WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.859 Welcome to the Innovation Conversation, a podcast 00:00:02.859 --> 00:00:05.419 about innovators, both in business and real life. 00:00:05.879 --> 00:00:08.380 Hosted by myself, Ricardo Rescual and Harry McCona. 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:11.699 This podcast is also sponsored by ODEV Tech. 00:00:12.439 --> 00:00:14.640 ODEV Tech is your premier software development 00:00:14.640 --> 00:00:18.019 partner. Make sure you check them out at odev 00:00:18.019 --> 00:00:22.399 .tech. The podcast is also sponsored by Notion 00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:25.359 .so. Notion is offering six months for free for 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:27.839 new users. Make sure you check out our website, 00:00:28.039 --> 00:00:30.579 thestoreofevents .co .uk to read in the software. 00:00:31.679 --> 00:00:34.359 Hi, and welcome to another episode of The Innovation 00:00:34.359 --> 00:00:37.140 Conversation. Today we are joined by Mike Tedasko. 00:00:37.259 --> 00:00:39.619 Mike, welcome to the podcast. Ricardo, thanks 00:00:39.619 --> 00:00:41.259 for having me. I'm excited about the conversation 00:00:41.259 --> 00:00:43.200 we're going to have. A pleasure having you here, 00:00:43.380 --> 00:00:45.020 Mike. Would you like to introduce yourself to 00:00:45.020 --> 00:00:47.439 the audience, please? Yeah, I'd love to. Hello, 00:00:47.500 --> 00:00:50.880 everyone. Mike Tedasko. My background is buried. 00:00:51.079 --> 00:00:54.100 I started off my career in the world of finance 00:00:54.100 --> 00:00:58.079 and accounting. I ran my own business for a few 00:00:58.079 --> 00:01:01.859 years. I joined PayPal, was in products there, 00:01:02.299 --> 00:01:04.040 worked on some really cool, exciting products 00:01:04.040 --> 00:01:06.099 in my time there. But then in my second half 00:01:06.099 --> 00:01:09.799 of my career within PayPal, I ran the innovation 00:01:09.799 --> 00:01:12.980 group there after we had separated from eBay. 00:01:13.480 --> 00:01:16.340 Did that for about six years, and then most recently 00:01:16.340 --> 00:01:20.700 left that to work at a university at an AI center 00:01:20.700 --> 00:01:24.530 at San Diego State University. It's a quite an 00:01:24.530 --> 00:01:26.370 impressive career. I mean, it seems like you're 00:01:26.370 --> 00:01:28.750 the right guy to talk about anything to do with 00:01:28.750 --> 00:01:31.549 innovation, but also AI, because I was having... 00:01:31.549 --> 00:01:33.590 Bring it on. I'm ready for it, Ricardo. Yeah. 00:01:33.950 --> 00:01:36.409 Okay. All right. So I think, you know, having 00:01:36.409 --> 00:01:38.569 that background and coming from PayPal, I think 00:01:38.569 --> 00:01:41.609 one of the first questions is, how important 00:01:41.609 --> 00:01:44.109 is it for a tech company or, you know, something 00:01:44.109 --> 00:01:46.430 that started and obviously grew into this back 00:01:46.430 --> 00:01:48.989 entity company with this PayPal to continue to 00:01:48.989 --> 00:01:52.049 focus on innovation? Look, I think, yeah, for 00:01:52.049 --> 00:01:55.189 a technology company, you need to be ahead of 00:01:55.189 --> 00:01:57.950 the curve. Like I, I live very close to where 00:01:57.950 --> 00:02:00.489 Intel's headquarters are. For anybody who might 00:02:00.489 --> 00:02:03.409 be following the news on Intel, I mean, it is, 00:02:03.510 --> 00:02:07.090 no, it was a technology company that has birthed 00:02:07.090 --> 00:02:10.409 so many, so much of what we have today exists 00:02:10.409 --> 00:02:13.289 because of that. But they missed mobile, they 00:02:13.289 --> 00:02:17.129 missed GPUs, they missed So many things, and 00:02:17.129 --> 00:02:20.710 now it's has an ousted CEO. It's a shell of its 00:02:20.710 --> 00:02:24.150 former self. And, you know, like that's what 00:02:24.150 --> 00:02:26.509 happens in technology. If you're not innovating, 00:02:26.509 --> 00:02:29.870 if you are not up on like what the next new thing 00:02:29.870 --> 00:02:32.889 is going to be. Yeah, you could still survive, 00:02:32.889 --> 00:02:35.969 but you're not going to thrive. And so for any 00:02:35.969 --> 00:02:38.590 company in the technology space, you need to 00:02:38.590 --> 00:02:40.550 be thinking about what are the next platforms? 00:02:40.590 --> 00:02:42.729 And ultimately, like, what are the better ways 00:02:42.729 --> 00:02:46.620 that I can use. technology to better serve the 00:02:46.620 --> 00:02:50.259 customers who I have now or who I want to be 00:02:50.259 --> 00:02:52.080 my future customers? And these are questions 00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:55.800 that everybody in tech companies or just about 00:02:55.800 --> 00:02:58.580 any company should be asking themselves. What 00:02:58.580 --> 00:03:00.740 do you think that makes companies continue to 00:03:00.740 --> 00:03:04.060 innovate? Is it leadership? Is it culture? What 00:03:04.060 --> 00:03:06.620 are the defining things that actually help them? 00:03:07.970 --> 00:03:10.810 PayPal had a culture of innovation because it 00:03:10.810 --> 00:03:13.729 was forced into it. I mean, yes, there were some 00:03:13.729 --> 00:03:16.310 extremely innovative, creative people at the 00:03:16.310 --> 00:03:19.370 top and, you know, Reid Hoffman and Elon Musk 00:03:19.370 --> 00:03:22.409 and David Sacks and all these people were, you 00:03:22.409 --> 00:03:25.469 know, founders of PayPal or very, very early 00:03:25.469 --> 00:03:28.710 employees and, but they definitely created a 00:03:28.710 --> 00:03:31.810 culture that permeated. So like there were many 00:03:31.810 --> 00:03:34.270 things, you know, on the risk and security side 00:03:34.270 --> 00:03:37.520 of PayPal that were being forced into because 00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:41.219 PayPal is a company and you know, 2000 was doing 00:03:41.219 --> 00:03:44.979 things that the world had not seen before. So 00:03:44.979 --> 00:03:47.939 one example that I think is, was an amazing innovation, 00:03:48.259 --> 00:03:50.539 which sounds so simplistic nowadays, but you 00:03:50.539 --> 00:03:53.180 know, back in the days when people were trying 00:03:53.180 --> 00:03:55.960 to add their bank accounts to PayPal, they had 00:03:55.960 --> 00:03:59.639 to send in to PayPal, a paper check that somebody 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:03.060 had to actually look at and type in and all this 00:04:03.060 --> 00:04:06.879 stuff like total archaic. really difficult process. 00:04:07.759 --> 00:04:10.039 Somebody suggested, an engineer, I believe suggested 00:04:10.039 --> 00:04:12.120 like, well, what if we had a PIN number instead? 00:04:12.580 --> 00:04:14.960 And this led to a thing that's actually still 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:18.360 used today in banks in the United States, where 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:20.860 often if you want to confirm your bank account, 00:04:21.220 --> 00:04:23.420 you will get a micro payment. They will send 00:04:23.420 --> 00:04:27.819 you 16 cents and 34 cents, like two random amounts. 00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:30.500 You type those in and that's a way that they 00:04:30.500 --> 00:04:32.879 can actually confirm a bank account. And it's 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:35.459 way less costly to send a few cents to somebody 00:04:35.459 --> 00:04:37.920 than it is to have a paper check in this whole 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:40.079 process. And that was just something that was 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:42.639 birthed out of necessity. And so I think a lot 00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:46.079 of innovation comes down to, you know, what's 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:48.100 the need, what are you trying to serve? And also 00:04:48.100 --> 00:04:50.120 having a culture that's going to encourage that. 