WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.859 Welcome to the Innovation Conversation, a podcast 00:00:02.859 --> 00:00:05.360 about innovators, both in business and real life. 00:00:05.860 --> 00:00:08.419 Hosted by myself, Ricardo Rescual and Harry McCona. 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:11.660 This podcast is sponsored by openexperts .com. 00:00:11.919 --> 00:00:14.140 OpenExperts is a place to go if you're looking 00:00:14.140 --> 00:00:16.339 to talk with top experts from around the world. 00:00:16.539 --> 00:00:20.879 That is open -experts .com. This podcast is also 00:00:20.879 --> 00:00:24.539 sponsored by startupnetworks .co .uk. Startup 00:00:24.539 --> 00:00:26.820 Networks, it's an online forum where you can 00:00:26.820 --> 00:00:28.739 find all the resources you need to learn your 00:00:28.739 --> 00:00:31.460 startup. from grants to investors to tips and 00:00:31.460 --> 00:00:33.259 tricks on how to be successful when you start. 00:00:33.500 --> 00:00:36.719 This podcast is also sponsored by ODEV Tech. 00:00:37.460 --> 00:00:39.719 ODEV Tech is your premier software development 00:00:39.719 --> 00:00:43.159 partner. Make sure you check them out at odev 00:00:43.159 --> 00:00:47.579 .tech. Today we are joined by the team from ODEV 00:00:47.579 --> 00:00:50.420 Tech, one of our sponsors, Esteban, Keenan and 00:00:50.420 --> 00:00:55.909 Rufus. Gentlemen, welcome. It's a pleasure having 00:00:55.909 --> 00:00:58.429 you here on the podcast. I would love to start 00:00:58.429 --> 00:01:01.350 the podcast, this episode of the podcast, by 00:01:01.350 --> 00:01:04.310 hearing a bit more about how Olive Tech got started. 00:01:04.810 --> 00:01:06.329 So I don't know which one of you would like to 00:01:06.329 --> 00:01:08.150 go ahead and tell the story. I'm sure our audience 00:01:08.150 --> 00:01:13.390 would love to hear it. Well, maybe I can kick 00:01:13.390 --> 00:01:18.329 off and then Keenan, you can tell us more about 00:01:18.329 --> 00:01:21.349 the history. He has been been there for a long 00:01:21.349 --> 00:01:26.489 time. working with us. Odev started maybe 10 00:01:26.489 --> 00:01:32.930 years ago. We found out that people were struggling 00:01:32.930 --> 00:01:39.609 to find good development films. So we jumped 00:01:39.609 --> 00:01:44.799 in and we tried to solve that issue. Many of 00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:48.319 our clients are startups or companies looking 00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:53.879 for trustworthy teams, senior development services. 00:01:54.760 --> 00:01:59.540 So here we are. And Keenan and Rufus are big 00:01:59.540 --> 00:02:05.319 partners on Odev and has been with us for a long 00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:09.319 time. So I don't know, maybe Keenan. You can 00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:12.939 tell more as an old client and now a partner 00:02:12.939 --> 00:02:18.979 something more else. Yeah. Okay. So my side, 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:23.360 I think it actually goes back to 2008 for me, 00:02:23.620 --> 00:02:26.300 which a long time ago, but so I had a startup. 00:02:27.079 --> 00:02:29.300 Brilliant startup, by the way, it was destined 00:02:29.300 --> 00:02:31.240 for greatness. But unfortunately, it didn't work. 00:02:31.500 --> 00:02:33.900 Yeah, so that's 2008. I mean, the world was against 00:02:33.900 --> 00:02:35.919 us at that time. You forget how depressing it 00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:39.340 was. But we needless to say, we ran out of money. 00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:44.159 And so I ended up working in a bank, which I 00:02:44.159 --> 00:02:49.400 mean, I really had to kind of sacrifice my morals. 00:02:50.139 --> 00:02:52.099 But sometimes you got to do those things. I had 00:02:52.099 --> 00:02:54.560 to make some money somehow. This was a we actually, 00:02:54.680 --> 00:02:56.860 it was quite an interesting project. for a bank, 00:02:56.960 --> 00:02:58.740 it was quite innovative. We're building Twitter 00:02:58.740 --> 00:03:01.699 inside a bank. And part of the reason they were 00:03:01.699 --> 00:03:06.039 doing that was to try and cut down on on spend 00:03:06.039 --> 00:03:09.020 on Bloomberg chat. So this was, you know, sort 00:03:09.020 --> 00:03:10.840 of 2008 again, they even the banks were trying 00:03:10.840 --> 00:03:13.900 to try to cut costs. And so it was quite innovative. 00:03:14.379 --> 00:03:17.740 Well, if anyone remembers IE 8, you might remember 00:03:17.740 --> 00:03:20.439 how difficult it is to build anything at all 00:03:20.439 --> 00:03:24.099 for it on IE 8. I mean, absolutely horrendous. 00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:28.400 So for that aside, We ended up getting, uh, I 00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:32.020 think somebody from Upwork and kind of random. 00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:35.620 Um, we were trying to build MVPs sort of outside 00:03:35.620 --> 00:03:37.479 the bank just because it was faster. And then, 00:03:37.479 --> 00:03:40.199 and then sort of show the product off, uh, internally, 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:43.520 but, um, it's always a bit random or it feels 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:46.060 random sometimes just going onto Upwork and, 00:03:46.060 --> 00:03:50.159 and, uh, finding, you know, whoever. And Elliot, 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:53.659 long story short, it turns out the person that 00:03:53.659 --> 00:03:56.590 I kind of started contracting with. When things 00:03:56.590 --> 00:03:59.330 got difficult, he ended up subcontracting. I'm 00:03:59.330 --> 00:04:00.770 not sure if you're still there because we stopped 00:04:00.770 --> 00:04:05.889 hearing you. Shamanics. The problem with the 00:04:05.889 --> 00:04:12.949 shamanics. Where did I stop? You were talking 00:04:12.949 --> 00:04:15.469 about you built Twitter for a bank? Yeah. Oh 00:04:15.469 --> 00:04:20.829 no, stop there. Okay. Did I talk about IE8? I 00:04:20.829 --> 00:04:23.569 did, didn't I? Yes. And then you're saying about, 00:04:23.569 --> 00:04:26.670 I got the, I, it was hard to build an IE8 and 00:04:26.670 --> 00:04:31.069 that was it. Okay. So basically saying, so hired 00:04:31.069 --> 00:04:34.750 some from Upwork and, uh, which is always a little 00:04:34.750 --> 00:04:37.089 bit random. And it turned out the guy I hired 00:04:37.089 --> 00:04:39.670 from Upwork was, was subcontracting the difficult 00:04:39.670 --> 00:04:43.610 work to Esteban. So obviously that didn't last 00:04:43.610 --> 00:04:45.430 long. Once I found that out, it went straight 00:04:45.430 --> 00:04:48.389 to Esteban and then, uh, the other. other guy 00:04:48.389 --> 00:04:51.670 unfortunately got fired and Esteban and I started 00:04:51.670 --> 00:04:56.269 off building this product inside HSBC. And so 00:04:56.269 --> 00:04:58.189 for me, that was the starting point of our sort 00:04:58.189 --> 00:05:00.490 of working relationship. And then we've been 00:05:00.490 --> 00:05:04.649 through a number of startups, sort of my own 00:05:04.649 --> 00:05:06.870 startups and you've had some of your own as well. 00:05:06.889 --> 00:05:09.189 And then some of my other friends startups and 00:05:09.189 --> 00:05:13.910 sort of the patchwork of kind of startups, particularly 00:05:13.910 --> 00:05:16.259 in the UK. kind of sort of London, you know, 00:05:16.279 --> 00:05:19.040 your friends and that sort of thing. It's what 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:21.620 once you for us, it was more about just having 00:05:21.620 --> 00:05:26.480 some confidence in in the resources that we were 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:28.879 using. And obviously, for a startup, you're always 00:05:28.879 --> 00:05:32.459 cost conscious. And so remote working works well, 00:05:32.459 --> 00:05:35.060 I mean, I'm sure like many, right, we've been 00:05:35.060 --> 00:05:37.540 all remote working and offshore for for that 00:05:37.540 --> 00:05:39.860 1015 years. I mean, it's been standard for a 00:05:39.860 --> 00:05:42.259 long, long time. So and the cost benefits of 00:05:42.259 --> 00:05:45.620 that obviously are enormous. So, so yeah, so 00:05:45.620 --> 00:05:50.000 that's my starting point. Yeah. Long time. And 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:53.980 then, and then Rufus, when did you join? I joined 00:05:53.980 --> 00:05:57.600 a year ago and I come from, from essentially 00:05:57.600 --> 00:06:00.939 the amoral banking side that Keenan spoke of 00:06:00.939 --> 00:06:06.420 a few minutes ago. I