WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.859 Welcome to the Innovation Conversation, a podcast 00:00:02.859 --> 00:00:05.419 about innovators, both in business and real life. 00:00:05.879 --> 00:00:08.380 Hosted by myself, Ricardo Rescual and Harry McCona. 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:11.699 This podcast is also sponsored by ODEV Tech. 00:00:12.439 --> 00:00:14.640 ODEV Tech is your premier software development 00:00:14.640 --> 00:00:18.019 partner. Make sure you check them out at odev 00:00:18.019 --> 00:00:22.399 .tech. The podcast is also sponsored by Notion 00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:25.359 .so. Notion is offering six months for free for 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:27.839 new users. Make sure you check out our website, 00:00:28.039 --> 00:00:30.519 thestoreofevents .co .uk to read in the software. 00:00:30.980 --> 00:00:33.479 Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Innovation 00:00:33.479 --> 00:00:36.479 Conversation. Today we are joined by John Stampleton. 00:00:36.640 --> 00:00:38.259 John, welcome to the podcast. Carter, thanks 00:00:38.259 --> 00:00:40.280 for having me on. I'm delighted to be here. It's 00:00:40.280 --> 00:00:42.020 a pleasure having you here. Now, John, you're 00:00:42.020 --> 00:00:44.060 a man who doesn't need any introduction, but 00:00:44.060 --> 00:00:46.200 still I'll kind of ask you to do one just for 00:00:46.200 --> 00:00:48.399 our listeners back home. Yeah, no problem. I've 00:00:48.399 --> 00:00:50.359 got fingers in many pies and I've done lots of 00:00:50.359 --> 00:00:53.399 things in the last... 40 years so I'm happy to 00:00:53.399 --> 00:00:55.259 kind of explain that a little bit but I guess 00:00:55.259 --> 00:00:57.880 I'm the food guy yeah I'm the guy who's probably 00:00:57.880 --> 00:01:00.600 set up a number of businesses three in fact in 00:01:00.600 --> 00:01:02.659 the food space and the food and drink space and 00:01:02.659 --> 00:01:05.180 if I take you away back to 1987 believe it or 00:01:05.180 --> 00:01:07.140 not that's when I came out of university I set 00:01:07.140 --> 00:01:09.319 up my first business and that was New Covent 00:01:09.319 --> 00:01:11.939 Garden Soup Company which was those in the UK 00:01:11.939 --> 00:01:14.579 well recognized the brand that's an example of 00:01:14.579 --> 00:01:17.260 it basically fresh soup in a cart you know I 00:01:17.260 --> 00:01:19.200 have one it's an empty one right obviously because 00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:21.939 it's fresh But I have one sitting next to me 00:01:21.939 --> 00:01:24.340 here usually, so I can use it as a prop. But 00:01:24.340 --> 00:01:26.260 that was, yeah, in 1987 we set up, we were the 00:01:26.260 --> 00:01:28.060 first to make fresh soup, yeah, believe it or 00:01:28.060 --> 00:01:30.079 not. I mean, fresh soup is so ubiquitous now, 00:01:30.180 --> 00:01:32.560 it's a thing, it's a category people expected 00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:34.959 almost. But back then all liquid soup came in 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:37.359 a can, so we were the first to put it in a carton, 00:01:37.400 --> 00:01:38.739 we were the first to make fresh soup, first to 00:01:38.739 --> 00:01:41.340 put it in the chiller, and everything went with 00:01:41.340 --> 00:01:42.760 that. We were totally, we were crazy, we were 00:01:42.760 --> 00:01:45.680 wrong, we were stupid, and we did our best to 00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:49.260 prove everybody else wrong. And that... ran for 00:01:49.260 --> 00:01:51.239 about 10 years. So we set it up, as I say, from 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:53.060 zero from scratch. We were the first to do it. 00:01:53.260 --> 00:01:55.000 And we sold that business to a company called 00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:58.780 Daniels in the food trade in 1998. And I spent 00:01:58.780 --> 00:02:01.540 a lot of my time in 1998, 1987, going to the 00:02:01.540 --> 00:02:03.400 States, setting up another business, which was 00:02:03.400 --> 00:02:05.439 really very similar, but a separate business. 00:02:05.819 --> 00:02:07.900 It was fresh soup in a carton for the US market. 00:02:08.379 --> 00:02:10.360 And that was called Glencoe Foods. Now, unfortunately, 00:02:10.419 --> 00:02:12.659 that didn't work. It didn't work, even though 00:02:12.659 --> 00:02:14.539 if anybody in the world knew anything about fresh 00:02:14.539 --> 00:02:16.379 soup, it was probably me. And we can come back 00:02:16.379 --> 00:02:17.719 to that and talk about that in a minute. But 00:02:17.719 --> 00:02:20.180 my third business then was a company called Little 00:02:20.180 --> 00:02:21.919 Dish. And I have one of those, believe it or 00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:24.340 not, as well. It's an old packaging, right? But 00:02:24.340 --> 00:02:27.039 it's basically healthy, convenient, tasty meals 00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:29.699 and then snacks for kids, for young kids, not 00:02:29.699 --> 00:02:32.500 for adults, not for babies, but for kids. And 00:02:32.500 --> 00:02:33.939 again, it was a niche market. And again, people 00:02:33.939 --> 00:02:35.680 told us we were crazy, that there would be no 00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:37.620 need for this. And we were the first to do it. 00:02:37.620 --> 00:02:40.500 And we built that category. We set it up in 20. 00:02:40.750 --> 00:02:44.750 excuse me, 2007. And then we saw that in 2017. 00:02:44.849 --> 00:02:46.990 So that was another 10 -year kind of adventure, 00:02:47.090 --> 00:02:49.530 did I? And that was the first phase of my career, 00:02:49.650 --> 00:02:52.229 I feel like. I call that my early career. I also 00:02:52.229 --> 00:02:54.530 call it my shit sandwich, regardless, because 00:02:54.530 --> 00:02:56.930 it was a wonderful experience. It always is when 00:02:56.930 --> 00:02:59.389 you set up a company to start with and a great 00:02:59.389 --> 00:03:01.629 adventure and a tiger by the tail. Learned a 00:03:01.629 --> 00:03:03.310 lot in the first business, Newcombe and Garden 00:03:03.310 --> 00:03:05.620 Soup Company. And the third business... similar 00:03:05.620 --> 00:03:07.620 in terms of commercial exit. It was great. It 00:03:07.620 --> 00:03:10.719 was really good. I guess that's one way to term 00:03:10.719 --> 00:03:12.919 success, not the only way. But everything that 00:03:12.919 --> 00:03:14.199 happened in the middle of this five years in 00:03:14.199 --> 00:03:16.259 the States, I wanted to experience, but it didn't 00:03:16.259 --> 00:03:18.840 work. And that's the shit bit. And I'm a great 00:03:18.840 --> 00:03:22.680 believer that success is a lousy teacher. And 00:03:22.680 --> 00:03:24.580 I learned an awful lot more from the shit bit, 00:03:24.840 --> 00:03:26.060 frankly. I learned an awful lot more from the 00:03:26.060 --> 00:03:28.099 failure. I learned a lot more from those five 00:03:28.099 --> 00:03:30.580 years in the middle, in the States. And I did 00:03:30.580 --> 00:03:32.780 probably the two 10 year periods either side. 00:03:33.240 --> 00:03:37.099 And that takes us to 2017. And since I've been 00:03:37.099 --> 00:03:38.400 doing lots of other things, we can talk about 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:40.139 that in a moment. But basically, I help small 00:03:40.139 --> 00:03:42.219 businesses to grow. I've got fingers in different 00:03:42.219 --> 00:03:44.159 pies. I'm more on the investment side, I suppose, 00:03:44.979 --> 00:03:48.860 now. As you move through, that's probably meant 00:03:48.860 --> 00:03:51.400 that I'm poacher -turned -gamekeeper a bit. I've 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:52.819 always been on the side of the entrepreneur. 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:54.659 I guess once an entrepreneur, always an entrepreneur, 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:57.139 frankly. But I know how that works. I know that 00:03:57.139 --> 00:04:00.240 how it is. I can sympathize very much with the 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:02.819 The difficulties entrepreneur has in terms of 00:04:02.819 --> 00:04:04.219 dealing with all the challenges and setbacks 00:04:04.219 --> 00:04:08.840 and adversity, frankly. But I tend to sit more 00:04:08.840 --> 00:04:10.520 on the other side of the table now. I invest 00:04:10.520 --> 00:04:12.599 in businesses, I advise businesses, I mentor 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:15.560 entrepreneurs, and I do a number of other things. 00:04:15.699 --> 00:04:17.240 But that's probably enough as an introduction 00:04:17.240 --> 00:04:19.300 for you, Ricardo. It's a massive introduction. 00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:22.920 I have like tons of questions now. OK, so let's 00:04:22.920 --> 00:04:24.920 start in the beginning, I guess. How do you come 00:04:24.920 --> 00:04:27.040 up with ideas? Are you like a super fanatic? 00:04:27.160 --> 00:04:29.629 How did they come to be? No, I'm not a soup fanatic 00:04:29.629 --> 00:04:32.310 at all. Well, I became one, I guess. But no, 00:04:32.430 --> 00:04:35.189 I was here out of university, right? So I didn't 00:04:35.189 --> 00:04:36.990 know anything about anything, frankly. And nobody 00:04:36.990 --> 00:04:39.589 does. And I think that's OK. Ignorance is bliss. 00:04:40.310 --> 00:04:42.610 I met this guy called Andrew Palmer. Andrew was 00:04:42.610 --> 00:04:44.870 this archetypal entrepreneur. I learned a lot 00:04:44.870 --> 00:04:47.050 from him. He was great. And he had the idea. 00:04:47.129 --> 00:04:49.250 He had the idea of fresh soup. There's a whole 00:04:49.250 --> 00:04:53.790 story about him kind of revelation. He was enjoying 00:04:53.790 --> 00:04:57.379 a typical English bank holiday weekend in August, 00:04:57.639 --> 00:04:59.680 teeming rain, freezing cold, and he was sailing 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:02.139 in a boat off the coast of Southampton by the 00:05:02.139 --> 00:05:04.879 Isle of Wight. And he came in and his mom had 00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:06.699 come to stay for the weekend. He used to live 00:05:06.699 --> 00:05:09.699 there. And basically, he went shivering up to 00:05:09.699 --> 00:05:12.759 the bath to warm up. And his mom kind of went 00:05:12.759 --> 00:05:14.560 downstairs to figure out what maybe they might 00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:16.759 have for lunch. And I couldn't find really anything 00:05:16.759 --> 00:05:20.000 but a few moldy old vegetables in a basket. And 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:21.800 she put it together, made some fresh soup. And 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:23.720 he was sitting there warming up in the bath and 00:05:23.720 --> 00:05:26.170 got this wonderful aroma. a fresh shiv coming 00:05:26.170 --> 00:05:29.589 upstairs. And he thought, what's that? Has my 00:05:29.589 --> 00:05:31.949 mom got a takeout? There's no takeout anywhere 00:05:31.949 --> 00:05:34.629 near here. So he came downstairs. And she said, 00:05:34.709 --> 00:05:36.089 here we go. Here's some soup. And he said, oh, 00:05:36.129 --> 00:05:38.250 you brought that with you. I don't know. I tried 00:05:38.250 --> 00:05:39.769 to find whatever you had here. And I put it all 00:05:39.769 --> 00:05:41.430 together and made some soup out of it. So I could 00:05:41.430 --> 00:05:43.209 do it. And he goes, that's a fantastic idea. 00:05:43.310 --> 00:05:45.389 Wow. And I gave him the kind of thought. I wonder. 00:05:45.790 --> 00:05:47.269 if we can bring that to the masses, I wonder 00:05:47.269 --> 00:05:49.370 if we can actually bring that to the market. 00:05:49.790 --> 00:05:51.889 And he was a stockbroker, he had no knowledge 00:05:51.889 --> 00:05:54.769 about the food industry and he met me in Reading 00:05:54.769 --> 00:05:56.329 University and there's a whole story with that 00:05:56.329 --> 00:05:58.050 as well. I went to Reading University to study 00:05:58.050 --> 00:06:02.089 food science and basically we just got together 00:06:02.089 --> 00:06:05.610 and the way we got together was Reading was a 00:06:05.610 --> 00:06:07.230 centre of excellence for food which is why I 00:06:07.230 --> 00:06:10.569 was there and Andrew came to the university to 00:06:10.569 --> 00:06:12.870 ask the guys there about how you make fresh soup. 00:06:13.340 --> 00:06:15.399 And of course, he was asking the wrong people. 00:06:15.459 --> 00:06:18.240 He was asking academics an entrepreneurial question. 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:20.180 And they looked at him like he had two heads 00:06:20.180 --> 00:06:22.579 and said, it's a really stupid idea. Why would 00:06:22.579 --> 00:06:25.459 you want to do that? Basically, right back there 00:06:25.459 --> 00:06:28.339 on the other side of the store, there's a location 00:06:28.339 --> 00:06:29.939 that already exists. It's called a soup aisle. 00:06:30.019 --> 00:06:31.639 Why would you want to mess with it? And he was 00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:33.259 thinking, no, no, I want to make fresh soup. 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:35.420 And he wanted to know how to make fresh soup. 00:06:36.220 --> 00:06:38.240 And he wanted to know, from a technological point 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:40.360 of view, how he might do that. And then he kind 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:41.439 of didn't really know what to do with them, and 00:06:41.439 --> 00:06:43.160 they said, well, this Irish guy finished going 00:06:43.160 --> 00:06:45.600 off his master's degree here on university, so 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:47.399 you might want to go and talk to him. I honestly 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:48.839 think they were just trying to get rid of him. 00:06:49.100 --> 00:06:51.800 And so we met up. Yeah, we met up, and we met 00:06:51.800 --> 00:06:54.060 down at the pub for lunch, and we were kicked 00:06:54.060 --> 00:06:55.839 out at closing time, because we spent the entire 00:06:55.839 --> 00:06:58.439 afternoon, the entire evening arguing, talking, 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:00.420 discussing, like, what is this fresh soup thing, 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:02.980 and how might it work? And, you know, question 00:07:02.980 --> 00:07:05.500 after question with some sort of half -assed 00:07:05.500 --> 00:07:07.100 answer. And we didn't really have any answers. 