Welcome to the Innovation Conversation, a podcast
about innovators, both in business and real life.
Hosted by myself, Ricardo Rescual and Harry McCona.
This podcast is also sponsored by ODEV Tech.
ODEV Tech is your premier software development
partner. Make sure you check them out at odev
.tech. The podcast is also sponsored by Notion
.so. Notion is offering six months for free for
new users. Make sure you check out our website,
thestoreofevents .co .uk to read in the software.
Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Innovation
Conversation. Today we are joined by Gonzalo
Martín Rocañin. I'm from Spain. Gonzalo, welcome
to the podcast. Oh, thank you. Thanks for having
me. Gonzalo, would you like to introduce yourself
to the audience, please? Yeah, of course. Gonzalo
Martín Rocañin. I'm from Spain, and I do innovation
consultancy. We're dating now. I've been working
for small and medium enterprises lately. Of course,
we're doing open innovation with corporations.
And also with my PhD on innovation and strategy
at the university competition. Interesting. I'm
most curious, how do you find the Spanish ecosystem
overall? It's evolving. Some would say that it's
a mature ecosystem from a perspective because
every time I do a strategy for companies, there
is this conception that all companies are in
a mature phase of their life cycle. But I guess
in this case, regarding entrepreneurship, I think
the ecosystem is quite in an introduction phase,
even if it's over 10, 15 years that it's going
on. I think, and I guess that there's still more
work to do, specifically in terms of more people
or What do you think are the main roadblocks
in Spain? for launching your business? To be
honest, I think that it's this big conception
that startups are only about technology, not
on the one hand. And on the other, you can see
it from the kind of programs administration are
starting to run, focused basically on technology.
And on the other, there is this misconception
that no one can innovate on a startup. Well,
I think it's something cultural and we as a country,
as a democracy are young yet. It's only over
40 years and there is still a lot of things to
catch up with and entrepreneurship is one of
these things that we need to catch up. Interesting.
You know, when you look at other markets, do
you think they're more competitive when compared
to Spain or they're pretty much in the same scenario?
Oh, you mean by competitive? What I mean is,
for example, I understand that for you to launch
a business in Spain, you actually need to, I
think, pay almost 6 ,000 euros to launch the
business or something like that. Yeah, which
is quite a big barrier for entry. Now, when you
compare that with UK, for example, where creating
a company which costs you 14 pounds and then
you can set up a bank account and, you know,
it's very easy to start trading. Do you find
that Spain could actually be easier, that they
should make it easier or there's a reason why
it's so complicated? Everybody says this should
be easier. That's a common thing. But, I mean,
it's not about that you need to put up front
3 ,000, but you don't even need to put them into
an account. You only need to compromise, as you
will, to some extent. And even if there are barriers,
what I think, there is a lack of culture on the
one hand, but culture, generally speaking, but
also And there is a lack of knowing those techniques,
those artifacts that are used within the entrepreneurial
field, and put them into work easily. So of course,
I'm talking about design thinking, re -starting
methods, but not from, we need to use them, not
from an academic perspective, but put them into
actions. And I think this is not so broadly distributed,
this kind of knowledge. So for my perspective,
the member, So, what would you change to make
it easier to create a business and launch a business?
Education. But for sure, education at the uni
is something that I got perplexed because I'm
teaching startup companies and I got perplexed
because I didn't think that at the uni, public
university, we were able to have this subject
overall. It's from this educational perspective
because we only do this in management. But we
should expand it into other disciplines as well,
especially those technical disciplines, those
so -called STEM, which is so in fashion right
now. So yeah, we should distribute wide range
these techniques and this educational part of
the entrepreneurial field. When you talk with
your students, do you find that a lot of them
want to launch their own business or they just
want to go to be corporate? 20 and 21 years old.
They don't have a clue about what to do next.
That's the reality. And when I ask them about,
okay, who wants to be a digital first aid question?
Who wants to become an entrepreneur? Who wants
to work for a corporate? Who wants to be a, to
get their PhD, et cetera? Almost none of them
raised their hands and answering, I want to,
to become an entrepreneur. It's the super shocking.
But why do you think that is? Because I would
assume that being your own boss and launching
your own business is better than any other scenario.
