Welcome to the Innovation Conversation, a podcast
about innovators, both in business and real life.
Hosted by myself, Ricardo Rescual and Harry McCona.
This podcast is also sponsored by ODEV Tech.
ODEV Tech is your premier software development
partner. Make sure you check them out at odev
.tech. The podcast is also sponsored by Notion
.so. Notion is offering six months for free for
new users. Make sure you check out our website,
thestoreofevents .co .uk to read in the software.
Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Innovation
Conversation. Today we are joined by Rachel Murphy.
Rachel, welcome to the podcast. Hey, Ricardo.
Delighted to... Pleasure having you here, Rachel.
Would you like to introduce yourself to the audience,
please? Love to. So my name is Rachel. I am currently
founder of a... company called The Grafter twice
exited founder. Previous businesses were both
in and around healthcare and consultancy. And
how did it get started? Because it's a very long
journey. I know you've done quite a lot of stuff.
You're kind of underplaying it now, but I know
you have a really history to share with the audience.
So would you like to tell us a bit more, please?
Yeah, yeah, of course. So I started, I guess
I started my career as an interim. So I'd never
worked permanently for anybody until I built
a company myself. And my motivation really was
about getting as many skills as possible from
a consulting perspective. And so I ended up running
various programs initially and then entire kind
of business units and then businesses. So I've
worked across public and private sector, worked
for most of the big five and my career started
probably more on the private sector, done a fair
bit in telecoms, IT resellers, managed service
companies. And then I did my first CIO role in
local government. Many years ago now, about 15
years ago. And I totally sort of fell in love
with transforming business units and that got
bigger and became businesses. Really ended up
doing was CIO for Department for Education, ran
these services business for Keir, the construction
company. Ran the services business for CDW, who
were an international IT services outfit. And
then went in and led the patient facing transformation
of the NHS. So built the NHS and totally fell
in love with healthcare. It's been quite a journey.
While a lot of important things, I mean, the
NHS app is huge, everyone's kind of using it.
I use it all the time, to be honest. So it's,
you know, transformative, how many things we
can actually do. Yeah, it's interesting, Ricardo,
because I think there's plenty of programs of
work in government that talk a good game about
transformation. There's few that are legitimately
transforming of services. I was reading a YouGov
poll the other day, and the NHS app is in the
top 20 apps across the UK that are used, which
is pretty massive when you think about it, because
you've got things like WhatsApp on there, Deliveroo,
so you've got everything on there, but yes, we've
got 40 million people using the app. It's absolutely
amazing what you've done. Right now, I know you're
doing your own thing. So how, how has that transitioned
from, you know, working for the government, but
then transitioning to actually running your own
business, exiting your own business as well?
How did that happen? So I built and sold my first
business in my early twenties, and that was definitely
more luck than judgment. And then kind of went
back and was consulting again for three years
after I built the NHS app, nhs .uk. I was pretty
adamant that a lot of the companies that were
building services were doing a reasonable job,
but not a great job for the health service. And
so I built different and the rationale there
was I wanted user centered design to sit at the
heart of what we were doing. And so I built that
company and sold it within a five year period.
And then having gone through the process of building
and selling a couple of companies, I wanted to
help other entrepreneurs to do that. And that's
really what led me to building the Grafta. And
we're now helping founders to grow scale and
exit in some cases. And unsurprisingly, lots
of those founders are in professional services
and healthcare. I mean, you've learned quite
a lot of lessons. What are the common pitfalls
you see entrepreneurs making it as mistakes?
What are the common mistakes you kind of see
them doing over and over again that you just
want to tell them, just stop doing this because
I've seen it all before. That's a good question.
I think there's probably a couple. I think that
I've spoken to lots of entrepreneurs who've taken
investment and wish that they hadn't. And so
I think there's You know, I'm a bootstrap founder,
so for me, I've not personally been on that journey.
I've helped others raise, but I haven't been
on that journey. But some of the conversations,
some of the stories around having somebody breathing
down your neck, unrealistic expectations. And
I think, you know, when you're a founder, the
blood, sweat and tears that you put in when somebody
else holds a lot of the equity in the business.
I'm not sure about the balance on equity there.