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:09.100 So at the end of the conversation, we had more 00:07:09.100 --> 00:07:10.740 question marks than answers. So we thought, you 00:07:10.740 --> 00:07:13.399 know what, we get on really well, and we compliment 00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:15.879 each other very well. And why don't we just go 00:07:15.879 --> 00:07:18.540 and do it? So that required us to have a new 00:07:18.540 --> 00:07:21.439 company. A lot of time, good ideas come out of 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:23.839 the pub. But mostly, they stay in the pub, right? 00:07:24.060 --> 00:07:25.920 And people kind of think, oh, wonderful, I could 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:27.839 do this, I could do that. I never really do anything 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:29.300 about it. But this is what actually managed to 00:07:29.300 --> 00:07:31.639 get out of the pub. And we set the business up. 00:07:33.430 --> 00:07:35.829 1987, like a long time ago. Ignorance is bliss. 00:07:36.029 --> 00:07:37.769 We had no idea what we were doing. We had no 00:07:37.769 --> 00:07:39.870 idea what we were luring ourselves in for. It 00:07:39.870 --> 00:07:42.970 was a huge adventure. We're a bunch of happy 00:07:42.970 --> 00:07:44.629 amateurs, frankly, trying to figure this out 00:07:44.629 --> 00:07:46.910 on the go. But that was the 10 years that kind 00:07:46.910 --> 00:07:48.389 of took us through, and it was very successful, 00:07:48.389 --> 00:07:50.370 of course, despite us trying to kill the business 00:07:50.370 --> 00:07:52.610 every so often because we made some silly mistakes. 00:07:53.169 --> 00:07:55.370 But thankfully, no terminal mistakes. You know, 00:07:55.430 --> 00:07:57.449 we were making up what went along. We were reacting 00:07:57.449 --> 00:08:00.189 to huge demand. We had got something right. Obviously, 00:08:00.389 --> 00:08:02.370 putting fresh soup in a carton. It appealed to 00:08:02.370 --> 00:08:04.310 the consumer despite everybody telling us it 00:08:04.310 --> 00:08:07.490 was a crazy idea. So, yeah, that's how soup came 00:08:07.490 --> 00:08:08.850 about. I was in the wrong place at the wrong 00:08:08.850 --> 00:08:11.730 time, Ricardo. To be honest, I'm a big fan of 00:08:11.730 --> 00:08:13.529 the company still. I still go and buy those soup 00:08:13.529 --> 00:08:16.149 all the time because it's just super tasty. But, 00:08:17.350 --> 00:08:20.399 I mean, how should I put this? At the time there 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:22.699 was no other alternative right apart from teen 00:08:22.699 --> 00:08:25.240 soups. That was it. So how did the market? I 00:08:25.240 --> 00:08:28.439 mean, what was their the response to it was the 00:08:28.439 --> 00:08:30.079 market saying, you know, we kind of like this 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:31.779 even the supermarkets I'd even managed to get 00:08:31.779 --> 00:08:34.139 in supermarkets in the first place while managing 00:08:34.139 --> 00:08:35.679 that they probably said there's on demand for 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:37.940 this There's about three or four questions in 00:08:37.940 --> 00:08:41.320 there. So let me Let me try to split that up. 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:43.580 I mean, you're absolutely right. I mean, first 00:08:43.580 --> 00:08:45.100 of all, we had a tiger by the tail I think I 00:08:45.100 --> 00:08:47.759 said already it was a huge huge success. We didn't 00:08:47.759 --> 00:08:50.070 know that at the time You have to get on the 00:08:50.070 --> 00:08:51.730 shelf before you can get off the shelf. And that 00:08:51.730 --> 00:08:53.710 was a huge challenge for us. And we didn't know 00:08:53.710 --> 00:08:55.509 anything about anything. We were just two guys 00:08:55.509 --> 00:08:58.070 who had an idea, and a crazy idea of that. In 00:08:58.070 --> 00:08:59.809 fact, everybody, like I say, told us we had a 00:08:59.809 --> 00:09:02.330 stupid idea. So there were probably 20 things 00:09:02.330 --> 00:09:05.450 who were told were wrong about our proposition. 00:09:06.350 --> 00:09:08.409 And I'll just give you three of them very quickly. 00:09:08.570 --> 00:09:10.250 The guys at Reading University told us we were 00:09:10.250 --> 00:09:12.730 crazy, and we were mad, and we'd kill somebody. 00:09:13.129 --> 00:09:15.029 They said there's a reason liquid supers in a 00:09:15.029 --> 00:09:17.830 can. It's to make it safe. It's a process. highly 00:09:17.830 --> 00:09:19.870 processed. You've got like 80 in one shelf life. 00:09:21.029 --> 00:09:23.070 But the problem with that is it kills the nutritional 00:09:23.070 --> 00:09:25.309 composition and it kills the flavor. You've got 00:09:25.309 --> 00:09:27.830 to put other stuff into it. Think of tomato soup. 00:09:27.929 --> 00:09:29.570 It doesn't taste of tomato soup at all coming 00:09:29.570 --> 00:09:31.360 out of a can. because you put a lot of sugar 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:33.899 into it and it caramelizes. Kids love it, therefore, 00:09:33.980 --> 00:09:36.340 it's sweet. But it doesn't taste of real fresh 00:09:36.340 --> 00:09:37.919 tomatoes or basil or whatever else you want to 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:41.899 put into it. We wanted to deliver a product that 00:09:41.899 --> 00:09:43.539 tastes funny enough of the ingredients you put 00:09:43.539 --> 00:09:46.480 into it, not the process you use to make it safe 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:49.580 or give it a long shelf life. But the technologists 00:09:49.580 --> 00:09:52.019 and the scientists, of which I was one, I suppose, 00:09:52.019 --> 00:09:54.259 because I'd studied that there, they said, you're 00:09:54.259 --> 00:09:55.940 crazy. You would kill somebody. It needs to be 00:09:55.940 --> 00:09:58.179 made safe. That's why it's put in a can. And, 00:09:58.179 --> 00:09:59.539 you know, we clearly didn't want to kill anybody, 00:09:59.639 --> 00:10:01.500 but we thought there's got to be a way to make 00:10:01.500 --> 00:10:05.120 it safe without killing all the ingredients and 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:07.720 killing all the flavour and killing all the nutritional 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:09.940 composition. So we developed a process. I guess 00:10:09.940 --> 00:10:12.000 that's what I did initially. Developed a process 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:15.820 to make it safe, but fresh. And that was a pasteurized 00:10:15.820 --> 00:10:17.899 process. So we didn't overheat it like you do 00:10:17.899 --> 00:10:20.679 in a canning process. We gently heated it. So 00:10:20.679 --> 00:10:22.600 instead of 18 months, we had 18 days. And that 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:24.559 was perfectly adequate, more than adequate for 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:26.159 the chiller. And then they said the chiller. 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:28.379 The retailers would never let you into the chiller 00:10:28.379 --> 00:10:31.259 because the chiller is their space. It's coveted. 00:10:31.299 --> 00:10:33.360 It's much more own label though in those days. 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:35.659 You get brands in the chiller these days, but 00:10:35.659 --> 00:10:38.200 you really get own label like Waitrose and Tesco's 00:10:38.200 --> 00:10:40.840 products. And they covet that space because it's 00:10:40.840 --> 00:10:43.039 their space. And that's true. They did. But they 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:44.559 didn't let us in. Obviously, they gave us an 00:10:44.559 --> 00:10:46.299 opportunity. Waitrose were the first to give 00:10:46.299 --> 00:10:49.600 us an opportunity. And they then said, this was 00:10:49.600 --> 00:10:51.519 a really interesting thing. They said, consumers 00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:54.080 will hate the carton or won't understand the 00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:57.820 carton. They'll think, carton? Soup doesn't really 00:10:57.820 --> 00:11:00.960 go together. Milk goes in a carton or juice might 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:02.539 go in a carton. This is a fresh carton by the 00:11:02.539 --> 00:11:04.679 way, not a sterilised carton. So they said the 00:11:04.679 --> 00:11:06.419 consumer would be all confused by that and in 00:11:06.419 --> 00:11:08.820 fact the consumer loved the carton. Once they 00:11:08.820 --> 00:11:10.419 understood we had fresh soup written on there, 00:11:10.500 --> 00:11:12.279 once they understood it was fresh soup in a chiller, 00:11:12.659 --> 00:11:15.740 that's weird for sure, but then taste it, bring 00:11:15.740 --> 00:11:18.240 it home and lock your socks off. It would be 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:19.899 nothing else. It would be as good as you make 00:11:19.899 --> 00:11:21.740 yourself, as good as you get in a restaurant. 00:11:22.019 --> 00:11:24.149 That was the whole idea. And then I had the convenience 00:11:24.149 --> 00:11:25.950 that you don't need to make a juice out. That 00:11:25.950 --> 00:11:27.509 was the whole point about it here. So that was 00:11:27.509 --> 00:11:30.049 the innovation, I suppose. The conventional wisdom 00:11:30.049 --> 00:11:32.629 was going down the soup aisle, the existing soup 00:11:32.629 --> 00:11:34.929 aisle, and buying in a can. But we had the courage 00:11:34.929 --> 00:11:37.230 of our conviction, if you like, in that we wanted 00:11:37.230 --> 00:11:39.629 to do something different. We had consumer insight 00:11:39.629 --> 00:11:41.850 to tell us we were right, despite everybody else 00:11:41.850 --> 00:11:44.730 telling us we were wrong. I'm quite bold. Did 00:11:44.730 --> 00:11:46.879 you raise any investment for the company? Oh 00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:48.759 yeah, we sure did. You can't do this on your 00:11:48.759 --> 00:11:51.440 own. You can't really grow a branded product 00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:52.980 on its own anyway. You always have to invest 00:11:52.980 --> 00:11:54.759 ahead of the curve. You always have to invest 00:11:54.759 --> 00:11:57.000 more money in the business than the business 00:11:57.000 --> 00:11:59.500 is throwing off because the business doesn't 00:11:59.500 --> 00:12:02.159 throw off enough to invest at a steady enough 00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:04.480 rate so you can grow quickly. Our plan, by the 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:06.600 way, was always to exit. So we were always going 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:08.299 to exit. We thought five years, it took us 10 00:12:08.299 --> 00:12:10.960 years. You can't do it in five years. You can't 00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:13.269 really do it in less than eight years. Otherwise, 00:12:13.389 --> 00:12:15.289 you're leaving value on the table. But we did 00:12:15.289 --> 00:12:16.990 want to exit, which is really critical in terms 00:12:16.990 --> 00:12:19.090 of getting investors on board. Because you have 00:12:19.090 --> 00:12:21.750 to have an exit opportunity for investors to 00:12:21.750 --> 00:12:23.889 come in and come out. They have to have a return 00:12:23.889 --> 00:12:25.929 on investment argument. So if you want to set 00:12:25.929 --> 00:12:28.490 up a family -run business and a legacy business 00:12:28.490 --> 00:12:30.269 and something you want to keep forever, it's 00:12:30.269 --> 00:12:32.389 very difficult to get investment. Because how 00:12:32.389 --> 00:12:34.929 do you get investors out once they're in? But 00:12:34.929 --> 00:12:37.470 we had that plan. And people ask me sometimes, 00:12:37.789 --> 00:12:40.990 how do you sell your baby type of thing because 00:12:40.990 --> 00:12:42.830 you've set it up. I think, well, that was always 00:12:42.830 --> 00:12:45.750 the plan. Andrew as well, we always wanted to 00:12:45.750 --> 00:12:47.830 set up a business and sell it. We were a bit 00:12:47.830 --> 00:12:51.330 naive about how that might take, but we did set 00:12:51.330 --> 00:12:53.769 it up for 10 years. So we spoke to a number of 00:12:53.769 --> 00:12:56.889 different sources of finance. There was no crowdfunding 00:12:56.889 --> 00:12:59.110 back in those days. So it was really kind of 00:12:59.110 --> 00:13:01.669 limited, friends and family to start with. And 00:13:01.669 --> 00:13:04.110 then there was no real angel investors either, 00:13:04.250 --> 00:13:06.669 although we had a few. We went straight into 00:13:06.669 --> 00:13:11.799 BC and we got Apex. who are a multinational huge 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:14.120 international conglomerate in terms of investment 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:16.960 platform now and even then they were quite large 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:19.480 but what they said to us yeah we like you guys 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:21.580 and I've really understood why they believed 00:13:21.580 --> 00:13:23.740 us because we were lots of question marks on 00:13:23.740 --> 00:13:26.259 our own mind but they said we get behind you 00:13:26.259 --> 00:13:28.899 just go get a listing first. Getting a listing 00:13:28.899 --> 00:13:32.649 means get it listed in a wholesaler. sorry, in 00:13:32.649 --> 00:13:34.990 a retailer. So we went about thinking who would 00:13:34.990 --> 00:13:36.850 be the best one. And back in those days, and 00:13:36.850 --> 00:13:38.789 even probably now still Waitrose is the one you 00:13:38.789 --> 00:13:40.830 go to, too. They like to give the new guys a 00:13:40.830 --> 00:13:42.190 chance. They like a point of difference from 00:13:42.190 --> 00:13:43.490 the other retailers, not as big as the other 00:13:43.490 --> 00:13:47.350 retailers. So we went to them. And I remember 00:13:47.350 --> 00:13:48.850 the meeting we had with them was really weird. 00:13:48.909 --> 00:13:52.690 We went to kind of pitch our product. We didn't 00:13:52.690 --> 00:13:54.409 know what we were doing. But we were told beforehand 00:13:54.409 --> 00:13:56.889 that retailers keep their cards close to their 00:13:56.889 --> 00:13:58.450 chest. They don't really let you know, even if 00:13:58.450 --> 00:14:00.740 they want you. My waiters were completely different. 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:03.360 They said, yeah, sure. We'd love to have you 00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:05.559 on board. And they were thinking, OK, like when? 00:14:05.620 --> 00:14:07.500 This was like May, I think, or April or May. 00:14:07.580 --> 00:14:09.720 And they said, September. And there's one thing 00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:11.940 I knew about soup was it's going to be very seasonal. 