I think that's because of our parents and this
is the dependence that we've got from these early
years of democracy. Or it was, I mean, in Spain,
you certainly know, we've been through other...
almost 40 years of being poor, a poor country.
And after being a poor country, I think that
psychologically, what people want is stability
and safety and be secure in their own living.
So working for an administration or working for
a big company, something that gives you this
is on hand. And we are now transitioning into
this new approach that I'll hopefully our children
and my children will have in 20 years from now.
Interesting. That's actually a bit concerning.
I would assume that most people will be interested
in launching their own business, especially in
uni, because you're full of ideas and you want
to take a lot of risks. Yeah. Yeah. It's astonishing.
And there's another point that when I ask if
they know what sustainable company is or sustainable
strategy is. They don't have the control actually,
so they don't know what it is. It's very different
from the reality I'm finding in some other European
countries where people actually want to launch
their own business. And I remember when I was
back in uni, one of my pet peeves was I kept
on having all these business ideas, but there
was no one to talk to them about and no one to
actually grow them. So that was actually, I wish
I had you as a teacher back then because that
would have made a huge difference. That's quite
interesting. What can be done to change that
overall? Cause it's a very deep problem, isn't
it? Very complex problem. Yeah. And as complex
as it is, there is a need of different actors
playing and in order to transform, make the system
change. So on the one hand, the administration,
they need to create those vehicles on the one
hand, but I don't think that's the most important
thing. On the other, there is this need of a
bigger conversation, much conversation between
corporates, academia, that would be a good starting
point. And then also doing some corporates entrepreneurship,
which is something that is safer. And that can,
not in order to get the biggest and the best
startups in the world, but in order to transform
and to change the way we approach to entrepreneurship.
This is kind of a cultural transformation. Is
this different from city to city, region to region?
So I'm thinking for example, Global was launched
in Barcelona, if I'm not mistaken. I know you're
based in Madrid. So you think this is a difference
between the two regions or it's actually the
same trial? To be honest, I'm not sure, but if
you look at the profiles of those people that
are sat in those companies, they all come from
business schools. So they come from the side,
they come from the IE mostly. So I think that
we've got buyers through this. What's the health
of this ecosystem of this region? And it's more,
yeah, because the friends that I've got, they've
got startup companies. All of them I met outside
the business school. Hmm. Okay. Interesting.
And beyond that, we've got different entrepreneurs
that maybe they go under the radar most of the
time. They can, I mean, they don't even consider
themselves entrepreneurs. And so we need to do
some research on how those ecosystems are working.
And so far I haven't seen, maybe it's my fault,
but I haven't seen a research on this topic about
what's the background of any, of every one or
every single entrepreneur that we've got. I was
just about to ask you, what about investors?
Do you think investors are only investing, I
guess in people with a really nice profile or
are they willing to take a risk? As they say,
I assume that you've got in your podcast a bunch
of them because one thing is what they say to
the general public and the other thing will happen
inside. But it's true. from what I have witnessed,
they bet on people, they bet on the CEO. And
the rest is history. Interesting. Because this
also limits, I guess, your ability to launch
a business in the first place. Especially if
you're coming from a disadvantaged background
where you might just have a great idea, you might
have what it takes to launch the business, but
then your CV will not say you've been to a nice
university. you might not have those connections.
So that might be, I guess, a roadblock to success
in some way. To scale up, to scale up for sure,
not to start up. Because you can start up super
small. And if you've got traction, you can start
talking, you can join the conversation. But I
think there are those different stages. And in
order to scale up as your background, I don't
think that it's that important. But in order
to start up, I get that they are, the business
are moving with the ones that I know, with gut
feelings and if they know the background and
they trust the CEO, okay, let's bet on this one
and see what happens next. Do you think that
the government is doing enough to promote this
type of economic growth? If you're running for
a politician, you need to be careful of this
question. I'm assuming you're not, so that's
why I ask. They never do enough, but I mean...
They're doing their best. And as far as I know,
they're doing their best. But there are also
different interests. There are different stakeholders
and everyone has their own interests. And I don't
think this is... I mean, regarding entrepreneurship,
the administration, what I think they need to
do is to create this ecosystem. And that's it.
