WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.859 Welcome to the Innovation Conversation, a podcast 00:00:02.859 --> 00:00:05.419 about innovators, both in business and real life. 00:00:05.879 --> 00:00:08.380 Hosted by myself, Ricardo Rescual and Harry McCona. 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:11.699 This podcast is also sponsored by ODEV Tech. 00:00:12.439 --> 00:00:14.640 ODEV Tech is your premier software development 00:00:14.640 --> 00:00:18.019 partner. Make sure you check them out at odev 00:00:18.019 --> 00:00:22.399 .tech. The podcast is also sponsored by Notion 00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:25.359 .so. Notion is offering six months for free for 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:27.839 new users. Make sure you check out our website, 00:00:28.039 --> 00:00:30.500 thestoreofevents .co .uk to read in the software. 00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:34.200 Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Innovation 00:00:34.200 --> 00:00:36.659 Conversation. Today we are joined by Sumit Ahuja. 00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:39.579 Sumit, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Ricardo. 00:00:39.740 --> 00:00:42.240 Pleasure to be here. Sumit, would you like to 00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:45.140 introduce yourself to the audience, please? Yes, 00:00:45.200 --> 00:00:46.960 absolutely. And again, thanks for the opportunity. 00:00:47.600 --> 00:00:49.460 So yeah, my name is Sumit and I'm based in the 00:00:49.460 --> 00:00:51.380 San Francisco Bay Area, you know, the innovation 00:00:51.380 --> 00:00:53.020 capital of the world. And of course, there's 00:00:53.020 --> 00:00:55.560 many more. So this is the right podcast for me 00:00:55.560 --> 00:00:57.939 to be on. I like to describe myself as a product 00:00:57.939 --> 00:01:00.079 builder and an innovator. And I've been in the 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:02.740 product technology innovation space for the last 00:01:02.740 --> 00:01:06.319 25, 27 years across different industries, telecom, 00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:08.840 mobile, blockchain, and AI. And I'm currently 00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:12.060 the founder and president of Evoke Impact, which 00:01:12.060 --> 00:01:14.340 is a boutique product and strategy consulting 00:01:14.340 --> 00:01:17.700 firm. and be focused on enterprise, universities, 00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:19.540 and startup ecosystems to help them with their 00:01:19.540 --> 00:01:21.579 innovation journeys. Quite a lot on your planning. 00:01:21.780 --> 00:01:23.900 You're just on the epicenter of all the innovation 00:01:23.900 --> 00:01:25.640 in the world. So quite exciting to be there, 00:01:25.659 --> 00:01:27.579 I imagine. How do you get started with all this? 00:01:27.719 --> 00:01:29.879 Because obviously, did you grow up in San Francisco 00:01:29.879 --> 00:01:31.659 or you moved there? What was the journey like? 00:01:32.900 --> 00:01:35.719 Yeah, so I think there's many ingredients behind 00:01:35.719 --> 00:01:37.819 the scenes. There's not one particular reason 00:01:37.819 --> 00:01:39.780 or one particular factor that caused me to be 00:01:39.780 --> 00:01:42.959 where I am. So I was actually born in the Middle 00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:45.819 East. lived there for several years, moved to 00:01:45.819 --> 00:01:47.680 India, went back to the Middle East, came back 00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:50.400 to India. And then after my high school, which 00:01:50.400 --> 00:01:52.859 was in New Delhi, I moved to the US for undergrad. 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:56.040 And I got a degree in engineering in Wisconsin. 00:01:56.719 --> 00:01:58.920 And very early back in the 2000s, I moved to 00:01:58.920 --> 00:02:00.579 the Bay Area. So I've been here for quite some 00:02:00.579 --> 00:02:04.819 time. And my career then took off in semiconductors 00:02:04.819 --> 00:02:06.819 when, you know, semiconductor was really just 00:02:06.819 --> 00:02:08.860 the only thing being talked about. There wasn't 00:02:08.860 --> 00:02:11.949 any even internet or AI being talked about. But 00:02:11.949 --> 00:02:14.669 I built my career from that point on into semiconductors, 00:02:14.889 --> 00:02:17.689 into telecom, mobile, and then moving to fintech 00:02:17.689 --> 00:02:20.650 and blockchain and AI with companies such as 00:02:20.650 --> 00:02:24.069 AT &T, PayPal, and Circle. But the common thread 00:02:24.069 --> 00:02:26.689 across all of the things I've done in the past, 00:02:26.830 --> 00:02:29.610 I would say is, and maybe this is the fact that 00:02:29.610 --> 00:02:31.490 you're in the Bay Area, in the Silicon Valley, 00:02:31.650 --> 00:02:34.590 and some things are more available to you, is 00:02:34.590 --> 00:02:36.949 that I was able to work on some cutting edge 00:02:36.949 --> 00:02:38.729 technology and products right from the get -go. 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:42.400 whether it was in semiconductor testing, whether 00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:45.419 it was building our first Converse entertainment 00:02:45.419 --> 00:02:48.120 services running on fiber optic cables, fintech 00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:50.800 when it was booming back in the 2010s, and more 00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:53.000 recently working on digital finance and stable 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:56.159 coins. So, you know, I guess I'm a sucker for 00:02:56.159 --> 00:02:58.699 innovation. It just draws me. I like the chaos, 00:02:58.800 --> 00:03:00.939 but I've been able to build that journey along 00:03:00.939 --> 00:03:04.090 the way in this fashion. And I think it's linear. 00:03:04.469 --> 00:03:06.129 Obviously, some of these things are more opportunistic 00:03:06.129 --> 00:03:08.530 as well. But during this journey, I had a chance 00:03:08.530 --> 00:03:11.669 to also sink my teeth a lot into the startup 00:03:11.669 --> 00:03:15.169 ecosystem. Because like I said, I enjoyed disruption, 00:03:15.210 --> 00:03:18.009 innovation, and actually working with people 00:03:18.009 --> 00:03:21.889 who are bending the curve. And through this path, 00:03:21.949 --> 00:03:25.969 I was able to work on some advisory roles. I 00:03:25.969 --> 00:03:28.069 got a chance to invest in some companies. And 00:03:28.069 --> 00:03:29.990 again, when you start doing certain things in 00:03:29.990 --> 00:03:32.469 a certain direction, more doors open up to you. 00:03:32.729 --> 00:03:35.789 So on this path, I had some folks come and say, 00:03:35.830 --> 00:03:37.409 hey, you should be teaching at some universities 00:03:37.409 --> 00:03:39.650 as well. So that kind of opened up doors for 00:03:39.650 --> 00:03:42.550 me to teach in Barcelona, in Bangkok, and other 00:03:42.550 --> 00:03:46.110 places. And then all this coalesced into saying, 00:03:46.889 --> 00:03:49.830 I need to do something that really drives innovation, 00:03:49.889 --> 00:03:52.030 but I want to enable it through bridging the 00:03:52.030 --> 00:03:56.370 skills gap, which I see emerging quite a lot 00:03:56.370 --> 00:03:59.930 in the Middle Eastern region, in Asia, in India, 00:04:00.009 --> 00:04:03.479 and America. my company Evoque Impact was born. 00:04:03.979 --> 00:04:06.120 So really, you know, the journey is, there's 00:04:06.120 --> 00:04:08.460 a little seed of innovation right in the beginning 00:04:08.460 --> 00:04:10.659 of the career. And then it kind of builds like 00:04:10.659 --> 00:04:14.939 a snowball over the time. So you've been in a 00:04:14.939 --> 00:04:16.779 lot of companies and you kind of, I should put 00:04:16.779 --> 00:04:18.600 this, you're an expert in all things innovation. 00:04:18.860 --> 00:04:21.660 What I want to ask you is what defines, what 00:04:21.660 --> 00:04:24.560 defines successful policy of having a lot of 00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:26.800 innovators within the company? Like how do you, 00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:28.600 how do you manage to make that work? Cause you 00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:31.610 work in PayPal, AT &T, Circle. how do you keep 00:04:31.610 --> 00:04:33.430 I guess people under control but at the same 00:04:33.430 --> 00:04:35.449 time also very creative and always launching 00:04:35.449 --> 00:04:39.810 new products? Yeah well I don't think I'm an 00:04:39.810 --> 00:04:41.670 expert at the level I want to be there's still 00:04:41.670 --> 00:04:43.610 a long way to go for me but yes I've been in 00:04:43.610 --> 00:04:47.250 this space for a very long time and I've seen 00:04:47.250 --> 00:04:50.990 what I call the web one to web two to web three 00:04:50.990 --> 00:04:54.850 journey here and worldwide but I would say you 00:04:54.850 --> 00:04:58.189 know in terms of how you run innovation? How 00:04:58.189 --> 00:05:00.329 do you control innovation? How do you measure 00:05:00.329 --> 00:05:04.709 innovation? I think it's not one single answer. 