was managing money for, 00:06:06.420 --> 00:06:08.920 for hedge funds and stuff. So the real dark, 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:14.959 the real dark side of, of, no, I'm joking. I 00:06:14.959 --> 00:06:17.420 had a great, I love that job, but I loved crypto 00:06:17.420 --> 00:06:20.379 even more. And I got the opportunity to lead 00:06:20.379 --> 00:06:24.120 a crypto startup listed on the TSX -V and jumped 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:28.279 at it with both hands. And I ended up representing 00:06:28.279 --> 00:06:33.199 or leading a UK based service driven crypto broker 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:37.100 set up by some UK traditional finance entrepreneurs 00:06:37.100 --> 00:06:40.199 in wealth management stuff. And none of us had 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:43.750 any experience building software. all good at 00:06:43.750 --> 00:06:46.829 the business side and revenue generation and 00:06:46.829 --> 00:06:52.870 that kind of stuff and risk, but no one had built 00:06:52.870 --> 00:06:56.430 any software. We were really, I think if someone 00:06:56.430 --> 00:06:58.709 could write a macro on Excel, that was about 00:06:58.709 --> 00:07:02.910 as far as we could go. So we went through two 00:07:02.910 --> 00:07:08.089 CTOs quite quickly to get what we needed for 00:07:08.089 --> 00:07:11.850 the brokerage. We needed an app, a cell phone 00:07:11.850 --> 00:07:15.639 app. We needed a backend to help store all the 00:07:15.639 --> 00:07:19.459 data. And we also needed to integrate somehow 00:07:19.459 --> 00:07:22.000 into TradFi to get an audit done because we were 00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:23.699 a publicly limited company. So there were lots 00:07:23.699 --> 00:07:27.860 of pressures. And after two CTOs, we came across 00:07:27.860 --> 00:07:30.379 Keenan and Esteban and they got the job done 00:07:30.379 --> 00:07:33.800 on time with all that public company pressure 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:35.980 behind us. I didn't have to crack the whip too 00:07:35.980 --> 00:07:38.420 much. They just responded, got on, solved problems, 00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:44.649 found solutions. and did it at reasonable cost. 00:07:46.050 --> 00:07:48.889 What I discovered is that when you go through 00:07:48.889 --> 00:07:54.370 a business career, I'm actually in my third decade 00:07:54.370 --> 00:07:58.230 of business, I know that's hard to believe, but 00:07:58.230 --> 00:08:02.250 when you come across people who are keepers, 00:08:02.250 --> 00:08:04.050 you want to hold on to them, people who actually 00:08:04.050 --> 00:08:08.339 deliver. Nowadays, Tons of people have startup 00:08:08.339 --> 00:08:11.439 ideas or software ideas, but there's tons of 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:12.920 those people who haven't got a clue how to write 00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:15.379 any code. And if when you come across the right 00:08:15.379 --> 00:08:18.199 people who can help you realize your dream, then 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:22.160 it's extremely valuable. And so when I left crypto 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:25.579 brokerage and Esteban asked me if I'd like to 00:08:25.579 --> 00:08:28.220 join them, it was a no brainer really. So that's 00:08:28.220 --> 00:08:33.100 how I came to it. I think we undercharged Esteban. 00:08:43.460 --> 00:08:48.620 As you can see, Ricardo, now we have the good 00:08:48.620 --> 00:08:52.799 guys, the bad guys all together. We are very 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:56.399 good now with all. with Keenan, with Rufus, you 00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:00.299 know, we are working now on many fintech projects 00:09:00.299 --> 00:09:04.000 and we are becoming really cool at that, you 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:08.799 know? So, I mean, it's great to have such team 00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:12.960 and it's great for other startups and companies 00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:17.539 be able to have the team we have, you know? Thinking 00:09:17.539 --> 00:09:20.200 about something, because you've all mentioned 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:23.860 that you've had many previous projects before. 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:26.759 and that actually gave you a lot of experience, 00:09:26.919 --> 00:09:28.940 which when you're building something for a startup, 00:09:29.500 --> 00:09:31.460 you bring that to the table, right? You're just 00:09:31.460 --> 00:09:33.960 not just developing something based on someone's 00:09:33.960 --> 00:09:35.519 request, you're actually giving your input on 00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:37.200 what should be built and the way it should be 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:40.620 built, right? So what do you, you know, what's 00:09:40.620 --> 00:09:42.600 your advice for someone starting a business right 00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:45.320 now? Because you have tons of businesses under 00:09:45.320 --> 00:09:47.480 your belt in different regions of the world. 00:09:47.879 --> 00:09:50.720 So what are like the top three tips that you 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:52.620 always say, you know, do this first and do that? 00:09:52.809 --> 00:09:56.590 We have many ideas. Many, many, many, many, many 00:09:56.590 --> 00:10:01.250 of them. But I don't know. Take care of your 00:10:01.250 --> 00:10:04.690 budget. Take care of your budget. That should 00:10:04.690 --> 00:10:08.389 be one of the first. I don't know. Kin and Rufus. 00:10:10.210 --> 00:10:15.309 MVP iterate test. Yeah. No, even before then, 00:10:15.990 --> 00:10:20.850 for me. So one, even as a developer, I think 00:10:20.850 --> 00:10:23.759 Figma is the best product. that's ever existed. 00:10:24.059 --> 00:10:27.000 I think it's amazing. I think one of my experiences, 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:30.419 particularly of say early stage investing, is 00:10:30.419 --> 00:10:32.799 that hardly anyone actually uses your product. 00:10:33.779 --> 00:10:35.960 I mean, you're lucky if they do. If you get big 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:38.259 numbers and you've got sort of your viral a bit, 00:10:38.299 --> 00:10:40.000 or you get some traction, you know, I mean, that's 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:45.259 awesome. But most people don't. It's the default, 00:10:45.559 --> 00:10:47.759 really. So you can end up putting huge amounts 00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:51.440 of work into stuff that doesn't. get used at 00:10:51.440 --> 00:10:55.340 that early stage. And I'm guilty of that more 00:10:55.340 --> 00:10:58.580 than anyone, I think. But the point I was going 00:10:58.580 --> 00:11:01.740 to make is I think between doing stuff in Figma, 00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:04.840 because design is cheaper than development, because 00:11:04.840 --> 00:11:08.179 you can change it so fast. And you can have so 00:11:08.179 --> 00:11:11.000 many variations. And most of the time, you're 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:13.919 just trying to convey the idea. So you're trying 00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:16.220 to pitch to people, trying to refine the idea, 00:11:16.379 --> 00:11:18.659 trying to try to get across what it looks like. 00:11:19.569 --> 00:11:22.110 So I think that stage should actually last much, 00:11:22.129 --> 00:11:25.929 much longer. Once you get into development, you're 00:11:25.929 --> 00:11:28.950 going down a path which you're committed, or 00:11:28.950 --> 00:11:31.690 it's just harder. Despite all the tools, it's 00:11:31.690 --> 00:11:35.870 still harder to be fast, or as fast as the design 00:11:35.870 --> 00:11:38.490 kind of Figma stage. And the other thing that 00:11:38.490 --> 00:11:43.269 I always think is, is that book, I'll forget 00:11:43.269 --> 00:11:46.049 the name of it now. What is it? Think, someone 00:11:46.049 --> 00:11:49.250 will have to repost me. Think fast? think slow. 00:11:49.570 --> 00:11:52.029 What's that book called? Oh, I've got it here. 00:11:53.230 --> 00:11:58.149 That one thing fast and slow. Yeah, fast and 00:11:58.149 --> 00:12:00.110 slow. That's that's the book I had in my mind. 00:12:00.190 --> 00:12:03.669 Like actually the I find and this is what a lot 00:12:03.669 --> 00:12:05.610 of accelerators basically do the whole