00:14:12.379 --> 00:14:14.080 So I thought we had to be in for the next season. 00:14:14.259 --> 00:14:16.419 So September sounded great. So I said, yes, we 00:14:16.419 --> 00:14:18.340 can do that. But we didn't have a factory. And 00:14:18.340 --> 00:14:20.139 you can't really do it in that short time. You 00:14:20.139 --> 00:14:23.679 can't build a factory in short notice. And Apex 00:14:23.679 --> 00:14:25.580 had told us, if we get a listing, we'd get the 00:14:25.580 --> 00:14:27.320 money to build a factory. But of course, you 00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:30.240 need a factory to get the listing, to build a 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:33.200 launch. So we had this kind of catch -22. But 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:35.879 Waitrose gave us the opportunity. So we said, 00:14:36.100 --> 00:14:38.980 yes. And then we figured out, we went down to 00:14:38.980 --> 00:14:42.360 the pub for a celebration -y drink. And a lot 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:44.000 of New Covent Garden was celebrated around the 00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:46.019 pub, by the way, as you can tell. But we were 00:14:46.019 --> 00:14:47.340 sitting there thinking, this is great. But the 00:14:47.340 --> 00:14:49.120 elephant in the room was there thinking, how 00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:50.279 are you going to actually deliver? How are you 00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:53.070 going to do this? So we had a kind of a research 00:14:53.070 --> 00:14:55.129 station in Reading, which is not very far away 00:14:55.129 --> 00:14:57.690 from where Waitrose were based, still are, in 00:14:57.690 --> 00:14:59.750 Bracknell. They could have come to see what we 00:14:59.750 --> 00:15:00.929 were doing and they would have closed us down 00:15:00.929 --> 00:15:04.370 because it was such a small Heath Robinson type 00:15:04.370 --> 00:15:06.570 of outlet. It really was a research station. 00:15:06.669 --> 00:15:08.509 And we just started to sell from there. We started 00:15:08.509 --> 00:15:10.450 to produce from there while we built our factory 00:15:10.450 --> 00:15:13.070 in London. We went back to APAC, said we have 00:15:13.070 --> 00:15:14.850 the listing. They said, really? Yeah, we can 00:15:14.850 --> 00:15:17.649 list in September. But we need to build a factory 00:15:17.649 --> 00:15:20.250 to supply. And so they gave us the money to build 00:15:20.250 --> 00:15:23.269 the factory. which was a big step because we 00:15:23.269 --> 00:15:24.669 didn't have any money and we didn't really know 00:15:24.669 --> 00:15:27.149 anything about any of this and they were really 00:15:27.149 --> 00:15:28.950 supporting us based on we knew what we were talking 00:15:28.950 --> 00:15:31.509 about. But they thought we had a good idea like 00:15:31.509 --> 00:15:34.230 we did. So we built the factory in parallel with 00:15:34.230 --> 00:15:37.570 running, supplying Waitrose and really, to be 00:15:37.570 --> 00:15:40.250 honest, the facility we had in Reading was very 00:15:40.250 --> 00:15:42.169 small and we were bursting at the seams and doing 00:15:42.169 --> 00:15:43.470 all sorts of things we really shouldn't be doing. 00:15:43.649 --> 00:15:45.409 Like I say, if Waitrose had come to look at us, 00:15:45.509 --> 00:15:47.330 they probably would have... said you can't supply 00:15:47.330 --> 00:15:48.730 waitress here and they would have been right 00:15:48.730 --> 00:15:50.230 but if you're an entrepreneur you're trying to 00:15:50.230 --> 00:15:52.669 find solutions to all this and we had a way out 00:15:52.669 --> 00:15:55.029 we had we had a way through here so we supplied 00:15:55.029 --> 00:15:56.769 waitress for a couple of months out of the out 00:15:56.769 --> 00:15:58.830 of the existing facility wouldn't even call it 00:15:58.830 --> 00:16:01.009 a factory and we built our bigger factory in 00:16:01.009 --> 00:16:03.129 london and then we can switch over later in the 00:16:03.129 --> 00:16:05.330 following year when that was ready so it was 00:16:05.330 --> 00:16:08.429 a bit of a crazy time but it was it worked for 00:16:08.429 --> 00:16:10.809 us and it got us through and you never have all 00:16:10.809 --> 00:16:12.450 the answers ready you never have all the answers 00:16:12.450 --> 00:16:14.509 in it in the sequence available to us you have 00:16:14.509 --> 00:16:17.600 to try to run through and make the best you probably 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:20.059 can with what you've got. But we had a promise 00:16:20.059 --> 00:16:22.500 of a listing and a promise of money for a factory, 00:16:22.940 --> 00:16:24.840 maybe the wrong way around, but that's what we 00:16:24.840 --> 00:16:26.559 needed. And that's what allowed us to be successful 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:28.419 in the early years. And what was the biggest 00:16:28.419 --> 00:16:31.480 struggle you had growing up the company? Ha! 00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:33.100 You wouldn't believe it. We thought we'd have 00:16:33.100 --> 00:16:35.159 all sorts of problems with the brand and listings 00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:37.379 and retailing and all those other stuff but the 00:16:37.379 --> 00:16:38.840 biggest problem of all, and I'll just get the 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:39.960 carton here again, the biggest problem of all 00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:42.500 was putting soup into the carton. It was as simple 00:16:42.500 --> 00:16:44.980 as that. We didn't anticipate this and it almost 00:16:44.980 --> 00:16:48.220 caught us out. We thought, you know, okay, soup 00:16:48.220 --> 00:16:49.620 has never been put in a carton before but how 00:16:49.620 --> 00:16:51.480 difficult can it be? And the answer is really 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:53.320 difficult and I really wish we'd figured this 00:16:53.320 --> 00:16:54.700 out beforehand because it causes an awful lot 00:16:54.700 --> 00:16:58.360 of grief. But the basic problem is that Soup 00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:00.879 is not just liquid. What was in these cartons 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:04.220 before was liquid like milk and cold milk. We 00:17:04.220 --> 00:17:06.119 filled hot for technical reasons to give it a 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:08.400 shelf life, give it that pasteurization. And 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:11.039 when you've got hot liquid, it's very, very non 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:13.539 -viscous. You know, it's very watery. The warmer 00:17:13.539 --> 00:17:16.019 it is, the less viscous it is. And you've got 00:17:16.019 --> 00:17:18.420 bits in it as well. It's not just liquid. And 00:17:18.420 --> 00:17:20.299 you've got to get the same number of bits in 00:17:20.299 --> 00:17:22.509 the carton and you've got to fill it. as quickly 00:17:22.509 --> 00:17:25.990 as you can. So let me use this analogy. It's 00:17:25.990 --> 00:17:29.769 kind of like you've got three egg cups, right? 00:17:30.150 --> 00:17:32.410 Egg cups. And you've got a big bucket of hot 00:17:32.410 --> 00:17:36.089 boiling water. And your job is to pour into the 00:17:36.089 --> 00:17:38.690 egg cups, right up to the top, to that level 00:17:38.690 --> 00:17:41.230 of the top, into each egg cup. Fill up the egg 00:17:41.230 --> 00:17:44.250 cup with soup. But get the same number of... 00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:46.779 particulates we call it, pieces of carrot or 00:17:46.779 --> 00:17:48.819 pieces of onion or pieces of potato into each 00:17:48.819 --> 00:17:50.880 egg cup. I mean it's a crazy idea, who would 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:52.400 have thought it up except that we thought it 00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:55.019 was going to be easy. So that whole technological 00:17:55.019 --> 00:17:57.779 challenge of getting particular distribution 00:17:57.779 --> 00:18:00.000 you know obviously you buy a carton when it has 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:02.359 the right number of bits in it you know soup 00:18:02.359 --> 00:18:04.380 without bits is okay there's lots of creamy soups 00:18:04.380 --> 00:18:07.670 etc but a lot of soups with bits in it too and 00:18:07.670 --> 00:18:10.430 the consumer loved minestrone and loved chicken 00:18:10.430 --> 00:18:13.170 soup and the bigger the bits the better in some 00:18:13.170 --> 00:18:15.170 in some regard so they loved this whole idea 00:18:15.170 --> 00:18:17.710 but it was a real challenge for us to actually 00:18:17.710 --> 00:18:20.109 physically put you know we had soup on the wall 00:18:20.109 --> 00:18:21.589 soup on the ceiling and soup on the floor and 00:18:21.589 --> 00:18:23.430 no bloody soup in the carton and lots and lots 00:18:23.430 --> 00:18:25.269 of days and we were tearing our hair out trying 00:18:25.269 --> 00:18:26.970 to find you know we raised a little bit of money 00:18:26.970 --> 00:18:29.970 to get us through to do this test to get to prove 00:18:29.970 --> 00:18:32.009 that we could do it and you know demonstrate 00:18:32.009 --> 00:18:34.009 it to the retailer and then get more money from 00:18:34.009 --> 00:18:37.390 Apex and We ran out of money, you know, and it 00:18:37.390 --> 00:18:39.349 probably took us, it took us, it did actually 00:18:39.349 --> 00:18:42.769 take us 18 months to perfect this process. And 00:18:42.769 --> 00:18:44.990 all the while, the money was running out, so 00:18:44.990 --> 00:18:47.269 you could see this closing window opportunity, 00:18:47.369 --> 00:18:50.430 and we just needed to get through, and we weren't 00:18:50.430 --> 00:18:53.049 quite sure we were ever gonna make it. So, everything 00:18:53.049 --> 00:18:55.589 else was put on hold until we solved our problem, 00:18:55.890 --> 00:18:59.609 to get a proper amount of soup into the carton, 00:18:59.890 --> 00:19:02.769 cleanly sealed, shelf life, safe. We didn't want 00:19:02.769 --> 00:19:06.150 to kill anybody again. and prove time over time 00:19:06.150 --> 00:19:08.329 again that was going to work. It took us a lot 00:19:08.329 --> 00:19:10.430 longer to do that than we anticipated and we 00:19:10.430 --> 00:19:12.329 lost the whole season, you know, because it seems 00:19:12.329 --> 00:19:14.509 not right. We're in time to get that right. Luckily, 00:19:14.509 --> 00:19:16.230 we got that right before we went to Atros, but 00:19:16.230 --> 00:19:18.170 it could have easily been the end of the company 00:19:18.170 --> 00:19:21.250 before it even began. I can imagine the stress 00:19:21.250 --> 00:19:22.849 you must have been under because that's quite 00:19:22.849 --> 00:19:24.609 stressful, isn't it? You don't know. Which way 00:19:24.609 --> 00:19:26.289 is going to go? I mean, I see if you're telling 00:19:26.289 --> 00:19:28.009 a story and it's a lovely story because everybody 00:19:28.009 --> 00:19:29.670 goes, oh yeah, because everybody knows Newcomen 00:19:29.670 --> 00:19:31.430 Garden Soup Company and of course it worked because 00:19:31.430 --> 00:19:32.829 he wouldn't be on the shelf if it didn't work. 00:19:33.009 --> 00:19:34.750 But back then you don't know it's going to work. 00:19:34.890 --> 00:19:36.569 You don't know. All these problems that people 00:19:36.569 --> 00:19:38.650 have and they tell you about them later, they 00:19:38.650 --> 00:19:41.109 go, oh, that's nice. That's a struggle. But you 00:19:41.109 --> 00:19:43.049 know it worked. Whereas when you're in the middle 00:19:43.049 --> 00:19:45.089 of it, right sitting in the middle of soup all 00:19:45.089 --> 00:19:47.329 over you, you don't know. And you're kind of 00:19:47.329 --> 00:19:49.259 thinking. A lot of time you're thinking it won't 00:19:49.259 --> 00:19:51.200 work, or if there's a solution here it'll be 00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:52.880 too late, and I'll run out of money, run out 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:56.279 of time, or the retailers will lose patience, 00:19:56.519 --> 00:19:59.059 or our investors will lose patience, and you 00:19:59.059 --> 00:20:00.680 see you've got all these people around you relying 00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:02.839 on you to do what you thought was pretty straightforward, 00:20:03.019 --> 00:20:04.720 and you've committed to doing it, you've said 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:06.220 it is straightforward, I just need to get this 00:20:06.220 --> 00:20:07.960 bit done, and you know, you're always selling, 00:20:08.119 --> 00:20:09.240 aren't you? You're always selling your business, 00:20:09.380 --> 00:20:12.359 your idea, your concept, yourself, you're always 00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:14.630 selling. And the problem is you have to sell 00:20:14.630 --> 00:20:16.750 this concept to yourself, too, at times. You've 00:20:16.750 --> 00:20:18.509 got to sell to yourself and convince yourself. 