Welcome to the Innovation Conversation, a podcast
about innovators, both in business and real life.
Hosted by myself, Ricardo Rescual and Harry McCona.
This podcast is also sponsored by ODEV Tech.
ODEV Tech is your premier software development
partner. Make sure you check them out at odev
.tech. The podcast is also sponsored by Notion
.so. Notion is offering six months for free for
new users. Make sure you check out our website,
thestoreofevents .co .uk to read in the software.
Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Innovation
Conversation. Today we are joined by John Stampleton.
John, welcome to the podcast. Carter, thanks
for having me on. I'm delighted to be here. It's
a pleasure having you here. Now, John, you're
a man who doesn't need any introduction, but
still I'll kind of ask you to do one just for
our listeners back home. Yeah, no problem. I've
got fingers in many pies and I've done lots of
things in the last... 40 years so I'm happy to
kind of explain that a little bit but I guess
I'm the food guy yeah I'm the guy who's probably
set up a number of businesses three in fact in
the food space and the food and drink space and
if I take you away back to 1987 believe it or
not that's when I came out of university I set
up my first business and that was New Covent
Garden Soup Company which was those in the UK
well recognized the brand that's an example of
it basically fresh soup in a cart you know I
have one it's an empty one right obviously because
it's fresh But I have one sitting next to me
here usually, so I can use it as a prop. But
that was, yeah, in 1987 we set up, we were the
first to make fresh soup, yeah, believe it or
not. I mean, fresh soup is so ubiquitous now,
it's a thing, it's a category people expected
almost. But back then all liquid soup came in
a can, so we were the first to put it in a carton,
we were the first to make fresh soup, first to
put it in the chiller, and everything went with
that. We were totally, we were crazy, we were
wrong, we were stupid, and we did our best to
prove everybody else wrong. And that... ran for
about 10 years. So we set it up, as I say, from
zero from scratch. We were the first to do it.
And we sold that business to a company called
Daniels in the food trade in 1998. And I spent
a lot of my time in 1998, 1987, going to the
States, setting up another business, which was
really very similar, but a separate business.
It was fresh soup in a carton for the US market.
And that was called Glencoe Foods. Now, unfortunately,
that didn't work. It didn't work, even though
if anybody in the world knew anything about fresh
soup, it was probably me. And we can come back
to that and talk about that in a minute. But
my third business then was a company called Little
Dish. And I have one of those, believe it or
not, as well. It's an old packaging, right? But
it's basically healthy, convenient, tasty meals
and then snacks for kids, for young kids, not
for adults, not for babies, but for kids. And
again, it was a niche market. And again, people
told us we were crazy, that there would be no
need for this. And we were the first to do it.
And we built that category. We set it up in 20.
excuse me, 2007. And then we saw that in 2017.
So that was another 10 -year kind of adventure,
did I? And that was the first phase of my career,
I feel like. I call that my early career. I also
call it my shit sandwich, regardless, because
it was a wonderful experience. It always is when
you set up a company to start with and a great
adventure and a tiger by the tail. Learned a
lot in the first business, Newcombe and Garden
Soup Company. And the third business... similar
in terms of commercial exit. It was great. It
was really good. I guess that's one way to term
success, not the only way. But everything that
happened in the middle of this five years in
the States, I wanted to experience, but it didn't
work. And that's the shit bit. And I'm a great
believer that success is a lousy teacher. And
I learned an awful lot more from the shit bit,
frankly. I learned an awful lot more from the
failure. I learned a lot more from those five
years in the middle, in the States. And I did
probably the two 10 year periods either side.
And that takes us to 2017. And since I've been
doing lots of other things, we can talk about
that in a moment. But basically, I help small
businesses to grow. I've got fingers in different
pies. I'm more on the investment side, I suppose,
now. As you move through, that's probably meant
that I'm poacher -turned -gamekeeper a bit. I've
always been on the side of the entrepreneur.
I guess once an entrepreneur, always an entrepreneur,
frankly. But I know how that works. I know that
how it is. I can sympathize very much with the
The difficulties entrepreneur has in terms of
dealing with all the challenges and setbacks
and adversity, frankly. But I tend to sit more
on the other side of the table now. I invest
in businesses, I advise businesses, I mentor
entrepreneurs, and I do a number of other things.
But that's probably enough as an introduction
for you, Ricardo. It's a massive introduction.
I have like tons of questions now. OK, so let's
start in the beginning, I guess. How do you come
up with ideas? Are you like a super fanatic?
How did they come to be? No, I'm not a soup fanatic
at all. Well, I became one, I guess. But no,
I was here out of university, right? So I didn't
know anything about anything, frankly. And nobody
does. And I think that's OK. Ignorance is bliss.
I met this guy called Andrew Palmer. Andrew was
this archetypal entrepreneur. I learned a lot
from him. He was great. And he had the idea.
He had the idea of fresh soup. There's a whole
story about him kind of revelation. He was enjoying
a typical English bank holiday weekend in August,
teeming rain, freezing cold, and he was sailing
in a boat off the coast of Southampton by the
Isle of Wight. And he came in and his mom had
come to stay for the weekend. He used to live
there. And basically, he went shivering up to
the bath to warm up. And his mom kind of went
downstairs to figure out what maybe they might
have for lunch. And I couldn't find really anything
but a few moldy old vegetables in a basket. And
she put it together, made some fresh soup. And
he was sitting there warming up in the bath and
got this wonderful aroma. a fresh shiv coming
upstairs. And he thought, what's that? Has my
mom got a takeout? There's no takeout anywhere
near here. So he came downstairs. And she said,
here we go. Here's some soup. And he said, oh,
you brought that with you. I don't know. I tried
to find whatever you had here. And I put it all
together and made some soup out of it. So I could
do it. And he goes, that's a fantastic idea.
Wow. And I gave him the kind of thought. I wonder.
if we can bring that to the masses, I wonder
if we can actually bring that to the market.
And he was a stockbroker, he had no knowledge
about the food industry and he met me in Reading
University and there's a whole story with that
as well. I went to Reading University to study
food science and basically we just got together
and the way we got together was Reading was a
centre of excellence for food which is why I
was there and Andrew came to the university to
ask the guys there about how you make fresh soup.
And of course, he was asking the wrong people.
He was asking academics an entrepreneurial question.
And they looked at him like he had two heads
and said, it's a really stupid idea. Why would
you want to do that? Basically, right back there
on the other side of the store, there's a location
that already exists. It's called a soup aisle.
Why would you want to mess with it? And he was
thinking, no, no, I want to make fresh soup.
And he wanted to know how to make fresh soup.
And he wanted to know, from a technological point
of view, how he might do that. And then he kind
of didn't really know what to do with them, and
they said, well, this Irish guy finished going
off his master's degree here on university, so
you might want to go and talk to him. I honestly
think they were just trying to get rid of him.
