targets. And what was, you know, 00:22:25.069 --> 00:22:27.769 what was the worst day for you? You know, growing 00:22:27.769 --> 00:22:30.190 the company, um, for both of you, obviously, 00:22:30.349 --> 00:22:32.369 uh, Carl and Georgia, um, what was the worst 00:22:32.369 --> 00:22:34.970 day? How was that like? How did you manage to 00:22:34.970 --> 00:22:36.730 overcome the worst that you ever had in the company? 00:22:37.069 --> 00:22:38.670 I'd say one of the biggest challenges we had 00:22:38.670 --> 00:22:43.569 when we went through our first raise was accepting 00:22:43.569 --> 00:22:47.130 so many no's before you get to a yes. I think 00:22:47.130 --> 00:22:48.789 they say something like it's you have to get 00:22:48.789 --> 00:22:51.309 through your first hundred no's before you'll 00:22:51.309 --> 00:22:53.789 get to a yes investment. And I think when you've 00:22:53.789 --> 00:22:55.910 put your heart and soul into a company and obviously 00:22:55.910 --> 00:22:57.710 you think it's the greatest idea in the world 00:22:57.710 --> 00:23:00.349 and you get so many no's, it's really hard not 00:23:00.349 --> 00:23:05.240 to take that personally. and I think every time 00:23:05.240 --> 00:23:07.119 you get a no you get feedback and people give 00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:09.220 feedback every time and you're not ever going 00:23:09.220 --> 00:23:11.539 to be able to kind of have the perfect model 00:23:11.539 --> 00:23:14.279 that fits every person that you pitch it to. 00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:16.660 So I think it feels really hard at first and 00:23:16.660 --> 00:23:18.819 you take that quite personally at the beginning 00:23:18.819 --> 00:23:21.640 and then you kind of go on a journey where you 00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:23.380 start to understand that you know not every no 00:23:23.380 --> 00:23:25.319 is a personal no and that it's not going to be 00:23:25.319 --> 00:23:27.200 right for a video and sometimes it's right place 00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:29.380 right time and you grow and learn on that journey 00:23:29.380 --> 00:23:32.509 and and kind of adapt and then once you do get 00:23:32.509 --> 00:23:34.609 your first yes and somebody sort of starts to 00:23:34.609 --> 00:23:36.490 believe in you, it feels like the best feeling 00:23:36.490 --> 00:23:38.589 ever. So yeah, that was that was quite a journey 00:23:38.589 --> 00:23:43.930 to go on. Yeah, I think as well in the same breath 00:23:43.930 --> 00:23:47.809 as that, keeping it real is that that bootstrapping 00:23:47.809 --> 00:23:50.329 journey, I maybe made the mistake of trying to 00:23:50.329 --> 00:23:52.650 do this right off the back of my PhD with absolutely 00:23:52.650 --> 00:23:56.710 no savings. And so just that period where, you 00:23:56.710 --> 00:23:59.759 know, it was like a year and a half of very, 00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:02.299 very minimal income because I was working, you 00:24:02.299 --> 00:24:04.740 know, part -time jobs, but it was, you know, 00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:06.579 I was obviously working on turnover at the same 00:24:06.579 --> 00:24:09.059 time. There's only so many hours in the day. 00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:11.539 So there was a lot of, you know, not being able 00:24:11.539 --> 00:24:13.440 to go out with friends, not being able to go 00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:16.299 out with my partner. And, you know, it was a 00:24:16.299 --> 00:24:18.480 year and a half of, you know, I'm sure my partner 00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:22.019 would echo this as well. A really, really hard 00:24:22.019 --> 00:24:24.960 year because you've got mentally, you know, all 00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:29.859 the millions of no's. And then, just from a life 00:24:29.859 --> 00:24:32.420 perspective as well, you know, just not really 00:24:32.420 --> 00:24:34.319 being able to do anything but kind of sit in 00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:37.839 it. That was really tough. And so maybe that's 00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:39.339 advice for everybody else. Don't be so silly 00:24:39.339 --> 00:24:41.579 to do it with no savings off the back of your 00:24:41.579 --> 00:24:47.279 lowly paid PhD. Would not recommend. So yeah, 00:24:47.400 --> 00:24:49.319 I think that personally was really, really hard. 00:24:51.019 --> 00:24:52.779 post -precede round, I've obviously been able 00:24:52.779 --> 00:24:55.440 to pay myself like a basic salary, which has 00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:57.319 changed everything. And that was, you know, we 00:24:57.319 --> 00:24:58.759 were really thankful that actually that was something 00:24:58.759 --> 00:25:00.700 that our investors brought up as well, because, 00:25:00.980 --> 00:25:03.720 you know, ultimately they want us to be in this 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:06.799 and focused and not, you know, fighting for scraps. 