00:05:04.990 --> 00:05:08.350 And the cop -out answer is it depends. If you're 00:05:08.350 --> 00:05:09.790 in a startup, the answer is different. If you're 00:05:09.790 --> 00:05:11.370 in a large company, the answer is different because 00:05:11.370 --> 00:05:13.509 the priorities are different. The culture is 00:05:13.509 --> 00:05:16.350 different. The commitments to stakeholders and 00:05:16.350 --> 00:05:19.149 markets are different. But I would say that the 00:05:19.149 --> 00:05:22.689 single most important thing that defines or can 00:05:22.689 --> 00:05:25.879 lead to innovation in a company is just generally 00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:28.600 their appetite for risk and also bringing the 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:31.980 right talent and the right culture. So if you 00:05:31.980 --> 00:05:33.839 have the right combination of all of those and 00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:35.720 those things are not easy, you'll have one or 00:05:35.720 --> 00:05:38.439 two or maybe three or maybe not any one of them. 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:42.300 So the way that you would be in a large company, 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:44.379 I've been in large companies for the most part 00:05:44.379 --> 00:05:46.899 and of course some unicorns after that. So the 00:05:46.899 --> 00:05:48.579 way innovation is approached is very different. 00:05:49.300 --> 00:05:51.800 You know, in large companies like AT &T, innovation 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:53.939 becomes something that becomes sometimes an afterthought. 00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:56.680 Or if it's something that is more incremental, 00:05:56.800 --> 00:05:58.639 it takes a long time because you've got markets, 00:05:58.779 --> 00:06:00.639 you've got large sets of products and people, 00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:03.500 large commitments to Wall Street. So things can 00:06:03.500 --> 00:06:06.420 get slower. I moved from a 200 ,000 people company 00:06:06.420 --> 00:06:09.620 to a 20 ,000 company at PayPal. So things became 00:06:09.620 --> 00:06:13.699 much faster, like 10 times faster. And then you're 00:06:13.699 --> 00:06:17.459 actually building products and you're disrupting 00:06:17.459 --> 00:06:20.800 what I call infrastructure. In this case, in 00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:23.000 FinTech. you're really rebuilding the financial 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:25.720 systems across the world. So just the nature 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:28.360 of the work you do requires you to bend the curve. 00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:31.319 So the people you bring in, the people you naturally 00:06:31.319 --> 00:06:34.300 attract, the culture at the top, the empowerment 00:06:34.300 --> 00:06:36.699 at the bottom, all of those things matter. And 00:06:36.699 --> 00:06:38.639 some of these things begin to happen more mentally. 00:06:39.139 --> 00:06:41.199 But I would say that, like I said, the risk appetite, 00:06:41.319 --> 00:06:43.339 the talent you bring in, and the culture is really, 00:06:43.339 --> 00:06:46.779 really most critical to foster that innovation. 00:06:47.319 --> 00:06:49.139 And then I went from a 20 ,000 person company 00:06:49.139 --> 00:06:53.199 to a 200 person company. at circle. And you can 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:56.139 imagine it's a rocket ship. So over there, you 00:06:56.139 --> 00:06:58.600 know, you like I said, you shoot first and then 00:06:58.600 --> 00:07:02.000 you aim. Right. Or you make the commitment and 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:04.800 do things and ask for forgiveness after. So it's 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:07.339 just a very different way of operating. But all 00:07:07.339 --> 00:07:10.540 in all, I would say there has to be something 00:07:10.540 --> 00:07:14.360 that sparks that innate need that this is where 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:16.500 you want to be. So innovation culture doesn't 00:07:16.500 --> 00:07:18.720 get built overnight. It takes years to build. 00:07:18.839 --> 00:07:21.379 So those are some of the things I've seen. And 00:07:21.379 --> 00:07:23.600 now I'm obviously in a one -man show or two -man 00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:26.600 show. So 200 ,000 to 20 ,000 to 200 ,000 are 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:30.339 two people in my company. And, you know, I, you 00:07:30.339 --> 00:07:33.459 know, you take the shot first and you aim. So 00:07:33.459 --> 00:07:36.360 sometimes you got to go down the plot, but not 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:39.680 a simple answer. But there are some key ingredients 00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:43.639 that are necessary to drive innovation. And, 00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:46.279 you know, when you teach your students now, what 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:48.160 do you tell them not to do? Because we know, 00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:49.519 you know, they should focus on getting talent, 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:51.939 on managing risk, and also getting a nice culture. 00:07:52.199 --> 00:07:53.699 But what do you always tell them? You know, guys, 00:07:53.860 --> 00:07:55.800 don't even try to do these things these ways 00:07:55.800 --> 00:07:57.459 because it's not going to work. Yeah. You know, 00:07:57.779 --> 00:08:00.220 innovation, again, is done best when you let 00:08:00.220 --> 00:08:02.399 ideas fly, right? When you don't put too many 00:08:02.399 --> 00:08:06.939 bounds around people. But I think innovation, 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:09.980 just to the heck of it, is not worth it because 00:08:09.980 --> 00:08:12.660 you're burning resources, you're burning time. 00:08:13.760 --> 00:08:16.420 And, you know, the business world is not very 00:08:16.420 --> 00:08:17.899 forgiving. You know, you don't get very many 00:08:17.899 --> 00:08:20.839 chances to come up with a blockbuster idea or 00:08:20.839 --> 00:08:23.720 blockbuster product. Unless you're a large company, 00:08:23.740 --> 00:08:27.000 you have the resources to fail. So I think one 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:30.259 of the things I always like to focus on is, yeah, 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:32.879 let's brainstorm. You know, let's whiteboard. 00:08:32.940 --> 00:08:34.460 Let's kind of think about how you can actually 00:08:34.460 --> 00:08:37.399 solve a problem. But at the end of the day, you 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:40.360 know, innovation too quick, too fast, too early 00:08:40.360 --> 00:08:43.679 does not see the light of day. And it just fails 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:46.399 and there's enough precedents in the history 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:49.419 where things have happened early Didn't connect 00:08:49.419 --> 00:08:51.399 and it came back five years later or ten years 00:08:51.399 --> 00:08:54.559 later or never came back So I think one of the 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:56.399 most important things as innovators you have 00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:00.259 to do is you cannot get married to What you're 00:09:00.259 --> 00:09:04.019 building you have to say it through to what he 00:09:04.019 --> 00:09:06.980 is solving for you know, if you believe that 00:09:06.980 --> 00:09:10.700 your first idea or your first product or your 00:09:10.700 --> 00:09:13.960 first you know, tangible or intangible offering 00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:16.919 to the market, to the people is going to be the 00:09:16.919 --> 00:09:19.600 end product, you're mistaken. Which is why if 00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:22.159 I fixate myself on what I'm trying to solve for, 00:09:23.059 --> 00:09:25.240 as opposed to what I'm building, you're better 00:09:25.240 --> 00:09:26.960 off. Because what you're building is going to 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:29.100 change. You know, investors put money in companies 00:09:29.100 --> 00:09:31.360 and teams, not because of what you're actually 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:33.340 building, it's actually what's the problem space. 