And so we met up. Yeah, we met up, and we met
down at the pub for lunch, and we were kicked
out at closing time, because we spent the entire
afternoon, the entire evening arguing, talking,
discussing, like, what is this fresh soup thing,
and how might it work? And, you know, question
after question with some sort of half -assed
answer. And we didn't really have any answers.
So at the end of the conversation, we had more
question marks than answers. So we thought, you
know what, we get on really well, and we compliment
each other very well. And why don't we just go
and do it? So that required us to have a new
company. A lot of time, good ideas come out of
the pub. But mostly, they stay in the pub, right?
And people kind of think, oh, wonderful, I could
do this, I could do that. I never really do anything
about it. But this is what actually managed to
get out of the pub. And we set the business up.
1987, like a long time ago. Ignorance is bliss.
We had no idea what we were doing. We had no
idea what we were luring ourselves in for. It
was a huge adventure. We're a bunch of happy
amateurs, frankly, trying to figure this out
on the go. But that was the 10 years that kind
of took us through, and it was very successful,
of course, despite us trying to kill the business
every so often because we made some silly mistakes.
But thankfully, no terminal mistakes. You know,
we were making up what went along. We were reacting
to huge demand. We had got something right. Obviously,
putting fresh soup in a carton. It appealed to
the consumer despite everybody telling us it
was a crazy idea. So, yeah, that's how soup came
about. I was in the wrong place at the wrong
time, Ricardo. To be honest, I'm a big fan of
the company still. I still go and buy those soup
all the time because it's just super tasty. But,
I mean, how should I put this? At the time there
was no other alternative right apart from teen
soups. That was it. So how did the market? I
mean, what was their the response to it was the
market saying, you know, we kind of like this
even the supermarkets I'd even managed to get
in supermarkets in the first place while managing
that they probably said there's on demand for
this There's about three or four questions in
there. So let me Let me try to split that up.
I mean, you're absolutely right. I mean, first
of all, we had a tiger by the tail I think I
said already it was a huge huge success. We didn't
know that at the time You have to get on the
shelf before you can get off the shelf. And that
was a huge challenge for us. And we didn't know
anything about anything. We were just two guys
who had an idea, and a crazy idea of that. In
fact, everybody, like I say, told us we had a
stupid idea. So there were probably 20 things
who were told were wrong about our proposition.
And I'll just give you three of them very quickly.
The guys at Reading University told us we were
crazy, and we were mad, and we'd kill somebody.
They said there's a reason liquid supers in a
can. It's to make it safe. It's a process. highly
processed. You've got like 80 in one shelf life.
But the problem with that is it kills the nutritional
composition and it kills the flavor. You've got
to put other stuff into it. Think of tomato soup.
It doesn't taste of tomato soup at all coming
out of a can. because you put a lot of sugar
into it and it caramelizes. Kids love it, therefore,
it's sweet. But it doesn't taste of real fresh
tomatoes or basil or whatever else you want to
put into it. We wanted to deliver a product that
tastes funny enough of the ingredients you put
into it, not the process you use to make it safe
or give it a long shelf life. But the technologists
and the scientists, of which I was one, I suppose,
because I'd studied that there, they said, you're
crazy. You would kill somebody. It needs to be
made safe. That's why it's put in a can. And,
you know, we clearly didn't want to kill anybody,
but we thought there's got to be a way to make
it safe without killing all the ingredients and
killing all the flavour and killing all the nutritional
composition. So we developed a process. I guess
that's what I did initially. Developed a process
to make it safe, but fresh. And that was a pasteurized
process. So we didn't overheat it like you do
in a canning process. We gently heated it. So
instead of 18 months, we had 18 days. And that
was perfectly adequate, more than adequate for
the chiller. And then they said the chiller.
The retailers would never let you into the chiller
because the chiller is their space. It's coveted.
It's much more own label though in those days.
You get brands in the chiller these days, but
you really get own label like Waitrose and Tesco's
products. And they covet that space because it's
their space. And that's true. They did. But they
didn't let us in. Obviously, they gave us an
opportunity. Waitrose were the first to give
us an opportunity. And they then said, this was
a really interesting thing. They said, consumers
will hate the carton or won't understand the
carton. They'll think, carton? Soup doesn't really
go together. Milk goes in a carton or juice might
go in a carton. This is a fresh carton by the
way, not a sterilised carton. So they said the
consumer would be all confused by that and in
fact the consumer loved the carton. Once they
understood we had fresh soup written on there,
once they understood it was fresh soup in a chiller,
that's weird for sure, but then taste it, bring
it home and lock your socks off. It would be
nothing else. It would be as good as you make
yourself, as good as you get in a restaurant.
That was the whole idea. And then I had the convenience
that you don't need to make a juice out. That
was the whole point about it here. So that was
the innovation, I suppose. The conventional wisdom
was going down the soup aisle, the existing soup
aisle, and buying in a can. But we had the courage
of our conviction, if you like, in that we wanted
to do something different. We had consumer insight
to tell us we were right, despite everybody else
telling us we were wrong. I'm quite bold. Did
you raise any investment for the company? Oh
yeah, we sure did. You can't do this on your
own. You can't really grow a branded product
on its own anyway. You always have to invest
ahead of the curve. You always have to invest
more money in the business than the business
is throwing off because the business doesn't
throw off enough to invest at a steady enough
rate so you can grow quickly. Our plan, by the
way, was always to exit. So we were always going
to exit. We thought five years, it took us 10
years. You can't do it in five years. You can't
really do it in less than eight years. Otherwise,
you're leaving value on the table. But we did
want to exit, which is really critical in terms
of getting investors on board. Because you have
to have an exit opportunity for investors to
come in and come out. They have to have a return
on investment argument. So if you want to set
up a family -run business and a legacy business
and something you want to keep forever, it's
very difficult to get investment. Because how
do you get investors out once they're in? But
we had that plan. And people ask me sometimes,
how do you sell your baby type of thing because
you've set it up. I think, well, that was always
the plan. Andrew as well, we always wanted to
set up a business and sell it. We were a bit
naive about how that might take, but we did set
it up for 10 years. So we spoke to a number of
different sources of finance. There was no crowdfunding
back in those days. So it was really kind of
limited, friends and family to start with. And
then there was no real angel investors either,
although we had a few. We went straight into
BC and we got Apex. who are a multinational huge
international conglomerate in terms of investment
platform now and even then they were quite large
but what they said to us yeah we like you guys
and I've really understood why they believed
us because we were lots of question marks on
our own mind but they said we get behind you
just go get a listing first. Getting a listing
means get it listed in a wholesaler. sorry, in
a retailer. So we went about thinking who would
be the best one. And back in those days, and
even probably now still Waitrose is the one you
go to, too. They like to give the new guys a
chance. They like a point of difference from
the other retailers, not as big as the other
retailers. So we went to them. And I remember
the meeting we had with them was really weird.
