WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.859 Welcome to the Innovation Conversation, a podcast 00:00:02.859 --> 00:00:05.360 about innovators, both in business and real life. 00:00:05.860 --> 00:00:08.419 Hosted by myself, Ricardo Rescual and Harry McCona. 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:11.660 This podcast is sponsored by openexperts .com. 00:00:11.919 --> 00:00:14.140 OpenExperts is a place to go if you're looking 00:00:14.140 --> 00:00:16.339 to talk with top experts from around the world. 00:00:16.539 --> 00:00:20.879 That is open -experts .com. This podcast is also 00:00:20.879 --> 00:00:24.539 sponsored by startupnetworks .co .uk. Startup 00:00:24.539 --> 00:00:26.820 Networks, it's an online forum where you can 00:00:26.820 --> 00:00:28.739 find all the resources you need to learn your 00:00:28.739 --> 00:00:31.460 startup. from grants to investors to tips and 00:00:31.460 --> 00:00:33.259 tricks on how to be successful when you start. 00:00:33.520 --> 00:00:36.740 This podcast is also sponsored by ODEV Tech. 00:00:37.460 --> 00:00:39.719 ODEV Tech is your premier software development 00:00:39.719 --> 00:00:43.159 partner. Make sure you check them out at odev 00:00:43.159 --> 00:00:47.859 .tech. Hi, and welcome to another episode of 00:00:47.859 --> 00:00:49.700 the Innovation Conversation. Today we are joined 00:00:49.700 --> 00:00:53.259 by Jane Fisher. Jane, welcome. Thanks. Pleasure 00:00:53.259 --> 00:00:56.429 to be here. Jane, you have a very interesting 00:00:56.429 --> 00:00:59.229 life story, a very interesting business going 00:00:59.229 --> 00:01:00.570 on. So would you like to tell our audience a 00:01:00.570 --> 00:01:03.210 little bit more about it, please? Sure. Well, 00:01:03.310 --> 00:01:06.829 I'm a first time founder. So it's quite a rocky 00:01:06.829 --> 00:01:09.790 road, but we're learning and getting there. We're 00:01:09.790 --> 00:01:12.250 working on an AI assistant for immigrants, which 00:01:12.250 --> 00:01:14.230 is an app that guides you through settling into 00:01:14.230 --> 00:01:16.840 a new life in your country. Hopefully saving 00:01:16.840 --> 00:01:20.760 you hours and days of through the search through 00:01:20.760 --> 00:01:22.840 lots of online communities, asking complete strangers 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:24.599 to advise and hoping that you're not going to 00:01:24.599 --> 00:01:27.540 get scammed, saving you from lots of complaints 00:01:27.540 --> 00:01:30.159 and often unneeded expenses and just general 00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:34.760 stress of relocating to your place. And how do 00:01:34.760 --> 00:01:39.239 you get started with this idea? Well, I'm an 00:01:39.239 --> 00:01:41.599 immigrant born and bred, so I was born to a family 00:01:41.599 --> 00:01:44.159 of immigrants in Japan, and over the course of 00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:46.859 my own life, I immigrated a few times. So I have 00:01:46.859 --> 00:01:49.680 quite a lot of experience. And in one of my immigration 00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:53.540 journey, I had a coordinator as me through the 00:01:53.540 --> 00:01:56.120 process, tell me where to go, what to do, what 00:01:56.120 --> 00:01:59.579 to bring. I could speak to my native language 00:01:59.579 --> 00:02:01.739 if I needed to solve a problem. So that was a 00:02:01.739 --> 00:02:05.379 game changer. And in my other immigration experience, 00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:08.159 actually, to UK. Even though I've lived here 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:10.680 before and I studied here before, I just did 00:02:10.680 --> 00:02:13.300 not realise how difficult it is to change countries 00:02:13.300 --> 00:02:16.439 where an adult with some sort of a settled life 00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:20.180 where you come from and navigating it by yourself 00:02:20.180 --> 00:02:23.419 is just extremely difficult because there is 00:02:23.419 --> 00:02:26.620 no walkthrough, there is no checklist of the 00:02:26.620 --> 00:02:30.639 things you need to do. And even if you do Google 00:02:30.639 --> 00:02:33.199 any of them, mostly they're not particularly 00:02:33.199 --> 00:02:37.319 that elaborate or they're quite generic. So unless 00:02:37.319 --> 00:02:40.120 you are very well connected to the local immigrant 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:42.319 communities, and even that, again, doesn't save 00:02:42.319 --> 00:02:44.860 you much time because there is too much information 00:02:44.860 --> 00:02:47.580 to look for in process and a lot of that is subjective. 00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:51.840 It's just quite a pain. And it takes month and 00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:54.840 month to get your life back on just normal track. 00:02:54.979 --> 00:02:57.280 I'm not even talking about improving it. When 00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:01.259 I was ready to quit my job at the startup that 00:03:01.259 --> 00:03:04.300 I was working for before, and I realized that 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:06.759 actually the only way forward for me is the person 00:03:06.759 --> 00:03:10.340 who wants to make a difference in the world and 00:03:10.340 --> 00:03:12.919 actually be sure that I'm moving towards a direction 00:03:12.919 --> 00:03:14.879 towards the impact that I want to make was to 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:17.520 try to make something of my own, to build something 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:21.379 of my own. And my sweet spot has always been 00:03:21.379 --> 00:03:23.659 healthcare and public health and health tech, 00:03:24.379 --> 00:03:28.659 but my career path just does not yet make me 00:03:28.659 --> 00:03:31.180 an expert that can build something in that field. 00:03:31.550 --> 00:03:33.990 So I was thinking, okay, where can I leverage 00:03:33.990 --> 00:03:37.050 the skills and expertise I already have, while 00:03:37.050 --> 00:03:41.110 also making a startup attack business that would 00:03:41.110 --> 00:03:43.069 make the world a better place and help people. 00:03:43.590 --> 00:03:45.949 So that's how I kind of landed at this idea, 00:03:45.969 --> 00:03:48.629 which would be simply digitizing one of my previous 00:03:48.629 --> 00:03:50.969 immigration experiences with the power of AI, 00:03:50.990 --> 00:03:54.030 which has now got much easier than ever before. 