00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:10.799 So yeah, that I think was a big, big challenge 00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:14.559 for me as well in starting this. So what advice 00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:17.160 would you give to people just starting out, especially, 00:25:17.460 --> 00:25:22.369 especially in your area? The best advice I would 00:25:22.369 --> 00:25:27.049 have liked to put back then was, you'll never 00:25:27.049 --> 00:25:28.809 know the answer to everything and that's okay. 00:25:29.049 --> 00:25:31.250 So surround yourself with the best team of people 00:25:31.250 --> 00:25:33.230 and advisors and people who've done it before, 00:25:33.349 --> 00:25:36.650 people who've made mistakes, people who are willing 00:25:36.650 --> 00:25:38.789 to share their experiences and their journeys 00:25:38.789 --> 00:25:42.589 and people that you can trust in that essentially. 00:25:43.710 --> 00:25:46.250 So keep your kind of ears open to all the advice 00:25:46.250 --> 00:25:47.829 you can take. Some of it will be with a pinch 00:25:47.829 --> 00:25:51.789 of salt and some of it will be Some people will 00:25:51.789 --> 00:25:53.430 have a motive behind that, so you've kind of 00:25:53.430 --> 00:25:54.950 got to be a bit savvy about where it's coming 00:25:54.950 --> 00:25:58.609 from, but to try and surround yourself with people 00:25:58.609 --> 00:26:01.130 who have experience, because every single day 00:26:01.130 --> 00:26:02.869 in a startup, you'll be doing something that 00:26:02.869 --> 00:26:05.049 you haven't done before, that you have no experience 00:26:05.049 --> 00:26:07.009 in, and having people around you that you can 00:26:07.009 --> 00:26:09.710 reach out to, ask for advice from, and learn 00:26:09.710 --> 00:26:12.329 from, has been absolutely invaluable for us. 00:26:12.769 --> 00:26:14.910 Yeah, completely. You completely agree. You completely 00:26:14.910 --> 00:26:16.490 echo that. And I think actually that's probably 00:26:16.490 --> 00:26:18.910 when it started to all change, is when we had 00:26:19.900 --> 00:26:23.539 a few different advisors or people that are either 00:26:23.539 --> 00:26:25.720 in startups or, you know, we had legal advice 00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:29.480 as well. And that really began to kind of change 00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:32.940 the change the tides for us. And I think as well, 00:26:33.140 --> 00:26:37.519 it's it's hard if you are a medical, sciencey 00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:40.559 focused company, because what we were finding 00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:43.119 was that it would be, you know, we're too early, 00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:45.849 too early, we're too early. Obviously, we're 00:26:45.849 --> 00:26:47.670 not an app. I can't just sit on my computer and 00:26:47.670 --> 00:26:50.289 release a product. Obviously, that's oversimplifying 00:26:50.289 --> 00:26:53.230 it. I don't want to be insulting to people developing 00:26:53.230 --> 00:26:57.609 software, but there's a lot more front -end costs. 00:26:57.670 --> 00:27:00.990 We need to set up a lab and we need to hire people 00:27:00.990 --> 00:27:05.109 and we need a lot of legal advice. That all costs 00:27:05.109 --> 00:27:11.009 a lot of money upfront. It's hard because you 00:27:11.009 --> 00:27:13.029 are going to be too early for a lot of people 00:27:13.029 --> 00:27:14.960 that you know, especially when you're looking 00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:18.019 at an app that might be generating millions in 00:27:18.019 --> 00:27:21.319 revenue, compared to your kind of like idea for 00:27:21.319 --> 00:27:23.220 a medical device that is going to take investors 00:27:23.220 --> 00:27:25.240 like 10 years to get their money back, it's, 00:27:25.240 --> 00:27:26.920 you know, it's quite clear which one's looking 00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:30.380 the better options for investors. And so, yeah, 00:27:30.380 --> 00:27:33.019 I think for us, it was, you know, communicating 00:27:33.019 --> 00:27:36.619 the impact, getting to know us personally as 00:27:36.619 --> 00:27:38.500 well. I think we've heard from invest, especially 00:27:38.500 --> 00:27:40.339 early stage investors that they're investing 00:27:40.339 --> 00:27:43.390 in the people. as much as they are like the company 00:27:43.390 --> 00:27:45.589 and the science and the idea. So yeah, I think 00:27:45.589 --> 00:27:51.509 those two are probably the biggest things. And 00:27:51.509 --> 00:27:52.809 that everything takes longer than you think. 