WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.859 Welcome to the Innovation Conversation, a podcast 00:00:02.859 --> 00:00:05.419 about innovators, both in business and real life. 00:00:05.879 --> 00:00:08.380 Hosted by myself, Ricardo Rescual and Harry McCona. 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:11.699 This podcast is also sponsored by ODEV Tech. 00:00:12.439 --> 00:00:14.640 ODEV Tech is your premier software development 00:00:14.640 --> 00:00:18.019 partner. Make sure you check them out at odev 00:00:18.019 --> 00:00:22.399 .tech. The podcast is also sponsored by Notion 00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:25.359 .so. Notion is offering six months for free for 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:27.820 new users. Make sure you check out our website, 00:00:28.039 --> 00:00:30.539 the storeupevents .co .uk to read in the software. 00:00:30.780 --> 00:00:33.700 Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Innovation 00:00:33.700 --> 00:00:36.759 Conversation. Today we are joined by Sara Landi 00:00:36.759 --> 00:00:39.479 Tortoli. Sara, welcome to the podcast. Hi, Ricardo. 00:00:39.619 --> 00:00:41.740 Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, it's a 00:00:41.740 --> 00:00:43.679 pleasure. Sara, would you like to introduce yourself 00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:45.899 to the audience, please? Like I just told Ricardo, 00:00:46.159 --> 00:00:50.469 I really suck at this question. That's the, like, 00:00:50.909 --> 00:00:53.329 that's the toughest question for me, but I guess 00:00:53.329 --> 00:00:56.270 that, yeah. My name is Sara Landitortoli. I am 00:00:56.270 --> 00:01:00.350 a product manager who happened to work in AI 00:01:00.350 --> 00:01:03.810 and machine learning for the past seven years. 00:01:04.109 --> 00:01:07.329 Now, I guess I'm what you will call a solopreneur. 00:01:07.750 --> 00:01:10.530 So I try to build my own startup. Maybe we can 00:01:10.530 --> 00:01:13.969 touch upon that. I consult businesses on AI implementation, 00:01:13.969 --> 00:01:17.090 and I am also a content creator. So I have my 00:01:17.090 --> 00:01:20.879 own podcast. which is called Poliwab. And I also 00:01:20.879 --> 00:01:24.620 have my own TikTok, Instagram, and of course, 00:01:24.700 --> 00:01:26.780 LinkedIn. So you do quite a lot, keep yourself 00:01:26.780 --> 00:01:29.540 really busy. And how, you know, moving from a 00:01:29.540 --> 00:01:31.980 product manager, product owner to actually launching 00:01:31.980 --> 00:01:34.280 your own business, how was that journey like? 00:01:34.700 --> 00:01:37.920 What prompted you to change? A burnout. So apparently, 00:01:37.959 --> 00:01:42.049 I'm only able to change through pain. Not through 00:01:42.049 --> 00:01:46.930 nice incentives. So I had a burnout, but I also 00:01:46.930 --> 00:01:49.129 didn't know I was burnout. I only realized it 00:01:49.129 --> 00:01:52.109 when I took, you know, I had a lot of vacations 00:01:52.109 --> 00:01:54.450 to take because I never took vacation. And then 00:01:54.450 --> 00:01:57.849 I realized that, yeah, there is something wrong 00:01:57.849 --> 00:02:01.290 with me. I was also not performing as well as 00:02:01.290 --> 00:02:04.950 I should have. in the last two or three months 00:02:04.950 --> 00:02:08.409 in my job, like I physically couldn't. And so 00:02:08.409 --> 00:02:11.430 I took a year off. Like it didn't start out like 00:02:11.430 --> 00:02:13.569 that. It started out like, okay, I'm just going 00:02:13.569 --> 00:02:16.050 to take like a few months, you know, and then, 00:02:16.050 --> 00:02:19.409 you know, apply again to a job. That didn't quite 00:02:19.409 --> 00:02:22.409 work out like that because with time and a lot 00:02:22.409 --> 00:02:26.990 of, you know, more things suddenly, sorry. I'm 00:02:26.990 --> 00:02:29.289 going to say that again. With a lot of time off, 00:02:29.370 --> 00:02:32.330 I realized that I couldn't possibly go back to 00:02:32.330 --> 00:02:35.689 a full -time job. And so I started to, you know, 00:02:35.750 --> 00:02:38.349 like, okay, what's left? If I don't have a full 00:02:38.349 --> 00:02:42.330 -time job, how do I make money? And what's calling 00:02:42.330 --> 00:02:46.129 me? And I realized that I really wanted to do 00:02:46.129 --> 00:02:48.330 my own thing. And I thought, oh my God, since 00:02:48.330 --> 00:02:51.490 I'm a product manager, doing my own startup is 00:02:51.490 --> 00:02:53.349 going to be so much easier. I mean, I already 00:02:53.349 --> 00:02:56.189 know how to build products. No, it's completely 00:02:56.189 --> 00:03:00.270 different. Like, it's not the same thing at all. 00:03:00.490 --> 00:03:04.669 Yeah, sure, it helps. In some ways. But in other 00:03:04.669 --> 00:03:09.469 ways, it's, it's, it's not helpful. It's actually 00:03:09.469 --> 00:03:13.949 harmful. In some other ways. So what was like 00:03:13.949 --> 00:03:15.750 the the main lessons you learned on that journey? 00:03:16.169 --> 00:03:17.849 Because I imagine it must have been like, like 00:03:17.849 --> 00:03:19.550 you just said, quite a big chunk, like, okay, 00:03:19.770 --> 00:03:21.409 I actually need to do a lot more stuff than that 00:03:21.409 --> 00:03:24.419 I was hoping to do. In transitioning from a product 00:03:24.419 --> 00:03:29.539 manager role to an entrepreneur, have a distribution. 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:32.340 That's the biggest lesson that I learned. If 00:03:32.340 --> 00:03:35.039 you want to launch something today, what you 00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:37.280 really, really need to have is distribution. 00:03:37.580 --> 00:03:39.360 This is the number one lesson that I learned. 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:43.400 You need to have a go -to -market that is hands 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:46.620 -on, nailed down. That's easier if you already 00:03:46.620 --> 00:03:49.360 have a distribution channel, because the greatest 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:52.039 product, if your go -to -market sucks, is never 00:03:52.039 --> 00:03:56.439 going to reach the hands of your user. So that's 00:03:56.439 --> 00:03:58.740 one of the things that I figure out. The other 00:03:58.740 --> 00:04:01.199 thing that I figure out is that the people that 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:03.879 you build it with, so the people that are your 00:04:03.879 --> 00:04:06.340 co -founders and you share your journey with, 00:04:06.900 --> 00:04:12.419 pick them carefully. and be very aware of your 00:04:12.419 --> 00:04:15.620 own limitations and your weak point, because 00:04:15.620 --> 00:04:17.439 the minute that you start building something, 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:20.100 they are going to show up and stare at your face 00:04:20.100 --> 00:04:25.540 constantly. All your limitations in terms of 00:04:25.540 --> 00:04:29.620 not just skills, but also belief. If you don't 00:04:29.620 --> 00:04:33.000 believe you can do something fully and just fake 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:34.920 it until you make it, I found out that fake it 00:04:34.920 --> 00:04:37.100 until you make it doesn't really work. That's 00:04:37.100 --> 00:04:39.379 another lesson. You actually have to believe 00:04:39.379 --> 00:04:44.500 it. So that was my three short and sweet, not 00:04:44.500 --> 00:04:48.180 so short, but three sweet learnings from this 00:04:48.180 --> 00:04:50.459 entire experience. You're also an entrepreneur, 00:04:50.699 --> 00:04:54.220 by the way. So what would you say if you have 00:04:54.220 --> 00:04:57.879 to pick three biggest learnings? I think that 00:04:57.879 --> 00:04:59.860 at this stage, we're probably best off just revealing 00:04:59.860 --> 00:05:01.839 that you also have a podcast. So you ask a lot 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:03.800 of questions on a regular basis. Yeah, sorry, 00:05:03.899 --> 00:05:07.040 like, I'm very bad at being like, interviewed, 00:05:07.079 --> 00:05:09.959 I feel much more comfortable asking questions. 00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:13.980 So like, like, listener will forgive me if sometimes 00:05:13.980 --> 00:05:18.199 questions back to Ricardo. No, I think I think 00:05:18.199 --> 00:05:19.740 you actually touched upon a couple of points 00:05:19.740 --> 00:05:22.500 that I find to be quite interesting. The first 00:05:22.500 --> 00:05:25.389 one is you mentioned you kind of Like your limitations 00:05:25.389 --> 00:05:28.290 are going to get back to you very quickly. And 00:05:28.290 --> 00:05:31.230 I find that that happens every day. However, 00:05:31.750 --> 00:05:33.769 we have so many tools at our disposal nowadays. 00:05:33.990 --> 00:05:35.509 I mean, I use a lot of AI. I think most people 00:05:35.509 --> 00:05:38.189 use a lot of AI nowadays, which really does help 00:05:38.189 --> 00:05:41.069 to understand things. Things that probably before 00:05:41.069 --> 00:05:44.610 ChatGPT, I would take ages to find out what they 00:05:44.610 --> 00:05:46.610 actually mean, what they actually do. Nowadays, 00:05:46.730 --> 00:05:48.990 I just say, hey, what exactly does this mean? 00:05:48.990 --> 00:05:50.930 Explain it to me. And then I have a full explanation. 00:05:50.990 --> 00:05:54.100 So I'm able to process information. and act upon 00:05:54.100 --> 00:05:56.339 information a lot quicker. And that is super 00:05:56.339 --> 00:05:58.699 impactful. Even though I might not know the right 00:05:58.699 --> 00:06:00.279 answers, I know where to get them. I know how 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:02.959 to act upon them. So that makes a big difference. 00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:04.899 And then you mentioned picking co -founders. 00:06:04.920 --> 00:06:08.079 I think that's probably one of the best or the 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:09.939 hardest things you need to do, which is how I'm 00:06:09.939 --> 00:06:12.019 going to pick the right person. And also what 00:06:12.019 --> 00:06:15.379 seems right in one month might not seem right 00:06:15.379 --> 00:06:20.439 six months on the line. So having that flexibility. 