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:36.039 Is it big enough? Because they believe that if 00:09:36.039 --> 00:09:39.019 you tackle that, you will find the way to the 00:09:39.019 --> 00:09:41.379 right product at some point. Hopefully fast, 00:09:41.539 --> 00:09:43.960 but if you're fixating yourself on just at one 00:09:43.960 --> 00:09:47.399 solution that may not be the right answer so 00:09:47.399 --> 00:09:50.899 as an innovator as You know a leader in product 00:09:50.899 --> 00:09:53.100 which I've been for the last many years I like 00:09:53.100 --> 00:09:55.440 to tell my teams that fixate on the customer 00:09:55.440 --> 00:09:58.019 on the value proposition and the rest should 00:09:58.019 --> 00:10:00.639 flow from there so those are the things I like 00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:04.320 to tell and you know or In terms of you know 00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:07.179 to do and not to do talk to the customers all 00:10:07.179 --> 00:10:10.299 the time all the time talk to your vendors all 00:10:10.299 --> 00:10:12.940 the time, talk to your stakeholders all the time. 00:10:13.299 --> 00:10:14.919 And you know, how was it when you made the leap 00:10:14.919 --> 00:10:17.139 from, you know, big corporations like PayPal 00:10:17.139 --> 00:10:19.580 and the likes to running your own startup, running 00:10:19.580 --> 00:10:21.419 your own business? How was it? It must have been 00:10:21.419 --> 00:10:23.740 quite scary, I imagine. Or was it completely 00:10:23.740 --> 00:10:27.259 organic and actual? It is scary. It still is 00:10:27.259 --> 00:10:29.700 scary. But you know, there's a point in time 00:10:29.700 --> 00:10:35.000 where you you take the leap of faith. And I think 00:10:36.719 --> 00:10:38.419 entrepreneurs the way I see some entrepreneurs 00:10:38.419 --> 00:10:41.679 are you know I guess they are born with entrepreneurial 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:45.000 mindsets some get created along the way just 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:46.639 like leaders are born leaders are created so 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:49.340 there's a debate in this thing right but I'm 00:10:49.340 --> 00:10:52.320 not the guy who was you know sitting under a 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:54.299 tree and then an apple fell on my head and I 00:10:54.299 --> 00:10:55.720 came up with that idea none of that happened 00:10:55.720 --> 00:10:58.179 so for me it's been a journey of many pieces 00:10:58.179 --> 00:11:00.480 coming together where I was able to validate 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:03.139 my hypotheses where I was able to build conviction 00:11:03.139 --> 00:11:05.240 where I was able to build enough partnerships 00:11:05.659 --> 00:11:08.240 and then take that leap of faith when I knew 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:13.480 that what I'm doing is solving a real need. For 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:16.620 me, it became very clear over the last, let's 00:11:16.620 --> 00:11:21.139 say, 10, 15 years that, again, I've been in mobile 00:11:21.139 --> 00:11:24.840 and consumer tech and fintech. There's always 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:27.799 a promise of democratizing technology, democratizing 00:11:27.799 --> 00:11:30.299 financial services. That's going to level the 00:11:30.299 --> 00:11:31.779 playing field. It's going to make the world way 00:11:31.779 --> 00:11:33.600 better. You know, the same thing was happening 00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:36.100 back to AT &T, at PayPal, at Circle. But the 00:11:36.100 --> 00:11:39.159 one thing I realized is that, you know, we can 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:43.899 give all the financial access to anybody across 00:11:43.899 --> 00:11:47.000 the world. That won't do anything unless you 00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:49.679 also prepare these people across the world with 00:11:49.679 --> 00:11:52.399 the right skill sets, these countries with the 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:55.740 right skill sets to use that financial freedom 00:11:55.740 --> 00:11:58.679 or assets or resources to build for the future. 00:11:59.179 --> 00:12:01.820 So yes, you need financial democracy. You need 00:12:01.820 --> 00:12:03.860 financial access across the world. And I'm a 00:12:03.860 --> 00:12:06.600 true believer in that. But the gap I kept seeing 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:09.120 over and over and over again, especially in the 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:12.820 growth markets, India, Southeast Asia, parts 00:12:12.820 --> 00:12:15.139 of Europe, Africa, Latin America, that's 7 billion 00:12:15.139 --> 00:12:17.480 people. Now think about it. We've been talking 00:12:17.480 --> 00:12:19.440 about financial democracy for the last 20 years, 00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:21.940 but still we haven't grown or bent the curve 00:12:21.940 --> 00:12:24.320 in these markets. And one of the reasons for 00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:26.779 that is the skill sets. You've got markets here 00:12:26.779 --> 00:12:29.080 that have people who are averaging 20, 25 years 00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:31.480 old. I can give them all the money you want. 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:33.960 It's not going to do much. You need to give them 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:37.360 skills, right? So for me, that became very clear 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:40.080 that I'm an expert in innovation, product strategy, 00:12:40.179 --> 00:12:43.460 go to market. And I want to map that to bridging 00:12:43.460 --> 00:12:46.600 the skills gap. And that's how this began to 00:12:46.600 --> 00:12:48.840 percolate in my head. I wanted to create an impact. 00:12:49.019 --> 00:12:52.879 I wanted to evoke an action. And that's how evoke 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:55.460 impact. was born and you know, we're getting 00:12:55.460 --> 00:12:57.259 some good traction in different markets, but 00:12:57.259 --> 00:13:00.399 that's the path I'm on. It's scary, but that's 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:03.720 how it's kind of all germinated. And how quickly 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:06.059 do you think these skill sets can be taught to 00:13:06.059 --> 00:13:07.820 all these different markets? Because there's 00:13:07.820 --> 00:13:09.159 always, you know, I talk to a lot of entrepreneurs 00:13:09.159 --> 00:13:10.679 here in Europe and they always say, we should 00:13:10.679 --> 00:13:12.679 move to the US, the US is where all the action 00:13:12.679 --> 00:13:14.950 is. Which to a certain extent is right. But then 00:13:14.950 --> 00:13:16.570 you kind of wonder, why don't you start building 00:13:16.570 --> 00:13:18.610 locally on something, right? Why don't you try 00:13:18.610 --> 00:13:20.490 and make a gigantic company like I'm thinking 00:13:20.490 --> 00:13:22.590 Spotify, for example, is a really good example. 00:13:22.789 --> 00:13:24.809 So how long do you think it's going to take for 00:13:24.809 --> 00:13:27.149 the other markets to keep up and to actually 00:13:27.149 --> 00:13:30.370 get to the same level? That's a really hard question 00:13:30.370 --> 00:13:34.710 to answer, Ricardo. And the answer is hard because 00:13:34.710 --> 00:13:38.330 there isn't one way to do it. There isn't one 00:13:38.330 --> 00:13:41.279 factor that determines. how quickly these economies 00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:43.580 these countries can really get to the next level 00:13:43.580 --> 00:13:46.559 but I'll say that you know the way I think about 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:50.320 it is you know right now the innovation that's 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:52.620 taking place worldwide you're either solving 00:13:52.620 --> 00:13:56.240 for local regional national needs or you're building 00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:58.240 local like you said and then going to the biggest 00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:00.759 market the biggest market being you know the 00:14:00.759 --> 00:14:05.460 US and maybe Western Europe and so on so the 00:14:05.460 --> 00:14:08.899 answer is There is a little hanging fruit. If 00:14:08.899 --> 00:14:14.580 you're trying to build product services and offerings 00:14:14.580 --> 00:14:16.639 and value proposition for your local markets 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:20.740 and sell in your local markets, there is a good 00:14:20.740 --> 00:14:22.879 chance that you can iterate a lot faster than 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:25.700 building something that has to go global. But 00:14:25.700 --> 00:14:28.519 that might make a lot more time, which is why 00:14:28.519 --> 00:14:31.700 you see in parts of Africa a lot of small fintech 00:14:31.700 --> 00:14:33.789 companies coming