Welcome to the Innovation Conversation, a podcast
about innovators, both in business and real life.
Hosted by myself, Ricardo Rescual and Harry McCona.
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.tech. Hi, and welcome to another episode of
the Innovation Conversation. Today we are joined
by Jane Fisher. Jane, welcome. Thanks. Pleasure
to be here. Jane, you have a very interesting
life story, a very interesting business going
on. So would you like to tell our audience a
little bit more about it, please? Sure. Well,
I'm a first time founder. So it's quite a rocky
road, but we're learning and getting there. We're
working on an AI assistant for immigrants, which
is an app that guides you through settling into
a new life in your country. Hopefully saving
you hours and days of through the search through
lots of online communities, asking complete strangers
to advise and hoping that you're not going to
get scammed, saving you from lots of complaints
and often unneeded expenses and just general
stress of relocating to your place. And how do
you get started with this idea? Well, I'm an
immigrant born and bred, so I was born to a family
of immigrants in Japan, and over the course of
my own life, I immigrated a few times. So I have
quite a lot of experience. And in one of my immigration
journey, I had a coordinator as me through the
process, tell me where to go, what to do, what
to bring. I could speak to my native language
if I needed to solve a problem. So that was a
game changer. And in my other immigration experience,
actually, to UK. Even though I've lived here
before and I studied here before, I just did
not realise how difficult it is to change countries
where an adult with some sort of a settled life
where you come from and navigating it by yourself
is just extremely difficult because there is
no walkthrough, there is no checklist of the
things you need to do. And even if you do Google
any of them, mostly they're not particularly
that elaborate or they're quite generic. So unless
you are very well connected to the local immigrant
communities, and even that, again, doesn't save
you much time because there is too much information
to look for in process and a lot of that is subjective.
It's just quite a pain. And it takes month and
month to get your life back on just normal track.
I'm not even talking about improving it. When
I was ready to quit my job at the startup that
I was working for before, and I realized that
actually the only way forward for me is the person
who wants to make a difference in the world and
actually be sure that I'm moving towards a direction
towards the impact that I want to make was to
try to make something of my own, to build something
of my own. And my sweet spot has always been
healthcare and public health and health tech,
but my career path just does not yet make me
an expert that can build something in that field.
So I was thinking, okay, where can I leverage
the skills and expertise I already have, while
also making a startup attack business that would
make the world a better place and help people.
So that's how I kind of landed at this idea,
which would be simply digitizing one of my previous
immigration experiences with the power of AI,
which has now got much easier than ever before.
Nice. And how are you finding the journey? Because
you're a first -time founder, so how is it? Will
it be wild? A lot of people ask me what it feels
like to build something in this current climate
when raising this one is difficult and so on.
Honestly, all I have to say is I'm my own biggest
obstacle in all of these things. Had it not been
for my own insecurity, my imposter syndrome,
my lack of confidence, I think we would have
been much further along. I can't blame the current
economic climate for making it hard for us to
raise because I haven't properly started our
fundraising because all the talks we've had so
far have been through solely through warm intros
and they're all pretty reassuring. So it's just
me being shy and not confident enough to ask
for money. That's really been the obstacle. So
that's why we ended up just bootstrapping so
far and decided to focus on pushing the attraction
a bit more so that basically not just to be more
appealing to investors, but for me to feel more
secure to ask for that money, I guess that's
where we're at the moment. So it's been, the
experience has been wildly different from working
for a startup that had investment, which was
my previous experience. Honestly, I cringe so
much at some of the things that we did at that
previous startup where I wasn't a co -founder,
I was just an employee. Just how many things
you realize were so deeply wrong when you're
bootstrapping. But it was someone else's money,
right? So Yeah, but the thing is when I think
of all the money we burn through and how we burn
it how many things should have been done You
know completely different way That's what and
and especially when I think of my own Attempts
to be useful in the startup and to and to fix
things most of that wasn't my job at all and
And thank God I was trying still trying to do
that even in the wrong way because that's what
brought me to where I am now. That's what equipped
me with knowledge how things are not supposed
to be done. And that's what made me the right
hand to the founder in some way. And that's where
that that's what, well, again, brought me to
the point where I am now being of a completely
different non tech background. My background
is communications and journalism. Never in my
wildest dreams. I imagine myself building a tech
startup. Yeah, anyway, being able to start founder
without the money, without investment. It's a
very enriching experience. And even if I do end
up not building what I want to build or not making
it the business I want to make. If I am ever
forced to come back into full -time employment,
I'd say I'm on a very different level of expertise
in business than I was before I started. How
are you finding like learning all these new skills
on the job literally, right? Because you need
to make a lot of decisions on where to take the
company. which tech to build. So how are you
finding all that? I guess you just learn by doing,
right? So in our case, it's both a blessing and
a curse that we don't have the money to make
expensive mistakes. So it's it's easy in the
sense that we're not taking any loans or anything.
