WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.859 Welcome to the Innovation Conversation, a podcast 00:00:02.859 --> 00:00:05.419 about innovators, both in business and real life. 00:00:05.879 --> 00:00:08.380 Hosted by myself, Ricardo Rescual and Harry McCona. 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:11.699 This podcast is also sponsored by ODEV Tech. 00:00:12.439 --> 00:00:14.640 ODEV Tech is your premier software development 00:00:14.640 --> 00:00:18.019 partner. Make sure you check them out at odev 00:00:18.019 --> 00:00:22.399 .tech. The podcast is also sponsored by Notion 00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:25.359 .so. Notion is offering six months for free for 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:27.839 new users. Make sure you check out our website, 00:00:28.019 --> 00:00:30.600 thestoreofevents .co .uk to read in the software. 00:00:32.159 --> 00:00:34.439 Hi and welcome to another episode of the Innovation 00:00:34.439 --> 00:00:36.960 Conversation. Today we are joined by Pedro Bandera. 00:00:37.159 --> 00:00:39.439 Thank you Ricardo. It is a pleasure to be here. 00:00:39.500 --> 00:00:42.420 Thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure. 00:00:42.859 --> 00:00:44.740 Pedro, would you like to introduce yourself to 00:00:44.740 --> 00:00:47.600 the audience please? Yeah, sure, sure. Of course. 00:00:48.799 --> 00:00:53.659 I just started. I was a nurse before. And then 00:00:53.659 --> 00:00:55.939 I started my own companies in the healthcare 00:00:55.939 --> 00:01:00.700 sector, in online courses, also a company in 00:01:00.700 --> 00:01:04.959 consultancy for innovation and agri -tech company. 00:01:05.459 --> 00:01:08.700 And after those four companies, I started investing 00:01:08.700 --> 00:01:13.980 as a business angel and I joined... Today is 00:01:13.980 --> 00:01:17.040 my business partner, Ray Falcon, that we started 00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:22.680 a group of angels in 2014. And then in 2009, 00:01:22.980 --> 00:01:27.579 it called Red Angels. In 2019, we started at 00:01:27.579 --> 00:01:30.680 Core Angels and we have now 12 angel funds around 00:01:30.680 --> 00:01:34.200 the globe. And last year we started Y -Angel 00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:38.599 to help angels to do exits and to learn a little 00:01:38.599 --> 00:01:41.640 bit more about how to become better angels. So 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:44.439 that's me. I'm also the vice president for angels 00:01:44.439 --> 00:01:47.939 at Investors Portugal, the national association 00:01:47.939 --> 00:01:51.459 for early stage investors. VCs and angels mostly. 00:01:51.799 --> 00:01:54.099 And so I'm the person in charge of angels there. 00:01:54.840 --> 00:01:57.480 Wow. Okay. I have so many questions. It's actually 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:01.319 crazy right now. So this is the first time we 00:02:01.319 --> 00:02:03.219 actually have someone in charge of the whole 00:02:03.219 --> 00:02:05.280 angel network. So how did you get started with 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:07.920 that? I mean, how did you even came up with the 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:10.419 idea to launch your own angel network and how 00:02:10.419 --> 00:02:13.520 did that happen? You know, I think the entire 00:02:13.520 --> 00:02:18.439 thing about angel investing is that in a moment 00:02:18.439 --> 00:02:22.139 in time, you are inspired by someone else. So 00:02:22.139 --> 00:02:26.020 I think that's the way most angels start is because 00:02:26.020 --> 00:02:29.240 somebody's also doing that and you just want 00:02:29.240 --> 00:02:35.500 to follow those steps. So when I met Rui in 2013, 00:02:35.580 --> 00:02:38.180 he was already an angel. I was not. I was, you 00:02:38.180 --> 00:02:41.659 know, managing my companies, building new startups. 00:02:42.300 --> 00:02:45.620 And when Rui said it to me and challenged me 00:02:45.620 --> 00:02:48.979 to, you know, Did you think about becoming an 00:02:48.979 --> 00:02:52.479 angel investor already? I said, I never thought 00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:56.819 about it. So come with me. So that's how everything 00:02:56.819 --> 00:02:59.319 started. So we started investing together in 00:02:59.319 --> 00:03:02.039 the first startups and then we started inviting 00:03:02.039 --> 00:03:04.680 more people to join us. And we ended up with 00:03:04.680 --> 00:03:08.639 a group of 66 angels from 11 different countries. 00:03:09.700 --> 00:03:12.979 How it all happened? I don't know, but it happened. 00:03:13.340 --> 00:03:15.300 Do you think that having the background from 00:03:15.300 --> 00:03:18.360 the startup world made a difference in your approach 00:03:18.360 --> 00:03:22.639 as an angel? Yeah, for sure. I can see mostly 00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:27.199 three profiles of angels that are investing with 00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:30.860 us. So one is a serial entrepreneur that wants 00:03:30.860 --> 00:03:35.479 to continue that entrepreneurial journey without 00:03:35.479 --> 00:03:38.560 taking the lead, without the hassle of that. 00:03:38.539 --> 00:03:42.819 not sleeping at night. So I think that, you know, 00:03:43.020 --> 00:03:46.659 those entrepreneurs that want to be part of the 00:03:46.659 --> 00:03:51.180 next big thing, but are supporting someone that 00:03:51.180 --> 00:03:53.800 is leading and instead of leading themselves, 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:58.520 that's one of the angels profile. So I'm more 00:03:58.520 --> 00:04:02.979 in that category. Then we have another profile 00:04:02.979 --> 00:04:08.199 that is more like a C level of a multinational 00:04:08.199 --> 00:04:12.219 company that is tired of that corporate world 00:04:12.219 --> 00:04:15.580 but has some money in the pocket and wants to 00:04:15.580 --> 00:04:17.899 get involved with innovation and learn about 00:04:17.899 --> 00:04:20.379 new things and new ways of doing business and 00:04:20.379 --> 00:04:25.899 then we have a third that is someone that made 00:04:25.899 --> 00:04:30.360 money not by being an entrepreneur or vice you 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:35.310 know through salary but because They they come 00:04:35.310 --> 00:04:39.370 from a wealthy family or because they earn money 00:04:39.370 --> 00:04:42.850 with that cryptos or with poker or whatever So 00:04:42.850 --> 00:04:45.370 so a lot of different things, but they are not 00:04:45.370 --> 00:04:48.310 used to build companies. So those two profiles 00:04:48.310 --> 00:04:52.529 profiles they come together and the beauty of 00:04:52.529 --> 00:04:57.110 this is that when those different profiles are 00:04:57.110 --> 00:05:01.089 Looking at the same starter. They see a different 00:05:01.089 --> 00:05:04.399 thing And those different points of view are 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:07.620 very interesting to discuss between those different 00:05:07.620 --> 00:05:10.839 profiles and, you know, learn from each other 00:05:10.839 --> 00:05:14.699 because all of them bring different things and 00:05:14.699 --> 00:05:18.819 that's interesting. So for me, in my reality, 00:05:19.100 --> 00:05:22.100 just I was building my startups, my companies, 00:05:22.339 --> 00:05:26.759 some of them startups, others were not that scalable, 00:05:26.759 --> 00:05:32.600 if you want, but then when When somebody approached 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:34.740 me saying, Oh, do you want to invest in startups? 