Welcome to the Innovation Conversation, a podcast
about innovators, both in business and real life.
Hosted by myself, Ricardo Rescual and Harry McCona.
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Hi, and welcome to another episode of The Innovation
Conversation. Today we are joined by Tyler Gordon.
Tyler, welcome to the show. Hey, thank you so
much Ricardo. Pleasure having you here, Tyler.
Tyler, would you like to introduce yourself a
bit to the audience, please? Yeah, sure. Well,
my name is Tyler Gordon. I'm originally from
South Florida, but I've been living in Portugal
for about four and a half years now. And I would
say I'm a bit of a serial entrepreneur. I built
a few successful businesses and consultancies
and currently building some interesting things
here in Portugal. Interesting. Okay, so there's
a lot to unravel here. Obviously, I'm biased
because you're in my hometown. So I'm going to
ask you a lot of questions about the move to
Portugal, which for me is quite fascinating.
But I guess the first one, can you tell us a
bit more like all the companies you got started
and how did you end up in Portugal? How did that
journey went? Yeah, yeah. I mean, since I was
in middle school and high school, my buddies
and I were selling websites. I guess my first
big business that I built was in my 20s, we built
a real estate technology business that built
scheduling messaging tools for real estate agents
called Agent Inbox. We ended up scaling it to
about 10 % of the US, raising some money and
exiting the business. I'm also the chief operating
officer of a consulting business called Big Binary.
So we're a high -end software development agency
and we have about 200 engineers and employees.
And we build software for Angelus, Major League
Baseball. We've had four startups that we've
built that have been sold. I actually hired them
back in 2013 to build my first startup. That's
how I got connected with them. And just building
some other organizations here in Portugal besides
Tejamed. One's a intergenerational housing charity.
We're matching older Portuguese people that live
alone with people that need affordable housing.
Okay, interesting. So how did it happen? Because
everyone I talk to in Europe always wants to
go to the States, but you actually move the other
way back or the other way. I mean the other way
around. So how did it happen? Yeah, so I've been
working remotely since 2013. And so my last business
in the US, you know, I could be remote, but I
had to go to a lot of meetings and in person
things. And it was always a dream of mine to
live abroad and to spend time in different countries.
And so after the agent inbox company, I sold
my things and moved into my backpack and was
traveling for about two years working in helping
run that consulting business. And I arrived here
January 2020. Good timing. I had no intentions.
Perfect timing. I honestly didn't know much about
Portugal at the time. I had a bunch of Portuguese
friends from the Bay area, but that's about it.
And I liked it. So I extended one month and two
months and three months. And then the pandemic
happened and now I live here. Yeah, I feel like
living in Portugal as an American really is.
In the United States, I feel like people's identities
are tied to their work, where I feel like people
here in Europe. Work doesn't necessarily come
first and you can have relationships with people
for a very long time where nobody ever talks
about work and of my American entrepreneur, entrepreneurial
spirit being this type of community. Yeah, that
is actually, it's very true. I think at least
especially in Portugal, we tend not to ask what
people do for a living. We just take them for,
oh, they're here. What's your name? Okay, we'll
deal with you as an individual, not so much show
your job title because Unless you're a doctor,
which can always use a doctor, right? Then people
really don't care, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think it's really... I think there's a balance
that I like halfway between the two, where work
does not come first in life, but also as people
that like building things. I mean, it's just
our passion and there's really nothing I'd rather
do most of the time than just create interesting
things. Did you find it like when you launched
your company here, so... Actually, tell us a
bit more about what you do right now with a company
in Portugal. Yes. So we're building Portugal's
first concierge doctor's clinic. Concierge medicine
has been around the United States at this point
for 20 years and some very, very large companies
in this space. And the idea behind concierge
medicine is you pay a membership fee that allows
a doctor to see less patients and provide you
with personalized care. So most care at this
point is If today is something's broke, you go
to the doctor and they fix it. For concierge,
medicine is really focused on trying to prevent
things from breaking early on. And more practical
standpoint would be both here and in the United
States, if you want to see a GP or if you have
a medicine doctor that you like, oftentimes it
takes a while to get in. If you get there, the
doctor is super late. You have a 15 -minute appointment
that's super rushed. The doctor doesn't even
know your name. They focus on giving drugs and
treating symptoms. And it's not the doctor's
fault either. I mean, the system, when doctors
are paid per volume of patients they see, they
end up seeing about 2 ,000 or 3 ,000 patients
per year. And just that's what they have to do.