00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:22.860 to be able to work with someone that's really, 00:06:22.860 --> 00:06:25.800 really important. It's also quite hard. And I 00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:27.699 highly recommend always getting like a founders 00:06:27.699 --> 00:06:30.000 agreement in place. So what do you do when things 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:32.379 go bad? And then that all needs to be written 00:06:32.379 --> 00:06:34.399 down. And it needs to be written down when it's 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:36.319 everyone's like at peace and everyone's super 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:38.240 happy with each other. Because then you make 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:39.980 something that's fair. Because if you're trying 00:06:39.980 --> 00:06:43.000 to negotiate that. Pass that stage it's not gonna 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:45.399 be fair to anyone so yeah was it helpful for 00:06:45.399 --> 00:06:47.819 you to have negotiated before hand i've learned 00:06:47.819 --> 00:06:50.600 the lesson hard way yes i had to learn the lesson 00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:52.660 the hard way but yeah i think i think that's 00:06:52.660 --> 00:06:54.819 probably one of the biggest takings for me is 00:06:54.819 --> 00:06:57.399 like get a founders agreement in place i think 00:06:57.399 --> 00:06:58.879 it's probably something if you want to get married 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:01.300 just kept like a prenup because then when things 00:07:01.300 --> 00:07:04.430 go bad they're really they go bad so yeah. Yeah, 00:07:04.430 --> 00:07:06.889 because like really your co -founders, you spend 00:07:06.889 --> 00:07:10.430 more time with them than any family member. Like 00:07:10.430 --> 00:07:12.689 if you're married, you know, with kids, like 00:07:12.689 --> 00:07:14.449 you're going to spend more time with your co 00:07:14.449 --> 00:07:17.129 -founders and your family, especially if you're 00:07:17.129 --> 00:07:20.189 trying to build a startup, which when it's early 00:07:20.189 --> 00:07:23.290 stage, it's super time consuming. Like you live 00:07:23.290 --> 00:07:28.910 and breathe for that. And like if you're not 00:07:28.910 --> 00:07:33.629 a hundred percent strong in your co -founder's 00:07:33.629 --> 00:07:36.949 relationship, that's going to come back to haunt 00:07:36.949 --> 00:07:40.670 you. It's all sort of thing. The vision that 00:07:40.670 --> 00:07:42.709 you have for the company needs to be aligned. 00:07:42.970 --> 00:07:45.610 You both need to want the same thing. You both 00:07:45.610 --> 00:07:49.209 need to share what's this thing going to be like 00:07:49.209 --> 00:07:52.370 in the end, even though you might not fully agree 00:07:52.370 --> 00:07:54.610 how to get there at every single point. That's 00:07:54.610 --> 00:07:57.060 okay, but as long as you have... the same vision 00:07:57.060 --> 00:07:59.959 at the end. That's really, really helpful. And 00:07:59.959 --> 00:08:01.860 then like there is the day to day, the needy, 00:08:01.899 --> 00:08:05.759 greedy, like the working style and yeah, it's 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:08.399 a lot. I'm curious, sorry. How did you come up 00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:11.019 with the idea for your startup? I was doing a 00:08:11.019 --> 00:08:13.459 bit of personal experience and a bit because 00:08:13.459 --> 00:08:16.500 I was doing a lot of research and I saw the numbers 00:08:16.500 --> 00:08:19.360 and I was like, there is something here for context. 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:21.199 Like I'm just going to explain briefly what the 00:08:21.199 --> 00:08:24.139 startup was like. I was going to build an AI 00:08:24.139 --> 00:08:28.569 companion. That unlike normally companions that 00:08:28.569 --> 00:08:31.329 keep you keep you in the app talking, you know, 00:08:31.389 --> 00:08:34.710 just with a chatbot will match you with other 00:08:34.710 --> 00:08:38.169 people. Okay. Yeah. So like we had, we thought 00:08:38.169 --> 00:08:39.970 at the beginning friends, of course, we were 00:08:39.970 --> 00:08:42.570 aware that romantic relationships are much more 00:08:42.570 --> 00:08:45.049 of a driver for adoption, but at the beginning 00:08:45.049 --> 00:08:47.690 it was meant to, you know, to be like an AI companion 00:08:47.690 --> 00:08:50.710 that helps you find friends. And, and I came 00:08:50.710 --> 00:08:53.740 up with this idea because first. When I moved 00:08:53.740 --> 00:08:58.120 to Berlin, I experienced loneliness a lot. Berlin 00:08:58.120 --> 00:09:03.639 can be quite a tough city to leave. Sometimes 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:08.220 when I was alone by myself on Saturday nights 00:09:08.220 --> 00:09:15.179 without nothing to do, I felt so alone. That 00:09:15.179 --> 00:09:19.419 was seven years ago, right? If I ever had a chatbot 00:09:19.419 --> 00:09:22.580 seven years ago that I could talk to, On that 00:09:22.580 --> 00:09:26.259 Saturday night, I will have, you know, just to 00:09:26.259 --> 00:09:29.919 hear the voice of someone, because you can't 00:09:29.919 --> 00:09:31.759 call your friend on Saturday nights, like they're 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:33.940 out doing their own things, right? And you're 00:09:33.940 --> 00:09:37.519 not physically in the same nation, so it doesn't 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:39.980 really help. So that was one observation. And 00:09:39.980 --> 00:09:42.000 then I started doing research, and I saw the 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:45.080 numbers behind the AI companions. I saw the retention 00:09:45.080 --> 00:09:48.720 numbers. And it's crazy, the willingness to pay 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:52.610 for you from users. It's like crazy. There is 00:09:52.610 --> 00:09:56.950 really a loneliness epidemic and something about 00:09:56.950 --> 00:10:01.190 people wanting to really be able to confide into 00:10:01.190 --> 00:10:05.990 someone and not finding this in real life. And 00:10:05.990 --> 00:10:08.909 so we thought, okay, this is also going to be 00:10:08.909 --> 00:10:11.909 dangerous if more people rely on AI companions 00:10:11.909 --> 00:10:14.070 moving forward. We're not going to be able to 00:10:14.070 --> 00:10:17.539 talk with each other. So what if we What if we 00:10:17.539 --> 00:10:20.460 use an AI companion to actually help people getting 00:10:20.460 --> 00:10:24.620 closer? You know, so that was the idea. It's 00:10:24.620 --> 00:10:26.740 a very good idea and it's a big problem, isn't 00:10:26.740 --> 00:10:28.399 it? We keep on playing with our phones instead 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:31.740 of talking to people in real life. Yeah, I spent 00:10:31.740 --> 00:10:34.399 a lot of time doing research for this product 00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:38.580 and the people that I talked to, the things that 00:10:38.580 --> 00:10:42.200 I found countless hours on Reddit. I possibly 00:10:42.200 --> 00:10:44.960 read every Reddit thread that was out there. 00:10:45.039 --> 00:10:48.419 I even recorded a podcast episode that never 00:10:48.419 --> 00:10:53.480 went live because I interviewed five people that 00:10:53.480 --> 00:10:58.779 were daily AI companion users since years. Unfortunately, 00:10:59.039 --> 00:11:01.419 I couldn't release the podcast because I was 00:11:01.419 --> 00:11:04.159 denied permission and I didn't want to. like 00:11:04.159 --> 00:11:06.320 for the people to be uncomfortable. But I learned 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:10.220 so much about the human condition through the 00:11:10.220 --> 00:11:13.700 research I did to build the startup. And really, 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:17.259 like I am astonished, like both on the upside 00:11:17.259 --> 00:11:19.879 and the downsides. But let's go back a step here 00:11:19.879 --> 00:11:24.059 so we can tell our listeners. So you're in Italy 00:11:24.059 --> 00:11:25.820 and you moved to Berlin and you launched the 00:11:25.820 --> 00:11:30.440 startup in Berlin, right? Yeah, so I was in Italy. 00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:34.090 I got a job offer from Zalando. Zalando is one 00:11:34.090 --> 00:11:37.529 of the, probably the biggest fashion e -commerce 00:11:37.529 --> 00:11:40.850 in Europe. So got a job at Zalando and moved 00:11:40.850 --> 00:11:43.389 to Berlin because of that, because the headquarter 00:11:43.389 --> 00:11:46.769 of Zalando is Berlin. I became a product manager 00:11:46.769 --> 00:11:49.570 there while I was at Zalando. And then I, you 00:11:49.570 --> 00:11:52.909 know, I had other jobs, you know, and then, yeah, 00:11:53.049 --> 00:11:56.250 like basically that after, I think it was like 00:11:56.250 --> 00:12:00.539 after like... Five years in Berlin, I decided 00:12:00.539 --> 00:12:03.519 to, you know, like, yeah, let's do it. Let's 00:12:03.519 --> 00:12:06.820 start the entrepreneurship journey. Six years. 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:11.080 Six years. Sorry. And how far, how far did it 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:15.460 go with your company? We were onboarding users 00:12:15.460 --> 00:12:19.679 to test our MVP. So that's how far we went. I 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:22.340 started to have like conversations to do the 00:12:22.340 --> 00:12:26.120 first fundraising. So like, you know, talking 00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:28.940 to VCs and stuff like that. So still very early 00:12:28.940 --> 00:12:32.379 stage, but we had like for the first users, you 00:12:32.379 --> 00:12:34.620 know, onboarded and we were gathering feedback. 