Welcome to the Innovation Conversation, a podcast
about innovators, both in business and real life.
Hosted by myself, Ricardo Rescual and Harry McCona.
This podcast is also sponsored by ODEV Tech.
ODEV Tech is your premier software development
partner. Make sure you check them out at odev
.tech. The podcast is also sponsored by Notion
.so. Notion is offering six months for free for
new users. Make sure you check out our website,
the storeupevents .co .uk to read in the software.
Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Innovation
Conversation. Today we are joined by Sara Landi
Tortoli. Sara, welcome to the podcast. Hi, Ricardo.
Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, it's a
pleasure. Sara, would you like to introduce yourself
to the audience, please? Like I just told Ricardo,
I really suck at this question. That's the, like,
that's the toughest question for me, but I guess
that, yeah. My name is Sara Landitortoli. I am
a product manager who happened to work in AI
and machine learning for the past seven years.
Now, I guess I'm what you will call a solopreneur.
So I try to build my own startup. Maybe we can
touch upon that. I consult businesses on AI implementation,
and I am also a content creator. So I have my
own podcast. which is called Poliwab. And I also
have my own TikTok, Instagram, and of course,
LinkedIn. So you do quite a lot, keep yourself
really busy. And how, you know, moving from a
product manager, product owner to actually launching
your own business, how was that journey like?
What prompted you to change? A burnout. So apparently,
I'm only able to change through pain. Not through
nice incentives. So I had a burnout, but I also
didn't know I was burnout. I only realized it
when I took, you know, I had a lot of vacations
to take because I never took vacation. And then
I realized that, yeah, there is something wrong
with me. I was also not performing as well as
I should have. in the last two or three months
in my job, like I physically couldn't. And so
I took a year off. Like it didn't start out like
that. It started out like, okay, I'm just going
to take like a few months, you know, and then,
you know, apply again to a job. That didn't quite
work out like that because with time and a lot
of, you know, more things suddenly, sorry. I'm
going to say that again. With a lot of time off,
I realized that I couldn't possibly go back to
a full -time job. And so I started to, you know,
like, okay, what's left? If I don't have a full
-time job, how do I make money? And what's calling
me? And I realized that I really wanted to do
my own thing. And I thought, oh my God, since
I'm a product manager, doing my own startup is
going to be so much easier. I mean, I already
know how to build products. No, it's completely
different. Like, it's not the same thing at all.
Yeah, sure, it helps. In some ways. But in other
ways, it's, it's, it's not helpful. It's actually
harmful. In some other ways. So what was like
the the main lessons you learned on that journey?
Because I imagine it must have been like, like
you just said, quite a big chunk, like, okay,
I actually need to do a lot more stuff than that
I was hoping to do. In transitioning from a product
manager role to an entrepreneur, have a distribution.
That's the biggest lesson that I learned. If
you want to launch something today, what you
really, really need to have is distribution.
This is the number one lesson that I learned.
You need to have a go -to -market that is hands
-on, nailed down. That's easier if you already
have a distribution channel, because the greatest
product, if your go -to -market sucks, is never
going to reach the hands of your user. So that's
one of the things that I figure out. The other
thing that I figure out is that the people that
you build it with, so the people that are your
co -founders and you share your journey with,
pick them carefully. and be very aware of your
own limitations and your weak point, because
the minute that you start building something,
they are going to show up and stare at your face
constantly. All your limitations in terms of
not just skills, but also belief. If you don't
believe you can do something fully and just fake
it until you make it, I found out that fake it
until you make it doesn't really work. That's
another lesson. You actually have to believe
it. So that was my three short and sweet, not
so short, but three sweet learnings from this
entire experience. You're also an entrepreneur,
by the way. So what would you say if you have
to pick three biggest learnings? I think that
at this stage, we're probably best off just revealing
that you also have a podcast. So you ask a lot
of questions on a regular basis. Yeah, sorry,
like, I'm very bad at being like, interviewed,
I feel much more comfortable asking questions.
So like, like, listener will forgive me if sometimes
questions back to Ricardo. No, I think I think
you actually touched upon a couple of points
that I find to be quite interesting. The first
one is you mentioned you kind of Like your limitations
are going to get back to you very quickly. And
I find that that happens every day. However,
we have so many tools at our disposal nowadays.
I mean, I use a lot of AI. I think most people
use a lot of AI nowadays, which really does help
to understand things. Things that probably before
ChatGPT, I would take ages to find out what they
actually mean, what they actually do. Nowadays,
I just say, hey, what exactly does this mean?
Explain it to me. And then I have a full explanation.
So I'm able to process information. and act upon
information a lot quicker. And that is super
impactful. Even though I might not know the right
answers, I know where to get them. I know how
to act upon them. So that makes a big difference.