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:39.980 Why not? So why should I be focusing in my own 00:05:39.980 --> 00:05:43.779 companies if I can, you know, help others also 00:05:43.779 --> 00:05:46.779 to do those companies and being connected with 00:05:46.779 --> 00:05:50.860 it. So that's the way it started. Interesting. 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:53.759 I know from previous conversations, you're very 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:56.519 hands on when it comes to the companies you actually 00:05:56.519 --> 00:05:58.920 end up investing in. So it's not just. here's 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:00.600 the money, go and do something with it, go spend 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:02.000 it. It's actually, here's the money and here's 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:04.500 some advice as well with the money, right? So 00:06:04.500 --> 00:06:05.980 that makes a big difference in these companies 00:06:05.980 --> 00:06:08.620 I'm imagining. Yeah, you know, we usually say 00:06:08.620 --> 00:06:13.180 that business angels are angel investors. You 00:06:13.180 --> 00:06:16.379 know, in Europe, we usually call them business 00:06:16.379 --> 00:06:19.459 angels. In the United States, it's called angel 00:06:19.459 --> 00:06:22.439 investors. So I usually say business angel investors 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:25.139 are angels just to make it happen. You know, 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:29.660 usually the angels are are not investing only 00:06:29.660 --> 00:06:32.620 money. Because if they are investing money only, 00:06:32.779 --> 00:06:35.879 they are investing in startups, they can invest 00:06:35.879 --> 00:06:38.939 in crowdfunding and it's only money, or they 00:06:38.939 --> 00:06:41.439 can invest in a VC fund and they put the money 00:06:41.439 --> 00:06:43.899 there and they delegate in a management team 00:06:43.899 --> 00:06:47.040 all the world. So that management team will select 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:49.620 the startups to invest, will invest in the startups, 00:06:49.800 --> 00:06:51.379 take care of the entire process, will mentor 00:06:51.379 --> 00:06:54.540 the startups, make sure the startups grow. and 00:06:54.540 --> 00:06:56.500 then we'll sell the startups and distribute the 00:06:56.500 --> 00:06:59.819 results. And the only thing that those LPs, the 00:06:59.819 --> 00:07:01.600 limited partners, the investors in a venture 00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:04.259 capital fund, the only thing that they receive 00:07:04.259 --> 00:07:09.620 is the end results financially and the reports, 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:15.480 quarterly reports, our annual reports, they receive 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:19.040 reports and that's it. So when you want to name 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:21.720 the investor, it is not about the money gate. 00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:25.819 It is Of course that if you're investing in startups, 00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:30.540 you want to sell your shares in the startup for 00:07:30.540 --> 00:07:33.199 a value that is higher than the money invested 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:36.759 in. But this is not only about the end result. 00:07:36.839 --> 00:07:41.579 It is about the journey. So it means that the 00:07:41.579 --> 00:07:44.279 angels usually invest in the startups, the money, 00:07:44.699 --> 00:07:48.540 but also the time, the expertise they bring from 00:07:48.540 --> 00:07:52.519 previous experiences, but also the network. So 00:07:52.519 --> 00:07:55.779 the angels can open doors, facilitate, you know, 00:07:55.860 --> 00:07:58.620 a meeting with somebody that it is very hard 00:07:58.620 --> 00:08:02.180 for the startup to, you know, get a call with 00:08:02.180 --> 00:08:06.339 a specific person. And we can facilitate that 00:08:06.339 --> 00:08:09.199 sometimes, you know, working with a lot of startups, 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:12.860 you end up facilitating the entire process because 00:08:12.860 --> 00:08:15.459 you can share with the entrepreneur what happened 00:08:15.459 --> 00:08:19.040 with other startups, you know, mostly more than 00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:22.019 the things to do with the things Not to do like, 00:08:22.259 --> 00:08:25.439 you know, don't go that path because I saw that 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:29.779 before. Um, so it is, it is not only advice, 00:08:30.100 --> 00:08:34.299 but sometimes it's really hands on, like going 00:08:34.299 --> 00:08:37.240 with the entrepreneurs to those calls, to those 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:39.820 meetings and facilitating the entire process. 00:08:40.299 --> 00:08:44.559 So yes, it is to be an angel. To become an angel, 00:08:44.740 --> 00:08:47.019 you need to put more than money. You need to 00:08:47.019 --> 00:08:48.960 put the money, but you need to put the time. 00:08:49.129 --> 00:08:52.590 your knowledge and your contacts to work. I'm 00:08:52.590 --> 00:08:54.629 curious because, you know, all the SERPs I talked 00:08:54.629 --> 00:08:57.690 to, they're always very confused on what criteria 00:08:57.690 --> 00:09:01.250 do VCs have, what criteria do angels have. So 00:09:01.250 --> 00:09:04.190 my question would be what criteria do you have 00:09:04.190 --> 00:09:06.490 as a business angel and how do you select these 00:09:06.490 --> 00:09:10.730 companies? You know, we can build a Congress 00:09:10.730 --> 00:09:16.190 out of that, right? But, you know, it really 00:09:16.190 --> 00:09:20.710 depends on your angel profile. So the first thing 00:09:20.710 --> 00:09:25.190 I should say about angel investors is it is very 00:09:25.190 --> 00:09:28.389 diverse. So you have angel investors that are 00:09:28.389 --> 00:09:34.350 very motivated by the potential of that startup. 