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:37.820 We were organizing events in Berlin to get people 00:12:37.820 --> 00:12:41.940 excited, you know, to talk about loneliness and 00:12:41.940 --> 00:12:45.039 yeah. So that's how far we went. It must be a 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:47.519 fun city to organize events, I'm assuming. Because 00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:50.120 Berlin is kind of known for its crazy nightlife 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:55.860 and all that. Yeah. I mean, Berlin, I think it's... 00:12:55.860 --> 00:12:57.379 I mean, I know that you're all in London and 00:12:57.379 --> 00:12:59.379 you're going to disagree with me, but I think 00:12:59.379 --> 00:13:03.399 Berlin is the coolest city in Europe, possibly. 00:13:04.100 --> 00:13:08.019 But I left, so I left in December. But when it 00:13:08.019 --> 00:13:12.220 comes to events, I think London, Berlin, or Paris 00:13:12.220 --> 00:13:16.059 possibly are fun cities. The thing with London 00:13:16.059 --> 00:13:19.059 is everything closes quite early, which for me, 00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:20.700 it's always a pain point because I'm always like, 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:23.059 I want to party the night away. I want to party 00:13:23.059 --> 00:13:25.399 until it's breakfast time. But people kind of 00:13:25.399 --> 00:13:28.039 shut down at 11. And if you're really lucky, 00:13:28.100 --> 00:13:30.419 you might find a club that closes at 3am. But 00:13:30.419 --> 00:13:32.240 apart from that, everyone just goes home super 00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:33.740 early, which really drives me nuts, to be honest. 00:13:34.379 --> 00:13:36.600 Okay, definitely then Berlin should have been 00:13:36.600 --> 00:13:39.139 your city because in Berlin, you can party nonstop 00:13:39.139 --> 00:13:42.460 from like Friday till Monday. Like literally, 00:13:42.500 --> 00:13:45.529 there are clubs that are open. the entire weekend 00:13:45.529 --> 00:13:48.350 like Berghain is open the entire weekend. Like 00:13:48.350 --> 00:13:51.149 people actually go there like at Sunday during 00:13:51.149 --> 00:13:53.970 breakfast, you know, like you wake up. Yeah, 00:13:53.970 --> 00:13:56.250 it's very common because there it's like a bit 00:13:56.250 --> 00:13:58.889 less crowded, like it's difficult to get in right. 00:13:59.049 --> 00:14:01.029 And if you go on a Saturday night, there is going 00:14:01.029 --> 00:14:03.850 to be like, probably like kilometers of lines 00:14:03.850 --> 00:14:07.009 like, you know, like to enter the club with no 00:14:07.009 --> 00:14:08.970 guarantee that you can get you will enter the 00:14:08.970 --> 00:14:11.230 crowd. Did you ever manage to get into the club? 00:14:11.529 --> 00:14:13.990 Yes, I managed. But because I looked like after 00:14:13.990 --> 00:14:16.610 a few years, I looked Berliner enough, right? 00:14:16.769 --> 00:14:19.269 Like, so you need to look like not a tourist. 00:14:20.250 --> 00:14:22.750 I see. Okay. Like you have to have the Berlin 00:14:22.750 --> 00:14:27.529 vibe. It's like, yeah, je ne sais quoi, you know, 00:14:28.370 --> 00:14:31.950 like I don't know what vibe, like little Berlin 00:14:31.950 --> 00:14:34.470 something. But yeah, you can go there and people 00:14:34.470 --> 00:14:37.190 usually go there like Sunday morning. So you 00:14:37.190 --> 00:14:39.769 wake up, you have your coffee, your croissant 00:14:39.769 --> 00:14:41.669 or whatever you have for breakfast, and then 00:14:41.669 --> 00:14:45.330 then you go to bed. And you go back and you go 00:14:45.330 --> 00:14:49.830 home like 10 11pm, you know, from like 99 or 00:14:49.830 --> 00:14:52.490 10am. So you party enough and then on Monday, 00:14:52.750 --> 00:14:55.950 you can go to work. That is fascinating. The 00:14:55.950 --> 00:14:57.889 idea of waking up and going to a club is like, 00:14:57.929 --> 00:15:00.950 I guess you really need to like clubs to do that. 00:15:01.169 --> 00:15:03.480 Yeah. And you know, the podcast, tell me about 00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:05.179 the podcast. When did you get started with it? 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:08.460 So I started the podcast, I think it was two 00:15:08.460 --> 00:15:11.059 years ago, but I wasn't the most consistent in 00:15:11.059 --> 00:15:14.320 publishing the podcast I did. So I didn't do 00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:18.080 that. Ongoingly, I did it in season. So every 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:20.559 year is a season. So I got season one, then I 00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:23.320 got season two. And now I'm releasing, I think 00:15:23.320 --> 00:15:25.940 like in a couple of weeks, a season three. So 00:15:25.940 --> 00:15:29.200 I usually find for each season about 10 guests. 00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:33.259 you know, and I deep dive with them on a certain 00:15:33.259 --> 00:15:36.700 topic, right? So the first year was around crypto 00:15:36.700 --> 00:15:40.759 a lot and blockchain and NFTs. The second year 00:15:40.759 --> 00:15:43.080 was more around like building a startup because 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:45.159 of course I was building my startup. So like 00:15:45.159 --> 00:15:48.539 it was selfish enough and building products in 00:15:48.539 --> 00:15:51.860 general. And then this year instead is much more 00:15:51.860 --> 00:15:55.659 about AI. So interviewing different people that 00:15:55.659 --> 00:15:59.570 look at AI from a different angle. Interesting. 00:16:00.009 --> 00:16:02.830 And what do you do with AI at the moment? What? 00:16:03.029 --> 00:16:05.350 Sorry. What are you doing with AI at the moment? 00:16:05.730 --> 00:16:07.669 Like you're on your own business as well with 00:16:07.669 --> 00:16:10.990 AI, right? Right now? Yeah, right now I'm mainly 00:16:10.990 --> 00:16:13.509 consulting businesses. I'm still licking my wins 00:16:13.509 --> 00:16:17.409 from, you know, the start of the server. Yeah, 00:16:17.409 --> 00:16:19.409 I mean, it happened. It happened in November. 00:16:19.570 --> 00:16:23.730 So it's like, it's like quite like we shut everything 00:16:23.730 --> 00:16:26.990 down in November. And it was like, yeah, a bit 00:16:26.990 --> 00:16:30.799 painful for me. So I'm still on the fences if 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:33.879 I want to do this again or not. Because now I 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:36.159 know, before I didn't know, now I know. I'm still 00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:38.480 on the fences about that, if I want to do that 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:41.879 or not. And in the meantime, I'm consulting businesses 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:45.299 regarding how to apply AI to their business and 00:16:45.299 --> 00:16:48.759 also creating content online. So mainly TikTok 00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:51.740 and Instagram. What got you started with the 00:16:51.740 --> 00:16:54.100 podcast? What was the core idea behind it? The 00:16:54.100 --> 00:16:58.500 core idea was communicating technology. to the 00:16:58.500 --> 00:17:02.399 larger audience. Because I remember when I first 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:07.720 started working in tech, it was discovering an 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:11.359 entire universe. I felt like Alice in Wonderland, 00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:15.259 but in tech, basically. The tech was the rabbit 00:17:15.259 --> 00:17:18.019 hole. And I found so fascinating this word, and 00:17:18.019 --> 00:17:21.279 I know the software, it's the power that will 00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:25.339 change the world. If you look at the major societal 00:17:25.339 --> 00:17:30.309 shifts that we have. had in the last 30 years. 00:17:30.609 --> 00:17:33.609 It's all because of software, basically, and 00:17:33.609 --> 00:17:35.549 a bit of hardware, of course, if you look at 00:17:35.549 --> 00:17:38.470 the iPhone, but the iPhone at the same time unlocked 00:17:38.470 --> 00:17:42.849 the App Store. That's where the magic really 00:17:42.849 --> 00:17:46.190 started to happen and social media and everything. 00:17:46.470 --> 00:17:49.970 I wanted to communicate the inner workings of 00:17:49.970 --> 00:17:54.210 this word to people that are external to it. 00:17:54.380 --> 00:17:57.700 And yeah, that's why I decided to start that 00:17:57.700 --> 00:18:01.420 on the podcast. Also starting a podcast allows 00:18:01.420 --> 00:18:04.460 you access. That's the selfish reason allows 00:18:04.460 --> 00:18:07.019 you access to people that you wouldn't normally 00:18:07.019 --> 00:18:10.319 have access to, like who will grant you one hour 00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:13.579 of their time or 30 minutes. And you can ask 00:18:13.579 --> 00:18:15.960 them whatever question you want. That is very 00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:19.079 true, actually. Right. Well, what is your, like, 00:18:19.140 --> 00:18:21.359 what did you start? What is your experience? 00:18:21.819 --> 00:18:25.279 Um, so it's, it's, um, Kind of similar, but slightly 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:26.880 different. So it's a good way of putting things. 