And then you mentioned picking co -founders.
I think that's probably one of the best or the
hardest things you need to do, which is how I'm
going to pick the right person. And also what
seems right in one month might not seem right
six months on the line. So having that flexibility.
to be able to work with someone that's really,
really important. It's also quite hard. And I
highly recommend always getting like a founders
agreement in place. So what do you do when things
go bad? And then that all needs to be written
down. And it needs to be written down when it's
everyone's like at peace and everyone's super
happy with each other. Because then you make
something that's fair. Because if you're trying
to negotiate that. Pass that stage it's not gonna
be fair to anyone so yeah was it helpful for
you to have negotiated before hand i've learned
the lesson hard way yes i had to learn the lesson
the hard way but yeah i think i think that's
probably one of the biggest takings for me is
like get a founders agreement in place i think
it's probably something if you want to get married
just kept like a prenup because then when things
go bad they're really they go bad so yeah. Yeah,
because like really your co -founders, you spend
more time with them than any family member. Like
if you're married, you know, with kids, like
you're going to spend more time with your co
-founders and your family, especially if you're
trying to build a startup, which when it's early
stage, it's super time consuming. Like you live
and breathe for that. And like if you're not
a hundred percent strong in your co -founder's
relationship, that's going to come back to haunt
you. It's all sort of thing. The vision that
you have for the company needs to be aligned.
You both need to want the same thing. You both
need to share what's this thing going to be like
in the end, even though you might not fully agree
how to get there at every single point. That's
okay, but as long as you have... the same vision
at the end. That's really, really helpful. And
then like there is the day to day, the needy,
greedy, like the working style and yeah, it's
a lot. I'm curious, sorry. How did you come up
with the idea for your startup? I was doing a
bit of personal experience and a bit because
I was doing a lot of research and I saw the numbers
and I was like, there is something here for context.
Like I'm just going to explain briefly what the
startup was like. I was going to build an AI
companion. That unlike normally companions that
keep you keep you in the app talking, you know,
just with a chatbot will match you with other
people. Okay. Yeah. So like we had, we thought
at the beginning friends, of course, we were
aware that romantic relationships are much more
of a driver for adoption, but at the beginning
it was meant to, you know, to be like an AI companion
that helps you find friends. And, and I came
up with this idea because first. When I moved
to Berlin, I experienced loneliness a lot. Berlin
can be quite a tough city to leave. Sometimes
when I was alone by myself on Saturday nights
without nothing to do, I felt so alone. That
was seven years ago, right? If I ever had a chatbot
seven years ago that I could talk to, On that
Saturday night, I will have, you know, just to
hear the voice of someone, because you can't
call your friend on Saturday nights, like they're
out doing their own things, right? And you're
not physically in the same nation, so it doesn't
really help. So that was one observation. And
then I started doing research, and I saw the
numbers behind the AI companions. I saw the retention
numbers. And it's crazy, the willingness to pay
for you from users. It's like crazy. There is
really a loneliness epidemic and something about
people wanting to really be able to confide into
someone and not finding this in real life. And
so we thought, okay, this is also going to be
dangerous if more people rely on AI companions
moving forward. We're not going to be able to
talk with each other. So what if we What if we
use an AI companion to actually help people getting
closer? You know, so that was the idea. It's
a very good idea and it's a big problem, isn't
it? We keep on playing with our phones instead
of talking to people in real life. Yeah, I spent
a lot of time doing research for this product
and the people that I talked to, the things that
I found countless hours on Reddit. I possibly
read every Reddit thread that was out there.
I even recorded a podcast episode that never
went live because I interviewed five people that
were daily AI companion users since years. Unfortunately,
I couldn't release the podcast because I was
denied permission and I didn't want to. like
for the people to be uncomfortable. But I learned
so much about the human condition through the
research I did to build the startup. And really,
like I am astonished, like both on the upside
and the downsides. But let's go back a step here
so we can tell our listeners. So you're in Italy
and you moved to Berlin and you launched the
startup in Berlin, right? Yeah, so I was in Italy.
I got a job offer from Zalando. Zalando is one
of the, probably the biggest fashion e -commerce
in Europe. So got a job at Zalando and moved
to Berlin because of that, because the headquarter
of Zalando is Berlin. I became a product manager
there while I was at Zalando. And then I, you
know, I had other jobs, you know, and then, yeah,
like basically that after, I think it was like
after like... Five years in Berlin, I decided
to, you know, like, yeah, let's do it. Let's
start the entrepreneurship journey. Six years.
Six years. Sorry. And how far, how far did it
go with your company? We were onboarding users
to test our MVP. So that's how far we went. I
started to have like conversations to do the
first fundraising. So like, you know, talking
to VCs and stuff like that. So still very early
stage, but we had like for the first users, you
know, onboarded and we were gathering feedback.