00:20:19.109 --> 00:20:21.069 I think a lot of the time, the little guy who 00:20:21.069 --> 00:20:22.789 sits up here banging in your head saying, it 00:20:22.789 --> 00:20:24.890 won't work, it won't work, it won't work, he's 00:20:24.890 --> 00:20:26.670 always there. You've just got to quieten him 00:20:26.670 --> 00:20:32.349 down. But when you're in the pit of the valley 00:20:32.349 --> 00:20:35.210 of desperation, if you like, and you can't really 00:20:35.210 --> 00:20:37.430 see a way out and you don't know for sure, this 00:20:37.430 --> 00:20:39.569 guy gets louder and louder and louder. and you 00:20:39.569 --> 00:20:41.730 sit there going, this was a really stupid idea, 00:20:41.809 --> 00:20:44.769 yeah? And that takes a lot of, I don't know, 00:20:44.950 --> 00:20:46.769 perseverance and resilience and what you might 00:20:46.769 --> 00:20:49.250 want to call it. I don't know. But luckily, you 00:20:49.250 --> 00:20:50.730 know, I wouldn't be sitting here otherwise, would 00:20:50.730 --> 00:20:53.130 I? But luckily we came to the other end. And 00:20:53.130 --> 00:20:55.730 well then, so and then you trying to move the 00:20:55.730 --> 00:20:57.910 operations to the US, how did that came about 00:20:57.910 --> 00:21:00.170 and how did that go? Well, it was a separate 00:21:00.170 --> 00:21:02.109 business completely, Ricardo. Actually, we sold 00:21:02.109 --> 00:21:07.460 the business in Oh 1997, well January 98 we sold 00:21:07.460 --> 00:21:10.920 the business. I was spending 97, it was a really 00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:12.819 weird year for me. It was kind of a schizophrenic 00:21:12.819 --> 00:21:14.420 year. I was spending all that time selling the 00:21:14.420 --> 00:21:17.119 business in the UK and at the same time setting 00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:19.220 up a completely separate business in the US. 00:21:19.660 --> 00:21:21.779 And we left for a particular reason. We needed 00:21:21.779 --> 00:21:23.200 to get out, we needed to have our shareholders 00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:25.819 to get out. It wasn't just launching a new... 00:21:26.539 --> 00:21:29.440 subsidiary or a new range of products in the 00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:31.500 US, a complete separate business. So that was 00:21:31.500 --> 00:21:33.819 different. So I physically moved out to California 00:21:33.819 --> 00:21:38.140 in what must have been February 1998 to continue 00:21:38.140 --> 00:21:40.900 with the setting up of that business. Like I 00:21:40.900 --> 00:21:43.000 say, if anybody knew anything about Fresh Soup, 00:21:43.160 --> 00:21:45.839 it would have had to be me because... New Covent 00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:48.039 Garden Soup Company. We were the only fresh soup 00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:50.160 company then. There were others too, but we had 00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:51.940 pioneered the whole thing. We were the only ones 00:21:51.940 --> 00:21:53.700 in cartons, yeah, for a whole bunch of reasons. 00:21:54.359 --> 00:21:56.599 And we wanted to be in cartons again in the US. 00:21:56.700 --> 00:21:58.579 I don't have a US carton here, but basically 00:21:58.579 --> 00:22:00.880 it was very similar. So it was a different business, 00:22:01.140 --> 00:22:03.859 different shareholding structure. A lot was different, 00:22:03.940 --> 00:22:06.420 but a lot was the same. And I got out there to 00:22:06.420 --> 00:22:09.519 raise money, to raise awareness, set up a business. 00:22:10.490 --> 00:22:12.789 build a factory, which in hindsight was probably 00:22:12.789 --> 00:22:14.490 a mistake, but build a factory because we had 00:22:14.490 --> 00:22:16.269 this technology, which we had perfected over 00:22:16.269 --> 00:22:19.190 time. And of course, the U .S. in a very litigious 00:22:19.190 --> 00:22:22.289 country, I was very apprehensive about outsourcing 00:22:22.289 --> 00:22:24.410 that and getting somebody else to do it and letting 00:22:24.410 --> 00:22:27.890 our IP maybe be available to others. In hindsight, 00:22:28.329 --> 00:22:30.130 hindsight's wonderful, but in hindsight, it probably 00:22:30.130 --> 00:22:32.609 was a big mistake because it took a lot of money, 00:22:32.750 --> 00:22:33.910 and that was one of the reasons why we ran out 00:22:33.910 --> 00:22:35.690 of money, took a lot of money to build a factory. 00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:38.180 We didn't get the rate of sale quickly enough 00:22:38.180 --> 00:22:41.119 to offset the overheads that we had, like we 00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:43.259 did in the UK. The UK was much more successful 00:22:43.259 --> 00:22:45.339 in that regard in the early years. So we could 00:22:45.339 --> 00:22:47.140 cover our overheads more quickly and then it 00:22:47.140 --> 00:22:50.279 could come down and grow. Whereas in the US it 00:22:50.279 --> 00:22:52.400 was different. A lot of things went wrong in 00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:55.240 the US which were outside of our control and 00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:56.819 some things went wrong which were inside of our 00:22:56.819 --> 00:22:58.519 control. It's always a way. Never one thing, 00:22:58.660 --> 00:23:00.220 it's a combination of factors. And the stuff 00:23:00.220 --> 00:23:01.940 that was outside of our control was like we were 00:23:01.940 --> 00:23:05.619 in... San Francisco. This is outside San Francisco 00:23:05.619 --> 00:23:08.519 in a factory there and we had some US based shareholders 00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:11.720 and of course those days 1998 -2003 I was there, 00:23:12.099 --> 00:23:14.680 was all about dot com. So nobody was anyway interested 00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:17.799 in soup or food, it was just non -sexy. Dot com 00:23:17.799 --> 00:23:20.160 was very sexy. So we had no real interest from 00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:22.339 our investors we had out there to follow on, 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:24.930 to invest more money. They might have listened 00:23:24.930 --> 00:23:26.890 to our argument, they might have, but they were 00:23:26.890 --> 00:23:29.529 really distracted with the dot com phenomenon 00:23:29.529 --> 00:23:31.190 out there. So that was kind of outside of our 00:23:31.190 --> 00:23:33.690 control. And also a business tried to buy us 00:23:33.690 --> 00:23:36.029 as well. We were very kind of apprehensive about 00:23:36.029 --> 00:23:38.029 that. A company called Best Foods who own the 00:23:38.029 --> 00:23:40.490 Knorr or Knorr brand. They wanted to put Knorr 00:23:40.490 --> 00:23:42.869 into Fresh. And I was very apprehensive about 00:23:42.869 --> 00:23:43.970 that. I thought they were trying to find out 00:23:43.970 --> 00:23:45.250 what our technology is and do it themselves. 00:23:45.789 --> 00:23:47.390 Anyway, it took us a long time, but we realized 00:23:47.390 --> 00:23:50.220 they're very genuine. Until the point we got 00:23:50.220 --> 00:23:52.539 to sign to them, almost, Unilever came in and 00:23:52.539 --> 00:23:55.279 bought Best Foods and suddenly basically cancelled 00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:57.579 all M &A activity. And we had lost a lot of time 00:23:57.579 --> 00:23:59.740 talking to these guys and being distracted by 00:23:59.740 --> 00:24:02.200 this whole potential sale process. And we lost 00:24:02.200 --> 00:24:05.000 two seasons and it's very seasonal again. So 00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:07.359 lots of things went wrong that we probably could 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:09.759 have done something about. Lots of things were 00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:12.079 outside of our control. In the end of the day 00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:14.500 though, it's like they have a different... what 00:24:14.500 --> 00:24:17.779 I call triangulation between quality convenience 00:24:17.779 --> 00:24:22.900 and price in the US. And they have big refrigerators 00:24:22.900 --> 00:24:26.359 and they buy stock twice a week. And their convenience 00:24:26.359 --> 00:24:29.819 is, they believe that frozen food is very convenient. 00:24:30.599 --> 00:24:33.000 They weren't thinking that this is ultimately 00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:35.339 in the UK then and even still now is extremely 00:24:35.339 --> 00:24:37.079 convenient. Their perception of convenience is 00:24:37.079 --> 00:24:39.299 different. Quality is different. So we didn't 00:24:39.299 --> 00:24:41.119 get that right. Ultimately, we weren't getting 00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:43.740 what we call the rate of sale, the churn, the 00:24:43.740 --> 00:24:46.160 number of units per store per week on an ongoing 00:24:46.160 --> 00:24:48.859 basis wasn't as high as we needed it to be, like 00:24:48.859 --> 00:24:51.299 I said earlier, to offset our overheads. But 00:24:51.299 --> 00:24:53.160 like I said earlier, success is a lazy teacher, 00:24:53.240 --> 00:24:55.440 but when you've got failure, you're very exposed. 00:24:55.579 --> 00:24:58.039 And I learned a lot about soup, about the state, 00:24:58.160 --> 00:24:59.779 about business, of course, but I learned a lot 00:24:59.779 --> 00:25:01.140 about me, because you're sitting in the middle 00:25:01.140 --> 00:25:03.769 of the guy who... brought it all together. And 00:25:03.769 --> 00:25:05.630 it's very exciting bringing it all together, 00:25:06.089 --> 00:25:08.250 selling the idea to shareholders, to retailers, 00:25:08.750 --> 00:25:12.630 to staff members as well. But when all that goes 00:25:12.630 --> 00:25:15.329 bottom up, then it's a very different matter. 00:25:15.569 --> 00:25:17.049 And the enthusiasm you have when you're setting 00:25:17.049 --> 00:25:18.490 up a business and doing something for the first 00:25:18.490 --> 00:25:21.150 time is completely turned on its head. It's a 00:25:21.150 --> 00:25:23.549 very desperate situation when the business isn't 00:25:23.549 --> 00:25:25.349 working. And that was a huge learning curve for 00:25:25.349 --> 00:25:28.359 me. Yeah, a very chasing experience. But I do 00:25:28.359 --> 00:25:30.079 believe a lot more from that than I did from 00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:32.259 from any of the successful businesses I was involved 00:25:32.259 --> 00:25:35.180 in. Okay, so how do you put that in perspective 00:25:35.180 --> 00:25:39.839 into your own, I guess, life? Because you were 00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:41.640 a very successful entrepreneur in the UK, you 00:25:41.640 --> 00:25:43.940 moved to the US, things didn't go according to 00:25:43.940 --> 00:25:45.900 plan. And now you're kind of stuck, you're stuck 00:25:45.900 --> 00:25:47.599 because you've had a great experience, I had 00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:49.799 a really bad experience. And what do you do now? 00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:51.779 Do you say to yourself, I'm actually going to, 00:25:51.779 --> 00:25:55.950 you know, Call it quits, and that's it. Or do 00:25:55.950 --> 00:25:58.990 I try something new? So what made you try something 00:25:58.990 --> 00:26:01.009 new? Because we know we just said you tried something 00:26:01.009 --> 00:26:03.650 new. So what was the kid's decision and influence 00:26:03.650 --> 00:26:05.869 to actually go and try something new? Yeah, there's 00:26:05.869 --> 00:26:08.230 a number of things there. And it's like, I was 00:26:08.230 --> 00:26:09.869 convinced I didn't want to go out on a failure. 00:26:10.009 --> 00:26:11.269 I didn't want to be known as a failure. And when 00:26:11.269 --> 00:26:13.109 you're in that place, you get very introspective, 00:26:13.190 --> 00:26:15.170 right? You kind of, your mind plays tricks on 00:26:15.170 --> 00:26:17.289 you. You don't really think rationally. You don't 00:26:17.289 --> 00:26:19.670 think, you know, I've been successful, I can 00:26:19.670 --> 00:26:21.710 do it again. All you think of is the failure. 00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:24.240 And then you think it was a success, a success 00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:26.900 despite me. Or, you know, were there other reasons 00:26:26.900 --> 00:26:28.680 why Newcomen Garden weren't looking to do with 00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:31.380 me and I was just a passenger, if you like. That's 00:26:31.380 --> 00:26:33.400 not true. I don't believe that. But at the time 00:26:33.400 --> 00:26:35.220 it's very difficult not to believe that, because 00:26:35.220 --> 00:26:37.059 you're kind of looking and staring at a failure 00:26:37.059 --> 00:26:39.859 in the face. And it's also very unusual to have 00:26:39.859 --> 00:26:42.019 this shit sandwich otherwise. It's very unusual 00:26:42.019 --> 00:26:44.309 to have this... success, failure, success. Normally 00:26:44.309 --> 00:26:45.549 you have a failure, failure, failure, and then 00:26:45.549 --> 00:26:47.029 you figure it out and you have a success. And 00:26:47.029 --> 00:26:49.269 that's usually the curve. So there's a kind of 00:26:49.269 --> 00:26:51.890 a, I suppose, redemption story here in one way. 00:26:51.970 --> 00:26:55.670 I had no idea what it was, but I was so convinced 00:26:55.670 --> 00:26:59.329 that I absolutely had to do it again. I had to 00:26:59.329 --> 00:27:01.349 prove it to everybody, but mostly to myself, 00:27:01.890 --> 00:27:04.150 that I could go out on a success. Now, how do 00:27:04.150 --> 00:27:05.750 you measure success? I mean, that's the next 00:27:05.750 --> 00:27:08.230 thing. Yeah, I guess the issue is, to the other 00:27:08.230 --> 00:27:10.670 world, it's all about commercial success, really. 00:27:10.750 --> 00:27:13.359 But there's a lot. successes in the other businesses 00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:15.279 as well. Doing things for the first time, proving 00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:18.720 people wrong and demonstrating that all the experts 00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:20.759 were giving us advice and we were still like 00:27:20.759 --> 00:27:22.980 a red rag to a bull that we're going to do anyway 00:27:22.980 --> 00:27:25.299 and demonstrate that they actually were wrong. 00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:27.900 And the conventional wisdom is very powerful, 00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:30.519 that's why it's convention, but I believe it's 00:27:30.519 --> 00:27:32.839 much more to do with convention actually and 00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:34.880 not a lot to do with wisdom. But that is a problem, 00:27:35.019 --> 00:27:37.359 you know, and I think if you look back and look 00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:39.559 at things that have never been done before, you 00:27:39.559 --> 00:27:42.170 think why would ever... never done before, because 00:27:42.170 --> 00:27:44.250 they're so much better. But if you listen to 00:27:44.250 --> 00:27:45.869 the conventional wisdom, it's like the old story 00:27:45.869 --> 00:27:48.390 about automobiles versus horses. Horses were 00:27:48.390 --> 00:27:50.329 a great solution at the time, and nobody really, 00:27:50.470 --> 00:27:53.269 a lot of people thought, well, they work. You 00:27:53.269 --> 00:27:55.490 have a horse, and they eat grass, and they pull 00:27:55.490 --> 00:27:57.089 a cart, and what's the problem? What's wrong 00:27:57.089 --> 00:27:59.109 with that? Until, okay, cars. And then there 00:27:59.109 --> 00:28:01.690 was, you know, electronic cars, and then there 00:28:01.690 --> 00:28:03.029 was self -driving cars, and everybody goes, well, 00:28:03.029 --> 00:28:05.869 why would you even need that? Well, if people 00:28:05.869 --> 00:28:08.829 wanted, if people really, you know, buy it, then 00:28:08.829 --> 00:28:11.950 there's a need. So the whole idea of conventional 00:28:11.950 --> 00:28:15.329 wisdom was, OK, great while it lasts, but we 00:28:15.329 --> 00:28:16.869 want to have the courage of our convictions. 