00:18:27.880 --> 00:18:31.240 I saw a job ad online for a podcast, and this 00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:33.440 was with my business partner, Harry. He said, 00:18:33.500 --> 00:18:37.480 we're looking for a podcast host. And his original 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:41.400 idea was to have a podcast to promote his digital 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:43.799 marketing company. And I told him, well, that 00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:46.140 doesn't really work that well, because then you 00:18:46.140 --> 00:18:48.089 can't really interview people. expect to get 00:18:48.089 --> 00:18:50.509 them as clients. Let's just interview interesting 00:18:50.509 --> 00:18:53.230 people and then see how we go. And it is called 00:18:53.230 --> 00:18:55.569 Innovation Conversation. And the idea was just 00:18:55.569 --> 00:18:57.670 to talk with a lot of innovators. We kind of 00:18:57.670 --> 00:19:00.109 got started. We interviewed a lot of people in 00:19:00.109 --> 00:19:03.890 the beginning, really doing very cool, I guess, 00:19:04.069 --> 00:19:06.769 new things. Then Harry kind of dropped off around 00:19:06.769 --> 00:19:09.759 episode 20 or so. And I continue now episode 00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:12.740 70 something 75 or 76. And it's still the same 00:19:12.740 --> 00:19:14.619 thing, which is I interview entrepreneurs, I 00:19:14.619 --> 00:19:17.359 interview investors, I interview people in the 00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:19.660 ecosystem that can help out either startups launching 00:19:19.660 --> 00:19:22.880 out or just investors looking for new ideas and 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:27.880 new opportunities. So yeah. So you run 60, 65 00:19:27.880 --> 00:19:32.390 or 75 episodes? 75. 75. This week, I think it 00:19:32.390 --> 00:19:36.430 was 76. So next week will be 77. And yours will 00:19:36.430 --> 00:19:39.349 probably be 82 or something like that. Oh my 00:19:39.349 --> 00:19:44.289 God. Okay. So what do you find about podcasting 00:19:44.289 --> 00:19:49.269 that keeps you going? Because to record 80 plus 00:19:49.269 --> 00:19:54.089 podcasts, you must find something in it. What 00:19:54.089 --> 00:19:56.329 is it that you find in it? And what is the most 00:19:56.329 --> 00:19:59.170 difficult thing about running a podcast for you? 00:20:00.220 --> 00:20:02.740 A good question. I think the best thing is this, 00:20:02.819 --> 00:20:04.559 you get a chance, just like you said, to interview 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:07.099 a bunch of people who you might not normally 00:20:07.099 --> 00:20:09.900 have access to. And that opens up the way you 00:20:09.900 --> 00:20:12.000 think and that opens up your world, which is 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:15.279 pretty cool. And then secondly, for me, it's 00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:18.339 also about, I guess, broadening my horizons, 00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:20.099 if that makes sense. Because if I'm interviewing 00:20:20.099 --> 00:20:21.660 someone who's done something completely different 00:20:21.660 --> 00:20:23.960 or who has been very successful at business, 00:20:24.099 --> 00:20:26.950 I then realize actually... it's not that hard 00:20:26.950 --> 00:20:29.769 or there's I can do this as well myself so it 00:20:29.769 --> 00:20:31.750 kind of helps with my confidence and I think 00:20:31.750 --> 00:20:34.470 at the same time obviously it also helps the 00:20:34.470 --> 00:20:36.509 audience right so the audience gets a lot of 00:20:36.509 --> 00:20:39.130 insights from very successful people what works 00:20:39.130 --> 00:20:41.190 what doesn't work what they should actually pick 00:20:41.190 --> 00:20:44.430 up on tips and tricks and stuff like that yeah 00:20:44.430 --> 00:20:48.279 so it's quite it's quite insightful Yeah. And 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:50.619 what is the most challenging? I mean, I mean, 00:20:50.619 --> 00:20:52.480 you got to have some selfish reason. I don't 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:54.960 believe that people that just say, oh, I'm doing 00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:57.599 this, you know, just to educate people or for 00:20:57.599 --> 00:20:59.880 the good of my art. Like you can do that for 00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:02.299 like one, two, three, four episodes, but like 00:21:02.299 --> 00:21:07.559 at one point things get tough. Like if your motivation 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:10.559 is just external and there is nothing internal 00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:13.779 for you, it's difficult to keep it up. I think 00:21:13.779 --> 00:21:17.930 it is. And also. It takes a lot of work and there's 00:21:17.930 --> 00:21:19.529 a lot of weeks where for example i've had weeks 00:21:19.529 --> 00:21:22.170 in the past where i interview six people and 00:21:22.170 --> 00:21:24.170 by the six person interviewing the week you're 00:21:24.170 --> 00:21:25.630 drained you don't have any more questions to 00:21:25.630 --> 00:21:27.950 ask anyone right but then you also realize okay 00:21:27.950 --> 00:21:29.809 i've interviewed six people which means i now 00:21:29.809 --> 00:21:32.170 open up a lot of opportunities and i can then 00:21:32.170 --> 00:21:33.890 spend the next couple of weeks just you know 00:21:34.329 --> 00:21:36.230 exploring these opportunities. So it's actually 00:21:36.230 --> 00:21:38.789 quite helpful and quite beneficial for me at 00:21:38.789 --> 00:21:41.710 least. And oddly enough, also helps with confidence 00:21:41.710 --> 00:21:43.809 because now in front of the camera, you learn 00:21:43.809 --> 00:21:45.349 how to speak with the camera a little bit better. 00:21:45.509 --> 00:21:47.049 You're trying to fix like the way you speak. 00:21:47.450 --> 00:21:49.769 Am I pronouncing the words correctly? Stuff like 00:21:49.769 --> 00:21:51.930 that. And yeah, for me, I think it's quite a 00:21:51.930 --> 00:21:54.869 useful tool. And I think having the ability to 00:21:54.869 --> 00:21:57.349 tell people launching a business, it's not that 00:21:57.349 --> 00:21:59.769 hard. Just get started. Look out for these things, 00:21:59.769 --> 00:22:01.569 but it's not that hard. That also adds a lot 00:22:01.569 --> 00:22:08.559 of value. Yeah. I think podcasting taught me 00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:11.579 not to speak very well, as you can see, but it 00:22:11.579 --> 00:22:18.400 taught me how to listen well. When you're talking 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:20.960 to someone, like day -to -day life normally, 00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:22.660 you're also thinking about, okay, what am I going 00:22:22.660 --> 00:22:26.079 to say next? You're branching out a little bit. 00:22:26.099 --> 00:22:28.400 Instead of when you're interviewing someone for 00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:31.920 the podcast, You have to be a hundred percent 00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:34.960 zoom in on them, like full attention. You have 00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:38.259 to pick up on what they say to build upon the 00:22:38.259 --> 00:22:40.859 conversation. And also you need to learn, uh, 00:22:40.859 --> 00:22:43.559 like what clicks with your user. So like if the 00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:45.539 gas say something that you think can click with 00:22:45.539 --> 00:22:47.720 your user, like then you have to double click 00:22:47.720 --> 00:22:50.099 on that. And to do that, you have to pay a hundred 00:22:50.099 --> 00:22:52.319 percent attention. And for me that I have ADHD, 00:22:52.900 --> 00:22:56.380 like that was immensely. helpful. Yeah, I found 00:22:56.380 --> 00:22:58.099 something quite interesting. We were talking 00:22:58.099 --> 00:23:00.539 before this, just for the audience and knowledge. 00:23:00.940 --> 00:23:02.859 And you're asking is there a set structure for 00:23:02.859 --> 00:23:05.539 the podcast? And I said, I never keep a set structure. 00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:08.240 So what I normally do just to keep the conversation 00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:11.339 flowing is I do my research on my guests, then 00:23:11.339 --> 00:23:13.339 I pick up on a couple of keywords and I want 00:23:13.339 --> 00:23:15.599 to interview them on and then I ask questions 00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:17.519 around those keywords, but I let the conversation 00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:20.019 flow. So we're talking about how you got started, 00:23:20.079 --> 00:23:21.779 your product manager, then you move over to your 00:23:21.779 --> 00:23:23.920 own startup, lessons, failures, then you move 00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:26.539 over to being a podcast host. And now you're 00:23:26.539 --> 00:23:29.140 also doing consulting jobs. So it kind of just 00:23:29.140 --> 00:23:32.359 flows where if I was just to ask very rigid questions 00:23:32.359 --> 00:23:34.640 around those things, it would not flow. It would 00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:37.039 sound like a Gestapo questionnaire. And we will 00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:38.720 never find out you managed to get into the business 00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:40.859 club in Berlin. So it's like, you know what? 00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:44.019 Tips on how to get into Berghain for non -Berliners. 00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:48.799 Number one, wear black. I've heard that one. 00:23:49.140 --> 00:23:51.319 Yes. But then you need like put some piercings 00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:53.380 in your face. I mean, how does that work? I mean, 00:23:53.380 --> 00:23:55.480 I don't have piercings in my face and I don't 00:23:55.480 --> 00:23:57.799 put fake one, but it's like more of the attitude. 