We were organizing events in Berlin to get people
excited, you know, to talk about loneliness and
yeah. So that's how far we went. It must be a
fun city to organize events, I'm assuming. Because
Berlin is kind of known for its crazy nightlife
and all that. Yeah. I mean, Berlin, I think it's...
I mean, I know that you're all in London and
you're going to disagree with me, but I think
Berlin is the coolest city in Europe, possibly.
But I left, so I left in December. But when it
comes to events, I think London, Berlin, or Paris
possibly are fun cities. The thing with London
is everything closes quite early, which for me,
it's always a pain point because I'm always like,
I want to party the night away. I want to party
until it's breakfast time. But people kind of
shut down at 11. And if you're really lucky,
you might find a club that closes at 3am. But
apart from that, everyone just goes home super
early, which really drives me nuts, to be honest.
Okay, definitely then Berlin should have been
your city because in Berlin, you can party nonstop
from like Friday till Monday. Like literally,
there are clubs that are open. the entire weekend
like Berghain is open the entire weekend. Like
people actually go there like at Sunday during
breakfast, you know, like you wake up. Yeah,
it's very common because there it's like a bit
less crowded, like it's difficult to get in right.
And if you go on a Saturday night, there is going
to be like, probably like kilometers of lines
like, you know, like to enter the club with no
guarantee that you can get you will enter the
crowd. Did you ever manage to get into the club?
Yes, I managed. But because I looked like after
a few years, I looked Berliner enough, right?
Like, so you need to look like not a tourist.
I see. Okay. Like you have to have the Berlin
vibe. It's like, yeah, je ne sais quoi, you know,
like I don't know what vibe, like little Berlin
something. But yeah, you can go there and people
usually go there like Sunday morning. So you
wake up, you have your coffee, your croissant
or whatever you have for breakfast, and then
then you go to bed. And you go back and you go
home like 10 11pm, you know, from like 99 or
10am. So you party enough and then on Monday,
you can go to work. That is fascinating. The
idea of waking up and going to a club is like,
I guess you really need to like clubs to do that.
Yeah. And you know, the podcast, tell me about
the podcast. When did you get started with it?
So I started the podcast, I think it was two
years ago, but I wasn't the most consistent in
publishing the podcast I did. So I didn't do
that. Ongoingly, I did it in season. So every
year is a season. So I got season one, then I
got season two. And now I'm releasing, I think
like in a couple of weeks, a season three. So
I usually find for each season about 10 guests.
you know, and I deep dive with them on a certain
topic, right? So the first year was around crypto
a lot and blockchain and NFTs. The second year
was more around like building a startup because
of course I was building my startup. So like
it was selfish enough and building products in
general. And then this year instead is much more
about AI. So interviewing different people that
look at AI from a different angle. Interesting.
And what do you do with AI at the moment? What?
Sorry. What are you doing with AI at the moment?
Like you're on your own business as well with
AI, right? Right now? Yeah, right now I'm mainly
consulting businesses. I'm still licking my wins
from, you know, the start of the server. Yeah,
I mean, it happened. It happened in November.
So it's like, it's like quite like we shut everything
down in November. And it was like, yeah, a bit
painful for me. So I'm still on the fences if
I want to do this again or not. Because now I
know, before I didn't know, now I know. I'm still
on the fences about that, if I want to do that
or not. And in the meantime, I'm consulting businesses
regarding how to apply AI to their business and
also creating content online. So mainly TikTok
and Instagram. What got you started with the
podcast? What was the core idea behind it? The
core idea was communicating technology. to the
larger audience. Because I remember when I first
started working in tech, it was discovering an
entire universe. I felt like Alice in Wonderland,
but in tech, basically. The tech was the rabbit
hole. And I found so fascinating this word, and
I know the software, it's the power that will
change the world. If you look at the major societal
shifts that we have. had in the last 30 years.
It's all because of software, basically, and
a bit of hardware, of course, if you look at
the iPhone, but the iPhone at the same time unlocked
the App Store. That's where the magic really
started to happen and social media and everything.
I wanted to communicate the inner workings of
this word to people that are external to it.
And yeah, that's why I decided to start that
on the podcast. Also starting a podcast allows
you access. That's the selfish reason allows
you access to people that you wouldn't normally
have access to, like who will grant you one hour
of their time or 30 minutes. And you can ask
them whatever question you want. That is very
true, actually. Right. Well, what is your, like,
what did you start? What is your experience?
Um, so it's, it's, um, Kind of similar, but slightly
different. So it's a good way of putting things.