purpose 00:12:05.610 --> 00:12:09.549 of an accelerator almost is to is to basically 00:12:09.549 --> 00:12:11.450 make you think like all the big thoughts you 00:12:11.450 --> 00:12:14.029 have in there like a distillation kind of process 00:12:14.029 --> 00:12:17.190 to be able to get do all the thinking required 00:12:17.190 --> 00:12:20.470 to get down to real sort of precision about what 00:12:20.470 --> 00:12:25.029 your business or startup kind of does. So I think 00:12:25.029 --> 00:12:28.690 because that's free, and because doing work in 00:12:28.690 --> 00:12:31.789 Figma and the design and all that kind of stuff 00:12:31.789 --> 00:12:36.110 is, it's not free, but it's cheaper. Like the 00:12:36.110 --> 00:12:40.490 more you can do in that side, the better. So 00:12:40.490 --> 00:12:43.009 that's the first thing. And then the second, 00:12:44.009 --> 00:12:46.129 particular third thing as well, I always think 00:12:46.129 --> 00:12:50.360 of think like if you've got like a barbell you've 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:52.500 got like sell the dream versus build the dream 00:12:52.500 --> 00:12:56.279 and it's like the the more you can sell the dream 00:12:56.279 --> 00:12:59.840 that the better sales skills you have right then 00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:04.340 the less you have to develop and I always struggle 00:13:04.340 --> 00:13:06.500 with this like I mean I build far too much I 00:13:06.500 --> 00:13:08.039 think everyone builds far too much all these 00:13:08.039 --> 00:13:11.779 startups build far far too much in a way and 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:15.700 I certainly think that the more you can sell, 00:13:15.899 --> 00:13:18.120 the better your selling skills, the less cash 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:20.320 you have to spend and the less you have to build 00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:27.559 early on to get your business going. Sorry to 00:13:27.559 --> 00:13:29.480 interrupt you. Where would you put product market 00:13:29.480 --> 00:13:32.159 fit into all that then? Finding that essentially 00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:34.860 first. You've done that before you get to the 00:13:34.860 --> 00:13:38.580 stigma stage, hopefully. Don't you think? No, 00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:41.519 no, no, no, I don't think that will even be close 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:44.860 then. I mean, you're, I mean, maybe in an ideal 00:13:44.860 --> 00:13:47.919 world to get lucky, but most don't, right? So 00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:49.940 I think you have to sort of get to the point 00:13:49.940 --> 00:13:52.840 to you convey that idea to people. And at some 00:13:52.840 --> 00:13:54.940 point, it takes ages, it takes so much longer 00:13:54.940 --> 00:13:57.600 than people realize, I think, to get to the idea 00:13:57.600 --> 00:13:59.159 bit where you say it to somebody, you're like, 00:13:59.299 --> 00:14:02.059 Okay, I get it. That's a really good idea. Right? 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:05.759 Most people never get there. Most people take, 00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:09.720 take paragraphs, right? So tell me about your 00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:12.700 idea. Well, like, like it's a, everyone talks 00:14:12.700 --> 00:14:14.620 about elevator pitch and so on, but like trying 00:14:14.620 --> 00:14:16.480 to get the business down to like two or three 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:18.559 words or something to convey it all, like it's 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:22.580 super, super hard for most, most people. So I 00:14:22.580 --> 00:14:24.200 think you still have to go through that stage. 00:14:24.259 --> 00:14:25.899 You still have to develop, you still have to 00:14:25.899 --> 00:14:28.700 do MVPs. You still have to get it to market and 00:14:28.700 --> 00:14:30.639 you still have to find product market fit. I'm 00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:32.179 not saying that those, you know, you don't have 00:14:32.179 --> 00:14:34.500 to get there. It's simply that the more thinking 00:14:34.500 --> 00:14:37.779 you can do, earlier on, the cheaper the whole 00:14:37.779 --> 00:14:40.220 process will be. And when you come to developers 00:14:40.220 --> 00:14:45.620 as well, the more thick you can be, the more 00:14:45.620 --> 00:14:48.419 it will help your developers and the more likely 00:14:48.419 --> 00:14:50.919 you are to get what you actually want as well. 00:14:53.820 --> 00:14:58.460 There is an example in my mind. With Rufus, we 00:14:58.460 --> 00:15:06.820 went one month ago over startup. marketing platform, 00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:12.539 actually. They actually build too much for the 00:15:12.539 --> 00:15:15.379 traction they have, you know? I mean, they only 00:15:15.379 --> 00:15:20.440 have few users. They didn't have the right pitch, 00:15:21.080 --> 00:15:24.659 but they have built this huge platform and spend 00:15:24.659 --> 00:15:28.179 a lot of money, you know? And they are getting 00:15:28.179 --> 00:15:32.210 maybe 10, 20 users per month, you know? It doesn't 00:15:32.210 --> 00:15:37.789 make sense. When they try to pitch, they actually 00:15:37.789 --> 00:15:42.230 don't know how to give you just a single phrase 00:15:42.230 --> 00:15:49.009 of what this platform does. Rufus, I'm sure you 00:15:49.009 --> 00:15:56.649 remember. It's an example, actually. What I think 00:15:56.649 --> 00:15:58.690 happens is everyone who has the staff, who has 00:15:58.690 --> 00:16:01.139 the business, thinks they're pitching it the 00:16:01.139 --> 00:16:03.960 right way and thinks they're being like super 00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:07.940 precise. Like you think you've got it, but everybody 00:16:07.940 --> 00:16:13.000 else thinks you probably don't. Because when 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:14.960 you run the business, you put so much effort 00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:19.539 into it and you slug away, you work so hard and 00:16:19.539 --> 00:16:22.039 it's super clear to you. It's so clear what you're 00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:25.500 trying to do, but it's never as clear to anybody 00:16:25.500 --> 00:16:28.820 else whose heads are full of all sorts of other 00:16:28.820 --> 00:16:32.809 things. But to be able to explain a complicated 00:16:32.809 --> 00:16:35.730 subject in simple matters, it's an art form. 00:16:36.009 --> 00:16:37.549 And not everyone can do that. Right. That's, 00:16:37.549 --> 00:16:41.070 that's a whole different. Yeah. I mean, you're 00:16:41.070 --> 00:16:43.549 saying communications, one of the biggest skills, 00:16:43.690 --> 00:16:45.149 communication and selling. I mean, if you get 00:16:45.149 --> 00:16:48.970 that right, I mean, I'm assuming that any, anyone 00:16:48.970 --> 00:16:51.450 hoping to do a startup has tried to pitch their 00:16:51.450 --> 00:16:53.470 friends and family first and managed to sell 00:16:53.470 --> 00:16:56.070 them. Cause I think that, okay, maybe that half 00:16:56.070 --> 00:16:59.860 the time they're not interested. And I know, 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:03.899 you know, I've had my ex wife, if I talk about 00:17:03.899 --> 00:17:06.240 finance, she gets used to get very disinterested 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:09.119 quite quickly, financial startups. But anyway, 00:17:09.559 --> 00:17:12.220 that's no, I'm joking. I think if you can't pitch 00:17:12.220 --> 00:17:14.839 your friends and family on your idea, then then 00:17:14.839 --> 00:17:16.759 you are going to go somewhere else with with 00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:19.599 the idea. But I'm assuming we've all done that. 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:22.759 Friends and family are nice to have mostly. Yes. 00:17:24.029 --> 00:17:27.029 Maybe not ex -wives, but generally friends and 00:17:27.029 --> 00:17:30.950 family are nice to you. If your ex -wife tells 00:17:30.950 --> 00:17:33.890 you it's a good idea, it should be a good idea. 00:17:37.009 --> 00:17:40.329 And if you have five ex -wives, well, you have 00:17:40.329 --> 00:17:43.950 a small team to proof your ideas. I would hope 00:17:43.950 --> 00:17:47.750 that my best friend tells me, no Rufus, that 00:17:47.750 --> 00:17:50.309 is not going to make it out the door, forget 00:17:50.309 --> 00:17:55.180 it. But yeah, I guess. I suppose the key is to 00:17:55.180 --> 00:17:57.740 run it by your friends and family before you 00:17:57.740 --> 00:18:00.400 become too involved in it, before too much work 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:03.400 has gone in. What do you say would be the main 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:07.700 challenges of building an MVP? From your perspective. 