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:51.879 And of course, you know, I'm sure we'll talk 00:04:51.879 --> 00:04:53.839 more about failure and things like that at some 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:57.209 point, but a culture that is not going to When 00:04:57.209 --> 00:04:59.509 you screw up, when it doesn't work, when you 00:04:59.509 --> 00:05:01.850 gave it a good faith effort and tried something, 00:05:02.149 --> 00:05:05.209 that's not the end of your career. You need to 00:05:05.209 --> 00:05:08.050 pivot and shake yourself off and learn from that 00:05:08.050 --> 00:05:11.009 and just move on to something else. How you create 00:05:11.009 --> 00:05:13.889 a culture that really emphasizes on those types 00:05:13.889 --> 00:05:17.129 of things, that's pivotal in making an innovative 00:05:17.129 --> 00:05:19.670 company. Well, I think it just led to my next 00:05:19.670 --> 00:05:22.569 question, which is exactly that. How do you manage 00:05:22.569 --> 00:05:25.339 to create that? Because a lot of people, when 00:05:25.339 --> 00:05:27.120 they're working, they're actually quite afraid 00:05:27.120 --> 00:05:29.480 of making mistakes and then they don't risk, 00:05:29.540 --> 00:05:31.139 they don't, you know, try to do anything new. 00:05:31.259 --> 00:05:33.199 It's more, okay, I know this works. I'll keep 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:36.519 on doing this till my dying days. But in reality, 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:38.540 we all need to adapt and actually need to grow 00:05:38.540 --> 00:05:40.800 very quickly. So how do you foster that within 00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:43.420 the company itself? And how do you promote that 00:05:43.420 --> 00:05:46.720 sense of it's okay to make mistakes? And I actually 00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:48.360 expect you to make mistakes because that means 00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:52.000 you create something new. Yeah. Look, every company 00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:54.959 is different. And every company needs to find 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:58.259 their own way to do that. I think leading by 00:05:58.259 --> 00:06:00.879 example is a great way to do that for senior 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:03.579 leadership. If you only talk to employees about 00:06:03.579 --> 00:06:07.720 your successes, that is going to be a tell for 00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:09.639 them that they're not allowed to fail either. 00:06:09.980 --> 00:06:12.879 When you are a leader and you're very open in 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:15.439 your own shortcomings, and you get up on stage 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:17.540 and say, Hey, we screwed this up or whatever, 00:06:18.100 --> 00:06:20.519 or I'm sorry, not we. When you say, I screwed 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:24.379 this up as a leader. That's a tell to make it 00:06:24.379 --> 00:06:27.379 known that like, Hey, it's okay to try stuff. 00:06:27.779 --> 00:06:29.379 I mean, we want to learn from that. One company 00:06:29.379 --> 00:06:31.959 that actually inspired us a lot at PayPal was 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:34.639 a company called Ben & Jerry's, which for people 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:37.100 who might not know is an ice cream company. And 00:06:37.100 --> 00:06:38.879 one of the things they have at Ben & Jerry's 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:40.779 is they have something called a flavor gravy. 00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:43.620 So at their, their corporate headquarters, they 00:06:43.620 --> 00:06:46.680 actually have tombstones for ice cream flavors 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:49.379 that have not succeeded. Like, you know, the 00:06:49.379 --> 00:06:52.060 things that went away and so forth. That's something 00:06:52.060 --> 00:06:54.439 that their employees can see all the time when 00:06:54.439 --> 00:06:56.620 they're there as part of that. So at PayPal, 00:06:57.019 --> 00:07:00.000 this was before, right before COVID, never actually 00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:01.939 got to get back to the office and finish it. 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:04.199 Unfortunately, we were actually making a product 00:07:04.199 --> 00:07:06.579 graveyard. We were, and it was so great. We had 00:07:06.579 --> 00:07:09.259 like a little, like, like a model train sets 00:07:09.259 --> 00:07:12.180 with these trees and all that. We were kind of 00:07:12.180 --> 00:07:15.220 recreating the PayPal campus on this scaled down 00:07:15.220 --> 00:07:18.750 version with little. PayPal products or representations 00:07:18.750 --> 00:07:21.250 of PayPal products with QR codes that you could 00:07:21.250 --> 00:07:23.949 scan and learn about that. And we were interviewing 00:07:23.949 --> 00:07:26.129 the people who created these things that did 00:07:26.129 --> 00:07:28.250 not succeed and what they learned from them. 00:07:28.589 --> 00:07:31.430 Because again, it's not that. Look, it's not 00:07:31.430 --> 00:07:33.310 that you were saying like, oh, well, we should 00:07:33.310 --> 00:07:35.769 just keep failing. No, that's not the point. 00:07:36.819 --> 00:07:39.740 Failure is a stepping stone to success. You know, 00:07:39.899 --> 00:07:42.980 you don't go to school just or learn a foreign 00:07:42.980 --> 00:07:45.139 language, just expecting, well, yeah, I'm just 00:07:45.139 --> 00:07:46.680 going to hear it once and I'm going to speak 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:48.459 it fluently right back to you and understand. 00:07:48.699 --> 00:07:51.519 Like, no, it's an iterative process and how we 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:55.660 learn as an individual or as a group. And you 00:07:55.660 --> 00:07:57.480 have to learn from each step and you're going 00:07:57.480 --> 00:07:59.860 to get better and better and better as you do 00:07:59.860 --> 00:08:03.660 that. And to just say like, You know to sweep 00:08:03.660 --> 00:08:05.600 it like I think a lot of companies natural reaction 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:07.439 is like that's a failure We're never gonna talk 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:10.480 about that again. That is by far the worst thing 00:08:10.480 --> 00:08:13.540 that you could possibly be doing It's interesting 00:08:13.540 --> 00:08:15.439 saying that because I talk with a lot of startups 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:17.779 and also investors and one of the key things 00:08:17.779 --> 00:08:20.240 that I think investors always look at is Have 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:22.980 they been able to pivot because they know the 00:08:22.980 --> 00:08:25.199 first idea is not going to work out So they're 00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:26.959 actually looking for the ability to pivot more 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:29.959 than anything else. And it just goes to show 00:08:29.959 --> 00:08:31.560 it's exactly like you said. You need to continue 00:08:31.560 --> 00:08:33.539 to innovate. You need to continue making not 00:08:33.539 --> 00:08:35.740 just mistakes, but being able to take the risk 00:08:35.740 --> 00:08:38.539 and embrace that risk. This is part of the game, 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:41.990 isn't it? There's not been a successful company 00:08:41.990 --> 00:08:45.549 that exists today that didn't have horror stories. 00:08:45.730 --> 00:08:47.909 They thought they were going to die and that 00:08:47.909 --> 00:08:50.409 didn't have to pivot. I mean, like again, to 00:08:50.409 --> 00:08:53.250 bring up PayPal again. PayPal was a company for 00:08:53.250 --> 00:08:56.250 wiring money between Palm Piles. They were using 00:08:56.250 --> 00:08:59.429 the infrared technology between two Palm Pilot 00:08:59.429 --> 00:09:01.649 devices to send money. And that's what they were 00:09:01.649 --> 00:09:04.720 making. the whole business about. It just happened 00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:07.320 to be that Max Leption, one of the founders, 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:10.039 made something as a test where people could send 00:09:10.039 --> 00:09:14.240 money to an email address. And frankly, from 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:16.340 the stories I've heard, like the company fought 00:09:16.340 --> 00:09:18.500 against that. They're kind of like, no, no, that's 00:09:18.500 --> 00:09:20.220 actually, that's not what we're about. We're 00:09:20.220 --> 00:09:23.100 about sending money between Palm Pilots. And 00:09:23.100 --> 00:09:25.279 all of a sudden these people started to use this 00:09:25.279 --> 00:09:27.740 testing thing that Max had set up for sending 00:09:27.740 --> 00:09:30.360 money to an email address. And then finally as 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:31.980 a company, they had to realize like, Actually, 00:09:31.980 --> 00:09:33.919 I guess that's the business. And then it caught 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:36.179 on eBay and expanded to all these other things. 