00:09:35.169 --> 00:09:38.649 There are business angels that are excited with 00:09:38.649 --> 00:09:41.909 the social impact the startups can produce. There 00:09:41.909 --> 00:09:44.980 are angels that are They don't care about the 00:09:44.980 --> 00:09:47.539 business itself, but they really they are really 00:09:47.539 --> 00:09:50.399 looking for Incredible founders they want to 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:54.139 work with Because if you know if they are building 00:09:54.139 --> 00:09:57.220 the wrong thing we together we can you know pivot 00:09:57.220 --> 00:10:00.299 that and we can change the business to a Better 00:10:00.299 --> 00:10:03.139 thing, but they are really looking for incredible 00:10:03.139 --> 00:10:07.379 people that you know that different profiles 00:10:07.379 --> 00:10:12.570 But I would say that It really depends on the 00:10:12.570 --> 00:10:14.990 stage that you're investing in. If your profile 00:10:14.990 --> 00:10:18.789 is to take less risk, usually the angels that 00:10:18.789 --> 00:10:20.789 come from the corporate world, they don't like 00:10:20.789 --> 00:10:23.789 the pre -seed startups because it is chaotic 00:10:23.789 --> 00:10:27.309 and it is hard for a person that is used to work 00:10:27.309 --> 00:10:31.809 with the no assumptions to work in the chaotic 00:10:31.809 --> 00:10:35.730 world. You know, those angels, usually they prefer 00:10:35.730 --> 00:10:38.629 to invest in seed and series A or pre -series 00:10:38.629 --> 00:10:44.970 A. And in that case, you want to look to the 00:10:44.970 --> 00:10:48.710 traction of that startup, to the proof in the 00:10:48.710 --> 00:10:51.230 market, and you look more to the business side 00:10:51.230 --> 00:10:56.269 of things. But for myself, I prefer to invest 00:10:56.269 --> 00:10:59.330 in pre -seed. What I love is to create business, 00:10:59.570 --> 00:11:04.190 not to manage businesses. So when a startup starts 00:11:04.190 --> 00:11:07.610 going more into the managing side of things, 00:11:07.870 --> 00:11:13.610 I usually get out because I don't like managing 00:11:13.610 --> 00:11:16.029 companies. What I like is building new companies. 00:11:17.230 --> 00:11:21.309 So because I prefer to invest in pre -seed, a 00:11:21.309 --> 00:11:24.009 lot of times I invest in startups that are pre 00:11:24.009 --> 00:11:27.970 -sales. So when the business model is not yet 00:11:27.970 --> 00:11:32.250 proven, is not yet designed, I know we are still 00:11:32.250 --> 00:11:36.139 figuring it out. So I love that stage. Because 00:11:36.139 --> 00:11:40.940 of that, that's very, it is, but it is very funny. 00:11:41.580 --> 00:11:44.259 You know, super exciting because you can really 00:11:44.259 --> 00:11:46.399 influence. It can be part of it. If the business 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:48.580 is already running and you're putting money, 00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:52.519 you can help on structuring the company and becoming 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:55.000 more organized. You can help with the governance. 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:57.899 You can help with sales, but all that is very 00:11:57.899 --> 00:12:02.200 technical. You know, it's not strategic. So in 00:12:02.200 --> 00:12:05.519 the very beginning, it is much more interesting. 00:12:05.629 --> 00:12:08.169 You know, because it is more design thinking 00:12:08.169 --> 00:12:12.570 if you want, it's more, you need to think about 00:12:12.570 --> 00:12:15.330 what is needed in the world. You need to think 00:12:15.330 --> 00:12:19.529 differently and that freedom of thought, that's 00:12:19.529 --> 00:12:22.610 what excites me. So in the end, I end up involving 00:12:22.610 --> 00:12:24.629 more other people than the business because I 00:12:24.629 --> 00:12:28.230 have no business to assess. You know, there is 00:12:28.230 --> 00:12:31.129 nothing to assess if there is no business yet. 00:12:31.850 --> 00:12:33.429 And I guess you probably end up being a lot more 00:12:33.429 --> 00:12:35.679 passionate about What are you investing in? Then 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:38.019 if you were to invest in later stage, because 00:12:38.019 --> 00:12:40.000 later stage, you're concerned about your entry 00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:42.580 point and your exit point. Whereas if you go 00:12:42.580 --> 00:12:44.340 from the beginning, from the inception, from 00:12:44.340 --> 00:12:46.240 the idea, then it's completely different. You 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:48.019 actually do believe in that idea strongly and 00:12:48.019 --> 00:12:49.500 you believe that idea is going to make money. 00:12:49.860 --> 00:12:53.919 So it's a lot of commitment from your end. Yeah. 00:12:54.019 --> 00:12:57.399 I think, you know, if I want just to big bounty 00:12:57.399 --> 00:13:02.159 out of money, there are much better options. 00:13:03.779 --> 00:13:07.000 You know, to become an angel investor is not 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:09.659 the easiest way to make money. Because you need 00:13:09.659 --> 00:13:12.580 to put a lot of work. You need to put a lot of 00:13:12.580 --> 00:13:16.240 time. So you need to really commit with what 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:21.840 you're doing. So there are easier ways to multiply 00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:25.919 your money. So if you want to engage in the angel 00:13:25.919 --> 00:13:28.279 world, you should only do that. I usually say 00:13:28.279 --> 00:13:31.279 to the entrepreneurs that don't start a startup. 00:13:31.580 --> 00:13:35.399 If you can work for somebody, if you are okay 00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:38.360 with working for somebody else, go there and 00:13:38.360 --> 00:13:43.720 work for them. So if just only commit in with 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:46.940 building a startup, if you cannot sleep, but 00:13:46.940 --> 00:13:50.960 not doing that, you know, only if you can, there 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:54.500 is a bigger force pushing you to do it. So that's 00:13:54.500 --> 00:13:57.340 the same thing with angel investors only if you 00:13:57.340 --> 00:14:01.240 really need that connection with startups and 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:03.500 entrepreneurs. If you need that to be happy, 00:14:04.779 --> 00:14:06.580 that's the only reason for you to become an angel 00:14:06.580 --> 00:14:08.899 investor. If you need that, if you like that 00:14:08.899 --> 00:14:12.059 process, if you like to be involved in that process. 