So we're playing it safe. And if it doesn't work,
well, it just doesn't work. That means we're
just doing things slower. And if it does work,
then Now it does work and we just continue exploring
and learning other things. Of course, it's very
confusing because there is a lot of content and
information out there to consume. The more you
do this, the more you realize there is no playbook
that would be teaching you if a certain way of
building a startup is right or wrong. Because
yes, there are some best practices and yes, there
are some worst practices, but at the end of the
day, it's a lot about luck. It's a lot about
just connecting certain dots. And sometimes you
may end up building a successful business and
raising millions while having a completely wrong
business model and wrong way of thinking. Or
you can do everything right and still go bust
because well, that's the way things are. Or that's
the way the economy freaked out at the time when
you're building a business. So it is quite a
quite a journey and quite an experiment. So I'm
just trying to be philosophical and chill about
this because I'm not losing anything at least.
Yeah, trying out different things and what do
you do? I always like to ask this question. What
do you do when times get tough? You know those
really bad days like what puts you back in your
state of balance? So, as we haven't earned anything
so far, so it's not that I had a million dollar
loss so far. Sometimes when things go bad, honestly,
the worst things that have been happening over
the last year is just me with my depression phases
because this couple, yes, they really exhausted
me a lot. This integration with some family stuff
happening and so on. So sometimes I just find
myself in this low phase. Literally last week
I experienced or depression phase for the first
time in many moments. And there isn't much that
I can do about this because it's more of a malfunction
of my brain. I just know that I'm thrown into
melancholic and depression phases. And the most
annoying part about this is you start feeling
very apathetic towards work. My co -founder literally
has a manual of what to do with me when that
happens. Because I know that I still can work.
My brain only allows me to tackle tasks which
describe short action points. So if you tell
me you dig a hole from here to there, and you
have to finish by mid -day, that's what I can
do. It's just an analogy, right? So it's a simple
task with very specific criteria and timeframes,
and it's short. So I just make sure while I'm
still okay -ish, but I know that I'm falling,
descending into the depression. phase, I try
to break down my tasks that I have to do for
the startup. And I just make sure that my co
-founder is aware that I am getting to my low
phase, so she can remind me to do this task and
then that's how we get the job done. Those phases
are not too long, they're just like a week long,
sometimes more, but well, we're powering through.
I was just wondering in how, you know, you and
your co -founder, how did you, ladies, I'm assuming
it's a lady as well, how did you meet? So I wasn't
blessed to find a co -founder while studying
or working with someone. It's never been the
case. So it took some time to find the person
to work with. The first person I tried to work
with was an to attend it mostly for the fact
that you could find a GoFundMe and fundraise
there. Well, that didn't happen. I did work with
one person for about four weeks. It was quite
nice, but eventually we split up because we were
doing non -venture back of all by endless framework
and he wanted to try something new. And so I
let him go. So it was an amicable split up and
we didn't have anything to lose. And we'd only
started mostly to see customer research. we're
still using the results of the research. That
was nice, but we haven't done much on top of
that. And then after that, well, I took a break
in the co -founder search because at Antler,
I couldn't meet anyone else that would be sharing
my vision and my passion for input while also
having a complementary skill set. Those two things
are quite important. Then I tried working with
another person I met at the startup event. She
had a complementary skill set, but I just had
this constant gut feeling that something was
wrong, that I'm just for whatever reason, I should
not be built in with that person. And when at
some point, I realized that I can't lie to myself
anymore. So I told her, Hey, I think I'm going
to just put this thing on the course and just
figure out if this vision that we're working
towards is still something I want to do. So let's
just take a break. And then next thing she messaged
me was, yeah, I also thought that it's all a
bit farfetched. I'm like, well, that's not what
I said, but okay. So it's good that my gut feeling
didn't let me make a mistake or work as a person
that didn't believe in the idea of the project.