00:03:55.110 --> 00:03:57.090 Nice. And how are you finding the journey? Because 00:03:57.090 --> 00:03:59.710 you're a first -time founder, so how is it? Will 00:03:59.710 --> 00:04:04.699 it be wild? A lot of people ask me what it feels 00:04:04.699 --> 00:04:08.120 like to build something in this current climate 00:04:08.120 --> 00:04:11.659 when raising this one is difficult and so on. 00:04:12.060 --> 00:04:17.019 Honestly, all I have to say is I'm my own biggest 00:04:17.019 --> 00:04:20.500 obstacle in all of these things. Had it not been 00:04:20.500 --> 00:04:23.120 for my own insecurity, my imposter syndrome, 00:04:23.220 --> 00:04:25.720 my lack of confidence, I think we would have 00:04:25.720 --> 00:04:29.259 been much further along. I can't blame the current 00:04:29.259 --> 00:04:32.110 economic climate for making it hard for us to 00:04:32.110 --> 00:04:33.930 raise because I haven't properly started our 00:04:33.930 --> 00:04:35.910 fundraising because all the talks we've had so 00:04:35.910 --> 00:04:38.810 far have been through solely through warm intros 00:04:38.810 --> 00:04:42.209 and they're all pretty reassuring. So it's just 00:04:42.209 --> 00:04:46.089 me being shy and not confident enough to ask 00:04:46.089 --> 00:04:49.310 for money. That's really been the obstacle. So 00:04:49.310 --> 00:04:52.189 that's why we ended up just bootstrapping so 00:04:52.189 --> 00:04:54.829 far and decided to focus on pushing the attraction 00:04:54.829 --> 00:04:58.069 a bit more so that basically not just to be more 00:04:58.220 --> 00:05:00.699 appealing to investors, but for me to feel more 00:05:00.699 --> 00:05:03.500 secure to ask for that money, I guess that's 00:05:03.500 --> 00:05:06.899 where we're at the moment. So it's been, the 00:05:06.899 --> 00:05:09.579 experience has been wildly different from working 00:05:09.579 --> 00:05:12.560 for a startup that had investment, which was 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:16.459 my previous experience. Honestly, I cringe so 00:05:16.459 --> 00:05:19.379 much at some of the things that we did at that 00:05:19.379 --> 00:05:20.720 previous startup where I wasn't a co -founder, 00:05:20.759 --> 00:05:22.740 I was just an employee. Just how many things 00:05:22.740 --> 00:05:26.699 you realize were so deeply wrong when you're 00:05:26.699 --> 00:05:30.389 bootstrapping. But it was someone else's money, 00:05:30.470 --> 00:05:33.850 right? So Yeah, but the thing is when I think 00:05:33.850 --> 00:05:36.110 of all the money we burn through and how we burn 00:05:36.110 --> 00:05:38.790 it how many things should have been done You 00:05:38.790 --> 00:05:42.709 know completely different way That's what and 00:05:42.709 --> 00:05:46.829 and especially when I think of my own Attempts 00:05:46.829 --> 00:05:49.110 to be useful in the startup and to and to fix 00:05:49.110 --> 00:05:53.029 things most of that wasn't my job at all and 00:05:53.029 --> 00:05:55.250 And thank God I was trying still trying to do 00:05:55.250 --> 00:05:57.290 that even in the wrong way because that's what 00:05:57.480 --> 00:05:59.579 brought me to where I am now. That's what equipped 00:05:59.579 --> 00:06:01.139 me with knowledge how things are not supposed 00:06:01.139 --> 00:06:03.100 to be done. And that's what made me the right 00:06:03.100 --> 00:06:05.899 hand to the founder in some way. And that's where 00:06:05.899 --> 00:06:08.819 that that's what, well, again, brought me to 00:06:08.819 --> 00:06:11.399 the point where I am now being of a completely 00:06:11.399 --> 00:06:13.920 different non tech background. My background 00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:16.540 is communications and journalism. Never in my 00:06:16.540 --> 00:06:18.319 wildest dreams. I imagine myself building a tech 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:22.379 startup. Yeah, anyway, being able to start founder 00:06:22.379 --> 00:06:25.300 without the money, without investment. It's a 00:06:25.300 --> 00:06:29.139 very enriching experience. And even if I do end 00:06:29.139 --> 00:06:31.800 up not building what I want to build or not making 00:06:31.800 --> 00:06:35.740 it the business I want to make. If I am ever 00:06:35.740 --> 00:06:37.959 forced to come back into full -time employment, 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:41.540 I'd say I'm on a very different level of expertise 00:06:41.540 --> 00:06:45.720 in business than I was before I started. How 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:47.639 are you finding like learning all these new skills 00:06:47.639 --> 00:06:50.220 on the job literally, right? Because you need 00:06:50.220 --> 00:06:52.579 to make a lot of decisions on where to take the 00:06:52.579 --> 00:06:56.569 company. which tech to build. So how are you 00:06:56.569 --> 00:07:00.129 finding all that? I guess you just learn by doing, 00:07:00.129 --> 00:07:03.990 right? So in our case, it's both a blessing and 00:07:03.990 --> 00:07:05.790 a curse that we don't have the money to make 00:07:05.790 --> 00:07:10.470 expensive mistakes. So it's it's easy in the 00:07:10.470 --> 00:07:13.310 sense that we're not taking any loans or anything. 00:07:14.149 --> 00:07:17.829 So we're playing it safe. And if it doesn't work, 00:07:17.870 --> 00:07:19.389 well, it just doesn't work. That means we're 00:07:19.389 --> 00:07:21.990 just doing things slower. And if it does work, 00:07:22.230 --> 00:07:25.350 then Now it does work and we just continue exploring 00:07:25.350 --> 00:07:28.209 and learning other things. Of course, it's very 00:07:28.209 --> 00:07:32.569 confusing because there is a lot of content and 00:07:32.569 --> 00:07:35.189 information out there to consume. The more you 00:07:35.189 --> 00:07:38.889 do this, the more you realize there is no playbook 00:07:38.889 --> 00:07:42.689 that would be teaching you if a certain way of 00:07:42.689 --> 00:07:45.889 building a startup is right or wrong. Because 00:07:45.889 --> 00:07:48.129 yes, there are some best practices and yes, there 00:07:48.129 --> 00:07:50.170 are some worst practices, but at the end of the 00:07:50.170 --> 00:07:53.160 day, it's a lot about luck. It's a lot about 00:07:53.160 --> 00:07:56.519 just connecting certain dots. And sometimes you 00:07:56.519 --> 00:07:59.459 may end up building a successful business and 00:07:59.459 --> 00:08:01.899 raising millions while having a completely wrong 00:08:01.899 --> 00:08:06.060 business model and wrong way of thinking. Or 00:08:06.060 --> 00:08:08.160 you can do everything right and still go bust 00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:11.180 because well, that's the way things are. Or that's 00:08:11.180 --> 00:08:13.519 the way the economy freaked out at the time when 00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:16.800 you're building a business. So it is quite a 00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:22.089 quite a journey and quite an experiment. So I'm 00:08:22.089 --> 00:08:24.810 just trying to be philosophical and chill about 00:08:24.810 --> 00:08:28.050 this because I'm not losing anything at least. 