And so I see that more recently. I think that
if you're building a business and you're bootstrapping
it, you have to be able to sell those services
and deliver. In my opinion, that means you're
actually building and running a business properly
and getting experience of doing that. I guess
the other bit that I see quite a lot is unrealist
timescales around doing things. So some people
think it's going to be a lot faster than it actually
is. And I think this is probably inherent in,
well, hell, we kind of operate as a, you know,
as a world, everything is instant, you know,
the on, we are the on demand generation. And
so people will watch some influencers on TikTok
or Insta and think I'm going to be building a
business next in half an hour. And I think that
drives some unrealistic demands. If I was more
experienced, I probably wouldn't have attempted
to go in and out in five years with the last
business. So it's already a massively condensed
timeline. So I think they're probably the key,
the key bits that spring to mind. Do you think
there are some unreleasing expectations coming
in from investors as well? Instead of just advising
the founder saying, hey, take your time, build
correctly, build well. They actually say we need
to do this for tomorrow and for yesterday in
this case, and everything needs to be perfect
because that's just the way business is done.
I think that happens a lot. I do think there's
probably a fair bit of that, especially in certain
industries that are kind of hot like AI. And,
you know, everybody is doing something with AI.
And if you're not, you know, the perception is
you should be, or you're getting left behind.
I think the reality is that's, you know, a lot
of that will be machine learning at best and
probably not true AI. That's conversation for
another day. I think that, I think that there
is a real drive around getting stuff built and
shipped and therefore generating cash rapidly.
But if you drive people that hard and they cut
corners, here's the news. When that product goes
to market, there are going to be problems with
the service that you think you're delivering.
And as we all know, Ricardo, that's the fastest
way to piss off your clients and not manage to
retain them longer term. And so I think it's,
it's some of the building blocks around planning.
And I, you know, I say that. Because it's not
my natural default. I would rather get going
I said before Strategy kind of understand the
need for it, but I'm I'm a doer I'm a delivery
girl But I do think planning and thinking some
of that stuff through and pushing back on on
people whether that's investors around expectations
because otherwise all you're gonna do is is disappoint
them and By by definition disappoint you yourself
in the process When you're building businesses
and you build many, do you normally do it with
a team or you go about it yourself? I really
like having a team around me and I really like
the difference of opinions around how we get
things done. I guess as a founder this time,
I own the business. 100 % myself at some point.
We will make equity available for those who have
helped, probably options have helped in this.
I have had experience of working with business
partners and this time without. I guess if you've
got a good team and they're going to challenge,
we have the infamous line in a retrospective
yesterday around being The highest paid person's
opinion and an ass that I didn't comment first.
The irony is my team are completely uninterested
in my view a lot of the time and will challenge
me as hard as anybody else. So I think there's
pros and cons. For me, last time round, I wanted
a business partner. I didn't feel I could do
it myself. This time, I absolutely do not feel
the same way. I'm very comfortable doing it myself.
But I really like collaborating. I love working
with other entrepreneurs and I love working with
a team because it is the diversity of opinions
and challenge. And I think, you know, sometimes
founders, I don't know, they kind of believe
their own hype a little. And, you know, we don't
get it right a lot of the time. In fact, we get
it wrong loads. And so having that challenge
and Is important. I like that challenge from
everybody in the business. I'm not interested
in hierarchy And you know, I want everybody to
be able to say that is a shocking idea, right?
Let's not bother with that. So You know, how
do you keep yourself? I guess grounded and keep
your ego in check when you when you're building
if that's a good question Ricardo and a hard
one We should ask my wife the answer to that
She may say she doesn't actually, jokes aside,
that is a really hard question. I'm pretty experienced
with what I've done, but I don't think for one
minute that I have all the answers. This market
and this world is moving really quick. And so,
you know, I'm 46 from an age perspective. There
are lots of people around me who are tapped into
social media in a way that I probably will never
be now. You know, platforms like TikTok, I don't
use at all. I suspect at some point I'm going
to have to, but I don't and I'm resisting it.
But I think the highs and lows of running a business
are a really good check for ego because we get
so many things wrong. And anybody who's saying
they don't, I think is a bit of a fantasist or
bloody lucky. uh but the the reality is um it's
a roller coaster of emotion and um i i have times
where i think jesus why am i doing this again
uh and then i have times most of the time where
i thoroughly enjoy it i kind of relished the
challenge i loved the learning but i i guess
i've got a pretty good understanding of me is
the honest answer ricardo these days i done a
lot of work on me, had loads of therapy over
the years. I'm very open about the fact I'm in
a 12 -step fellowship, you know, 10 years sober.
So I guess 46 -year -old me just knows me better.
If I had the confidence at 20 that I have now,
I'd have been very dangerous. You know, I know
a lot of people are listening to this. They're
just starting out their entrepreneurial journey.