I saw a job ad online for a podcast, and this
was with my business partner, Harry. He said,
we're looking for a podcast host. And his original
idea was to have a podcast to promote his digital
marketing company. And I told him, well, that
doesn't really work that well, because then you
can't really interview people. expect to get
them as clients. Let's just interview interesting
people and then see how we go. And it is called
Innovation Conversation. And the idea was just
to talk with a lot of innovators. We kind of
got started. We interviewed a lot of people in
the beginning, really doing very cool, I guess,
new things. Then Harry kind of dropped off around
episode 20 or so. And I continue now episode
70 something 75 or 76. And it's still the same
thing, which is I interview entrepreneurs, I
interview investors, I interview people in the
ecosystem that can help out either startups launching
out or just investors looking for new ideas and
new opportunities. So yeah. So you run 60, 65
or 75 episodes? 75. 75. This week, I think it
was 76. So next week will be 77. And yours will
probably be 82 or something like that. Oh my
God. Okay. So what do you find about podcasting
that keeps you going? Because to record 80 plus
podcasts, you must find something in it. What
is it that you find in it? And what is the most
difficult thing about running a podcast for you?
A good question. I think the best thing is this,
you get a chance, just like you said, to interview
a bunch of people who you might not normally
have access to. And that opens up the way you
think and that opens up your world, which is
pretty cool. And then secondly, for me, it's
also about, I guess, broadening my horizons,
if that makes sense. Because if I'm interviewing
someone who's done something completely different
or who has been very successful at business,
I then realize actually... it's not that hard
or there's I can do this as well myself so it
kind of helps with my confidence and I think
at the same time obviously it also helps the
audience right so the audience gets a lot of
insights from very successful people what works
what doesn't work what they should actually pick
up on tips and tricks and stuff like that yeah
so it's quite it's quite insightful Yeah. And
what is the most challenging? I mean, I mean,
you got to have some selfish reason. I don't
believe that people that just say, oh, I'm doing
this, you know, just to educate people or for
the good of my art. Like you can do that for
like one, two, three, four episodes, but like
at one point things get tough. Like if your motivation
is just external and there is nothing internal
for you, it's difficult to keep it up. I think
it is. And also. It takes a lot of work and there's
a lot of weeks where for example i've had weeks
in the past where i interview six people and
by the six person interviewing the week you're
drained you don't have any more questions to
ask anyone right but then you also realize okay
i've interviewed six people which means i now
open up a lot of opportunities and i can then
spend the next couple of weeks just you know
exploring these opportunities. So it's actually
quite helpful and quite beneficial for me at
least. And oddly enough, also helps with confidence
because now in front of the camera, you learn
how to speak with the camera a little bit better.
You're trying to fix like the way you speak.
Am I pronouncing the words correctly? Stuff like
that. And yeah, for me, I think it's quite a
useful tool. And I think having the ability to
tell people launching a business, it's not that
hard. Just get started. Look out for these things,
but it's not that hard. That also adds a lot
of value. Yeah. I think podcasting taught me
not to speak very well, as you can see, but it
taught me how to listen well. When you're talking
to someone, like day -to -day life normally,
you're also thinking about, okay, what am I going
to say next? You're branching out a little bit.
Instead of when you're interviewing someone for
the podcast, You have to be a hundred percent
zoom in on them, like full attention. You have
to pick up on what they say to build upon the
conversation. And also you need to learn, uh,
like what clicks with your user. So like if the
gas say something that you think can click with
your user, like then you have to double click
on that. And to do that, you have to pay a hundred
percent attention. And for me that I have ADHD,
like that was immensely. helpful. Yeah, I found
something quite interesting. We were talking
before this, just for the audience and knowledge.
And you're asking is there a set structure for
the podcast? And I said, I never keep a set structure.
So what I normally do just to keep the conversation
flowing is I do my research on my guests, then
I pick up on a couple of keywords and I want
to interview them on and then I ask questions
around those keywords, but I let the conversation
flow. So we're talking about how you got started,
your product manager, then you move over to your
own startup, lessons, failures, then you move
over to being a podcast host. And now you're
also doing consulting jobs. So it kind of just
flows where if I was just to ask very rigid questions
around those things, it would not flow. It would
sound like a Gestapo questionnaire. And we will
never find out you managed to get into the business
club in Berlin. So it's like, you know what?
Tips on how to get into Berghain for non -Berliners.
Number one, wear black. I've heard that one.
Yes. But then you need like put some piercings
in your face. I mean, how does that work? I mean,
I don't have piercings in my face and I don't
put fake one, but it's like more of the attitude.