The next one also found me through an accelerator
network guide, but wasn't particularly big on
initiating things. So it was mostly the kind
of person we would really use at later stages,
but at the early stages. I'm not great at delegating.
I really need the person near me to step up and
offer what they can do. And that just, again,
wasn't quite the case. So at some point he fell
out of love with the idea. And I guess I wasn't
great at getting him engaged early on. But by
that time, I always met Alex, my current co -founder.
Again, we met just to start the event with an
open mic. It was Rare Founders event. And I was
hard to miss at that event because it was Halloween
themed and it was last minute Halloween. things.
So very few people came dressed up and I and
I just happened to have a costume on my shelf,
a costume of Alice in Wonderland. Yes, it's just
it's a proper Alice in Wonderland costume. And
I pitched it into the open mic that evening.
So for the next few months, whenever I started
describing our startup to anyone, if that person
was at that event, they'd be like, Oh, the founder
of a fish in Alice in Wonderland attire. So that's
a funny reputation to acquire. I had a costume
competition at that event, so I got a meeting
with an investor in every year of our financial
model. So that was out for nothing. Alex saw
me, came up to speak to me, and then we discovered
synergy in our skill sets and passions. And then
we met a few more times, decided to do a task
period of working together. And over that time,
I saw her as a person who shows initiative, who
shows responsibility, who's not afraid to challenge
me when she thinks I'm not making sense. but
in a very ethical and respectful way. And then
finally, when I was very ill with very violent
flu in January, and she offered to come and go
with Aunt E with me in the dead of night, despite
the fact that I was contagious and she lives
in the other end of London. I didn't accept her
generous offer. I figured that really makes our
relationship very much alike. And that was, that's
what is important for me and someone I'm building
a business with chemistry and the similar ethical
and relationship values. Because I mean, with
skillset, obviously, it's important to have complementary
skill sets. But at the end of the day, building
a business is not just about skill sets. It's
also about having that person who's back you
always have make sense. So yeah, that was, I
guess, the final straw that convinced me that
it's time to sign the co -op. Interesting. And
what are your plans for the future? Well, first
we try to fundraise for the idea and think about
non -technical ways to join MVP with like Slack
or something. But then I realized that again,
biggest obstacle so far is for me as a CEO who
is trying to fundraise is absence of actual products.
Like I just did not feel like I am the CEO of
a startup until I have a product. So I decided
that fine, we're just going to invest a little
bit into developing a low quote version of the
product and then VP slash functional that version.
So we found an agency that specializes in that,
uh, found an agency rather, I knew someone from
the community who does that and, uh, just starting
to build an agency. So they knew some portfolio
cases that they were really willing to do it
really, really cheap. We did, we started work
developing the product. And that's where we add.
So since it's our first time doing that, and
they're also amateurs as an agency. So it's been
delayed, but again, we're nearly there. Fingers
crossed we're deploying this week, if everything
goes well. And then once we have that, we're
partnering with a visa agency that's going to
offer our solutions part of their package. That's
hopefully going to bring us first paying clients.
So it should be to be clients as well, because
this agency works with recruitment. We have that
traction. Then hopefully we can raise our valuation
a bit and go there and do our angel rounds, which
is our main goal. Because honestly, then my imposter
syndrome, the biggest obstacle is just time.
Both of us are current. I mean, my co -founder
and I, we're both doing it part -time because
well, early stage startup doesn't pay rent, does
it? So once we do fundraise, hopefully that will.
will allow us to allocate at least most of our
time to what we're building. Makes sense. And,
you know, when you're building all these MVPs
and document investors, you talked a lot about
imposter syndrome. So how do you actually fight
that? Because I think we all have that in one
way or another form. How do you fight that? Because
that's the hard one, isn't it? I just go out
there and pitch and talk to people and pitch
and stage. a lot. And I make sure to also talk
and get feedback from people that are knowledgeable
in the industry, startup industry, input industry,
and just make sure that what I'm talking about
makes sense. We were talking imposter syndrome.