That's it. It's something different if you talk
about sustainability or the... most important
driver should be, and it's the administration.
And that's the way it is. Nice. I should be,
because the government needs to take care of
the public goods. But when it comes to entrepreneurship,
and as there are different stakeholders working
on this matter, they just don't need to be a
pain in the neck. That's it. They just need to
build the ecosystem. I think that's how I see
the role. within all this big theater we are.
What about banks? Because you have quite gigantic
banks in Spain. Banks, they've got their own
interests. They've got their shareholders. And
what they're doing is, I mean, on the one hand,
we are witnessing this, at least in Spain, that
banks are buying other banks. So this oligopoly
is becoming less and less big than it was years
ago. So having said that, they are running new
branches, new business units, new brands, trying
to support entrepreneurs. I'm not quite sure
what their final goal is. I mean, I don't know
if they are acting as a VC, kind of VC, or they
are just using it as a communication goal. To
be honest, I would say the second one, but I
think there's a mix of the two. So banks, once
again, they're not, I mean, there's copies to,
I lend you money if I am sure that I can have
it back within some years. So don't put too much
pressure on people or actors that they don't
need to suffer this burden because it's not something
that they're, It's interesting because many years
ago, almost a couple of decades ago, I was trying
to launch a business in Portugal and the bank
asked for some financial guarantees. And the
financial guarantees, had I signed the contract,
would be much higher than any risk the bank would
actually be taking to the sum that I was asking
for in the absolute numbers, 100k. And they wanted
the financial guarantees of half a million. And
I'm like, well, hold on guys, as a business person,
if I was to sign this, I'll be the worst business
person in the world. And you as a lender should
actually be concerned with my ability to assess
risk and stuff like that because it doesn't make
any business sense to even do this. But yeah,
those were conditions back then which were not
beneficial to start any business really. Yeah,
it's a big thing. What about the legal system?
Is it easy to navigate around that in Spain?
Is it quick or not really? The legal system in
terms of all the procedures that we need to do
in order to start our company, I think that are
pretty much streamlined, but there is a lack
of legal counsel within most of the companies.
Daily, I can imagine the reason behind that.
The status are not a big customer for a legal
company. or at least for most of them. And what
I want to say lately is also that we need and
startups and companies alike need legal advisory
on reaching funds from the European Union in
order to innovate. And this is something that
there is a super big lack of information within
companies. The big ones and small ones alike.
And that would be something that could help.
Do you think there's a bigger dependency on funds
versus other markets where the dependency is
actually on investors and finding the right investors?
And I'm trying to compare between Spain and also
Portugal and a bunch of other UAE countries.
compared with the UK, where they don't have access
to those funds, but they go over to investors
and say the same thing, hey, we need X amount
of money to grow the company in this direction,
and we're going to get, you know, Y in revenue.
Whereas in here, you just go to, you know, trying
to get government support and stuff. Okay, every
country has their own resources. So if there
are countries that they don't have these kind
of resources, that's their reality. And so it
might be changed accordingly. But we are in a
country that we need, that we've got those resources.
We need to use them in order to create those
capabilities that can help the companies to grow
somehow. Do you think people are too dependent
on that? I don't, no, I don't think they're dependent
on that, but they are, there are slack resources
that we are not using. So this is the kind of
missed function of the system. One of the things
for example I noticed in Portugal is every single
company project that requires a little bit of
investment always tries to go for some type of
European funding and it actually it only happens
if they get a European funding and Sometimes
you even get into the situation where they get
European funding But they actually don't use
it for anything else apart from buying really
nice cards for the company, which is obviously
not ideal That's a different story. I don't think
that it's working anymore like this. I think
I guess At least from those previous years, I
mean, on and on, everything that they had said,
you need to justify somehow the origin and the
destination of your fans. So the fans need to
go to innovation, that's for sure. I think you
can, you know, as it might be, they are quite
curious about this topic, so. And rightfully
so. Yeah. What about the ecosystem in, for example,
in Madrid? I mean, we run a couple of events
there. How should I put this? It's not a struggle
to find people, but I think it's still a very
growing ecosystem. I see a lot of stuff from
the City Hall trying to get more people launching
stuff. You also have big events happening there.
