Welcome to the Innovation Conversation, a podcast
about innovators, both in business and real life.
Hosted by myself, Ricardo Rescual and Harry McCona.
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Hi, and welcome to another episode of The Innovation
Conversation. Today we are joined by Lorraine
Cartland. Lorraine, welcome to the podcast. Thank
you very much, Ricardo. I'm delighted to be here.
It's a pleasure having you here. Lorraine, would
you like to introduce yourself to the audience,
please? Well, my whole background, my career
has been around building brands to drive growth.
And that's from working with small early stage
businesses. through to large enterprise organizations.
The fundamental principles are the same. It's
just the nuances and depth which you go into,
but I have a really strong purpose -driven philosophy
about making brand strategy accessible to more
leanly resourced businesses so they can still
build robust, successful brands, even without
big marketing teams. So you kind of help them,
I guess, create their own story and put it out
there for people to be attracted to it. Yeah,
it's about building out a really robust brand
strategy. There's key elements you include in
doing that, mapping that out effectively so you've
got a really strong north star to reference off,
and then looking at how you deploy that really
effectively over the relevant channels. And of
course, with early stage businesses, you're typically
iterating, you're moving fast, you're developing,
so you've got to have some flexibility around
that. But you've also got to have a strong baseline
that anchors you back to what it is you're building
and who your target audience is and what your
revenue model is. So there are the fundamentals
and then it's right. Well, how do we, in order
to be a powerful brand, you've got to have some
strong differentiating factors. So having real
clarity or getting clarity around, well, what
is our value proposition? What are our core differentiators?
And not losing sight of the fact, particularly,
With say tech businesses, they tend to be very
feature benefits driven a lot of the time, but
you cannot lose sight of the fact that 60 % of
branding is driven by emotion and 40 % by product
or service. So you've got to understand what
are the underlying drivers about what it is or
the reason why a customer might or prospect might
buy what you have to offer. And what is the big
difference it's going to make in their life,
whether you're selling B2C or B2B? And then you
build on that, but you've got to have under it.
So it's not about you. The first thing your customer
is going to look at is what's in it for me and
what's the compelling reason to buy and do I
get it really quickly? And how am I so much better
than anything else that might be competing in
that space in the marketplace? How do you get
started with all this? How did I get started?
Oh gosh. I guess I started off my career working
in agencies then I worked for a while in television.
And then I worked a lot with consumer oriented
brands before moving much more into the B2B context.
And if you're working with consumer brands and
you're working in a retail environment, you have,
it's a very cutthroat environment. You have a
very short life. If you can't sell very fast
and capture the attention of the consumer within
nine seconds and convince them of what it is
that's really compelling. and why you're the
best option and you fit within what they're prepared
to spend. You're going to be delisted within
two to three weeks. And also bringing any physical
product to market typically has a capital outlay
that's very different for building maybe a tech
brand and the distribution behind all of that.
And then the whole story around the proposition
of what it is, what you're going to sell. That's,
that's what got me into the whole area of building
brands to drive growth. And then diversicribe
working across, I pretty much have worked across
all sectors at this stage, except for the few
that I've electively decided not to for whatever
ethical reasons, but pretty much all sectors
at this stage. So the principles are the same.
But the nuances of what drives the decision making
and also cultural, the filters of when you're
living in a global world. So a lot of the communications
I will be involved in is very multicultural.
So I'm just standing the drivers, whether you're
a product offering, and I use that in the broad
sense of whether it's a SaaS or a tech product
versus a physical product. because you're still
productizing your offering, but the drivers behind
buying will, the subtleties of that will vary
depending on also the cultural reference point,
because that becomes the immediate filter through
which people see things and how they make buying
decisions. So all of that impacts in terms of
how you sell what it is you have to offer. When
you're building a startup, I'm sure you meet
a lot of early stage founders. What advice would
you give them in terms of the branding and how
to position themselves in the market? The first
thing I'd start with is, and this might sound
like a corny or coined phrase, but step into
the customer's shoes. What are the psychological
drivers behind why they are potentially going
to buy what you have to offer? And the first
thing, human nature, when that person even notices
what you have to offer, first of all, you've
even got to get their attention in a very noisy
world. So you've got to break through that noise.