up. You see a lot of things 00:14:33.789 --> 00:14:36.110 happening in the Indian startup ecosystem catering 00:14:36.110 --> 00:14:38.549 to hyper -local needs in India. And same thing 00:14:38.549 --> 00:14:40.169 is happening also in the Middle East, in Latin 00:14:40.169 --> 00:14:42.970 America. So those things are, I would say, they're 00:14:42.970 --> 00:14:45.529 not easy. There's no low -hanging fruit. There's 00:14:45.529 --> 00:14:47.750 nothing that's easy. But those things can be 00:14:47.750 --> 00:14:49.289 a little bit faster than saying, you know what, 00:14:49.389 --> 00:14:51.250 I'm going to produce a product or build a product 00:14:51.250 --> 00:14:54.090 and software that's going to solve global needs, 00:14:54.269 --> 00:14:56.889 and I'll land up selling in the biggest markets 00:14:56.889 --> 00:14:58.690 in the world. Those things can take a little 00:14:58.690 --> 00:15:01.860 bit more time. So it depends on what the company's 00:15:01.860 --> 00:15:04.200 trying to solve for, what that audience looks 00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:06.419 like, what's the impact area that you're trying 00:15:06.419 --> 00:15:09.879 to take ownership of. And that will then dictate 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:12.259 your roadmap. That's going to then dictate, do 00:15:12.259 --> 00:15:15.100 you have the right ecosystem available? You have 00:15:15.100 --> 00:15:17.139 the developers, engineers, do you have the right 00:15:17.139 --> 00:15:19.539 investors, the regulations and the policies, 00:15:19.720 --> 00:15:22.279 you know, all of those things matter. So some 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:24.480 things can be done quicker, locally, regionally. 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:27.500 But if you're playing on a global scale, then 00:15:27.500 --> 00:15:30.379 things will take a little bit more time. Would 00:15:30.379 --> 00:15:32.440 you ever advise a startup to go and find investors 00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:34.860 from a different market to invest locally? For 00:15:34.860 --> 00:15:37.460 example, an orientation in Spain would you advise 00:15:37.460 --> 00:15:39.539 Spanish startups to go and find American investors, 00:15:39.580 --> 00:15:43.139 for example? You know, I think that the landscape 00:15:43.139 --> 00:15:46.419 in innovation and startups is changing. You know, 00:15:46.779 --> 00:15:49.000 you obviously have... I'm a firm believer that 00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:51.039 innovation is diffused. There's no one center 00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:52.580 of the world. I mean, if you believe that the 00:15:52.580 --> 00:15:54.139 barrier is going to produce every single tech 00:15:54.139 --> 00:15:55.679 in the world forever, it's not going to happen. 00:15:56.029 --> 00:15:57.809 You know, look at what's happening in China with 00:15:57.809 --> 00:15:59.789 DeepSeek and so many other things going on, right? 00:16:00.490 --> 00:16:04.409 So I think there's a big appetite for even Western 00:16:04.409 --> 00:16:08.789 institutional investors to invest in non -U .S., 00:16:08.789 --> 00:16:12.330 non -European markets, right? Because the returns 00:16:12.330 --> 00:16:14.850 can be maybe quicker. There may be more innovations 00:16:14.850 --> 00:16:17.629 coming from those ecosystems. So that is beginning 00:16:17.629 --> 00:16:21.889 to happen. On the flip side, companies in Spain 00:16:21.889 --> 00:16:24.350 or in other places across the world, in India, 00:16:24.570 --> 00:16:28.019 Middle East here, they want access ready capital 00:16:28.019 --> 00:16:31.860 and that ready capital more so with a little 00:16:31.860 --> 00:16:34.919 strings attached maybe is available more so in 00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:37.259 the US so they will want to come to the US as 00:16:37.259 --> 00:16:39.960 well right to get investments and so on for capital 00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:44.980 so I think I see a lot more like a bilateral 00:16:44.980 --> 00:16:48.100 flow of investments taking place as opposed to 00:16:48.100 --> 00:16:49.860 what it used to be before which was more skewed 00:16:49.860 --> 00:16:53.259 about US investors investing let's say in US 00:16:53.259 --> 00:16:55.639 probably and maybe in the developed countries 00:16:55.850 --> 00:16:58.110 but now the flow of money is beginning to happen 00:16:58.110 --> 00:17:00.549 towards the middle east it is beginning to happen 00:17:00.549 --> 00:17:04.609 in indian companies and vice versa so i think 00:17:04.609 --> 00:17:09.910 it's it's this acceptance of um worldview that 00:17:09.910 --> 00:17:11.390 you're going to have entrepreneurs popping up 00:17:11.390 --> 00:17:14.849 no matter where and you want to fund invest in 00:17:14.849 --> 00:17:18.369 good ideas good companies solid traction so i 00:17:18.369 --> 00:17:21.660 think you'll see more and more of this And how 00:17:21.660 --> 00:17:23.299 important do you think, for example, things like 00:17:23.299 --> 00:17:26.700 blockchain and AI are in this process? Blockchain, 00:17:26.700 --> 00:17:28.500 you know, makes it easier for people to transfer 00:17:28.500 --> 00:17:30.579 funds and, you know, makes it very democratic, 00:17:30.579 --> 00:17:32.400 I guess. I had to transfer money from one place 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:34.480 to the other. And the same thing goes for AI, 00:17:34.500 --> 00:17:36.700 because all of a sudden you can have a really 00:17:36.700 --> 00:17:39.539 good tech team on your computer. Well, not that 00:17:39.539 --> 00:17:40.980 advanced, but, you know, somewhat advanced. They 00:17:40.980 --> 00:17:43.359 can actually do a lot of stuff. Yeah. You know, 00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:46.480 I've been fortunate to work in both spaces, blockchain 00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:50.829 and AI. So to me, the way I see these You know, 00:17:50.829 --> 00:17:55.650 if you go back to like the early 2000s into 2004, 00:17:55.809 --> 00:17:58.990 five, six, or early 90s, sorry late 90s when 00:17:58.990 --> 00:18:01.750 the Googles of the world were being born, it 00:18:01.750 --> 00:18:03.809 did and Microsoft and, you know, Facebook and 00:18:03.809 --> 00:18:07.250 Yahoo back in like late 90s, early 2000s. What 00:18:07.250 --> 00:18:10.769 they did was to fundamentally change the infrastructure 00:18:10.769 --> 00:18:14.569 layer of the internet, the application layer 00:18:14.569 --> 00:18:17.490 that writes on the internet. And yet that kind 00:18:17.490 --> 00:18:20.880 of builds the platform for the fintech to write. 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:24.000 It built the platform for other technologies 00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:26.819 to write. I see the same thing happening now 00:18:26.819 --> 00:18:29.019 with blockchain and AI. Of course, AI has been 00:18:29.019 --> 00:18:32.079 around for 30, 40 years. Blockchain is a little 00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:36.480 bit more newer, 10, 12 years. But the promise 00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:40.180 of the blockchain, again, blockchain and AI are 00:18:40.180 --> 00:18:43.500 very different. Completely different. To me, 00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:46.799 the blockchain is a promise right now. we're 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:50.440 still in a way in early phases of adoption and 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:53.000 But I'm a big believer in the blockchain and 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:56.220 the use cases that it enables You know blockchain 00:18:56.220 --> 00:18:58.200 is often confused with crypto crypto is just 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:00.519 a use case sitting on top of the blockchain There's 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:02.880 so many other things right there's more use cases 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:05.700 to come I do fundamentally believe that the blockchain 00:19:05.700 --> 00:19:09.119 will reshape the Internet based infrastructure 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:12.000 to a different level with all you know faster 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:14.700 cheaper transparent immutability all of those 00:19:15.430 --> 00:19:17.470 characteristics that we have from the blockchain. 00:19:18.990 --> 00:19:21.910 And then you have AI, which of course is on top 00:19:21.910 --> 00:19:23.950 of everybody's mind and on top of everybody's 00:19:23.950 --> 00:19:28.450 tongue. But people need to look beyond just using 00:19:28.450 --> 00:19:33.569 a GPT. AI has been embedded in the things we 00:19:33.569 --> 00:19:37.710 do for 25, 30 plus years in many ways or fashion, 00:19:37.849 --> 00:19:40.829 and it'll continue to do so. So I see both these 00:19:40.829 --> 00:19:44.150 technologies operating on their own levels. Each 00:19:44.150 --> 00:19:46.769 one is going to face regulatory pressures, policy 00:19:46.769 --> 00:19:49.869 pressures, national sovereign level pressures 00:19:49.869 --> 00:19:53.609 from different countries, but they are intersecting. 