Welcome to the Innovation Conversation, a podcast
about innovators, both in business and real life.
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.tech. Hi, and welcome to another episode of
the Innovation Conversation. Today, we're joined
by Simon Penson. Simon, welcome. Hello, and thank
you for having me on the show. It's a pleasure.
Simon, would you like to introduce yourself to
the audience? Yeah, of course. Where do I start?
I guess for the context of this conversation,
it's probably worth me talking about, just very
briefly about, you know, kind of business and
career really, which I'm sure we'll go into a
lot more detail, but in very short detail. I'm
a kind of a career B2B kind of entrepreneur,
I guess. Well, I've spent time in corporate,
career entrepreneur in the B2B space. built a
series of websites, content affiliate sites,
sold those, and then built and sold a quite scale
large independent agency, and then helped build
a sort of early stage SaaS VC business as well,
and now do some consulting and increasingly working
with PEs. So there's a bit to unpick there. So
you have the magic formula as an entrepreneur.
You know exactly what works or what doesn't work.
I wish I did. Yeah, I wish I did. I think, yeah,
there's a, there's a simple answer to that. And
it's a, I think it's called pigheadedness and
determination, I think. This is quite interesting
because you've obviously, you created multiple
companies. What are the traits that you always
think you need to have when you're creating a
company that you know for a fact have made you
successful? Yeah, I think about that a lot actually.
And I thought about it a lot, particularly post
exit of the agency business, which I'm sure we'll
talk about a bit. because I had some time on
my hands to reflect and actually work out what
was next and all of those important things. And
I think, because you'd question yourself sometimes,
I think you think, you know, am I just lucky?
Is this just luck or what is it that's actually
doing it? And, you know, I have a lot of flaws,
there's no doubt about that, a lot of things
that I'm not good at. So actually, I think, firstly,
understanding that and, you know, being really
honest with yourself about those things because
that enables you to build. great team and the
right type of people around you. You cannot do
it alone. That's really important. And then I
think it really is determination. The way that
I describe it to others is I think you have to
do the things that most people think you should
have given up a long time ago and just keep doing
them almost to the point of, you know, like some
people will think you're insane for doing it
because I think it's nothing happens overnight.
I think there is, you know, a belief, let's say
that still, you know, things are solved in months
or, you know, single digit years, but actually,
you know, the saying of, you know, you underestimate
what you can do in 10 years, but massively overestimate
the rest is true. So I think it's the ability
to just kind of get your head down and just keep
plowing on kind of irrespective of the noise
around you. What was your hardest moment? Because
I'm sure, you know, all these companies, there
must have been some very dark, dark moments.
And how did you overcome those as well? Yeah,
I think it certainly is a first time founder,
they really hurt because I think you, you know,
the first time you go through those kind of journeys,
everything's new, isn't it? And I think you take
it. you know, you have what you lack in experience,
you're trying to have to make up and kind of
not just, you know, like IQ, but also EQ. So
a lot of kind of emotional intelligence goes
into it as well. And I think a lot of emotions
play a massive part because you're living off
them, quite frankly. And, you know, so the first
time you go through it, you spend a lot of time,
I think, in quite dark places, to your point,
and, you know, everything hurt. And so I've had
lots and lots of those and made so many mistakes,
it's perhaps unfathomable that we actually made
it in the first place. But I think you come out
of those things. At the time, they feel like
the end of the world. But then a week later,
you've made the decision and you've done the
thing or whatever that thing is. And I think
you have that new perspective then on not just
that, but the wider kind of business experience
and life and you become better for it. I try
and learn from those things now and appreciate
that they're not the end of the world. Tell me
a bit more about the businesses you've started
because there's multiple businesses. So which
one was the first one and we're doing right now?