00:28:17.009 --> 00:28:19.029 We had that conviction that we could do something 00:28:19.029 --> 00:28:21.349 new. So take that to the States. It didn't work. 00:28:21.549 --> 00:28:23.130 OK, well, there's your conviction out the window, 00:28:23.450 --> 00:28:26.490 right? But it's kind of like, OK, well, what 00:28:26.490 --> 00:28:29.069 else can I do? And I had no idea what I could 00:28:29.069 --> 00:28:32.380 do other than I needed to come out. on a success. 00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:35.039 I needed to prove to myself that I wasn't a failure 00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:37.099 and it's kind of difficult when you're in that 00:28:37.099 --> 00:28:39.559 introspective place and you're looking at yourself 00:28:39.559 --> 00:28:42.640 very exposed in terms of you know why did it 00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:44.539 go wrong and everything comes back to you at 00:28:44.539 --> 00:28:46.660 least you think it does. A lot of it should do 00:28:46.660 --> 00:28:48.279 because I was the one who went to the stage to 00:28:48.279 --> 00:28:50.359 say believe me trust me I know what I'm doing 00:28:50.359 --> 00:28:52.960 I've done it before I can do it again and it 00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:55.960 fails. Now you can pick it apart and say well 00:28:55.960 --> 00:28:57.740 the way it wasn't me but you just you just lose 00:28:57.740 --> 00:29:00.450 time you just got to move on. So in essence for 00:29:00.450 --> 00:29:02.210 me, it was a question of having the courage of 00:29:02.210 --> 00:29:04.430 my convictions that I could do that. I had done 00:29:04.430 --> 00:29:07.509 it before with a product and I need to do it 00:29:07.509 --> 00:29:10.730 again with myself. And that's a different matter, 00:29:10.730 --> 00:29:13.250 of course, but it's like a lot of similarities 00:29:13.250 --> 00:29:15.670 there. So I needed to kick on. Now, my wife is 00:29:15.670 --> 00:29:17.769 German. So we moved back from the States to Germany. 00:29:18.069 --> 00:29:20.529 I'm speaking to you now from Munich. I live in 00:29:20.529 --> 00:29:23.950 Munich and I moved from the States to from California 00:29:23.950 --> 00:29:26.480 to Munich. my kind of thought process, well, 00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:28.279 what do I do now? But my third business was set 00:29:28.279 --> 00:29:30.220 up in the UK, because that's for a whole bunch 00:29:30.220 --> 00:29:31.839 of reasons. That's where the contacts were, that's 00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:33.980 where the opportunity was. Food and drink is 00:29:33.980 --> 00:29:36.460 much more entrepreneurial in the UK than it is 00:29:36.460 --> 00:29:38.299 in Germany. That's a different story, but it's 00:29:38.299 --> 00:29:39.960 so true. And that's where Little Dish came from. 00:29:40.279 --> 00:29:43.559 That's where this whole idea of fresh, healthy, 00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:46.759 convenient meals for children came from. And 00:29:46.759 --> 00:29:49.039 we're in my business partner. I've set up businesses 00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:51.559 each time in a business partner. We recognise 00:29:51.559 --> 00:29:53.650 there's an opportunity in the market. It was 00:29:53.650 --> 00:29:55.190 probably about a time when people may remember 00:29:55.190 --> 00:29:57.430 when Jamie Oliver was making this kind of one 00:29:57.430 --> 00:30:01.670 man crusade to improve quality of meals. You 00:30:01.670 --> 00:30:05.809 know, people sitting in pubs having a drink that 00:30:05.809 --> 00:30:07.509 didn't have kids at all that would be talking 00:30:07.509 --> 00:30:11.410 about all this. You know, school dinners and 00:30:11.410 --> 00:30:12.950 turkey twizzlers and all that sort of thing. 00:30:12.990 --> 00:30:16.289 So it was a very topical issue and it was probably, 00:30:16.289 --> 00:30:18.170 if any time, a good time to raise money for this 00:30:18.170 --> 00:30:20.640 particular idea. So we got together and I suppose 00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:22.400 to a certain extent with New Covent Garden did 00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:24.400 it all over again. It was a fresh product, a 00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:26.700 branded product and I knew a little bit about 00:30:26.700 --> 00:30:28.779 that. I knew a little bit about Waitrose and 00:30:28.779 --> 00:30:30.839 Tescos and Sainsbury's and retailers and how 00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:33.220 to actually sell this in a completely different 00:30:33.220 --> 00:30:36.180 marketplace. It was designed for children, not 00:30:36.180 --> 00:30:38.920 for adults. We were told all sorts of things 00:30:38.920 --> 00:30:40.839 that why do you need this? Why is it necessary? 00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:44.779 It's not really in a category or a niche at all. 00:30:45.099 --> 00:30:46.980 And we proved them wrong because the minute we 00:30:46.980 --> 00:30:50.200 actually launched the product, consumers, who 00:30:50.200 --> 00:30:53.440 are mothers, primarily loved it. And one point 00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:55.440 I'll make here was the consumer insight we had 00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:57.200 was very strong for you from garden working. 00:30:57.720 --> 00:30:59.359 And the consumer insight for Little Dish was 00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:02.160 based on, yeah, we're selling them a meal. OK, 00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:04.700 it's a meal, right? It's a meal with lots of 00:31:04.700 --> 00:31:07.720 nourishing ingredients in there. And we take 00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:10.480 the care and attention to do it as good as you 00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:13.740 would do. So in terms of provenance of ingredients, 00:31:14.259 --> 00:31:16.160 there's lots of care and attention to where the 00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:17.839 meat comes from, where all the ingredients come 00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:21.109 from. But we were never really selling a product. 00:31:21.150 --> 00:31:24.410 We were selling reassurance. We were selling 00:31:24.410 --> 00:31:26.750 reassurance to moms in particular and parents 00:31:26.750 --> 00:31:28.410 in general that we were going to take all the 00:31:28.410 --> 00:31:30.410 steps necessary to make this safe, make this 00:31:30.410 --> 00:31:33.089 healthy, to make this nursing for your child. 00:31:33.269 --> 00:31:35.190 So as good as, actually better, but we never 00:31:35.190 --> 00:31:37.349 said that, as good as if you had the time and 00:31:37.349 --> 00:31:39.990 inclination as making yourself. And it was, we 00:31:39.990 --> 00:31:41.509 were selling reassurance that you don't have 00:31:41.509 --> 00:31:44.250 to worry. We've got to take care of all the stuff 00:31:44.250 --> 00:31:45.910 that's really important, and you can get on with 00:31:45.910 --> 00:31:48.049 your daily life. And that was the thing that 00:31:48.049 --> 00:31:49.789 really mattered, really. I think it's something 00:31:49.789 --> 00:31:52.750 that resonated with parents. And also, it tasted 00:31:52.750 --> 00:31:54.589 really good. So there's nothing worse than you 00:31:54.589 --> 00:31:56.130 have kids and try to feed them something and 00:31:56.130 --> 00:31:58.710 they don't eat it. So it all ends up on the floor 00:31:58.710 --> 00:32:00.809 rather than in the kid's mouth. If you have a 00:32:00.809 --> 00:32:02.609 product that the kid consumes, you'll buy it 00:32:02.609 --> 00:32:05.099 again and again and again. And obviously, we 00:32:05.099 --> 00:32:07.240 focus on making sure that the product tastes 00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:09.720 good too. So a lot more besides, but that was 00:32:09.720 --> 00:32:11.519 the consumer insight, I think, from an innovation 00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:14.079 point of view, which led me to believe, OK, this 00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:15.980 is the third idea. This is the third business. 00:32:16.220 --> 00:32:17.680 Although I lived in Germany, let's set up the 00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:19.960 business in the UK and let's drive it. that was 00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:22.880 2007 or so and like I say we exited in 2017. 00:32:23.339 --> 00:32:25.059 So I'm curious about one thing I'm sure you had 00:32:25.059 --> 00:32:27.380 a lot of bad days right and how do you navigate 00:32:27.380 --> 00:32:29.859 those bad days because like opening up all these 00:32:29.859 --> 00:32:31.799 businesses you probably have a lot of struggles 00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:33.759 so how do you manage that do you go back to your 00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:35.559 wife and it's just the whole family thing that 00:32:35.559 --> 00:32:37.660 gives you support do you go to the gym or workout 00:32:37.660 --> 00:32:40.059 do you call some friends how do you manage that? 00:32:40.180 --> 00:32:41.819 All of the above actually in terms of things 00:32:41.819 --> 00:32:43.859 that you really do yeah I try to go to the gym 00:32:43.859 --> 00:32:47.220 and it's very difficult if you're living in one 00:32:47.220 --> 00:32:49.319 country and running a business in another, it's 00:32:49.319 --> 00:32:51.920 just like crazy actually. And after five or six 00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:53.859 years, I had to kind of pull back on that because 00:32:53.859 --> 00:32:58.059 for your own sanity, it's nothing else. And of 00:32:58.059 --> 00:32:59.460 course you share it and you talk to people, but 00:32:59.460 --> 00:33:02.119 I think ultimately, and this is an issue that's 00:33:02.119 --> 00:33:03.720 talked about a lot, and I'm not sure if people 00:33:03.720 --> 00:33:05.880 really understand what it means. I got my own 00:33:05.880 --> 00:33:08.619 version of it. You've got to be resilient. You've 00:33:08.619 --> 00:33:10.859 got to just kind of say, people are saying no. 00:33:11.099 --> 00:33:12.619 Instead of a business, you have to expect people 00:33:12.619 --> 00:33:14.680 to say no. Because, especially if it's a new 00:33:14.680 --> 00:33:17.900 business, a new idea, and it's breaking the conventional 00:33:17.900 --> 00:33:20.279 wisdom, right? It's something new. You're not 00:33:20.279 --> 00:33:22.160 listening to conventional wisdom. You're actually, 00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:24.180 you're calling it out and saying, it's much more 00:33:24.180 --> 00:33:26.579 conventional and a lot less wisdom. And if you're 00:33:26.579 --> 00:33:28.500 saying that, you're setting yourself up for a 00:33:28.500 --> 00:33:31.660 lot of attack, to be going, you know, who are 00:33:31.660 --> 00:33:33.039 part of the conventional wisdom in particular, 00:33:33.380 --> 00:33:35.480 or who can point to it working and say, why, 00:33:35.619 --> 00:33:37.619 you know, nothing worse than saying, if something 00:33:37.619 --> 00:33:39.279 ain't broke, don't fix it. I mean, that's the 00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:41.279 worst thing you could possibly. think of, because 00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:44.259 it's always a way to improve things. So in terms 00:33:44.259 --> 00:33:46.259 of personal resilience, it's kind of like, you've 00:33:46.259 --> 00:33:48.180 got to say, when you get these setbacks, when 00:33:48.180 --> 00:33:49.980 you get these challenges, you get this adversity, 00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:53.400 you know, don't take it personally. It's not 00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:55.140 like somebody is out to get you. They may be, 00:33:55.140 --> 00:33:56.980 but they're coming from a place of ignorance. 00:33:57.119 --> 00:33:59.079 They're coming from places. You know something 00:33:59.079 --> 00:34:01.220 they don't know. You realize something they don't 00:34:01.220 --> 00:34:04.220 realize. Somebody called, I think it's Lou Holtz, 00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:06.160 the American guy. I'm not big on quotes, but 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:10.039 he said, Show me somebody who's achieved anything 00:34:10.039 --> 00:34:11.719 in life and I'll show you somebody who's had 00:34:11.719 --> 00:34:14.079 to deal with adversity. And that's the point. 00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:17.320 I like that really, I like extending it a bit, 00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:20.159 which is kind of like, if you're not pushing 00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:23.500 the boundaries, if you're not feeling adversity, 00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:25.199 you're not actually doing anything worthwhile, 00:34:25.639 --> 00:34:26.679 which is a little bit controversial, a little 00:34:26.679 --> 00:34:27.760 bit challenging. It's kind of like, you know, 00:34:27.780 --> 00:34:29.659 well, I do lots of things worthwhile. Well, actually, 00:34:30.039 --> 00:34:33.059 how worthwhile is it, right? Because whoever 00:34:33.059 --> 00:34:35.980 did anything exciting or innovative, or achieved 00:34:35.980 --> 00:34:38.219 anything from a position of playing it safe. 00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:39.320 And that's what you're doing, you're playing 00:34:39.320 --> 00:34:41.840 it safe constantly. And entrepreneur needs to 00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:45.699 be happy with, happy is the wrong word. And entrepreneur 00:34:45.699 --> 00:34:48.119 needs to be comfortable with risk and needs to 00:34:48.119 --> 00:34:50.380 be comfortable with uncertainty. I don't think 00:34:50.380 --> 00:34:52.579 you can possibly get into setting up your own 00:34:52.579 --> 00:34:55.340 business without understanding that that is the 00:34:55.340 --> 00:34:58.130 case. And I'm not saying that there's... no risk 00:34:58.130 --> 00:34:59.710 so therefore you go and do something. There's 00:34:59.710 --> 00:35:01.269 always a risk if you're doing something for the 00:35:01.269 --> 00:35:03.750 first time. There's always a risk if you're changing 00:35:03.750 --> 00:35:05.750 the conventional wisdom because the conventional 00:35:05.750 --> 00:35:08.530 wisdom is a non -risky version. It's the version 00:35:08.530 --> 00:35:10.809 over time that has been proved to work. Now you're 00:35:10.809 --> 00:35:11.849 saying, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to 00:35:11.849 --> 00:35:13.309 do this instead. I'm going to be a good guy. 00:35:13.570 --> 00:35:15.349 It won't work. It won't work. And there are reasons 00:35:15.349 --> 00:35:17.489 why. And there are reasons why. But you still 00:35:17.489 --> 00:35:19.030 have got to say, well, I'll make it work anyway. 