00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:00.619 Like, okay, you need to be dressed like, you 00:24:00.619 --> 00:24:03.200 know, like a bit of Berlin style, like black, 00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:05.779 like the stereotype is true. Like, so if you 00:24:05.779 --> 00:24:08.380 Google like Berlin style, like you'll find Pinterest 00:24:08.380 --> 00:24:11.220 boards and stuff like that. But it's more like 00:24:11.220 --> 00:24:14.660 the attitude. So I will advise people not to 00:24:14.660 --> 00:24:19.630 come to Berlin. just to enter the club, spend 00:24:19.630 --> 00:24:23.269 a few days in Berlin first, pick up what the 00:24:23.269 --> 00:24:27.910 locals feel like, pick up the vibes and try to 00:24:27.910 --> 00:24:30.690 replicate the vibe. Alternatively, find people 00:24:30.690 --> 00:24:32.950 that live in Berlin, make friends with them, 00:24:33.069 --> 00:24:35.509 and then try to imitate them and get in with 00:24:35.509 --> 00:24:39.329 them. That's easier. Interesting, okay. I would 00:24:39.329 --> 00:24:40.890 probably fail at the first one because I don't 00:24:40.890 --> 00:24:42.970 think I have all black clothes ever. So that 00:24:42.970 --> 00:24:45.170 might be a struggle for me. Yeah, you can think 00:24:45.170 --> 00:24:48.750 of it like wearing a costume if you want, like 00:24:48.750 --> 00:24:54.049 Halloween or something. Interesting. Actually, 00:24:54.250 --> 00:24:55.809 I was just curious, how is the startup scene 00:24:55.809 --> 00:24:57.970 in Berlin? Because I heard it's quite active. 00:24:58.910 --> 00:25:02.180 It is quite active. A lot of people come to Berlin 00:25:02.180 --> 00:25:04.259 to try to build their own startup, especially 00:25:04.259 --> 00:25:08.519 after Brexit. I think that before London was 00:25:08.519 --> 00:25:11.480 the place to be before Brexit. Now it's a bit 00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:16.079 more difficult to go to London to do that from 00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:19.039 Europe. And so people just started, you know, 00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:22.569 like... There is a lot of ecosystem, a lot of 00:25:22.569 --> 00:25:25.250 events centered around startup. When I opened 00:25:25.250 --> 00:25:29.970 my phone, I had three, four, five startup events 00:25:29.970 --> 00:25:32.750 every single day basically to go to. And then 00:25:32.750 --> 00:25:36.529 it's like, which one do I go to? Right? And mostly 00:25:36.529 --> 00:25:39.970 sometimes in very cool places, like very alternative, 00:25:40.369 --> 00:25:43.529 you know, there are startup accelerators, help 00:25:43.529 --> 00:25:45.950 from the government. There is this called Startup 00:25:45.950 --> 00:25:48.430 Stipendium, especially in Berlin. There is like 00:25:48.430 --> 00:25:51.529 a Berliner Startup Stipendium. So you can, if 00:25:51.529 --> 00:25:53.789 you win this Stipendium, you can work on your 00:25:53.789 --> 00:25:55.930 startup for a year. So like you basically get 00:25:55.930 --> 00:25:58.230 a salary for a year. Yeah. That's pretty good. 00:25:58.769 --> 00:26:02.769 Yeah. I mean, there is a lot that they try to 00:26:02.769 --> 00:26:06.410 do to help startups, you know, take off. I mean, 00:26:06.470 --> 00:26:08.789 you have to win it. You have to win the, you 00:26:08.789 --> 00:26:10.349 know, like it's not that they just give it to 00:26:10.349 --> 00:26:12.710 you if you ask it. You have to, you know, do 00:26:12.710 --> 00:26:15.069 have an affiliation. There are several different 00:26:15.069 --> 00:26:18.369 institutes that are affiliated to with the Berliner 00:26:18.369 --> 00:26:21.349 Startup Stipendium. And if you manage to get 00:26:21.349 --> 00:26:24.809 into one, then you can work on your startup with 00:26:24.809 --> 00:26:28.819 like some peace of mind. Yeah, that's great. 00:26:29.579 --> 00:26:31.900 How is it in London? Is there like an equivalent 00:26:31.900 --> 00:26:34.700 of Berlin Startups Dependium or something like 00:26:34.700 --> 00:26:37.500 that? It's not a citywide. So there's a lot of 00:26:37.500 --> 00:26:39.680 accelerators that you can apply for. Obviously, 00:26:39.859 --> 00:26:41.599 if you apply for those accelerators, you get 00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:43.859 a monthly fee and you can get some money to get 00:26:43.859 --> 00:26:45.779 launched, get started. But I don't think there's 00:26:45.779 --> 00:26:48.079 like something so generic, which is like everyone 00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:50.119 applies to the same program. It's actually quite 00:26:50.119 --> 00:26:52.240 diverse. There's different programs you can apply. 00:26:52.500 --> 00:26:54.680 Some are from the government. Others are from 00:26:54.680 --> 00:26:57.660 the council, the London mayor. Others are even 00:26:57.660 --> 00:26:59.440 from the Prince Trust, for example, which is 00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:02.099 something that got started by now King Charles 00:27:02.099 --> 00:27:03.420 when he was a prince. That's why it's called 00:27:03.420 --> 00:27:05.099 the Prince Trust. And the idea is to actually 00:27:05.099 --> 00:27:07.720 help young people launch their business and multiple 00:27:07.720 --> 00:27:09.559 other things. So, yeah, there's quite a lot of 00:27:09.559 --> 00:27:11.680 support, I guess, if you go and look for it. 00:27:12.019 --> 00:27:14.000 Also, I think the cost of launching a business 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:17.279 is very, very low in the UK. So, you know, setting 00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:19.640 up your own company costs about 50 pounds, which 00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:21.400 I know is a big difference with Germany. And 00:27:21.400 --> 00:27:23.700 then with that, you then become a company director. 00:27:23.880 --> 00:27:26.259 You can open a bank account. You can start trading 00:27:26.259 --> 00:27:29.519 overnight if you desire. That makes it easier 00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:32.160 in terms of the legal element of things. And 00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:34.519 then they have something called the SEIS program, 00:27:34.700 --> 00:27:37.559 which helps a lot to get some investors on board. 00:27:37.740 --> 00:27:39.960 So for anyone from not from London listening 00:27:39.960 --> 00:27:42.299 to this have have a read on this because it's 00:27:42.299 --> 00:27:44.619 actually quite impactful. And that's one of the 00:27:44.619 --> 00:27:46.380 main things that investors look for is like, 00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:48.859 are you registered for the SIS scheme? If so, 00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:51.539 let's invest with you because they know they're 00:27:51.539 --> 00:27:53.400 somewhat protected. So that makes a big difference. 00:27:53.769 --> 00:27:56.970 Okay. Just to clarify, the Berlin Startup, Stipendium 00:27:56.970 --> 00:27:59.569 is not the only thing. We have many more programs. 00:28:00.150 --> 00:28:04.349 There are both regional and nationwide, but just 00:28:04.349 --> 00:28:07.410 like in Berlin, people apply to that because 00:28:07.410 --> 00:28:10.349 it's very well -founded and there are a lot of 00:28:10.349 --> 00:28:12.529 institutions that are affiliated with the program. 00:28:12.970 --> 00:28:15.769 Um, so they provide not only a stipendium, but 00:28:15.769 --> 00:28:18.650 they provide like a working space and stuff like 00:28:18.650 --> 00:28:20.789 that. Today, you know, it's, it's in Berlin. 00:28:20.849 --> 00:28:24.029 So that's why it's very popular. But yeah, I 00:28:24.029 --> 00:28:26.990 feel like how are our costs for running businesses? 00:28:27.130 --> 00:28:30.509 Uh, it's much higher. Much higher. Yeah. Like 00:28:30.509 --> 00:28:33.670 you, you can't open, uh, like a startup, uh, 00:28:33.670 --> 00:28:37.750 with 50 pounds or 50 or like 60, 50 euros in, 00:28:37.750 --> 00:28:40.750 in Germany. I mean, you can, there is like, uh, 00:28:40.750 --> 00:28:43.750 like, uh, like. The same, you know, like, but 00:28:43.750 --> 00:28:45.750 no one will take you seriously and no one will 00:28:45.750 --> 00:28:48.130 invest in your company. No VC will invest in 00:28:48.130 --> 00:28:49.890 our UK. Basically you need to have a game bear, 00:28:50.349 --> 00:28:52.849 which is a limited liability company. And that's 00:28:52.849 --> 00:28:57.289 like 20 K to invest, you know? Yeah. I mean, 00:28:57.309 --> 00:28:59.589 otherwise like no VC will even look at you in 00:28:59.589 --> 00:29:02.829 the face, basically. Like, oh, you don't believe 00:29:02.829 --> 00:29:04.450 that you don't believe in your startup enough 00:29:04.450 --> 00:29:09.170 to invest that amount of money. Interesting. 00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:12.640 Yeah, it's different. VCs in Germany are a bit 00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:15.779 more conservative in that regard, a bit more 00:29:15.779 --> 00:29:19.500 traditional. So they want to feel a bit more 00:29:19.500 --> 00:29:22.940 secure before investing. Makes sense. I guess 00:29:22.940 --> 00:29:25.299 it makes sense. But then it also creates a barrier 00:29:25.299 --> 00:29:27.099 to entry, doesn't it? Because a lot of startups 00:29:27.099 --> 00:29:29.539 were actually founded by people with not a lot 00:29:29.539 --> 00:29:30.980 of money. And that's probably one of the reasons 00:29:30.980 --> 00:29:33.220 you want to launch a business is because you 00:29:33.220 --> 00:29:36.759 want to make a lot of money. So asking for 20K 00:29:36.759 --> 00:29:38.700 just to get started might not be the easiest 00:29:38.700 --> 00:29:41.480 thing. I don't know. Maybe it proves a point, 00:29:42.039 --> 00:29:43.740 like it proves that you're at least able to get 00:29:43.740 --> 00:29:46.900 20K, right? Yeah. I mean, you don't have to get 00:29:46.900 --> 00:29:52.660 K immediately. I think you can do with half of 00:29:52.660 --> 00:29:56.019 them at the beginning just to incorporate, but 00:29:56.019 --> 00:30:00.240 you are liable for 20K. Yes. Well, that's quite 00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:03.609 a lot of money. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds interesting 00:30:03.609 --> 00:30:06.390 what you know, I was like asking this question, 00:30:06.430 --> 00:30:07.829 you know when you were having all these down 00:30:07.829 --> 00:30:10.970 moments and stuff like that What kept you motivated? 