And they're facing a lot of problems, right?
And they're facing a lot of those very dark moments.
So what advice would 46 -year -old Rachel give
to the 20 -year -olds listening to this? What
would you tell them? I would tell them the same
thing I tell myself a lot of the time, which
is a bad day running a startup is much better.
For me personally, in the work of anybody else,
any day of the week, I am not great to manage
because I am very ADHD and I'm very happy to
get it right or wrong, providing I don't have
somebody on my case. I've never been broke with
authority. And so for me personally, that's how
I manage me. And what I would say is it's important
that whatever you're doing is really lighting
you up. So does it really fulfill something in
you? You know, there's a lot of people I think
that would do something because it generated
a lot of cash and that may well be what motivates,
you know, we all have different motivations,
but I think for me, if what you're doing is that
kind of, you know, tied to your North Star as
a person, the impact you want to make in the
world. and it's something you deeply believe
in, then that will see you through some pretty
horrific times, and get a community, get a network
of other founders, entrepreneurs, who are at
varying stages, who you can pick up the phone
to, or WhatsApp, or Voicenote, or DM, and just
go, Jesus, I'm having a mare. I was chatting
to a lady I met at an event, maybe six weeks
ago, a FemTech event, one of the best events
I've attended actually, it's called SysGlobal.
And I was chatting to her last night and she's
super early stage. She is going to raise half
a mil, she's then going to launch and she has
such a powerful plan for what this business is
going to look like in 12 months and her energy
is infectious. And I think it's about, you know,
she deeply believes in what she's going to go
and do. So you've got to want it because a lot
of it is not going to be glamorous and is hard
work. And so my advice is get that community
strapped in. There is no substitute for hard
work. I am yet to meet anyone who, you know,
does this bloody four hour day and and makes
a rip -roaring success of stuff and maybe they're
out there. Please, you know, drop me a line.
Let me know where I'm going wrong. But yeah,
I think if you believe and you want to make a
difference and it kind of really lights you up,
then you're onto a good thing. But it's a rollercoaster.
You know, it's massively up and down. And emotionally,
I find that easier to deal with now than I would
have done 20 years ago. I'm most curious about
one thing. I know you have a published book and
one of my passions is actually reading biographies
of successful people. Who inspires you? Who's
that person on the back of your mind saying,
they've done all this and I think I can also
do the same. So who's that? Yeah, that's a really
good question. So probably an unusual response
actually, but I'm going to give this one a go.
So my stepdaughter got very sick. uh with meningitis
when she was 14 she's a triple mpt as a result
and has had a couple of kidney transplants and
i think watching charlotte go on that journey
over the last 15 16 16 years um blows my mind
her resilience and her ability to get up and
carry on you know with unbelievable amount of
kind of, you know, personal medical drama. So
I think from a personal perspective, Charlotte
is a massive motivation. And if we're talking
about like business, business people, I met one
of my absolute heroes for the first time in person
last week. And that's Steven Bartlett. And the
reason I like, the reason I like Steven so much
is Mean I think he has like the dream job because
he gets to interview super bright people alone
all day He was fantastic. It was great on the
stage very authentic Super smart very fast brain.
I yeah, I'm quite a fan of him and I guess yeah,
they are the two that immediately Jump, jump
out. That's our examples. I mean, the absolutely
brilliant, you know, motivation from both of
them. Um, yeah, this is deep, very deep. Um,
you know, I'm curious, what does the future look
like for you? I mean, I know you have your plans,
your ambitions. I mean, what, what can you share
with us? That's a million dollar question. I
think the future looks like, uh, going back to
what I just said about really having a passion,
uh, and being completely lit up by something.
I suspect at some point in my future, I will
do some work in and around addiction because
it personally is a big part of who I am. And
I don't know in what way, and I don't know how,
but if anybody works in that field and is listening
and wants to have a conversation, I'm absolutely
up for that. So I would like to explore buying
businesses because I haven't done that yet. and
maybe knitting some of these businesses together
and seeing how that plays out. I've done some
investing, some with some success, some with
less. But for me, I think the learning is a massive
part of how I operate. I'm very interested at
the minute in learning around kind of buying
businesses and that whole side of the market
which is new to me. So I suspect those things
will play part of my future and I fancy living
and working in a warmer climate because this
weather in the UK is just a shocker, Ricardo.
So I think that we're going to have a little
adventure in Spain next year for three months
and we'll see. I just think The nature of the
work that I'm doing now, I can work from anywhere.