00:09:36.299 --> 00:09:38.259 But like that was a huge pivot for the company. 00:09:38.460 --> 00:09:40.259 And again, I don't care what company you are. 00:09:40.299 --> 00:09:42.779 You have had these stories. Like it's not always 00:09:42.779 --> 00:09:45.940 just up into the rights for growth. You are going 00:09:45.940 --> 00:09:48.700 to have pivot. You're going to have to, and frankly, 00:09:48.740 --> 00:09:51.559 you have to listen to your customers. That is 00:09:51.559 --> 00:09:55.360 the big thing. And 99 .9 % of the time, what 00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:57.480 you envision is what your customers want is not 00:09:57.480 --> 00:10:00.220 what they actually need. and you need to really 00:10:00.220 --> 00:10:03.019 talk to them, understand that, iterate again 00:10:03.019 --> 00:10:04.879 and again and again until you start to really 00:10:04.879 --> 00:10:08.580 find that product market fit. You know, when 00:10:08.580 --> 00:10:10.399 you're leading innovation in such a big company, 00:10:10.840 --> 00:10:12.500 how do you get that feedback from customers? 00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:15.120 Because sometimes, let's take, for example, a 00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:17.559 very recent case, Jaguar, for example, the car 00:10:17.559 --> 00:10:19.500 company, right? Yeah. You change the branding 00:10:19.500 --> 00:10:21.679 and everyone's kind of against it. The product 00:10:21.679 --> 00:10:24.500 market fit still remains to be seen, I would 00:10:24.500 --> 00:10:26.559 say, at this stage. Then how do you find, you 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:28.080 know, within your company, how do you manage 00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:30.529 to find that? Jaguar is interesting. Like, I 00:10:30.529 --> 00:10:32.590 mean, to me, I feel that this is kind of just 00:10:32.590 --> 00:10:35.610 like a ruse. I mean, again, not to go too far 00:10:35.610 --> 00:10:37.649 down that path, but like, it's been fascinating 00:10:37.649 --> 00:10:39.169 the rebranding that they've been doing because 00:10:39.169 --> 00:10:41.549 like, look, nobody cared about Jaguar before. 00:10:42.070 --> 00:10:44.629 I mean, I don't know what percentage of global 00:10:44.629 --> 00:10:47.570 car sales they were before this. They were definitely 00:10:47.570 --> 00:10:49.529 not top of mind. I bet you they weren't in the 00:10:49.529 --> 00:10:51.789 top 15 car companies. Most people would kind 00:10:51.789 --> 00:10:54.139 of rattle off or anything. So like, It's really 00:10:54.139 --> 00:10:56.399 interesting to generate this and to say like, 00:10:56.480 --> 00:10:58.159 well, we're actually all electric. We're all 00:10:58.159 --> 00:11:00.539 this now, and we're, you know, not about the 00:11:00.539 --> 00:11:02.919 car anymore, whatever this is. Like, you know, 00:11:03.059 --> 00:11:06.039 sometimes, you know, if you were Toyota, you 00:11:06.039 --> 00:11:07.960 probably wouldn't make that because they're the 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:10.139 number one car maker in the world. But when you're, 00:11:10.139 --> 00:11:13.379 again, number 15 or whatever Jaguar is, yeah, 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:16.159 you can take a risk and do something innovative 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:18.659 and creative. That was not your question though. 00:11:18.740 --> 00:11:21.440 Your question, Ricardo, was... actually about 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:23.759 how do you talk to the customers, how do you 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:27.740 get that feedback loop and so forth. I think, 00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:30.620 look, you need to empower your individual teams 00:11:30.620 --> 00:11:34.519 more than anything. At PayPal, again, we had, 00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:37.799 you know, one team that was focused on like charities, 00:11:37.879 --> 00:11:40.519 you know, because the needs of a charity for 00:11:40.519 --> 00:11:43.320 money and collecting funds and so forth are very 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:46.070 different than the needs of a Small business, 00:11:46.210 --> 00:11:48.750 that's just an individual. A medium -sized business 00:11:48.750 --> 00:11:51.110 who might have like more sophisticated integrations 00:11:51.110 --> 00:11:53.669 versus a large business who like, you know, a 00:11:53.669 --> 00:11:56.289 large enterprise. And like all of these had different 00:11:56.289 --> 00:12:02.649 teams, focus. And you need to empower the people 00:12:02.649 --> 00:12:05.629 in the field to be able to do and build what 00:12:05.629 --> 00:12:08.490 is best for their own customers. Like that is 00:12:08.490 --> 00:12:11.970 the one truth. Like as a CEO, you can't dictate. 00:12:12.139 --> 00:12:14.620 those things. Now, if you're like five person 00:12:14.620 --> 00:12:17.299 startup, well, okay, but then you should be the 00:12:17.299 --> 00:12:20.340 person that's out there talking to the customers, 00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:23.620 listening, asking questions, and again, getting 00:12:23.620 --> 00:12:27.080 to what their problems are. And you really want 00:12:27.080 --> 00:12:30.259 to solve those problems in a way that is innovative, 00:12:30.620 --> 00:12:34.039 unique, you know, dare I say 10 times better 00:12:34.039 --> 00:12:36.120 than the way that they're solving their problems 00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:40.019 today. If you can do those things, then you're 00:12:40.019 --> 00:12:42.399 going to have a successful product. So the one 00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:46.059 question to always ask, uh, you know, a customer, 00:12:46.179 --> 00:12:47.860 and this could be as you're investing in a company 00:12:47.860 --> 00:12:50.440 or whatever else, if, if your product disappeared 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:53.240 today, how would your customers react? And if 00:12:53.240 --> 00:12:56.980 it's not like outright forward and Shaw, I mean, 00:12:57.019 --> 00:12:58.720 like, oh my gosh, what am I going to do now? 00:12:59.019 --> 00:13:01.179 Listen to Spotify on the way here. I just got 00:13:01.179 --> 00:13:03.440 my year in review, my Spotify rant and yeah, 00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:06.039 there's competing products out there. I love 00:13:06.039 --> 00:13:09.389 my Spotify. The 20 bucks a month we spend as 00:13:09.389 --> 00:13:12.090 a family plan, like we probably spend a hundred 00:13:12.090 --> 00:13:14.789 bucks a month. Easel. You know, I also grew up 00:13:14.789 --> 00:13:17.750 in the 1990s where CDs used to cost like $17. 00:13:18.490 --> 00:13:21.490 So it's ridiculous to me how cheap music is nowadays, 00:13:22.009 --> 00:13:24.230 but you know, given all of that, like that's 00:13:24.230 --> 00:13:27.110 a product that has clearly found fits with their 00:13:27.110 --> 00:13:29.889 customers. There's built a loyalty and so forth 00:13:29.889 --> 00:13:32.090 as part of that, even though there are, you know, 00:13:32.190 --> 00:13:34.230 Apple music and other competing services out 00:13:34.230 --> 00:13:36.600 there. They do it much more elegant. elegantly 00:13:36.600 --> 00:13:38.799 and they know your customer like that are the 00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:41.139 those are the type of experiences that you need 00:13:41.139 --> 00:13:43.200 to be able to strive for. We kind of touched 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:45.059 upon something interesting which is getting feedback 00:13:45.059 --> 00:13:47.700 and therefore learning from your customers. Now 00:13:47.700 --> 00:13:50.440 I want to make the jumps for AI or to AI because 00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:52.740 I know you're very passionate and vocal about 00:13:52.740 --> 00:13:55.860 it. How do you see this this whole AI evolution? 