Welcome to the Innovation Conversation, a podcast
about innovators, both in business and real life.
Hosted by myself, Ricardo Rescual and Harry McCona.
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Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Innovation
Conversation. Today we are joined by Diana Floreskov.
Diana, welcome to the podcast. Thanks, Ricardo.
Thanks so much for having me. Diana, would you
like to introduce yourself to the audience, please?
Yeah, of course. So let me see where to start.
I founded a company called Media for Growth about
three years ago. We are a media capital investor.
We work with a lot of exciting publishers and
broadcasters using their media space to support
the next generation of consumer brands. And we
do that by investing the advertising space from
our media partners in these companies in exchange
for ownership. for equity. This allows the brands
that otherwise didn't think about going to TV
or using brand advertising or perhaps experienced
financial challenges to activate this space and
do it in a very optimized way, getting access
to amplified reach and extending that operational
runway. Maybe I can tell you a bit about myself
and how I got into this space. So I'm actually
not a media expert or I didn't come from a traditional
media background. I was, I call myself pretty
much an outlier, but I've seen some of the interesting
challenges and opportunities that space when
I create a media for growth. But I spent the
last 10, 15 years in tech. I worked in gaming
studios to then even having my own attempt at
running my own startup. And so I know exactly
how to launch, well, succeed to an extent and
then fail and close a company. So that to an
extent helped tremendously to what we're doing
today. And then through different experiences,
I got propelled into accelerators and venture
building studios and early stage investors, which
either time We were working with hundreds of
companies on an annual basis. There were networks
of accelerators in many countries that we were
operating. So I've seen a lot of the struggles
that founders were experiencing building their
brand. And here specifically, we're talking about
consumer companies. Not that, of course, there's
always infliction points and challenges for any
company. But when we're talking specifically
about this consumer, Emerging brands that's a
specific sector that is still struggling in terms
of attracting a lot of the PC dollars. Again
as an outlier to to the space of okay well you
are gonna spend forty percent of your. Revenue
and advertising just looking at the companies
that we're working with at a time but you're
really struggling to fundraise try order fundraising
is really slow there must be something out there.
outside of say revenue -based financing options
or venture debt that could propel these companies.
And then I started looking into this space. Obviously
media is a fascinating industry. It's a $750
billion industry and you've got so much innovation
coming into the space from retail media to TV,
which right now is not just linear anymore. So
I was like, okay, How can these brands access
what we call brand advertising, doing it in an
efficient manner? So that's how media for growth
essentially started. There are a lot of funds
doing this already in Europe. So we're not the
first ones. And we also initially build a company
to be an association of media capital funds.
But over the last three years, it's been such
an amazing journey supporting these companies.
We've done multiple programs we have twenty four
companies in our portfolio of alumni in europe
we launch now in the u .s. so it's a very fascinating
place. I think a lot of these things also shaped
me as a person we talked about this just before
we started the program the recording i was born
and raised in romania. If I bring this model
to Romania right now, it's probably not gonna
fly. I think there's very different dynamics,
as you know, between East and Western countries.
Very early on, I left and I went to study in
the UK and then I moved to different countries
and been exposed to different experiences, now
sitting in New York talking to you. And yeah,
I think all these different, you know, countries,
cultures, we talked about languages and how people,
you know, react to when they speak, you know,
somebody's language and how they think really,
really shaped what we're doing today at Media
for Growth and also the ambition to support.
these companies cross borders and being a global
platform for media capital investments. Did you
find many differences when you moved from Romania
to the UK, but then also from the business perspective,
from the UK to the US? Were there many differences
or actually businesses, business type of thing?
No, I think there's definitely differences, although
I think a lot of people assume and to a certain
extent, rightfully so, there's obviously similarities
between US cultures and UK and Australian, right?
Well, one thing is probably the language, but
then leaving that aside, I think business -wise,
it's a different culture out here. And I've only
been, I mean, I lived in Austin, speaking of
countries and moving places. I lived in Austin,
Texas for about six months back in 2019. A very
fascinating place to be back then. A lot of people
were moving down from California. Yeah, exactly.
It was like becoming a tech hub. I was there
again, well, basically, six years forward for
South by just two weeks ago. And fascinating
how many consumer funds have been established
in the meantime, how many more consumer companies.