We went to kind of pitch our product. We didn't
know what we were doing. But we were told beforehand
that retailers keep their cards close to their
chest. They don't really let you know, even if
they want you. My waiters were completely different.
They said, yeah, sure. We'd love to have you
on board. And they were thinking, OK, like when?
This was like May, I think, or April or May.
And they said, September. And there's one thing
I knew about soup was it's going to be very seasonal.
So I thought we had to be in for the next season.
So September sounded great. So I said, yes, we
can do that. But we didn't have a factory. And
you can't really do it in that short time. You
can't build a factory in short notice. And Apex
had told us, if we get a listing, we'd get the
money to build a factory. But of course, you
need a factory to get the listing, to build a
launch. So we had this kind of catch -22. But
Waitrose gave us the opportunity. So we said,
yes. And then we figured out, we went down to
the pub for a celebration -y drink. And a lot
of New Covent Garden was celebrated around the
pub, by the way, as you can tell. But we were
sitting there thinking, this is great. But the
elephant in the room was there thinking, how
are you going to actually deliver? How are you
going to do this? So we had a kind of a research
station in Reading, which is not very far away
from where Waitrose were based, still are, in
Bracknell. They could have come to see what we
were doing and they would have closed us down
because it was such a small Heath Robinson type
of outlet. It really was a research station.
And we just started to sell from there. We started
to produce from there while we built our factory
in London. We went back to APAC, said we have
the listing. They said, really? Yeah, we can
list in September. But we need to build a factory
to supply. And so they gave us the money to build
the factory. which was a big step because we
didn't have any money and we didn't really know
anything about any of this and they were really
supporting us based on we knew what we were talking
about. But they thought we had a good idea like
we did. So we built the factory in parallel with
running, supplying Waitrose and really, to be
honest, the facility we had in Reading was very
small and we were bursting at the seams and doing
all sorts of things we really shouldn't be doing.
Like I say, if Waitrose had come to look at us,
they probably would have... said you can't supply
waitress here and they would have been right
but if you're an entrepreneur you're trying to
find solutions to all this and we had a way out
we had we had a way through here so we supplied
waitress for a couple of months out of the out
of the existing facility wouldn't even call it
a factory and we built our bigger factory in
london and then we can switch over later in the
following year when that was ready so it was
a bit of a crazy time but it was it worked for
us and it got us through and you never have all
the answers ready you never have all the answers
in it in the sequence available to us you have
to try to run through and make the best you probably
can with what you've got. But we had a promise
of a listing and a promise of money for a factory,
maybe the wrong way around, but that's what we
needed. And that's what allowed us to be successful
in the early years. And what was the biggest
struggle you had growing up the company? Ha!
You wouldn't believe it. We thought we'd have
all sorts of problems with the brand and listings
and retailing and all those other stuff but the
biggest problem of all, and I'll just get the
carton here again, the biggest problem of all
was putting soup into the carton. It was as simple
as that. We didn't anticipate this and it almost
caught us out. We thought, you know, okay, soup
has never been put in a carton before but how
difficult can it be? And the answer is really
difficult and I really wish we'd figured this
out beforehand because it causes an awful lot
of grief. But the basic problem is that Soup
is not just liquid. What was in these cartons
before was liquid like milk and cold milk. We
filled hot for technical reasons to give it a
shelf life, give it that pasteurization. And
when you've got hot liquid, it's very, very non
-viscous. You know, it's very watery. The warmer
it is, the less viscous it is. And you've got
bits in it as well. It's not just liquid. And
you've got to get the same number of bits in
the carton and you've got to fill it. as quickly
as you can. So let me use this analogy. It's
kind of like you've got three egg cups, right?
Egg cups. And you've got a big bucket of hot
boiling water. And your job is to pour into the
egg cups, right up to the top, to that level
of the top, into each egg cup. Fill up the egg
cup with soup. But get the same number of...
particulates we call it, pieces of carrot or
pieces of onion or pieces of potato into each
egg cup. I mean it's a crazy idea, who would
have thought it up except that we thought it
was going to be easy. So that whole technological
challenge of getting particular distribution
you know obviously you buy a carton when it has
the right number of bits in it you know soup
without bits is okay there's lots of creamy soups
etc but a lot of soups with bits in it too and
the consumer loved minestrone and loved chicken
soup and the bigger the bits the better in some
in some regard so they loved this whole idea
but it was a real challenge for us to actually
physically put you know we had soup on the wall
soup on the ceiling and soup on the floor and
no bloody soup in the carton and lots and lots
of days and we were tearing our hair out trying
to find you know we raised a little bit of money
to get us through to do this test to get to prove
that we could do it and you know demonstrate
it to the retailer and then get more money from
Apex and We ran out of money, you know, and it
probably took us, it took us, it did actually
take us 18 months to perfect this process. And
all the while, the money was running out, so
you could see this closing window opportunity,
and we just needed to get through, and we weren't
quite sure we were ever gonna make it. So, everything
else was put on hold until we solved our problem,
to get a proper amount of soup into the carton,
cleanly sealed, shelf life, safe. We didn't want
to kill anybody again. and prove time over time
again that was going to work. It took us a lot
longer to do that than we anticipated and we
lost the whole season, you know, because it seems
not right. We're in time to get that right. Luckily,
we got that right before we went to Atros, but
it could have easily been the end of the company
before it even began. I can imagine the stress
you must have been under because that's quite
stressful, isn't it? You don't know. Which way
is going to go? I mean, I see if you're telling
a story and it's a lovely story because everybody
goes, oh yeah, because everybody knows Newcomen
Garden Soup Company and of course it worked because
he wouldn't be on the shelf if it didn't work.
But back then you don't know it's going to work.
You don't know. All these problems that people
have and they tell you about them later, they
go, oh, that's nice. That's a struggle. But you
know it worked. Whereas when you're in the middle
of it, right sitting in the middle of soup all
over you, you don't know. And you're kind of
thinking. A lot of time you're thinking it won't
work, or if there's a solution here it'll be
too late, and I'll run out of money, run out
of time, or the retailers will lose patience,
or our investors will lose patience, and you
see you've got all these people around you relying
on you to do what you thought was pretty straightforward,
and you've committed to doing it, you've said
it is straightforward, I just need to get this
bit done, and you know, you're always selling,
aren't you? You're always selling your business,
your idea, your concept, yourself, you're always
selling. And the problem is you have to sell
this concept to yourself, too, at times. You've
got to sell to yourself and convince yourself.
I think a lot of the time, the little guy who
sits up here banging in your head saying, it
won't work, it won't work, it won't work, he's
always there. You've just got to quieten him
down. But when you're in the pit of the valley
of desperation, if you like, and you can't really
see a way out and you don't know for sure, this
guy gets louder and louder and louder. and you
sit there going, this was a really stupid idea,
yeah? And that takes a lot of, I don't know,
perseverance and resilience and what you might
want to call it. I don't know. But luckily, you
know, I wouldn't be sitting here otherwise, would
I? But luckily we came to the other end. And
well then, so and then you trying to move the
operations to the US, how did that came about
and how did that go? Well, it was a separate
business completely, Ricardo. Actually, we sold
the business in Oh 1997, well January 98 we sold
the business. I was spending 97, it was a really
weird year for me. It was kind of a schizophrenic
year. I was spending all that time selling the
business in the UK and at the same time setting
up a completely separate business in the US.