00:08:28.990 --> 00:08:31.310 Yeah, trying out different things and what do 00:08:31.310 --> 00:08:33.870 you do? I always like to ask this question. What 00:08:33.870 --> 00:08:35.750 do you do when times get tough? You know those 00:08:35.750 --> 00:08:39.370 really bad days like what puts you back in your 00:08:39.370 --> 00:08:43.850 state of balance? So, as we haven't earned anything 00:08:43.850 --> 00:08:46.389 so far, so it's not that I had a million dollar 00:08:46.389 --> 00:08:49.690 loss so far. Sometimes when things go bad, honestly, 00:08:50.029 --> 00:08:52.590 the worst things that have been happening over 00:08:52.590 --> 00:08:55.429 the last year is just me with my depression phases 00:08:55.429 --> 00:08:59.450 because this couple, yes, they really exhausted 00:08:59.450 --> 00:09:02.750 me a lot. This integration with some family stuff 00:09:02.750 --> 00:09:05.370 happening and so on. So sometimes I just find 00:09:05.370 --> 00:09:08.529 myself in this low phase. Literally last week 00:09:08.529 --> 00:09:11.559 I experienced or depression phase for the first 00:09:11.559 --> 00:09:16.059 time in many moments. And there isn't much that 00:09:16.059 --> 00:09:18.340 I can do about this because it's more of a malfunction 00:09:18.340 --> 00:09:20.360 of my brain. I just know that I'm thrown into 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:22.679 melancholic and depression phases. And the most 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:25.179 annoying part about this is you start feeling 00:09:25.179 --> 00:09:29.879 very apathetic towards work. My co -founder literally 00:09:29.879 --> 00:09:32.600 has a manual of what to do with me when that 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:36.639 happens. Because I know that I still can work. 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:41.860 My brain only allows me to tackle tasks which 00:09:41.860 --> 00:09:46.139 describe short action points. So if you tell 00:09:46.139 --> 00:09:49.940 me you dig a hole from here to there, and you 00:09:49.940 --> 00:09:52.559 have to finish by mid -day, that's what I can 00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:56.279 do. It's just an analogy, right? So it's a simple 00:09:56.279 --> 00:09:59.600 task with very specific criteria and timeframes, 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:02.899 and it's short. So I just make sure while I'm 00:10:02.899 --> 00:10:05.220 still okay -ish, but I know that I'm falling, 00:10:05.740 --> 00:10:07.850 descending into the depression. phase, I try 00:10:07.850 --> 00:10:09.929 to break down my tasks that I have to do for 00:10:09.929 --> 00:10:13.149 the startup. And I just make sure that my co 00:10:13.149 --> 00:10:15.330 -founder is aware that I am getting to my low 00:10:15.330 --> 00:10:18.269 phase, so she can remind me to do this task and 00:10:18.269 --> 00:10:21.230 then that's how we get the job done. Those phases 00:10:21.230 --> 00:10:23.549 are not too long, they're just like a week long, 00:10:24.029 --> 00:10:28.389 sometimes more, but well, we're powering through. 00:10:29.769 --> 00:10:31.610 I was just wondering in how, you know, you and 00:10:31.610 --> 00:10:34.549 your co -founder, how did you, ladies, I'm assuming 00:10:34.549 --> 00:10:39.200 it's a lady as well, how did you meet? So I wasn't 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:41.620 blessed to find a co -founder while studying 00:10:41.620 --> 00:10:44.279 or working with someone. It's never been the 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:48.879 case. So it took some time to find the person 00:10:48.879 --> 00:10:52.220 to work with. The first person I tried to work 00:10:52.220 --> 00:11:02.860 with was an to attend it mostly for the fact 00:11:02.860 --> 00:11:04.940 that you could find a GoFundMe and fundraise 00:11:04.940 --> 00:11:07.600 there. Well, that didn't happen. I did work with 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:10.519 one person for about four weeks. It was quite 00:11:10.519 --> 00:11:13.559 nice, but eventually we split up because we were 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:17.480 doing non -venture back of all by endless framework 00:11:17.480 --> 00:11:20.740 and he wanted to try something new. And so I 00:11:20.740 --> 00:11:23.500 let him go. So it was an amicable split up and 00:11:23.500 --> 00:11:26.059 we didn't have anything to lose. And we'd only 00:11:26.059 --> 00:11:29.029 started mostly to see customer research. we're 00:11:29.029 --> 00:11:30.690 still using the results of the research. That 00:11:30.690 --> 00:11:32.590 was nice, but we haven't done much on top of 00:11:32.590 --> 00:11:36.269 that. And then after that, well, I took a break 00:11:36.269 --> 00:11:38.350 in the co -founder search because at Antler, 00:11:38.470 --> 00:11:41.450 I couldn't meet anyone else that would be sharing 00:11:41.450 --> 00:11:44.429 my vision and my passion for input while also 00:11:44.429 --> 00:11:46.730 having a complementary skill set. Those two things 00:11:46.730 --> 00:11:50.830 are quite important. Then I tried working with 00:11:50.830 --> 00:11:53.769 another person I met at the startup event. She 00:11:53.769 --> 00:11:56.250 had a complementary skill set, but I just had 00:11:56.250 --> 00:11:59.549 this constant gut feeling that something was 00:11:59.549 --> 00:12:02.889 wrong, that I'm just for whatever reason, I should 00:12:02.889 --> 00:12:06.049 not be built in with that person. And when at 00:12:06.049 --> 00:12:08.429 some point, I realized that I can't lie to myself 00:12:08.429 --> 00:12:11.350 anymore. So I told her, Hey, I think I'm going 00:12:11.350 --> 00:12:13.950 to just put this thing on the course and just 00:12:13.950 --> 00:12:16.529 figure out if this vision that we're working 00:12:16.529 --> 00:12:19.750 towards is still something I want to do. So let's 00:12:19.750 --> 00:12:22.470 just take a break. And then next thing she messaged 00:12:22.470 --> 00:12:25.690 me was, yeah, I also thought that it's all a 00:12:25.690 --> 00:12:28.759 bit farfetched. I'm like, well, that's not what 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:32.360 I said, but okay. So it's good that my gut feeling 00:12:32.360 --> 00:12:35.700 didn't let me make a mistake or work as a person 00:12:35.700 --> 00:12:38.220 that didn't believe in the idea of the project. 00:12:38.679 --> 00:12:41.980 The next one also found me through an accelerator 00:12:41.980 --> 00:12:48.039 network guide, but wasn't particularly big on 00:12:48.039 --> 00:12:51.059 initiating things. So it was mostly the kind 00:12:51.059 --> 00:12:53.100 of person we would really use at later stages, 00:12:53.419 --> 00:12:57.429 but at the early stages. I'm not great at delegating. 00:12:57.610 --> 00:13:00.110 I really need the person near me to step up and 00:13:00.110 --> 00:13:02.950 offer what they can do. And that just, again, 00:13:03.029 --> 00:13:04.529 wasn't quite the case. So at some point he fell 00:13:04.529 --> 00:13:08.710 out of love with the idea. And I guess I wasn't 00:13:08.710 --> 00:13:12.149 great at getting him engaged early on. But by 00:13:12.149 --> 00:13:14.269 that time, I always met Alex, my current co -founder. 