But then I think the one difference between US
and UK, especially if we're talking about this
industry and money and venture and so on. It's
a market that has, I think people move much faster.
Valuations are much higher. Minimum ticket sizes
are much higher. We see companies even coming
to us, approaching us from a media standpoint,
pre -revenue, raising $5 million on a valuation
of like, I don't know, 20, 30 million. I mean,
you know this, right? Yeah, that doesn't happen
in Europe. You don't get that in Europe, right?
It's a very different... Dynamic i think investors
are also a lot less risk adverse in this market
and then if i'm talking more specific about media
and media partners so broadcasters publishers
there's definitely a lot of. Enthusiasm and openness
to start and to try innovation models like media
capsule europe is. interestingly enough, actually
leading the space. So there's a lot of funds
doing this in Europe, and that's where it started.
But it's still rather slow at gaining, let's
say, mass adoption or trying to convince some
of the funds to do a lot more. And what I mean
by a lot more is spending more, right? I mean,
here we have partners that spend 3 % of their
revenue. on just media capital investments, we're
talking about over $100 million a year, right?
That's not, yeah, it's hard to compare, right?
It's a bigger market. I think there's just a
different appetite for risk and for doing business.
And everyone is like, let's do business, you
know? It's very, very focused, very... efficient
in that way. And I think culturally as well between
UK and US, people are a lot more direct here.
It's something that I usually kind of I relate
to, probably because of my Eastern European roots
in a way, we tend to be a lot more direct. As
you know, sitting in London, that's not always
the case. If you're talking to me i'm always
super direct which is a good thing i think the
people you know i guess fellow brits right friends
that you probably know or yeah so it's just yeah.
I think yeah this this plus and minuses everywhere
but i'm also trying to adjust to so one thing
that i was actually told recently. is that we
are not bold enough in the statements that we
make here in the US. I'm like, what do you mean?
And you raise $30 million to invest in these
consumer brands. I'm like, yeah, but we've got
a long way to go. We're probably going to go
up to 50 by the end of the year. In the UK, you
don't really brag about these things. You're
like, OK, you don't. And here, yeah, it's a very
different culture. It's very loud. People are
like, yeah, we've done this. You know, but equally,
they are very more open to talk about failure.
You know, this is how we felt. That's why we
felt. And it's a good thing. You know, people
look at this. This is a good thing over here.
You cannot fail. You need to be successful. And
I think the UK, they kind of get they're doing
a little bit better than most other countries,
especially in Europe. But if you fail, let's
say in Germany, it's the end of the world. I
mean, you probably know this better than I do,
but it's horrible. You cannot be a successful
businessman and have several failures. No, no,
no. They all need to be massive successes. And
that kind of stops people from innovating and
people from taking risks. I agree. I was curious.
I mean, the transition, obviously, we discussed
it. On a personal level, was there anything that
really shocked you apart from the way that they're
obviously more direct and more willing to take
risks? Is there anything that you really don't
think I can do this or actually I'm very comfortable
here with the final speak my language? Here in
the US, right? Moving out here. I would leave
politics aside because I think we don't want
to make this podcast about it. And also because
I think there's a lot of negative headlines in
the news already, as they are. I think we don't
want to add to that. Something shocking, I think.
I wouldn't say shocking. I think in a way, it's
also probably just a really nice surprise about,
I think, the openness of media companies when
it comes to, I mean, again, we're a fairly new
brand in the US, right? We don't really have
an established presence here. We're building
that. And yes, we've got this fantastic win and
closing the initial close of 30 million and having
two fantastic media companies as our LPs. But
then US is such a huge market, you know, so fragmented
when it comes to media. And even so you get into,
I mean, I get into all sorts of, I get into meetings
with like C -level people sitting down and listening
to you and really thinking about this model.
And the surprise, which is not shocking, but
it's a nice surprise is that we haven't really
received a no in terms of investing with us,
but rather, is it a good time now? Or, you know,
there are always companies that are more innovative
or like they want to be the, you know, the kind
of the early adopters, right? Clearly companies
like Sinclair or Televisa that have done these
investments and they invest with us. But there's
other publishers that understand the value of
this. And they just probably just want to see,
okay, I want to, I want to see a bit more traction.