Like, okay, you need to be dressed like, you
know, like a bit of Berlin style, like black,
like the stereotype is true. Like, so if you
Google like Berlin style, like you'll find Pinterest
boards and stuff like that. But it's more like
the attitude. So I will advise people not to
come to Berlin. just to enter the club, spend
a few days in Berlin first, pick up what the
locals feel like, pick up the vibes and try to
replicate the vibe. Alternatively, find people
that live in Berlin, make friends with them,
and then try to imitate them and get in with
them. That's easier. Interesting, okay. I would
probably fail at the first one because I don't
think I have all black clothes ever. So that
might be a struggle for me. Yeah, you can think
of it like wearing a costume if you want, like
Halloween or something. Interesting. Actually,
I was just curious, how is the startup scene
in Berlin? Because I heard it's quite active.
It is quite active. A lot of people come to Berlin
to try to build their own startup, especially
after Brexit. I think that before London was
the place to be before Brexit. Now it's a bit
more difficult to go to London to do that from
Europe. And so people just started, you know,
like... There is a lot of ecosystem, a lot of
events centered around startup. When I opened
my phone, I had three, four, five startup events
every single day basically to go to. And then
it's like, which one do I go to? Right? And mostly
sometimes in very cool places, like very alternative,
you know, there are startup accelerators, help
from the government. There is this called Startup
Stipendium, especially in Berlin. There is like
a Berliner Startup Stipendium. So you can, if
you win this Stipendium, you can work on your
startup for a year. So like you basically get
a salary for a year. Yeah. That's pretty good.
Yeah. I mean, there is a lot that they try to
do to help startups, you know, take off. I mean,
you have to win it. You have to win the, you
know, like it's not that they just give it to
you if you ask it. You have to, you know, do
have an affiliation. There are several different
institutes that are affiliated to with the Berliner
Startup Stipendium. And if you manage to get
into one, then you can work on your startup with
like some peace of mind. Yeah, that's great.
How is it in London? Is there like an equivalent
of Berlin Startups Dependium or something like
that? It's not a citywide. So there's a lot of
accelerators that you can apply for. Obviously,
if you apply for those accelerators, you get
a monthly fee and you can get some money to get
launched, get started. But I don't think there's
like something so generic, which is like everyone
applies to the same program. It's actually quite
diverse. There's different programs you can apply.
Some are from the government. Others are from
the council, the London mayor. Others are even
from the Prince Trust, for example, which is
something that got started by now King Charles
when he was a prince. That's why it's called
the Prince Trust. And the idea is to actually
help young people launch their business and multiple
other things. So, yeah, there's quite a lot of
support, I guess, if you go and look for it.
Also, I think the cost of launching a business
is very, very low in the UK. So, you know, setting
up your own company costs about 50 pounds, which
I know is a big difference with Germany. And
then with that, you then become a company director.
You can open a bank account. You can start trading
overnight if you desire. That makes it easier
in terms of the legal element of things. And
then they have something called the SEIS program,
which helps a lot to get some investors on board.
So for anyone from not from London listening
to this have have a read on this because it's
actually quite impactful. And that's one of the
main things that investors look for is like,
are you registered for the SIS scheme? If so,
let's invest with you because they know they're
somewhat protected. So that makes a big difference.
Okay. Just to clarify, the Berlin Startup, Stipendium
is not the only thing. We have many more programs.
There are both regional and nationwide, but just
like in Berlin, people apply to that because
it's very well -founded and there are a lot of
institutions that are affiliated with the program.
Um, so they provide not only a stipendium, but
they provide like a working space and stuff like
that. Today, you know, it's, it's in Berlin.
So that's why it's very popular. But yeah, I
feel like how are our costs for running businesses?
Uh, it's much higher. Much higher. Yeah. Like
you, you can't open, uh, like a startup, uh,
with 50 pounds or 50 or like 60, 50 euros in,
in Germany. I mean, you can, there is like, uh,
like, uh, like. The same, you know, like, but
no one will take you seriously and no one will
invest in your company. No VC will invest in
our UK. Basically you need to have a game bear,
which is a limited liability company. And that's
like 20 K to invest, you know? Yeah. I mean,
otherwise like no VC will even look at you in
the face, basically. Like, oh, you don't believe
that you don't believe in your startup enough
to invest that amount of money. Interesting.
Yeah, it's different. VCs in Germany are a bit
more conservative in that regard, a bit more
traditional. So they want to feel a bit more
secure before investing. Makes sense. I guess
it makes sense. But then it also creates a barrier
to entry, doesn't it? Because a lot of startups
were actually founded by people with not a lot
of money. And that's probably one of the reasons
you want to launch a business is because you
want to make a lot of money. So asking for 20K
just to get started might not be the easiest
thing. I don't know. Maybe it proves a point,
like it proves that you're at least able to get
20K, right? Yeah. I mean, you don't have to get
K immediately. I think you can do with half of
them at the beginning just to incorporate, but
you are liable for 20K. Yes. Well, that's quite
a lot of money. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds interesting
what you know, I was like asking this question,
you know when you were having all these down
moments and stuff like that What kept you motivated?