00:27:53.009 --> 00:27:56.670 So much longer than you think it will. Triple 00:27:56.670 --> 00:28:00.029 your time. Yeah, I don't think most people realize 00:28:00.029 --> 00:28:01.670 that it's actually going to take a long, long 00:28:01.670 --> 00:28:03.230 time to get funding and to actually get started, 00:28:03.349 --> 00:28:06.269 isn't it? It was so funny. I remember us literally 00:28:06.269 --> 00:28:08.349 sitting, registering the company, having a glass 00:28:08.349 --> 00:28:10.779 of prosecco. celebrating being like, this is 00:28:10.779 --> 00:28:13.299 going to be great. And we were like, yes, it 00:28:13.299 --> 00:28:14.960 will probably just plays around in like a couple 00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:21.180 months. Obviously, and that's a really funny 00:28:21.180 --> 00:28:24.039 graph. And it's basically kind of like the founders 00:28:24.039 --> 00:28:25.940 start up journey where it's like, you're super 00:28:25.940 --> 00:28:27.519 optimistic, and everything seems like it's going 00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:29.940 well. And then it all kind of crashes and burns. 00:28:29.940 --> 00:28:31.920 And for us, it was like March, we were like, 00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:34.200 this is amazing. But you know, it's exciting. 00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:37.720 We were doing like accelerators. And then basically 00:28:37.720 --> 00:28:40.680 we got like a really big no towards the end of 00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:43.900 the year. And we had other potential angels that 00:28:43.900 --> 00:28:45.220 were going to potentially invest off the back 00:28:45.220 --> 00:28:47.779 of this big no. Basically we got the big no. 00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:50.519 Everything else fell apart. And then I spent 00:28:50.519 --> 00:28:55.339 three weeks in bed on the sofa feeling like, 00:28:55.460 --> 00:28:58.619 what? Like, no, had a bit of a crisis about it. 00:28:58.740 --> 00:29:00.799 And then January came around. Carla was like, 00:29:01.140 --> 00:29:04.519 get up, what are you doing? And we got started 00:29:04.519 --> 00:29:06.960 again. And actually it was, I had to say it was 00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:08.579 probably March again, where everything really 00:29:08.579 --> 00:29:10.720 started kicking off seriously. We spent time 00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:12.900 reformulating the business plan, reformulating 00:29:12.900 --> 00:29:15.380 the deck, completely kind of changing everything, 00:29:16.160 --> 00:29:17.799 getting back on our feet and then out we go again. 00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:21.039 So yeah, it was a journey. And then we got our 00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:24.960 first big yes. And how important was it to actually 00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:27.140 be able to bounce back ideas from one another? 00:29:27.539 --> 00:29:31.369 Definitely. I do not know. how I would, you know, 00:29:31.430 --> 00:29:34.450 I don't know how you would do it alone. Even 00:29:34.450 --> 00:29:36.910 just from a sanity point of view. Obviously, 00:29:36.910 --> 00:29:39.609 it really helps to have co -founders that are 00:29:39.609 --> 00:29:41.190 different in background, coming from different 00:29:41.190 --> 00:29:44.529 perspectives. You don't just want two people 00:29:44.529 --> 00:29:48.450 saying yes to each other. So yeah, really important. 00:29:49.289 --> 00:29:51.230 I always like to ask you this question, which 00:29:51.230 --> 00:29:53.769 is the last book you read or the most impactful 00:29:53.769 --> 00:29:58.019 book you read for both of you. What was it? I'm 00:29:58.019 --> 00:30:00.859 not gonna lie, Ricardo, I am not a reader. This 00:30:00.859 --> 00:30:03.799 is gonna be really controversial. I am a podcast 00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:08.779 listener, and I am a Real Housewives watcher. 