00:18:08.500 --> 00:18:11.099 We talked about how hard it is to actually be 00:18:11.099 --> 00:18:13.359 able to clarify what you want in the beginning. 00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:16.400 We also talked about making sure they have validation 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:18.059 from your friends and family first, and also 00:18:18.059 --> 00:18:20.220 some good product market. So what do you think, 00:18:20.339 --> 00:18:22.619 from building an MVP, What are the main challenges 00:18:22.619 --> 00:18:26.680 that you see every day? Scoping, scope creep, 00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:30.740 big ideas, big dreams, big dreams that aren't 00:18:30.740 --> 00:18:36.660 matched by the budget. Yes. Flip it. Non -technical 00:18:36.660 --> 00:18:43.880 people. Like, I don't know. Let's build a crypto 00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:47.400 brokerage. Right. I want to do a demo next week. 00:18:47.420 --> 00:18:51.150 Is that okay? Yeah. I mean, how many times has 00:18:51.150 --> 00:18:53.849 some non -technical person kind of said that 00:18:53.849 --> 00:18:57.349 to a very small team? I feel there's a story 00:18:57.349 --> 00:18:59.470 there. I want to find out more about that story. 00:18:59.630 --> 00:19:01.250 Well, yeah, I've said that loads, found a non 00:19:01.250 --> 00:19:04.009 -technical person here. Why not? I want it yesterday. 00:19:04.190 --> 00:19:07.450 Well, I think it's definitely... I was going 00:19:07.450 --> 00:19:09.990 to say, I mean, definitely, I mean, if you're 00:19:09.990 --> 00:19:12.569 not technical, it's very hard to appreciate technical 00:19:12.569 --> 00:19:14.190 challenge. I mean, you look at AI, right? Okay, 00:19:14.269 --> 00:19:16.210 the buzzword of the moment. I mean, if you look 00:19:16.210 --> 00:19:22.880 how hard... real AI is, I mean, if you're really, 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:25.859 really at that low level of trying to build out 00:19:25.859 --> 00:19:28.059 kind of AI models, you know, not just trying 00:19:28.059 --> 00:19:30.380 to build something on top of chat GBT or something, 00:19:30.980 --> 00:19:33.200 but I mean, it's so damn hardcore. Like, I don't 00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:37.259 know. I'm a Kenyan. Go ahead. But I have some 00:19:37.259 --> 00:19:41.440 examples. Seems like I'm the guy with examples, 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:44.339 but go ahead and then I will bring a couple of 00:19:44.339 --> 00:19:48.130 examples. Everybody wants to hear your examples 00:19:48.130 --> 00:19:53.930 now, go for it. Yes. You want to build an MVP. 00:19:54.269 --> 00:19:57.869 One example is if you are a non -technical guy. 00:19:59.109 --> 00:20:06.750 Something I find very often is that when you 00:20:06.750 --> 00:20:11.410 are a non -technical founder, usually the software 00:20:11.410 --> 00:20:16.529 firm that you choose, will not communicate to 00:20:16.529 --> 00:20:21.509 you things in the right way. Some teams will 00:20:21.509 --> 00:20:23.990 just don't hear your ideas because you are non 00:20:23.990 --> 00:20:27.569 -technical and other companies maybe will not 00:20:27.569 --> 00:20:31.130 explain. technical terms in the right way. I 00:20:31.130 --> 00:20:35.109 have a ton of examples of non -technical founders 00:20:35.109 --> 00:20:39.250 about the communication or how they treat them 00:20:39.250 --> 00:20:42.490 companies. They have this great idea, they don't 00:20:42.490 --> 00:20:46.509 understand the technical challenges, but these 00:20:46.509 --> 00:20:49.549 teams don't take the time to explain the challenges 00:20:49.549 --> 00:20:54.069 or they take their hands and guide them through 00:20:54.069 --> 00:20:58.230 the journey. I mean, there are a lot of examples, 00:20:58.329 --> 00:21:02.130 you know, and so if you are a non -technical 00:21:02.130 --> 00:21:06.529 founder, be careful. I would say if you are a 00:21:06.529 --> 00:21:08.970 non -technical founder, get on the standups with 00:21:08.970 --> 00:21:12.690 your tech team every day. I think that was very 00:21:12.690 --> 00:21:17.849 helpful for me to do that with Keenan at Crypto 00:21:17.849 --> 00:21:21.369 Brokerage to realize all the steps that go into 00:21:21.369 --> 00:21:23.730 everything and then... quiz Keenan if I didn't 00:21:23.730 --> 00:21:25.630 understand anything or quiz the tech team on 00:21:25.630 --> 00:21:28.250 that. I mean if you're non -technical take the 00:21:28.250 --> 00:21:31.509 pain and go on a stand -up whenever the stand 00:21:31.509 --> 00:21:35.049 -up is, should be daily I guess, well that's 00:21:35.049 --> 00:21:38.329 what it was with us, daily stand -up song obviously 00:21:38.329 --> 00:21:41.089 because they're called stand -ups. and you get 00:21:41.089 --> 00:21:44.970 a sense of all the planning and issues that arise 00:21:44.970 --> 00:21:47.210 and what can go wrong and how the problems are 00:21:47.210 --> 00:21:51.390 solved and stuff like that. Anyway, that was 00:21:51.390 --> 00:21:54.769 one of my best experiences, actually. When you're 00:21:54.769 --> 00:21:57.630 building a team, what should you look for? What 00:21:57.630 --> 00:21:59.130 are the key elements when you're building a team, 00:21:59.250 --> 00:22:04.559 long term? I think one of the main keys for a 00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:08.779 long -term team is find senior or use senior 00:22:08.779 --> 00:22:13.099 developers. You can use junior, you can use middle 00:22:13.099 --> 00:22:17.720 level developers, but your core team, when you 00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:21.599 start to build your MVP, should be senior developers. 00:22:22.099 --> 00:22:25.859 That is one of the ways to guarantee that you 00:22:25.859 --> 00:22:30.259 can have a long -term team and you have good 00:22:30.259 --> 00:22:36.359 foundations in your MVP. Also, people who are 00:22:36.359 --> 00:22:42.119 committed with your project. If they don't on 00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:45.700 a daily basis, if they are slow on your request, 00:22:46.519 --> 00:22:50.539 if they share their time with other projects, 00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:54.240 that is going to be a big problem for you. You 00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:57.000 should get people who are involved. It's better 00:22:57.000 --> 00:22:59.759 to have a smaller team, but fully committed. 00:22:59.900 --> 00:23:03.579 with the build of your product than a large team 00:23:03.579 --> 00:23:09.519 who is not committed to your product. Also, the 00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:13.680 team should have the right skill sets. That is 00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:21.000 really important. If your product needs a good 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:25.720 UX UI interface or should be visually appealing, 00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:30.849 get a good UX designer. Guy should be part of 00:23:30.849 --> 00:23:40.710 your team. If your platform requires strong backend 00:23:40.710 --> 00:23:44.309 skills, get a good backend developer who are 00:23:44.309 --> 00:23:50.609 fully committed. It's not a currency that you 00:23:50.609 --> 00:23:55.109 can exchange. You should find very good, just 00:23:55.109 --> 00:23:59.109 a few people that will be involved in your project. 00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:02.619 I think also that to add though, I think you've 00:24:02.619 --> 00:24:06.380 got to say what kind of business is it as in 00:24:06.380 --> 00:24:10.200 like, is it a startup or is it a, is it say an 00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:14.960 existing business with, with, and the difference, 00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:17.420 difference I'm going for is like, like, what 00:24:17.420 --> 00:24:19.000 are you trying to achieve really? Like, do you 00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:20.759 just, do you want someone, is this, is this like 00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:24.259 a guaranteed year long, you know, forever kind 00:24:24.259 --> 00:24:27.119 of gig where you're offering stability to a developer? 