What did you say to yourself to bring you back
into you know into your game into your passionate
self? I guess That's a good question that's a
good question because I can think of several
answer but I'm trying to like isolate one, you
know, I guess like a sort of internal optimism
that everything will go well in the end. Even
if it's not what I envision, even if it doesn't
look like what I want right now, everything will
sort itself out. I always believe that I will
end up on my feet no matter what. I have this
sort of inner conviction. Like a cat. It's like
a cat. Yeah, like even if it happens like at
the very last possible second, but it will happen.
And I always have like this conviction, you know?
So like, I think like having this sort of internal
optimism kind of keeps you going. You know, even
in the toughest moments, that's why I say that
like beliefs, like the beliefs that you have
are super important when you're trying to build
a startup of it. Because if you think that in
the end, you'll always be okay, no matter the
setbacks, you will be. And even like my startup
didn't go well, failed. The way I see it is that
it failed because I needed to learn lessons to
build my next startup. That's one point. And
if I look at my life since then, actually, my
life has quite improved. I think that's the thing
most people don't realize. You don't need to
make it every time. You need to make it once.
Yeah, exactly. And then everything else you fail,
that's okay, because that's a learning curve.
At least you've learned something. Obviously,
don't do the same mistake twice. But as long
as you keep on learning, it will get to the point
where you're actually going to be successful.
And there's tons of cases of people who only
managed to do so very late in life. I'm going
to say the classical ones, because I think everyone
will recognize them. But look at Colonel Sanders
from KFC will look at Ray Kroc from McDonald's.
It's the same thing. They got in very late at
life. They failed multiple times before, and
then all of a sudden they hit the nail on the
head. Okay, this is exactly what needed to be
successful. And it took off. So yeah, you never
know. And actually, I think for a minute as failure,
you fail when you stop learning and reinventing
yourself, I feel. Otherwise, anything else is
an experiment gone south, basically. or a lesson
that you needed to learn. Like that's my preferred
lenses. This is a lesson that I needed to learn.
And like if I fail to learn from that lesson,
that's a fail. So that's how I see it. And like,
if you see it, things like that, if you see life
as a series of experiment, you know, that might
go well, might go another way that you originally
thought, but you learned from that, that's really
helpful. And keep showing up. I think that's
the most important thing. Keep showing up. There's
good days, bad days. You keep on showing up and
eventually you make it. It's like going to the
gym. You're going to have really good gym sessions
and really bad gym sessions. But when you have
a bad gym session, which happens, you still showed
up and that counts more than anything else. So
you might not do, I don't know, 10 pull -ups.
You're going to do one, but you still been to
the gym and that makes a huge difference. When
you start adding all those things together, you're
good to go. What keeps you going instead? That
was my personal answer, but what is yours? I
am stubborn as a mule. That helps too. That helps.
I just think that I still have a lot of stuff
to do and because I have a lot of stuff to do,
I keep on doing it. So when things don't go my
way, I said, no, no, no, screw this. I'm going
to continue doing this or continue doing whatever
I feel like doing because I am stubborn as a
mule. I'm going to prove people that I can do
it. Yeah, that's kind of keeps me motivated and
keeps on pushing forward. And throughout my many
failures in life, because I had many, like I
guess most people, I kept on pushing. I never
stopped because like, why would you stop? You
just failed. So surely there's some reward coming
your way in some way. So you keep on pushing.
And it normally happens, you know, it turns out.
OK, so. Yeah. And if you push like, OK, question
for you. OK, we're reversing roles now. No, it's
like it's like a conversation. Come on. It is
a conversation. But I'm curious because I struggle
a bit with this. That's why I'm going to ask
you. You say you're stubborn as a mule. But is
there a point when you say this is enough? I'm
being too stubborn about this, just to prove
a point, I need to move forward. Or do you just
keep pushing? And if so, how do you realize,
if you're not pushing, how do you realize when
it's time to stop? Or I guess the better question
is what makes you realize that you need to stop
and focus on something else? So it starts before
that. So the way I see things is... You should
always ask enough questions and try to always
incorporate feedback from the people around you
so that you're not literally stubborn as a mule.
That's okay because you're getting some feedback,
you're learning, you're navigating. So saying
that the way forward is always the best way might
not be correct. And as long as you get feedback,
as long as you're open to feedback, you will
find the way, even though it might be very curvy,
to get to your goals. So you need to be flexible
in that regard. What I mean by being stubborn
as a mule is that if people say you can't do
that, And then you ask why, because I said, no,
then I'm like, that's not going to happen. So
if I set my mind on to achieve something, I will
find a way of achieving that something. And that's
what I mean. You need to be stubborn as a mule
in the sense that you need to be able to say,
okay, this is what I'm setting out to achieve.