I want to see how this model evolves before I
kind of like dip my toes, which is good and bad,
right? You don't want to wait too long because
then it gets all. But I think it's been really
fascinating compared to, let's say UK or other
markets in Europe that it's been a lot slower.
The adoption is a lot slower and it doesn't always
make it to the corporate agenda. It's like, oh
yeah, it's a, it's, you know, something that
we think about where here is like, okay, how
can, how do we diversify revenue? Right? How
do we accelerate growth? Everyone is about growth,
business. And as long as you can explain, articulate
how you're going to make business, how you're
going to drive business for that company, then
you're basically kind of in the game, right?
So I think it's been, it's a very transactional,
but very useful culture if that's what you're
in for, right? If you're here to do business,
then people are down for doing business. Do you
think there's a bigger desire for growth overall
in the U .S. compared to the UK, for example?
Yeah, I think that mindset has never changed.
I think the mindset has always been with the
American culture and it's always about growth.
A lot more growth. Although we're seeing obviously,
I mean, growth also comes from very, you know,
interesting places right now. I mean, we're looking
at a lot of Australian companies, for example.
I think there's a lot of Australian... very interesting
Australian listed companies actually launching
in the U .S. I think we're also seeing a lot
of growth from, you know, let's say France or
Germany or Central Europe, Poland, you know,
that is becoming more of a tech hub. But I think
it's, yeah, nothing changed, I think, in terms
of the growth mindset that you have in the U
.S. So would you advise like a startup to move
to the U .S. if they want to get bigger? It's
a tough question because it doesn't suit everyone.
And I think, especially for what we do with media
for growth, one approach that we would take,
because we do support a lot of international
companies coming to the US. In fact, majority
of our conversations and pipeline originates
out of Europe, because that's where we did most
of the work. We normally see companies thinking
about US and then going to New York first. That's
kind of like For them, U .S. is New York, especially
as a consumer brand, right? That's the first
stop into the U .S. I think it depends on, I
think a lot of companies make that mistake too
early on into their journey and don't have sufficient
funding or branding expertise or people on the
ground to make it happen. And the other danger
is to try to assume that U .S. is one country.
Which, yeah, I mean, it is obviously, but it's
not at the same time, different cultures. Culturally
speaking, I'm also learning this myself, right?
I think culturally speaking, the way to look
at it is almost like three different sort of
parts of US. You've got East Coast, West Coast,
and then kind of the Southern part, which is
also culturally different. But I also think that
the way to, yeah, trying to conquer US, even
if we're thinking about an advertising campaign,
um all at once it's um it wouldn't be just a
mistake i think would be very very reckless so
the way we're looking at this and i would probably
advise a company if they are really sold in the
u .s and they have customers in the u .s and
they're trying to build a presence in the u .s
try to look at it and do it almost market by
market and we normally have a lot of our media
properties and exposure in east coast and west
coast and i think that's actually a really good
test and launch pad, right? Try New York, try
in the market, do that, you know, experiment
and then try to scale faster into other states.
Um, but yeah, I, I think there's a lot of interesting
places outside of us where a lot of people, a
lot of startups go to right now. I think there's
a lot of, um, interest on in Southeast Asia,
Singapore. Obviously, Middle East has been also
growing a lot. India. as well. India, although
it has of course challenges like culturally speaking
and the language is such a, you know, it's a
tough one to crack. There's so many dialects,
but yeah, although we still see probably three
in five calls with companies, they do want to
go to the U .S. That's the big goal. Yeah, I
meet a lot of people like that. Their main goal
is how do we go from the UK to the U .S.? Because
obviously, People are just aware that investors
are putting more money. It's a bigger market.
And if you manage to get into that market and
manage to get, let's say, be very successful
in New York, you're actually doing better than
if you were successful in the UK, for example,
because it's just a much bigger market, a lot
more people. But yeah, it's always a challenge,
isn't it? Especially for early stage startups
like how do I even get started? It's a gamble.
Do you think, you know, from the investor perspective,
you think US investors are open to listen to
European companies? overall, they actually sit
down and say, you know, it's a good idea. Let
me put some money in, or they actually prefer
if you just move everything to the US, then just
operate in the US. I see. I think there's kind
of this two, probably two sides to this. I think
there's a lot of investors that are definitely
looking at innovation coming into the US market.