00:24:27.750 --> 00:24:29.930 and maybe an existing product, or you try to 00:24:29.930 --> 00:24:33.289 get something off the ground. And so I kind of 00:24:33.289 --> 00:24:36.970 take, I mean, most of, certainly my world anyway, 00:24:37.150 --> 00:24:39.589 it's startups. It's like, if you're, if that 00:24:39.589 --> 00:24:41.410 business is there in a year's time, everyone's 00:24:41.410 --> 00:24:44.230 going to be happy, right? So, so I think two 00:24:44.230 --> 00:24:49.069 things. One, generalist is good. Like it's, it's 00:24:49.069 --> 00:24:51.490 the smaller you are, the harder it is to afford 00:24:51.490 --> 00:24:54.230 truly specialist sources. So it's, it's okay 00:24:54.230 --> 00:24:57.259 to be uh to get generalist and generalist just 00:24:57.259 --> 00:24:59.519 means you can you can get somebody to do the 00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:01.740 back end and the front end and you don't need 00:25:01.740 --> 00:25:04.240 and as long as they can deploy somewhere you 00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:06.519 know sometimes you just need to get it out that's 00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:11.460 the only thing so being generalist is fine yeah 00:25:11.460 --> 00:25:13.839 that's it really i i think you've both nailed 00:25:13.839 --> 00:25:20.900 it i think you've both nailed it from the perspective 00:25:20.900 --> 00:25:25.420 of um what you need in the team which which involves 00:25:25.420 --> 00:25:26.940 software development. Of course, all businesses 00:25:26.940 --> 00:25:30.039 now are basically software businesses. Pretty 00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:31.799 much whatever you're doing, you need some software. 00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:37.619 From a less technical view here, I'd say the 00:25:37.619 --> 00:25:42.460 bare minimum in a startup team is you need a 00:25:42.460 --> 00:25:46.000 salesman and someone who can get things done. 00:25:46.839 --> 00:25:50.319 Which equates to, you know, communication and 00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:52.380 the generalist that Keenan was just talking about, 00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:54.779 I think, basically, you need. Because those skills 00:25:54.779 --> 00:25:57.220 are not all, you can't find that in one person. 00:25:57.359 --> 00:25:59.680 It's very rare. Someone who can sell and get 00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:01.920 stuff done with two very different skill sets, 00:26:02.039 --> 00:26:04.759 two very different personalities. So at the very 00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:07.680 minimum, I think you need in the smallest startup 00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:11.220 teams, that's what you need. And the salesman 00:26:11.220 --> 00:26:13.779 has already sold the dream to the generalist 00:26:13.779 --> 00:26:16.380 and they're both in it together. The fight, the 00:26:16.380 --> 00:26:19.720 good fight. There is some quote by someone famous 00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:22.799 who said if you can code or if you can build 00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:26.460 and you can sell, the future is yours. Yeah, 00:26:26.700 --> 00:26:30.119 it's quite hard. It is hard to do both. Do you 00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:33.319 find any difference between obviously your... 00:26:33.319 --> 00:26:35.019 you live in different countries, you operate 00:26:35.019 --> 00:26:37.680 in different markets, defining the key differences 00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:39.799 between all these markets. So you can just tell, 00:26:39.799 --> 00:26:41.960 you know, indicate people do business this way 00:26:41.960 --> 00:26:44.720 in France, it's the other way in Uruguay, it's 00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:47.299 completely different way. And if so, which which 00:26:47.299 --> 00:26:49.519 differences are there? Yes, we don't really operate 00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:54.099 in our markets, do we? I mean, yeah. Potentially, 00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:57.799 yes. Interesting, nevertheless. What I'm trying 00:26:57.799 --> 00:27:00.640 to find out is Because everyone in the UK, a 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:02.079 lot of startups say, you know, it'll be easier 00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:04.380 just to build something for the US market and 00:27:04.380 --> 00:27:06.339 operate there because they have, you know, deeper 00:27:06.339 --> 00:27:08.299 pockets, investors have deeper pockets, or it's 00:27:08.299 --> 00:27:10.740 a bigger market, you know, and all the companies 00:27:10.740 --> 00:27:13.500 you deal with. Do you find that they operate 00:27:13.500 --> 00:27:15.559 in a different way based on where they're based? 00:27:15.779 --> 00:27:17.700 Or actually, they should all be the same way 00:27:17.700 --> 00:27:20.859 regardless of where they're based? I think maybe 00:27:20.859 --> 00:27:25.640 UK based companies or startups are more carefully 00:27:25.900 --> 00:27:29.660 how to spend their budget, you know. Maybe in 00:27:29.660 --> 00:27:35.220 US if they have the budget they just spend it, 00:27:35.220 --> 00:27:38.680 you know, more quickly. Sometimes that could 00:27:38.680 --> 00:27:42.339 be a problem for US starters, you know. Usually 00:27:42.339 --> 00:27:46.180 they try to start with bigger teams, they start 00:27:46.180 --> 00:27:50.619 to burn the budget quicker, you know. In UK I 00:27:50.619 --> 00:27:54.230 think that don't happen, you know. Startups are 00:27:54.230 --> 00:27:59.849 more carefully on how to spend their money and 00:27:59.849 --> 00:28:03.069 the kind of team they want to build. But at the 00:28:03.069 --> 00:28:07.230 end, in the US, UK, they want to do the same, 00:28:07.589 --> 00:28:12.650 to build a great product. In Uruguay, it's totally 00:28:12.650 --> 00:28:15.549 different. For example, in South America, there 00:28:15.549 --> 00:28:19.779 are no development firms. Working for startups, 00:28:20.519 --> 00:28:24.380 usually the startups are built by their own founders. 00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:27.940 They don't hire other companies to build these 00:28:27.940 --> 00:28:31.619 startups. They might hire a developer, for example, 00:28:32.220 --> 00:28:38.319 but it's different in that sense. In South America, 00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:42.359 basically, you build your own startup. You're 00:28:42.359 --> 00:28:45.099 saying something. Well, I think that seems very 00:28:45.099 --> 00:28:49.430 reflective of the of the VC environments in all 00:28:49.430 --> 00:28:51.829 those countries, right? It's much easier, apparently, 00:28:51.970 --> 00:28:54.630 to raise money in the US. So money flows more, 00:28:54.690 --> 00:28:57.109 people spend it more, they are more aggressive 00:28:57.109 --> 00:29:01.690 in the US. In the UK, we have less developed 00:29:01.690 --> 00:29:07.490 VC ecosystem than the Americans, but still probably 00:29:07.490 --> 00:29:09.769 the best one in Europe, as far as I'm aware, 00:29:10.210 --> 00:29:13.480 and the biggest one in Europe. Um, and, but it's 00:29:13.480 --> 00:29:16.000 still not as dynamic as the U S one. And so it's 00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:18.680 more risk averse and therefore budget spend and 00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:20.940 the attitude to budgets and startups is perhaps 00:29:20.940 --> 00:29:25.140 a little more conservative. And sometimes you 00:29:25.140 --> 00:29:29.519 need to be aggressive, but I can't speak for 00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:33.440 South America, but yeah, that would be the character 00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:36.700 of money. We were talking about a web tree and 00:29:36.700 --> 00:29:38.480 I know you guys are building something very cool 00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:41.119 on the tree. Can you tell us more about like. 00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:43.480 How exactly does it work? Can a company that 00:29:43.480 --> 00:29:45.599 wants to build something on Web3 approach you 00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:47.640 and ask for some software development there? 00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:51.380 How does that work? For sure, they can reach 00:29:51.380 --> 00:29:58.859 us and I'm sure we have a great expertise on 00:29:58.859 --> 00:30:02.180 Web3. I'm sure Keenan will tell us about the 00:30:02.180 --> 00:30:04.920 lead protocol and all these cool technologies. 