00:13:14.509 --> 00:13:16.669 Again, we met just to start the event with an 00:13:16.669 --> 00:13:20.190 open mic. It was Rare Founders event. And I was 00:13:20.190 --> 00:13:22.169 hard to miss at that event because it was Halloween 00:13:22.169 --> 00:13:25.039 themed and it was last minute Halloween. things. 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:27.399 So very few people came dressed up and I and 00:13:27.399 --> 00:13:29.379 I just happened to have a costume on my shelf, 00:13:29.460 --> 00:13:34.500 a costume of Alice in Wonderland. Yes, it's just 00:13:34.500 --> 00:13:37.139 it's a proper Alice in Wonderland costume. And 00:13:37.139 --> 00:13:40.559 I pitched it into the open mic that evening. 00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:42.259 So for the next few months, whenever I started 00:13:42.259 --> 00:13:45.500 describing our startup to anyone, if that person 00:13:45.500 --> 00:13:48.059 was at that event, they'd be like, Oh, the founder 00:13:48.059 --> 00:13:52.159 of a fish in Alice in Wonderland attire. So that's 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:54.399 a funny reputation to acquire. I had a costume 00:13:54.399 --> 00:13:56.200 competition at that event, so I got a meeting 00:13:56.200 --> 00:13:58.019 with an investor in every year of our financial 00:13:58.019 --> 00:14:01.480 model. So that was out for nothing. Alex saw 00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:04.179 me, came up to speak to me, and then we discovered 00:14:04.179 --> 00:14:08.200 synergy in our skill sets and passions. And then 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:10.799 we met a few more times, decided to do a task 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:13.120 period of working together. And over that time, 00:14:13.179 --> 00:14:16.299 I saw her as a person who shows initiative, who 00:14:16.299 --> 00:14:18.659 shows responsibility, who's not afraid to challenge 00:14:18.659 --> 00:14:21.980 me when she thinks I'm not making sense. but 00:14:21.980 --> 00:14:24.480 in a very ethical and respectful way. And then 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:28.080 finally, when I was very ill with very violent 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:32.320 flu in January, and she offered to come and go 00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:36.399 with Aunt E with me in the dead of night, despite 00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:38.580 the fact that I was contagious and she lives 00:14:38.580 --> 00:14:42.360 in the other end of London. I didn't accept her 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:47.500 generous offer. I figured that really makes our 00:14:47.500 --> 00:14:50.820 relationship very much alike. And that was, that's 00:14:50.820 --> 00:14:52.399 what is important for me and someone I'm building 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:55.919 a business with chemistry and the similar ethical 00:14:55.919 --> 00:14:59.519 and relationship values. Because I mean, with 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:01.299 skillset, obviously, it's important to have complementary 00:15:01.299 --> 00:15:03.019 skill sets. But at the end of the day, building 00:15:03.019 --> 00:15:05.740 a business is not just about skill sets. It's 00:15:05.740 --> 00:15:09.399 also about having that person who's back you 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:12.519 always have make sense. So yeah, that was, I 00:15:12.519 --> 00:15:15.799 guess, the final straw that convinced me that 00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:20.759 it's time to sign the co -op. Interesting. And 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:24.159 what are your plans for the future? Well, first 00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:29.100 we try to fundraise for the idea and think about 00:15:29.100 --> 00:15:32.639 non -technical ways to join MVP with like Slack 00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:35.340 or something. But then I realized that again, 00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:38.480 biggest obstacle so far is for me as a CEO who 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:42.799 is trying to fundraise is absence of actual products. 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:45.980 Like I just did not feel like I am the CEO of 00:15:45.980 --> 00:15:47.700 a startup until I have a product. So I decided 00:15:47.700 --> 00:15:50.960 that fine, we're just going to invest a little 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:54.220 bit into developing a low quote version of the 00:15:54.220 --> 00:15:57.139 product and then VP slash functional that version. 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:00.460 So we found an agency that specializes in that, 00:16:00.460 --> 00:16:03.679 uh, found an agency rather, I knew someone from 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:07.179 the community who does that and, uh, just starting 00:16:07.179 --> 00:16:09.679 to build an agency. So they knew some portfolio 00:16:09.679 --> 00:16:11.700 cases that they were really willing to do it 00:16:11.700 --> 00:16:14.360 really, really cheap. We did, we started work 00:16:14.360 --> 00:16:16.919 developing the product. And that's where we add. 00:16:17.580 --> 00:16:20.159 So since it's our first time doing that, and 00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:25.480 they're also amateurs as an agency. So it's been 00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:29.039 delayed, but again, we're nearly there. Fingers 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:32.100 crossed we're deploying this week, if everything 00:16:32.100 --> 00:16:34.879 goes well. And then once we have that, we're 00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:37.860 partnering with a visa agency that's going to 00:16:37.860 --> 00:16:40.639 offer our solutions part of their package. That's 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:43.399 hopefully going to bring us first paying clients. 