So very open to discussing to European companies,
especially when it comes to companies that come
with heavy IP, deep tech. There's a lot of, you
know, uh, technologies originating out of the
European market. And naturally, as you said,
a lot of these companies are drawn into the U
S because of the investors, whether the investors
would invest in or ask the company to relocate
to the U S I think it's probably right to assume
that, yeah, most of them would, would ask the
company to probably relocate and have changed
her quarters to the U S. Um, I would also think
as a brand, why wouldn't you? If that's your
big market, and in the end you're thinking about
where you're going to scale, like whatever technology
you have or consumer product you have, if that's
your biggest market, then that's probably where
you should be. Unless there are specific reasons,
sitting in the UK right now, if you have UK listeners,
we have a lot of interesting schemes for investors
like SEIS and EIS. That, of course, comes with
its own sets of limitations. You've got to have
the company headquartered in the UK. But you've
got to put things into balance, right? Do you
want to raise, I don't know, five million through
EIS and have the company in the UK? But it's
going to take a lot longer, perhaps, or it's
a slow process for you. Or if you want to move
to the US and flip the headquarter to the US
and have access to multiple investors, if that's
the case. Is there any such scheme in the U .S.
or something similar? I think there is actually.
I don't want to butcher his name, but there is
a scheme for small businesses. It's not as attractive
as EIS and SEIS. I think investors get a certain
percentage, but I believe it's not in a form
of tax relief. I think there is another incentive
for them. But there is one scheme for, I think,
call for small businesses investment scheme.
I think EIS and SCIS has been a game changer
for the UK startup ecosystem. We are actually
SCIS qualified. The company is only three years
old. We're actually, we still have the SCIS allowance
and then rolling into EIS. And I've seen markets,
I think Poland actually try to replicate that
scheme. about four or five years ago. So a lot
of more markets are starting to notice what the
UK has done. I think it's now coming up to 10
years or so since the scheme has been in place.
It's a really good scheme as well. I talked with
a lot of UK companies that want to move to the
UK precisely because of the scheme, because the
risk for investors in their native country is
always very high. Whereas in the UK, of course,
they can offset a little bit of that risk by
being part of the SEIS scheme. I was actually
in a lecture yesterday with the former Chancellor
Philip Hammond and he was saying one of the biggest
issues the UK has or is struggling with is when
a company reaches a certain size, series B, series
C, they normally try and go to the US market
and not stay in London anymore because it's not
going to be as profitable. What do you think
Europe needs to do to actually have the company
stay here instead of moving to the US? I'm sure
there's a lot of things. Yeah, we could probably
do a whole webinar just on that. I think there's
so many pillars to this from changing investors
mindset to governments being a lot more bullish
to I mean, when was it, I think, a few weeks
ago that China, the Chinese government announced,
I think, over a hundred billion dollar fund to
invest in AI. And yeah, that just completely,
you know, just puts a lot of the Western countries
sort of like a shame when it comes to the level
of capital deployed into new technologies. I
think it's also that When you reach that stage
and depending on what market like what kind of
if you especially if you are a deep tech company
For example, or if you're a if you're building
a medical device, right? There's a lot of funding
that you also need to get started at first Which
is not that easy to to access sometimes in Europe
There's a lot of schemes that are supporting
this right as you know, there's EIF as well the
European funds that has been backing a lot of
different initiatives, accelerators, and so on.
I think a lot of the investors in Western countries
should, well, it's easier to say it should replicate
the mentality and what we have here in the US.
But I also think we're actually getting there.
I think if I look at the level of the size of
the investments, or the valuations. That gap
is still a gap, but that gap is starting to close
a lot more. There's actually a lot of interesting
crunch based reports that have been published
which actually show that compared to 10 years
ago, where you see a massive discrepancy between
how much a fund would invest in a Series A here
compared to the U .S., right now that gap is
basically closing. I think that what I see a
lot of companies is struggling even if I look
at media for growth, we are a company we're essentially
bootstrapped. We have just very strategic advisors
that have been, that are invested into the business.
And if I look at the boards that I'm running,
we're actually, there's no, we don't have, and
the companies are caught in the UK, we don't
actually have. a British person on the board.