How do you think that ecosystem is? Is it thriving
or is it just getting started? As I mentioned,
at the beginning of our conversation, I think
it's in the introductory phase. The actors and
the diverse actors that need to jump in are still
in the nation stage. So we've got the Madrid
Council, that's for sure. We've got some innovation
programs, of course. And we've got just a few
startups. But something that needs to grow over
the years. And maybe in 10 years' time, not earlier,
we will have an ecosystem that is appealing.
But I think that's basically it. We cannot ask
more than we are able to give in the general
environment. If you had like a magic wand and
you can change like a lot of things, where would
you start changing things? By trying to find
out the new startup CEOs. So we need to... cultivate
younger generations and to educate them into
and inoculate them this entrepreneurial gene
or interest which on the other hand I don't think
it exists but we need to give them the tools
the right tools in order to say okay you've got
you your parents on the path you've got new options
in front of you and one of these options is becoming
an entrepreneur And here you've got the tool,
here you've got the ecosystem, and let's walk
this path together. Interesting. Now, we need
a question that, you know, it's the reason why
limited companies exist, which is, let's say
worst comes to worst, you launch a business,
the business doesn't work, you fail the business,
you close down the business, that's it. Is that
going to be frowned upon amongst, you know, your
fellow peers in society or not really? They think
that if you fail, you did the wrong thing. Yeah,
you launch a business in Spain, it doesn't work.
You fail, you carry on. And now in a lot of companies,
actually, I think it's one of the criteria for
a lot of investors is they only invest in startups
who have founders who actually failed the previous
businesses because they've learned a lot of lessons.
Now, do you think that is that the case in Spain
or people actually, they fail once and they never
try it again? I know people that are professionals
or starting and restarting companies all over
again. Even if they never have success, but eventually
they will. Or not. Again, as we are living in
our own bubble, I guess, the people that we see
that they are entrepreneurs, they are starting
and starting and starting again. But we only
have the population and the examples. I don't
know any single one, but that's also my own world.
people that start a company, maybe they can fail
and over the years they start to decay. Because
maybe, and I don't know what you think about
it, Ricardo, if you once in your lifetime have
decided to create your own company, it's because
you are tired of working for a company. Once
you experience the sense of freedom, you don't
want to get rid of that sense of freedom, even
if you eventually might fall into this trap of,
okay, let's go back to a corporate so I can feel
safe for now. But eventually over the years,
you are going to start something on your own
or with other peers again. I don't know what's
your plan. I am becoming the host of your podcast.
No, no, but that's the thing. The way I see entrepreneurs
and the more people I talk to is, you're not
going to be right all the time and that's fine.
It doesn't mean your idea is going to be successful
and that's also fine, but you keep on trying
until you achieve your goals. And that's what
matters. And that's what's going to make a difference
between being an entrepreneur or being someone
who tried once. And that's why I was asking,
is it frowned upon among society? Because everyone
I talked to who has actually made it to a point
where they became millionaires, they all said,
yeah, I failed five or six times before I found
something that worked. And they just take it
as part of the game. It's the same thing with,
I guess, relationships. You're not going to,
you know, depends on who you are, but most people
don't marry the first person they kiss, right?
They kiss a couple more to get to that stage.
So yeah, that's why I see it. Yeah. And also
I think there are different, different goals
among the enterprise, even if they are not aware
of them. On the one hand, we can, we can see
it. Some of them that they see this as a new
exercise, a new academic exercise, or just to
prove themselves and to see what happens when
you start to run your own business. On the other,
there are people that and I think those are the
most successful of them all that they start company
because they want to become rich. Their focus
is on achieving that goal and there are others
that You do it because you are feeling or you're
having a bad experience within the corporate
world and you want to test what figures look
like. So there are different kinds of roles,
different kinds of how to measure success. And
I think that's something that we could explore
in the future as well. Interesting. What do you
think? Because Spain obviously, you know, had
a gigantic empire, so did Portugal, but you also
have a lot of immigrants coming in from Latin
Spanish speaking countries. Do you find that
they are more, more willing to take risks to
launch their own business overall? My wife is
Argentinian and I've got tons of friends from
Colombia as well. And there's a big difference.