00:19:53.849 --> 00:19:55.730 You know, they are complementary. You know, I 00:19:55.730 --> 00:19:58.029 was delivering a keynote as a conference and 00:19:58.029 --> 00:19:59.990 I told it's a match made in heaven, blockchain 00:19:59.990 --> 00:20:03.130 and AI. So I think both the texts will reshape 00:20:03.130 --> 00:20:06.730 the next five, 10, 15, 20 years, but we've got 00:20:06.730 --> 00:20:10.250 to get through a lot of hurdles around how do 00:20:10.250 --> 00:20:13.069 you monetize certain things. what use cases are 00:20:13.069 --> 00:20:17.009 most stressing, what are the guardrails to build 00:20:17.009 --> 00:20:19.349 around both of these because both of them are 00:20:19.349 --> 00:20:21.930 just out in the wild at this point, but I see 00:20:21.930 --> 00:20:24.210 both technologies as being fundamentally the 00:20:24.210 --> 00:20:28.170 same level of impact as the internet backbone 00:20:28.170 --> 00:20:30.990 that was built in the late 90s and the early 00:20:30.990 --> 00:20:34.519 2000s. Now, for all these companies just starting 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:36.880 out and listening to the podcast, what advice 00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:38.920 would you give them? And I know there's always 00:20:38.920 --> 00:20:40.359 a couple of key things that people always say, 00:20:40.359 --> 00:20:42.339 you know, this works, this doesn't work. What 00:20:42.339 --> 00:20:46.339 would that be? Wow. Quite a lot there. Yeah, 00:20:46.339 --> 00:20:48.279 it is. And I think, you know, you know, having 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:51.200 a startup or innovation, it's like having a baby, 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:53.440 you know, you can give me all the books you want 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:56.859 around how babies are born, you know, how you 00:20:56.859 --> 00:20:59.420 raise a child. So there are some things that 00:20:59.420 --> 00:21:02.640 are very common across the board, but When you 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:04.640 have a child or when you raise a family or when 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:07.299 you have your own ways to move forward, it's 00:21:07.299 --> 00:21:09.519 very unique. It's very personal. The decisions 00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:12.259 you make, the priorities you have. So while it 00:21:12.259 --> 00:21:14.799 might sound seem like, oh yeah, you know, everybody 00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:16.900 in the world, you know, who has all those same 00:21:16.900 --> 00:21:19.339 resources in a way, but it's a very personal 00:21:19.339 --> 00:21:22.660 journey. So for startups and investors to some 00:21:22.660 --> 00:21:25.319 extent, and maybe for aspiring entrepreneurs, 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:27.920 I would say that it's going to be a very personal 00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:30.160 journey. You know, no matter what people said 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:32.769 that this is a playbook, that this is how it 00:21:32.769 --> 00:21:36.750 happens. Fundamentals are important, but your 00:21:36.750 --> 00:21:38.970 journey will be yours. It can be a very lonely 00:21:38.970 --> 00:21:41.809 journey as well. There's no doubt about that. 00:21:42.069 --> 00:21:46.890 So I think product, ideas, funding, go -to -market, 00:21:47.329 --> 00:21:51.029 talent, ecosystems, all of these are the fundamental 00:21:51.029 --> 00:21:54.650 execution blocks of building a startup, right? 00:21:55.210 --> 00:21:58.009 But at the same time, you've got the philosophical 00:21:58.009 --> 00:22:00.349 angle. of building a company on your own. And 00:22:00.349 --> 00:22:02.650 that's, you know, opportunities don't come directly 00:22:02.650 --> 00:22:05.329 to you. Opportunities always come in disguise. 00:22:06.069 --> 00:22:08.410 So as an entrepreneur, you know, you have to 00:22:08.410 --> 00:22:11.430 be not just be ready and open, but also be willing 00:22:11.430 --> 00:22:14.089 to take that risk to take that opportunity. So, 00:22:14.130 --> 00:22:16.890 you know, one piece of advice I always tell folks 00:22:16.890 --> 00:22:18.470 is, you know, opportunities will come knocking, 00:22:18.529 --> 00:22:20.910 but are you there to open the door? This sounds 00:22:20.910 --> 00:22:23.289 very philosophical, right? But you have to have 00:22:23.289 --> 00:22:26.369 that openness and readiness. And to me, that 00:22:26.369 --> 00:22:28.630 readiness comes from just being out there talking 00:22:28.630 --> 00:22:32.109 to people, having a mentor and advisor, you know, 00:22:32.210 --> 00:22:33.990 being in the right ecosystem. So that's, that's 00:22:33.990 --> 00:22:36.109 one. And I would say that the second thing, which 00:22:36.109 --> 00:22:38.769 I strongly believe in, and that's been very true 00:22:38.769 --> 00:22:40.910 in my case of going back in my journey, in my 00:22:40.910 --> 00:22:43.569 career, been fortunate to work in some good places 00:22:43.569 --> 00:22:46.470 and build a career that I am very grateful for 00:22:46.470 --> 00:22:49.890 is you have to truly believe in the power of 00:22:49.890 --> 00:22:52.309 non -linearity, in the power of serendipity. 00:22:52.819 --> 00:22:56.599 You know as an entrepreneur as a founder or co 00:22:56.599 --> 00:22:58.759 -founder There's only so much you can control 00:22:58.759 --> 00:23:01.140 But you have to believe you have to have the 00:23:01.140 --> 00:23:03.119 faith that there's something behind all of this 00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:05.059 or rather in front of all of this That you can't 00:23:05.059 --> 00:23:07.319 see and it's true in my case You know when you 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:08.680 start getting out there when you start talking 00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:10.920 to people when you put out there what you're 00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:13.259 doing When you start demonstrating the value 00:23:13.259 --> 00:23:16.099 that you can bring the impact that you can have 00:23:16.099 --> 00:23:18.339 Things begin to happen the popcorn begins to 00:23:18.339 --> 00:23:21.279 pop now you can't control. You know when which 00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:23.869 kernel is gonna pop Well, when you put the microwave 00:23:23.869 --> 00:23:25.809 in the put the popcorn in the microwave and you 00:23:25.809 --> 00:23:29.630 turn on Eventually it will begin to pop. So, 00:23:29.690 --> 00:23:31.849 you know, it's just a power of long linearity 00:23:31.849 --> 00:23:35.009 Things will happen in a very serendipitous way 00:23:35.009 --> 00:23:37.670 So for entrepreneurs, you know, yes focus on 00:23:37.670 --> 00:23:40.150 the hard skills on the execution or all of those 00:23:40.150 --> 00:23:42.589 But you have to build in your resilience to be 00:23:42.589 --> 00:23:44.329 able to withstand what's going on around you 00:23:44.329 --> 00:23:47.650 to be Able to see an opportunity when it doesn't 00:23:47.650 --> 00:23:50.880 exist to take the time to be patient with yourself. 00:23:50.980 --> 00:23:52.940 You can't be patient, you know, with a lot of 00:23:52.940 --> 00:23:54.779 things, but you need to give yourself a breathing 00:23:54.779 --> 00:23:57.119 room. So there's a lot of things that I feel 00:23:57.119 --> 00:23:58.960 need to be done by entrepreneurs on the hard 00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:01.839 skill side, execution side, but also building 00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:04.859 your belief system at the same time. And I would 00:24:04.859 --> 00:24:06.259 say the last thing is, you know, if you're an 00:24:06.259 --> 00:24:08.380 entrepreneur, there's no perfection. You know, 00:24:08.380 --> 00:24:09.700 if you're waiting to perfect something, it ain't 00:24:09.700 --> 00:24:12.339 gonna happen. So, you know, progress over perfection 00:24:12.339 --> 00:24:16.740 is my way to go and we're all, the whole world 00:24:16.740 --> 00:24:19.240 is interconnected. So what I do, some has an 00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:21.779 influence somewhere, and so on. So those are 00:24:21.779 --> 00:24:23.740 the things I think about as an entrepreneur, 00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:26.619 in addition to the hard execution and strategy 00:24:26.619 --> 00:24:29.799 skill sets that I have. I'm curious on one thing, 00:24:29.960 --> 00:24:32.019 and this is by the way, a brilliant answer, which 00:24:32.019 --> 00:24:34.839 is what do you do when you face