00:13:56.059 --> 00:13:58.539 Is it like a massive threat and we should all 00:13:58.539 --> 00:14:00.559 I don't know hide underneath our beds or something 00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:02.460 or actually should embrace it and just stick 00:14:02.460 --> 00:14:05.970 it in? I think the answer is we need to embrace 00:14:05.970 --> 00:14:07.730 it. Maybe we should be hiding under our beds. 00:14:07.850 --> 00:14:09.549 I don't know. Actually, I actually don't know 00:14:09.549 --> 00:14:11.610 how this is all going to play out again. I'm 00:14:11.610 --> 00:14:15.070 already kind of teased my age here, but I started 00:14:15.070 --> 00:14:18.610 school in the 90s and college and I had never 00:14:18.610 --> 00:14:21.409 used the internet before getting to school. I 00:14:21.409 --> 00:14:23.110 happened to be lucky enough to go to university 00:14:23.110 --> 00:14:25.909 of Illinois. And like the first time I went to 00:14:25.909 --> 00:14:29.649 school there, like as a freshman day one, like 00:14:29.870 --> 00:14:32.289 in the computer labs are like these browsers 00:14:32.289 --> 00:14:34.429 and these blue links and you click on things 00:14:34.429 --> 00:14:38.129 and it takes you places. I felt like I just had 00:14:38.129 --> 00:14:41.009 entered the future when I was there. And like, 00:14:41.070 --> 00:14:42.769 you know, and I went back home to tell my friends 00:14:42.769 --> 00:14:45.330 about it, like, you know, over, over the holidays 00:14:45.330 --> 00:14:46.710 and everything. And they're like, what are you 00:14:46.710 --> 00:14:48.809 talking about? Like it wasn't, and of course 00:14:48.809 --> 00:14:51.590 that played out and that's very much the world 00:14:51.590 --> 00:14:54.230 we're living in now. What we're seeing in AI 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:58.019 is so much bigger than the connectivity I think 00:14:58.019 --> 00:15:00.480 that we've had from the internet. For so many 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:02.840 years when I was at PayPal, there were some brilliant 00:15:02.840 --> 00:15:05.000 machine learning engineers that were there. They 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:07.600 were doing amazing things with the amount of 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:10.600 data that we have, with natural language processing, 00:15:10.759 --> 00:15:13.399 with all these different aspects of the broader 00:15:13.399 --> 00:15:17.120 world of artificial intelligence. And I'm not 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:19.879 an engineer by trade. As I started, I mean, I 00:15:19.879 --> 00:15:22.559 was a finance and accounting guy. going way back 00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:24.120 when. So like I can never do the things that 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:27.799 they did. But fast forward to today, and you 00:15:27.799 --> 00:15:30.960 have the most powerful models in the world that 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:34.259 the world has ever seen, that you can talk to 00:15:34.259 --> 00:15:37.899 in natural language, either by typing or by literally 00:15:37.899 --> 00:15:41.179 by voice. And you can use these tools for 20 00:15:41.179 --> 00:15:44.220 bucks a month. It is just mind blowing at like 00:15:44.220 --> 00:15:47.159 the amount of power that we have. I think people 00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:50.899 who are really into it, like myself, are seeing 00:15:50.899 --> 00:15:53.539 how it changes our workflows, things that we 00:15:53.539 --> 00:15:56.820 do with our families and just our lives in general. 00:15:57.019 --> 00:15:59.500 And the rest of the world hasn't fully caught 00:15:59.500 --> 00:16:03.220 on. I mean, I think chat GPT or OpenAI said chat 00:16:03.220 --> 00:16:06.259 GPT is like up to 300 million users now on there, 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:11.700 but that still is what? 4 % of the world's population 00:16:11.700 --> 00:16:14.440 or something like that. I mean, it's still a 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:16.860 tiny number if you consider what over half of 00:16:16.860 --> 00:16:19.909 the world is online. So most people are not using 00:16:19.909 --> 00:16:23.669 these tools. I think you are going to see the 00:16:23.669 --> 00:16:26.309 tools continue to improve. I do believe that's 00:16:26.309 --> 00:16:29.230 going to happen. And I do think even more than 00:16:29.230 --> 00:16:32.529 that, we're going to figure out even more how 00:16:32.529 --> 00:16:35.149 we could use these tools more effectively. We're 00:16:35.149 --> 00:16:36.909 going to learn from each other. Like even if 00:16:36.909 --> 00:16:39.029 the tools didn't improve today, there's so much 00:16:39.029 --> 00:16:42.389 more gain that we have in front of us. So what 00:16:42.389 --> 00:16:45.850 that means is... Look, they're not taking our 00:16:45.850 --> 00:16:50.269 jobs yet. Could they? Possibly. Yeah. Um, more 00:16:50.269 --> 00:16:52.789 likely though is our jobs are going to evolve 00:16:52.789 --> 00:16:55.149 and they're going to greatly evolve and greatly 00:16:55.149 --> 00:16:59.590 change. Um, just like if you were doing things, 00:16:59.830 --> 00:17:03.870 you know, if, if you're a sales person and it's 00:17:03.870 --> 00:17:09.190 1996, let's say, and you've said, Oh, my job's 00:17:09.190 --> 00:17:11.170 not going to change it all over the next 10 years. 00:17:11.329 --> 00:17:13.440 Well, you would have been very wrong. of that 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:15.319 because like you're probably doing a lot more 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:16.960 email, you're probably doing a lot more of this 00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:19.839 or whatever else like is part of that process. 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:23.660 If you're in sales today, like I think the human 00:17:23.660 --> 00:17:26.019 experience, the one -on -one connection does 00:17:26.019 --> 00:17:29.099 matter, but you can have an AI that's listening 00:17:29.099 --> 00:17:31.839 in on your sales calls and evaluating you on 00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:33.519 how you're doing your performance so you can 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:37.220 improve that. You can have it updating your CRM. 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:40.599 automatically based on the notes for those calls 00:17:40.599 --> 00:17:42.759 or whatever it might be. And like, there's just 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:45.400 so many different use cases. And I think what's 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:47.779 important for all of us is to stay on top of 00:17:47.779 --> 00:17:50.180 this within our personal lives, within our business 00:17:50.180 --> 00:17:53.039 lives, to just really embrace the tools that 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:54.680 are out there. Know that they're going to change. 00:17:54.819 --> 00:17:57.079 Know that they're going to improve. But even 00:17:57.079 --> 00:17:59.900 today, I think no matter what your job is, if 00:17:59.900 --> 00:18:03.579 you just spent three, four, five hours with these 00:18:03.579 --> 00:18:06.549 tools, You could really start to uncover, oh 00:18:06.549 --> 00:18:08.430 my gosh, I didn't know that that was possible. 00:18:08.529 --> 00:18:10.730 I used to do things this way. Now I can do things 00:18:10.730 --> 00:18:14.250 this way. And that is going to be essential for 00:18:14.250 --> 00:18:16.690 anybody who's out there to really, you know, 00:18:16.890 --> 00:18:20.490 stay on top of this to, to make sure. Yeah. Like, 00:18:20.490 --> 00:18:24.630 like my job is going to evolve. My job is not 00:18:24.630 --> 00:18:28.750 going to just go away when these models. I read 00:18:28.750 --> 00:18:31.450 somewhere about a comparison to the, and that 00:18:31.450 --> 00:18:34.279 was when, you know, cars were in events. and 00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:36.640 how in 20 years, but again it was a slower adoption, 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:39.440 20 years everyone went from having a horse and 00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:41.599 a carriage to actually having a car. We're thinking 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:44.240 about having a car. And of course with the move 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:46.220 from one industry to the other, you had a lot 00:18:46.220 --> 00:18:48.000 of jobs that literally just disappeared. You 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:50.039 don't have that many settle makers, you don't 00:18:50.039 --> 00:18:52.220 have that many, you know, people putting horseshoes 00:18:52.220 --> 00:18:53.859 onto horses because you don't have them either. 