00:14:12.240 --> 00:14:16.340 So it is a lot of work, but it is not only giving. 00:14:16.980 --> 00:14:19.399 It is taking a lot, you know, because you learn 00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:21.960 a lot from the founders. You learn a lot about, 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:24.759 you know, about new business models, new technologies, 00:14:25.039 --> 00:14:28.149 you know, new ways of doing things. That's For 00:14:28.149 --> 00:14:30.649 me, that's outcome also. The outcome is not only 00:14:30.649 --> 00:14:34.909 financial outcome. That is also outcome. And 00:14:34.909 --> 00:14:36.929 how, you know, when you're growing core angels, 00:14:36.950 --> 00:14:39.250 because now it's in different countries, you 00:14:39.250 --> 00:14:42.129 guys have tons of members. How was that journey 00:14:42.129 --> 00:14:44.330 like? I mean, was it hard? Was it easy? How do 00:14:44.330 --> 00:14:47.269 you even get started? Just thinking about the 00:14:47.269 --> 00:14:49.370 end result, how do you even like came about the 00:14:49.370 --> 00:14:50.950 product you have now? Not the product, but the 00:14:50.950 --> 00:14:54.809 network you have now? You know, it is hard. But 00:14:54.809 --> 00:14:58.379 not in a bad way. You know, I built companies 00:14:58.379 --> 00:15:02.179 before didn't work though. Um, so, so, you know, 00:15:02.220 --> 00:15:03.899 sometimes you build something that you really 00:15:03.899 --> 00:15:08.679 believe that is the next thing and it really 00:15:08.679 --> 00:15:11.519 doesn't work. It happens, but that's part of 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:16.000 the process. So, so when I started red angels, 00:15:16.100 --> 00:15:20.100 I was not, you know, certain that it wouldn't 00:15:20.100 --> 00:15:22.500 work. When I started core angels, I was not certain 00:15:22.500 --> 00:15:26.610 that that would work. So now. last year I saw 00:15:26.610 --> 00:15:30.889 that my angel I didn't know if uh it was uh to 00:15:30.889 --> 00:15:34.529 uh to become a success or not so you know in 00:15:34.529 --> 00:15:36.789 the end we don't know and that's why this is 00:15:36.789 --> 00:15:39.330 so exciting because you don't know and you need 00:15:39.330 --> 00:15:42.289 to really make it happen right you need to put 00:15:42.289 --> 00:15:44.669 the effort to make them and that's the exciting 00:15:44.669 --> 00:15:47.570 part of building new businesses so why don't 00:15:47.570 --> 00:15:50.230 I start you know but in the end in the end I 00:15:50.230 --> 00:15:53.049 think that all entrepreneurs in whatever business 00:15:53.049 --> 00:15:58.970 if you are only focused on the financial success 00:15:58.970 --> 00:16:02.070 you will not succeed you know it looks like a 00:16:02.070 --> 00:16:07.450 common sentence but saying if you're really if 00:16:07.450 --> 00:16:09.929 you're focused on the financial outcome it will 00:16:09.929 --> 00:16:13.070 not happen because you will not have you will 00:16:13.070 --> 00:16:16.769 not put enough effort to it so the only way for 00:16:16.769 --> 00:16:20.830 you to do it is to have success is to is to with 00:16:20.830 --> 00:16:23.309 a problem you're solving if you have the commitment 00:16:23.309 --> 00:16:28.149 to solve that problem And if that is bigger than 00:16:28.149 --> 00:16:32.590 you. So I'm not that passionate. I only work 00:16:32.590 --> 00:16:37.009 with angels. But I'm not that passionate about 00:16:37.009 --> 00:16:39.830 the change the angels can bring to the world. 00:16:40.149 --> 00:16:41.690 I don't believe that the angels are the ones 00:16:41.690 --> 00:16:44.529 that change the world for the better. What I 00:16:44.529 --> 00:16:47.389 believe is that the entrepreneurs are the ones 00:16:47.389 --> 00:16:50.389 that change the world for the better. Those are 00:16:50.389 --> 00:16:53.429 the ones that build a better world. And I found 00:16:53.429 --> 00:16:57.909 that One of the main problems of those entrepreneurs 00:16:57.909 --> 00:17:04.490 is that the angels around them are not experienced, 00:17:04.789 --> 00:17:07.369 are very amateur and they do a lot of mistakes. 00:17:07.930 --> 00:17:11.190 So the best way I found to help those entrepreneurs 00:17:11.190 --> 00:17:13.690 was to help the angels to become more professional, 00:17:13.750 --> 00:17:16.789 to do it right. So the reason why I started Red 00:17:16.789 --> 00:17:19.349 Angels, why I started Core Angels and why I started 00:17:19.349 --> 00:17:23.069 Wine Angels is all because I want the angels 00:17:23.069 --> 00:17:26.880 to to become better angels because the entrepreneurs 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:30.940 deserve it. So when you have that purpose behind, 00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:33.579 everything is easier because even when the things 00:17:33.579 --> 00:17:36.079 are not going in the direction that you dreamed, 00:17:37.099 --> 00:17:38.980 you're still passionate about the problem and 00:17:38.980 --> 00:17:41.740 you will find a way because you need to solve 00:17:41.740 --> 00:17:44.519 it. I'm curious on one thing. What would you 00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:48.420 divide? What do we sell to a startup when they're 00:17:48.420 --> 00:17:50.380 looking out for angels to be on the lookout for? 00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:51.640 What do you tell them? Hey, actually, you know 00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:53.309 what? They're going to ask you questions, but 00:17:53.309 --> 00:17:55.430 you also need to ask A, B and C questions. So 00:17:55.430 --> 00:17:57.250 what will those questions be? You're referring 00:17:57.250 --> 00:18:00.230 to the questions that the founders should ask 00:18:00.230 --> 00:18:03.150 to the angels? Yes. How would they qualify them 00:18:03.150 --> 00:18:05.650 as being the type of angels they would want to 00:18:05.650 --> 00:18:07.849 work with? I think it doesn't work with the simple 00:18:07.849 --> 00:18:12.809 questions. I usually talk about the probation 00:18:12.809 --> 00:18:15.509 period. It is the same thing as asking, you know, 00:18:15.509 --> 00:18:20.089 if you're selecting a female to marry, which 00:18:20.089 --> 00:18:23.339 questions you will... It's not about, you know, 00:18:23.339 --> 00:18:25.480 the specific criteria, right? It's the criteria. 