Yeah, so in order, so originally I was a, so
I'll start at the beginning. So originally I
was very lucky in the sense that I was born at
a very good time. I was kind of, you know, Coming
into the workforce in the sort of mid to late
90s when the internet was just becoming a thing
And I think that was you know, so timing is important
with these things. There's no doubt about that
I think working in journalism to which I was
doing initially in print journalism, you know
working for a magazine kind of corporate and
newspaper business and it taught me very quickly
that you know, these beautiful print products
were going like that and yet the You know the
the kind of the the business, the sites I'd started
to build sort of in the sort of late 90s were,
you know, going that way. So like, you know,
print, beautiful print products going that way
in terms of audience, these terrible sites that
I were building were going that way. So it was
really obvious to me quite early that, you know,
this, this thing called the internet was a seismic
kind of shift in the way that people consume
information. And, you know, obviously that's
an obvious thing to say now, but less so then.
And so I started building sites and you know,
making a mess of them, building them again, you
know, back in the days of Dreamweaver and Joomla
and all of these kind of very early CMSs and
they became ultimately a kind of a group of specialist
content kind of affiliate sites as we would know
them now. They gave me the wrong way of sort
of shortening the story to leave the corporate
world behind, which I did years in sort of, you
know, by this point with 2008. And they did pretty
well. I ended up selling some of those sites,
not significant exit in real terms, but I guess
it counts as an exit, right? We sold them to
somebody else. And then that allowed me to kind
of really double down on taking what we learned
from building audience over here and actually
selling that to other businesses. And that started
in 2009. became an agency business, normal kind
of agency story really. You start the corner
of the kitchen table and use you and an idea.
For the first few years, it was really tough
because we were early in market. Even in 2008,
Facebook certainly wasn't commercially relevant,
so it was a very different time. But we believed
in this content -led digital kind of marketing
piece. Between 2009 and 2012, we got to about
a dozen people, really hard work, quite frankly.
So that was like chapter one, because what we're
having to do is educate the market. So we became
like sales and marketing first as an organization,
which at the time, say, meant slower growth,
but actually later on really helped us because
we'd done the bit that most people miss. And
yeah, then we started to accelerate because the
market caught up. We'd obviously developed brands
and a bit of network effect in there, you know,
that kind of stuff. And then in 2015, we were
getting quite a lot of inbound offers for acquisition,
which obviously we didn't want to sell because
we were scaling. But one conversation turned
into a really interesting merger opportunity.
And then we merged with another agency at that
point in May 15 and created a really interesting
kind of group that had a broader service offering,
really strong senior team collectively, all that
kind of stuff. Yeah, then we started to grow
and immediately we put the PR out actually that
we'd merged. The market kind of started and immediately
came to us and said, well, you're perfect size
and perfect shape for acquisition. So we ran
a process and by August 16, it wasn't just the
plan at the time, but it happened. By August
16, we'd been jointly acquired by Vines Public,
one of the Holocaust. We really backed ourselves.
We took an urn out, which I think at the time
most people thought we were mad for taking because
we had offers that were bigger up front. So,
you know, I'm not talking numbers, but it was
a bigger number up front, shorter urn out, and
we took the opposite. We took less up front with
more opportunity on the urn out side and longer
urn out, which everybody thought we were crazy
for doing. But we backed ourselves, I think,
because we'd really enterprise back office. We'd
really invested in senior team. We got a great
senior team. We knew that we had the people in
the process to sort of double treble even down.
And that's what happened through out and out.
We grew really significantly. to, I mean, our
run rate was more or less double digit million
EBITDA by the end of 2020, which is when we exited.
We obviously didn't post that because our compound
annual growth rate was quick. So we posted a
number that was slightly lower than that, but
it was a, you know, we sort of more than tripled
EBITDA, I think, during that period. And yeah,
you know, it was a fantastic, fantastic experience.
Very hard, obviously, but yeah learn a huge amount
and then got fired out the cannon on the other
end and I think that's a story all into itself.
And now you invest in companies and you also
advise them on what's the best way of moving
forward because you actually you did quite a
I guess a big gamble there because you had to
not only sell what you're building, but also
believe in the company to the point where you
could have made more money initially. But then
you actually said, you know what, I actually
believe so much in what I've built, which I don't
think that many people believe in that, that
strongly that I'm going to continue here until,
you know, it proves very successful. And that's
exactly what happened. Yeah. And it felt like
that. It really did feel like that at the time.