With our business, Concierge Medicine, as I said,
you have a membership fee. So the doctor sees
less patients. In our clinic, it's instead of
2 ,000 or 3 ,000 patients per doctor, it's under
500. And you have a relationship with one doctor
who knows you inside and out. For example, your
first appointment is over an hour and a half
long. They get to know you. They do a comprehensive
physical. They run all these tests focused on
prevention and longevity. You can make same or
next day appointments in our clinic. They're
30 minutes to an hour, and they start on time.
The doctor gives you their cell phones. You can
call, email, text any time. And you just have
someone that like, is there for you, whatever
you need. They're proactively working with you
to make sure you're healthy. And how did you
come up with the idea? So being here four and
a half years in Portugal, I'm a human. I have
medical issues sometimes. And like, yeah, I was
just dealing with some things and getting a bit
frustrated with the lack of attention I was getting
from doctors. Sometimes after the appointment,
you know, follow up questions or if you're taking
any medicine, the doctor, you need to follow
up with the doctor. I was just not able to go
through this process in a way that I found acceptable.
I was complaining to my parents and my parents
were like, Tyler, you're a professional. Why
don't you get a concierge doctor? You know, we
both have concierge doctors here in Florida.
You should get one. And I'm like, yeah, of course.
That sounds great. I'm going to sign up immediately.
And I started researching concierge medicine
here and I couldn't find anybody doing it. And
after that I was like, okay, well, you know,
I learned a bit about the business model. I really
became very fascinated by the incentive model
of the business as well. And we decided to launch
one here in Portugal. And we're really, it's
going great at this point. Nice. Did you, you
know, comparing with the companies you launched
in the US, how hard was it to actually launch
a company in Portugal? It's been difficult to
build a business here. There's a lot of bureaucracy.
Service providers tend to move a bit slower,
less of a pressing priority for a lot of things.
So yeah, I mean in the US, You can incorporate
a business in 15 minutes on the internet and
open up a bank account shortly afterwards. Where
in Portugal, there's just a lot more details
that need to be addressed through the entire
process. I know the Portuguese government is
spending a lot of time and effort right now trying
to simplify a lot of these things, and I expect
that to be how things continue, but it's a bit
more challenging than my previous experiences.
Interesting. You know, in terms of investment
and finding investment, was that something you
did for your business right now or you're self
-funding the business? Yeah, so previous businesses,
we've raised financing, millions of dollars and
going into this business, we were very deliberate
about picking a business that would be cash flow
positive early on, that didn't require a ton
of capital, that could grow as large as we want
it to be. So for example, if we want to keep
it a small business, It could be a profitable,
healthy business where we take care of everybody.
But at the same time, if we just want to keep
growing or if we start growing quickly and we
want to raise money, we can. So at this point,
we are self -financed through our other ventures.
And we're not opposed to taking money on. I mean,
it's not a bad thing. A few of us on the team
invest in other businesses, but we just want
the optionality and also the ability to control,
have a tightly held business at this point. Interesting
and you know, what are your plans for the future
for the business? Yeah, I mean right now the
focus is just building a healthy business I mean,
it's not not only is it a business that's focused
on health, but we want a business where we pay
people really well Where people obviously the
first two years of a startup you have to bust
your butt really make things happen, but We want
a business where we can respect people's lifestyles
And we're not building a lifestyle business.