So let me ask the question again. So, you know,
there are lots of stories in the startup world
about founders that were never supported, that
no one believed in them, they carried on and
failed and then everything worked out. As resilient
as I consider myself, I can't imagine myself
in the same shoes, because in my case, it's the
feedback that I got that really keeps me going.
It's because I constantly get validated by people
across different industries, whenever they learn
what we're building, how it's going to work.
They love it, and they encourage us and they,
and they still tell me personally as well, how
much they believe in me and that I take an aggression
of the person that can make it happen. Like even
our current partners, the agency that is waiting
for a release and is cheerleader really, they
came because of me, because of my post, because
of my personal brand. And that really helps me
keep going. It doesn't help me fight the imposter
syndrome, but it does help me go on despite that
voice inside of me. So nothing really helps cure
both the syndrome, but there are ways to prevent
it from getting away. Quite useful for any immigrant.
Nowadays I think immigrant is a dirty word. People
look upon it with some negative connotations,
but in reality it's actually the opposite, right?
I'm an immigrant, you're an immigrant as well,
and it's actually a good thing. It's not a bad
thing for any economy, but it's hard. Have you
ever met anyone who told you, you know what,
why are you building this? We already have too
many immigrants because now there's elections
about happening in the UK and that's one of the
topics. Did anyone ever tell you that? So I didn't
have exactly that. I did have a couple of people
tell me why you're calling it an assistant for
immigrants, when in fact you should be building
for experts and saying experts, because as you
just referenced, the word immigrant often has
a negative connotation. And I even made a whole
post on LinkedIn, I performed quite well. And
I did have a couple of arguments in my DMs about
that, but there is a difference between immigrants
and experts. to which I would say, well, it's
very relative. And, you know, sometimes this
division sort of makes sense, but most often
it's used to specifically separate the good immigrants
versus bad immigrants. And whenever the question
of good immigrants and bad immigrants arise,
I always think of my father, relegated to Japan
in the early 90s. He was already a PhD with a
few dozen books published. was one book, Oriental
Martial Arts, published in Germany and being
one of the international bestsellers in its niche.
Having translated and studied so many Japanese
books from Silver Age literature, like not every
Japanese can read these books these days, just
because the language changed after the Second
World War. So he was teaching at the university
as a professor and, you know, with the track
record of his, He was kind of worthy of that
position, wasn't he? But quite a few of his former
colleagues went out of their way to push him
out of that position, to do everything that would
take them to strip him of that job and thus get
him out of the country, just because they did
not want an outsider, an immigrant, to take over
the job that only the locals were all worthy
of. So that was a sentiment back. in the early
90s. Yeah, I always recall this episode because
for them he was just yet another bad immigrant
that was not deserving his place in their country.
And I always remember that I, usually being one
of those good immigrants that no one has anything,
well, few people have anything against, so I
can just as well be a bad immigrant to someone.
Despite the fact that I have full education,
master's degree, speak five languages, work with
clients from all over the world and so on, to
someone I'm still that bad immigrant that has
no business being in this country. So I would
never be myself any better than less privileged
people coming from less privileged backgrounds.
also moving to have a better life because essentially
that's what we are. That's the reason why we're
all moving countries just to have a better life,
better opportunities. It's just that some of
us are doing it from a more comfortable point
A and some just don't have that privilege. And
most often, we really have nothing to do with
that privilege in the very beginning. We were
just simply born in social conditions. Well,
not all of us, but most of us. Yeah. And it makes
a huge difference when you move country. Because
the access you're going to have to resources
makes a big difference. The first house you get,
the way you present yourself, the way you speak
the foreign language, these things make a big,
big difference. And even every time you have
a setback, if you're in a better financial position,
that setback, it's not life threatening. But
if you're in a bad financial position, then it
becomes this make it or break it situation, isn't
it? So it's a very interesting thing. Immigration
is an interesting topic. Do you have the gap
almost ready? So it's going to launch in the
UK? Are you thinking about other markets or is
it just going to be in the UK? Well, I'm trying
to follow the philosophy of Y Combinator, which
is building things on scale. So we really want
to get things right for one location at a time,
make sure that we're serving our customers well
and that we're actually delivering value and
it is the business that is sustainable in business
terms. And then if it all works, or at least
we see the first signs that it's working, then
we would definitely want to scale with other
locations. And your feedback so far from investors?