I remember it very well. There was some sleepless
nights in there thinking, is this the right thing
to do? And actually, interestingly, I do a bit
of work now with private equity because obviously
they're more interested in agency and SaaS businesses.
Trying to help them sort of buy the right businesses.
And I think now knowing what I know about PE,
I think I would have preferred to have taken
a PE deal because then you still continue to
own a little bit of the business to go. Of course,
with the trade deal, which is the only option
we had because PE weren't really into the market
until 2018, we sold in 2016, that, you know,
that deal would have really helped us because
we still would have had a bit of a, you know,
more or less, you know, 10 million, you know,
a bit of our business, which would have been
great. But, you know, as it was, we, you know,
we walked away. But there's no doubt that we
had a much more successful, you know, earn out
than a lot of people talk about, right? Because,
you know, the reality for most is that you know,
it's a really tough period, but we had a great
team. It's all about the people, isn't it? And,
you know, probably leaning into a, you know,
good time in the market as well. COVID was interesting
in the last year and did not make net positive.
You mentioned something about each thing, which
was the, you know, the sleepless nights. And,
you know, I talk with a lot of entrepreneurs
and investors and everyone talks about their
sleepless nights. So What tips can you give to
people? How do you go through those moments?
Because it's different for everyone. Some say
it's friends and families. I know you have a
dog because we were talking about the dog earlier
on. Maybe just a long walk with a dog. How do
you overcome those challenges? There is no doubt
that it's difficult because at the time it feels
all -encompassing, doesn't it? The challenge
that the entrepreneur has as well is that if
they are building something successfully, there
isn't a lot of time for anything else. And so
it's not like you can just switch on and go,
all right, well, I'll go and play golf or I'll
go and do my other hobby in pursuit because hats
off to those people that can do both of those
things together. But I always struggled to do
it. I was kind of all or nothing really. Yeah,
I think really it's talking about it. I think
it's mentorship and I was, you know, I had no
doubt. I was lucky to have had to had a couple
of mentors really through that journey, personal
business coaches that actually one of which has
become a really good friend now that, you know,
kind of really helps you through that. And whether
it's a, you know, talk a chat over a beer at
the pub on a Friday evening, or whether it's,
you know, a kind of a sit down and, you know,
proper conversation, I think the ability to be
able to share that reality. with somebody with
experience that's appreciated things like that
before and has got through it and has real business
experience. I have no doubt in my mind that if
I hadn't had that, I think some of those hurdles
would have stopped me. So experience, I think,
and mentorship is the answer. And now as an investor,
because you also invest in startups now, what
has that been bringing? What does your experience
bring to the table for this startup? Do you actually
just give up the money or you're actually saying,
you know what, let me advise you the best way
to move forward. Because there's always that
dilemma when you're putting in investors, which
is, do I just want the money or actually want
the business advice that comes with this investor?
Right? Yeah, I think that's a really good point
because my investor journey obviously started
in 2016 when we saw the initial tranche of cash
from the second exit. And, you know, I'd always
been fascinated in how things work. So for me,
SAS then was the kind of the websites of 99,
if that makes sense. So starting investing in
it, I think very quickly I realized that, you
know, that these founders had brilliant ideas.
They often came from a place where they'd had,
you know, fairly unique experience about a particular
customer pain or a market. They, you know, they
often were, you know, obviously developers or
engineers. They built something that was semi
-interesting, but And that's kind of their level
of experience. And I came across these brilliant
ideas that got me really excited to begin with.
But then I think the reality bites once you're
on the other side of the investment. And you
realize that these people are fantastic at doing
some things, but not others. And they don't know
what they don't know. I was there. I've lived
that reality. And so we've quickly really realized
that actually that whole kind of early stage
investment world was being run by finance people
in the main that were brilliant at working out
what a good idea looked like and investing in
it. They were financial investors, but they didn't
necessarily have that lived experience that was
probably, well, I have no doubt in my mind that
it's more important than the money, actually.