We're a very diverse team and I really love that,
but it's actually all the investors and the support
has actually come outside of the UK, from France
and Germany to having US advisors. And this is
something that looking through cap tables and
so on, I see a lot of high network individuals
and investors in UK companies that are non -UK,
right? So how do we get - Yeah, how do we get
more UK investors, you know, in in this business?
So yeah, I think there's a lot a lot of different
strategic pillars that have to be have to be
activated. Interesting. No, I'm curious. One
thing because obviously there's a lot of startups
listening to this. I'm curious on your own journey
and how you managed to move from one thing to
the other and then being the place you are right
now. I mean, it must have been quite hard to
do all that. So, you know, what do you do when
you're doing things that get hard? What keeps
you pushing forward? Right. Well, probably the
first thing is to just, yeah, I'm sure we all
have, you know, those really low days, right,
in the journey, especially when you're building
a company. I think the hardest thing For us,
for me, when I started the business was, well,
there's many challenges and I think all of them
kind of combined created this interesting storm.
One, you're in a space that naturally is challenged
and challenging. I can't think of any industry
that is more, being more disrupted than media
right now, anywhere you look. Whether we're talking
about just TV and then TV itself is disrupted,
or if you look at the broader media landscape,
there's so much disruption coming from all different
angles, retail media, measurements. If you are
a CMO of a consumer brand, I mean, those guys,
I think they're having the toughest time right
now trying to create an omnichannel strategy
and trying to make the case for marketing in
the boardroom. That was one challenge for me.
I think initially just kind of wrapping your
head around the media space. Another challenge
was starting a business also with, you know,
if you are bootstrapped and companies listening
to this, they probably know exactly what I'm
referring to, but obviously you're always kind
of in that kind of cash preservation mode and
it's good because you learn to do a lot more
with less and you get a lot of resilience and
you build a company which is I think fundamentally
are more stable and a lot more healthy. I think
healthier in terms of reaching profitability
as opposed to having a, you know, building a
company at an idea stage, already being funded,
having a few millions in the bank, and then you
have a different kind of appetite for risk and
probably a different way of the way you're looking
at spending. So that was for us a challenge,
but also a good necessary challenge. I feel this
company completely bootstrapped. you know, up
to this point, we still haven't raised extended
funding. Which is quite impressive, by the way.
Well done. That's quite an achievement. Yeah,
it's good. But also like going back to that resilience
point, you get to a point where you are being
in a market like the US, right? Speaking of advice,
you definitely want to have enough capital to
support growth, because here it's not about Do
you want to grow 5 -10 % a year and what kind
of business do you want to build? Do you want
to be in a space where you grow sadly? You know,
you're kind of, of course, profitable, you don't
take extended money, and perhaps that's fine.
You know, a lot of businesses do that depending
on what you do, or do you want to build, you
want to grow, you know, 200x a year, and you
hire a specific exit right within five years,
and then you need a lot of growth, you need a
lot of capital to grow. So that may change for
us as well, just to mention, because I think
being in this market, it's a huge... opportunity.
We are in a space that is very new. And we are
at a very interesting pivotal stage with with
media capital. We're getting a lot of interest.
And I think what we need to do right now, I mean,
this clear product market fit, we just need to
double down and grow fast. Right? That's the
stage we're at. And then I think in terms of
challenges as well, it's just I mean, consumer
brands, I think because of all the different
challenges we're seeing in the media space, and
also the fact that a lot of these companies were
challenged when it comes to fundraising. You
probably see this too, but in the last five,
10 years, we've got this wave of D2C companies,
brands, that started a consumer company at a
fractional cost compared to, let's say, the previous
ones, the decade before, because there's a lot
of technology and a lot of resources out there
that allows you to start with a lot less funding.
But then what happens, they're grown on digital
channels, relying 100 % on Facebook and Google
and Amazon. And then when we come into play and
we're trying to make the case for brand advertising,
which has always been the case for, I mean, a
lot of the unicorns out there, that's essentially
how they propel business, right, to TV and mass
channels. They're like, oh, we don't need that.
You know, it's always a tough conversation to
have. because there's a lot of education that
needs to be done, right? Why you need to run
advertising in your media mix. So all of these
different challenges, I think made it, we achieved
a lot in the last three years. You know, we've
done a lot of programs. We worked with 24 companies.