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:56.420 But you do have the transformation of those industries 00:18:56.420 --> 00:18:58.700 into becoming mechanics. Maybe now they're just 00:18:58.700 --> 00:19:00.859 selling tires instead of selling horseshoes. 00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:02.319 And yeah, I agree with you. I think that's probably 00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:03.380 what's going to happen. We're going to have a 00:19:03.380 --> 00:19:05.920 lot of transformation, but positive transformation. 00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:08.019 People will continue being people, so we're going 00:19:08.019 --> 00:19:10.200 to need people, right? So that's probably not 00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:13.019 going to change. I was talking to somebody about 00:19:13.019 --> 00:19:14.980 this just recently. We're using the example of 00:19:14.980 --> 00:19:17.319 McDonald's. And now, like in most McDonald's, 00:19:17.339 --> 00:19:19.559 there is a self -service kiosk where you just 00:19:19.559 --> 00:19:21.680 punch in your order versus a person you're talking 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:24.539 to. So that job has been eliminated. Keep playing 00:19:24.539 --> 00:19:26.839 this out and then, okay, well. Are they going 00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:29.420 to eventually, if you're flipping burgers over, 00:19:29.500 --> 00:19:31.660 if you're cleaning the tables, like all of these 00:19:31.660 --> 00:19:35.359 things could become robotic. So what does McDonald's 00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:37.640 look like 20, 30 years from now? Like who's employed 00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:40.019 at a McDonald's? Is it nobody? I don't think 00:19:40.019 --> 00:19:42.819 it's nobody. I think it might just be people 00:19:42.819 --> 00:19:45.460 repairing the robots and fixing these things 00:19:45.460 --> 00:19:47.519 and restocking and doing the things that actually 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:49.660 are really hard for robots to do potentially. 00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:52.000 And, you know, is that going to be more or less 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:54.680 employees than today? I don't know. I mean, it 00:19:54.680 --> 00:19:56.920 might mean, you know, just look at the parallel 00:19:56.920 --> 00:20:00.819 to the ATM. So the concept of ATM machines, which 00:20:00.819 --> 00:20:03.740 was introduced in like the 1970s, people thought 00:20:03.740 --> 00:20:07.339 like bank tellers jobs are done. Of course, there 00:20:07.339 --> 00:20:08.859 are more in the United States, at least there 00:20:08.859 --> 00:20:11.900 are more bank tellers than there were today. 00:20:11.900 --> 00:20:13.579 There are more bank tellers today than there 00:20:13.579 --> 00:20:16.799 were in the 1970s. And well, why is that if the 00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:19.799 ATM existed? Well, their jobs changed. They morphed. 00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:22.769 It became something new. And also it enabled 00:20:22.769 --> 00:20:26.069 banks to open up more and smaller bank branches 00:20:26.069 --> 00:20:28.190 where they don't need as many people. So like 00:20:28.190 --> 00:20:30.049 maybe that's true for McDonald's. Like they're 00:20:30.049 --> 00:20:31.930 going to have a bunch more McDonald's on there 00:20:31.930 --> 00:20:34.230 because like they only need to have three employees 00:20:34.230 --> 00:20:36.869 instead of eight or 10 or whatever it might be. 00:20:36.990 --> 00:20:38.970 Is that a good thing? I don't know. But like, 00:20:38.970 --> 00:20:41.289 like these are the types of changes I think we're 00:20:41.289 --> 00:20:43.470 going to be saying. Is this about the knowledge 00:20:43.470 --> 00:20:46.309 and access to it? Not just access to information, 00:20:46.369 --> 00:20:48.589 but the ability to process information and actually 00:20:48.589 --> 00:20:50.890 action information as well. Because when the 00:20:50.890 --> 00:20:52.690 internet first started, I was like, oh, we can 00:20:52.690 --> 00:20:55.190 now find things online. Now we can now interact 00:20:55.190 --> 00:20:56.730 with people. But all of a sudden, it's like, 00:20:56.769 --> 00:20:58.789 actually, I can take all this information, I 00:20:58.789 --> 00:21:00.490 can take all this knowledge, and actually make 00:21:00.490 --> 00:21:02.869 my computer do something for me based on that 00:21:02.869 --> 00:21:05.470 and do it exactly what I need it to do. And that 00:21:05.470 --> 00:21:08.269 is incredibly powerful, isn't it? Like, I see 00:21:08.269 --> 00:21:10.309 through my working day, it's like I do so much 00:21:10.309 --> 00:21:13.150 stuff with AI that will take me hours and probably 00:21:13.150 --> 00:21:15.190 weeks to do before. And I was like, click a button, 00:21:15.250 --> 00:21:18.529 here you go. Awesome. So my ability to work just... 00:21:18.589 --> 00:21:20.630 went, I don't know, a thousand times bigger. 00:21:20.849 --> 00:21:23.650 So it's just quite, quite powerful. In my workflow, 00:21:23.809 --> 00:21:26.930 I write a lot and I constantly am using it for 00:21:26.930 --> 00:21:29.509 writing. I will use tools like perplexity to 00:21:29.509 --> 00:21:31.910 find information, but then I will use the AI 00:21:31.910 --> 00:21:33.950 tools to edit my writing all the time. I will, 00:21:33.950 --> 00:21:36.089 I will like, one of the first things I do whenever 00:21:36.089 --> 00:21:37.910 I'm done writing something is I'll throw it in 00:21:37.910 --> 00:21:39.970 Claude and I'll be like, Hey Claude, fact check 00:21:39.970 --> 00:21:42.690 this for me. Which I know seems crazy to have 00:21:42.690 --> 00:21:45.069 an AI model do that, but like, if it sees something 00:21:45.069 --> 00:21:47.680 I'm wrong, if I'm misquoting something. It'll 00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:49.500 usually it'll like lay out. Well, these are what 00:21:49.500 --> 00:21:51.559 I think the facts are These are the things like 00:21:51.559 --> 00:21:53.519 that might be wrong and I'm like, okay. Well, 00:21:53.619 --> 00:21:55.420 maybe I did get that wrong I should probably 00:21:55.420 --> 00:21:58.160 go look into that a little bit more and then 00:21:58.160 --> 00:22:01.059 you know, it's just turn after turn after turn 00:22:01.059 --> 00:22:04.299 that I do on this and You know if I could afford 00:22:04.299 --> 00:22:07.240 to have a full -time human editor at all times 00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:10.319 doing this would like Just have a free newsletter. 00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:13.460 I'm not going to do that, but this enables so 00:22:13.460 --> 00:22:16.119 much more to happen and just with really quick 00:22:16.119 --> 00:22:18.539 and rapid iterations. And again, that's just 00:22:18.539 --> 00:22:21.119 for writing. You're right. Apply this to any 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:24.019 function, any type of knowledge work or function 00:22:24.019 --> 00:22:27.099 that is out there. You're going to find so many 00:22:27.099 --> 00:22:29.799 different use cases just once you start to open 00:22:29.799 --> 00:22:31.619 your eyes and become familiar with what these 00:22:31.619 --> 00:22:34.440 tools can do. I have an interesting question 00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:37.769 for you because I know you also teach. Now, students, 00:22:37.849 --> 00:22:40.650 you know, traditionally were taught to memorize 00:22:40.650 --> 00:22:44.269 this and kind of show us what you managed to 00:22:44.269 --> 00:22:45.789 memorize. Now, obviously, that's not the right 00:22:45.789 --> 00:22:48.650 way to do things anymore. Now, with the intellectual 00:22:48.650 --> 00:22:51.390 and intellectual but much of AI models, that 00:22:51.390 --> 00:22:54.789 massively changed. Has education, you know, started 00:22:54.789 --> 00:22:56.869 to embrace that? The fact that people are more 00:22:56.869 --> 00:22:59.430 operated instead of just holders of information? 00:22:59.589 --> 00:23:01.609 Or is this still very traditional from your perspective? 