Of course, you can't do things without the money,
but equally, if you throw money at a problem,
then often it creates a bigger problem. I would
say that it's the experience. It's also the thing
that I'm most passionate about, I think, you
know, having come out the agency in 2020, I realized
that, you know, that purpose becomes really important
when you've kind of, you know, you've solved
all the kind of financial, you know, initial
financial motivations and challenges and problems
to an exit. You know, you have to look at yourself
really carefully in the mirror and go, what is
it that I really want to do for the rest of my
life? And what do I enjoy doing? And, you know,
thankfully through that investment process, because
I would started that in 2016, so it was overlapping
a bit. I could throw myself into then helping
some of the founders that I had been investing
in during the earn -out period. And in that,
it did two things for me, really. It really validated
the lessons that we learned from building the
business, because you were seeing it reflected,
again, through other people. And it also taught
me that I really loved doing it. And it, quite
frankly, didn't feel like work. It still doesn't
feel like work. And I think that's because you
see the value, right? The value exchange is there
that, you know, like being able to tell somebody,
look, I can't tell you what to do because I'm
a minority investor, but actually let me explain
what happens if you do that. Yeah. You know,
and I've done it this way, this way and this
way, and this is what happened and this is what
I've learned. And that, you know, feels like
the most valuable commodity in the world, I think,
at the time to both sides. And, you know, I just,
you know, that makes me leap out of bed in the
mornings. When you're looking at potential investment
opportunities, what's the one thing that is a
massive red flag for you? Like let's ignore all
the financials because obviously those are very
clear that there will be red flag or not. But
what's the one thing you always look out for?
I've seen a lot of them, right? So, you know,
I was a partner at a really great EIS business
school hatch, which we kind of started in 2018
properly. And so, you know, that business now
has gone on and is doing amazing things, invested
in almost 100 kind of early stage B2B SaaS businesses.
And so we've seen a lot of pitches. I mean, we've
probably got well over a thousand decks a year,
I would say, you know, to kind of initially work
through. And then obviously there's, you know,
various stages of, you know, I see in decision
making through that. So you have to develop a
very methodical approach, I think, to working
out what good looks like really quickly. And
over the years, I think, we've learned that particularly
in SaaS, what usually happens a lot is that you
have a CTO engineer, software person that has
a great idea, but actually what they really need
is somebody alongside them, or ideally a leader
in their own rights that's much more commercial,
because it's the commercialization of the idea.
Obviously as well as the idea, but the idea can
fall very quickly flat if you cannot sell it.
And develop really good go -to -market sales
and marketing, and actually create a bit of product
market fit quickly. So people obviously is the
key part because that's really what you're investing
in. But then it's like, what type of characteristic
are you looking for? And commerciality I think
is probably top of the list. Interesting. It's
funny because you mentioned SaaS and investing
in SaaS, but I was thinking about CRM systems,
for example, a very basic example. But in a nutshell,
none of them are particularly complex. They all
pretty much do the same thing. However, the way
that we know about them is because of their go
to market strategy, right? There's a reason why
we know more about HubSpot than we know about
Zoho, for example, also depends on a region.
But there's a very good reason because of that,
because they have different approach to how to
go to market. HubSpot support a lot of startups
initially, and they still do. So it's a really
good thing because they grow with the startups.
Zoho, on the other hand, probably has a completely
different strategy. So it's things like that
that really do make a difference. What do you
invest in right now? Is this just B2B SaaS businesses
or you're spreading out to other variables? Yeah,
so I mean, that's certainly what Hatch does.
I've started, you know, I'm playing a slightly
different role now. And I think is I think I've
learned over the last few months is that, you
know, if I go back to the kind of the purpose
piece, it's very difficult once you get to 100.
um, investments to, um, to spend lots and lots
of time with those businesses and really help
them. And that's kind of the moment for me. So
I'm sort of in the process of swimming up, you
know, upstream a little bit and spending more
time with private equity because, you know, like,
obviously they put bigger checks into slightly
later stage businesses and you can, you know,
you have fewer deeper relationships and that
really plays into that purpose for me. And so
right now that's kind of what I'm doing. So I've
got, obviously, you know, we've got a number,
you know, almost a hundred investments in Hatch,
um, you know, which which most of them are doing
really, really well, which is fantastic to see.