00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:46.879 So it should be to be clients as well, because 00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:50.419 this agency works with recruitment. We have that 00:16:50.419 --> 00:16:52.620 traction. Then hopefully we can raise our valuation 00:16:52.620 --> 00:16:56.100 a bit and go there and do our angel rounds, which 00:16:56.100 --> 00:16:59.779 is our main goal. Because honestly, then my imposter 00:16:59.779 --> 00:17:01.860 syndrome, the biggest obstacle is just time. 00:17:02.899 --> 00:17:04.680 Both of us are current. I mean, my co -founder 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:06.640 and I, we're both doing it part -time because 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:09.019 well, early stage startup doesn't pay rent, does 00:17:09.019 --> 00:17:12.900 it? So once we do fundraise, hopefully that will. 00:17:13.150 --> 00:17:15.849 will allow us to allocate at least most of our 00:17:15.849 --> 00:17:19.549 time to what we're building. Makes sense. And, 00:17:19.690 --> 00:17:21.490 you know, when you're building all these MVPs 00:17:21.490 --> 00:17:23.970 and document investors, you talked a lot about 00:17:23.970 --> 00:17:26.269 imposter syndrome. So how do you actually fight 00:17:26.269 --> 00:17:28.670 that? Because I think we all have that in one 00:17:28.670 --> 00:17:30.509 way or another form. How do you fight that? Because 00:17:30.509 --> 00:17:36.089 that's the hard one, isn't it? I just go out 00:17:36.089 --> 00:17:40.109 there and pitch and talk to people and pitch 00:17:40.109 --> 00:17:44.509 and stage. a lot. And I make sure to also talk 00:17:44.509 --> 00:17:48.289 and get feedback from people that are knowledgeable 00:17:48.289 --> 00:17:51.950 in the industry, startup industry, input industry, 00:17:52.150 --> 00:17:55.589 and just make sure that what I'm talking about 00:17:55.589 --> 00:17:58.470 makes sense. We were talking imposter syndrome. 00:17:58.670 --> 00:18:01.470 So let me ask the question again. So, you know, 00:18:01.470 --> 00:18:04.009 there are lots of stories in the startup world 00:18:04.009 --> 00:18:07.369 about founders that were never supported, that 00:18:07.369 --> 00:18:09.289 no one believed in them, they carried on and 00:18:09.289 --> 00:18:13.440 failed and then everything worked out. As resilient 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:16.180 as I consider myself, I can't imagine myself 00:18:16.180 --> 00:18:19.339 in the same shoes, because in my case, it's the 00:18:19.339 --> 00:18:22.319 feedback that I got that really keeps me going. 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:26.700 It's because I constantly get validated by people 00:18:26.700 --> 00:18:29.099 across different industries, whenever they learn 00:18:29.099 --> 00:18:31.019 what we're building, how it's going to work. 00:18:31.740 --> 00:18:35.039 They love it, and they encourage us and they, 00:18:35.079 --> 00:18:37.319 and they still tell me personally as well, how 00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:40.890 much they believe in me and that I take an aggression 00:18:40.890 --> 00:18:44.470 of the person that can make it happen. Like even 00:18:44.470 --> 00:18:47.769 our current partners, the agency that is waiting 00:18:47.769 --> 00:18:51.630 for a release and is cheerleader really, they 00:18:51.630 --> 00:18:54.109 came because of me, because of my post, because 00:18:54.109 --> 00:19:01.589 of my personal brand. And that really helps me 00:19:01.589 --> 00:19:03.650 keep going. It doesn't help me fight the imposter 00:19:03.650 --> 00:19:07.789 syndrome, but it does help me go on despite that 00:19:07.789 --> 00:19:11.440 voice inside of me. So nothing really helps cure 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:14.640 both the syndrome, but there are ways to prevent 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:22.740 it from getting away. Quite useful for any immigrant. 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:26.160 Nowadays I think immigrant is a dirty word. People 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:29.920 look upon it with some negative connotations, 00:19:30.019 --> 00:19:31.799 but in reality it's actually the opposite, right? 00:19:31.880 --> 00:19:33.339 I'm an immigrant, you're an immigrant as well, 00:19:33.900 --> 00:19:35.519 and it's actually a good thing. It's not a bad 00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:38.500 thing for any economy, but it's hard. Have you 00:19:38.500 --> 00:19:40.099 ever met anyone who told you, you know what, 00:19:40.140 --> 00:19:41.880 why are you building this? We already have too 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:43.740 many immigrants because now there's elections 00:19:43.740 --> 00:19:45.339 about happening in the UK and that's one of the 00:19:45.339 --> 00:19:49.180 topics. Did anyone ever tell you that? So I didn't 00:19:49.180 --> 00:19:53.079 have exactly that. I did have a couple of people 00:19:53.079 --> 00:19:56.019 tell me why you're calling it an assistant for 00:19:56.019 --> 00:19:58.200 immigrants, when in fact you should be building 00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:01.539 for experts and saying experts, because as you 00:20:01.539 --> 00:20:04.779 just referenced, the word immigrant often has 00:20:04.779 --> 00:20:08.019 a negative connotation. And I even made a whole 00:20:08.019 --> 00:20:10.680 post on LinkedIn, I performed quite well. And 00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:14.059 I did have a couple of arguments in my DMs about 00:20:14.059 --> 00:20:16.359 that, but there is a difference between immigrants 00:20:16.359 --> 00:20:19.720 and experts. to which I would say, well, it's 00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:23.559 very relative. And, you know, sometimes this 00:20:23.559 --> 00:20:25.980 division sort of makes sense, but most often 00:20:25.980 --> 00:20:28.799 it's used to specifically separate the good immigrants 00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:33.619 versus bad immigrants. And whenever the question 00:20:33.619 --> 00:20:36.259 of good immigrants and bad immigrants arise, 00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:39.359 I always think of my father, relegated to Japan 00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:43.480 in the early 90s. He was already a PhD with a 00:20:43.480 --> 00:20:48.670 few dozen books published. was one book, Oriental 00:20:48.670 --> 00:20:51.730 Martial Arts, published in Germany and being 00:20:51.730 --> 00:20:54.970 one of the international bestsellers in its niche. 00:20:55.750 --> 00:20:59.910 Having translated and studied so many Japanese 00:20:59.910 --> 00:21:02.849 books from Silver Age literature, like not every 00:21:02.849 --> 00:21:04.589 Japanese can read these books these days, just 00:21:04.589 --> 00:21:06.289 because the language changed after the Second 00:21:06.289 --> 00:21:10.230 World War. So he was teaching at the university 00:21:10.230 --> 00:21:13.809 as a professor and, you know, with the track 00:21:13.809 --> 00:21:16.529 record of his, He was kind of worthy of that 00:21:16.529 --> 00:21:20.670 position, wasn't he? But quite a few of his former 00:21:20.670 --> 00:21:23.230 colleagues went out of their way to push him 00:21:23.230 --> 00:21:26.730 out of that position, to do everything that would 00:21:26.730 --> 00:21:29.529 take them to strip him of that job and thus get 00:21:29.529 --> 00:21:34.049 him out of the country, just because they did 00:21:34.049 --> 00:21:37.950 not want an outsider, an immigrant, to take over 00:21:37.950 --> 00:21:41.589 the job that only the locals were all worthy 00:21:41.589 --> 00:21:44.369 of. So that was a sentiment back. in the early 00:21:44.369 --> 00:21:47.589 90s. Yeah, I always recall this episode because 00:21:47.589 --> 00:21:50.990 for them he was just yet another bad immigrant 00:21:50.990 --> 00:21:55.769 that was not deserving his place in their country. 