And we left for a particular reason. We needed
to get out, we needed to have our shareholders
to get out. It wasn't just launching a new...
subsidiary or a new range of products in the
US, a complete separate business. So that was
different. So I physically moved out to California
in what must have been February 1998 to continue
with the setting up of that business. Like I
say, if anybody knew anything about Fresh Soup,
it would have had to be me because... New Covent
Garden Soup Company. We were the only fresh soup
company then. There were others too, but we had
pioneered the whole thing. We were the only ones
in cartons, yeah, for a whole bunch of reasons.
And we wanted to be in cartons again in the US.
I don't have a US carton here, but basically
it was very similar. So it was a different business,
different shareholding structure. A lot was different,
but a lot was the same. And I got out there to
raise money, to raise awareness, set up a business.
build a factory, which in hindsight was probably
a mistake, but build a factory because we had
this technology, which we had perfected over
time. And of course, the U .S. in a very litigious
country, I was very apprehensive about outsourcing
that and getting somebody else to do it and letting
our IP maybe be available to others. In hindsight,
hindsight's wonderful, but in hindsight, it probably
was a big mistake because it took a lot of money,
and that was one of the reasons why we ran out
of money, took a lot of money to build a factory.
We didn't get the rate of sale quickly enough
to offset the overheads that we had, like we
did in the UK. The UK was much more successful
in that regard in the early years. So we could
cover our overheads more quickly and then it
could come down and grow. Whereas in the US it
was different. A lot of things went wrong in
the US which were outside of our control and
some things went wrong which were inside of our
control. It's always a way. Never one thing,
it's a combination of factors. And the stuff
that was outside of our control was like we were
in... San Francisco. This is outside San Francisco
in a factory there and we had some US based shareholders
and of course those days 1998 -2003 I was there,
was all about dot com. So nobody was anyway interested
in soup or food, it was just non -sexy. Dot com
was very sexy. So we had no real interest from
our investors we had out there to follow on,
to invest more money. They might have listened
to our argument, they might have, but they were
really distracted with the dot com phenomenon
out there. So that was kind of outside of our
control. And also a business tried to buy us
as well. We were very kind of apprehensive about
that. A company called Best Foods who own the
Knorr or Knorr brand. They wanted to put Knorr
into Fresh. And I was very apprehensive about
that. I thought they were trying to find out
what our technology is and do it themselves.
Anyway, it took us a long time, but we realized
they're very genuine. Until the point we got
to sign to them, almost, Unilever came in and
bought Best Foods and suddenly basically cancelled
all M &A activity. And we had lost a lot of time
talking to these guys and being distracted by
this whole potential sale process. And we lost
two seasons and it's very seasonal again. So
lots of things went wrong that we probably could
have done something about. Lots of things were
outside of our control. In the end of the day
though, it's like they have a different... what
I call triangulation between quality convenience
and price in the US. And they have big refrigerators
and they buy stock twice a week. And their convenience
is, they believe that frozen food is very convenient.
They weren't thinking that this is ultimately
in the UK then and even still now is extremely
convenient. Their perception of convenience is
different. Quality is different. So we didn't
get that right. Ultimately, we weren't getting
what we call the rate of sale, the churn, the
number of units per store per week on an ongoing
basis wasn't as high as we needed it to be, like
I said earlier, to offset our overheads. But
like I said earlier, success is a lazy teacher,
but when you've got failure, you're very exposed.
And I learned a lot about soup, about the state,
about business, of course, but I learned a lot
about me, because you're sitting in the middle
of the guy who... brought it all together. And
it's very exciting bringing it all together,
selling the idea to shareholders, to retailers,
to staff members as well. But when all that goes
bottom up, then it's a very different matter.
And the enthusiasm you have when you're setting
up a business and doing something for the first
time is completely turned on its head. It's a
very desperate situation when the business isn't
working. And that was a huge learning curve for
me. Yeah, a very chasing experience. But I do
believe a lot more from that than I did from
from any of the successful businesses I was involved
in. Okay, so how do you put that in perspective
into your own, I guess, life? Because you were
a very successful entrepreneur in the UK, you
moved to the US, things didn't go according to
plan. And now you're kind of stuck, you're stuck
because you've had a great experience, I had
a really bad experience. And what do you do now?
Do you say to yourself, I'm actually going to,
you know, Call it quits, and that's it. Or do
I try something new? So what made you try something
new? Because we know we just said you tried something
new. So what was the kid's decision and influence
to actually go and try something new? Yeah, there's
a number of things there. And it's like, I was
convinced I didn't want to go out on a failure.
I didn't want to be known as a failure. And when
you're in that place, you get very introspective,
right? You kind of, your mind plays tricks on
you. You don't really think rationally. You don't
think, you know, I've been successful, I can
do it again. All you think of is the failure.
And then you think it was a success, a success
despite me. Or, you know, were there other reasons
why Newcomen Garden weren't looking to do with
me and I was just a passenger, if you like. That's
not true. I don't believe that. But at the time
it's very difficult not to believe that, because
you're kind of looking and staring at a failure
in the face. And it's also very unusual to have
this shit sandwich otherwise. It's very unusual
to have this... success, failure, success. Normally
you have a failure, failure, failure, and then
you figure it out and you have a success. And
that's usually the curve. So there's a kind of
a, I suppose, redemption story here in one way.
I had no idea what it was, but I was so convinced
that I absolutely had to do it again. I had to
prove it to everybody, but mostly to myself,
that I could go out on a success. Now, how do
you measure success? I mean, that's the next
thing. Yeah, I guess the issue is, to the other
world, it's all about commercial success, really.
But there's a lot. successes in the other businesses
as well. Doing things for the first time, proving
people wrong and demonstrating that all the experts
were giving us advice and we were still like
a red rag to a bull that we're going to do anyway
and demonstrate that they actually were wrong.
And the conventional wisdom is very powerful,
that's why it's convention, but I believe it's
much more to do with convention actually and
not a lot to do with wisdom. But that is a problem,
you know, and I think if you look back and look
at things that have never been done before, you
think why would ever... never done before, because
they're so much better. But if you listen to
the conventional wisdom, it's like the old story
about automobiles versus horses. Horses were
a great solution at the time, and nobody really,
a lot of people thought, well, they work. You
have a horse, and they eat grass, and they pull
a cart, and what's the problem? What's wrong
with that? Until, okay, cars. And then there
was, you know, electronic cars, and then there
was self -driving cars, and everybody goes, well,
why would you even need that? Well, if people
wanted, if people really, you know, buy it, then
there's a need. So the whole idea of conventional
wisdom was, OK, great while it lasts, but we
want to have the courage of our convictions.