00:23:02.490 --> 00:23:05.250 Look, I mean, it's like to take the historical 00:23:05.250 --> 00:23:07.450 perspective. But if you would say like, what 00:23:07.450 --> 00:23:11.210 was an intelligent person 500 years ago, or whenever 00:23:11.210 --> 00:23:13.269 it might be, often it would be something like, 00:23:13.269 --> 00:23:16.289 it's the person who's memorized the Bible. Like 00:23:16.289 --> 00:23:18.289 memorization was that because like, you know, 00:23:18.410 --> 00:23:21.809 500 plus years ago was around the time of the 00:23:21.809 --> 00:23:23.970 printing press, the likes were not common, they're 00:23:23.970 --> 00:23:26.990 extremely expensive. And oh my gosh, the person 00:23:26.990 --> 00:23:30.279 memorized the Bible. That's great. If you Memorize 00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:32.599 the Bible or whatever, like more power to you. 00:23:32.700 --> 00:23:34.359 But like, nobody would say like, my God, you're 00:23:34.359 --> 00:23:36.500 the smartest person around. I mean, you might 00:23:36.500 --> 00:23:39.140 be, but, but like, like it's more of a parlor 00:23:39.140 --> 00:23:41.039 trick today. Like, like, you know, there's a, 00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:42.920 there's a book called moonwalking with Einstein. 00:23:43.160 --> 00:23:45.799 And it's actually all about memory competitions. 00:23:46.200 --> 00:23:48.240 In fact, it was a great book came out, you know, 00:23:48.259 --> 00:23:50.700 10 plus years ago. Um, but, but again, it's a, 00:23:50.700 --> 00:23:53.740 it's a sideshow because like we, as a society 00:23:53.740 --> 00:23:56.660 have set, you know, we used to think that memory. 00:23:56.839 --> 00:24:00.220 And memorizing things was the mark of true intelligence. 00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:05.079 Now, again, not so much because we have, we have 00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:07.259 devices that will memorize things for us. We 00:24:07.259 --> 00:24:09.440 have books that are readily available. We get 00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:11.559 to search whatever we want to, whenever we want 00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:14.480 to on the internet. So access to information 00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:18.700 isn't the problem it used to be. Looking at where 00:24:18.700 --> 00:24:21.599 schools are at today and where this is going 00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:25.670 to go and how we think about that, I think. You 00:24:25.670 --> 00:24:27.970 know, let's just take computer science, for example. 00:24:28.309 --> 00:24:31.309 A lot of what a university would do in the past, 00:24:31.329 --> 00:24:35.190 and even some would say, it's teaching you how 00:24:35.190 --> 00:24:38.089 to build programs, teaching you, you know, Python 00:24:38.089 --> 00:24:41.349 or teaching you C++ or computer languages and 00:24:41.349 --> 00:24:43.890 all this other kind of stuff is part of that. 00:24:45.190 --> 00:24:48.809 And I think, look, I think it's great to learn 00:24:48.809 --> 00:24:51.529 a computer language, but when you have a model 00:24:51.529 --> 00:24:56.970 like Claude or Cursor or whatever bolts, which 00:24:56.970 --> 00:24:58.890 is a new product that a lot of people are talking 00:24:58.890 --> 00:25:05.569 about. They can code extremely well. So the skill 00:25:05.569 --> 00:25:08.950 that will matter going forward isn't necessarily, 00:25:08.950 --> 00:25:12.670 I know how to manipulate Excel and all the formulas 00:25:12.670 --> 00:25:15.730 in Excel, or I know I need to, I know how to 00:25:15.730 --> 00:25:17.730 do this, whatever it might be. I think it's going 00:25:17.730 --> 00:25:19.900 to be much more like I know how to think like 00:25:19.900 --> 00:25:22.900 an engineer. I know how to have a logical thought 00:25:22.900 --> 00:25:26.440 process like an engineer, like an economist, 00:25:26.700 --> 00:25:30.980 like an accountant, like a lawyer. Take whatever 00:25:30.980 --> 00:25:34.220 discipline you want. And I think what is going 00:25:34.220 --> 00:25:38.640 to matter the most going forward is really the 00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:41.180 thought process that you have behind these things. 00:25:42.779 --> 00:25:46.240 Because the grunt work isn't going to be, you 00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:49.390 know, When we look at grunt work, this is going 00:25:49.390 --> 00:25:51.430 to be stuff that's easily done by computers. 00:25:52.069 --> 00:25:55.210 We're going to be much more directors of whatever 00:25:55.210 --> 00:25:58.089 experiences we have. They could be literally 00:25:58.089 --> 00:26:00.849 director of a film that you're having an AI develop 00:26:00.849 --> 00:26:02.529 and you say, well, let's move the camera here. 00:26:02.630 --> 00:26:04.829 Let's do this. And you're adding your taste from 00:26:04.829 --> 00:26:08.549 that perspective. Or it could even be, hey, ChatGPT, 00:26:08.890 --> 00:26:10.509 here are five different companies I want you 00:26:10.509 --> 00:26:12.509 to evaluate. I want to buy one of their stocks. 00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:14.339 And it's going to give you that. And you're going 00:26:14.339 --> 00:26:16.779 to have to ask the right questions and, and really 00:26:16.779 --> 00:26:18.559 think through that process. Cause yes, it could 00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:21.079 say, well, this is the best stock to buy. But 00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:23.420 in reality, it's never going to be able to fully 00:26:23.420 --> 00:26:26.180 get into your head. To know your true motivations 00:26:26.180 --> 00:26:28.920 and all this other stuff is part of that. So 00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:31.420 I think it's really important, like for us to 00:26:31.420 --> 00:26:35.819 learn how to think logically or whatever is the 00:26:35.819 --> 00:26:38.259 most important, like thought process. That is 00:26:38.259 --> 00:26:39.980 what should be taught in schools. And like that 00:26:39.980 --> 00:26:42.420 is really what's going to cultivate that. Not 00:26:42.420 --> 00:26:44.680 just from schools, but you know, in your professional 00:26:44.680 --> 00:26:47.200 career, how do you cultivate the thinking, the 00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.559 ability to actually think about a problem, manage 00:26:49.559 --> 00:26:51.140 to fix it without just saying, oh yeah, let's 00:26:51.140 --> 00:26:52.640 just, I don't know. This is what I was taught 00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:54.420 in school. So we always work. Hey, look, if I 00:26:54.420 --> 00:26:58.259 was a teacher, I would start the year with, um, 00:26:58.359 --> 00:27:01.119 giving my students a questionnaire. I would say, 00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:04.539 Hey, who are your three best friends? What are 00:27:04.539 --> 00:27:06.940 your, and this could be true for any grade level. 00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:09.279 Mind you, now who are your three best friends? 00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:11.460 Where do you grow up? What do you aspire to do 00:27:11.460 --> 00:27:13.220 in your life? What do you like to do in your 00:27:13.220 --> 00:27:15.200 free time? Blah, blah, blah. And let's just say 00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:17.420 I'm teaching math. I would then have a large 00:27:17.420 --> 00:27:21.539 language model. Basically input all of that information 00:27:21.539 --> 00:27:23.940 about the students and every time I'm handing 00:27:23.940 --> 00:27:26.960 out homework. I would actually do homework that 00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:30.119 is customized for their own experiences. So if 00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:32.799 my daughter is into stage acting, which she is, 00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:35.420 I would be asking a whole bunch of math questions 00:27:35.420 --> 00:27:39.319 to her uniquely that would be bringing in aspects 00:27:39.319 --> 00:27:42.420 of acting and all of these things that are really 00:27:42.420 --> 00:27:44.680 things that excite her. When you are tapping 00:27:44.680 --> 00:27:48.420 into somebody's personal passion, that is what 00:27:48.420 --> 00:27:50.819 matters more than anything. And that's one thing 00:27:50.819 --> 00:27:54.480 for teachers. These large language models enable 00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:57.640 us to do. There's no reason why you have to give 00:27:57.640 --> 00:28:00.559 30 students in your class the exact same questions. 