00:35:19.489 --> 00:35:21.349 And that's the issue about risk. So I think you 00:35:21.349 --> 00:35:23.369 have to be able to recognize the risk and mitigate 00:35:23.369 --> 00:35:25.079 the risk. and then you have to be able to deal 00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:27.000 with uncertainty and uncertainty is all around 00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:29.739 us. I mean you know talk about these days we 00:35:29.739 --> 00:35:32.300 thought with Brexit and we thought with with 00:35:32.300 --> 00:35:34.360 Covid and we thought with war and we thought 00:35:34.360 --> 00:35:36.360 with cross -living crisis and we thought with 00:35:36.360 --> 00:35:38.820 that's that's all you know we can't get any worse 00:35:38.820 --> 00:35:40.699 or it can't get any more uncertain and now we 00:35:40.699 --> 00:35:43.599 got we got tariffs and we got Trump but we got 00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:45.340 we got uncertainty with the war is still there 00:35:45.340 --> 00:35:47.639 and also things are happening which people are 00:35:47.639 --> 00:35:49.679 talking about and making you know maybe maybe 00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:51.820 making more out of it than it is but it's a very 00:35:51.820 --> 00:35:54.500 uncertain world. And all I ever would ever say 00:35:54.500 --> 00:35:56.320 is it's always been a really uncertain world. 00:35:56.500 --> 00:35:59.280 You know, my father -in -law, obviously German, 00:35:59.619 --> 00:36:02.280 he grew up here as a child after the war. And 00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:04.320 it was a crazy time. It was like, you know, the 00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:06.380 whole place was in ruins. And they had to kind 00:36:06.380 --> 00:36:08.300 of just figure it out and grow the business, 00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:10.320 grow the country back again. But it was at a 00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:14.579 very challenging time, but a very challenging 00:36:14.579 --> 00:36:18.199 time in one way, but a huge opportunity in another. 00:36:18.820 --> 00:36:21.019 So I think uncertainty brings opportunity. And 00:36:21.019 --> 00:36:22.800 I think the more uncertainty, the better for 00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:26.619 a startup. The status quo favors the establishment. 00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:28.980 I think that's always the way. And the establishment 00:36:28.980 --> 00:36:32.219 likes to have a certain future and can make plans 00:36:32.219 --> 00:36:34.599 strategically. Whereas a small guy is much more 00:36:34.599 --> 00:36:37.059 agile and can move around and change things and 00:36:37.059 --> 00:36:40.739 take advantage of situations which just a large 00:36:40.739 --> 00:36:42.980 organization can't. And I think basically, if 00:36:42.980 --> 00:36:44.380 you take it all together, that's what an entrepreneur 00:36:44.380 --> 00:36:46.869 is. So it stands to reason that you're going 00:36:46.869 --> 00:36:48.769 to get more than your fair share of adversity. 00:36:48.989 --> 00:36:51.929 It just stands to reason. I always say that adversity 00:36:51.929 --> 00:36:54.730 is your friend, because it demonstrates that 00:36:54.730 --> 00:36:56.449 this is the case. You're in a very uncertain 00:36:56.449 --> 00:36:58.289 environment, but you can take advantage of that. 00:36:58.329 --> 00:37:00.210 You can see the opportunity. You can chase that 00:37:00.210 --> 00:37:02.170 opportunity. Think of all those businesses that 00:37:02.170 --> 00:37:09.050 came out of the 2008 recession. But Airbnb, WhatsApp, 00:37:09.250 --> 00:37:11.909 Uber, a lot of those problems came out of them 00:37:11.909 --> 00:37:14.010 at that point when everybody was thinking, oh, 00:37:14.070 --> 00:37:15.550 yeah, I'll let the dust settle. I'll sit down 00:37:15.550 --> 00:37:18.530 and put my tin hat on and I'll wait for things 00:37:18.530 --> 00:37:21.510 to improve. Well, you do that, but you lose the 00:37:21.510 --> 00:37:23.309 opportunity that exists because of the chaos 00:37:23.309 --> 00:37:25.869 and the uncertainty that is there, economic chaos 00:37:25.869 --> 00:37:29.110 in that case. So I would come back to your question. 00:37:29.409 --> 00:37:32.050 I'm a great believer that resilience comes out 00:37:32.050 --> 00:37:35.860 of really understanding that Risk is your friend 00:37:35.860 --> 00:37:38.159 if you can recognize it and mitigate it. Don't 00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:41.539 ignore it. And uncertainty is your friend because 00:37:41.539 --> 00:37:43.500 the more uncertainty the more opportunity it 00:37:43.500 --> 00:37:46.960 presents. And the third thing is don't take setbacks 00:37:46.960 --> 00:37:48.760 personally because setbacks demonstrate that 00:37:48.760 --> 00:37:51.079 you're on to a good thing. There's more roadworks 00:37:51.079 --> 00:37:53.079 in the way. You take the path of least resistance 00:37:53.079 --> 00:37:55.179 and it means you're doing things like everybody 00:37:55.179 --> 00:37:56.820 else has done in the past or you've got a regular 00:37:56.820 --> 00:37:59.820 job. Take the entrepreneurial route and you're 00:37:59.820 --> 00:38:01.639 going to get a lot of resistance. And that's 00:38:01.639 --> 00:38:03.599 just the way it is. You have to expect that to 00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:06.119 be the case. So if you find that you're sitting 00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:08.219 there in the middle of a problem, what do I do 00:38:08.219 --> 00:38:10.739 next? How do I go forward? Then I think being 00:38:10.739 --> 00:38:13.300 an entrepreneur, you seek out opportunities and 00:38:13.300 --> 00:38:14.920 you understand that you need to be resilient, 00:38:15.079 --> 00:38:17.599 not because you need to be Superman or Superwoman. 00:38:17.940 --> 00:38:19.820 No, you just need to be honest with yourself. 00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:22.000 That's how it's going to be, because that's the 00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:23.989 path you chose. And that's all I've ever known. 00:38:24.190 --> 00:38:25.570 I came out of university and did this thing about 00:38:25.570 --> 00:38:27.210 Andrew with Newcomen Garden Soup, then I did 00:38:27.210 --> 00:38:29.110 the States, then I did the Little Dish thing, 00:38:29.329 --> 00:38:31.789 and now I do more entrepreneurial things. I wouldn't 00:38:31.789 --> 00:38:33.590 know how to do anything else anyway, so it's 00:38:33.590 --> 00:38:36.070 not as if I had a huge choice. I did have a choice 00:38:36.070 --> 00:38:41.369 though to sit and wallow in my misfortune or 00:38:41.369 --> 00:38:44.730 carry out a very protracted post -mortem of what 00:38:44.730 --> 00:38:47.090 the problem was and wonder if and should have, 00:38:47.130 --> 00:38:48.730 could have, would have, sure you could do that, 00:38:48.750 --> 00:38:50.909 and you do do that. but only for a few weeks 00:38:50.909 --> 00:38:52.369 and then I think you got to put it behind you 00:38:52.369 --> 00:38:54.789 and you got to learn from it and the last point 00:38:54.789 --> 00:38:57.090 I make on this is I think the real learning from 00:38:57.090 --> 00:38:59.710 it is that it's a failure and a failure hurts 00:38:59.710 --> 00:39:02.309 like hell and you can't make a career out of 00:39:02.309 --> 00:39:04.469 failure but I think there's a huge opportunity 00:39:04.469 --> 00:39:07.869 from a failure meaning that if you if you want 00:39:07.869 --> 00:39:10.250 to learn from failure you got to absolutely got 00:39:10.250 --> 00:39:13.130 to recognize that it does hurt like hell so failure 00:39:13.130 --> 00:39:15.170 is not a great place to be or it's a wonderful 00:39:15.170 --> 00:39:17.429 place to have been because it does hurt like 00:39:17.429 --> 00:39:19.190 hell and if you're allowed to feel that pain 00:39:19.190 --> 00:39:20.929 then you're going to think there's one thing 00:39:20.929 --> 00:39:22.409 I'm going to make sure is that I never feel this 00:39:22.409 --> 00:39:24.469 pain again and you kick on from there and that's 00:39:24.469 --> 00:39:26.309 a great lesson. That's why failure is a great 00:39:26.309 --> 00:39:28.869 lesson I think as much more than success is. 00:39:29.309 --> 00:39:31.329 So it kind of was all those thoughts kind of 00:39:31.329 --> 00:39:33.329 working around in my head coming out of the States 00:39:33.329 --> 00:39:35.730 experience I moved to Germany had a clean break 00:39:35.730 --> 00:39:38.050 I've had to get my head clear of all of that 00:39:38.050 --> 00:39:40.070 and then decide what I was going to do next. 00:39:40.269 --> 00:39:42.610 And I get all those elements are part of what 00:39:42.610 --> 00:39:44.409 made me decide what I was going to do next. And 00:39:44.409 --> 00:39:46.050 I'm curious to one thing because now you're an 00:39:46.050 --> 00:39:48.329 investor as well. So when you're looking at early 00:39:48.329 --> 00:39:50.289 stage startups, what's the one thing you kind 00:39:50.289 --> 00:39:52.809 of pinpoint or you're always trying to find that 00:39:52.809 --> 00:39:54.110 in an entrepreneur and you know, they're going 00:39:54.110 --> 00:39:55.969 to be successful because they have A, B and C. 00:39:56.369 --> 00:39:59.150 What are those things? Did you say agency? Yeah, 00:39:59.269 --> 00:40:03.780 yeah. You mentioned being resilient and able 00:40:03.780 --> 00:40:07.039 to manage with all the curveballs that life throws 00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:08.480 at you, but how are you able to find that in 00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:11.440 an entrepreneur? Absolutely, I think that's a 00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:14.239 really good question. People ask me this about 00:40:14.239 --> 00:40:16.920 having gone to the dark side, having been an 00:40:16.920 --> 00:40:19.300 entrepreneur. By the way, in each of the three 00:40:19.300 --> 00:40:21.039 businesses, I raised money from institutional 00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:23.840 investors, so we had VCs or private equity in 00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:26.539 each case. I've always sat at the table with 00:40:26.539 --> 00:40:28.400 those guys. Now I'm sitting at the other side 00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:30.920 of the table. as though as that guy with the 00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:34.480 entrepreneur and it's really interesting environment 00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:36.260 especially how coming from the entrepreneurial 00:40:36.260 --> 00:40:38.599 side but to answer your question it's kind of 00:40:38.599 --> 00:40:40.840 like there's 20 things probably that an investor 00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:43.880 would look at more I mean you know as complicated 00:40:43.880 --> 00:40:45.659 as a business can be and I think you really want 00:40:45.659 --> 00:40:47.139 to look at it in a simplified version don't think 00:40:47.139 --> 00:40:49.480 it's too complicated otherwise you look at 100 00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:51.579 things there's probably 20 things you want to 00:40:51.579 --> 00:40:54.059 look at in any business from an investment perspective 00:40:54.059 --> 00:40:57.349 and They might be wrong or they might be right 00:40:57.349 --> 00:40:59.110 through your due diligence you think that's a 00:40:59.110 --> 00:41:01.670 bit weird or that's a problem or Maybe we can 00:41:01.670 --> 00:41:04.130 help them put that right. I think within those 00:41:04.130 --> 00:41:06.190 20 Let's say there's probably three there are 00:41:06.190 --> 00:41:08.809 three things that if they're wrong you walk away 00:41:08.809 --> 00:41:10.949 Now the other thing is the other 17 has called 00:41:10.949 --> 00:41:12.730 them if they're wrong You might think I'll go 00:41:12.730 --> 00:41:14.429 with them anyway, or you might find a way to 00:41:14.429 --> 00:41:17.289 put them, right? Now there's never 17 things 00:41:17.289 --> 00:41:19.570 that are wrong because that's too many, but but 00:41:19.570 --> 00:41:21.670 there's three things if they're wrong I don't 00:41:21.670 --> 00:41:23.480 think there's any way back and it's very difficult 00:41:23.480 --> 00:41:26.420 to put them right. And they are product, scalability, 00:41:27.059 --> 00:41:29.039 and people. Product meaning you have something 00:41:29.039 --> 00:41:30.679 that consumers will buy, you know what I mean? 00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:33.739 So you're meeting a consumer need, a very specific 00:41:33.739 --> 00:41:35.760 consumer need that you've defined, that your 00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:37.500 brand talks to, and all this stuff. So I say 00:41:37.500 --> 00:41:39.719 product, there's a lot in that, but there really 00:41:39.719 --> 00:41:41.500 is a product that makes a difference to a consumer 00:41:41.500 --> 00:41:44.760 group, and they'll buy it. Number two, the scalability 00:41:44.760 --> 00:41:46.340 bit is they'll buy it, and there's lots of them. 00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:48.780 So there's lots of these. It's not a niche market. 00:41:49.299 --> 00:41:51.420 There's an interesting thing we had with Little 00:41:51.420 --> 00:41:53.000 Dish. We were wondering, is it a niche market? 00:41:53.099 --> 00:41:54.880 Is it too small? People aren't having that many 00:41:54.880 --> 00:41:57.920 kids. But it worked out really well. Much smaller 00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:00.760 market than Fresh Soup, everybody almost. But 00:42:00.760 --> 00:42:02.019 by the way, if you try to sell to everybody, 00:42:02.179 --> 00:42:03.480 you end up selling to nobody. So you've got to 00:42:03.480 --> 00:42:05.079 be really careful who you're selling to and define 00:42:05.079 --> 00:42:07.320 that. So parts and scalability have to be, you 00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:08.800 know, they really have to be there. It's very 00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:11.139 difficult to invest in a business if they're 00:42:11.139 --> 00:42:15.039 not. And the third thing is team, people, entrepreneur, 00:42:15.380 --> 00:42:16.579 resilience. Call it what it is, really well. 00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:20.239 And even these days, having gotten into this 00:42:20.239 --> 00:42:24.519 investment situation in a more formal way post 00:42:24.519 --> 00:42:29.239 coming out of Little Dish in 2017. So I've been 00:42:29.239 --> 00:42:32.739 doing it now for six, seven years. I'd probably 00:42:32.739 --> 00:42:36.179 reverse those around and say it's person, team, 00:42:36.639 --> 00:42:39.780 entrepreneur first. and then product and then 00:42:39.780 --> 00:42:41.639 scalability or get me on a bad day and I think 00:42:41.639 --> 00:42:44.940 it's team team team right because it's so important. 