I heard a expression recently which was a dividend
business. So lifestyle business is like the small
one where you just kind of relax and you work
a couple hours a day. Everyone's trying to go
after these unicorn businesses where you need
to exit for hundreds of millions of dollars for
your investors to even be happy. Where a dividend
business is a business that can grow at its own
pace. It pays all the principles. People evolve
very well. You know, our target is to grow across
all of Portugal. We know we can have a very healthy,
profitable business where we take care of our
employees and our patients and doctors. But if
we want to keep growing, hopefully we will have
the option at that point. Nice. It seems like
the future is bright. I mean, what feedback are
you getting from both doctors and actual people
using the service? Yeah. So on the doctor side,
I mean, at the end of the day, we are in the
business of having happy doctors. We have happy
doctors. The doctors will do an amazing job at
taking care of the patients. And so right now,
most doctors, when you hear about it, it's not
just in Portugal. Doctors are overworked. They
have too many patients. And so with the concierge
model, I guess there's two major innovations.
One is that the doctors, instead of running and
rushing through the day, they can walk through
their day. On busy days, they're still focused
on patient care all the time. But they actually
get a chance to be doctors and spend time with
patients and get to know them and get to know
their life story and their history and have this
relationship. And most doctors went to med school
not to make a lot of money. They went to med
school to take care of people. And so the doctors
absolutely love this model as well because they
get to do what they're really passionate about.
And then also with the doctors, we split the
subscription revenue with the doctors. So the
doctors incentives, so it's not a fee per service.
Most doctors right now get paid based on the
volume of patients they see, where in concierge
medicine, because there's this rev share component,
the doctors are incentivized to keep patients
happy and healthy. So there's this like really
nice blend between the two. And then on the patient
side, I mean, we've been told Pretty much every
single patient we've had has told us it's the
best health care experience They've ever had
in Portugal that they've never had a doctor spend
as much time with them They care about them and
the whole system of being able to just chat and
text with the doctor after the appointments and
make quick appointments it's just a breath of
fresh air that allows people to really Go deep
and have that have those things that kind of
been bugging them for a long time addressed in
an iterative fashion that Listen to trust. Makes
sense because so many times I remember going
to the doctor and then being prescribed something
and then not being able to give feedback on that
prescription because this is it. This is the
final word that you always need to follow the
doctor's instructions, but actually they might
not be right. So you might need to get some feedback
and actually go back to the doctor. Hey, can
we change this? Can we adapt that? But then that's
another point we need to book and then you need
to schedule something else. If you're not doing
your private healthcare, it's an absolute nightmare
to get that that affects us, isn't it? Yeah,
I think like, we like to think about like healthcare
3 .0, right, which is adding in the lifestyle
components, adding in the root cause analysis
components. And it's like, it's not just about
drugs and treatment, it's about understanding
the person as a whole. I mean, you might have
a problem with your knee. and you go to the knee
doctor and they do this particular thing with
your knee, but if the doctor doesn't have the
time to really look into it, maybe it's your
back. Maybe your back's a little bit off. Maybe
you have some stomach issues and the doctors
like take this stomach medication, but really
maybe it's a diet adjustment or maybe it's something
that if you had the time to work through it with
somebody, you could really figure out what that
root cause is. That's where the basis for longevity
and prevention and having a a fulfilling lifestyle,
life is being able to address the issues at the
root cause as opposed to just treating symptoms.
Yeah. If you could fix something, I guess, in
the Portuguese ecosystem, what would you fix?
Question. I feel like from an entrepreneurship
standpoint, a lot of times when I talk to other
entrepreneurs about ideas, I feel like people
very much, it needs to be like all or nothing,
where if the idea isn't taking over the world
in a billion -dollar business, it's not exciting.
Or as well as if someone else is doing it, that
means they can't do it. Where I think in the
United States, there's very much the idea of
the pie gets bigger, the more you build, and
you don't need to build a billion -dollar business.