We raised this initial close of 30 million. We
already started deploying, but it's still, we're
still having these conversations. So we're not
even making the case for media capital. We have
to make the case for brand advertising before
we get into an investment conversation. But it's
a very, it's a challenge, but also very interesting
space to be. I think there's a lot of innovation
that is going to happen not only in the media,
but also with this model itself. And also if
you think about it, it's probably a lot better
tracking as well. Cause I'm thinking the type
of data and the type of feedback you get from
consumers on your phone. Nowadays, your television
actually gives you the same type of feedback
as well, right? Cause they're smart TVs. They
connected all the time. The amounts of data that
captures insane. It's absolutely ridiculous.
Um, yeah. You know, if I'm, yeah, which is scary.
I actually have a very old television, which
doesn't do any of that. Doesn't connect to the
internet apart from just going on Netflix. And
that's kind of it. Uh, But yeah, if you buy something
from Samsung, for example, they have so many
points that pick up on you. They know exactly
who you are. And then all the ads after you watch
television for a bit, they all completely retargeted
just for you. It's a fascinating world. We were
discussing this. It is. And you're perfectly
right. And this is actually one of the probably
preconceptions that TV is just linear. Right.
And then, yes, there are challenges with measuring.
But even within a linear environment, you still
have a lot of innovation and measurement platforms
that allow you to track and attribute the back,
the revenue and the success to that TV campaign.
But then you've got a whole realm of connected
TV, addressable TV, which is very much closer
to how you would probably measure your programmatic
advertising. But you mentioned, yeah, there's
a lot of data points. I think this is the challenge,
right, for a lot of the CMOs. How do you What
data do you wanna measure, or rather what data
points do you want to track? What do you wanna
measure and how are you gonna analyze the data
to give you actual meaningful results and insights?
Because the more data you collect, I think you'll
find yourself in that conundrum of like, what
kind of data point should I listen to? And it's
tough when you've got TV and digital channels
on the side, and then you bring your out -of
-home partner. And then you're like, OK, so how
am I going to build this measurement strategy
across channels to have an only channel approach?
So yeah, it's a continuous battle, I think. Ideally
with unlimited budgets, right? That's the speed
forward you want to be. I have unlimited budgets.
I can spend in anything. This is what we're trying
to also achieve here, an address. Because a lot
of the companies that come to us is because they
want to optimize their marketing spending. So
in the end, that's what we do, right? By investing
advertising space and predominantly TV, we move
the marketing costs from their PNL into their
balance sheet. So that allows them to extend
the runway. In some cases, they might actually
reallocate budgets to other operational costs
or product growth or other specific key areas
of the business. But also it's not just about
the financial, it's also about the expertise,
right? We tend to be quite a hands -on investor
when it comes to deploying media. We're not hands
-on in terms of, we're a minority investor, so
we don't really take board seats. Probably, in
some cases, we might look at observer seats.
But when you come to us and if you're getting
an investment from Media4Growth, I mean, that's
just not enough for you to ensure a successful
campaign, right? Then you've got to look into,
okay, who's going to do the media plan? Who's
going to be doing your creatives? How are you
going to measure, right, as per your point? And
then on top of that, you're probably fundraising
as well. So all these different things, rather
than letting the founder do it on their own,
we have the specialized growth springs that we
run multiple times a year. We do the investments,
and then they get exposed to a whole set of partners.
So we have, for example, a dedicated media planner
in -house. We're just trying to address, you
know, some of these challenges. How do you create
a media plan? How do you measure what you want
to look out for? What are your objectives? Where
you should be, where you should be spending your
money, right? And how much. So yeah, I think
it's, uh, it's not enough to just think about
just budgets and money, but it's how do you actually
want to do it in a very optimal way? And what
are the areas of this whole campaign do you need
to get covered, right? In order to sustain that.
Momentum strategies as important as ever and
then if people want to reach out to you and find
out more about the amazing things you do, how
what's the best way of doing that? So I'm on
LinkedIn. We publish a lot of research, a lot
of case studies, a lot of investments that we
do, so LinkedIn is probably best. But also, if
any of them are interested in either knowing
more about our investment thesis or just the
model itself, they can reach me on my email address
as well. So it's diana at mediaforgrowth .co.
If not, then yeah, LinkedIn is always a great
place. You can just drop me a message. Dan, it's
been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast.
Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so
much. Thanks, Ricardo. It's been a pleasure as
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