hardships? Because 00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:36.880 by definition, an entrepreneur is going to face 00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:39.660 tons of them, right? Either you being the moment 00:24:39.660 --> 00:24:42.599 to pivot and the need to pivot his company, his 00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:44.660 or her company, but then also, you know, multiple 00:24:44.660 --> 00:24:46.759 things. You can get investment on time. You cannot 00:24:46.759 --> 00:24:48.519 find the right tech team, you know, tons of things 00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:50.539 that can happen. How do you manage all that? 00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:53.279 Yeah, I mean, that's hard. I think I'll be surprised 00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:56.119 if you find any entrepreneur that has not changed 00:24:56.119 --> 00:24:58.480 their mind a couple of times or hasn't pivoted 00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:01.759 once or twice. In fact, the purpose of building 00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:04.480 a startup and entrepreneurship is to find the 00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:09.200 right product and service through a process of 00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:12.839 iteration through a process of failure through 00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:14.880 a process of pivoting every now and then and 00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:16.619 making sure that what you're doing is really 00:25:16.619 --> 00:25:18.740 going to hit the mark that it is going to be 00:25:18.740 --> 00:25:20.819 in service of the market but yes you know this 00:25:20.819 --> 00:25:22.900 is where What I was talking about earlier, you 00:25:22.900 --> 00:25:25.119 have to have those skill sets around execution 00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:28.980 to be able to understand using just feel using 00:25:28.980 --> 00:25:32.160 your mentors and advisors, but also data that 00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:35.039 if what you're doing, if it's not solving what 00:25:35.039 --> 00:25:37.220 you want to solve, if it's not going to have 00:25:37.220 --> 00:25:39.839 the impact that it's going to have, then yes, 00:25:39.940 --> 00:25:41.720 there will be pressure of investors. So you may 00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:43.019 have to make a decision that, you know what, 00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:46.500 I'm not going to do A, B or C, but I'll do this 00:25:46.500 --> 00:25:48.920 and that. And I'm going to park the other stuff 00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:52.309 on the back burner. It doesn't mean you never 00:25:52.309 --> 00:25:54.750 get to it. You might get to it at a different 00:25:54.750 --> 00:25:58.750 time at a different pace. So it's important that, 00:25:58.910 --> 00:26:00.890 you know, for me, for example, you know, I've 00:26:00.890 --> 00:26:02.990 had to park a few things on the side and say, 00:26:02.990 --> 00:26:05.490 you know, I'm going to pick this up later. I 00:26:05.490 --> 00:26:08.009 try not to make anything into like a fashion 00:26:08.009 --> 00:26:11.190 project, because if you become emotionally attached 00:26:11.190 --> 00:26:14.529 to certain things, your decision making criteria 00:26:14.529 --> 00:26:17.690 will be just tied to emotion as opposed to objectives. 00:26:18.150 --> 00:26:20.819 You know, entrepreneurship and startups At the 00:26:20.819 --> 00:26:22.160 end of the day, it is going to be a business 00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:25.539 as well. You have to serve the people, your employees, 00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:28.220 your stakeholders, and so on. So I think you 00:26:28.220 --> 00:26:30.900 have to have a certain level of objectivity in 00:26:30.900 --> 00:26:33.259 your decision making, whether it's metrics around 00:26:33.259 --> 00:26:37.640 what's the ARR, what's your burn rate, what are 00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:39.779 you doing to have more revenue per employee, 00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:42.220 how many customers have you signed. It could 00:26:42.220 --> 00:26:45.299 be any of those things. But at some point, those 00:26:45.299 --> 00:26:47.140 metrics will then begin to tell you if what you're 00:26:47.140 --> 00:26:49.609 doing is actually moving the needle. Based on 00:26:49.609 --> 00:26:52.869 that you will be able to decide hopefully what 00:26:52.869 --> 00:26:54.750 you should be doing what you should not be doing 00:26:54.750 --> 00:26:57.269 I think the challenge comes in when somebody 00:26:57.269 --> 00:27:01.230 is very invested in Like I said, like a very 00:27:01.230 --> 00:27:03.130 passionate. There's a purpose behind certain 00:27:03.130 --> 00:27:06.049 things and you're not able to detach yourself 00:27:06.049 --> 00:27:08.710 from it I'm not saying that lose your purpose. 00:27:08.769 --> 00:27:11.670 There has to be a purpose but you have to have 00:27:11.670 --> 00:27:15.289 flexibility to understand that Shifting and pivoting 00:27:15.289 --> 00:27:17.089 does not mean you're giving up your purpose, 00:27:17.569 --> 00:27:20.450 but it just means that You know, there's a detour 00:27:20.450 --> 00:27:22.390 along the way. But yeah, I think it's important 00:27:22.390 --> 00:27:24.410 to have the right sets of metrics along the way 00:27:24.410 --> 00:27:28.089 from an execution standpoint, because you can't 00:27:28.089 --> 00:27:30.950 debate that. I can debate you on philosophy, 00:27:30.950 --> 00:27:34.029 but not on the metrics. How do you manage the 00:27:34.029 --> 00:27:36.150 relationship with investors? I mean, I know you've 00:27:36.150 --> 00:27:37.990 been on both sides. So how do you manage that? 00:27:37.990 --> 00:27:40.190 Because a lot of startups have this belief that 00:27:40.190 --> 00:27:42.529 you should actually stake everything and just 00:27:42.529 --> 00:27:45.089 make sure that you have crazy projections and 00:27:45.089 --> 00:27:46.569 everything is absolutely amazing. It's going 00:27:46.569 --> 00:27:49.470 to be the next Google. In reality, we know that's 00:27:49.470 --> 00:27:52.369 obviously not the case 99 % of the time. So how 00:27:52.369 --> 00:27:54.230 do you manage that relationship and what tips 00:27:54.230 --> 00:27:56.329 and advice would you give to start to manage 00:27:56.329 --> 00:27:59.990 that? Yeah, that's also a really important part 00:27:59.990 --> 00:28:01.910 of the entrepreneurship journey. And I think 00:28:01.910 --> 00:28:05.230 just like investors are looking for the right 00:28:05.230 --> 00:28:08.670 blockbuster idea and product and they're choosy, 00:28:08.809 --> 00:28:10.329 right? There's so many things out there. They're 00:28:10.329 --> 00:28:12.950 very diligent about the entire analysis before 00:28:12.950 --> 00:28:15.970 they put money into a company or into a founding 00:28:15.970 --> 00:28:19.970 team. The reverse should also be true. We all 00:28:19.970 --> 00:28:22.769 know that most startups fail and in many cases 00:28:22.769 --> 00:28:25.789 they fail It's not just about the product. It's 00:28:25.789 --> 00:28:28.750 also about the investor and founder relationships 00:28:28.750 --> 00:28:33.130 may not go favorably So for founders from startups, 00:28:33.250 --> 00:28:35.730 they should do an equal amount of due diligence 00:28:35.730 --> 00:28:38.309 on who they will want to bring to the cap table 00:28:38.309 --> 00:28:40.970 Different investors are looking for different 00:28:41.180 --> 00:28:43.440 rates of growth, different investors are looking 00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:45.980 for different ways of working, different investors 00:28:45.980 --> 00:28:50.180 have different ways of gauging, analyzing, managing 00:28:50.180 --> 00:28:52.880 expectations with the founders and so on. So 00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:54.839 I think it's important that before somebody signs 00:28:54.839 --> 00:28:58.180 a term sheet, you know, you are available, you 00:28:58.180 --> 00:29:00.599 are aware that, you know, Ricardo is more focused 00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:02.980 on growth numbers as opposed to bought online 00:29:02.980 --> 00:29:05.559 profits. This stage of our journey, right? That 00:29:05.559 --> 00:29:07.839 I know that Ricardo is more focused on us scaling 00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:11.200 into 20 new markets in the next two years. as 00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:13.279 opposed to going deep and broad in these two 00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:15.559 core markets. So I think it's important to know 00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:19.460 what is investor looking for? Can you generally 00:29:19.460 --> 00:29:22.980 satisfy those needs? Right? Now, the answer to 00:29:22.980 --> 00:29:25.480 that is that yes, if I can do a lot of those 00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:29.440 things, I move ahead. But if there's a fundamental 00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:33.859 disagreement in your operating thesis and your 00:29:33.859 --> 00:29:36.960 philosophy for growth, then I think the founder 00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:40.160 startup needs to rethink. what they should be 00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:41.960 doing in that case and you know should they move 00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:45.619 forward or not. Now obviously for startups sometimes 00:29:45.619 --> 00:29:47.200 you know desperation kicks in and they don't 00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:49.200 really want the money. It's the evil that we 00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:53.420 have to live being in the startup world and sometimes 00:29:53.420 --> 00:29:55.200 you know you can make those decisions and just 00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:57.960 to keep things afloat. I'm not going to say that's 00:29:57.960 --> 00:30:01.920 right or wrong sometimes you know like they say 00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:05.940 desperation leads to invention or making things 00:30:05.940 --> 00:30:09.700 better. So it becomes that personal journey for 00:30:09.700 --> 00:30:12.039 the entrepreneur to figure out that if I take 00:30:12.039 --> 00:30:16.059 this bite because I'm desperate, can I turn this 00:30:16.059 --> 00:30:18.559 curve the way I want to? So I think it's a combination 00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:22.019 of those things. But I'll be honest, you will, 00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:23.980 as an entrepreneur, you will always get to the 00:30:23.980 --> 00:30:26.740 point at some point where you might feel desperate 00:30:26.740 --> 00:30:28.799 and make a decision that you might regret, which 00:30:28.799 --> 00:30:31.740 is why managing your clap table should be fairly 00:30:31.740 --> 00:30:34.900 diverse. But it's important that Majority of 00:30:34.900 --> 00:30:37.460 the cap table is aligned with you from your fundamental 00:30:37.460 --> 00:30:40.200 business philosophy, your product philosophy, 00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:42.579 and just your general philosophy of what you 00:30:42.579 --> 00:30:45.160 want to build. You may have some passives along 00:30:45.160 --> 00:30:47.740 the way, some innate investors that you may take 00:30:47.740 --> 00:30:50.140 money from, but that are not managing you. So 00:30:50.140 --> 00:30:53.359 it's okay to go down that path as well. But the 00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:55.720 building of the cap table should be majority 00:30:55.720 --> 00:31:00.980 biased towards highly aligned investors. When 00:31:00.980 --> 00:31:03.680 you have a very nice capital and all that, and 00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:06.039 you need to pivot, do you think they would all 00:31:06.039 --> 00:31:07.720 go along with the idea because they believe in 00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:09.619 you as a person? Or quite on the contrary, they 00:31:09.619 --> 00:31:11.559 might be like, you know what, I invested in something 00:31:11.559 --> 00:31:12.799 and now we're presenting something else, I'm 00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:15.079 not that comfortable. How do you manage that 00:31:15.079 --> 00:31:17.740 actually? It's all a function of time and the 00:31:17.740 --> 00:31:20.240 value you're seeing as an investor. If somebody 00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:23.759 comes and says to me, hey, Ricardo, thanks for 00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:25.680 the investments, but I just want to share that 00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:27.980 we're going to be thinking about moving in this 00:31:27.980 --> 00:31:30.309 direction. as opposed to what we thought about 00:31:30.309 --> 00:31:35.789 a year ago. I think investors are, for the most 00:31:35.789 --> 00:31:37.569 part, the larger ones who are putting in a lot 00:31:37.569 --> 00:31:39.730 of money, and even some investors who are putting 00:31:39.730 --> 00:31:41.750 in money through, you know, syndicates and so 00:31:41.750 --> 00:31:44.210 on. They understand there will be changes along 00:31:44.210 --> 00:31:47.369 the way. If you are expecting things to stay 00:31:47.369 --> 00:31:49.849 stationary, status quo, with your founding team, 00:31:50.769 --> 00:31:52.430 then I don't think you should be an investor, 00:31:52.509 --> 00:31:54.809 first of all, right? Because things will change. 00:31:55.069 --> 00:31:59.049 So for me, as an investor, I do expect some changes. 00:31:59.730 --> 00:32:03.349 As a founder, as an entrepreneur, it is very 00:32:03.349 --> 00:32:05.170 important. I would say two things. Number one, 00:32:05.329 --> 00:32:08.450 don't surprise the investors, right? If you're 00:32:08.450 --> 00:32:09.970 thinking of something different, the communication 00:32:09.970 --> 00:32:13.069 channel has to be open and frequent and meaningful. 00:32:13.849 --> 00:32:16.849 So that level of transparency, that level of 00:32:16.849 --> 00:32:19.950 communication where you're sharing ideas and 00:32:19.950 --> 00:32:23.609 progress and changes and challenges is important. 00:32:23.799 --> 00:32:26.500 Because then you're co -building, you're using 00:32:26.500 --> 00:32:30.660 the effective, comprehensive brain power beyond 00:32:30.660 --> 00:32:33.240 just yours to make the right decisions, right? 00:32:33.400 --> 00:32:35.819 And the second thing, in addition to the communication 00:32:35.819 --> 00:32:38.420 aspect, to manage these administrators when changes 00:32:38.420 --> 00:32:41.880 are taking place, is show me the proof. Show 00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:44.220 me why you're doing what you're doing. And this 00:32:44.220 --> 00:32:45.940 is where we're going back to the objective set 00:32:45.940 --> 00:32:48.480 of execution criteria, product, go -to -market 00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:51.720 analytics, data. This is what we're seeing, this 00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:53.309 is what we've done. These are the pilots that 00:32:53.309 --> 00:32:55.369 we run. This is what failed. This is what didn't 00:32:55.369 --> 00:32:57.369 work. This is what worked. This is what the customers 00:32:57.369 --> 00:32:59.230 are saying. This is what we're hearing globally 00:32:59.230 --> 00:33:01.369 across the ecosystem. And therefore, we're making 00:33:01.369 --> 00:33:05.890 these decisions based on these objective criteria. 00:33:06.130 --> 00:33:11.690 And use that as your ammunition along with creating 00:33:11.690 --> 00:33:14.470 the right roadmap for the future where you're 00:33:14.470 --> 00:33:17.049 getting inputs. So again, easier said than done. 00:33:17.369 --> 00:33:20.960 I'm simplifying this. drastically along the way 00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:24.500 you might have investors that I'm sorry we need 00:33:24.500 --> 00:33:27.279 to draw the line or we need to pull out or you 00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:30.559 as a founder might say yep you know this is where 00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:32.640 we need to draw the line for us as a company. 00:33:34.039 --> 00:33:37.119 So things can be a little tricky too. Now there's 00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:40.079 a lot of buzz around AI as we pointed out already. 00:33:40.220 --> 00:33:42.099 Do you think all the SARVs should be building 00:33:42.099 --> 00:33:44.240 something with AI or not really they can actually 00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:46.559 get by without using it? Should everybody be 00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:49.789 doing the same thing? No, I don't believe in 00:33:49.789 --> 00:33:53.769 the herd mentality. But is it going to be doing 00:33:53.769 --> 00:33:56.690 AI? Yes, in some way and function. The question 00:33:56.690 --> 00:34:00.670 is, what are you using it for? You know, large 00:34:00.670 --> 00:34:05.529 companies have been using AI for 20, 30, maybe 00:34:05.529 --> 00:34:07.569 even more years and they should continue to do 00:34:07.569 --> 00:34:09.989 so because that's going to be more effective 00:34:09.989 --> 00:34:13.030 for them in building their own artisans, their 00:34:13.030 --> 00:34:17.320 risk management engines. their software for personalization, 00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:20.460 for internal processes, for cost management, 00:34:21.099 --> 00:34:23.139 for more productivity. So those things are no 00:34:23.139 --> 00:34:26.059 -brainer. But if you come and say to me that 00:34:26.059 --> 00:34:28.340 every company needs to build an application layer 00:34:28.340 --> 00:34:30.980 offering for the consumer markets just because 00:34:30.980 --> 00:34:35.699 they can, I don't think so, right? Should you 00:34:35.699 --> 00:34:37.980 be building your own GPTs internally to use? 00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:41.139 Yeah, absolutely. It's very productive. So I 00:34:41.139 --> 00:34:46.829 think you have to be aware again about, you know, 00:34:47.010 --> 00:34:49.170 it's machine learning, there's AI, there's deep 00:34:49.170 --> 00:34:51.469 learning. What aspect of AI are you talking about? 