00:30:06.279 --> 00:30:11.180 Alpha Captcha. There are projects we can name 00:30:11.180 --> 00:30:17.559 yet. Remember that, Rufus. I love Web3. I'm the 00:30:17.559 --> 00:30:22.799 hole in the rabbit hole. I'm excited about Web3 00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:26.400 in a way that I'm not excited about Web2 development. 00:30:26.579 --> 00:30:30.740 Web2 development has been the same for 10, 15 00:30:30.740 --> 00:30:34.470 years. It gets pretty vanilla. But Web3 is as 00:30:34.470 --> 00:30:38.130 exciting as it was in sort of like 2000 through 00:30:38.130 --> 00:30:40.650 sort of .com boom, like doing genuinely exciting 00:30:40.650 --> 00:30:43.990 things that that are genuinely changing how things 00:30:43.990 --> 00:30:46.910 are done in the world. So I think Web3 is amazing. 00:30:48.109 --> 00:30:51.390 And I mean, I've been in Web3 for two years. 00:30:52.089 --> 00:30:55.089 And that's, you know, so it's still quite, you 00:30:55.089 --> 00:30:58.750 know, I'm still a bit green. But it and it is 00:30:58.750 --> 00:31:02.640 a different way of working. I think the The difference 00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:05.019 is like in web 2 and even the stuff that we've 00:31:05.019 --> 00:31:08.240 talked about like the rapid iteration of stuff 00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:10.140 I think that's much much harder in web 3. Once 00:31:10.140 --> 00:31:12.140 you've got smart contracts, it's so much harder 00:31:12.140 --> 00:31:17.480 to It's a much slower development and I think 00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:20.900 it's harder to develop. It's slower to develop 00:31:20.900 --> 00:31:24.180 you've got to get it right or closer to right 00:31:24.180 --> 00:31:29.380 first time round and the risks associated with 00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:32.680 money and smart contracts are quite substantial. 00:31:33.779 --> 00:31:37.480 So I think Web3 is intellectually challenging, 00:31:37.859 --> 00:31:40.079 because you have to genuinely do things in a 00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:44.000 really different way. And that's the real challenge. 00:31:45.180 --> 00:31:51.440 As a side note, I think on Web3 and in IA, you 00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:53.779 should be really careful, because there are a 00:31:53.779 --> 00:31:58.730 lot of experts in the field. But when you scratch 00:31:58.730 --> 00:32:02.089 the surface, you find out they are not experts 00:32:02.089 --> 00:32:05.609 on any of the technologies, you know? They might 00:32:05.609 --> 00:32:08.529 talk about smart contracts, you know, protocols 00:32:08.529 --> 00:32:12.710 so far. But again, it's like any buzzword, you 00:32:12.710 --> 00:32:14.990 know? Is there anything like, would you advise 00:32:14.990 --> 00:32:16.970 people to build? Because there's a lot of buzz 00:32:16.970 --> 00:32:19.490 around AI, a lot of buzz obviously around WebTree 00:32:19.490 --> 00:32:23.269 as well. Would you advise people to build something 00:32:23.269 --> 00:32:27.420 on these? for these things for AI or for WebTree 00:32:27.420 --> 00:32:29.940 and build them based on these technologies, or 00:32:29.940 --> 00:32:32.220 quite the contrary, just... Honestly, why would 00:32:32.220 --> 00:32:35.299 you build anything else? Like, why would you, 00:32:35.299 --> 00:32:36.859 if you're gonna start a business now, why would 00:32:36.859 --> 00:32:40.299 you start building something that's already old? 00:32:40.740 --> 00:32:46.819 I mean, it has to be... Gillian IA, right? You 00:32:46.819 --> 00:32:53.279 see some people pop up with... I've seen a few 00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:55.880 on the investing side of things, which we're 00:32:55.880 --> 00:33:00.700 involved with. The moment you've put your head 00:33:00.700 --> 00:33:03.940 into AI or into Web3 and you have a certain way 00:33:03.940 --> 00:33:07.160 of doing things and see what's possible, and 00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:10.220 then you look back at Web2 and you're like, it 00:33:10.220 --> 00:33:14.019 looks archaic. Honestly, why would anyone want 00:33:14.019 --> 00:33:18.619 to invest into a Web2 business now? Why would 00:33:18.619 --> 00:33:20.440 you want to dedicate the next five, 10 years 00:33:20.440 --> 00:33:22.440 of your life trying to build a Web2 business? 00:33:22.619 --> 00:33:27.400 I mean, why? It's just not technically interesting. 00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:29.500 It's not where the world's going. It's not where 00:33:29.500 --> 00:33:31.480 people want to invest in. It's not the future 00:33:31.480 --> 00:33:34.660 of tech. It's not the way to disrupt things. 00:33:35.799 --> 00:33:38.920 So honestly, you shouldn't do anything else other 00:33:38.920 --> 00:33:41.539 than AI and Web3. But obviously, there are still 00:33:41.539 --> 00:33:44.200 some businesses that could use Web2 for multiple 00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:48.059 things, right? I don't know, food delivery service 00:33:48.059 --> 00:33:52.640 or something like that. Yes. I think what happens 00:33:52.640 --> 00:33:56.599 is that you can use web 2, web 3, any technology, 00:33:56.759 --> 00:34:00.240 but the niche start to get smaller and smaller. 00:34:02.099 --> 00:34:06.160 The niches you can tackle are... getting smaller 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:10.119 each time. For example, in the past you can have 00:34:10.119 --> 00:34:14.000 your delivery food app and you can make it great 00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:18.699 and now you should think on a delivery food app 00:34:18.699 --> 00:34:24.980 using drones. You should tackle every time smaller 00:34:24.980 --> 00:34:32.989 or think more in depth of... what you are going 00:34:32.989 --> 00:34:36.230 to offer in your startup. You know, it's like 00:34:36.230 --> 00:34:40.210 getting harder to get good ideas, I think. No 00:34:40.210 --> 00:34:45.789 way. No, that's the opposite. Okay. What's that? 00:34:45.949 --> 00:34:47.889 What's that? Another famous quote. I don't know 00:34:47.889 --> 00:34:51.650 who said it. It was the guy in the late 1800s 00:34:51.650 --> 00:34:55.389 who said he should close the government patent 00:34:55.389 --> 00:34:57.329 office in the U .S. or something because all 00:34:57.329 --> 00:35:00.630 the good ideas had been had. I mean, what a load 00:35:00.630 --> 00:35:05.619 of nonsense. AI and Web3 provide more opportunity 00:35:05.619 --> 00:35:10.059 for new ideas and new ways of doing things more 00:35:10.059 --> 00:35:12.780 than ever before, more than faster to market 00:35:12.780 --> 00:35:17.739 than ever before. Take it back. No, no, no. I 00:35:17.739 --> 00:35:20.880 mean, I got your point, but each time you should 00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:25.800 be more innovative. You should bring more innovation 00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:29.780 and before you bring innovation, you shouldn't 00:35:29.780 --> 00:35:32.190 understand what is innovation. That is another 00:35:32.190 --> 00:35:35.170 problem with many founders. They don't understand 00:35:35.170 --> 00:35:40.150 what is innovation. What I liked about what you 00:35:40.150 --> 00:35:46.329 said was that you need to focus the niche a bit 00:35:46.329 --> 00:35:49.650 more nowadays. So you have to be a bit more specialized. 00:35:50.710 --> 00:35:53.489 Yeah, the example of a food delivery app now 00:35:53.489 --> 00:35:56.630 being drones and then perhaps then someone needing 00:35:56.630 --> 00:36:00.309 to make specific software for drones that manages 00:36:00.309 --> 00:36:03.050 deliveries and then that kind of stuff. Your 00:36:03.050 --> 00:36:06.809 startups probably need to be more niche and more 00:36:06.809 --> 00:36:11.590 focused nowadays given the proliferation of AI 00:36:11.590 --> 00:36:16.190 and Web3. I think that's a very valid point. 00:36:17.650 --> 00:36:24.320 And I wonder how much Web3 reduces or makes the 00:36:24.320 --> 00:36:26.579 investment side of it harder because Web3 is 00:36:26.579 --> 00:36:29.119 more about protocols empowering individuals rather 00:36:29.119 --> 00:36:35.440 than empowering specific businesses or sectors. 00:36:36.019 --> 00:36:38.860 Is that too broad? Is that too broad a generalization? 