00:30:11.470 --> 00:30:13.890 What did you say to yourself to bring you back 00:30:13.890 --> 00:30:16.329 into you know into your game into your passionate 00:30:16.329 --> 00:30:20.990 self? I guess That's a good question that's a 00:30:20.990 --> 00:30:22.529 good question because I can think of several 00:30:22.529 --> 00:30:25.509 answer but I'm trying to like isolate one, you 00:30:25.509 --> 00:30:30.799 know, I guess like a sort of internal optimism 00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:33.819 that everything will go well in the end. Even 00:30:33.819 --> 00:30:36.319 if it's not what I envision, even if it doesn't 00:30:36.319 --> 00:30:38.799 look like what I want right now, everything will 00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:43.359 sort itself out. I always believe that I will 00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:46.759 end up on my feet no matter what. I have this 00:30:46.759 --> 00:30:49.299 sort of inner conviction. Like a cat. It's like 00:30:49.299 --> 00:30:52.109 a cat. Yeah, like even if it happens like at 00:30:52.109 --> 00:30:55.130 the very last possible second, but it will happen. 00:30:55.349 --> 00:30:57.630 And I always have like this conviction, you know? 00:30:57.769 --> 00:31:00.130 So like, I think like having this sort of internal 00:31:00.130 --> 00:31:03.809 optimism kind of keeps you going. You know, even 00:31:03.809 --> 00:31:07.230 in the toughest moments, that's why I say that 00:31:07.230 --> 00:31:10.009 like beliefs, like the beliefs that you have 00:31:10.009 --> 00:31:13.069 are super important when you're trying to build 00:31:13.069 --> 00:31:14.789 a startup of it. Because if you think that in 00:31:14.789 --> 00:31:16.970 the end, you'll always be okay, no matter the 00:31:16.970 --> 00:31:22.809 setbacks, you will be. And even like my startup 00:31:22.809 --> 00:31:26.970 didn't go well, failed. The way I see it is that 00:31:26.970 --> 00:31:32.390 it failed because I needed to learn lessons to 00:31:32.390 --> 00:31:35.430 build my next startup. That's one point. And 00:31:35.430 --> 00:31:38.829 if I look at my life since then, actually, my 00:31:38.829 --> 00:31:41.529 life has quite improved. I think that's the thing 00:31:41.529 --> 00:31:43.369 most people don't realize. You don't need to 00:31:43.369 --> 00:31:44.809 make it every time. You need to make it once. 00:31:45.490 --> 00:31:47.750 Yeah, exactly. And then everything else you fail, 00:31:47.789 --> 00:31:49.210 that's okay, because that's a learning curve. 00:31:49.309 --> 00:31:51.269 At least you've learned something. Obviously, 00:31:51.349 --> 00:31:53.630 don't do the same mistake twice. But as long 00:31:53.630 --> 00:31:55.369 as you keep on learning, it will get to the point 00:31:55.369 --> 00:31:56.589 where you're actually going to be successful. 00:31:56.609 --> 00:31:58.970 And there's tons of cases of people who only 00:31:58.970 --> 00:32:01.569 managed to do so very late in life. I'm going 00:32:01.569 --> 00:32:03.789 to say the classical ones, because I think everyone 00:32:03.789 --> 00:32:06.759 will recognize them. But look at Colonel Sanders 00:32:06.759 --> 00:32:09.640 from KFC will look at Ray Kroc from McDonald's. 00:32:09.640 --> 00:32:12.059 It's the same thing. They got in very late at 00:32:12.059 --> 00:32:14.660 life. They failed multiple times before, and 00:32:14.660 --> 00:32:16.200 then all of a sudden they hit the nail on the 00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:17.640 head. Okay, this is exactly what needed to be 00:32:17.640 --> 00:32:20.339 successful. And it took off. So yeah, you never 00:32:20.339 --> 00:32:24.019 know. And actually, I think for a minute as failure, 00:32:24.460 --> 00:32:28.079 you fail when you stop learning and reinventing 00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:31.980 yourself, I feel. Otherwise, anything else is 00:32:31.980 --> 00:32:36.910 an experiment gone south, basically. or a lesson 00:32:36.910 --> 00:32:39.670 that you needed to learn. Like that's my preferred 00:32:39.670 --> 00:32:42.450 lenses. This is a lesson that I needed to learn. 00:32:43.109 --> 00:32:45.509 And like if I fail to learn from that lesson, 00:32:45.890 --> 00:32:49.609 that's a fail. So that's how I see it. And like, 00:32:49.710 --> 00:32:52.130 if you see it, things like that, if you see life 00:32:52.130 --> 00:32:55.069 as a series of experiment, you know, that might 00:32:55.069 --> 00:32:57.869 go well, might go another way that you originally 00:32:57.869 --> 00:33:01.089 thought, but you learned from that, that's really 00:33:01.089 --> 00:33:03.359 helpful. And keep showing up. I think that's 00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:05.359 the most important thing. Keep showing up. There's 00:33:05.359 --> 00:33:07.299 good days, bad days. You keep on showing up and 00:33:07.299 --> 00:33:11.119 eventually you make it. It's like going to the 00:33:11.119 --> 00:33:13.019 gym. You're going to have really good gym sessions 00:33:13.019 --> 00:33:15.819 and really bad gym sessions. But when you have 00:33:15.819 --> 00:33:18.339 a bad gym session, which happens, you still showed 00:33:18.339 --> 00:33:20.500 up and that counts more than anything else. So 00:33:20.500 --> 00:33:22.500 you might not do, I don't know, 10 pull -ups. 00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:25.259 You're going to do one, but you still been to 00:33:25.259 --> 00:33:27.180 the gym and that makes a huge difference. When 00:33:27.180 --> 00:33:29.660 you start adding all those things together, you're 00:33:29.660 --> 00:33:33.700 good to go. What keeps you going instead? That 00:33:33.700 --> 00:33:37.819 was my personal answer, but what is yours? I 00:33:37.819 --> 00:33:41.859 am stubborn as a mule. That helps too. That helps. 00:33:42.500 --> 00:33:44.579 I just think that I still have a lot of stuff 00:33:44.579 --> 00:33:46.940 to do and because I have a lot of stuff to do, 00:33:46.980 --> 00:33:49.160 I keep on doing it. So when things don't go my 00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:51.019 way, I said, no, no, no, screw this. I'm going 00:33:51.019 --> 00:33:53.420 to continue doing this or continue doing whatever 00:33:53.420 --> 00:33:55.299 I feel like doing because I am stubborn as a 00:33:55.299 --> 00:33:57.339 mule. I'm going to prove people that I can do 00:33:57.339 --> 00:34:00.119 it. Yeah, that's kind of keeps me motivated and 00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:02.940 keeps on pushing forward. And throughout my many 00:34:02.940 --> 00:34:04.880 failures in life, because I had many, like I 00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:06.980 guess most people, I kept on pushing. I never 00:34:06.980 --> 00:34:08.940 stopped because like, why would you stop? You 00:34:08.940 --> 00:34:11.300 just failed. So surely there's some reward coming 00:34:11.300 --> 00:34:14.179 your way in some way. So you keep on pushing. 00:34:14.739 --> 00:34:16.840 And it normally happens, you know, it turns out. 00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:20.719 OK, so. Yeah. And if you push like, OK, question 00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:24.519 for you. OK, we're reversing roles now. No, it's 00:34:24.519 --> 00:34:26.849 like it's like a conversation. Come on. It is 00:34:26.849 --> 00:34:28.989 a conversation. But I'm curious because I struggle 00:34:28.989 --> 00:34:30.710 a bit with this. That's why I'm going to ask 00:34:30.710 --> 00:34:34.699 you. You say you're stubborn as a mule. But is 00:34:34.699 --> 00:34:37.360 there a point when you say this is enough? I'm 00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:40.380 being too stubborn about this, just to prove 00:34:40.380 --> 00:34:43.199 a point, I need to move forward. Or do you just 00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:46.059 keep pushing? And if so, how do you realize, 00:34:46.219 --> 00:34:49.659 if you're not pushing, how do you realize when 00:34:49.659 --> 00:34:52.500 it's time to stop? Or I guess the better question 00:34:52.500 --> 00:34:54.920 is what makes you realize that you need to stop 00:34:54.920 --> 00:34:58.460 and focus on something else? So it starts before 00:34:58.460 --> 00:35:00.940 that. So the way I see things is... You should 00:35:00.940 --> 00:35:03.599 always ask enough questions and try to always 00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:06.300 incorporate feedback from the people around you 00:35:06.300 --> 00:35:10.480 so that you're not literally stubborn as a mule. 00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:12.579 That's okay because you're getting some feedback, 00:35:12.659 --> 00:35:15.059 you're learning, you're navigating. So saying 00:35:15.059 --> 00:35:17.059 that the way forward is always the best way might 00:35:17.059 --> 00:35:19.460 not be correct. And as long as you get feedback, 00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:21.380 as long as you're open to feedback, you will 00:35:21.380 --> 00:35:23.940 find the way, even though it might be very curvy, 00:35:24.039 --> 00:35:25.900 to get to your goals. So you need to be flexible 00:35:25.900 --> 00:35:28.099 in that regard. What I mean by being stubborn 00:35:28.099 --> 00:35:30.099 as a mule is that if people say you can't do 00:35:30.099 --> 00:35:33.099 that, And then you ask why, because I said, no, 00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:35.860 then I'm like, that's not going to happen. So 00:35:35.860 --> 00:35:38.219 if I set my mind on to achieve something, I will 00:35:38.219 --> 00:35:40.440 find a way of achieving that something. And that's 00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:42.360 what I mean. You need to be stubborn as a mule 00:35:42.360 --> 00:35:44.360 in the sense that you need to be able to say, 00:35:44.360 --> 00:35:46.300 okay, this is what I'm setting out to achieve. 