00:42:45.059 --> 00:42:47.179 I think that is the thing to answer your question 00:42:47.179 --> 00:42:50.460 that you invest in and I remember sitting in 00:42:50.460 --> 00:42:53.159 conversations with Apex, Apex where the investment 00:42:53.159 --> 00:42:55.019 house that got behind us in New Covent Garden 00:42:55.019 --> 00:42:57.019 way back in the beginning. I remember sitting 00:42:57.019 --> 00:42:59.099 in meetings with Ronald Cohen who subsequently 00:42:59.099 --> 00:43:02.480 became Sir Ronald Cohen and he was a great guy 00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:04.380 actually I remember him I remember saying to 00:43:04.380 --> 00:43:06.900 him so why Why are you investing us in them? 00:43:07.639 --> 00:43:11.519 So what about this proposition makes you feel 00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:13.539 is going to be a success? And I thought he would 00:43:13.539 --> 00:43:15.599 say something like the first two, like product, 00:43:15.880 --> 00:43:17.420 because we're all focused on the product. Product's 00:43:17.420 --> 00:43:19.019 cool, product's cool, really interesting idea, 00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:22.599 different, you either like it or love it, and 00:43:22.599 --> 00:43:23.980 you either love it or hate it. I mean, if you 00:43:23.980 --> 00:43:25.619 hate it, you point out why it won't work, and 00:43:25.619 --> 00:43:27.619 if you love it, you say why it won't work. I 00:43:27.619 --> 00:43:28.840 thought it'd be that. He said, well, you know, 00:43:28.840 --> 00:43:30.679 there is that, of course, but really it's about 00:43:30.679 --> 00:43:32.760 people. What is it about you and Andrew and the 00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:33.820 team you're bringing together? And I thought 00:43:33.820 --> 00:43:36.480 he was kind of basically saying what I wanted 00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:38.659 to hear. But the more I understood this over 00:43:38.659 --> 00:43:40.300 time, the more I see this, especially from the 00:43:40.300 --> 00:43:42.760 investment side, he's right. It's kind of like, 00:43:43.019 --> 00:43:45.039 which do you want to have? If you had to choose 00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:47.119 between a really good entrepreneur and an average 00:43:47.119 --> 00:43:49.380 idea, and an average entrepreneur and a really 00:43:49.380 --> 00:43:51.719 good idea, which would you choose? Now the answer 00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:53.820 is I'd like to have both, of course. But if you 00:43:53.820 --> 00:43:56.380 had to choose, I would always go for the really 00:43:56.380 --> 00:43:58.989 good entrepreneur. and the average idea, because 00:43:58.989 --> 00:44:01.210 a good idea will only ever stay a good idea on 00:44:01.210 --> 00:44:02.590 paper. You have to have a really good entrepreneur 00:44:02.590 --> 00:44:04.630 to implement it. And back to what I was saying 00:44:04.630 --> 00:44:06.570 earlier, you get knockbacks and setbacks and 00:44:06.570 --> 00:44:09.550 challenges and you get so many obstacles in your 00:44:09.550 --> 00:44:13.289 way that you begin to think, are you being singled 00:44:13.289 --> 00:44:15.030 out here? Now you're not, but you're swimming 00:44:15.030 --> 00:44:16.690 against the tide, right? You're doing things 00:44:16.690 --> 00:44:18.849 differently. So you're back to that point before 00:44:18.849 --> 00:44:20.190 you're going to get a lot of obstacles in your 00:44:20.190 --> 00:44:22.590 way, right? So you need to have a really strong 00:44:22.590 --> 00:44:25.329 entrepreneur who is resilient, who has perseverance, 00:44:25.630 --> 00:44:28.739 who doesn't mind getting knocked down and stand 00:44:28.739 --> 00:44:31.380 up each time, who has a thick skin, doesn't think 00:44:31.380 --> 00:44:33.280 to be personally. And that's what Ronald meant, 00:44:33.440 --> 00:44:35.659 actually, way back then. And that's what I think 00:44:35.659 --> 00:44:38.960 I mean now as well, to get to a point where it's 00:44:38.960 --> 00:44:41.260 all about the entrepreneur. So, I answered your 00:44:41.260 --> 00:44:43.340 question. If there is only one thing and you 00:44:43.340 --> 00:44:46.219 had to choose one thing in terms of an investment 00:44:46.219 --> 00:44:49.300 opportunity, and you can't ignore the other 20 00:44:49.300 --> 00:44:52.139 or 19 things, of course not. But if you had to 00:44:52.139 --> 00:44:54.619 say this is key to me and it's not how to walk 00:44:54.619 --> 00:44:57.000 away, then it's the team, it's the entrepreneur. 00:44:57.300 --> 00:45:00.199 It's the level of resilience that the person 00:45:00.199 --> 00:45:02.679 in charge, or the team in charge, or if you're 00:45:02.679 --> 00:45:05.659 a co -founder, the two of you in charge, demonstrate. 00:45:06.119 --> 00:45:08.360 I think then, how many times will you get up 00:45:08.360 --> 00:45:10.599 after you've been knocked down? Those are the 00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:12.659 things that an investor is trying to make a judgment 00:45:12.659 --> 00:45:15.539 on ahead of time, before you're actually put 00:45:15.539 --> 00:45:17.099 to the test. It helps if you've demonstrated 00:45:17.099 --> 00:45:20.269 in that environment already, of course. But I 00:45:20.269 --> 00:45:21.730 think that's it. It's all to do with the person, 00:45:21.949 --> 00:45:24.010 the entrepreneur. What's the best piece of advice 00:45:24.010 --> 00:45:25.570 you ever got? I'll tell you the best piece of 00:45:25.570 --> 00:45:28.329 advice I never got, first. Because that's more 00:45:28.329 --> 00:45:30.489 interesting, I think. And that is, I probably 00:45:30.489 --> 00:45:32.869 never spent enough time reaching out and asking 00:45:32.869 --> 00:45:34.829 for advice. I never spent enough time reaching 00:45:34.829 --> 00:45:37.349 out and asking for help. Because I kind of thought, 00:45:37.409 --> 00:45:39.570 you know, I was new to all this. I started off 00:45:39.570 --> 00:45:41.110 with Newcomen Garden Soup Company and it was 00:45:41.110 --> 00:45:42.650 a success. Don't get me wrong, we had lots of 00:45:42.650 --> 00:45:44.510 setbacks and challenges, but we had a tiger by 00:45:44.510 --> 00:45:47.820 the tail in terms of demand. So that was great. 00:45:48.019 --> 00:45:49.599 It's much better dealing with that than dealing 00:45:49.599 --> 00:45:51.820 with how am I going to sell my next product. 00:45:52.519 --> 00:45:55.659 But I felt that I had to have all the answers 00:45:55.659 --> 00:45:57.679 because I was an entrepreneur and everybody was 00:45:57.679 --> 00:45:59.300 looking at me. And there was a little bit of 00:45:59.300 --> 00:46:01.400 imposter syndrome there. I remember sitting in 00:46:01.400 --> 00:46:04.599 meetings. OK, who's responsible for this? And 00:46:04.599 --> 00:46:06.880 then thinking with dread, oh my god, I am. I'm 00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:08.480 mentally responsible for something to do with 00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:11.559 finance. And I had no clue about finance. No 00:46:11.559 --> 00:46:14.380 knowledge, no experience, no qualification, no 00:46:14.380 --> 00:46:16.679 anything. That's a terrifying place to be. But 00:46:16.679 --> 00:46:18.980 you kind of have to kind of just muddle on, haven't 00:46:18.980 --> 00:46:20.360 you? And everybody's looking at you as the founder 00:46:20.360 --> 00:46:21.980 of the business to make a decision, and you have 00:46:21.980 --> 00:46:24.719 to make a decision. And that's great. That is 00:46:24.719 --> 00:46:26.940 great. It's great, especially if you make the 00:46:26.940 --> 00:46:29.019 right decision, or at least don't kill the business 00:46:29.019 --> 00:46:31.260 by making your own decision. But the problem 00:46:31.260 --> 00:46:32.980 is then you begin to feel you're invincible, 00:46:33.159 --> 00:46:34.500 right? Especially if you're a young guy and you 00:46:34.500 --> 00:46:35.820 don't have any other experience. You've come 00:46:35.820 --> 00:46:37.360 out of university and you're doing this and you're 00:46:37.360 --> 00:46:38.739 like, oh, well, this is how it works. I just 00:46:38.739 --> 00:46:40.920 make decisions and things happen. And luckily 00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:42.880 they did. And if they didn't, then I wouldn't 00:46:42.880 --> 00:46:44.820 be here again telling you about it. But then 00:46:44.820 --> 00:46:46.880 you really do believe that all the answers come 00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:48.860 from you. And I think all the answers can never 00:46:48.860 --> 00:46:51.059 come from you. You've got to find them. Or there 00:46:51.059 --> 00:46:54.079 are lots of easier ways to get the answers. Going 00:46:54.079 --> 00:46:55.719 through the same mistakes over and over again 00:46:55.719 --> 00:46:57.639 that somebody else has. And you can learn from 00:46:57.639 --> 00:47:00.440 them. So I think I really do believe that if 00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:02.320 people are more willing to reach out and ask 00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:04.360 for help, and if I had been more willing to reach 00:47:04.360 --> 00:47:06.579 out for help now, I would have had to ask for 00:47:06.579 --> 00:47:07.960 help, but I also would have had to listen to 00:47:07.960 --> 00:47:09.480 the answer. I'm not guarantee that would have 00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:11.579 been the case either. But I think, you know, 00:47:11.619 --> 00:47:14.260 in the early days or in any day, really, you 00:47:14.260 --> 00:47:16.579 can ask for help. It's amazing how helpful people 00:47:16.579 --> 00:47:18.659 can be and want to actually help. I think if 00:47:18.659 --> 00:47:21.360 you if you can find ways to to leverage other 00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:23.739 people's experience and mistakes. And so at least 00:47:23.739 --> 00:47:24.980 you don't have to make the same mistakes. You 00:47:24.980 --> 00:47:28.210 make other ones, of course. It's your business, 00:47:28.409 --> 00:47:30.210 though. You have to make the judgment call. You 00:47:30.210 --> 00:47:32.449 can't say, oh, somebody gave me this advice and 00:47:32.449 --> 00:47:34.869 therefore I take that advice. I mean, it might 00:47:34.869 --> 00:47:36.849 be the wrong advice. And it's not their fault. 00:47:36.849 --> 00:47:38.369 It's your fault for taking the wrong advice. 00:47:39.230 --> 00:47:41.610 There has to be responsibility in listening, 00:47:41.750 --> 00:47:43.929 asking and listening for sure, but then do I 00:47:43.929 --> 00:47:45.610 take this advice? This is right for me. It's 00:47:45.610 --> 00:47:47.469 right for my business. It's right for the stage 00:47:47.469 --> 00:47:49.409 of growth that I'm in in my business. If you 00:47:49.409 --> 00:47:51.289 take the advice and it works, great. If you take 00:47:51.289 --> 00:47:52.949 the advice and it doesn't work, I mean, that 00:47:52.949 --> 00:47:55.940 is your responsibility. That's your fault. But 00:47:55.940 --> 00:47:57.619 you didn't ask that question, did you? You asked 00:47:57.619 --> 00:48:01.820 a different question, which was the best piece 00:48:01.820 --> 00:48:05.880 of advice I got. To answer the question in that 00:48:05.880 --> 00:48:08.840 regard, I didn't allow myself to listen to much 00:48:08.840 --> 00:48:11.780 advice, which I think my point is that I think 00:48:11.780 --> 00:48:14.360 that was a mistake. I did observe how other people 00:48:14.360 --> 00:48:17.360 did things. I watched other people and I learned 00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:20.869 a lot from how other people... you're probably 00:48:20.869 --> 00:48:22.949 going to think, I'm going to say, did it well. 00:48:23.070 --> 00:48:24.710 But I'm going to say, I learned about some other 00:48:24.710 --> 00:48:26.829 people not doing it well. And I thought, oh, 00:48:26.889 --> 00:48:28.250 well, that's a mistake. And I'm not going to 00:48:28.250 --> 00:48:29.409 do that. I'm not going to mention any names, 00:48:29.429 --> 00:48:31.190 by the way. But there were a number of people 00:48:31.190 --> 00:48:33.530 in the early years where I thought, hey, I'm 00:48:33.530 --> 00:48:35.610 not experienced. I don't really know for sure. 00:48:36.010 --> 00:48:37.909 And this guy is experienced. And he should know 00:48:37.909 --> 00:48:40.289 for sure. I wouldn't do it that way. I mean, 00:48:40.409 --> 00:48:42.409 I just don't think that's going to work. And 00:48:42.409 --> 00:48:45.219 then it didn't work. And I'm going, ah, OK. But 00:48:45.219 --> 00:48:47.400 I learned a really good lesson there that, back 00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:49.800 to my point about advice, that experienced people 00:48:49.800 --> 00:48:52.920 can still make huge mistakes. And it's no guarantee 00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:55.280 that you're not going to make a mistake. I mean, 00:48:55.400 --> 00:48:56.760 I made the mistakes in the States, obviously. 00:48:56.860 --> 00:48:58.900 I made mistakes all over the shop and all the 00:48:58.900 --> 00:49:01.320 businesses that I was involved in. And I guess 00:49:01.320 --> 00:49:03.260 I'll probably still make mistakes. But I hope 00:49:03.260 --> 00:49:04.820 I've got the humility to actually learn from 00:49:04.820 --> 00:49:06.579 that. And I remember thinking at this particular 00:49:06.579 --> 00:49:08.380 occasion, way, way back in probably the early 00:49:08.380 --> 00:49:10.920 90s now, when I was observing this thing going 00:49:10.920 --> 00:49:13.289 on. And I thought this guy should know better. 00:49:13.550 --> 00:49:15.829 He has experience. And it just made me think, 00:49:16.150 --> 00:49:17.530 people with experience don't necessarily know 00:49:17.530 --> 00:49:20.150 any more than you do, right? So I think it's 00:49:20.150 --> 00:49:22.469 a question of judgment. And that's what entrepreneurialism 00:49:22.469 --> 00:49:25.130 is all about. I studied science, which is all 00:49:25.130 --> 00:49:28.130 about first principles and certainty, and making 00:49:28.130 --> 00:49:30.650 sure you build on a theory and build on little 00:49:30.650 --> 00:49:32.730 incremental steps so you can get to a point where 00:49:32.730 --> 00:49:35.730 you go, I am pretty sure now, 99 % of the time, 00:49:35.769 --> 00:49:38.030 if I do this, I have this answer. That's science. 