We had that conviction that we could do something
new. So take that to the States. It didn't work.
OK, well, there's your conviction out the window,
right? But it's kind of like, OK, well, what
else can I do? And I had no idea what I could
do other than I needed to come out. on a success.
I needed to prove to myself that I wasn't a failure
and it's kind of difficult when you're in that
introspective place and you're looking at yourself
very exposed in terms of you know why did it
go wrong and everything comes back to you at
least you think it does. A lot of it should do
because I was the one who went to the stage to
say believe me trust me I know what I'm doing
I've done it before I can do it again and it
fails. Now you can pick it apart and say well
the way it wasn't me but you just you just lose
time you just got to move on. So in essence for
me, it was a question of having the courage of
my convictions that I could do that. I had done
it before with a product and I need to do it
again with myself. And that's a different matter,
of course, but it's like a lot of similarities
there. So I needed to kick on. Now, my wife is
German. So we moved back from the States to Germany.
I'm speaking to you now from Munich. I live in
Munich and I moved from the States to from California
to Munich. my kind of thought process, well,
what do I do now? But my third business was set
up in the UK, because that's for a whole bunch
of reasons. That's where the contacts were, that's
where the opportunity was. Food and drink is
much more entrepreneurial in the UK than it is
in Germany. That's a different story, but it's
so true. And that's where Little Dish came from.
That's where this whole idea of fresh, healthy,
convenient meals for children came from. And
we're in my business partner. I've set up businesses
each time in a business partner. We recognise
there's an opportunity in the market. It was
probably about a time when people may remember
when Jamie Oliver was making this kind of one
man crusade to improve quality of meals. You
know, people sitting in pubs having a drink that
didn't have kids at all that would be talking
about all this. You know, school dinners and
turkey twizzlers and all that sort of thing.
So it was a very topical issue and it was probably,
if any time, a good time to raise money for this
particular idea. So we got together and I suppose
to a certain extent with New Covent Garden did
it all over again. It was a fresh product, a
branded product and I knew a little bit about
that. I knew a little bit about Waitrose and
Tescos and Sainsbury's and retailers and how
to actually sell this in a completely different
marketplace. It was designed for children, not
for adults. We were told all sorts of things
that why do you need this? Why is it necessary?
It's not really in a category or a niche at all.
And we proved them wrong because the minute we
actually launched the product, consumers, who
are mothers, primarily loved it. And one point
I'll make here was the consumer insight we had
was very strong for you from garden working.
And the consumer insight for Little Dish was
based on, yeah, we're selling them a meal. OK,
it's a meal, right? It's a meal with lots of
nourishing ingredients in there. And we take
the care and attention to do it as good as you
would do. So in terms of provenance of ingredients,
there's lots of care and attention to where the
meat comes from, where all the ingredients come
from. But we were never really selling a product.
We were selling reassurance. We were selling
reassurance to moms in particular and parents
in general that we were going to take all the
steps necessary to make this safe, make this
healthy, to make this nursing for your child.
So as good as, actually better, but we never
said that, as good as if you had the time and
inclination as making yourself. And it was, we
were selling reassurance that you don't have
to worry. We've got to take care of all the stuff
that's really important, and you can get on with
your daily life. And that was the thing that
really mattered, really. I think it's something
that resonated with parents. And also, it tasted
really good. So there's nothing worse than you
have kids and try to feed them something and
they don't eat it. So it all ends up on the floor
rather than in the kid's mouth. If you have a
product that the kid consumes, you'll buy it
again and again and again. And obviously, we
focus on making sure that the product tastes
good too. So a lot more besides, but that was
the consumer insight, I think, from an innovation
point of view, which led me to believe, OK, this
is the third idea. This is the third business.
Although I lived in Germany, let's set up the
business in the UK and let's drive it. that was
2007 or so and like I say we exited in 2017.
So I'm curious about one thing I'm sure you had
a lot of bad days right and how do you navigate
those bad days because like opening up all these
businesses you probably have a lot of struggles
so how do you manage that do you go back to your
wife and it's just the whole family thing that
gives you support do you go to the gym or workout
do you call some friends how do you manage that?
All of the above actually in terms of things
that you really do yeah I try to go to the gym
and it's very difficult if you're living in one
country and running a business in another, it's
just like crazy actually. And after five or six
years, I had to kind of pull back on that because
for your own sanity, it's nothing else. And of
course you share it and you talk to people, but
I think ultimately, and this is an issue that's
talked about a lot, and I'm not sure if people
really understand what it means. I got my own
version of it. You've got to be resilient. You've
got to just kind of say, people are saying no.
Instead of a business, you have to expect people
to say no. Because, especially if it's a new
business, a new idea, and it's breaking the conventional
wisdom, right? It's something new. You're not
listening to conventional wisdom. You're actually,
you're calling it out and saying, it's much more
conventional and a lot less wisdom. And if you're
saying that, you're setting yourself up for a
lot of attack, to be going, you know, who are
part of the conventional wisdom in particular,
or who can point to it working and say, why,
you know, nothing worse than saying, if something
ain't broke, don't fix it. I mean, that's the
worst thing you could possibly. think of, because
it's always a way to improve things. So in terms
of personal resilience, it's kind of like, you've
got to say, when you get these setbacks, when
you get these challenges, you get this adversity,
you know, don't take it personally. It's not
like somebody is out to get you. They may be,
but they're coming from a place of ignorance.
They're coming from places. You know something
they don't know. You realize something they don't
realize. Somebody called, I think it's Lou Holtz,
the American guy. I'm not big on quotes, but
he said, Show me somebody who's achieved anything
in life and I'll show you somebody who's had
to deal with adversity. And that's the point.
I like that really, I like extending it a bit,
which is kind of like, if you're not pushing
the boundaries, if you're not feeling adversity,
you're not actually doing anything worthwhile,
which is a little bit controversial, a little
bit challenging. It's kind of like, you know,
well, I do lots of things worthwhile. Well, actually,
how worthwhile is it, right? Because whoever
did anything exciting or innovative, or achieved
anything from a position of playing it safe.
And that's what you're doing, you're playing
it safe constantly. And entrepreneur needs to
be happy with, happy is the wrong word. And entrepreneur
needs to be comfortable with risk and needs to
be comfortable with uncertainty. I don't think
you can possibly get into setting up your own
business without understanding that that is the
case. And I'm not saying that there's... no risk
so therefore you go and do something. There's
always a risk if you're doing something for the
first time. There's always a risk if you're changing
the conventional wisdom because the conventional
wisdom is a non -risky version. It's the version
over time that has been proved to work. Now you're
saying, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to
do this instead. I'm going to be a good guy.
It won't work. It won't work. And there are reasons
why. And there are reasons why. But you still
have got to say, well, I'll make it work anyway.