00:28:01.259 --> 00:28:03.940 You can give them all individualized tests or 00:28:03.940 --> 00:28:06.799 quizzes or whatever that are tailored to them 00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:08.799 about what it is. Now, of course, you got to 00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:10.480 figure out, well, what's going to be fair, whatever, 00:28:10.839 --> 00:28:12.579 whatever. We could figure that stuff out. But 00:28:12.579 --> 00:28:15.299 like more importantly is like Can you get these 00:28:15.299 --> 00:28:17.660 students to learn better, more effectively by 00:28:17.660 --> 00:28:19.920 like literally talking to them in their own language? 00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:21.859 And it might even literally be in their own language. 00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:25.240 Let's say, you know, they're a non -native English 00:28:25.240 --> 00:28:28.420 speaker and in school that is primarily English. 00:28:28.579 --> 00:28:30.579 Is it more important than that math class that 00:28:30.579 --> 00:28:34.400 they focus on their English skills? Or is it 00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:37.099 you could actually give them math problems in 00:28:37.099 --> 00:28:41.299 Portuguese or in Mandarin or in whatever. And 00:28:41.299 --> 00:28:44.000 I as a teacher don't speak that. But like I could 00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:45.619 have a large language model. I should turn that 00:28:45.619 --> 00:28:49.140 out for them. Amazing. Like let's do that. Like 00:28:49.140 --> 00:28:51.400 that will help them. I mean, they can still have 00:28:51.400 --> 00:28:53.779 English class, but in math, I just care about 00:28:53.779 --> 00:28:55.940 the principles. I care about the thought process 00:28:55.940 --> 00:28:58.859 and let's use that as much as we possibly can. 00:28:59.380 --> 00:29:04.490 Like those are things that like are really enabling 00:29:04.490 --> 00:29:07.690 today people to grow more and define passion 00:29:07.690 --> 00:29:10.690 in place. It's like a great teacher matters more 00:29:10.690 --> 00:29:12.990 than just about anything that you could have 00:29:12.990 --> 00:29:15.990 in life to give you that passion to learn about 00:29:15.990 --> 00:29:18.750 that and learn those thought processes. Like 00:29:18.750 --> 00:29:22.049 again, I think these language models for the 00:29:22.049 --> 00:29:24.529 right teachers can be the unlock to enable those 00:29:24.529 --> 00:29:26.049 kinds of things to happen. Mike, I always want 00:29:26.049 --> 00:29:28.029 to, I always like asking this question, which 00:29:28.029 --> 00:29:30.509 is what excites you about the future? Cause we 00:29:30.509 --> 00:29:32.480 have so much going on right now. What's that 00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:34.339 one thing that makes you get out of bed every 00:29:34.339 --> 00:29:36.539 morning apart from dealing with your phone or 00:29:36.539 --> 00:29:40.299 something? Yeah, look, I mean, it is AI. It's 00:29:40.299 --> 00:29:43.319 where these models are taking us. Um, and it's 00:29:43.319 --> 00:29:46.140 specifically the area of health and wellness. 00:29:46.460 --> 00:29:48.839 That's actually what excites me the most. I have 00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:51.799 a custom GPT set up, like just set for myself 00:29:51.799 --> 00:29:55.039 with ChatGPT. I actually got a DEXA scan. It's 00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:56.960 like this thing you lay down on a table, they 00:29:56.960 --> 00:29:59.039 scan your entire body. Then it's like how much 00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:01.990 fat, how much bone, how much... muscle, all this 00:30:01.990 --> 00:30:04.609 other kind of stuff. And I get these every three 00:30:04.609 --> 00:30:07.650 months. I load it into ChatGPT. I get all these 00:30:07.650 --> 00:30:10.230 other things in there. It knows so much. It knows 00:30:10.230 --> 00:30:12.869 more about me than my doctor ever could. Like 00:30:12.869 --> 00:30:15.109 just like realistically, but like a doctor in 00:30:15.109 --> 00:30:18.910 the United States has probably three, 400 patients 00:30:18.910 --> 00:30:21.990 in most offices. They don't have time to know 00:30:21.990 --> 00:30:24.170 all of this about you. I see my regular doctor 00:30:24.170 --> 00:30:27.609 15 minutes a year. But my AI has infinite patience 00:30:27.609 --> 00:30:30.869 and infinite focus towards me. And I could ask 00:30:30.869 --> 00:30:34.130 it any question I want about my diets. I could 00:30:34.130 --> 00:30:36.450 take a picture of a menu and say, Hey, given 00:30:36.450 --> 00:30:37.769 this, like, what's the best thing that I should 00:30:37.769 --> 00:30:40.049 eat on here? Um, or like, what are the top three 00:30:40.049 --> 00:30:41.789 things or whatever? And it could kind of narrow 00:30:41.789 --> 00:30:43.609 things down for me and say, you know, based on 00:30:43.609 --> 00:30:45.569 your goals, based on your diet, based on your 00:30:45.569 --> 00:30:47.549 latest blood tests, like this is what you should 00:30:47.549 --> 00:30:50.190 focus on. There's so many ways you could do that. 00:30:50.410 --> 00:30:53.630 And this is just me working with the $20 a month. 00:30:53.980 --> 00:30:57.099 off the shelf, you know, chat GPT model that 00:30:57.099 --> 00:30:59.339 I kind of created for myself. Like you can have 00:30:59.339 --> 00:31:01.660 whole companies built off this and people are 00:31:01.660 --> 00:31:04.759 starting to, but I think we're just at the very 00:31:04.759 --> 00:31:08.220 earliest phases of like this really customized 00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:10.640 experience. And then in the United States, we 00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:15.000 spend almost 20 % of our GDP on medical related 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:19.059 expenses. And we're just so inefficient. We don't 00:31:19.059 --> 00:31:22.369 have the outcomes that here. And now you. At 00:31:22.369 --> 00:31:25.869 least a decent doctor in your pockets and potentially 00:31:25.869 --> 00:31:29.490 a doctor that could almost be world -class. I'm 00:31:29.490 --> 00:31:31.470 not saying doctors are going away. They're not. 00:31:31.690 --> 00:31:34.230 The human element really, really matters. But 00:31:34.230 --> 00:31:36.869 like, if I'm traveling the other side of the 00:31:36.869 --> 00:31:39.670 world, I can't just have my doctor like on call 00:31:39.670 --> 00:31:43.490 24 seven. Like that's not realistic or any, any 00:31:43.490 --> 00:31:45.230 little thing that appears on my skin. I'm like, 00:31:45.269 --> 00:31:46.990 wait, what is this thing? I can literally just 00:31:46.990 --> 00:31:49.509 snap a picture and ask, ask an AI and it's going 00:31:49.509 --> 00:31:53.099 to give me. pretty accurate answer. Again, there's 00:31:53.099 --> 00:31:56.240 not medical advice. Like people still need to 00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:57.980 see their doctor, but the direction that we're 00:31:57.980 --> 00:32:01.519 going for this thing. Oh my gosh. Like it's pretty 00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:04.720 incredible. I was reading somewhere that, um, 00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:06.380 he came down to nutrition and the conversation 00:32:06.380 --> 00:32:09.299 was about nutrition at this point. And they said 00:32:09.299 --> 00:32:12.099 that whatever you learn in medical school is, 00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:13.859 and when you actually start seeing the doctor, 00:32:14.059 --> 00:32:16.960 that's knowledge that's 15 years old. Yeah. When 00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:19.339 you ask a doctor for nutritional advice. still 00:32:19.339 --> 00:32:21.079 tell you the basics that they learned and it 00:32:21.079 --> 00:32:22.779 was taught to them by teachers quite a lot of 00:32:22.779 --> 00:32:24.900 time. You're learning something from 50 years 00:32:24.900 --> 00:32:26.960 ago without actually encompassing everything 00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:29.279 that has actually massively changed. People actually 00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:31.339 found a lot of research on it and then a lot 00:32:31.339 --> 00:32:33.420 of research on it. But when you talk about that 00:32:33.420 --> 00:32:35.640 model, you just sucked it up and you incorporate 00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:38.539 that into chat GPT or whatever it might be. It's 00:32:38.539 --> 00:32:40.339 transformative. They can just say, look, the 00:32:40.339 --> 00:32:43.140 latest research actually shows that you shouldn't 00:32:43.140 --> 00:32:45.240 eat frozen food all the time and fast food is 00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:47.170 actually not that good for you. trying some more 00:32:47.170 --> 00:32:49.269 vegetables and stuff like that. And here's why. 00:32:49.329 --> 00:32:51.910 Um, so it's actually quite powerful that isn't 00:32:51.910 --> 00:32:54.410 it? Absolutely. Well, look, look, I, I grew up 00:32:54.410 --> 00:32:57.910 in the 1990s and what are the eighties and nineties. 