How? I'm super flexible. There's a good saying
that I think it was Bruce Lee kept on saying,
be like water. And water is that wonderful thing
that's very strong and always finds a way. And
it's the same thing with your goals and your
ambitions. You're very strong. You need to find
a way. It doesn't matter where you're gonna go,
but you still manage to find a way. So that's
kind of my philosophy. I feel like if I look
at the startup success, most people think it's
like instant success, but actually most of the
time it's people struggling for years to find
product market fit and continually pivoting and
people telling them that they were crazy to keep
pushing, literally crazy. I think that to succeed,
you need to be delusional a little. I know that
a lot, right? Like you need to be so like convinced,
you know, even if no one else sees it, you see
it, you know, and just push. I had a lot of millionaires,
probably billionaires here on this show. And
all of them have said the same thing. You need
to be delusional. You need to be the guy that
keeps on pushing or the guy or the girl keeps
on pushing. When everyone says, why don't you
stop? Why don't you go find a nice stable job?
Like, no, no, no, because this is what I want
to do. And people are willing to take their risk
and take that suffering, which is I will now
live in uncertainty for X amount of time until
I achieve what I set out to achieve. And not
everyone has that. And so, yeah, I guess you're
born with it, maybe. Or you become an entrepreneur
due to necessity. You know, if you don't have
any food on the table, you find a way of getting
food on the table. So, yeah, it's one of those
things. Necessity is something that always pushes
you forward. Yeah the uncertainty it's something
just if everyone is like listening and considering
oh should i do this or not like like it's super
rewarding. But on the other hand the uncertainty
like me i never did something on my own before
like two years ago and like i'm in my thirties
i'm not twenty and i'm a woman so interior like
my you know. Uh, like, uh, you know, most of
my friends are like family and children and instead
I decide to, you know, like, yeah, let's, you
know, dump everything that I was doing, like,
uh, change city. Now I'm going to travel the
world, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, Right? Because it's like everything
that you learn and the experience and who you
become as a person as a result of that, but you
need to be able to learn to manage that. How
do you like, and that is the question to you,
how do you learn to manage the uncertainty? How
do you learn to manage the uncertainty? That's
a good question. I mean, I found that the only
thing having gone through bad moments in my life,
I found that the only thing that really sticks
through is myself. And of course, a selected
group of friends and family and everything else
is temporary. So there's really not any certainty
in life. You might think you have a great job
and then next day it's gone. What happened to
my great job? That was I was set for life. No,
you're not. Doesn't work like that. So I rather
be in control of my decisions and in control
of my own uncertainty and say, you know, I choose
to be uncertain, but I also choose to reap the
rewards of that uncertainty instead of saying
I'm going to stay here and everything is completely
fine until a storm comes. I don't know. If I'm
already at sea learning how to navigate the storms,
if there's a storm, I'm much better equipped
to navigate it than if I just sit in my little
corner of, I guess, let's use the same example.
If I sit in my little boat hoping there's never
any storm, I'm going to sink. If I'm out at sea
and deal with any storm that might come my way,
I'll manage to find the correct way. So it's
a bit of a gamble. It's a bit risky, but I just
find it to work. I feel like what you're saying,
like this quality. It's probably one of the most
important quality that people can cultivate moving
forward. If it's true that we're going into a
future where increasingly AI can take over more
tasks, can automate things a bit more, I'm certain
we will get there, but I'm very skeptical on
the timeframe. I think that sometimes those AI
companies tend to... accelerate, you know, like
over promise a little, but I'm sure that we will
get there. If it's not like in two or three years,
it's going to be like maybe in 10 years, right?
But it's like still a reasonably, you know, short
timeframe. So I feel like a disability for people,
you know, to learn to cultivate, like living
with uncertainty and what you can do to, you
know, like secure your future. It's something
that like, Maybe it's like just a thought that
she will start being there. I feel there's also
I think that with the whole AI thing what's bound
to happen is We are bound to have to think a
lot more than we do right now because right now
we consume a lot of information Whereas in with
it with AI we now have some someone who is able
to process that information and give us results
Now what we do with it comes out to our thinking
abilities so I can ask a series of questions
on CHPT or whatever platform I decide to use.