00:36:38.980 --> 00:36:46.159 I get the point you're making. Like to to but 00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:50.840 this is a good thing because now it is about 00:36:50.840 --> 00:36:53.519 communities and particularly kind of token based 00:36:53.519 --> 00:36:57.579 rewards is looks to reward the community built 00:36:57.579 --> 00:37:01.059 around those protocols, but it also therefore 00:37:01.059 --> 00:37:05.860 disrupts all the Traditional businesses that 00:37:05.860 --> 00:37:11.519 we that we know and it may not love It is There 00:37:11.519 --> 00:37:13.860 you go. More innovation, more ideas than have 00:37:13.860 --> 00:37:15.980 ever existed. We can disrupt the entire system 00:37:15.980 --> 00:37:19.960 now. This is why it's exciting. And it's never 00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:23.099 actually been more important. It's never been 00:37:23.099 --> 00:37:27.360 more important because we run the risk as a society 00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:32.179 of being dominated by Google, Amazon, Facebook, 00:37:32.920 --> 00:37:36.139 Open AI, Microsoft, right? And the more they 00:37:36.139 --> 00:37:39.280 get ahead in AI, the more they're going to steal 00:37:39.550 --> 00:37:42.630 the future on everything, right? They'll own 00:37:42.630 --> 00:37:45.250 businesses that, you know, create nuclear fission 00:37:45.250 --> 00:37:47.610 at some point or solve cancer or whatever, because 00:37:47.610 --> 00:37:51.469 they've got this first mover advantage into large 00:37:51.469 --> 00:37:54.849 language models and stuff. And that means they 00:37:54.849 --> 00:37:59.329 control everything. So Web3 has never been more 00:37:59.329 --> 00:38:04.489 important about empowering startups and the individual. 00:38:05.349 --> 00:38:08.010 And you tie in crypto with that to make sure 00:38:08.010 --> 00:38:10.739 that it's authentic. Because the dark side of 00:38:10.739 --> 00:38:14.079 all this you get. Yeah. I don't think it's just 00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:16.440 first mover either. I mean, you look at, okay, 00:38:16.619 --> 00:38:20.559 LLM specific maybe. And if you kind of dumb it 00:38:20.559 --> 00:38:23.619 down, the amount of compute that you have for 00:38:23.619 --> 00:38:27.000 these models improves the model. Therefore, sort 00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:29.239 of the biggest companies who have access to the 00:38:29.239 --> 00:38:32.099 greatest compute have the greatest models. Yeah. 00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:34.599 And, and so how do you compete against that? 00:38:34.900 --> 00:38:36.420 Like you end up and you look at what's driving 00:38:36.420 --> 00:38:38.920 the markets at the moment, but obviously in video, 00:38:39.449 --> 00:38:43.070 But Microsoft is also at 52 -week record highs. 00:38:43.409 --> 00:38:45.269 It's all the big ones. So the Google, Microsoft, 00:38:45.449 --> 00:38:49.429 we all know that. But how do you then take on 00:38:49.429 --> 00:38:51.769 these big companies? They just get bigger and 00:38:51.769 --> 00:38:54.949 bigger and own more and more. And the reward 00:38:54.949 --> 00:38:59.369 is shared with only a relatively small number 00:38:59.369 --> 00:39:02.070 of people. And that's the exciting bit about 00:39:02.070 --> 00:39:04.349 Web3, whereas you can, rather than rewarding 00:39:04.349 --> 00:39:06.630 only shareholders, you could reward all the users 00:39:06.630 --> 00:39:10.610 of, say, an AI model, for example. Do you think 00:39:10.610 --> 00:39:13.070 that crypto is still a scary word for some people, 00:39:13.210 --> 00:39:16.650 for some investors? Quite on the contrary, it's 00:39:16.650 --> 00:39:19.130 actually being seen as something that they can 00:39:19.130 --> 00:39:21.710 see straight away as functional and there's money 00:39:21.710 --> 00:39:23.710 to be had and they can see the returns straight 00:39:23.710 --> 00:39:28.489 away. We have been raising for a protocol and 00:39:28.489 --> 00:39:31.230 we definitely find that there is like a line, 00:39:31.429 --> 00:39:35.690 sort of Web2 and Web3. If you have to convince 00:39:35.690 --> 00:39:39.969 somebody about Web3, or you have to in any idea 00:39:39.969 --> 00:39:43.010 explain the value of a token, just general terms 00:39:43.010 --> 00:39:46.070 like crypto, token, Web3, if you're having to 00:39:46.070 --> 00:39:49.710 convince anybody at all about any aspect of just 00:39:49.710 --> 00:39:53.190 generally why it's a good thing, then it just 00:39:53.190 --> 00:39:58.889 ain't gonna happen. So people have to buy into 00:39:58.889 --> 00:40:01.730 it by themselves and all their experience. So 00:40:01.730 --> 00:40:04.610 I mean, we wouldn't ever, I think any more pitch 00:40:04.610 --> 00:40:08.179 to a non Web3 investor. For example, it's just 00:40:08.179 --> 00:40:11.460 not worth it. But all the investors should come 00:40:11.460 --> 00:40:14.059 over. I mean, it is genuinely exciting. They've 00:40:14.059 --> 00:40:18.059 got to make that jump into Web3. At least understand 00:40:18.059 --> 00:40:19.420 it. I mean, it's going to be a big part of the 00:40:19.420 --> 00:40:22.639 world. Yeah, they'll have to or they'll die basically. 00:40:22.940 --> 00:40:27.119 Yeah. In the long run. It's all going that way. 00:40:27.199 --> 00:40:30.300 It's a bit like what's happening in the... It's 00:40:30.300 --> 00:40:31.559 the same thing that happened with the dot com 00:40:31.559 --> 00:40:33.989 bubble, isn't it? It just, there was a big explosion. 00:40:34.130 --> 00:40:36.650 Then he had some, some, some companies that just 00:40:36.650 --> 00:40:38.090 went bust. And then after a while it was like, 00:40:38.150 --> 00:40:39.769 okay, what are we doing now? And then he had 00:40:39.769 --> 00:40:41.610 web to show up and then, oh, this is what we're 00:40:41.610 --> 00:40:43.150 doing. Okay. Let's build here. It actually makes 00:40:43.150 --> 00:40:45.349 a lot more sense this way than what we had before. 00:40:45.889 --> 00:40:47.630 So it's just the way of, you know, things progressing, 00:40:47.829 --> 00:40:51.329 I guess, starting times ahead. So I think what, 00:40:51.590 --> 00:40:53.949 what does change is that you get a, you get two 00:40:53.949 --> 00:40:58.269 waves, you get a geomorphic wave. So, and we 00:40:58.269 --> 00:40:59.849 see this in web three as well, where you have 00:40:59.849 --> 00:41:04.099 a you basically have a business that's really 00:41:04.099 --> 00:41:08.420 a web two business, but you change it by 10 % 00:41:08.420 --> 00:41:12.760 and suddenly it's a web three business. It's 00:41:12.760 --> 00:41:15.199 like you just kind of add a twist to it. But 00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:19.599 then at some point, you end up with a genuinely 00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:22.320 like a native web three solution. And there are 00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:24.940 lots of examples coming, but the difference between 00:41:25.610 --> 00:41:27.469 skeuomorphic web two business and a native web 00:41:27.469 --> 00:41:29.670 three business is quite substantial. So that 00:41:29.670 --> 00:41:31.349 way, if you talk about like the dot com sort 00:41:31.349 --> 00:41:33.750 of, you almost got rid of all the old stuff. 00:41:33.929 --> 00:41:37.789 And then all these genuinely new, truly internet 00:41:37.789 --> 00:41:39.909 native businesses really took hold. And then 00:41:39.909 --> 00:41:42.369 that that's the driver for the the next wave 00:41:42.369 --> 00:41:45.150 of adoption. But you're gonna lose the old stuff. 00:41:45.190 --> 00:41:47.530 I guess everyone's excited about the future. 