And the first thing subconsciously they're going
to ask us in a nanosecond is, what's in for me?
And you've got to have that front and center
really strong and compelling. The level at which
you drive that depends again, what kind of brand
you're building. So understanding the psychological
drivers and the challenges around, are you solving
a massive problem? Are you disrupting something
in the brand? Are you selling something that
is instant gratification from a customer point
of view? All of those have different drivers.
So really being clear about that. The next thing
is your gap analysis. So that, you know, everybody
who's building a business understands looking
for gaps and opportunities in the market. And
so coming back to those fundamental principles,
remember a brand is 60 % about emotions, a 40
% about the physical product or service, physical
or non -physical. So what are the emotional drivers
around perception? Because perception is everything.
Consistency and perception is everything. So
you can actually potentially build a very robust,
a very strong brand, but it may not actually
be the best, say, piece of tech in the marketplace
because you have convinced the marketplace with
the emotional drivers and understanding what
it is and how people make choices. So that then
comes back to, right, you've done your background,
your baseline, you've done your analysis, you
can see where there are gaps and opportunities.
Then mapping out your different target audience,
those purchase personas. Every business has its
core target audience. And then it has its secondary
or third. Is it the core target audience that's
the most profitable? They have your whole business
built around. core target audience as it's perceived,
but actually your, your greatest level of revenue
is coming from your secondary audience. So examples
of that per se would be two very different examples
I'll give you here for context. So if you take
say Harley -Davidson, I'm picking brands here
that everybody knows. So if you take Harley -Davidson
and you have that classic cliche of what the
Harley -Davidson biker looks like, you know,
the leathers, perhaps a little bit scruffy out
on the wide open road, but actually. The greatest
area of revenue is actually coming from the senior
executive who, you know, moves out, he's in corporate
enterprise world and at the weekend he hangs
up the suit and he's putting on, you know, the
leathers and he's getting out in the open road.
That's actually where the greatest profit drives
from, not from that core audience that you perceive
it to be. You come back to Apple, a trillion
dollar brand. That started off its whole existence
around the whole professional, creative target
audience and it's built its whole brand around
the association with that really professional
creative sector user. But the reality of it is
it's actually not, it started off as a professional
sector brand offering, but actually all its revenue
driver comes from a consumer audience base. So,
but if it didn't have the cache of what it's
associated with that professional audience, it
would not translate so well from a consumer because
Cause you are paying a premium when you buy any
Apple product, whether it's a laptop or a phone,
you are paying a price premium and it commands
that premium because of the associations with
the brand. And that's before we get into all
the technical stuff. And then, you know, you've
got your lovers and haters of, I mean, I don't
know how many times I've delivered working sessions
or I might be delivering a keynote and I might
ask the question. So can I go show a hands who's
Android here? Who's an Android fan and who's
an iPhone fan? And the room is typically equally
divided. And this brings me on to another point.
If you're building a strong brand, you can't
be just vanilla in the middle. You've got to
have something that is, again, a little bit triggering.
So if you take, say, even Apple and Android,
you will have people who absolutely can't stand
Apple as a universal product and they don't like
it at all. And then you'll have equally the absolute
opposite where somebody works in Every product
has integrated. It's so easy to use. They're
not techie, but they're just die hard fans and
they wouldn't entertain using anything else.
So a brand to be compelling, if you're building
a brand, got to be able to be prepared to hang
your flag on some issue or topic that's going
to draw a little bit of strong emotional feeling
in your target audience. If they're feeling a
little bit benign and it's safe down the middle
of the road. Well, you're just going to blend
in with everything else. So strong brands typically
have an emotional driver that's relevant and
compelling from a target audience perspective.