I know it's been quite positive, but did they
tell you, yeah, we actually believe in this and
we can see the market for it? Or on the other
side, are they more, yeah, show us some figures
and then we'll invest? What's their feedback
so far? I'd say generally from the conversations
I've had, it's been more positive than negative.
We do have some investors in the loop that want
to be kept in the loop for updates, simply because
the checks they write are bigger than what we're
looking for at the moment. Some are not convinced
enough about our future fraction, so they want
to see a bit more evidence that it's actually
going to work as a business rather than a social
enterprise. So they're not slamming us, it's
just that they need a bit more evidence generated,
which is fair. Investors want to see more impact
in metrics and specific figures. And that's also
something that we need to produce. So not just
saying we're going to help people rather how
exactly that helps going to be measured. So one
of the reasons, one of the things that we're
doing to tackle that is we just landed place
in the good tech ventures accelerator, which
is specifically oriented at impact. minded entrepreneurs.
And it's not focused on fundraising, but rather
it's focused specifically on traction in the
input sector. And we're hoping that a bit of
mentorship from their side will help us reduce
the metrics that specifically impact investors
are looking for. Yeah, so far, I think I've only
had maybe a couple of conversations with investors
that deemed us completely non VC backable. But
that's fine, because we're not looking for VC
investment at the moment. I would rather not
have that pressure for hyper growth at the cost
of our mission. And then, you know, if everything
goes well, and we are growing as a business,
and that's when we would probably be looking
to be successful. Also, I'm sorry, please go
ahead. Also, I'm honestly whenever I see signs
that someone is completely not a fit for us as
an investor, that their mind is solely about
the figures and hyper growth. Just make sure
not to ask them for money or even for feedback
just because it's a very different approach in
philosophy. And again, with my imposter syndrome,
I spend so much time just convincing myself that
I am a startup founder who can do something worthy
that I have no interest in hearing someone slamming
me for that. All this harsh feedback that is
talking about from these investors, you know.
if the cost of money is my self esteem and my
overall ability to prove the fact that time has
started longer, then I'd rather bookstrap for
a bit longer. It's a bit, you know, matching
with investors, it's a bit like dating, isn't
it? You're going to get feedback one way or the
other, it might not be feedback that you accept
as valid. Some of it might be very honest, and
you would take as it being, I don't know, valuable.
Other you might just think, you know what, this
is not relevant for me, because these are not
my values. So If you match with an investor who's
just focused on hyper growth and you think to
yourself, actually, that's not what I want to
do with my company right now, there's nothing
wrong in saying this is not a good match. Actually,
that's what you should do, right? As a CEO, that's
exactly what you should do. Also, some investors
are just great in terms of their communication
ethics. Yeah, I literally told someone off. I
didn't even ask them for money. But like there
was a founder of one of the startup accelerators
here in London, we're not gonna mention the name
of that accelerator. But when I came into the
office to just, you know, see the team and see
that accelerator is fit for us. And then that
person first demanded that I pitch our startup
to him right on the stop. Usually I have no problem
with that. But that even just was not a good
time because I was feeling physically unwell
and ferocious. So And then, just as I tried,
he started slamming that idea that it's basically
a shitty idea for business. And I just cut him
off short, saying, well, look, you haven't really
asked him questions to know more about our business,
our figures and vision, all that. And you're
already telling us that this is not going to
work as a business idea. I don't think that's
the right approach. I don't think we're having
a productive conversation here. And you should
have seen... message in his eyes, because I think
he's so used to people just listening to his
feedback and accepting that arrogance. Yeah,
well, it's just a very arrogant, you know, I
don't like the word mansplain, but it was mansplain,
a lot of that, in what he was saying. So basically,
he was just probably very unused to people standing
up to that. And then his tone completely changed.
And then we actually had a nice conversation.