00:35:46.860 --> 00:35:50.260 How? I'm super flexible. There's a good saying 00:35:50.260 --> 00:35:52.380 that I think it was Bruce Lee kept on saying, 00:35:52.699 --> 00:35:55.170 be like water. And water is that wonderful thing 00:35:55.170 --> 00:35:57.449 that's very strong and always finds a way. And 00:35:57.449 --> 00:35:58.989 it's the same thing with your goals and your 00:35:58.989 --> 00:36:00.989 ambitions. You're very strong. You need to find 00:36:00.989 --> 00:36:03.289 a way. It doesn't matter where you're gonna go, 00:36:03.389 --> 00:36:05.409 but you still manage to find a way. So that's 00:36:05.409 --> 00:36:08.320 kind of my philosophy. I feel like if I look 00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:12.440 at the startup success, most people think it's 00:36:12.440 --> 00:36:15.119 like instant success, but actually most of the 00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:18.619 time it's people struggling for years to find 00:36:18.619 --> 00:36:21.619 product market fit and continually pivoting and 00:36:21.619 --> 00:36:24.800 people telling them that they were crazy to keep 00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:29.559 pushing, literally crazy. I think that to succeed, 00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:32.199 you need to be delusional a little. I know that 00:36:32.199 --> 00:36:36.000 a lot, right? Like you need to be so like convinced, 00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:39.380 you know, even if no one else sees it, you see 00:36:39.380 --> 00:36:43.280 it, you know, and just push. I had a lot of millionaires, 00:36:43.539 --> 00:36:45.239 probably billionaires here on this show. And 00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:47.000 all of them have said the same thing. You need 00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:48.719 to be delusional. You need to be the guy that 00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:50.519 keeps on pushing or the guy or the girl keeps 00:36:50.519 --> 00:36:52.420 on pushing. When everyone says, why don't you 00:36:52.420 --> 00:36:54.019 stop? Why don't you go find a nice stable job? 00:36:54.119 --> 00:36:55.800 Like, no, no, no, because this is what I want 00:36:55.800 --> 00:36:58.820 to do. And people are willing to take their risk 00:36:58.820 --> 00:37:01.769 and take that suffering, which is I will now 00:37:01.769 --> 00:37:04.550 live in uncertainty for X amount of time until 00:37:04.550 --> 00:37:07.010 I achieve what I set out to achieve. And not 00:37:07.010 --> 00:37:10.050 everyone has that. And so, yeah, I guess you're 00:37:10.050 --> 00:37:13.230 born with it, maybe. Or you become an entrepreneur 00:37:13.230 --> 00:37:15.829 due to necessity. You know, if you don't have 00:37:15.829 --> 00:37:17.530 any food on the table, you find a way of getting 00:37:17.530 --> 00:37:20.289 food on the table. So, yeah, it's one of those 00:37:20.289 --> 00:37:25.489 things. Necessity is something that always pushes 00:37:25.489 --> 00:37:28.960 you forward. Yeah the uncertainty it's something 00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:33.519 just if everyone is like listening and considering 00:37:33.519 --> 00:37:37.159 oh should i do this or not like like it's super 00:37:37.159 --> 00:37:40.440 rewarding. But on the other hand the uncertainty 00:37:40.440 --> 00:37:43.760 like me i never did something on my own before 00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:47.280 like two years ago and like i'm in my thirties 00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:50.699 i'm not twenty and i'm a woman so interior like 00:37:50.699 --> 00:37:54.050 my you know. Uh, like, uh, you know, most of 00:37:54.050 --> 00:37:56.849 my friends are like family and children and instead 00:37:56.849 --> 00:37:59.670 I decide to, you know, like, yeah, let's, you 00:37:59.670 --> 00:38:02.070 know, dump everything that I was doing, like, 00:38:02.070 --> 00:38:04.210 uh, change city. Now I'm going to travel the 00:38:04.210 --> 00:38:06.110 world, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 00:38:06.349 --> 00:38:06.349 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 00:38:06.349 --> 00:38:06.349 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 00:38:06.349 --> 00:38:06.349 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 00:38:06.349 --> 00:38:06.349 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 00:38:06.349 --> 00:38:06.489 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 00:38:06.489 --> 00:38:06.489 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 00:38:06.489 --> 00:38:06.489 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 00:38:06.489 --> 00:38:06.730 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 00:38:06.730 --> 00:38:08.070 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 00:38:08.070 --> 00:38:16.420 blah, blah, blah, Right? Because it's like everything 00:38:16.420 --> 00:38:19.360 that you learn and the experience and who you 00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:21.840 become as a person as a result of that, but you 00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:24.699 need to be able to learn to manage that. How 00:38:24.699 --> 00:38:27.699 do you like, and that is the question to you, 00:38:27.980 --> 00:38:31.219 how do you learn to manage the uncertainty? How 00:38:31.219 --> 00:38:32.739 do you learn to manage the uncertainty? That's 00:38:32.739 --> 00:38:34.820 a good question. I mean, I found that the only 00:38:34.820 --> 00:38:36.900 thing having gone through bad moments in my life, 00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:38.880 I found that the only thing that really sticks 00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:41.730 through is myself. And of course, a selected 00:38:41.730 --> 00:38:44.010 group of friends and family and everything else 00:38:44.010 --> 00:38:47.730 is temporary. So there's really not any certainty 00:38:47.730 --> 00:38:49.690 in life. You might think you have a great job 00:38:49.690 --> 00:38:51.590 and then next day it's gone. What happened to 00:38:51.590 --> 00:38:53.389 my great job? That was I was set for life. No, 00:38:53.409 --> 00:38:56.010 you're not. Doesn't work like that. So I rather 00:38:56.010 --> 00:38:58.530 be in control of my decisions and in control 00:38:58.530 --> 00:39:01.809 of my own uncertainty and say, you know, I choose 00:39:01.809 --> 00:39:04.570 to be uncertain, but I also choose to reap the 00:39:04.570 --> 00:39:06.969 rewards of that uncertainty instead of saying 00:39:06.969 --> 00:39:08.610 I'm going to stay here and everything is completely 00:39:08.610 --> 00:39:11.429 fine until a storm comes. I don't know. If I'm 00:39:11.429 --> 00:39:13.829 already at sea learning how to navigate the storms, 00:39:14.110 --> 00:39:16.250 if there's a storm, I'm much better equipped 00:39:16.250 --> 00:39:19.170 to navigate it than if I just sit in my little 00:39:19.170 --> 00:39:22.230 corner of, I guess, let's use the same example. 00:39:22.590 --> 00:39:24.650 If I sit in my little boat hoping there's never 00:39:24.650 --> 00:39:27.789 any storm, I'm going to sink. If I'm out at sea 00:39:27.789 --> 00:39:30.170 and deal with any storm that might come my way, 00:39:30.250 --> 00:39:33.010 I'll manage to find the correct way. So it's 00:39:33.010 --> 00:39:35.289 a bit of a gamble. It's a bit risky, but I just 00:39:35.289 --> 00:39:37.949 find it to work. I feel like what you're saying, 00:39:38.309 --> 00:39:41.210 like this quality. It's probably one of the most 00:39:41.210 --> 00:39:46.150 important quality that people can cultivate moving 00:39:46.150 --> 00:39:52.030 forward. If it's true that we're going into a 00:39:52.030 --> 00:39:55.809 future where increasingly AI can take over more 00:39:55.809 --> 00:40:00.429 tasks, can automate things a bit more, I'm certain 00:40:00.429 --> 00:40:03.409 we will get there, but I'm very skeptical on 00:40:03.409 --> 00:40:05.889 the timeframe. I think that sometimes those AI 00:40:05.889 --> 00:40:10.050 companies tend to... accelerate, you know, like 00:40:10.050 --> 00:40:13.269 over promise a little, but I'm sure that we will 00:40:13.269 --> 00:40:15.369 get there. If it's not like in two or three years, 00:40:15.590 --> 00:40:17.989 it's going to be like maybe in 10 years, right? 00:40:18.210 --> 00:40:21.650 But it's like still a reasonably, you know, short 00:40:21.650 --> 00:40:25.010 timeframe. So I feel like a disability for people, 00:40:25.010 --> 00:40:29.070 you know, to learn to cultivate, like living 00:40:29.070 --> 00:40:32.349 with uncertainty and what you can do to, you 00:40:32.349 --> 00:40:35.530 know, like secure your future. It's something 00:40:35.530 --> 00:40:39.039 that like, Maybe it's like just a thought that 00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:42.280 she will start being there. I feel there's also 00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:45.019 I think that with the whole AI thing what's bound 00:40:45.019 --> 00:40:48.400 to happen is We are bound to have to think a 00:40:48.400 --> 00:40:50.360 lot more than we do right now because right now 00:40:50.360 --> 00:40:52.960 we consume a lot of information Whereas in with 00:40:52.960 --> 00:40:55.519 it with AI we now have some someone who is able 00:40:55.519 --> 00:40:57.659 to process that information and give us results 00:40:57.659 --> 00:41:00.559 Now what we do with it comes out to our thinking 00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:03.940 abilities so I can ask a series of questions 00:41:03.940 --> 00:41:06.579 on CHPT or whatever platform I decide to use. 00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:09.340 And what I choose to do with that information 00:41:09.340 --> 00:41:10.719 is really what's important, not so much with 00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:12.539 the information I have. So being able to think 00:41:12.539 --> 00:41:15.320 on your own, thinking on your own two feet, is 00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:17.460 the key to being successful. At least that's 00:41:17.460 --> 00:41:20.239 what I think in this AI element. Because before 00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:22.039 you live in a society where people were told 00:41:22.039 --> 00:41:23.619 what to do, you get your job, someone tells you 00:41:23.619 --> 00:41:25.710 what to do. Okay, cool. and you do it because 00:41:25.710 --> 00:41:27.170 that's the skill set, that's the very limited 00:41:27.170 --> 00:41:29.130 skill set you have. And then you have a leader 00:41:29.130 --> 00:41:31.710 on top of you that looks okay, this person is 00:41:31.710 --> 00:41:33.050 producing this information, the other person 00:41:33.050 --> 00:41:34.469 is putting that information and putting it all 00:41:34.469 --> 00:41:36.969 together. Let's bring a result. Whereas in now, 00:41:37.110 --> 00:41:39.389 because everyone has access to the same ability 00:41:39.389 --> 00:41:41.969 to produce stuff, it's more, okay, what do I 00:41:41.969 --> 00:41:44.070 do with this? So you need to think a lot more, 00:41:44.309 --> 00:41:45.570 but that's actually a good thing. It's not a 00:41:45.570 --> 00:41:48.110 bad thing. And maybe they'll stop us becoming 00:41:48.110 --> 00:41:50.349 consumers, but actually creators of something. 