But I'm now, and obviously I've got some personal
investments as well, so I'll continue to double
down into those businesses. And they are B2B
SaaS. All of those that I've invested in personally,
for instance, sit in that space. And then in
PE though, I think, and this comes down to a
little bit of the mentorship piece that I was
talking about earlier is that you know, that
my mentors have spent a lot of time in PE themselves.
And, you know, I think it's helped me understand
that, you know, sticking to what you're good
at is really good advice, what you know best.
And so I'm increasingly spending more and more
time investigating, you know, slightly later
stage agency businesses, you know, on a fairly
broad basis and sort of tech enabled service
businesses. But also obviously, you know, the
kind of slightly late stage kind of opportunity
as well. So, you know, I'm in that process at
the moment as I think, you know, kind of moving
and spending my time much more upstream in that
kind of, you know, let's say that PE space. There's
a lot of PE. There's always talks between founders
about how hard it is to raise investment now.
Now, you've been in this ecosystem for quite
some time now. Do you think it's much harder?
to raise investment now that it was a couple
of years ago, or on the contrary, it's always
been hard. It's just a matter of, you know, learning
the game. It is hard. Yeah, I would say actually,
it's probably easier because the markets outside
of the COVID bubble was a weird time because,
you know, for some, it was really easy to raise
money. For others, it was impossible. So I think
you kind of have to park that because it was
a unique moment in time. But I think, you know,
if you look more macroeconomically, from the
investor side, first and foremost, because obviously
these funds can only invest if they have the
money to be able to invest. And certainly in
the early stage stuff around SEIS and EIS in
the UK, there was a lot of nervousness and actually
investment in those schemes really dropped for
a while, but it is now coming back. And so there
is now more money to invest. Obviously on the
PE side, sitting on record amounts of unspent
capital. Now everybody's raising bigger and bigger
funds and so their problem is actually getting
it away. But of course, there is a limit on the
number of sort of slightly later stage quality
businesses they can invest in. So their problem
is sorting the wheat from the chaff and finding
enough really good quality businesses to invest
in. On the earlier stage, I think it has been
a capital challenge. But now I think the capital
challenge is solving itself, but there are less,
again, better, really good quality businesses
to, you know, to kind of invest in. There's a
lot of me -too businesses. So there's a lot of
people building, for instance, at the moment
in sales tech, for instance, you know, as one
example. And so, you know, you've got to sort
through a lot of those ideas to really find and
back the right team with, you know, the right
commercial ability, you know, and, you know,
all of that kind of good stuff. So, yeah, I would
say it is... It's as hard or as easy as the quality
of what you're creating. By that I mean idea,
business plan, go -to -market, team. Interesting.
What do you think about this AI thing? Because
obviously it's not going to go anywhere. I talked
with a lot of founders and they all say, if we
don't have AI, no one's going to invest in us.
But at the same time... I also talk with a lot
of investors to say, actually, yes, AI is important.
But if you just put in AI for the sake of putting
AI in your company's name, then we still can
reach through the lines and say, this is not
relevant for AI. So what do you think about the
whole thing? Yeah. I mean, I wish I knew. I don't
wish that any of us knew because obviously it's
the first time in human history that we've got
something that has kind of an improvement. curve
that truly is exponential, right? I think that's
the difference is that, you know, in six months
time, what is it going to look like? So the pace
of change is, you know, even greater than it's
ever been, you know? And I equally, I mean, this
is an entrepreneur's curse as well, I think,
is that, you know, it's very easy, and I've fallen
for all of this myself, to get very, really excited
about new technology, and then think it's going
to change everything immediately. And, you know,
I think we're already starting to appreciate
the fact that AI isn't doing that, but it is
accelerating change faster than anything before
it. And obviously there's a regulation kind of
angle to this as well. But, you know, I think
my view is that, you know, AI has a part to play
in the middle. So I think, you know, good, good
use of AI and AI strategy. And obviously, you
know, through my consulting work, spend a lot
of time talking to people about this is that,
you know, you need to work out how it plays a
part, you know, like human at the beginning.
strategy, you know, all that kind of good stuff.