And that's the issue about risk. So I think you
have to be able to recognize the risk and mitigate
the risk. and then you have to be able to deal
with uncertainty and uncertainty is all around
us. I mean you know talk about these days we
thought with Brexit and we thought with with
Covid and we thought with war and we thought
with cross -living crisis and we thought with
that's that's all you know we can't get any worse
or it can't get any more uncertain and now we
got we got tariffs and we got Trump but we got
we got uncertainty with the war is still there
and also things are happening which people are
talking about and making you know maybe maybe
making more out of it than it is but it's a very
uncertain world. And all I ever would ever say
is it's always been a really uncertain world.
You know, my father -in -law, obviously German,
he grew up here as a child after the war. And
it was a crazy time. It was like, you know, the
whole place was in ruins. And they had to kind
of just figure it out and grow the business,
grow the country back again. But it was at a
very challenging time, but a very challenging
time in one way, but a huge opportunity in another.
So I think uncertainty brings opportunity. And
I think the more uncertainty, the better for
a startup. The status quo favors the establishment.
I think that's always the way. And the establishment
likes to have a certain future and can make plans
strategically. Whereas a small guy is much more
agile and can move around and change things and
take advantage of situations which just a large
organization can't. And I think basically, if
you take it all together, that's what an entrepreneur
is. So it stands to reason that you're going
to get more than your fair share of adversity.
It just stands to reason. I always say that adversity
is your friend, because it demonstrates that
this is the case. You're in a very uncertain
environment, but you can take advantage of that.
You can see the opportunity. You can chase that
opportunity. Think of all those businesses that
came out of the 2008 recession. But Airbnb, WhatsApp,
Uber, a lot of those problems came out of them
at that point when everybody was thinking, oh,
yeah, I'll let the dust settle. I'll sit down
and put my tin hat on and I'll wait for things
to improve. Well, you do that, but you lose the
opportunity that exists because of the chaos
and the uncertainty that is there, economic chaos
in that case. So I would come back to your question.
I'm a great believer that resilience comes out
of really understanding that Risk is your friend
if you can recognize it and mitigate it. Don't
ignore it. And uncertainty is your friend because
the more uncertainty the more opportunity it
presents. And the third thing is don't take setbacks
personally because setbacks demonstrate that
you're on to a good thing. There's more roadworks
in the way. You take the path of least resistance
and it means you're doing things like everybody
else has done in the past or you've got a regular
job. Take the entrepreneurial route and you're
going to get a lot of resistance. And that's
just the way it is. You have to expect that to
be the case. So if you find that you're sitting
there in the middle of a problem, what do I do
next? How do I go forward? Then I think being
an entrepreneur, you seek out opportunities and
you understand that you need to be resilient,
not because you need to be Superman or Superwoman.
No, you just need to be honest with yourself.
That's how it's going to be, because that's the
path you chose. And that's all I've ever known.
I came out of university and did this thing about
Andrew with Newcomen Garden Soup, then I did
the States, then I did the Little Dish thing,
and now I do more entrepreneurial things. I wouldn't
know how to do anything else anyway, so it's
not as if I had a huge choice. I did have a choice
though to sit and wallow in my misfortune or
carry out a very protracted post -mortem of what
the problem was and wonder if and should have,
could have, would have, sure you could do that,
and you do do that. but only for a few weeks
and then I think you got to put it behind you
and you got to learn from it and the last point
I make on this is I think the real learning from
it is that it's a failure and a failure hurts
like hell and you can't make a career out of
failure but I think there's a huge opportunity
from a failure meaning that if you if you want
to learn from failure you got to absolutely got
to recognize that it does hurt like hell so failure
is not a great place to be or it's a wonderful
place to have been because it does hurt like
hell and if you're allowed to feel that pain
then you're going to think there's one thing
I'm going to make sure is that I never feel this
pain again and you kick on from there and that's
a great lesson. That's why failure is a great
lesson I think as much more than success is.
So it kind of was all those thoughts kind of
working around in my head coming out of the States
experience I moved to Germany had a clean break
I've had to get my head clear of all of that
and then decide what I was going to do next.
And I get all those elements are part of what
made me decide what I was going to do next. And
I'm curious to one thing because now you're an
investor as well. So when you're looking at early
stage startups, what's the one thing you kind
of pinpoint or you're always trying to find that
in an entrepreneur and you know, they're going
to be successful because they have A, B and C.
What are those things? Did you say agency? Yeah,
yeah. You mentioned being resilient and able
to manage with all the curveballs that life throws
at you, but how are you able to find that in
an entrepreneur? Absolutely, I think that's a
really good question. People ask me this about
having gone to the dark side, having been an
entrepreneur. By the way, in each of the three
businesses, I raised money from institutional
investors, so we had VCs or private equity in
each case. I've always sat at the table with
those guys. Now I'm sitting at the other side
of the table. as though as that guy with the
entrepreneur and it's really interesting environment
especially how coming from the entrepreneurial
side but to answer your question it's kind of
like there's 20 things probably that an investor
would look at more I mean you know as complicated
as a business can be and I think you really want
to look at it in a simplified version don't think
it's too complicated otherwise you look at 100
things there's probably 20 things you want to
look at in any business from an investment perspective
and They might be wrong or they might be right
through your due diligence you think that's a
bit weird or that's a problem or Maybe we can
help them put that right. I think within those
20 Let's say there's probably three there are
three things that if they're wrong you walk away
Now the other thing is the other 17 has called
them if they're wrong You might think I'll go
with them anyway, or you might find a way to
put them, right? Now there's never 17 things
that are wrong because that's too many, but but
there's three things if they're wrong I don't
think there's any way back and it's very difficult
to put them right. And they are product, scalability,
and people. Product meaning you have something
that consumers will buy, you know what I mean?
So you're meeting a consumer need, a very specific
consumer need that you've defined, that your
brand talks to, and all this stuff. So I say
product, there's a lot in that, but there really
is a product that makes a difference to a consumer
group, and they'll buy it. Number two, the scalability
bit is they'll buy it, and there's lots of them.
So there's lots of these. It's not a niche market.
There's an interesting thing we had with Little
Dish. We were wondering, is it a niche market?
Is it too small? People aren't having that many
kids. But it worked out really well. Much smaller
market than Fresh Soup, everybody almost. But
by the way, if you try to sell to everybody,
you end up selling to nobody. So you've got to
be really careful who you're selling to and define
that. So parts and scalability have to be, you
know, they really have to be there. It's very
difficult to invest in a business if they're
not. And the third thing is team, people, entrepreneur,
resilience. Call it what it is, really well.
And even these days, having gotten into this
investment situation in a more formal way post
coming out of Little Dish in 2017. So I've been
doing it now for six, seven years. I'd probably
reverse those around and say it's person, team,
entrepreneur first. and then product and then
scalability or get me on a bad day and I think
it's team team team right because it's so important.