I mean, if we build a billion -dollar business,
that'd be great, but most businesses that are
successful, that earn money for people and have
happy, healthy people working there, There are
small businesses or their medium -sized businesses
and so I think that's a completely reasonable
goal is to go after businesses that are of whatever
size they get to and then on the Other people
are doing it side. I mean, I think that's how
innovation happens often it's competition. It's
like hey these people are doing it let's let's
just try to do a better version of it and some
experiences I've had with people and I think
that as more entrepreneurship and innovation
happens, that mindset will also shift. You know,
when you're building all these businesses, I'm
sure you come across really dark moments and
hard times. How do you overcome them? And what
advice would actually give to people going through
them right now? Yeah, that's a great question.
So, you know, I advise some other startups in
the consulting business as well. We work with
early stage businesses quite a lot. And I think
people are just surprised when they hit these
existential threats in the startup journey. And
people just, oh my God, it's the end of the world.
We have this thing and if it doesn't get resolved,
it's the end of the business. Why is this happening
to me? This never happens to anyone else. I feel
like anytime you start an organization is innovative,
you're going to hit a couple of existential threats
along the way. And really just kind of to say,
hey, this is normal. This is expected. Let's
figure out a way to move through it and not becoming
panicked or wrecked about it. I think that's
a very reasonable approach. I also think just
like mental health, just having a network of
friends, potentially doing therapy, having ways
to kind of reflect on things is really important.
And it's not talked enough in the entrepreneurship
community. where a lot of entrepreneurs I know,
including myself, when I did my first business,
I just go, go, go all the time. And so when these
dark moments happen and you haven't really built
a infrastructure around you that can support
you, it gets very challenging where if you have
people that are experienced or people that know
you well, you can have these conversations and
relate to them. Get a lot more perspective on
things that are happening because oftentimes
startup challenges seem like you're the only
person that's ever gone through it when in reality
It's like anything in life in reality a lot of
people have experienced it. Maybe they have some
perspective that can help out Do you have like
a group a good support group that has a lot of
entrepreneurs or it's just people that actually
do completely random things? Yeah, it's funny.
I feel like here in Portugal We've developed
a community of friends that are all doing very
exciting things and interesting projects, but
the group didn't form around those projects,
kind of formed more organically around relationships
and being friends. And then as we all got to
know each other better, we're like, oh, wow,
we're all doing really interesting things in
our professional careers. But even if that's
not your case, I feel like people can go foster
this. There's so many entrepreneurship meetups.
people that just like talking about things, even
if they're not entrepreneurs, a lot of people
that work in larger companies like to talk about
this stuff and participate in it. And if you
want to foster this community, I very much do
so. I'm always curious on one thing. What was
the biggest cultural shock you had? Because you
were in Portugal just amongst the pandemic, right?
So it's not really the best time because everything
was shut off or shut down. So how was the biggest
shock you had? I think the most challenging thing
is to slow down the expectations on how products
are going to get done. And a lot of services
and things that you need, expecting it to take
a couple tries. If your AC is broken, it might
not get fixed the first time they visit. And
coming from the US, which is just like, go, go,
go. both professionally and personally. I mean,
it's easy to get very frustrated in that situation,
but I feel like it's also been a healthy and
refreshing shift in my personal development where
I've said, okay, it's just gonna take some time.
It doesn't need to be done right now. And yeah,
it's just part of the culture a lot of times
here, so. Interesting, yeah, because it's always...
I know everyone I talk to and they actually have
the same thing and I have this problem every
time I go back to Portugal, which is I'm on the
go go go mode and then everyone else is very
slow and I just start driving me nuts. Like why
isn't this done straight away? Why are they taking
so long to service at the restaurant something
like that? It just drives me nuts. But then I
get okay, I'm thinking like someone who lives
in the big city. So every time I come back, okay,
slow down a bit because people just chill. I
feel like Half our way between the two is a healthy
approach. I don't want it to take five times
to get my refrigerator fixed, but I also don't
need to be just a crazy person and be like, hey,
this needs to get done within an hour. There's
a blend between those two spots that is a good
place to be in. What was the biggest challenge
you had in Taj Mahal when you were building it?