I'm thinking about a case that I actually just
found out in the news. If you heard about that
American company, Liquid Debt, so they literally
sell canned water. So instead of selling water
in plastic, in plastic bottles, they sell it
in well, cans, metal cans, because you can recycle
as many times as you want, it's actually better
for the environment, right? They had a gigantic
success in the US, then they roll it out in the
UK, massive failure. No one's buying something
called liquid debt, because why would you buy
canned water, right? Might as well buy a clear
bottle of water. What do you do when that happens
as a company? Like when your message resonates
in one market, but completely fails in the other
market? That's really interesting. First of all,
it comes back to, and I've worked in multiple
different countries and jurisdictions and helped
develop brands. That comes back to, and I'd be
really interested in seeing that as a case study
as to the details as to why it failed in the
UK market versus the US. I'd be really interested
to know. That's intriguing. And I can think of
all sorts of reasons why I would prefer to potentially
drink out of, if it's like a stainless steel
can. versus plastic and it's not just environmental
it'll be all health as well but it also comes
back to how well did they actually research that
sector and that market because you can't assume
just because they speak the same language but
the cultural there's huge cultural differences
between the UK and the US. And the US is like
a continent. It's so big and each state has variables.
And then if you're looking at the UK, well, yes,
you've got, you know, the England, Scotland,
Wales, and then you've also got, even if you
just take England, you've got the variations
between North and South or Middle England. So
understanding those regional differences culturally
is huge. And then if you haven't done that, you
don't understand, well, what are the cultural
differences around how people make decisions.
I mean, Ireland is an English speaking world,
but the difference between the UK and Ireland
is quite significant culturally too. So you couldn't
assume Ireland is actually quite an Americanized
country. So they could have potentially dipped
their toe into Europe and might have had a bit
more success in the much smaller market of Ireland
because it's more Americanized than the UK. Even
though there's a huge proximity. between Ireland
and the UK. But again, it comes back to understanding
what are the drivers around what really, and
then if you understand the drivers, then you
build your messaging around that. And it comes
back to also your value proposition. How does,
how is that relevant or otherwise to your primary
target audience? So it's really a case of changing
your value proposition, changing your message,
depending on the market you're going after, right?
Cause it cannot be one size fits all type of
approach. You can never be one size fits all,
but the core purpose around what you're building
and the values sitting behind that should actually
fundamentally be the same. But it's a case of
how you adapt the nuances to the relevant market.
And then also it can be a case of, is that product
even going to fly in that market? From a simple
point of view, what stage of development is that
market at in terms of its receptiveness or readiness
to actually want to purchase something like that?
Because markets can be at different stages of
development. Like I've worked in markets that
you would describe as emerging economies. So
their readiness to purchase something would be
very different because their buying power is
different. Or there would be say parts and parts
of Europe that are much more digitized, much
more tech savvy compared to others. So their
readiness to engage and buy into something will
be very different to other markets. Europe's
a tapestry. Each country is very, very different.
It comes back to the old fashioned thing of doing
your due diligence before you try and launch
to market because it can become a very expensive
mistake. But you can also iterate. So the big
upside if you're selling something that's tech
related is you can iterate and test cheaply in
the marketplace before you fully invest. Whereas
when you bring a physical product to market,
it's much more capital heavy launching into market.
But again, test small, fail fast before you go
out there and do a big massive splurge. And that
would be a fundamental principle you'd apply
across any product development. Can you, as a
brand, can you fail publicly? own up to that
and actually carry on after that. I'm thinking,
for example, that there's a brilliant case, a
brilliant example in history, which is the new
Coke in the 80s. In the US, they launched, that
was the old Coke that everyone loved. And then
because Pepsi was growing in marketing penetration,
they said, oh, let's launch a new Coke. And everyone
hated the new Coke. And there were people going
on sports games saying, you know, I hate the
new Coke, stuff like that. Can you own up to
that mistake or do you just quietly withdraw
from the market, whatever you put out there?
I think it depends on the kind of, well, I know
it depends on the kind of mistake you make. So
if you're making a mistake that's politically
very sensitive or culturally very sensitive,
then it becomes more difficult to come back from
that. Or if you somehow insult your target audience
base, it's very difficult to come back from that.
But if you're making, if you're making that kind
of mistake, yes, I do think you can come back
from it. It also comes back to, and this comes
back to having your mitigation plans in place
around your communications. Having thought through
if we mess up, how are we going to respond quickly
as opposed to finding yourself in the headlights
under serious pressure and you can't think straight
because you're going, holy, you know, oh, my
goodness, we just made an absolute shocker here.