00:30:09.480 --> 00:30:11.019 Interesting. Which one? Because there's different 00:30:11.019 --> 00:30:13.039 ones, right? There's one in Belver Hills, there's 00:30:13.039 --> 00:30:14.359 another one in London, or something like that? 00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:19.160 Everywhere. Beverly Hills, Atlanta, Orange County. 00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:24.539 I could talk about this. The important takeaway 00:30:24.539 --> 00:30:27.329 from that is... Do your taxes correctly. Do not 00:30:27.329 --> 00:30:32.710 commit taxes. Unexpected. And what about yourself? 00:30:32.829 --> 00:30:35.569 I know what I'm talking about. And Carla, you 00:30:35.569 --> 00:30:39.710 also watch the same show? I do, but I'm also 00:30:39.710 --> 00:30:44.690 not an avid reader. Which is not a great answer, 00:30:44.789 --> 00:30:47.630 I know. I read a lot, and then when I did university 00:30:47.630 --> 00:30:50.509 and when you're forced to read a lot of what 00:30:50.509 --> 00:30:53.630 you've got to do for your studying, I lost the 00:30:53.630 --> 00:30:57.970 love for reading. And then I think when you're 00:30:57.970 --> 00:31:00.809 kind of at a laptop all day, kind of plugging 00:31:00.809 --> 00:31:04.230 away, just getting your business off the ground. 00:31:04.599 --> 00:31:07.079 I just want to like zone out when I go home. 00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:10.160 So I listen to a podcast, I call it a podcast 00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:12.380 and stomp, which I do most of the time. So I'll 00:31:12.380 --> 00:31:14.339 go for a long walk and put a podcast on. But 00:31:14.339 --> 00:31:16.400 yeah, it's been a while since I read an actual 00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:19.180 physical book. I mean, the answer I should have 00:31:19.180 --> 00:31:21.740 said is that I've been actually recommended lots 00:31:21.740 --> 00:31:27.119 of different books recently. There's one about 00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:28.819 spin selling. I've been trying to learn more 00:31:28.819 --> 00:31:32.619 about deal negotiations. You can always pick 00:31:32.619 --> 00:31:34.480 up The Art of the Deal by Donald Trump. Apparently 00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:36.539 that's quite famous or quite popular right now. 00:31:38.680 --> 00:31:40.859 There's a book called The Art of the Deal by 00:31:40.859 --> 00:31:43.039 Donald Trump. I think it was released in the 00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:45.579 90s or something like that. Very good book apparently, 00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:50.160 very effective. So now as we get closer to the 00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:52.079 end of the podcast, if people want to reach out 00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:53.819 and find out more about the wonderful things 00:31:53.819 --> 00:31:55.619 you're doing. What's the best way of doing so? 00:31:56.220 --> 00:31:59.339 You can find us on LinkedIn. I think we're under 00:31:59.339 --> 00:32:01.519 Zonova Tech, or you can find me personally on 00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:04.980 LinkedIn, or Carla on LinkedIn. And you can also 00:32:04.980 --> 00:32:07.319 get in touch through our website as well, www 00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:10.119 .zonovatech .com. And we also have Instagram, 00:32:10.579 --> 00:32:13.779 also at Zonova Tech. So yeah, I'd say those three 00:32:13.779 --> 00:32:16.519 are our main channels. Carla and Georgia, it's 00:32:16.519 --> 00:32:18.079 been an absolute pleasure having you here. Thank 00:32:18.079 --> 00:32:19.859 you so much for your time. Thank you for having 00:32:19.859 --> 00:32:23.660 us. Thanks very much. The podcast is also sponsored 00:32:23.660 --> 00:32:26.339 by Notion .so. Notion is offering six months 00:32:26.339 --> 00:32:28.920 for free for new users. Make sure you check out 00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:31.700 our website, the startupevents .co .uk to read 00:32:31.700 --> 00:32:34.259 them this offer. This podcast is also sponsored 00:32:34.259 --> 00:32:37.839 by startupnetworks .co .uk. Startupnetworks, 00:32:37.880 --> 00:32:40.339 it's an online forum where you can find all the 00:32:40.339 --> 00:32:42.619 resources you need to run your startup, from 00:32:42.619 --> 00:32:44.920 grants to investors to tips and tricks on how 00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:47.220 to be successful in your startup. This podcast 00:32:47.220 --> 00:32:51.259 is also sponsored by Odev Tech. ODEVTECH is your 00:32:51.259 --> 00:32:53.559 premier software development partner. Make sure 00:32:53.559 --> 00:32:56.779 you check them out at odev .tech