I think we expected this, but It took longer
than we expected this one part, which was just
recruiting an amazing doctor, our first concierge
doctor, which is I think culturally, Portugal
people tend to be a little bit more risk adverse.
And then on top of that, Larry and doctors being
a bit risk adverse. And so there's the fact that
we're pitching this new model to a doctor that
we want them to join a early stage business.
I don't even want to call it a startup because
it is a service business at the other day. We're
at the same time, we want to find the best people.
I mean, we're building a new business and we're
focused on delivering the best care we can in
this country. And so we needed a doctor that
wanted to join that was technically skilled as
a practitioner, but also a huge part of this
business is building relationships with patients.
So they also need that relationship component,
which Took us a bit of time to find the right
person and our current doctor. Dr. Louisa Batista
is amazing She checks all the boxes and everybody
is obsessed with her. That's either Do you have
how many doctors you have in a platform? I mean
obviously It won't be it doesn't need to be a
crazy number because then they can service quite
a lot of people but roughly Yeah, we just launched
two months ago. So we have one time concierge
doctor And we also have a nurse who's also amazing
together. I mean, we give them the time to serve
their patients and really be there for whatever
they need. Interesting. And how, you know, the
feedback you're getting from patients and stuff.
I know you already told me what they're saying,
but do they share the word with their friends
and they say, hey, actually start doing this
because it actually works really well? Yeah,
yeah. I mean, half of our customers at this point
have been referrals and this is just early on.
So like right now the challenge is just getting
in front of more people because it's a unique
model that people typically don't have experience
with, especially here in Portugal. So there's
a bit of education, but typically after somebody
has their first comprehensive exam, the first
one, like people are just like, oh my God, like
this, this is, I've never had somebody spend
so much time really learning about me in addressing
things that are typically overlooked. I mean,
it's completely different because normally, I
think they just give you, they kind of patch
you up, isn't it? You go to the doctors, they
give you some medicine. Okay, you're good to
go. But actually, maybe the problem is a lot
deeper than that. And then they actually need
to spend some time with you and really analyze
it well. But yeah, it's not the doctor's fault.
It's easy to blame doctors that are spending
15 minutes with you. But you know, they're Income
model is tied to volume of patients. They see
insurance reimburses there's not a system that
that encourages prevention and personalized health
care and Working with people to make sure that
they their root causes are addressed. I Think
what we've seen in the United States because
we've studied the market really extensively which
is that you end up saving money even though we're
a premium service and we charge a monthly fee
that is higher than most people have paid for
other healthcare services. The end result is
it saves you money and time in the long run.
And most importantly, you have a better, you're
healthier and you can enjoy your life and your
time better. Interesting. You know, in the Seoul
ecosystem, what do you think about the city of
Lisbon like overall? Do you think it's buzzing,
not buzzing? What do you think? Ah, Lisbon's
the best. It's just a lot of Well, that's all
right. We always do it in English anyway, so.
It's really unfortunate because I feel like there's
a lot of frustration with the amount of change
that's happening in Lisbon because a lot of people
that are living here, there's things that are
missing to protect people that currently have
their lives here. At the same time, I think you're
seeing the same trend in most major cities around
the world, the rise in remote work has led people
to move to cities where there's either a price
arbitrage or there's just a high quality of life
in the particular city. And so, you know, I don't
think that that is specific to Lisbon, even though
when you're living there, I mean, it feels like
that's the experience. I'm curious on one thing,
you know, a lot of people say they want to move
to the US to do business. Now, you have the experience
of doing business in the US and doing business
also in Europe and Portugal. Do you think that's
relevant? Like, does it actually come a stage
where as a business owner, as an entrepreneur,
you actually should move to another country?
Or quite on the contrary, you can always find
what you need in the country you're at. I think
it comes down to your personal objectives and
the type of business that you want to build.