How can you help it and use it to become more
efficient and effective and do heavy lifting
in the middle at the moment, then human at the
end to do the kind of the QC and the key touches.
So it absolutely has a part to play. And I think,
you know, any business of any kind, particularly
in B2B where say I spend my time, it was foolish
not to have a strategy of, you know, kind of
watch, listen, you know, and think. But equally,
I wouldn't say some people jumping into it and
thinking it's going to take over the world. I
think that may happen in time, but we're not
there yet. It's a watching brief with some action,
I think is probably the way that I'm advising
people on it at the moment. There's definitely
ways that you can create operational efficiency
in all of those things already. For instance,
the consulting business that you know, I've founded
and called Scaled is, you know, we've been building
a really interesting tool to help with, you know,
kind of outbound and outreach, for instance.
And it's been really good for helping us personalize
that at scale and, you know, understand and test
and create matrices around testing, messaging
and targeting and all of those kinds of things.
As I said, it can definitely add value, but I
don't think yet it should be your main focus,
if that makes sense. It makes a lot of sense.
It's always funny because I always see founders
obsessed with the whole AI thing. I keep on thinking,
if it's not relevant to put AI in your name,
don't put AI in your name because why would you,
right? It's just going to hurt you in the long
run. And it's a bit like saying you have, I don't
know, it's a bit like saying you own a plane
when you really don't own a plane, you just fly
with Ryan there all the time. So why would you
want to say that? You definitely see that in
the startup space a lot is that there are a lot
of people that, you know, most pictures you see
now are AI something. And when you look into
it, there's probably a bit of machine learning
in there, but it's not true AI yet. It's just
an overcomplicated spreadsheet, I think. We actually
mentioned something quite interesting, which
is a common myth here in the industry and everyone
struggles with this, which is how long should
a pitch deck actually be? because Y Combinator
says 11 slides and that's more than enough, then
I've seen some amazing pitch decks which are
like 30 slides long, but it just flows very easily.
So you probably take as long to read them as
you would take 11 slides. So you told me you
just read a thousand pitch decks last year. So
which one is your favorite? What actually works
best? Yeah, I think I am definitely fun. And
obviously in the agency world, you learn this
very, very, very quickly as well. I mean, how
to put together. a really effective story about
what it is that you're trying to sell, because
that's really what a pitch deck is, isn't it?
It's a story, and I think some people forget
that, and they're just like, right, well, we
need to make sure we mention this, this, and
this, and all of a sudden you are at 30, 40 slides.
And so I think, you know, you can start with
a process like that, get everything in that you
want and feel like you need to mention, but then
think about the narrative through that. And for
me, it's really about you know, starting off
with a, you know, I think it's always really
interesting to start off with something that
we always used to call a lean -in slide, so a
lean -in moment. It's like, we want to get your
attention immediately and we want to explain
the value that this brings, you know, in monetary
terms or in numerical terms. So if you can say,
for instance, that, you know, doing this for
a year could on average save the average business.
$10 million or try to put a number on it that
makes people sit up and take notice, or we can
make 50 % more efficient, so X, Y, and Z. I think
that really starts to help people value the pain,
if that makes sense. Starting with that and then
obviously working through problem solution. you
know, is really important, that makes sense.
So, you know, this is the problem we've seen.
This is how we've seen it as well, because some
context on, you know, what's the unique insight
or the unique kind of journey that you've been
on to understand this and notice this gap in
markets, this inefficiency in the market. So
bring that to life a little bit. Explain the
problem and then explain how you're going to
solve it. Obviously, then as well, you need to
make sure that you talk of you know, talk about
team and, you know, as I said, ideally, you find
that balance between, you know, technical and
commerciality and a good understanding of go
-to -market sales and marketing is, I think,
music to early stage investors' ears. Well, actually,
you know, every investor's ears, quite frankly.