I think that is the thing to answer your question
that you invest in and I remember sitting in
conversations with Apex, Apex where the investment
house that got behind us in New Covent Garden
way back in the beginning. I remember sitting
in meetings with Ronald Cohen who subsequently
became Sir Ronald Cohen and he was a great guy
actually I remember him I remember saying to
him so why Why are you investing us in them?
So what about this proposition makes you feel
is going to be a success? And I thought he would
say something like the first two, like product,
because we're all focused on the product. Product's
cool, product's cool, really interesting idea,
different, you either like it or love it, and
you either love it or hate it. I mean, if you
hate it, you point out why it won't work, and
if you love it, you say why it won't work. I
thought it'd be that. He said, well, you know,
there is that, of course, but really it's about
people. What is it about you and Andrew and the
team you're bringing together? And I thought
he was kind of basically saying what I wanted
to hear. But the more I understood this over
time, the more I see this, especially from the
investment side, he's right. It's kind of like,
which do you want to have? If you had to choose
between a really good entrepreneur and an average
idea, and an average entrepreneur and a really
good idea, which would you choose? Now the answer
is I'd like to have both, of course. But if you
had to choose, I would always go for the really
good entrepreneur. and the average idea, because
a good idea will only ever stay a good idea on
paper. You have to have a really good entrepreneur
to implement it. And back to what I was saying
earlier, you get knockbacks and setbacks and
challenges and you get so many obstacles in your
way that you begin to think, are you being singled
out here? Now you're not, but you're swimming
against the tide, right? You're doing things
differently. So you're back to that point before
you're going to get a lot of obstacles in your
way, right? So you need to have a really strong
entrepreneur who is resilient, who has perseverance,
who doesn't mind getting knocked down and stand
up each time, who has a thick skin, doesn't think
to be personally. And that's what Ronald meant,
actually, way back then. And that's what I think
I mean now as well, to get to a point where it's
all about the entrepreneur. So, I answered your
question. If there is only one thing and you
had to choose one thing in terms of an investment
opportunity, and you can't ignore the other 20
or 19 things, of course not. But if you had to
say this is key to me and it's not how to walk
away, then it's the team, it's the entrepreneur.
It's the level of resilience that the person
in charge, or the team in charge, or if you're
a co -founder, the two of you in charge, demonstrate.
I think then, how many times will you get up
after you've been knocked down? Those are the
things that an investor is trying to make a judgment
on ahead of time, before you're actually put
to the test. It helps if you've demonstrated
in that environment already, of course. But I
think that's it. It's all to do with the person,
the entrepreneur. What's the best piece of advice
you ever got? I'll tell you the best piece of
advice I never got, first. Because that's more
interesting, I think. And that is, I probably
never spent enough time reaching out and asking
for advice. I never spent enough time reaching
out and asking for help. Because I kind of thought,
you know, I was new to all this. I started off
with Newcomen Garden Soup Company and it was
a success. Don't get me wrong, we had lots of
setbacks and challenges, but we had a tiger by
the tail in terms of demand. So that was great.
It's much better dealing with that than dealing
with how am I going to sell my next product.
But I felt that I had to have all the answers
because I was an entrepreneur and everybody was
looking at me. And there was a little bit of
imposter syndrome there. I remember sitting in
meetings. OK, who's responsible for this? And
then thinking with dread, oh my god, I am. I'm
mentally responsible for something to do with
finance. And I had no clue about finance. No
knowledge, no experience, no qualification, no
anything. That's a terrifying place to be. But
you kind of have to kind of just muddle on, haven't
you? And everybody's looking at you as the founder
of the business to make a decision, and you have
to make a decision. And that's great. That is
great. It's great, especially if you make the
right decision, or at least don't kill the business
by making your own decision. But the problem
is then you begin to feel you're invincible,
right? Especially if you're a young guy and you
don't have any other experience. You've come
out of university and you're doing this and you're
like, oh, well, this is how it works. I just
make decisions and things happen. And luckily
they did. And if they didn't, then I wouldn't
be here again telling you about it. But then
you really do believe that all the answers come
from you. And I think all the answers can never
come from you. You've got to find them. Or there
are lots of easier ways to get the answers. Going
through the same mistakes over and over again
that somebody else has. And you can learn from
them. So I think I really do believe that if
people are more willing to reach out and ask
for help, and if I had been more willing to reach
out for help now, I would have had to ask for
help, but I also would have had to listen to
the answer. I'm not guarantee that would have
been the case either. But I think, you know,
in the early days or in any day, really, you
can ask for help. It's amazing how helpful people
can be and want to actually help. I think if
you if you can find ways to to leverage other
people's experience and mistakes. And so at least
you don't have to make the same mistakes. You
make other ones, of course. It's your business,
though. You have to make the judgment call. You
can't say, oh, somebody gave me this advice and
therefore I take that advice. I mean, it might
be the wrong advice. And it's not their fault.
It's your fault for taking the wrong advice.
There has to be responsibility in listening,
asking and listening for sure, but then do I
take this advice? This is right for me. It's
right for my business. It's right for the stage
of growth that I'm in in my business. If you
take the advice and it works, great. If you take
the advice and it doesn't work, I mean, that
is your responsibility. That's your fault. But
you didn't ask that question, did you? You asked
a different question, which was the best piece
of advice I got. To answer the question in that
regard, I didn't allow myself to listen to much
advice, which I think my point is that I think
that was a mistake. I did observe how other people
did things. I watched other people and I learned
a lot from how other people... you're probably
going to think, I'm going to say, did it well.
But I'm going to say, I learned about some other
people not doing it well. And I thought, oh,
well, that's a mistake. And I'm not going to
do that. I'm not going to mention any names,
by the way. But there were a number of people
in the early years where I thought, hey, I'm
not experienced. I don't really know for sure.
And this guy is experienced. And he should know
for sure. I wouldn't do it that way. I mean,
I just don't think that's going to work. And
then it didn't work. And I'm going, ah, OK. But
I learned a really good lesson there that, back
to my point about advice, that experienced people
can still make huge mistakes. And it's no guarantee
that you're not going to make a mistake. I mean,
I made the mistakes in the States, obviously.
I made mistakes all over the shop and all the
businesses that I was involved in. And I guess
I'll probably still make mistakes. But I hope
I've got the humility to actually learn from
that. And I remember thinking at this particular
occasion, way, way back in probably the early
90s now, when I was observing this thing going
on. And I thought this guy should know better.