And of course, any of us under pressure, we don't
think as clearly as we do and we have real time
for reflection. So when you're building any brand.
always have given some support for when the proverbial
might happen, hits the fan and you have got to
have a something, at least have something in
place, even if you have to quickly iterate or
adapt around that. So yes, you can recover, but
a lot of that comes back to is how engaged, how
active are you in the marketplace in terms of
communication at a grassroots level with your
target audience? And if you have a level of transparency
and open communication at a leadership level
and you are open and forthcoming with your target
audience, then you have a buffer of tolerance
around when you make mistakes. But if you're
trying to ignore it and pretend it hasn't happened,
you're not going to do well because particularly
on platforms like X, which dominant platform.
It's just going to be out there so fast before
you know it in nanoseconds. It's very hard to
come back from that because you've got to own
up on your mistakes. I'm thinking about like
a very well -known British brand, Land Rover,
right? Amazing cars. They've been in the market
for decades, but you cannot get one of those
cars and actually getting insured any time anywhere
in London because they just refuse to do so because
they keep on getting stolen because they've built
something that actually doesn't work, which is
a killer. Well, it works quite well, even for
the criminals. Now, how do you own up to that
mistake and how do you say, you know what, we'll
continue building really good cars, but there's
a slight issue. We're kind of trying to fix it.
So just bear with us. How do you ask consumers
or customers to continue working with the brand
until they fix an issue? That's really challenging.
I think you've got to have a level of transparency
and you've got to bring your audience with you
on that journey. And you've got to say, listen,
we're at this. We're trying to deal with the
problem. You keep your audience, your target
audience up to date. I've been on the receiving
end of when tech falls over badly. And it is
a critical element of functionality within the
business. And when you're not hearing stuff,
whether it's via X or via email, you're not being
kept updated, then your confidence dies very,
very quickly. But if you're being kept in the
loop, regular updates, we haven't got there,
but we're there. We're expecting within the next
few hours to have this or in the next few months.
Then you are still going to maintain some level
of confidence in the business because you are
showing up with a level of integrity. So you're
holding on to that confidence. But if you're
not communicating, it doesn't matter what you're
selling. Once you don't have credibility and
you lose confidence and the market lose confidence
in what you have to offer. So Land Rover is a
brand with a huge legacy and it has a lot of,
and I know a lot of Land Rover owners who drive
and just absolutely love their cars. And there
are other very prestigious car brands in the
marketplace, but they are not the most reliable.
Statistically speaking, but they are still loved
by their owners and who are prepared to pay a
premium for them. It comes back to your open
communications and kind of going, right, we have
this problem, this is where I'm fixing it and
we should be coming around to it and have our
customers in a better place. What about companies
like let's say Ryanair? Cause we're talking about
open communication and being on Twitter all the
time and stuff like that. Cause let's be honest,
Ryanair, we know they offer, you know, a very
cheap, no -frills flight experience and they
keep on advertising it. Speaking of Ryanair,
things are going badly. That was not... The good
thing is we can actually edit this bit out, although
it would be quite funny just to leave it on.
Okay. I mean, looking at how bad the company
is and how it collapses. Oh, hold on. Let me
actually reposition this every so slightly. So
it's the same angle and I think it's a bit too
high, but that's okay. Now I'm just thinking
a company is like Ryanair, right? They own up
to the fact that it's not the best flight experience,
that people sit in seats that don't have a window
seat, actually quite on the contrary, literally
have the bulkhead in front of them. So is that,
is that the correct way of dealing with it? Just
telling people that, you know, that's what you
should expect. When I think about Ryanair and
its trajectory, not only of growth, but as a
brand from where it's come from, there's a reason
why it's. Europe's biggest airline and it is
the most successful airline by a lot of counts
But it comes back to that Marmite factor or that
love it or hate it factor Marmite being a really
British product that there's no middle ground
on not everybody knows about it But if you haven't
heard about Marmite look it up and it's again
a love it or hate and they've actually developed
the whole brand around that love it or hate it
Relationship. So for those of you don't know
go have a look. It's a great reference point
if you're building a brand but coming back to
Ryanair So Ryanair is a very successful no -frills
operation and it effectively in Europe established
that no -frill flight model very successfully.