I mean, there's no doubt that the US has the
best infrastructure today to build early stage
businesses at scale. has so many vendors that
are very US Pacific that can support your journey
of building the business. You have massive investor
community, 350 million people that have high
buying power. It's a huge market, right? But
it's also hyper competitive. A lot of times,
if you want to build a business, at least that
scale. A, it's easier to do it there. But at
the same time, you might, as I said, there's
a lot of competition. Where being in a smaller
country like Portugal or Europe or any other
country, there's a lot of country and cultural
specific, both challenges and opportunities.
This business that we're building objectives
is a higher margin, lower volume. business. So
being in a country of 10 million people, we can
create economic opportunity for us and for people
we work with, thinking through what we can build
here in a way that will work for us. But I think
it also comes down to what lifestyle you want.
I mean, I think if you want to just do the startup
grind and hustle and You really bust your ass
to build something, take over the world, live
in New York or the Bay Area. Great places to
do it, probably as well as London. But if you
want to have more of a chill lifestyle, yeah,
Portugal provides that in many ways. Interesting.
Yeah, because I think a lot of people talk to,
they always want to grow and they want to grow
in the US, but I don't think they realize what
it takes to actually grow the business there.
Because like I said, it's super competitive.
And it's it takes a lot for me, right? It's not
just something you could just chill. Oh, I'm
going to finish at five o 'clock. No, you're
not going to continue working until you get stuff
done. So that's that's a bit of a lifestyle change
for a lot of people. Yeah, definitely. And I
think in the United States, people just identify
so much with their work as part of who they are.
And it just that's the culture. Yeah, it's not
it's not that it's right or wrong. It's just
that is different. Yeah. What about the taxes?
I'm always curious because you did move to a
country that has a higher taxation overall. So
how, how does that feel like? Hmm. I mean, if
you're earning a lot of money in the United States,
the tax bracket is pretty similar to what a higher
income Portuguese taxes are. Okay. Right now,
you know, we're building this business. I'm trying
to figure out as an American, as an American,
I'm taxed both countries regardless. So I'm just
currently working with our tax account to try
to figure out how do we structure things correctly.
Yeah, I mean, I do feel like taxes in Portugal
are complicated and make it difficult to... One
of the issues I run into here is it's not that
the taxes aren't justified or too high, as much
as that it's difficult to understand them and
move through the process. In the US also, but
for a corporation specifically, they're a lot
more simple. and personal taxes are always complicated.
But I don't know, you can't just need taxes.
I'm always curious because when people think,
for example, they want to open a business, there's
a couple of states that always spring to mind,
right? Florida being one of them, then Texas,
and obviously Delaware, because they normally
have lower taxes. And I was curious to understand,
like, when you move to Europe, you always end
up paying a lot more taxes when compared to those
other states, in this case, in the US. So that's
what I'm curious about. Like how big of a shock
was that? When we built this business, it was
expected that we were going to pay for cheese
taxes. So, you know, I think when you think through
the model and you think through the opportunity,
that's part of just figuring out what you're
going through. Yeah, I think both countries'
taxes are pretty high and not suggesting that
they should be lower, but that's a political
discussion that... Yeah, those are different
podcasts, but... Well, it's especially being
an American where you're required to file in
both countries and pay taxes. Both countries
just makes it quite complicated and something
that needs to be very deliberately addressed
early on if you're doing entrepreneurship outside
the United States. And if something goes wrong,
the Marines come in and save you. So it's not
all that bad. All right. Tali, if people want
to reach out to you and find more about Tejamet,
how can they do so? Yeah, sure. I mean, you can
check out our website at tejomed .com. You can
find me on LinkedIn, Tyler Gordon, also Tyler
at tejomed .com. I'm always happy to talk about
entrepreneurship and other startups. I do a bit
of angel investing as well. And just like to
work with people that are doing amazing things
and sharing things. Sounds good. Tyler, thank
you so much for your time. I appreciate it. Yeah,
thanks so much, Ricardo. from grants to investors
to tips and tricks on how to be successful in
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