00:34:52.070 --> 00:34:53.650 Right now, most of the people when they're talking 00:34:53.650 --> 00:34:55.750 about AI, they're talking about what's in the 00:34:55.750 --> 00:34:58.269 news, right? It's chat, JPTs of the world and 00:34:58.269 --> 00:35:01.750 so on. Yeah, it's that very, very what I call, 00:35:01.750 --> 00:35:05.610 you know, it's the personalization of AI that's 00:35:05.610 --> 00:35:07.210 at your fingertips that they're talking about. 00:35:08.090 --> 00:35:09.690 Now, for every company to do that and do that 00:35:09.690 --> 00:35:11.369 well, it doesn't make sense. It may not be the 00:35:11.369 --> 00:35:14.150 use case you're solving for. Building AI is expensive. 00:35:14.409 --> 00:35:17.469 Right? Monetizing AI is expensive. It is not 00:35:17.469 --> 00:35:19.610 that easy. Getting the right talent in -house 00:35:19.610 --> 00:35:23.010 to build AI is very expensive. And then maintaining 00:35:23.010 --> 00:35:25.849 that also is not that simple. Keeping up with 00:35:25.849 --> 00:35:28.309 it. So I think before anybody goes and says that, 00:35:28.429 --> 00:35:31.190 yep, we're going to be all in on AI as an offering 00:35:31.190 --> 00:35:35.670 is different from we'll be using AI as a tool 00:35:35.670 --> 00:35:39.010 to improve what we want to build for the future 00:35:39.010 --> 00:35:41.610 for offering. There's a difference in them. So 00:35:41.610 --> 00:35:44.019 I think it's a ladder. which I'm promoting right 00:35:44.019 --> 00:35:47.559 now, which is obviously used. It's a tool. If 00:35:47.559 --> 00:35:50.400 I give you a better handler, absolutely I'm going 00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:53.199 to use that when I'm building a house, as opposed 00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:56.460 to a screwdriver. So AI has unfortunately become 00:35:56.460 --> 00:35:58.079 a sledgehammer. Everything looks like a nail 00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:03.440 these days. But smart people will know, is it 00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:06.460 the right use case? Do I have the right resources? 00:36:06.900 --> 00:36:10.579 Do I have the investment capability? right? And 00:36:10.579 --> 00:36:13.239 can I truly drive value for the consumer and 00:36:13.239 --> 00:36:16.699 the customer? A measurable value. So there are 00:36:16.699 --> 00:36:20.119 some frameworks around this before you just jump 00:36:20.119 --> 00:36:24.480 in and start doing things in AI. I like asking 00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:27.440 some personal questions and I'm very curious. 00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:29.539 The last, I'm not going to say the last two books 00:36:29.539 --> 00:36:32.320 you read, but two books that have changed your 00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:34.219 life that you still go back upon and so you know 00:36:34.219 --> 00:36:36.019 what i actually some of the ways i think and 00:36:36.019 --> 00:36:38.059 the ways i act are because of this book ignoring 00:36:38.059 --> 00:36:39.599 all the classical you know all the religious 00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:43.119 stuff yeah business books yeah no for sure and 00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:45.539 um i would say the one book that i will really 00:36:45.539 --> 00:36:52.030 enjoy is sapiens It's a book that really brings 00:36:52.030 --> 00:36:56.050 together history, anthropology, technology, human 00:36:56.050 --> 00:36:58.630 evolution, religion, all of those things together 00:36:58.630 --> 00:37:03.010 and makes you understand and realize how we as 00:37:03.010 --> 00:37:06.610 a species, the sapiens, came to be the most powerful 00:37:06.610 --> 00:37:09.590 entity or species that has existed on the planet 00:37:09.590 --> 00:37:12.590 in perpetuity. But the beauty of that book, it 00:37:12.590 --> 00:37:14.530 really breaks things down into how the whole 00:37:14.530 --> 00:37:17.420 evolution happened. You know, I always say that 00:37:17.420 --> 00:37:20.199 nothing around us is an accident, right? It takes 00:37:20.199 --> 00:37:22.480 work. It takes years and decades. In this case, 00:37:22.579 --> 00:37:25.860 it takes millennia. So this book, to me, it just 00:37:25.860 --> 00:37:27.940 helps me kind of really break away from all the 00:37:27.940 --> 00:37:30.440 stuff going on on a daily basis. I go back and 00:37:30.440 --> 00:37:32.239 kind of read like a few pages every now and then. 00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:34.699 But, you know, for anybody who loves to really 00:37:34.699 --> 00:37:37.460 think through, you know, why did we become who 00:37:37.460 --> 00:37:40.679 we are? Right? How does civilization happen? 00:37:40.880 --> 00:37:43.119 So that's one book I really enjoy. The second 00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:46.159 one is Atomic Habits. And this goes back to what 00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:48.579 I said earlier, you know, the whole philosophy 00:37:48.579 --> 00:37:52.739 of progress over perfection, right? And breaking 00:37:52.739 --> 00:37:55.239 things down into smaller pieces, you know, doing 00:37:55.239 --> 00:37:59.739 things that are more achievable, changeable before 00:37:59.739 --> 00:38:02.079 you boil the ocean. And, you know, I made the 00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:03.900 fundamental mistake early on in my career of 00:38:03.900 --> 00:38:06.340 being a, you know, the perfectionist engineer 00:38:06.340 --> 00:38:08.780 that everything has to be just right. And, you 00:38:08.780 --> 00:38:13.239 know, In the ship sails and nothing happens So 00:38:13.239 --> 00:38:15.739 one of my managers and leaders, you know back 00:38:15.739 --> 00:38:17.559 many years ago. He said to me, you know, you're 00:38:17.559 --> 00:38:20.800 so You're doing things really well, but you really 00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:23.400 need to break away from that perfection mindset 00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:26.400 because everything you do is getting delayed 00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:30.400 or is not seeing light of day or it's not really 00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:33.599 getting the true value that it should get and 00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:35.880 That you know kind of change my mindset. It's 00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:39.710 always small thing. But my mindset now is Definitely 00:38:39.710 --> 00:38:41.409 towards what are the little things that I can 00:38:41.409 --> 00:38:44.250 do to make things better, longer term, as opposed 00:38:44.250 --> 00:38:47.389 to that one big thing. Of course, as an entrepreneur, 00:38:47.650 --> 00:38:49.010 you're looking for the one big thing always. 00:38:49.650 --> 00:38:52.550 But at the baseline, it is the little, little 00:38:52.550 --> 00:38:54.230 things that you're doing. So I think those two 00:38:54.230 --> 00:38:56.510 books have always resonated with me and, you 00:38:56.510 --> 00:39:00.489 know, I still go back to them. Very interesting. 00:39:00.750 --> 00:39:03.269 Sumit, as we, you know, getting to the end of 00:39:03.269 --> 00:39:05.369 the podcast, if people want to reach out to you, 00:39:05.469 --> 00:39:08.320 what's the best way of doing so? The best way 00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:11.179 to reach me by all means, you know, I would say 00:39:11.179 --> 00:39:14.480 LinkedIn is the easiest But my email, you know, 00:39:14.619 --> 00:39:19.900 it's my Sumit Sumeet at evoke impact comm so 00:39:19.900 --> 00:39:23.679 Just reach out by email or LinkedIn either spine 00:39:23.679 --> 00:39:29.480 and that's Sumeet at EVO QE impact comm that's 00:39:29.480 --> 00:39:32.679 my work email and I'll be happy to engage, you 00:39:32.679 --> 00:39:40.840 know, just have a conversation and keep the The 00:39:40.840 --> 00:39:47.820 podcast is also sponsored by Notion .so. Notion 00:39:47.820 --> 00:39:50.079 is offering 6 months for free for new users. 00:39:50.460 --> 00:39:52.900 Make sure you check out our website thestarupevents 00:39:52.900 --> 00:39:55.579 .co .uk to read them this offer. 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