00:41:50.610 --> 00:41:52.250 And yeah, that could be quite an interesting 00:41:52.250 --> 00:41:55.469 future. Not for everyone, I know, but for the 00:41:55.469 --> 00:41:56.949 ones who choose to embrace that, that's going 00:41:56.949 --> 00:41:59.909 to be fascinating, isn't it? Yeah, I believe 00:41:59.909 --> 00:42:03.510 so as well. I find so fascinating that you actually 00:42:03.510 --> 00:42:07.130 say that AI is going to push us to think more 00:42:07.130 --> 00:42:10.809 instead of less. That's actually the correct 00:42:10.809 --> 00:42:16.170 use of AI. I feel like people sometimes misunderstand 00:42:16.170 --> 00:42:19.349 the inner workings of AI and that AI is like 00:42:19.349 --> 00:42:22.739 work. Like an LLM is like a probabilistic system, 00:42:23.219 --> 00:42:26.079 right? It works in probability. That means that 00:42:26.079 --> 00:42:28.360 there is a chance that it might hallucinate, 00:42:28.780 --> 00:42:31.059 that it might not give you the correct answer. 00:42:31.139 --> 00:42:34.280 And if you take everything at face value, you 00:42:34.280 --> 00:42:38.320 know, like you might end up doing mistakes in 00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:41.159 your work, in whatever you do. So you really 00:42:41.159 --> 00:42:45.239 want to actually do hon. on this critical thinking, 00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:48.159 you know, that you have. And actually, if you 00:42:48.159 --> 00:42:52.900 inject your own taste, your own personality into 00:42:52.900 --> 00:42:55.860 your prompt, for example, you can get so much 00:42:55.860 --> 00:42:59.179 more results than compared to being generic. 00:43:00.980 --> 00:43:04.699 So yeah, I actually agree 100 % with what you're 00:43:04.699 --> 00:43:06.599 saying. I also know that this is not going to 00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:10.199 be for everyone. Like some people are probably 00:43:10.199 --> 00:43:13.000 going to feel very overwhelmed, you know, with 00:43:12.889 --> 00:43:15.369 the pace of technology and what's happening. 00:43:15.630 --> 00:43:18.550 But if you, if it's not too late to, you know, 00:43:18.690 --> 00:43:21.449 get on top of it right now and really start. 00:43:22.090 --> 00:43:24.489 It's not, but it comes down to, you know, when 00:43:24.489 --> 00:43:26.929 I was in school, I remember that the best student 00:43:26.929 --> 00:43:29.849 was not the one who was able to think the hardest. 00:43:30.130 --> 00:43:31.809 The best student was the one who was able to 00:43:31.809 --> 00:43:34.110 memorize the hardest and then put it all in an 00:43:34.110 --> 00:43:36.489 exam and that's it, call it quits. And that for 00:43:36.489 --> 00:43:38.489 me is just the wrong model because that doesn't 00:43:38.489 --> 00:43:41.019 reflect in the working place at all. So if you 00:43:41.019 --> 00:43:43.239 go to a job and you say, I'm able to memorize 00:43:43.239 --> 00:43:45.239 the whole manual. Oh, good for you. But can you 00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:48.300 actually process any information and think about 00:43:48.300 --> 00:43:50.679 it? Oh, I can't. OK, let's bring in an external 00:43:50.679 --> 00:43:53.679 consultant who can think on top of just having 00:43:53.679 --> 00:43:55.420 information. And with AI, it's the same thing. 00:43:56.119 --> 00:43:58.019 We now have information and we have something 00:43:58.019 --> 00:44:00.239 that is able to process information. But we now 00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:02.059 need to see, what am I actually going to put 00:44:02.059 --> 00:44:04.079 this on? How am I actually going to make this 00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:06.119 impactful in my organization, in my lifestyle? 00:44:06.619 --> 00:44:09.550 All that. Good example, if you want to diet and 00:44:09.550 --> 00:44:12.329 exercise, go to Chetchi PT. There's like 10 ,000 00:44:12.329 --> 00:44:14.409 diets you can follow. Which one are you going 00:44:14.409 --> 00:44:16.389 to follow? You need to be able to think, okay, 00:44:16.489 --> 00:44:18.590 this is actually the one I like the most and 00:44:18.590 --> 00:44:20.449 better suited for me because then we have that 00:44:20.449 --> 00:44:22.190 ability. You start asking the right questions, 00:44:22.389 --> 00:44:24.349 getting the relevant information and you can 00:44:24.349 --> 00:44:26.530 act upon it. But yeah, it's exciting new world 00:44:26.530 --> 00:44:29.119 out there, I think. Yeah, actually, you know, 00:44:29.320 --> 00:44:32.440 the most exciting use case for me for AI, well, 00:44:32.599 --> 00:44:35.599 one of, is actually this ability to train your 00:44:35.599 --> 00:44:39.250 own critical thinking. Because of the nature, 00:44:39.469 --> 00:44:42.489 like this is exactly working with and not against 00:44:42.489 --> 00:44:45.050 the nature of an LLM, of a large language model, 00:44:45.050 --> 00:44:47.329 right? I talked before that they are probabilistic 00:44:47.329 --> 00:44:49.690 systems. So they are going to come up, if you 00:44:49.690 --> 00:44:52.329 ask it for alternatives, they are going to come 00:44:52.329 --> 00:44:55.550 up with a bunch of alternatives, pros and cons 00:44:55.550 --> 00:44:58.469 that you might not have considered. Like this 00:44:58.469 --> 00:45:00.329 is something that I love to do. For example, 00:45:00.449 --> 00:45:03.050 when I interview a guest or when I'm thinking 00:45:03.050 --> 00:45:05.469 about a topic and I want to do maybe a video 00:45:05.469 --> 00:45:11.429 about it, I go to. I usually go through several 00:45:11.429 --> 00:45:13.809 different models because they have sort of different 00:45:13.809 --> 00:45:16.010 training. So a little bit of a different perspective. 00:45:16.690 --> 00:45:20.250 And I ask it basically to give me like a list 00:45:20.250 --> 00:45:24.289 of 10 unconventional questions for this topic. 00:45:24.730 --> 00:45:27.510 You know, sometimes I get questions that I never 00:45:27.510 --> 00:45:30.769 even like they were not even on my radar. Like 00:45:30.769 --> 00:45:33.670 I did not even conceive of them. And because 00:45:33.670 --> 00:45:35.909 I see that, then I start to think about it. So 00:45:35.909 --> 00:45:39.210 it's actually training me to first ask better 00:45:39.210 --> 00:45:43.250 questions and second to think more deeply, like 00:45:43.250 --> 00:45:45.690 on certain topics. So this is actually a fantastic 00:45:45.690 --> 00:45:49.010 use case for AI. It is. And the question gets 00:45:49.010 --> 00:45:51.510 followed up by another question and another question 00:45:51.510 --> 00:45:53.449 and another question. And if you keep on pursuing 00:45:53.449 --> 00:45:55.869 this, you'll find what you actually need to do 00:45:55.869 --> 00:45:58.690 and the truth of the matter. And I do that with 00:45:58.690 --> 00:46:00.929 so many things. Absolutely crazy. And yeah, just 00:46:00.929 --> 00:46:02.929 works super well for me, I think. I need to find 00:46:02.929 --> 00:46:05.030 a replacement word for super because I use it 00:46:05.030 --> 00:46:07.610 a lot. That's a whole different thing. I mean, 00:46:07.610 --> 00:46:09.630 for you coming in from Germany, probably, yeah, 00:46:09.750 --> 00:46:12.630 super all the time. But here in the UK, I think 00:46:12.630 --> 00:46:14.570 people always look at me funny. Why does it keep 00:46:14.570 --> 00:46:17.239 on saying super? Is it Superman? What's the connection 00:46:17.239 --> 00:46:18.780 here? So yeah, I need to stop with the whole 00:46:18.780 --> 00:46:21.119 super thing. Sarah, if people want to find you 00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:23.619 online, what's the best way of doing so? So they 00:46:23.619 --> 00:46:25.820 can find me on my YouTube channel, which is called 00:46:25.820 --> 00:46:29.880 Polyweb, which is the same of my podcast. Stay 00:46:29.880 --> 00:46:32.480 tuned for season three, which comes out in a 00:46:32.480 --> 00:46:34.840 few weeks. And then they can find me in my social 00:46:34.840 --> 00:46:38.360 media channels. So I'm on TikTok and on Instagram 00:46:38.360 --> 00:46:44.699 at Sarah in wonder tech. Yeah, I told you that 00:46:44.699 --> 00:46:49.539 I felt when I first landed my first job at Zalando 00:46:49.539 --> 00:46:53.519 and I started to work in tech, I felt like Alice 00:46:53.519 --> 00:46:56.780 in Wonderland. So that's why Sarah in WonderTech 00:46:56.780 --> 00:46:59.380 and of course on LinkedIn with my full name, 00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:01.179 Sarahlandi Tortoli. Sorry. Thank you so much 00:47:01.179 --> 00:47:02.760 for your time. It's been a pleasure having you 00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:05.800 here. Thank you, Ricardo. It was a pleasure talking 00:47:05.800 --> 00:47:08.760 to you as well. The podcast is also sponsored 00:47:08.760 --> 00:47:11.469 by Notion .so. Notion is offering six months 00:47:11.469 --> 00:47:14.050 for free for new users. Make sure you check out 00:47:14.050 --> 00:47:16.829 our website, the startupevents .co .uk to read 00:47:16.829 --> 00:47:19.369 them this offer. This podcast is also sponsored 00:47:19.369 --> 00:47:23.070 by startupnetworks .co .uk. Startup Networks, 00:47:23.070 --> 00:47:25.489 it's an online forum where you can find all the 00:47:25.489 --> 00:47:27.730 resources you need to run your startup, from 00:47:27.730 --> 00:47:30.050 grants to investors to tips and tricks on how 00:47:30.050 --> 00:47:32.349 to be successful in your startup. 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