So I have a massive love affair with London,
so I won't be leaving it for too long. But I
do think it's good to have those experiences
as well. From a cultural perspective, I've lived
abroad a number of times before, and I'd like
to do a bit more of a - Interesting. I wanted
to touch upon a subject that - I can feel you
have a lot to tell about, which is mental health
and making sure that as an entrepreneur, as someone
building their business, they keep their mental
health in check. Now you've been on the massive
journey, a lot of transformation. What have been
the key lessons, but also the guiding principles
in this massive journey you've been on? Yeah,
that's a great question. I think for me, understanding
really, who you are as an individual is super
important. And it's easy to not do that. And
we're in a world of massive distraction. And
so it's very easy to be hugely distracted. I
think having a support network from a mental
health perspective, and that can be lots of different
things for different people. For me personally,
I journal and I find that quite a therapeutic
way to get out whatever is sort of sitting in
me, I guess. And I have an act of doing a gratitude
list every day of 10 things that I'm grateful
for. And it takes less than five minutes. But
what it does is it puts my mind into a positive
mindset at the start of the day, thinking about
what I'm grateful for. And it is not about, you
know, grand things like, you know, there's a
Ferrari in the drive. I mean, there actually
isn't. But it's not about that. It's about perspective
and being grateful for, I don't know, good coffee,
you know, good run in the morning. And so I think
those things that for me are important and get
more and more important the older I get or the
better connected I get. However, if you look
at that, I also think being able to have conversations
about mental health and how people are feeling.
We often joke at the grafter with the internal
team and actually sometimes with clients because
a lot of team meetings go into like a therapy,
it almost feels like a group therapy session
because we do talk about everything and have
created a culture where people, it is completely
acceptable for people to have those conversations
and encouraged. And I think You know, these jobs
as founders, they're lonely, they're hard. So
having a network and being able to ask for some
help. Um, and I think that's probably the key
bit is, is not thinking you've got to struggle
with everything yourself. Um, and asking, asking
for help or, you know, just saying, I don't know
how to do this. Can I get some, get some help
with it? I've got a friend who does work in addiction,
sort of, and he is launching a business at the
minute, and he said to me the other day, I cannot
believe the amount of support that I've got from
people by just asking for help. Yeah, it's an
untapped skill in many people, I think, being
humble and saying, you know, can you help me
out? It's one of the hardest things as an entrepreneur
because you don't want to be seen as weak. But
at the same time, you actually do need a lot
of help. And being able to ask for help, it's
getting into the mindset saying, you know what,
I don't have this nailed down, let me ask for
help. And just getting some directions that that's
hard to solve. But then when you start taking
it, you think, oh, wow, this is amazing. I think
it's incredible. And a lot of people, Ricardo,
are in my experience, people will always help
if they can. I mean, you know, if you were to
ask him for something crazy, you know, you're
messaging Richard Branson and say, I want some
first -class tickets somewhere, you know, I suspect
the answer is probably going to be no. I mean,
I may be wrong, but I think people in the main
are quite generous with their time. You know,
we set something up at the Grafter called Bootstrapper
Hour and we run it. It's a LinkedIn live once
a month. We run it for early stage founders.
So they've got a place to come, they have a community,
they can rock up and they can ask whatever they
want. And we've had all manner of topics and
conversations around businesses, mental health.
You know, how do I explore tax to set up a limited
company to side hustles, you name it. And I think
being able to plug into some of these is super.
important because it does start to help the next
generation of entrepreneurs coming through. So
I would always recommend that. And for me personally,
I'm lucky I have a wide network of people that
I will ask for help in lots of different capacities.
Just thinking about something you mentioned,
because I also have the same thing, which is
ADHD, right? And ADHD, one of the good things
and bad things about it is you are able to juggle
multiple things at the same time and feel completely
at ease and no stress whatsoever. However, if
someone asks you to hyper -focus on a specific
task, you just think, oh wow, this is incredibly
boring, I need to do something else at the same
time. But I also think as a CEO, as a leader,
as a founder, this is actually one of the best
skills to have because you can do multiple things
at the same time. Now, how impactful has this
been in your own life and in your own journey?