And it again, it has, I know people who will
not step on board and others who are huge fans
or others who just kind of go, yeah, I know what
it is, but it gets me there and I don't have
to spend an arm and leg to get there and I don't
need to have the courtesy breakfast just to get
me there. Ryanair has a very successful model
and it has behind that. And I would also be an
advocate for that. Strong brands typically have
a strong voice behind it. So Michael O 'Leary
is a very strong persona behind that brand and
unapologetically so. And that's the decision.
And the one time I recall that Ryanair tried
to dabble in the warm and cuddly space. It didn't
really work because none of us believed it when
they tried to be warmer and cuddly. And they
did go through that because at one stage they
were getting such negative feedback from their
customer base that people were prepared to spend
another 50 to 70 euros just to not have that.
So there was a deal breaker factor that they
pulled back on because it was actually hurting
their bottom line. when they tried to get very
warm and cuddly about things, it just didn't
work because it was so far removed from where
the brand has come from. So it's a great case
in point of being really clear about what you
have to offer, unapologetic about it, making
sure you bring value in the context of what that
value means, because value doesn't necessarily
mean with all the bells and whistles. value can
be getting us there on time, reliably so, and
knowing that when we go on board, it's not coming
with all the other add -ons. And you can still
like, you can still bring other elements into
it. I mean, I've flown with like all of us with
other discount airlines and they bring other
elements into their brand that makes it successful
and they still do it on a cost effective basis.
Yes, you can be, but you have to stay true. So
you were saying, well, can you change your value
proposition significantly, no. When you've really
got an established business model that works
and that's what you're continuing to drive growth
on, then you have to stay true to that and the
purpose and the values and the vision behind
that. But you can adapt subtle nuances that are
relevant to that target audience and that jurisdiction.
And Ryanair hasn't, you know, when it's looked
to expand its bases in different parts of Europe,
it hasn't worked everywhere. Because some, some
areas just culturally just, it just doesn't resonate
enough. So they can fly in and out, but it's
never going to become a whole because culturally
it just jars too much with the values of that
particular region. And I'm thinking about, you
know, a very well -known case in history, which
is Henry Ford. He was once asked or once told
the media that if he was to build what people
wanted, they would want a carriage with more
horses. Now, how do you as a company and as a
brand, I guess, lead the way, but also inspire
the consumer, the customer to say, actually,
you know, this is what you actually need, which
should actually be driving or using, in this
case, you know, a car for Henry Ford. How do
you do that? Because it's completely, some of
the companies I talk to are building something,
you know, revolutionary. And how do they tell
the audience, actually, you don't want a faster,
you know, horse, strong carriage, you actually
want a car because of AB &C. So how do you do
that? I actually think you can even bring that
forward to another huge visionary who had a similar
philosophy, and very successfully so, which would
have been Steve Jobs, and he had a very interesting
trajectory. There he goes again. Oh, yeah. The
funny thing about - oh, okay, I just figured
out what it was. It's a cable. I'm literally
going to leave this on because I just think it's
hilarious. The first time this actually happened
so many times. Uh, so I'm leeching, I'm gonna
leave this on. Case in point, he actually would
have had, I can certainly remember footage where
he said something very similar. And oftentimes
when you're a visionary around whether you're
selling physical product or service, often your
audience cannot necessarily envision what that
is going to look like. And I think if we go back,
remember I was talking about, you know, that's
a brand that started off with its roots around
a professional base. But if we go back to the
first time iPhone was brought to market and we
go back and think about that launch and how he
brought that to market and the language around
it and how it was revealed. If you had asked
the customer what they could, the average customer,
mainstream customer around what they could envision,
they wouldn't have seen it. And so Apple is consistently
under Steve Jobs leadership. was an extremely
innovative brand and often brought product to
market that people hadn't envisioned. And of
course, the launches were so exciting because
you're going to go, what's the next big thing?
And then you have people lining up, buying tickets
to be sold to and the queues outside Apple stores
for new launches, like days before they can buy
it, are infamous. And that's all part of your
brand. in terms of how it's perceived. Yes, building
something's success. Now you do have, and I have
worked with tech businesses, whereby you have
challenges, whereby you're bringing something
so new to market that you can be ahead of trend
or before the market is really understanding
what it is you are doing and why it's really
of huge value. So that means you've got to do
a huge amount of educating. So part of your responsibility
as the brand owner, leader, visionary is going
to go well. In order for the market to understand,
we've got to present it to them in non -tech
way in language that's relevant to them around
how this is going to add massive value and change
to their lives in a way that's really positive.