00:41:47.730 --> 00:41:50.710 I'm imagining except for Esteban who's run out 00:41:50.710 --> 00:41:58.260 of ideas. I have a lot of ideas. Yes, it's very 00:41:58.260 --> 00:42:02.519 exciting, you know, the new vaccines with RNA, 00:42:02.860 --> 00:42:05.639 all that stuff, you know, even in biology, in 00:42:05.639 --> 00:42:09.179 medical healthcare, you know, I mean, how all 00:42:09.179 --> 00:42:12.659 the domains are crossing over, you know, how 00:42:12.659 --> 00:42:16.380 this large language model could be used in the 00:42:16.380 --> 00:42:20.139 medical or biological sides, you know, I think 00:42:20.139 --> 00:42:22.909 on the, I mean, All of us, I'm sure we think 00:42:22.909 --> 00:42:26.789 on the next few years, we will see great truths 00:42:26.789 --> 00:42:30.949 on every aspect of our life. I mean, when you 00:42:30.949 --> 00:42:35.449 see now drones delivering packages, I see that 00:42:35.449 --> 00:42:39.889 in South America, in Uruguay. You see now on 00:42:39.889 --> 00:42:43.650 the private neighborhoods, you see drones delivering 00:42:43.650 --> 00:42:48.829 all the packages. That is very cool. Yes, it's 00:42:48.829 --> 00:42:53.010 crazy. is going very quickly, you know? I have 00:42:53.010 --> 00:42:56.429 a very technical question, which is I use ChatGPT 00:42:56.429 --> 00:42:58.690 every day, which is awesome for me for a lot 00:42:58.690 --> 00:43:01.670 of stuff I do. And I also know that, and I've 00:43:01.670 --> 00:43:03.670 tried a couple of times, it's very easy to get 00:43:03.670 --> 00:43:06.130 ChatGPT to write code. I'm not saying it's good 00:43:06.130 --> 00:43:09.349 code, but it is code. Now from a software development 00:43:09.349 --> 00:43:12.869 point of view, is that something that you feel 00:43:12.869 --> 00:43:15.489 people in software development should feel threatened 00:43:15.489 --> 00:43:17.730 by, or on the other hand, you actually embrace 00:43:17.730 --> 00:43:19.469 the fact that you can actually get a lot of work 00:43:19.469 --> 00:43:21.929 done much, much quicker and you can build a lot 00:43:21.929 --> 00:43:28.210 quicker. Embrace it. I think, yes, I mean, if 00:43:28.210 --> 00:43:32.670 you are like us, an innovative development firm, 00:43:33.050 --> 00:43:37.289 you will embrace it. If you are a more classical 00:43:37.289 --> 00:43:40.829 development firm, that could be a problem for 00:43:40.829 --> 00:43:44.760 you. But I mean, in our case, you should embrace 00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:50.699 it. It's great. You can have more of your mental 00:43:50.699 --> 00:43:55.599 energy focused on build what is innovative and 00:43:55.599 --> 00:43:58.699 not worry about how to code the smallest stuff. 00:43:59.780 --> 00:44:03.880 So I think it's great. Simple economics. You 00:44:03.880 --> 00:44:08.679 pay a developer $5 ,000, $10 ,000 a month and 00:44:08.679 --> 00:44:12.139 you pay what? If you remember now, $30 for Copilot. 00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:16.739 Right. I mean, it needs to help you once a month. 00:44:17.900 --> 00:44:20.079 We had a developer start recently on a project 00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:24.159 and he didn't have Copilot. He wasn't using Copilot. 00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:29.480 It becomes ridiculous. You have to use it because 00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:33.679 it can improve your output by, even if you say 00:44:33.679 --> 00:44:39.820 10%, suddenly $30 versus $1 ,000 kind of output. 00:44:40.099 --> 00:44:43.300 I think it's essential. It should be demanded 00:44:43.300 --> 00:44:46.800 by essentially the employer. You must use it. 00:44:47.340 --> 00:44:52.599 We have done a small test in our team. We tried 00:44:52.599 --> 00:44:58.579 to find out how much faster you are using Copilot. 00:44:59.239 --> 00:45:01.920 And I think we find out your development speed 00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:07.340 goes by 20 or 25 % faster. Something like that. 00:45:09.679 --> 00:45:15.619 That's a big, big jump. The work you've done 00:45:15.619 --> 00:45:20.639 in the past with one developer, maybe you can 00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:24.380 do it now with a part -time developer. Here's 00:45:24.380 --> 00:45:27.960 a little tip for you, Ricardo. I just switched 00:45:27.960 --> 00:45:35.360 from ChatGVT to Venice .ai, which uses a whole... 00:45:35.840 --> 00:45:39.079 uses all the big models and that servers are 00:45:39.079 --> 00:45:40.960 decentralized and can never be shut down and 00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:46.199 it doesn't track your data. And it's 50 bucks 00:45:46.199 --> 00:45:51.599 per pro for a year. A year? A year. Okay, that's 00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:57.000 very good. Yeah. And it's set up by a guy who 00:45:57.000 --> 00:45:59.679 developed the Ordinal protocol on Bitcoin. So 00:45:59.679 --> 00:46:03.719 he's a real believer in self sovereignty and 00:46:03.719 --> 00:46:08.000 kind of Anti -big government and censorship because 00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:10.500 every time you're using chat GPT for you're enabling 00:46:10.500 --> 00:46:14.159 a beast that you know, no one's short never be 00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:17.699 controlled and it's controlled by Those big companies. 00:46:17.699 --> 00:46:19.480 I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, 00:46:19.480 --> 00:46:26.099 but you know, I'm very pleased with Venice But 00:46:26.099 --> 00:46:30.059 we work in tech right we we see it happen. So 00:46:30.059 --> 00:46:33.539 I mean, I think when you're close to when you're 00:46:33.539 --> 00:46:37.340 too close to the stove, you get burnt. They do 00:46:37.340 --> 00:46:38.980 get a lot of information from us and it does 00:46:38.980 --> 00:46:41.880 get a bit scary because even medical questions 00:46:41.880 --> 00:46:44.929 that... some people ask for to check tpt and 00:46:44.929 --> 00:46:47.489 then that can actually be used to create multiple 00:46:47.489 --> 00:46:49.369 models about yourself and your personality how 00:46:49.369 --> 00:46:51.909 you think how you're gonna act and then in the 00:46:51.909 --> 00:46:53.889 future we don't know how impactful that's going 00:46:53.889 --> 00:46:56.789 to be in your day -to -day life someone can say 00:46:56.789 --> 00:46:59.349 this person because they once had i don't know 00:46:59.349 --> 00:47:01.489 a problem with their left foot they might be 00:47:01.489 --> 00:47:03.610 more prone to do something crazy and they're 00:47:03.610 --> 00:47:06.550 like how because the computer set so right it's 00:47:06.550 --> 00:47:08.530 just it gets a bit crazy and start thinking about 00:47:08.530 --> 00:47:11.559 that so isn't that good we have your records 00:47:11.559 --> 00:47:15.079 of 10 years ago on chat gpt you know that is 00:47:15.079 --> 00:47:18.599 the reason why they know that so isn't this a 00:47:18.599 --> 00:47:21.659 good thing i would say it's a good thing i've 00:47:21.659 --> 00:47:24.650 asked a lot of really bizarre questions to Chachi 00:47:24.650 --> 00:47:27.889 Petit. The latest one being, write or please 00:47:27.889 --> 00:47:31.349 add more to the song from Billy Idle, Start the 00:47:31.349 --> 00:47:32.769 Fire from the 80s. I don't know if you guys know 00:47:32.769 --> 00:47:36.210 that song. He kind of goes about all the major 00:47:36.210 --> 00:47:39.489 historical events in the US and said, just continue 00:47:39.489 --> 00:47:42.010 doing it from the 1980s onwards. And he did a 00:47:42.010 --> 00:47:44.269 very good job to be honest. So I don't want to 00:47:44.269 --> 00:47:45.909 be because of copyright or anything like that. 00:47:46.530 --> 00:47:49.090 I mean, data is a good thing, good or bad, as 00:47:49.090 --> 00:47:51.900 long as the person analyzing the data can work 00:47:51.900 --> 00:47:56.099 out the difference, but also who custodies that 00:47:56.099 --> 00:47:58.719 data is extremely important because data in the 00:47:58.719 --> 00:48:04.420 wrong hands is lethal. I guess we'd all prefer 00:48:04.420 --> 00:48:07.519 whatever data we had to be owned by Microsoft, 00:48:08.739 --> 00:48:11.739 the Chinese Communist Party probably, but I don't 00:48:11.739 --> 00:48:14.079 think there's much in that. Given that we don't 00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:19.260 live in China, but I've heard some frightening 00:48:19.260 --> 00:48:23.139 tales of lives being ruined by data being misappropriated 00:48:23.139 --> 00:48:26.119 and attributed to the wrong people. And careers 00:48:26.119 --> 00:48:30.000 ruined for that because someone made a mistake 00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:34.059 about a human made a mistake attributing data 00:48:34.059 --> 00:48:37.260 on a database to one person when it should have 00:48:37.260 --> 00:48:41.940 been somewhere else. So it's a risk that we... 00:48:42.119 --> 00:48:46.719 who run by trusting wrong people. Speaking of 00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:48.820 trusting not wrong people with right people, 00:48:49.360 --> 00:48:52.559 if people want to reach out to your team in ODevTech, 00:48:52.679 --> 00:48:56.940 how can you do so? They can get on our website 00:48:56.940 --> 00:49:01.059 odev .tech. They can reach us. They can reach 00:49:01.059 --> 00:49:05.539 me, Keenan or Rufus. I'm sure in the podcast 00:49:05.539 --> 00:49:34.909 website you have the contacts of us. This podcast 00:49:34.909 --> 00:49:38.039 is sponsored by OpenExperts .com OpenExperts 00:49:38.039 --> 00:49:40.039 is the place to go if you're looking to talk 00:49:40.039 --> 00:49:42.239 with top experts from around the world. That 00:49:42.239 --> 00:49:46.940 is open -experts .com. This podcast is also sponsored 00:49:46.940 --> 00:49:50.619 by startupnetworks .co .uk. 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