00:18:26.099 --> 00:18:28.299 What are the traits you look for? What are the 00:18:28.299 --> 00:18:31.539 key elements you look for? In the end, it is 00:18:31.539 --> 00:18:34.759 much more complex. So in the end, you don't want 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:38.599 to ask specific questions and analyze it, you 00:18:38.599 --> 00:18:41.359 know, completely rationally, because that's not 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:44.059 the way it works. It is more dating that negotiation. 00:18:44.779 --> 00:18:48.160 It is dating. So because it is dating, the founders 00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:51.970 should first try to work with that angel. ask 00:18:51.970 --> 00:18:57.390 for help if the angel is not interested in helping 00:18:57.390 --> 00:19:00.950 doesn't have the time to help you if the inputs 00:19:00.950 --> 00:19:05.049 are not good you cannot find a way to work together 00:19:05.049 --> 00:19:07.829 forget forget that angel and go after another 00:19:07.829 --> 00:19:13.009 one try it out first it is dating it is dating 00:19:13.009 --> 00:19:17.470 for both sides right? so the angel should date 00:19:17.470 --> 00:19:20.269 the startup and the startup should date the angel 00:19:20.269 --> 00:19:24.670 and in the end only works if both are in love. 00:19:26.250 --> 00:19:28.470 That's it. That's a really nice way of looking 00:19:28.470 --> 00:19:31.529 at things. Okay, that's quite interesting. So, 00:19:31.769 --> 00:19:34.170 you know, as a former business owner and obviously 00:19:34.170 --> 00:19:38.529 as a business angel now, would you advise someone 00:19:38.529 --> 00:19:41.730 to always go over for angels instead of VC funds 00:19:41.730 --> 00:19:44.529 or actually depends on the start, depends on 00:19:44.529 --> 00:19:48.910 too many things? It really depends. You know, 00:19:49.450 --> 00:19:54.349 I should say that if you can do everything yourself 00:19:54.349 --> 00:19:59.190 if you can build the next unicorn without angels 00:19:59.190 --> 00:20:03.569 or bcs why should you look for them? you don't 00:20:03.569 --> 00:20:06.509 need them, right? so if you can do that by yourself 00:20:06.509 --> 00:20:12.430 with your team you know go move forward and do 00:20:12.430 --> 00:20:17.769 it so you only need angels or bcs if something 00:20:17.769 --> 00:20:22.680 is lacking is missing in your journey. So if 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:27.400 you go to VCs, usually the VCs, you know, there 00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:30.559 are VCs and VCs, there are bad VCs and good VCs, 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:34.079 but for sure when you go to VCs, you need, it's 00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:37.920 because you need a lot of money to be invested 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:40.680 to grow because you cannot grow without that 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:45.920 money. So to accelerate your growth and you know, 00:20:46.299 --> 00:20:50.640 beyond money, Usually the VCs can help you with 00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:55.079 the next funding rounds. They can help you on 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:58.279 structuring more like in the management side 00:20:58.279 --> 00:21:00.839 of things like structuring more your company, 00:21:01.160 --> 00:21:05.599 the processes, the hiring process, the sales 00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:08.480 process, the governance, all that stuff, the 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:12.099 administrative side of the company. So the VCs 00:21:12.099 --> 00:21:16.390 can usually help you a lot with that. When you're 00:21:16.390 --> 00:21:19.450 looking for an angel, usually you're looking 00:21:19.450 --> 00:21:23.430 for an angel in the early stages. That's because 00:21:23.430 --> 00:21:26.789 the angels are better on helping you to discover 00:21:26.789 --> 00:21:31.809 the business. They are better on that chaotic 00:21:31.809 --> 00:21:34.809 moment. The VCs, they don't like that chaotic 00:21:34.809 --> 00:21:38.150 moment because usually the people in the VC working 00:21:38.150 --> 00:21:40.349 with you, they are not entrepreneurs themselves. 00:21:41.890 --> 00:21:45.309 Sometimes they have GPs that are entrepreneurs, 00:21:45.769 --> 00:21:48.190 but the person that will work with you is not 00:21:48.190 --> 00:21:51.650 an entrepreneur So because of that is more technical 00:21:51.650 --> 00:21:54.430 person. So when you when you're looking for angels, 00:21:54.430 --> 00:21:57.269 you're looking for somebody to discuss strategy 00:21:57.269 --> 00:22:01.470 with but Usually is not a person that will help 00:22:01.470 --> 00:22:05.029 you So much in the technical things but more 00:22:05.029 --> 00:22:07.809 in the strategic things So I would say that that's 00:22:07.809 --> 00:22:09.930 normal that in the very beginning when you're 00:22:09.930 --> 00:22:12.759 defining the strategy When you're searching for 00:22:12.759 --> 00:22:14.819 a business model, the business angel makes more 00:22:14.819 --> 00:22:19.539 sense. And when you already found like the product 00:22:19.539 --> 00:22:21.559 market feed and you know what you're doing, but 00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:23.740 you need to structure better things and you need 00:22:23.740 --> 00:22:26.759 more money going to VCE makes more sense. But 00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:29.380 of course I'm generalizing things because then 00:22:29.380 --> 00:22:32.559 you have a lot of gray areas, right? And you 00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:35.319 know, the question that I got asked a lot on 00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:37.420 all the events I do and everything is, which 00:22:37.420 --> 00:22:40.960 is, is there a better region to be asking? money 00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:43.519 from or to be working from, because a lot of 00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:46.140 people in Europe say, let's move to the U S and 00:22:46.140 --> 00:22:47.819 I at least you just had a conversation with the 00:22:47.819 --> 00:22:50.539 American founder actually moved to Lisbon. So 00:22:50.539 --> 00:22:52.759 what do you think about this different ecosystems 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:54.920 and is there a better one or actually it's all 00:22:54.920 --> 00:22:58.940 the same? Yeah, there is a better, there is one 00:22:58.940 --> 00:23:01.799 that is better than all the others, which is 00:23:01.799 --> 00:23:08.900 the community you're in. You know, the thing 00:23:08.900 --> 00:23:13.240 is that Mainly if you are in the very early stages. 