00:21:56.509 --> 00:22:00.490 And I always remember that I, usually being one 00:22:00.490 --> 00:22:04.349 of those good immigrants that no one has anything, 00:22:04.549 --> 00:22:08.130 well, few people have anything against, so I 00:22:08.130 --> 00:22:10.890 can just as well be a bad immigrant to someone. 00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:14.519 Despite the fact that I have full education, 00:22:14.859 --> 00:22:18.279 master's degree, speak five languages, work with 00:22:18.279 --> 00:22:20.880 clients from all over the world and so on, to 00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:22.960 someone I'm still that bad immigrant that has 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:27.559 no business being in this country. So I would 00:22:27.559 --> 00:22:31.700 never be myself any better than less privileged 00:22:31.700 --> 00:22:33.819 people coming from less privileged backgrounds. 00:22:34.950 --> 00:22:37.309 also moving to have a better life because essentially 00:22:37.309 --> 00:22:39.430 that's what we are. That's the reason why we're 00:22:39.430 --> 00:22:41.029 all moving countries just to have a better life, 00:22:41.250 --> 00:22:43.670 better opportunities. It's just that some of 00:22:43.670 --> 00:22:46.089 us are doing it from a more comfortable point 00:22:46.089 --> 00:22:49.890 A and some just don't have that privilege. And 00:22:49.890 --> 00:22:53.849 most often, we really have nothing to do with 00:22:53.849 --> 00:22:55.990 that privilege in the very beginning. We were 00:22:55.990 --> 00:22:59.230 just simply born in social conditions. Well, 00:22:59.230 --> 00:23:02.269 not all of us, but most of us. Yeah. And it makes 00:23:02.269 --> 00:23:04.700 a huge difference when you move country. Because 00:23:04.700 --> 00:23:06.640 the access you're going to have to resources 00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:09.819 makes a big difference. The first house you get, 00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:12.759 the way you present yourself, the way you speak 00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:15.920 the foreign language, these things make a big, 00:23:16.119 --> 00:23:17.359 big difference. And even every time you have 00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:19.980 a setback, if you're in a better financial position, 00:23:20.019 --> 00:23:23.299 that setback, it's not life threatening. But 00:23:23.299 --> 00:23:24.960 if you're in a bad financial position, then it 00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:27.380 becomes this make it or break it situation, isn't 00:23:27.380 --> 00:23:31.619 it? So it's a very interesting thing. Immigration 00:23:31.619 --> 00:23:35.539 is an interesting topic. Do you have the gap 00:23:35.539 --> 00:23:37.779 almost ready? So it's going to launch in the 00:23:37.779 --> 00:23:39.240 UK? Are you thinking about other markets or is 00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:43.240 it just going to be in the UK? Well, I'm trying 00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:45.880 to follow the philosophy of Y Combinator, which 00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:48.559 is building things on scale. So we really want 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:52.180 to get things right for one location at a time, 00:23:52.299 --> 00:23:54.460 make sure that we're serving our customers well 00:23:54.460 --> 00:23:58.980 and that we're actually delivering value and 00:23:58.980 --> 00:24:03.059 it is the business that is sustainable in business 00:24:03.059 --> 00:24:05.990 terms. And then if it all works, or at least 00:24:05.990 --> 00:24:08.349 we see the first signs that it's working, then 00:24:08.349 --> 00:24:10.109 we would definitely want to scale with other 00:24:10.109 --> 00:24:14.369 locations. And your feedback so far from investors? 00:24:15.049 --> 00:24:17.450 I know it's been quite positive, but did they 00:24:17.450 --> 00:24:19.450 tell you, yeah, we actually believe in this and 00:24:19.450 --> 00:24:22.029 we can see the market for it? Or on the other 00:24:22.029 --> 00:24:24.009 side, are they more, yeah, show us some figures 00:24:24.009 --> 00:24:26.109 and then we'll invest? What's their feedback 00:24:26.109 --> 00:24:30.569 so far? I'd say generally from the conversations 00:24:30.569 --> 00:24:32.910 I've had, it's been more positive than negative. 00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:36.640 We do have some investors in the loop that want 00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:42.359 to be kept in the loop for updates, simply because 00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:44.599 the checks they write are bigger than what we're 00:24:44.599 --> 00:24:48.319 looking for at the moment. Some are not convinced 00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:51.500 enough about our future fraction, so they want 00:24:51.500 --> 00:24:54.019 to see a bit more evidence that it's actually 00:24:54.019 --> 00:24:56.099 going to work as a business rather than a social 00:24:56.099 --> 00:24:59.579 enterprise. So they're not slamming us, it's 00:24:59.579 --> 00:25:02.309 just that they need a bit more evidence generated, 00:25:02.309 --> 00:25:07.130 which is fair. Investors want to see more impact 00:25:07.130 --> 00:25:09.849 in metrics and specific figures. And that's also 00:25:09.849 --> 00:25:12.829 something that we need to produce. So not just 00:25:12.829 --> 00:25:14.849 saying we're going to help people rather how 00:25:14.849 --> 00:25:17.809 exactly that helps going to be measured. So one 00:25:17.809 --> 00:25:19.509 of the reasons, one of the things that we're 00:25:19.509 --> 00:25:23.269 doing to tackle that is we just landed place 00:25:23.269 --> 00:25:26.710 in the good tech ventures accelerator, which 00:25:26.710 --> 00:25:30.160 is specifically oriented at impact. minded entrepreneurs. 