He has experience. And it just made me think,
people with experience don't necessarily know
any more than you do, right? So I think it's
a question of judgment. And that's what entrepreneurialism
is all about. I studied science, which is all
about first principles and certainty, and making
sure you build on a theory and build on little
incremental steps so you can get to a point where
you go, I am pretty sure now, 99 % of the time,
if I do this, I have this answer. That's science.
and technology whereas entrepreneurship is the
opposite you don't have time for you know develop
a three -year project to figure out what might
be right might be wrong. It's all about intuition,
seat of the pants and judgment and I think if
you add that to the what I said earlier about
risk and uncertainty then if you make those judgments
if you realize that you're responsible you're
not taking advice from somebody who you know
your business better than anybody else so you
have to take the advice and then decide if it's
the right thing for your business or not. And
I think that is something that I realized way
back in the beginning by watching people mostly
make mistakes. And why? Why have you done all
this, John? That's a really big question. Help
me out, Ricardo. Why have I done this? There's
always crazy motivations, right? If you think
about, like, a rock band, they probably say,
oh, we wanted to get all the girls. If you think
about, you know, just a pure simplistic businessman,
they'll say, oh, just wanted the money. But why?
I'm always curious. Like, what prompted you to
launch this, to continue in this lifestyle? What
was the why? That is still a big question, but
that's been very helpful qualifying that. OK,
so I am. First of all, I don't know anything
else. I really don't know anything else. I mean,
it's not like I could go and get a job now. I
don't think I'd be unemployed. I don't know who
would employ me. I don't know who would want
to have me working for them. It's like I really
don't know. It's just a word I've never been
in. Straight from the get -go, straight from
university, I've done this thing, which people
are called entrepreneurship. And it's not for
the faint -hearted for sure, but that sounds
like there's only a select few that should do
it. No, I think everybody can do it as long as
they put their mind to it. Well, why have I done
it? I think it's the search for, either I'm a
masochist and that's possibly the case because
I've done it three times now, or maybe it's a
bit of that, or it's a question of the search
for learning. It's kind of like, I do believe,
and I've only been able to think about this since
the craziness of the three businesses have settled
down. I think about why I did this. I do like
learning. I do like... Imagine I like being proved
wrong, but I sometimes like being surprised.
For example, I remember somebody came to me with
a business plan, and people come to me with business
plans all the time, and I don't really have time
always to look at them in detail. But this particular
person, she came to me at a conference, and I
said, should we look at my business plan as well?
OK, I will. Over lunch, let's go and have lunch.
We'll have a sandwich and a coffee. And she demonstrated
a business plan. It was really interesting. I
thought, OK, that's not bad. And there were certain
things in there that were just wrong, but not
because... She was wrong about it. She didn't
have the experience. And that's what she was
asking me for. So I said, you should really consider
this, because it always, in theory, works like
that, but never really in practice works like
that. And maybe you should change this around.
Yeah, it was literally a half an hour conversation.
And then she called me up two weeks later and
I said, oh my god, here she is again. I thought
that was done. No, she wanted to talk about it
again. I said, okay. And she had listened to
all the things I'd said and incorporated them
and changed them in her business plan and changed
them in her business model. So this assumption
she had in her business model was now different
because of the conversation we had. I think,
okay, she was listening. Well, you know, that's
great. But in addition to that, there were other
things I'd said that she hadn't incorporated,
but she didn't say, you know, she didn't ignore
them. She said, now you said about this and about
this and I've been thinking about this. And I
can see how you'd say that. But I actually think
the opposite. And she gave a really good justification
for why she thought the opposite. And that's
an example of what I think of taking responsibility
for your own business, having control of your
own business destiny. You ask somebody advice,
you take the bits you want, then you think about
the other bits which you don't think work, and
then you don't take them. And you push back.
So she pushed back to me and went, I like this
bit and this bit. I put it in. I don't like this
bit. Let me tell you why. And I'm there going,
Well, that's fantastic. You know your business
a lot better than I do. I give you advice, and
I'm having coffee in the meantime. I'm thinking
of something else. But it's up to you to do something
with that advice. And you absolutely have taken
this and not taken that, and now coming up with
a justified argument to say why I don't think
this is right for me. Not just I don't like it,
or I'm going to ignore it, or I don't want to
talk about that bit because I think you're wrong.
I don't want to tell you you're wrong because
I've asked you what you think is right. And I
thought, wow. Well, you know what? This is very
interesting. First of all, the business is interesting.
Secondly, the product is interesting. But thirdly,
more importantly, you're interesting. And I might
even put money behind you in terms of let's look
more closely at this business. And I did actually
invest in your business. And I went from there.
So I really like that. I feel through the energy.
It's kind of like, you know, it's kind of taking
the best bits that I can give with the best bits
somebody else can give on something else. I'm
putting it together to get the best possible
environment or outcome or set of assumptions
or business. And I think that's. a real definition
of synergy and that's really exciting and I like
being part of those sort of situations because
I could give the benefit of my knowledge, wisdom,
experience, colour what you like but it's not
always exactly right for every situation. What
you need then is a smart entrepreneur who actually
manifests that and demonstrates that and I learn
something. It's those sorts of situations I like
being in because I do learn something and I'm
challenged to think about Yeah, but why would
you do it that way? And the worst answer I've
ever heard is, well, that's how it works around
here. That's how the food industry works. Well,
that's the most stupid reason to ever do it in
the first place. Maybe we should think of a different
way of doing it. And I think when you're putting
it in an entrepreneur environment, you come up
against people and environments and situations
and examples like that. And that's not more often
than you do if you're not. So that's why I'm
still involved in it. I'm more involved on the
investment side now. But I still have conversations
like this. And that excites me. And that keeps
me going. I'm not going to set up a fourth business,
by the way, Ricardo, unless you're asking me.
But I'm still involved in the industry, still
involved in the ecosystem, and I love the entrepreneurial
way of life, and I wouldn't want it anyway, anyway
else. That makes sense. John, as we're reaching
the end of the podcast, if people want to reach
out to you, what's the best way of doing so?
Wow. I mean, it's really easy to reach out to
me. Just go on LinkedIn. I'm all over LinkedIn.
I suppose people say to me, I am anyway. And
so, yeah, just DM me on LinkedIn. That's the
best way to do it. I have a website. I do a bit
of I give some keynote speeches and stuff like
that. My LinkedIn is more to do with the business
interests I've got. You'll see that on my website,
which is really simple. It's www .johnstapleton
.eu. That talks about me as a keynote speaker
and the kind of talking I do about the wider
picture and the wider environment. So you can
get me at either of those. But I think the easiest
way is just look me up on LinkedIn and DM me.
I promise to get back to you. It might not be
within 24 hours, but I will get back to you.
Sounds good. John, thank you so much for your
time. I really enjoy your conversation. Oh, I
enjoyed the chat, too. Thanks for the questions.
Really, really useful. Take care. Thank you.
The podcast is also sponsored by Notion .so.
Notion is offering six months for free for new
users. Make sure you check out our website, the
startupevents .co .uk, to read in the software.
This podcast is also sponsored by startupnetworks
.co .uk. Startup networks, it's an online forum
where you can find all the resources you need
to run your startup. From grants to investors
to tips and tricks on how to be successful in
your startup. This podcast is also sponsored
by ODEV Tech. ODEV Tech is your premier software
development partner. Make sure you check them
out at odev .tech.