00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:19.079 If you're raising a Series A, it is more about 00:23:19.079 --> 00:23:22.440 your metrics. But in the very early stages, people 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:25.319 that invest in early stages, they tend to invest 00:23:25.319 --> 00:23:28.839 in proximity. So sometimes I already invested 00:23:28.839 --> 00:23:32.380 in startups that are different countries, in 00:23:32.380 --> 00:23:36.019 other countries that I know of. But I end up 00:23:36.019 --> 00:23:39.789 feeling that I cannot build a... I'm not able 00:23:39.789 --> 00:23:42.349 to build the same type of relationship. You know, 00:23:42.529 --> 00:23:46.049 that's why most angels invest in two hours distance 00:23:46.049 --> 00:23:52.470 from them. Because, you know, you want that agility 00:23:52.470 --> 00:23:57.910 of being with a person. So, if you're in the 00:23:57.910 --> 00:24:00.430 band at the very beginning, I would say that 00:24:00.430 --> 00:24:04.289 if I'm building a new startup now, I will raise 00:24:04.289 --> 00:24:08.269 the first round in proximity, angels around me. 00:24:08.430 --> 00:24:13.509 and the second round I'll try to have a mix of 00:24:13.509 --> 00:24:19.390 local and international VC so then in series 00:24:19.390 --> 00:24:22.549 A I'm raising internationally and I don't care 00:24:22.549 --> 00:24:26.849 anymore about the local evasives so but that's 00:24:26.849 --> 00:24:28.750 a process you know in the very beginning in the 00:24:28.750 --> 00:24:32.390 first round I would say that the best place to 00:24:32.390 --> 00:24:35.299 raise is in your local community It's a refreshing 00:24:35.299 --> 00:24:37.079 approach because everyone always thinks that 00:24:37.079 --> 00:24:38.819 the grass is greener on the other side. But in 00:24:38.819 --> 00:24:41.380 reality, just start where you're based and then 00:24:41.380 --> 00:24:44.539 kind of go from there. Yeah. And you know, talent 00:24:44.539 --> 00:24:47.819 is really everywhere, everywhere, everywhere. 00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:51.839 You can find talent in, I don't want to name 00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:55.339 countries to put in different, you know, polls, 00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:59.480 but you can find great entrepreneurs everywhere, 00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:05.079 everywhere. there is no reason to focus in a 00:25:05.079 --> 00:25:08.980 specific because when you go to crowded ecosystems 00:25:08.980 --> 00:25:14.500 you not only find you know more you find startups 00:25:14.500 --> 00:25:17.799 that are investment ready because they have a 00:25:17.799 --> 00:25:21.759 better ecosystem to help them to become prepared 00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:25.900 right but then you also find more investors to 00:25:25.900 --> 00:25:29.430 invest in those startups so You're looking for 00:25:29.430 --> 00:25:31.970 a startup that is approaching a blue ocean. Why 00:25:31.970 --> 00:25:34.529 should you approach a red ocean? You mentioned 00:25:34.529 --> 00:25:37.390 something peculiar. At least here in the UK, 00:25:37.470 --> 00:25:40.289 you have these investment vehicles where it's 00:25:40.289 --> 00:25:42.910 called the SEIS and EIS, as I'm sure you probably 00:25:42.910 --> 00:25:45.410 know about them. And for the audience listening, 00:25:45.710 --> 00:25:48.109 it literally means that as an investor, you do 00:25:48.109 --> 00:25:50.630 recoup some of your losses if they do occur and 00:25:50.630 --> 00:25:53.829 you also get some tax deductions. You primarily 00:25:53.829 --> 00:25:55.450 invest in Portugal, but I know you also invest 00:25:55.450 --> 00:25:57.750 elsewhere. Are you able to easily find these 00:25:57.750 --> 00:25:59.589 mechanisms for investing in these countries or 00:25:59.589 --> 00:26:03.529 actually did not exist at all? No. So the short 00:26:03.529 --> 00:26:09.509 answer is not at all. So, you know, we now, because 00:26:09.509 --> 00:26:11.750 I'm the vice president for angels and investors 00:26:11.750 --> 00:26:16.529 in Portugal, I'm used to be in meetings discussing 00:26:16.529 --> 00:26:19.269 with the government, fiscal incentives for angels 00:26:19.269 --> 00:26:22.329 and so on. and we are right now doing that with 00:26:22.329 --> 00:26:25.789 the current Portuguese government and we use 00:26:25.789 --> 00:26:30.569 for example the UK example as a benchmark because 00:26:30.569 --> 00:26:34.269 that's one of the reasons why investment in startups 00:26:34.269 --> 00:26:38.049 exploded so much in countries like like UK or 00:26:38.049 --> 00:26:41.869 Israel is because of the fiscal incentives so 00:26:41.869 --> 00:26:44.529 yeah if you have a fiscal incentive to invest 00:26:44.529 --> 00:26:46.730 in innovative companies instead of investing 00:26:46.730 --> 00:26:49.440 in real estate everybody will put the money in 00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:52.559 innovative starts but if the fiscal incentive 00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:55.019 is there to invest in real estate everybody will 00:26:55.019 --> 00:26:58.140 invest in real estate that's the way it works 00:26:58.140 --> 00:27:03.299 so right now in Portugal we don't have a scheme 00:27:03.299 --> 00:27:09.819 like the LITK has to really promote angel investing 00:27:09.819 --> 00:27:12.900 we are working on that I think next year we will 00:27:12.900 --> 00:27:19.299 have good news on that but It is always a fight 00:27:19.299 --> 00:27:22.460 because we need to prove that this is strategic 00:27:22.460 --> 00:27:25.779 for the country. Individually, you can move to 00:27:25.779 --> 00:27:29.500 another country fiscally to have access to those 00:27:29.500 --> 00:27:32.240 incentives. But I think it makes no sense because 00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:38.680 I'm really committed to help the Portuguese startup 00:27:38.680 --> 00:27:42.539 ecosystem to improve and to grow. So I really 00:27:42.539 --> 00:27:46.430 want to contribute locally. It's funny we're 00:27:46.430 --> 00:27:48.549 talking about the Portuguese ecosystem because 00:27:48.549 --> 00:27:50.109 a couple of years ago, they actually changed 00:27:50.109 --> 00:27:52.910 how hard it is or how it became quite easy to 00:27:52.910 --> 00:27:55.069 create a company. It's still not as easy as it 00:27:55.069 --> 00:27:56.869 is in the UK where you could just do it all online 00:27:56.869 --> 00:27:59.849 and it costs 14 pounds and you have a limited 00:27:59.849 --> 00:28:02.890 company. How big of a role does that play in 00:28:02.890 --> 00:28:05.690 your day to day? The complexities of the legal 00:28:05.690 --> 00:28:08.450 system when it comes out to investing, especially 00:28:08.450 --> 00:28:17.930 angel investing. pretty easy. So, if you go to 00:28:17.930 --> 00:28:21.490 Spain that is right there, it is much more bureaucratic 00:28:21.490 --> 00:28:25.609 and complicated. So Portugal is not, uh, Estonia, 00:28:25.930 --> 00:28:28.890 yet, in that sense. Estonia should, you know, 00:28:29.210 --> 00:28:33.609 maybe is the easiest place, you know, to set 00:28:33.609 --> 00:28:37.589 up a company and to avoid bureaucracy, but we 00:28:37.589 --> 00:28:41.069 are not there, but it is pretty good, so I can, 00:28:41.069 --> 00:28:44.849 I can't complain. So, Of course, sometimes you 00:28:44.849 --> 00:28:48.450 have bureaucracy in different things, but it 00:28:48.450 --> 00:28:53.849 is not anymore like we used it to like 10 or 00:28:53.849 --> 00:28:57.410 15 years ago. It is much more straightforward. 