00:25:30.940 --> 00:25:32.779 And it's not focused on fundraising, but rather 00:25:32.779 --> 00:25:35.359 it's focused specifically on traction in the 00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:37.960 input sector. And we're hoping that a bit of 00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:40.799 mentorship from their side will help us reduce 00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:42.720 the metrics that specifically impact investors 00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:45.380 are looking for. Yeah, so far, I think I've only 00:25:45.380 --> 00:25:47.299 had maybe a couple of conversations with investors 00:25:47.299 --> 00:25:50.980 that deemed us completely non VC backable. But 00:25:50.980 --> 00:25:52.660 that's fine, because we're not looking for VC 00:25:52.660 --> 00:25:55.539 investment at the moment. I would rather not 00:25:55.539 --> 00:25:58.200 have that pressure for hyper growth at the cost 00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:02.259 of our mission. And then, you know, if everything 00:26:02.259 --> 00:26:04.400 goes well, and we are growing as a business, 00:26:04.740 --> 00:26:06.799 and that's when we would probably be looking 00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:11.539 to be successful. Also, I'm sorry, please go 00:26:11.539 --> 00:26:14.940 ahead. Also, I'm honestly whenever I see signs 00:26:14.940 --> 00:26:17.200 that someone is completely not a fit for us as 00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:21.279 an investor, that their mind is solely about 00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:24.019 the figures and hyper growth. Just make sure 00:26:24.700 --> 00:26:27.799 not to ask them for money or even for feedback 00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:30.259 just because it's a very different approach in 00:26:30.259 --> 00:26:33.039 philosophy. And again, with my imposter syndrome, 00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:38.180 I spend so much time just convincing myself that 00:26:38.180 --> 00:26:40.900 I am a startup founder who can do something worthy 00:26:40.900 --> 00:26:44.900 that I have no interest in hearing someone slamming 00:26:44.900 --> 00:26:47.640 me for that. All this harsh feedback that is 00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:50.220 talking about from these investors, you know. 00:26:50.269 --> 00:26:53.710 if the cost of money is my self esteem and my 00:26:53.710 --> 00:26:57.690 overall ability to prove the fact that time has 00:26:57.690 --> 00:26:59.970 started longer, then I'd rather bookstrap for 00:26:59.970 --> 00:27:03.609 a bit longer. It's a bit, you know, matching 00:27:03.609 --> 00:27:05.670 with investors, it's a bit like dating, isn't 00:27:05.670 --> 00:27:07.750 it? You're going to get feedback one way or the 00:27:07.750 --> 00:27:10.029 other, it might not be feedback that you accept 00:27:10.029 --> 00:27:12.190 as valid. Some of it might be very honest, and 00:27:12.190 --> 00:27:14.890 you would take as it being, I don't know, valuable. 00:27:15.349 --> 00:27:16.769 Other you might just think, you know what, this 00:27:16.769 --> 00:27:18.450 is not relevant for me, because these are not 00:27:18.450 --> 00:27:21.079 my values. So If you match with an investor who's 00:27:21.079 --> 00:27:23.640 just focused on hyper growth and you think to 00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:24.920 yourself, actually, that's not what I want to 00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:27.059 do with my company right now, there's nothing 00:27:27.059 --> 00:27:28.940 wrong in saying this is not a good match. Actually, 00:27:29.220 --> 00:27:32.279 that's what you should do, right? As a CEO, that's 00:27:32.279 --> 00:27:36.880 exactly what you should do. Also, some investors 00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:39.140 are just great in terms of their communication 00:27:39.140 --> 00:27:44.200 ethics. Yeah, I literally told someone off. I 00:27:44.200 --> 00:27:46.160 didn't even ask them for money. But like there 00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:48.599 was a founder of one of the startup accelerators 00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:50.680 here in London, we're not gonna mention the name 00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:53.559 of that accelerator. But when I came into the 00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:55.759 office to just, you know, see the team and see 00:27:55.759 --> 00:27:59.259 that accelerator is fit for us. And then that 00:27:59.259 --> 00:28:02.940 person first demanded that I pitch our startup 00:28:02.940 --> 00:28:05.880 to him right on the stop. Usually I have no problem 00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:07.859 with that. But that even just was not a good 00:28:07.859 --> 00:28:10.559 time because I was feeling physically unwell 00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:14.359 and ferocious. So And then, just as I tried, 00:28:14.440 --> 00:28:17.380 he started slamming that idea that it's basically 00:28:17.380 --> 00:28:21.099 a shitty idea for business. And I just cut him 00:28:21.099 --> 00:28:23.299 off short, saying, well, look, you haven't really 00:28:23.299 --> 00:28:25.359 asked him questions to know more about our business, 00:28:26.140 --> 00:28:28.359 our figures and vision, all that. And you're 00:28:28.359 --> 00:28:30.460 already telling us that this is not going to 00:28:30.460 --> 00:28:33.180 work as a business idea. I don't think that's 00:28:33.180 --> 00:28:35.240 the right approach. I don't think we're having 00:28:35.240 --> 00:28:37.799 a productive conversation here. And you should 00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:41.109 have seen... message in his eyes, because I think 00:28:41.109 --> 00:28:44.109 he's so used to people just listening to his 00:28:44.109 --> 00:28:51.609 feedback and accepting that arrogance. Yeah, 00:28:51.930 --> 00:28:54.829 well, it's just a very arrogant, you know, I 00:28:54.829 --> 00:28:56.970 don't like the word mansplain, but it was mansplain, 00:28:57.329 --> 00:28:59.529 a lot of that, in what he was saying. So basically, 00:28:59.569 --> 00:29:03.210 he was just probably very unused to people standing 00:29:03.210 --> 00:29:06.299 up to that. And then his tone completely changed. 00:29:06.460 --> 00:29:08.559 And then we actually had a nice conversation. 00:29:08.859 --> 00:29:10.720 It was again, lots of mansplaining. He was suggesting 00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:12.579 things that were super obvious that we already 00:29:12.579 --> 00:29:14.319 thought about a hundred times, because I mean, 00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:16.559 that's our startup. We've been working on it 00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:19.539 for a few months. So thanks for obvious advice, 00:29:19.559 --> 00:29:21.359 but if it makes you feel good and knowledgeable, 00:29:21.880 --> 00:29:25.980 fine. If you could change something in the industry 00:29:25.980 --> 00:29:29.920 overall, what would you change? What would I 00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:35.599 change? I guess something that everybody's talking 00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:39.099 about that it's really hard to get for female 00:29:39.099 --> 00:29:42.039 businesses, female entrepreneurs. I guess that's 00:29:42.039 --> 00:29:44.359 a big problem. Again, I personally wouldn't be 00:29:44.359 --> 00:29:46.779 the person who would say, yes, I experienced 00:29:46.779 --> 00:29:49.019 that simply because I haven't done enough in 00:29:49.019 --> 00:29:53.960 terms of fundraising. And I don't know if, well, 00:29:54.279 --> 00:29:57.180 actually, I would say it's safe to say that we 00:29:57.180 --> 00:30:00.519 didn't receive any capital so