And what I choose to do with that information
is really what's important, not so much with
the information I have. So being able to think
on your own, thinking on your own two feet, is
the key to being successful. At least that's
what I think in this AI element. Because before
you live in a society where people were told
what to do, you get your job, someone tells you
what to do. Okay, cool. and you do it because
that's the skill set, that's the very limited
skill set you have. And then you have a leader
on top of you that looks okay, this person is
producing this information, the other person
is putting that information and putting it all
together. Let's bring a result. Whereas in now,
because everyone has access to the same ability
to produce stuff, it's more, okay, what do I
do with this? So you need to think a lot more,
but that's actually a good thing. It's not a
bad thing. And maybe they'll stop us becoming
consumers, but actually creators of something.
And yeah, that could be quite an interesting
future. Not for everyone, I know, but for the
ones who choose to embrace that, that's going
to be fascinating, isn't it? Yeah, I believe
so as well. I find so fascinating that you actually
say that AI is going to push us to think more
instead of less. That's actually the correct
use of AI. I feel like people sometimes misunderstand
the inner workings of AI and that AI is like
work. Like an LLM is like a probabilistic system,
right? It works in probability. That means that
there is a chance that it might hallucinate,
that it might not give you the correct answer.
And if you take everything at face value, you
know, like you might end up doing mistakes in
your work, in whatever you do. So you really
want to actually do hon. on this critical thinking,
you know, that you have. And actually, if you
inject your own taste, your own personality into
your prompt, for example, you can get so much
more results than compared to being generic.
So yeah, I actually agree 100 % with what you're
saying. I also know that this is not going to
be for everyone. Like some people are probably
going to feel very overwhelmed, you know, with
the pace of technology and what's happening.
But if you, if it's not too late to, you know,
get on top of it right now and really start.
It's not, but it comes down to, you know, when
I was in school, I remember that the best student
was not the one who was able to think the hardest.
The best student was the one who was able to
memorize the hardest and then put it all in an
exam and that's it, call it quits. And that for
me is just the wrong model because that doesn't
reflect in the working place at all. So if you
go to a job and you say, I'm able to memorize
the whole manual. Oh, good for you. But can you
actually process any information and think about
it? Oh, I can't. OK, let's bring in an external
consultant who can think on top of just having
information. And with AI, it's the same thing.
We now have information and we have something
that is able to process information. But we now
need to see, what am I actually going to put
this on? How am I actually going to make this
impactful in my organization, in my lifestyle?
All that. Good example, if you want to diet and
exercise, go to Chetchi PT. There's like 10 ,000
diets you can follow. Which one are you going
to follow? You need to be able to think, okay,
this is actually the one I like the most and
better suited for me because then we have that
ability. You start asking the right questions,
getting the relevant information and you can
act upon it. But yeah, it's exciting new world
out there, I think. Yeah, actually, you know,
the most exciting use case for me for AI, well,
one of, is actually this ability to train your
own critical thinking. Because of the nature,
like this is exactly working with and not against
the nature of an LLM, of a large language model,
right? I talked before that they are probabilistic
systems. So they are going to come up, if you
ask it for alternatives, they are going to come
up with a bunch of alternatives, pros and cons
that you might not have considered. Like this
is something that I love to do. For example,
when I interview a guest or when I'm thinking
about a topic and I want to do maybe a video
about it, I go to. I usually go through several
different models because they have sort of different
training. So a little bit of a different perspective.
And I ask it basically to give me like a list
of 10 unconventional questions for this topic.
You know, sometimes I get questions that I never
even like they were not even on my radar. Like
I did not even conceive of them. And because
I see that, then I start to think about it. So
it's actually training me to first ask better
questions and second to think more deeply, like
on certain topics. So this is actually a fantastic
use case for AI. It is. And the question gets
followed up by another question and another question
and another question. And if you keep on pursuing
this, you'll find what you actually need to do
and the truth of the matter. And I do that with
so many things. Absolutely crazy. And yeah, just
works super well for me, I think. I need to find
a replacement word for super because I use it
a lot. That's a whole different thing. I mean,
for you coming in from Germany, probably, yeah,
super all the time. But here in the UK, I think
people always look at me funny. Why does it keep
on saying super? Is it Superman? What's the connection
here? So yeah, I need to stop with the whole
super thing. Sarah, if people want to find you
online, what's the best way of doing so? So they
can find me on my YouTube channel, which is called
Polyweb, which is the same of my podcast. Stay
tuned for season three, which comes out in a
few weeks. And then they can find me in my social
media channels. So I'm on TikTok and on Instagram
at Sarah in wonder tech. Yeah, I told you that
I felt when I first landed my first job at Zalando
and I started to work in tech, I felt like Alice
in Wonderland. So that's why Sarah in WonderTech
and of course on LinkedIn with my full name,
Sarahlandi Tortoli. Sorry. Thank you so much
for your time. It's been a pleasure having you
here. Thank you, Ricardo. It was a pleasure talking
to you as well. The podcast is also sponsored
by Notion .so. Notion is offering six months
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