00:28:58.569 --> 00:29:01.710 I think Portugal improved a lot on that. So it 00:29:01.710 --> 00:29:04.390 is much easier to do business in Portugal now 00:29:04.390 --> 00:29:07.910 than it was 10 years ago. I think it is a good 00:29:07.910 --> 00:29:09.970 place to set up a company. That's why, you know, 00:29:10.049 --> 00:29:12.920 one thing I'm seeing is that a lot of foreign 00:29:12.920 --> 00:29:15.619 entrepreneurs coming to Portugal to set up their 00:29:15.619 --> 00:29:19.220 startups. Not only because of the startup ecosystem, 00:29:19.960 --> 00:29:22.480 because, you know, Portugal became like a hub. 00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:24.640 When you come to Portugal with your startup, 00:29:25.339 --> 00:29:30.119 you will end up in an event that most people 00:29:30.119 --> 00:29:34.440 are not Portuguese. So most partners are not 00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:36.339 Portuguese, most investors are not Portuguese. 00:29:36.420 --> 00:29:41.099 So it is like an international hub now. So I 00:29:41.099 --> 00:29:45.599 think. It is not about Portuguese people anymore. 00:29:45.700 --> 00:29:47.940 It is about the entire ecosystem that the Portuguese 00:29:47.940 --> 00:29:50.920 people of course contribute to, but a lot of 00:29:50.920 --> 00:29:53.319 other people contribute to. And now it is pretty 00:29:53.319 --> 00:29:56.440 easy to do business in Portugal. Do you think, 00:29:56.559 --> 00:29:59.339 you know, overall it became this very fluid ecosystem 00:29:59.339 --> 00:30:02.720 where things move quickly and people are creating 00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:04.500 a lot of stuff from your experience and from 00:30:04.500 --> 00:30:08.799 the startups who you meet? Yeah, for sure. I 00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:13.759 think, you know, it is always a Of course, if 00:30:13.759 --> 00:30:16.700 you are in a crisis, the context is important. 00:30:16.980 --> 00:30:19.960 If you are in a financial crisis, everybody starts 00:30:19.960 --> 00:30:22.539 building businesses. When things are comfortable, 00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:29.720 people get comfortable. Portuguese are very adaptable. 00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:32.619 It means that we can adapt. If things are good, 00:30:32.759 --> 00:30:35.660 we are good. If things are not good, we just 00:30:35.660 --> 00:30:38.319 get our hands dirty. So that's how it works. 00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:43.299 We want to do something. We we get it done. So 00:30:43.299 --> 00:30:47.299 it's more it's more like I would say that it 00:30:47.299 --> 00:30:50.400 is very fluid like a lot of people is doing Completely 00:30:50.400 --> 00:30:53.039 different things. It was not like that, you know 00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:55.960 the cultural environment in Portugal was like, 00:30:56.059 --> 00:30:59.140 you know Go to a big corporate and find a good 00:30:59.140 --> 00:31:01.319 job for the entire life. It is not like that 00:31:01.319 --> 00:31:03.980 anymore You know people want to to build great 00:31:03.980 --> 00:31:06.579 things and want to work for interesting companies 00:31:06.579 --> 00:31:11.119 and not anymore that those still be courts I 00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:13.299 guess they're more willing to take risks, right? 00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:16.400 Which is a big, big difference. It's funny because 00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:18.700 when I talk with, for example, people from Spain, 00:31:19.319 --> 00:31:21.240 they always say the same thing, which is like, 00:31:21.460 --> 00:31:23.299 they still don't have the mentality where it's 00:31:23.299 --> 00:31:25.799 actually worth moving away from a big company 00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:28.160 and a very nice salary and all the comforts it 00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:30.160 brings to launch your own business. They still 00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:31.980 say, why would you do that? You're so comfortable 00:31:31.980 --> 00:31:34.160 here. Why would you go and risk it all to launch 00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:37.019 a startup? But then that's because maybe there's 00:31:37.019 --> 00:31:41.160 no culture of rewarding, I guess, risk. as a 00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:43.180 whole, as a country. So that probably plays a 00:31:43.180 --> 00:31:47.720 big role in it, doesn't it? Yeah, I agree. But 00:31:47.720 --> 00:31:51.460 I think that, of course, the culture of each 00:31:51.460 --> 00:31:54.839 country plays a role there. But I think also, 00:31:55.339 --> 00:31:59.180 you know, the international context of the cycles 00:31:59.180 --> 00:32:03.500 play a role. So in the same country, you can 00:32:03.500 --> 00:32:07.920 see that culture is changing in five years because 00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:12.279 the context changed. So You know, I think it 00:32:12.279 --> 00:32:15.359 is not... We cannot say that this country is 00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:19.160 like that and that country is like this. Because 00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:22.200 things are evolving a lot. For example, in Spain, 00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:26.160 that we mentioned before, in Spain things are 00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:30.019 evolving pretty well. So, not only on the political 00:32:30.019 --> 00:32:33.640 side, they have a new startup law that is favorable 00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:36.519 for startups. Also, Portugal launched the new 00:32:36.519 --> 00:32:39.720 startup law that is interesting for startups. 