far, not because 00:30:00.519 --> 00:30:02.960 we're female founders, but because annually, 00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:05.460 we do have to work a bit more on our production 00:30:05.460 --> 00:30:09.180 and stuff. But judging by what I see in the industry, 00:30:09.500 --> 00:30:11.819 yes, I guess more female entrepreneurs should 00:30:11.819 --> 00:30:15.039 be funded. And we see a lot of female investing 00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:17.680 networks, but what I've heard so far, because 00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:20.220 female investors, generally fewer of them have 00:30:20.220 --> 00:30:22.700 the capital to fund female entrepreneurs, so 00:30:22.700 --> 00:30:25.980 it just creates this vicious cycle where the 00:30:25.980 --> 00:30:28.950 problem just not getting solved. What else is, 00:30:28.970 --> 00:30:30.950 well, I guess what does need to change? Well, 00:30:30.950 --> 00:30:33.009 at least that is changing in the industry. The 00:30:33.009 --> 00:30:37.849 question is how strong friend this is. More businesses 00:30:37.849 --> 00:30:41.250 should be ethically minded. More businesses should 00:30:41.250 --> 00:30:46.190 be thinking very early on about making a positive 00:30:46.190 --> 00:30:50.750 impact. And ideally, that positive impact should 00:30:50.750 --> 00:30:53.690 not be typical greenwashing. You know what I 00:30:53.690 --> 00:30:55.930 mean? Because many businesses position themselves 00:30:55.930 --> 00:30:59.279 as impact. oriented, just because that gives 00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:01.799 them extra points at events, programs, and so 00:31:01.799 --> 00:31:04.500 on. But in reality, that's quite often it's not 00:31:04.500 --> 00:31:08.359 the case. So I wish that we had more clear labeling 00:31:08.359 --> 00:31:11.319 for impact and more businesses genuinely interested 00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:14.720 in making the said impact, just not using it 00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:19.779 just as a fancy label. Makes sense. I like asking 00:31:19.779 --> 00:31:23.519 this question, but what's the most inspiring 00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:25.380 book you've read that really helps you in this 00:31:25.380 --> 00:31:30.170 journey? The one that, you know, you keep on, 00:31:30.509 --> 00:31:32.130 when you have like moments, you keep on reminding 00:31:32.130 --> 00:31:34.589 yourself of those lines you read or something. 00:31:38.009 --> 00:31:42.309 In terms of my work, it can be a film rather 00:31:42.309 --> 00:31:49.789 than a book. It can be a film, 100%. I'm just 00:31:49.789 --> 00:31:52.730 trying to remember the name. Definitely in my 00:31:52.730 --> 00:31:55.470 work, especially because I watched that film 00:31:55.470 --> 00:31:58.029 when I was working in a cancer care startup. 00:31:58.170 --> 00:32:02.950 So that was this film, a documentary, and I think 00:32:02.950 --> 00:32:06.289 it's called Breakthrough. And it's a film about 00:32:06.289 --> 00:32:09.630 the life and the discovery of scientists. So 00:32:09.630 --> 00:32:11.990 her name is Alison. I'm just trying to remember. 00:32:12.490 --> 00:32:14.450 Was it George Alison? So anyway, the film is 00:32:14.450 --> 00:32:16.109 called Breakthrough, and it's about the discovery 00:32:16.109 --> 00:32:20.269 of immune therapy in cancer. And when you watch 00:32:20.269 --> 00:32:24.059 it, You're taken through his life journey where 00:32:24.059 --> 00:32:28.980 he spends, I don't mean a few decades, research 00:32:28.980 --> 00:32:35.720 trying to discover immune therapy. It was lots 00:32:35.720 --> 00:32:39.980 of failed clinical trials. Like clinical trials, 00:32:40.660 --> 00:32:44.019 it's incredibly expensive projects funded by 00:32:44.019 --> 00:32:46.529 pharmaceutical companies themselves. Getting 00:32:46.529 --> 00:32:49.609 investment for those clinical trials, extremely 00:32:49.609 --> 00:32:52.750 difficult. And then imagine doing those projects 00:32:52.750 --> 00:32:55.589 one trial after another failing and going on 00:32:55.589 --> 00:33:00.730 for decades trying to make a difference by discovering 00:33:00.730 --> 00:33:05.309 severe cancer, not really knowing if you will 00:33:05.309 --> 00:33:08.430 ever be able to do that. Because like when he 00:33:08.430 --> 00:33:11.910 was doing that research, he had no way of knowing 00:33:11.910 --> 00:33:14.490 if there is actually a cure that was searchable. 00:33:16.429 --> 00:33:20.569 And then eventually did discover the therapy 00:33:20.569 --> 00:33:24.289 that did cure cancers even from like fourth stage 00:33:24.289 --> 00:33:29.210 was at the status in the brain. And the documentary 00:33:29.210 --> 00:33:32.710 featured people who were cured in those early 00:33:32.710 --> 00:33:34.750 clinical trials when there was no way of knowing 00:33:34.750 --> 00:33:39.950 that would work. So I found that really inspiring. 00:33:40.349 --> 00:33:43.049 I guess that that documentary is one of the reasons 00:33:43.049 --> 00:33:46.200 why I'm I have a software spot not just for health, 00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:48.319 but also for biotech. I love biotech. I feel 00:33:48.319 --> 00:33:51.619 like it's such a romantic and inspiring. Because, 00:33:52.420 --> 00:33:55.259 you know, what's at stake is the different future 00:33:55.259 --> 00:33:58.539 for humanity. But I'm not sure I would be the 00:33:58.539 --> 00:34:01.339 person who'd be able to sacrifice my life, the 00:34:01.339 --> 00:34:03.700 height of my life, in search of something that 00:34:03.700 --> 00:34:07.799 would never potentially work, or may save the 00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:10.900 humanity from something. But anyway, I feel like 00:34:10.900 --> 00:34:13.500 it's really inspiring, because it teaches you 00:34:13.500 --> 00:34:16.039 that. Sometimes all you have to do is just work 00:34:16.039 --> 00:34:18.780 and work and fly and fail and try and fail. And 00:34:18.780 --> 00:34:21.139 yes, it can take years, but at the end of it, 00:34:21.179 --> 00:34:25.119 it can all be worth it. Interesting. Jane, if 00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:26.739 people want to reach out to you, how can they 00:34:26.739 --> 00:34:30.599 do so? LinkedIn is the easiest. I'm pretty active 00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:34.019 on LinkedIn. Actually, it's easier than trying 00:34:34.019 --> 00:34:36.960 to reach me on my WhatsApp because I think I'm 00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:39.840 on too many startup chats and stuff. So yeah, 00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:43.510 LinkedIn is the easiest. Thank you so much for 00:34:43.510 --> 00:34:45.829 your time, Jane. I really appreciate it. Thanks. 00:34:45.869 --> 00:35:07.050 We enjoyed it, too. Thank you. All right. 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