Also, I don't know if we are biased with the
population that the people that we are in, we're
with, but the Colombian and Argentinian people,
they are super entrepreneurial, they've got super
entrepreneurial spirit. They are super used to
start business units in their own countries.
But it's something insane. Because my wife, for
example, when she was younger, along with her
sister, they got a business of celebrating birthdays
for their parties. And this is something very
usual there. There's also very usual to cook
for others. They cook the cakes and they cook
meals for parties or for gatherings. And they
also do refurbishment of furniture and they sell
what they've got. And this is something that
is in their DNA. Maybe it's because of the environment
or their... how they struggle within their countries.
But what I see is that specifically Argentinian
and Colombian people and those that come here,
you can see the difference in the street. Because
they just want to get stuff done, right? They
don't. There's no barriers to making things.
I get the issue with the mindset because, you
know, coming from, I guess, a middle -class background
in Portugal. If I was to turn to my friends and
said, I'm going to start, you know, organizing
birthday parties and selling cakes. They're like,
Oh, are you crazy? Why just get a job or get,
you know, get a promotion, a new job. But actually
there's, there's a lot to be gained by doing
that and just launching your own business and
side business and stuff like that. So, yeah.
Yeah. I haven't said business is something common
over there. And it's, and it's quite uncommon
here. And once you realize that money that comes
from side jobs is super good. And it's also a
way of starting a business and multitasking.
Do you think that by, you know, bringing that
spirit back to Spain, do you think they, they,
they've kind of brought a lot of momentum to
the economy and a lot of momentum to, you know,
to the ecosystem saying, Hey, you know, I'm coming
from Columbia, Argentina. I've run businesses
there when I run a business here as well. Definitely.
Definitely. I mean, that's, that's That's, that's
my, that's my answer. There is no something else
to give to explain this. Definitely. Interesting
though, because this is kind of fascinating.
Now we met, we kind of touched upon the differences
between the different regions in Spain. I want
to go a little bit deeper. Do you think there
is a region or a city that's better to launch
a business than the other overall, or they're
pretty much all the same? It also depends on
the business, but it's something easy to understand
that if you are located in Madrid or in Barcelona.
You've got better communications. Also the airports
that we've got here are much bigger and better
connected to the world. So that's what I would
say. On the other hand is that accommodation
and living in these cities is also super expensive.
So, but yeah, I mean, I would be located near
Madrid or near Barcelona in places where the
cost of living are or lower, but definitely you
need to, to get connected and be connected to
the rest of the world. Cause I'm going to conference
next week in Salamanca, Sarebole. I've been to
Salamanca many times, but it's off the beaten
track. It's not something you think about when
you think about entrepreneurs, but you start
looking at everyone's going to be there. Like,
I don't know. It's quite a lot of, you know,
very important people from, from all over the
world. So yeah, I think Salamanca has become
a network node. So, okay, instead of meeting
in Madrid or in another city in the world, let's
meet in Salamanca, which on the other hand, it's
super fabulous. Yeah. It's funny. It doesn't
even have easy access. I mean, it has a tiny
airport, but that's about it, you know, for trains
and stuff. But yeah, it's funny how they managed
to take a small city that has a lot of history,
obviously, but it's not as easy connected as
Madrid or Barcelona and still make a huge event
there. So that's quite impressive. I mean, it's
a stakeholder's point. And I don't know, I don't
have the information about how many staffs have
set up. It's a super cool place to meet. That's
for sure. And Gonzalo, if people want to reach
out to you and find out more about the stuff
you do, how can you do so? Yeah, they can find
me on dating for sure. And I'd be glad to get
in touch with them. Sounds good. That's all.
Thank you so much for your time. I really enjoyed
that conversation. Well, thank you for having
me too. It was fun. Bye bye. All right, so that's
it. The podcast is also sponsored by Notion .so.
Notion is offering six months for free for new
users. Make sure you check out our website, thestartupevents
.co .uk to read in the software. This podcast
is also sponsored by startupnetworks .co .uk.
Startup Networks, it's an online forum where
you can find all the resources you need to run
your startup. from grants to investors to tips
and tricks on how to be successful in your startup.
This podcast is also sponsored by ODEV Tech.
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partner. Make sure you check them out at odev
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