00:32:39.950 --> 00:32:43.809 So, you know, in Spain, they are now, you know, 00:32:44.069 --> 00:32:47.150 I think, getting back to it because they were 00:32:47.150 --> 00:32:50.190 dipping on the entrepreneurial plan during a 00:32:50.190 --> 00:32:53.829 lot of time, but they are now, wait, they wake 00:32:53.829 --> 00:32:56.450 up and they are doing the right thing. So I'm 00:32:56.450 --> 00:33:00.009 pretty confident on the Spanish ecosystem now 00:33:00.009 --> 00:33:03.690 also. Do you think overall, is it still, a lot 00:33:03.690 --> 00:33:05.109 of people complain that it's very hard to raise 00:33:05.109 --> 00:33:07.990 money nowadays. Do you think it's hard or quite 00:33:07.990 --> 00:33:10.390 on the contrary, it's moving around? The money 00:33:10.390 --> 00:33:13.609 is around, right? And you see, you know, you 00:33:13.609 --> 00:33:18.289 see in the reports, you don't see that the amount, 00:33:18.450 --> 00:33:21.349 the total amount of money invested by angels 00:33:21.349 --> 00:33:27.109 is not fluctuating a lot. So this economic cycles, 00:33:27.109 --> 00:33:32.019 they affect more the VC investment. So you can 00:33:32.019 --> 00:33:37.519 say that nowadays it is harder to raise series 00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:41.160 B or series C rounds and you had a lot of down 00:33:41.160 --> 00:33:47.500 rounds because 2018 -2019 the valuations were 00:33:47.500 --> 00:33:54.460 crazy and then Covid came and all the uncertainty 00:33:54.460 --> 00:33:59.339 and you know... The valuation came down because 00:33:59.339 --> 00:34:05.059 the money was not so available, maybe in 2021. 00:34:05.460 --> 00:34:10.940 It was a very bad year for that. But you know, 00:34:11.059 --> 00:34:16.179 the angels were more stable because angels don't 00:34:16.179 --> 00:34:19.219 fundraise. You know, the VCs are fundraising 00:34:19.219 --> 00:34:22.500 from Elvis. The angels don't, the angels, you 00:34:22.500 --> 00:34:24.780 know, not... It's not because the economic cycle 00:34:24.780 --> 00:34:26.980 is changing that the Angels have less money or 00:34:26.980 --> 00:34:30.019 more money, you know, the money is already there. 00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:35.480 So, it is not changing that much on the Angel 00:34:35.480 --> 00:34:40.440 side, so it is still, I should say, easy or difficult, 00:34:40.519 --> 00:34:43.960 but not different from what it was before to 00:34:43.960 --> 00:34:47.000 raise the first two rounds. I think after Series 00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:50.440 A got more difficult to raise bigger rounds, 00:34:50.519 --> 00:34:54.599 and I see one... One interesting trend is startups 00:34:54.599 --> 00:34:59.300 raising two or three rounds and then doing the 00:34:59.300 --> 00:35:03.059 edit instead of raising a lot of rounds because 00:35:03.059 --> 00:35:06.940 you can, you know, when your startup valuation 00:35:06.940 --> 00:35:14.519 is around 20 million, 50 million, you have much 00:35:14.519 --> 00:35:17.800 more potential buyers, quires for your company. 00:35:18.579 --> 00:35:22.400 When you are in unicorn, You know, the possible 00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:25.719 acquirers are much less because all the others, 00:35:25.900 --> 00:35:30.519 they cannot pay that amount. I see a lot of startups 00:35:30.519 --> 00:35:36.579 exiting in the 20 million to 50 million interval. 00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:38.519 And that's interesting because you can raise 00:35:38.519 --> 00:35:42.159 two, three rounds and exit instead of fighting 00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:46.159 for the long run for the home run. But it's, 00:35:46.179 --> 00:35:48.159 it's, I mean, every time you see someone IPOing 00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:50.750 and there's been so many cases of that. It's 00:35:50.750 --> 00:35:52.550 very much hit or miss, isn't it? Yeah, there 00:35:52.550 --> 00:35:54.769 have been amazing success stories, but there's 00:35:54.769 --> 00:35:56.829 also been really bad ones where you just think, 00:35:57.110 --> 00:35:59.050 this didn't work. Actually, mentioning work, 00:35:59.190 --> 00:36:01.429 WeWork was, you know, it's a very well -known 00:36:01.429 --> 00:36:03.789 example where the evaluation was crazy, but then 00:36:03.789 --> 00:36:05.090 it went to Mark, it was like, hold on, you guys 00:36:05.090 --> 00:36:07.170 are not a tech company at all. How can you be 00:36:07.170 --> 00:36:09.110 justifying and saying you're a tech company? 00:36:09.329 --> 00:36:11.889 Yeah. So that did actually happen a couple of 00:36:11.889 --> 00:36:13.409 times already. So yeah, it's an interesting one. 00:36:13.590 --> 00:36:15.909 One final question. which is if people want to 00:36:15.909 --> 00:36:18.469 reach out to you and talk to you, and I'm pretty 00:36:18.469 --> 00:36:19.889 sure you're going to get a lot of startups after 00:36:19.889 --> 00:36:22.389 this, how can you do so? I think that the easiest 00:36:22.389 --> 00:36:27.750 way is through LinkedIn. Peter Bandena, LinkedIn. 00:36:28.170 --> 00:36:29.889 There are not a lot of Peter Bandena's around. 00:36:30.710 --> 00:36:34.710 So kind of easy to find. Or through Red Angels 00:36:34.710 --> 00:36:40.690 or Core Angels or Y -Angel. You can always reach 00:36:40.690 --> 00:36:43.030 me. But the easiest way, the more direct way 00:36:43.030 --> 00:36:44.960 is through LinkedIn. Peter, thank you so much 00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:46.340 for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure. 00:36:47.179 --> 00:36:49.639 Thank you very much, Ricardo. It was very cool 00:36:49.639 --> 00:36:52.280 to chat with you. Very good conversations. Thank 00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:54.559 you. The podcast is also sponsored by Notion 00:36:54.559 --> 00:36:57.480 .so. Notion is offering six months for free for 00:36:57.480 --> 00:36:59.980 new users. Make sure you check out our website, 00:37:00.139 --> 00:37:02.659 the startupevents .co .uk to read in the software. 00:37:03.019 --> 00:37:05.920 This podcast is also sponsored by startupnetworks 00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:09.519 .co .uk. Startupnetworks, it's an online forum 00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:11.500 where you can find all the resources you need 00:37:11.500 --> 00:37:14.039 to run your startup. From grants to investors 00:37:14.039 --> 00:37:16.219 to tips and tricks on how to be successful in 00:37:16.219 --> 00:37:18.960 your startup. This podcast is also sponsored 00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:22.539 by ODEV Tech. ODEV Tech is your premier software 00:37:22.539 --> 00:37:24.440 development partner. 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