00:49:38.280 --> 00:49:40.800 and technology whereas entrepreneurship is the 00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:42.659 opposite you don't have time for you know develop 00:49:42.659 --> 00:49:45.039 a three -year project to figure out what might 00:49:45.039 --> 00:49:47.260 be right might be wrong. It's all about intuition, 00:49:47.539 --> 00:49:49.760 seat of the pants and judgment and I think if 00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:51.340 you add that to the what I said earlier about 00:49:51.340 --> 00:49:55.039 risk and uncertainty then if you make those judgments 00:49:55.039 --> 00:49:57.280 if you realize that you're responsible you're 00:49:57.280 --> 00:49:59.420 not taking advice from somebody who you know 00:49:59.420 --> 00:50:01.139 your business better than anybody else so you 00:50:01.139 --> 00:50:03.900 have to take the advice and then decide if it's 00:50:03.900 --> 00:50:06.380 the right thing for your business or not. And 00:50:06.380 --> 00:50:08.219 I think that is something that I realized way 00:50:08.219 --> 00:50:10.559 back in the beginning by watching people mostly 00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:13.300 make mistakes. And why? Why have you done all 00:50:13.300 --> 00:50:14.980 this, John? That's a really big question. Help 00:50:14.980 --> 00:50:18.380 me out, Ricardo. Why have I done this? There's 00:50:18.380 --> 00:50:20.000 always crazy motivations, right? If you think 00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:21.860 about, like, a rock band, they probably say, 00:50:21.860 --> 00:50:23.900 oh, we wanted to get all the girls. If you think 00:50:23.900 --> 00:50:26.300 about, you know, just a pure simplistic businessman, 00:50:26.480 --> 00:50:28.019 they'll say, oh, just wanted the money. But why? 00:50:28.179 --> 00:50:30.320 I'm always curious. Like, what prompted you to 00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:32.699 launch this, to continue in this lifestyle? What 00:50:32.699 --> 00:50:35.920 was the why? That is still a big question, but 00:50:35.920 --> 00:50:38.099 that's been very helpful qualifying that. OK, 00:50:38.679 --> 00:50:40.559 so I am. First of all, I don't know anything 00:50:40.559 --> 00:50:42.440 else. I really don't know anything else. I mean, 00:50:42.639 --> 00:50:44.139 it's not like I could go and get a job now. I 00:50:44.139 --> 00:50:45.699 don't think I'd be unemployed. I don't know who 00:50:45.699 --> 00:50:47.039 would employ me. I don't know who would want 00:50:47.039 --> 00:50:50.360 to have me working for them. It's like I really 00:50:50.360 --> 00:50:51.719 don't know. It's just a word I've never been 00:50:51.719 --> 00:50:53.500 in. Straight from the get -go, straight from 00:50:53.500 --> 00:50:56.199 university, I've done this thing, which people 00:50:56.199 --> 00:50:58.739 are called entrepreneurship. And it's not for 00:50:58.739 --> 00:51:00.639 the faint -hearted for sure, but that sounds 00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:02.769 like there's only a select few that should do 00:51:02.769 --> 00:51:04.349 it. No, I think everybody can do it as long as 00:51:04.349 --> 00:51:06.550 they put their mind to it. Well, why have I done 00:51:06.550 --> 00:51:09.730 it? I think it's the search for, either I'm a 00:51:09.730 --> 00:51:12.489 masochist and that's possibly the case because 00:51:12.489 --> 00:51:15.329 I've done it three times now, or maybe it's a 00:51:15.329 --> 00:51:17.170 bit of that, or it's a question of the search 00:51:17.170 --> 00:51:20.250 for learning. It's kind of like, I do believe, 00:51:20.469 --> 00:51:22.170 and I've only been able to think about this since 00:51:22.170 --> 00:51:23.869 the craziness of the three businesses have settled 00:51:23.869 --> 00:51:27.550 down. I think about why I did this. I do like 00:51:27.550 --> 00:51:30.309 learning. I do like... Imagine I like being proved 00:51:30.309 --> 00:51:32.510 wrong, but I sometimes like being surprised. 00:51:32.949 --> 00:51:34.849 For example, I remember somebody came to me with 00:51:34.849 --> 00:51:36.969 a business plan, and people come to me with business 00:51:36.969 --> 00:51:38.469 plans all the time, and I don't really have time 00:51:38.469 --> 00:51:41.550 always to look at them in detail. But this particular 00:51:41.550 --> 00:51:43.489 person, she came to me at a conference, and I 00:51:43.489 --> 00:51:45.090 said, should we look at my business plan as well? 00:51:45.230 --> 00:51:47.250 OK, I will. Over lunch, let's go and have lunch. 00:51:47.429 --> 00:51:49.489 We'll have a sandwich and a coffee. And she demonstrated 00:51:49.489 --> 00:51:50.650 a business plan. It was really interesting. I 00:51:50.650 --> 00:51:52.989 thought, OK, that's not bad. And there were certain 00:51:52.989 --> 00:51:55.070 things in there that were just wrong, but not 00:51:55.070 --> 00:51:57.050 because... She was wrong about it. She didn't 00:51:57.050 --> 00:51:58.469 have the experience. And that's what she was 00:51:58.469 --> 00:52:02.110 asking me for. So I said, you should really consider 00:52:02.110 --> 00:52:04.949 this, because it always, in theory, works like 00:52:04.949 --> 00:52:06.429 that, but never really in practice works like 00:52:06.429 --> 00:52:08.210 that. And maybe you should change this around. 00:52:08.909 --> 00:52:10.389 Yeah, it was literally a half an hour conversation. 00:52:10.619 --> 00:52:11.940 And then she called me up two weeks later and 00:52:11.940 --> 00:52:13.960 I said, oh my god, here she is again. I thought 00:52:13.960 --> 00:52:15.659 that was done. No, she wanted to talk about it 00:52:15.659 --> 00:52:17.739 again. I said, okay. And she had listened to 00:52:17.739 --> 00:52:20.480 all the things I'd said and incorporated them 00:52:20.480 --> 00:52:22.400 and changed them in her business plan and changed 00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:23.960 them in her business model. So this assumption 00:52:23.960 --> 00:52:25.380 she had in her business model was now different 00:52:25.380 --> 00:52:27.139 because of the conversation we had. I think, 00:52:27.360 --> 00:52:29.860 okay, she was listening. Well, you know, that's 00:52:29.860 --> 00:52:32.480 great. But in addition to that, there were other 00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:34.719 things I'd said that she hadn't incorporated, 00:52:34.780 --> 00:52:36.800 but she didn't say, you know, she didn't ignore 00:52:36.800 --> 00:52:38.840 them. She said, now you said about this and about 00:52:38.840 --> 00:52:40.820 this and I've been thinking about this. And I 00:52:40.820 --> 00:52:43.079 can see how you'd say that. But I actually think 00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:45.519 the opposite. And she gave a really good justification 00:52:45.519 --> 00:52:48.219 for why she thought the opposite. And that's 00:52:48.219 --> 00:52:50.000 an example of what I think of taking responsibility 00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:53.260 for your own business, having control of your 00:52:53.260 --> 00:52:55.500 own business destiny. You ask somebody advice, 00:52:55.559 --> 00:52:57.639 you take the bits you want, then you think about 00:52:57.639 --> 00:52:59.519 the other bits which you don't think work, and 00:52:59.519 --> 00:53:02.159 then you don't take them. And you push back. 00:53:02.300 --> 00:53:04.659 So she pushed back to me and went, I like this 00:53:04.659 --> 00:53:06.519 bit and this bit. I put it in. I don't like this 00:53:06.519 --> 00:53:08.599 bit. Let me tell you why. And I'm there going, 00:53:09.129 --> 00:53:11.010 Well, that's fantastic. You know your business 00:53:11.010 --> 00:53:13.570 a lot better than I do. I give you advice, and 00:53:13.570 --> 00:53:15.250 I'm having coffee in the meantime. I'm thinking 00:53:15.250 --> 00:53:18.289 of something else. But it's up to you to do something 00:53:18.289 --> 00:53:20.550 with that advice. And you absolutely have taken 00:53:20.550 --> 00:53:22.750 this and not taken that, and now coming up with 00:53:22.750 --> 00:53:25.090 a justified argument to say why I don't think 00:53:25.090 --> 00:53:27.230 this is right for me. Not just I don't like it, 00:53:27.230 --> 00:53:29.030 or I'm going to ignore it, or I don't want to 00:53:29.030 --> 00:53:30.469 talk about that bit because I think you're wrong. 00:53:30.530 --> 00:53:32.230 I don't want to tell you you're wrong because 00:53:32.230 --> 00:53:35.130 I've asked you what you think is right. And I 00:53:35.130 --> 00:53:37.579 thought, wow. Well, you know what? This is very 00:53:37.579 --> 00:53:39.260 interesting. First of all, the business is interesting. 00:53:39.539 --> 00:53:41.579 Secondly, the product is interesting. But thirdly, 00:53:41.579 --> 00:53:44.099 more importantly, you're interesting. And I might 00:53:44.099 --> 00:53:46.500 even put money behind you in terms of let's look 00:53:46.500 --> 00:53:48.059 more closely at this business. And I did actually 00:53:48.059 --> 00:53:50.079 invest in your business. And I went from there. 00:53:50.460 --> 00:53:52.840 So I really like that. I feel through the energy. 00:53:53.079 --> 00:53:54.420 It's kind of like, you know, it's kind of taking 00:53:54.420 --> 00:53:56.480 the best bits that I can give with the best bits 00:53:56.480 --> 00:53:58.719 somebody else can give on something else. I'm 00:53:58.719 --> 00:54:00.420 putting it together to get the best possible 00:54:00.420 --> 00:54:02.559 environment or outcome or set of assumptions 00:54:02.559 --> 00:54:05.929 or business. And I think that's. a real definition 00:54:05.929 --> 00:54:08.449 of synergy and that's really exciting and I like 00:54:08.449 --> 00:54:10.750 being part of those sort of situations because 00:54:10.750 --> 00:54:12.949 I could give the benefit of my knowledge, wisdom, 00:54:13.130 --> 00:54:14.849 experience, colour what you like but it's not 00:54:14.849 --> 00:54:18.369 always exactly right for every situation. What 00:54:18.369 --> 00:54:20.929 you need then is a smart entrepreneur who actually 00:54:20.929 --> 00:54:23.750 manifests that and demonstrates that and I learn 00:54:23.750 --> 00:54:27.630 something. It's those sorts of situations I like 00:54:27.630 --> 00:54:29.809 being in because I do learn something and I'm 00:54:29.809 --> 00:54:32.119 challenged to think about Yeah, but why would 00:54:32.119 --> 00:54:33.900 you do it that way? And the worst answer I've 00:54:33.900 --> 00:54:36.079 ever heard is, well, that's how it works around 00:54:36.079 --> 00:54:38.019 here. That's how the food industry works. Well, 00:54:38.079 --> 00:54:39.539 that's the most stupid reason to ever do it in 00:54:39.539 --> 00:54:41.239 the first place. Maybe we should think of a different 00:54:41.239 --> 00:54:43.380 way of doing it. And I think when you're putting 00:54:43.380 --> 00:54:45.460 it in an entrepreneur environment, you come up 00:54:45.460 --> 00:54:47.920 against people and environments and situations 00:54:47.920 --> 00:54:50.119 and examples like that. And that's not more often 00:54:50.119 --> 00:54:51.940 than you do if you're not. So that's why I'm 00:54:51.940 --> 00:54:54.320 still involved in it. I'm more involved on the 00:54:54.320 --> 00:54:56.559 investment side now. But I still have conversations 00:54:56.559 --> 00:54:58.659 like this. And that excites me. And that keeps 00:54:58.659 --> 00:55:00.880 me going. I'm not going to set up a fourth business, 00:55:01.099 --> 00:55:02.500 by the way, Ricardo, unless you're asking me. 00:55:02.780 --> 00:55:04.599 But I'm still involved in the industry, still 00:55:04.599 --> 00:55:06.539 involved in the ecosystem, and I love the entrepreneurial 00:55:06.539 --> 00:55:08.599 way of life, and I wouldn't want it anyway, anyway 00:55:08.599 --> 00:55:12.579 else. That makes sense. John, as we're reaching 00:55:12.579 --> 00:55:14.440 the end of the podcast, if people want to reach 00:55:14.440 --> 00:55:16.380 out to you, what's the best way of doing so? 00:55:16.920 --> 00:55:18.420 Wow. I mean, it's really easy to reach out to 00:55:18.420 --> 00:55:20.280 me. Just go on LinkedIn. I'm all over LinkedIn. 00:55:20.539 --> 00:55:22.980 I suppose people say to me, I am anyway. And 00:55:22.980 --> 00:55:25.099 so, yeah, just DM me on LinkedIn. That's the 00:55:25.099 --> 00:55:27.039 best way to do it. I have a website. I do a bit 00:55:27.039 --> 00:55:30.670 of I give some keynote speeches and stuff like 00:55:30.670 --> 00:55:33.289 that. My LinkedIn is more to do with the business 00:55:33.289 --> 00:55:36.090 interests I've got. You'll see that on my website, 00:55:36.170 --> 00:55:39.369 which is really simple. It's www .johnstapleton 00:55:39.369 --> 00:55:42.550 .eu. That talks about me as a keynote speaker 00:55:42.550 --> 00:55:44.889 and the kind of talking I do about the wider 00:55:44.889 --> 00:55:47.489 picture and the wider environment. So you can 00:55:47.489 --> 00:55:49.510 get me at either of those. But I think the easiest 00:55:49.510 --> 00:55:52.449 way is just look me up on LinkedIn and DM me. 00:55:53.239 --> 00:55:55.380 I promise to get back to you. It might not be 00:55:55.380 --> 00:55:57.179 within 24 hours, but I will get back to you. 00:55:57.380 --> 00:55:58.980 Sounds good. John, thank you so much for your 00:55:58.980 --> 00:56:00.739 time. I really enjoy your conversation. Oh, I 00:56:00.739 --> 00:56:01.980 enjoyed the chat, too. Thanks for the questions. 00:56:02.159 --> 00:56:04.019 Really, really useful. Take care. Thank you. 00:56:04.239 --> 00:56:06.699 The podcast is also sponsored by Notion .so. 00:56:07.119 --> 00:56:09.179 Notion is offering six months for free for new 00:56:09.179 --> 00:56:11.800 users. Make sure you check out our website, the 00:56:11.800 --> 00:56:14.159 startupevents .co .uk, to read in the software. 00:56:14.329 --> 00:56:17.469 This podcast is also sponsored by startupnetworks 00:56:17.469 --> 00:56:21.030 .co .uk. Startup networks, it's an online forum 00:56:21.030 --> 00:56:23.050 where you can find all the resources you need 00:56:23.050 --> 00:56:25.570 to run your startup. From grants to investors 00:56:25.570 --> 00:56:27.730 to tips and tricks on how to be successful in 00:56:27.730 --> 00:56:30.510 your startup. This podcast is also sponsored 00:56:30.510 --> 00:56:34.090 by ODEV Tech. ODEV Tech is your premier software 00:56:34.090 --> 00:56:35.969 development partner. Make sure you check them 00:56:35.969 --> 00:56:38.730 out at odev .tech.