00:32:57.930 --> 00:33:01.309 It was a time of the, uh, like the snack well 00:33:01.309 --> 00:33:02.869 generation. I don't know if you know what these 00:33:02.869 --> 00:33:05.390 were, but basically this was a time where fat 00:33:05.390 --> 00:33:08.369 was like fat, fat was evil. Fat would make you 00:33:08.369 --> 00:33:11.589 fat was the belief. There are cookies that they 00:33:11.589 --> 00:33:14.500 would remove all of the all of the fat and just 00:33:14.500 --> 00:33:16.420 throw more sugar into these things. More and 00:33:16.420 --> 00:33:18.339 more sugar. Like there's fat free this, fat free 00:33:18.339 --> 00:33:20.819 this, whatever else. And like, and look, these 00:33:20.819 --> 00:33:23.339 things get locked. Even if you're not a, you 00:33:23.339 --> 00:33:24.900 know, even if you're not in medical school, just 00:33:24.900 --> 00:33:27.759 for like, as a citizen, to just be able to say, 00:33:27.900 --> 00:33:30.299 hey, you know, based on the latest research, 00:33:30.539 --> 00:33:32.500 like based on what we know today, what do you 00:33:32.500 --> 00:33:34.740 think about my diet? I'm going to just log what 00:33:34.740 --> 00:33:36.619 I eat for a week. Like, what could I be doing 00:33:36.619 --> 00:33:39.779 better on that? Like, there's so much value in 00:33:39.779 --> 00:33:43.919 that. Just to have, like, and for a doctor, It's 00:33:43.919 --> 00:33:47.140 impossible to keep up with all of the latest 00:33:47.140 --> 00:33:49.960 research and publications. Like physically, no 00:33:49.960 --> 00:33:51.660 one would have the time to read through all that, 00:33:51.799 --> 00:33:54.460 but an AI could. And if I'm a doctor that just 00:33:54.460 --> 00:33:57.900 has an AI in my ear and or in the room and I'm 00:33:57.900 --> 00:34:00.940 talking to a patient and after that, or at the 00:34:00.940 --> 00:34:02.940 end of the day, I might say, Hey, like anything 00:34:02.940 --> 00:34:05.460 like I can improve on and what I'm saying, well, 00:34:05.859 --> 00:34:08.019 like, Hey, you actually told, you know, you told 00:34:08.019 --> 00:34:10.980 Mike. that this, well, actually most of the research 00:34:10.980 --> 00:34:12.880 today is actually pointing in a different direction. 00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:15.519 Do you want me to tell you more about that? And 00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:18.219 like, those are amazing types of tools that would 00:34:18.219 --> 00:34:20.380 be available. Like again, some people might find 00:34:20.380 --> 00:34:21.800 that threatening, like, well, what does this 00:34:21.800 --> 00:34:24.119 computer know? Well, the computer has access 00:34:24.119 --> 00:34:26.840 to all the world's knowledge, where we as humans 00:34:26.840 --> 00:34:29.840 would never be able to access that. So I hope 00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:32.960 we can use these for good, and medicine, just 00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:35.019 like what you're striving for. It's funny, I 00:34:35.019 --> 00:34:36.679 was just thinking about the tic -tacs, right? 00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:39.260 Those little small mints. And apparently they 00:34:39.260 --> 00:34:43.059 classify it as zero calories. Because anything 00:34:43.059 --> 00:34:45.539 in the US that has less than two calories is 00:34:45.539 --> 00:34:47.179 literally, it's fine. You can eat it because 00:34:47.179 --> 00:34:49.380 they don't classify it as a calorie. But if you 00:34:49.380 --> 00:34:51.539 get the whole package, see, that has a lot of 00:34:51.539 --> 00:34:53.860 sugar. But it's technically zero calories in 00:34:53.860 --> 00:34:56.139 as many as you want. Is that 100 % accurate? 00:34:56.219 --> 00:35:00.480 Probably not. No, that's hilarious. Yeah, you 00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:03.539 round down. And it's zero and the serving size 00:35:03.539 --> 00:35:05.480 is one, which of course nobody does. And then 00:35:05.480 --> 00:35:07.219 you just eat the whole package of them. And you're 00:35:07.219 --> 00:35:09.039 like, oh yeah, it was, it was free calories. 00:35:09.760 --> 00:35:14.539 I'm putting on weight every day. So it's basically 00:35:14.539 --> 00:35:16.460 things like that actually make a big difference. 00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:18.800 Um, I always enjoy asking this question, which 00:35:18.800 --> 00:35:21.440 is what's the latest book you read? Or the most 00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:24.739 impactful book you read. Oh, it's actually, it's, 00:35:24.739 --> 00:35:26.460 it's really funny. You said that because I'm, 00:35:26.500 --> 00:35:29.920 um, I'm going to get two, an AI one and a non 00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:33.329 AI one. For AI, I'm actually writing an article 00:35:33.329 --> 00:35:36.130 right now, which I'll release next week on, um, 00:35:36.230 --> 00:35:38.949 my favorite AI books of 2024. I actually got 00:35:38.949 --> 00:35:42.170 one right here. So, so I visual aid, you didn't 00:35:42.170 --> 00:35:43.469 know I was going to have that, but I happen to 00:35:43.469 --> 00:35:46.570 have it handy. So co -intelligence by Ethan Smollick. 00:35:46.869 --> 00:35:49.349 Ethan does the best blog, I think, out there. 00:35:49.449 --> 00:35:51.530 He's a professor at Wharton, does the best blog 00:35:51.530 --> 00:35:55.710 on AI. And if you're in the world of AI, like 00:35:55.710 --> 00:35:58.570 me, I took a lot out of his book. There's so 00:35:58.570 --> 00:36:01.280 much great information. But he also explains 00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:05.119 things in very readable, human, simple terms. 00:36:05.659 --> 00:36:08.280 Like, so just really powerful, impactful. Like 00:36:08.280 --> 00:36:12.039 if you're to read one AI book, Co -Intelligence 00:36:12.039 --> 00:36:16.440 by Ethan is just phenomenal. The other one I'll 00:36:16.440 --> 00:36:19.119 recommend, totally not related to AI, is called 00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:22.300 Same As Ever by Morgan Housel. It came out last 00:36:22.300 --> 00:36:27.320 year and I just decided, so I read it again recently. 00:36:27.480 --> 00:36:28.699 I'm like, I think I'm just going to read this 00:36:28.699 --> 00:36:31.079 book every year. Just because there's so much 00:36:31.079 --> 00:36:33.360 in it, like the stories he tells are amazing. 00:36:33.920 --> 00:36:37.039 Effectively, it's the story of the book and the 00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:40.480 thesis of the book is people don't change. Like 00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:43.280 what we do, our motivations, all of these things 00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:46.360 that we think are new, the desires we have, like 00:36:46.360 --> 00:36:48.199 all of these things just been around forever. 00:36:48.840 --> 00:36:50.780 And as you start to kind of look at the patterns 00:36:50.780 --> 00:36:53.519 of this, the world and especially the future. 00:36:53.710 --> 00:36:56.269 makes more sense like he always says like if 00:36:56.269 --> 00:36:57.949 you want to be able to predict the future you 00:36:57.949 --> 00:37:00.510 should read history and you know these are the 00:37:00.510 --> 00:37:03.650 kind of things and and same as ever is an amazing 00:37:03.650 --> 00:37:07.250 amazing book he's a great great writer as well 00:37:07.250 --> 00:37:10.010 really great stories like thank you so much for 00:37:10.010 --> 00:37:12.010 timing for these wonderful recommendations it's 00:37:12.010 --> 00:37:14.010 been a great a pleasure having you on the podcast 00:37:14.010 --> 00:37:16.030 ricardo and this is a lot of fun thanks for having 00:37:16.030 --> 00:37:20.010 me thank you all right the podcast is also sponsored 00:37:20.010 --> 00:37:22.960 by notion .so Notion is offering 6 months for 00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:25.420 free for new users. 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