That's where storytelling becomes incredibly
important. And then coming back to understand
your target audience. How does it solve a problem?
How does it enhance their lives? How does it
add value? How does it eliminate Barriers whereby
somebody might think I'm not techy. I can't buy
this is too difficult to use. So it comes back
to how do you communicate what you have to offer
in simple language that a seven or eight year
old can understand? And make it all about them.
And should you as a brand be accessible to getting
feedback from customers or should it be this
highly unattainable brand that no one can actually
reach out to? I'm thinking, for example, companies
like Hermes. So Hermes makes a limited number
of handmade handbags and they're really hard
to reach. It doesn't matter how much money you
have. There's only a limited number of handbags
in the market. That's it. That's the end of the
story. How do you manage that as a brand or should
you position yourself that way? That's a very
clear brand strategy around scarcity and deliberate
intent because in that context, it's very well
understood by brand owners that Or we can just
step back for a moment. When something is in
limited amount of quantity or value and is unavailable,
it immediately increases in its perceived value
from a target audience point of view. So bring
this back to something super simplistic. Say
we have a problem with water supply, which we
all would, to a certain level, if we're living
in the western part of the world, we take for
granted to some degree. So clean water supply,
if that's a problem, then suddenly the supermarkets
are going to sell out and water is priced at
a premium. So if you take a lot of the premium
brands, they deliberately operate on the basis
of limited supply at a really premium high price
point. And that is intentional and deliberate
because then you've got all the status symbolists
attached with like think of a handbag. There
is actually a material of cost bait to that.
And yes, they are beautifully made with really
a high level of handmade skills work. But you
can debate, well, how many thousands does that
actually cost to make versus the actual end retail
price? And that all comes back to, well, if you
are a target audience, a certain kind of person
who likes to have that draped over their arm
and they like all the status symbol attached
to it, and they know that of that particular
model, only a hundred are going to be made. I'm
just going to be one of those people that has
it. That's what you're selling. As much the status
symbol as it is, phenomenal craftsmanship. Interesting.
I'm thinking about all the startups I know and
everyone building res and it's funny how some
of that get the brand positioning really, really
well and I know exactly what they're about, but
others are still just playing around in the market
and they think, oh, everyone's going to buy our
software. No, they're not. Everyone's going to
use this. No, it doesn't work like that. So actually,
you know, asking these questions and understanding
that better, I think will add a lot of value
to our audience because then they realize actually
we should focus on the specific area of the market.
We should focus on our brand image and brand
positioning and then build around that because
that's ultimately what's going to get you more
and more customers. Like if you're starting with
lean resources. Get clear on where your initial
target audience is going to be and why you're
going to be entering that market. You can't conquer
the world at one go, even if you are selling
a tech product and it's sold for, you know, it's
so anybody in theory can access it. But you're
not going to have success in every jurisdiction.
So look at being successful in one and then scaling
out from there as opposed to trying to conquer
it all at one go. So you're managing the resources
and you're able to fund that growth. It's an
interesting balance, especially when you're asking
for investors' money. Yeah. And you don't want
to do any mistakes. Oh no, we're going to do
everything perfectly from day one. Well, there's
no such thing as perfect. You know there's going
to be. It doesn't matter what you do in life.
There's nothing perfect. And you have to get
comfortable with imperfection. And I'm a recovering
perfectionist, but you've got to get comfortable
with imperfection. The thing is you just want
to try and mitigate how bad those mistakes are
so they don't completely wipe you out. So it's
like iterate and manage exposure. So you don't
completely destroy the bottom line. If people
want to reach out to you and find more about
all the wonderful things you do, how can you
do so? They can, if they want to get in touch
with me, they can email me brand at personadesign
.ie or they can get me through the website. So
that's personadesign .ie. Lorraine, thank you
so much for your time. It's been an absolute
pleasure. It's my pleasure. You're very, very
welcome. Great chat. Thank you. The podcast is
also sponsored by Notion .so. Notion is offering
six months for free for new users. Make sure
you check out our website, the startupevents
.co .uk to read them this offer. This podcast
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