So I think for me, the ADHD, I suspected that
I was prior to being diagnosed and I suspected
it from a complete lack of appreciation for authority
from much younger years and just being a little
bit questionable with activities growing up and,
you know, just sort of pushing the boundaries,
I think is probably the best way of phrasing
it, Riccola. And so I guess for me, you've described
exactly the sort of flavor of ADA I am. I can
run loads of things concurrently. Hyperfocus
is a bit of a challenge. And if someone sends
me a form to fill in, I'd rather fall through
a closed window. Uh, I, it puts the fear of God
in me. Like if you have to do a visa application
or something, I'm like, oh, I feel ill. But I'd
also, um, I would delay that stuff forever in
a day. Cause it's, you know, it fits in the category
like going to the supermarket for a weekly shop,
i .e. never going to happen. I'm just not wired
that way. And. I accept that. And I think the
other thing for me is I'm lucky. I've had a PA
support me for a long period of time who is very
okay with ADHD founders. And I think by recognizing
some of that stuff that bores me is much better
handled by other people. To make sure it actually
is dull is key. It's funny. I mean, this, this
thing's like bounced around my head, so I'm going
to say it. But my partner has always said to
me, you know, Roach, why don't you have carrier
bags in the boot of the car when you go to the
supermarket? I said at the point I put a carrier
bag in my boot of my car, I'm going to kill myself.
A slight exaggeration, but I said that sort of
planning ahead rates a bit like a list for me
and none of that stuff. It just makes me feel
uncomfortable, that level of planning. But I
think as a founder, I think it's a a superpower.
I do think the, and I noticed me do it earlier
today, you know, I can go right off on a mad
wall, down a rabbit hole. Something piques my
interest and that's what business buying has
piqued my interest a few months ago and I cannot
consume enough. And I know that, you know, if
it's not a podcast, it's a book and there's probably
two, two books a week getting read. I mean, it's
crazy, but it's is who I am, so I kind of embrace
it and accept it and I manage it. I don't know
whether I manage it better or it calms down a
bit when you get older. I can still feel it in
me sometimes, you know, when you're hyperwired
and kind of really hyperactive. I actually had
that this morning. And so, yeah, I just had to
go for a long run and try to balance it out.
How important is in exercises in the founder's
journey? Essential. Um, but that's for my journey.
So I, um, yeah, for, for me personally, I mean,
I guess transformation started with me personally.
I was probably seven stone heavier at maybe 10,
10 years ago, maybe 15 years now. So, and then
I kind of stopped, stopped drinking and took
you know, up, exercise, and it's good for my
mental health. You know, my head is very, very
busy. I've mentioned ADHD and addiction, so,
you know, it's not quiet up there. I wish it
was Ricardo at certain times, but it's very rarely
quiet. So, being able to do activities that take
me out of my mind, like You know, I do Mootai,
do martial arts, run, do some weight lifting,
but also like meditation, slowing down is actually
very important for me because everything goes
a million miles an hour. So being able to slow
down is definitely a work in progress, but it's
a handy skill to have. As we're reaching the
end of the podcast, I wanted to ask you advice
that I think a lot of our listeners would like
to listen to. Can you share some pearls of wisdom
that you've learned from your own journey and
you'd like to tell us? Yeah, of course. I think
pearls of wisdom, for sure. Cash flow is king
or queen. However, you feel comfortable with
that. For any entrepreneur, if you're not managing
cash into the business, there is going to be
a fundamental problem pretty quickly. It's the
most basic advice imaginable, but for me, I think
it's probably the most critical. I think the
other bit is for entrepreneurs, you know, it's
an important question to ask yourself. Are you
creating a job for yourself or are you actually
creating a company? because a lot of us dive
in and build something that we love doing, but
is that building a job or is it building a company?
I guess you didn't ask for three, but I'm going
to give you three. My final piece of advice is
always be learning and be open to that because
for me, this world is moving really quickly.
And we can't be complacent in consultancy at
the minute. And every article I'm reading is
telling me that AI is going to replace my consultancy
in five minutes. I don't think it will. But if
we learn to understand what's going on in the
market, I think it puts us, you know, ahead of
some of the technological advances, but also
allows us to bring personality and human nature
to some of those. And so for me, learning is
absolutely key. Rachel, if you want to reach
out to you, how can you do that? So thegrafter
.com is the company website and I am on LinkedIn
more frequently than I should be. So Rachel Murphy
on LinkedIn. And then recently debating whether
I should be back on Twitter, but I don't want
to start a big fanfare of debate around that.
So yeah, that's where people would find me. Rachel,
thank you so much for your time. I really enjoyed
it. My pleasure, Ricardo. Thank you for having
me. My pleasure. Thank you. All right. The podcast
is also sponsored by Notion .so. Notion is offering
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.uk to read in this offer. This podcast is also
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