It was again, lots of mansplaining. He was suggesting
things that were super obvious that we already
thought about a hundred times, because I mean,
that's our startup. We've been working on it
for a few months. So thanks for obvious advice,
but if it makes you feel good and knowledgeable,
fine. If you could change something in the industry
overall, what would you change? What would I
change? I guess something that everybody's talking
about that it's really hard to get for female
businesses, female entrepreneurs. I guess that's
a big problem. Again, I personally wouldn't be
the person who would say, yes, I experienced
that simply because I haven't done enough in
terms of fundraising. And I don't know if, well,
actually, I would say it's safe to say that we
didn't receive any capital so far, not because
we're female founders, but because annually,
we do have to work a bit more on our production
and stuff. But judging by what I see in the industry,
yes, I guess more female entrepreneurs should
be funded. And we see a lot of female investing
networks, but what I've heard so far, because
female investors, generally fewer of them have
the capital to fund female entrepreneurs, so
it just creates this vicious cycle where the
problem just not getting solved. What else is,
well, I guess what does need to change? Well,
at least that is changing in the industry. The
question is how strong friend this is. More businesses
should be ethically minded. More businesses should
be thinking very early on about making a positive
impact. And ideally, that positive impact should
not be typical greenwashing. You know what I
mean? Because many businesses position themselves
as impact. oriented, just because that gives
them extra points at events, programs, and so
on. But in reality, that's quite often it's not
the case. So I wish that we had more clear labeling
for impact and more businesses genuinely interested
in making the said impact, just not using it
just as a fancy label. Makes sense. I like asking
this question, but what's the most inspiring
book you've read that really helps you in this
journey? The one that, you know, you keep on,
when you have like moments, you keep on reminding
yourself of those lines you read or something.
In terms of my work, it can be a film rather
than a book. It can be a film, 100%. I'm just
trying to remember the name. Definitely in my
work, especially because I watched that film
when I was working in a cancer care startup.
So that was this film, a documentary, and I think
it's called Breakthrough. And it's a film about
the life and the discovery of scientists. So
her name is Alison. I'm just trying to remember.
Was it George Alison? So anyway, the film is
called Breakthrough, and it's about the discovery
of immune therapy in cancer. And when you watch
it, You're taken through his life journey where
he spends, I don't mean a few decades, research
trying to discover immune therapy. It was lots
of failed clinical trials. Like clinical trials,
it's incredibly expensive projects funded by
pharmaceutical companies themselves. Getting
investment for those clinical trials, extremely
difficult. And then imagine doing those projects
one trial after another failing and going on
for decades trying to make a difference by discovering
severe cancer, not really knowing if you will
ever be able to do that. Because like when he
was doing that research, he had no way of knowing
if there is actually a cure that was searchable.
And then eventually did discover the therapy
that did cure cancers even from like fourth stage
was at the status in the brain. And the documentary
featured people who were cured in those early
clinical trials when there was no way of knowing
that would work. So I found that really inspiring.
I guess that that documentary is one of the reasons
why I'm I have a software spot not just for health,
but also for biotech. I love biotech. I feel
like it's such a romantic and inspiring. Because,
you know, what's at stake is the different future
for humanity. But I'm not sure I would be the
person who'd be able to sacrifice my life, the
height of my life, in search of something that
would never potentially work, or may save the
humanity from something. But anyway, I feel like
it's really inspiring, because it teaches you
that. Sometimes all you have to do is just work
and work and fly and fail and try and fail. And
yes, it can take years, but at the end of it,
it can all be worth it. Interesting. Jane, if
people want to reach out to you, how can they
do so? LinkedIn is the easiest. I'm pretty active
on LinkedIn. Actually, it's easier than trying
to reach me on my WhatsApp because I think I'm
on too many startup chats and stuff. So yeah,
LinkedIn is the easiest. Thank you so much for
your time, Jane. I really appreciate it. Thanks.
We enjoyed it, too. Thank you. All right. This
podcast is also sponsored by startupnetworks
.co .uk. Startup Networks is an online forum
where you can find all the resources you need
to run your startup, from grants to investors
to tips and tricks on how to be successful in
your startup. This podcast is also sponsored
by ODEV Tech. ODEV Tech is your premier software
development partner. Make sure you check them
out at odev .tech.