And, you know, then ultimately a really good
understanding as well of what you're raising
and why and where it gets you to and what it
buys you, because I think not enough people bring
that to life enough is that You know, and they
don't, you know, they'll produce financial projections,
which quite frankly, and understandably are often,
you know, just, you know, test the air because
it hasn't been built yet. Or, you know, you've
had three, you've got three customers. So I think,
you know, every investor at early stage, you
know, understands that financial projections
are what they are. You know, they're best guess,
aren't they? But what you want to get an understanding
of is that you've spent some proper time really
costing out. what it's going to cost and what
you're going to invest in and building a picture
of where you're going to be by when. From an
investor perspective, what you've got to realize
is that what we're thinking about whatever stage
is that we're not buying into what you've built
so far. We're buying into getting to the next
stage. It's the next story, isn't it? What we
also want to be really sure of is that you can
get there because that's either liquidity and
exit event or its reinvestment event. So the
challenge with a lot of businesses is that they're
only thinking about the next three steps ahead
and you need to put yourself in the mind of the
investor and tell that story. I think a lot of
people miss that. Yeah, it makes sense because
I think some people, especially if you're raising
pre -seed, they always think, oh, it's just pre
-seed and that's it. But actually you're building
a business and the investor wants to see it grow
all the way to, you know, maybe IPO or maybe
a successful exit. So yeah, you need to build
a business for that. Yeah. Not just that little
moment. You know, that sort of, you know, early
stage PE, you know, they might be buying a business
that's doing two, three million EBITDA, you know,
and they want to get it to 10. So you've got
to tell that story. And you've got to convince
them that that's going to happen. You've got
a decent idea of how to do it, not just the fact
that you've well done for doing building something
that's doing a couple million quid of EBITDA,
right? You know, it's what comes next. It's the
key bit. It's always about the vision. Now, I
have this very interesting question to ask you,
which is, you know how startup founders can have
a little bit of an overinflated ego. Is that
a red flag for you as an investor or not? No,
I think it depends on what shape it comes in,
really. For me, the key is the ability to understand,
to know and have the thoughtful awareness that
you don't know everything and you are willing
to listen and take on advice from people with
more experience. I think that's really important
because I go back to my own experience that we
would never have got as far as we did without
me having that ability because I didn't know
what I didn't know. And yes, I was, you know,
the young punchy entrepreneur building that,
even the agency business. I thought I knew it
all, but really didn't. Sometimes you need to
have the ability to be able to externalize that
view of yourself, look back and understand the
other person's perspective and appreciate that
they have been there and that, as I said, is
probably the most valuable commodity in business,
actually. I agree with you full heartedly. To
be able to have that awareness and self -analysis
is one of the strongest tools you can have in
our arsenal. Because you can just say, you know
what, have I done the right thing here? Is this
actually the right way forward? What about this
advice I'm getting? Is this the right advice?
If yes, then I need to change. I used to call
it coachability. it's actually something quite
important to have, isn't it? Yeah, that's the
nice way of putting it, actually, is its coachability,
isn't it? That is key. Because you're not going
to manage an entrepreneur, are you? But you need
to be able to coach them, I think. Simon, if
people want to reach out to you and you're going
to be flooded with multiple startups asking for
investment now, how can they do so? A couple
of ways, I guess. LinkedIn, I'm pretty more active
than I used to be now. I'm trying to share a
bit of insight there. So obviously, forward slash
Simon Penson, you can find me there. And also
email. So really welcome to email me at Simon
.Penson at scaled. So S -C -A -L -E -D .co .uk,
which is the consulting business. So yeah, really
happy to chat. And as I said, it doesn't feel
like work to me. So if people do want to reach
out. You know, I always welcome it. I spent my
days now talking to, um, you know, either sort
of clients who are entrepreneurs, investments
who are entrepreneurs or, you know, people that
just want a bit of advice. So it'd be great.
Simon, thank you so much for your time. I really
appreciate it. Thank you, Ricardo. I really enjoyed
it. Thank you. All right. This podcast is sponsored
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