Welcome to the Innovation Conversation, a podcast
about innovators, both in business and real life.
Hosted by myself, Ricardo Rescual and Harry McCona.
This podcast is sponsored by OpenExperts .com.
OpenExperts is a place to go if you're looking
to talk with top experts from around the world.
That is Open -Experts .com. This podcast is also
sponsored by StartupNetworks .co .uk. Startup
Networks, it's an online forum where you can
find all the resources you need to learn your
startup. from grants to investors to tips and
tricks on how to be successful when you start.
Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Innovation
Conversation. Today we are joined by Chris Sayre.
Chris, welcome. Hi, how are you doing, Ricardo?
Very good, thank you. It's a pleasure having
you here. Chris, would you like to introduce
yourself to the audience, please? Sure. Basically,
I'm Chris Sayre. I've been in a go -to -market
role, sales, leading sales and marketing roles
for the last 25 years. I've had the pleasure
of working in a very broad range of engagements
across all sorts of different sectors, but primarily
in the telecoms and IT sectors, working for businesses
who essentially want to expand in EMEA and in
the US. And that broad range of companies that
I've worked for includes three startup companies,
which I'm very proud to say that two of them
have been very successful. and a whole host of
large companies, including large multinationals
like IBM, Vodafone, WPP Group. So I would summarize
myself as someone who's spent an awful lot of
time in sales and marketing, hopefully learning
a lot as I've been going. And then applying,
I guess you could say the skills learned at the
very large companies and then trying to take
that to startup companies. after a bit of funding
and taking them through a scale -up process towards
some sort of exit. I was just wondering, because
we connected before this, you're actually an
accomplished founder, so you actually have an
exit, which is something that's quite rare nowadays
to find someone who actually thinks of an exit.
How did that story go? Well, the full story of
that actually is that there were, I'd like to
say I was a full founder. I was certainly someone
who's bought in as an investor early on in a
business called Dex .io. And that was a very
exciting time. Essentially, it was, as is very
common, a sort of Scandinavian company with an
absolutely fantastic idea. At the time, that
was for web scraping services, which was very
much a new technology. When you go back six,
seven years ago in terms of It's a business amongst
usage in corporate enterprise companies for the
extraction of data from websites and putting
that into a structured format which they could
use to help them. Do that competitive intelligence
and then obviously get one step ahead of the
competition. But the case study there, if you
like, was that I'd worked previously with the
CEO, Jacob Lerigan, in Denmark many years before.
I was in my consultancy role in the UK, looking
after several clients. And he basically called
me up and said, we'd like to come and take this
technology to the UK as a next logical step from
Scandinavia, which is not that uncommon. At first
I was kind of resistant to it just mainly because
I didn't really understand what web scraping
was at the time. But once I got the concept of
that, I could see its potential. And I was brought
in to really assist with a launch in the UK marketplace
that we set up an office in London. And we set
about essentially growing that business and expanding
that business, not only actually into the UK.
but also into other countries and obviously primarily
into the US. So it started off in terms of priorities
was to get some customers on board in the UK.
And one of the things that we visited from the
learnings in Denmark was that the audience that
they were going after in the initial stages were
developers. And they were charging a low subscription
rate for access to the Dexi platform, which would
basically enable developers and other power users
to scrape data from publicly available websites
for themselves. What the key pivotal moment was
with Jacob was to switch that emphasis into an
enterprise solution whereby we basically took
a price point from a few hundred dollars a month.
to actually around forty thousand dollars paid
annually in advance for an enterprise license.
That was kind of stage one. At this point, the
enterprises are now adopting this technology
to extract data. They were very previously using
a lot of desk research and subscription to different
types of data, but this would give them a chance
to get real time data in their hands. So it was
a very exciting time. I think as part of that
transition, my involvement in that was also to
think about what's the key thing we've got to
do here. First of all, we were very lucky in
the sense that we had the best technology in
the marketplace at the time, and that was certainly
very, very helpful. But from the enterprise perspective,
I guess one of the core reasons for our success
was that we understood that the enterprises would
want the appropriate support for those services
so you know once once you're dealing with enterprises
you're going to need to have implementation people
you're going to have customer success people
you need to have teams of stakeholders on phones
to the enterprise on a regular basis understanding
the requirement dealing with any changes that
they need. and also explaining any data issues
or just basically giving them some insights into
the data. So we established ourselves very quickly
as being the enterprise supplier of choice, if
you like, with a leading edge technology. And
this led to a very rapid expansion of our success.
So, you know, I think we would start with a few
hundred thousand dollars turnover pretty much,
you know, when I got involved in the business,
we grew that to significant millions over a period
of about four or five years. And during that
course, we also then expanded with the acquisition
of a US company. So that was another exciting
stage, because if you're going to enter a new
marketplace, you know, clearly you can you can
go the route of the organic approach. Obviously,
you can also look at making an acquisition of
another company. During that time, we had an
opportunity to work with a company called Mazenda,
which was another leading data scraping provider
at the time based out of the US in Utah. We then
joined together with them. Essentially, it was
a takeover by Dexi. That then gave us an immediate
presence in the US with quite a good team of
people. And then we expanded those sales, you
know, considerably over the next couple of years,
and then got the interest of a company called
Engage3, who then purchased Dexi in 2022 for
around $30 million. So that was the journey.
And I would say the combination of that success
was first of all, as I as I hinted, we had the
We had the fortunate position of having a technology
that was new and exciting and very powerful for
retailers and brands and that's having real time
data for them to basically win against their
competition from an intelligence point of view.
I think we had the timing which was this rapid
adoption that was going on for this data so it
was a real hot cake at the time. The other one
was moving into the enterprise space and obviously
having a very powerful technology. So the combination
of those things together and the team that we
had meant we had some really rapid success. And
I think even our sales team grew to around 20
people during that time. And we'd started off
with just myself and the CEO doing the selling
back in London in 2018, 2017. So that was the
journey. Lots to talk about there, but hopefully
that gives you a good insight into what happened.
No, I mean, now I'm super curious. I'm wondering
what were the key lessons you've learned, because
that's a long journey from having a product that's
not been, that the market's not aware that it
exists. So in terms of the market, that's a challenge,
but then also growing internationally and then
acquiring other companies. I mean, what were
the key lessons there? Well, I mean, I think
we had that choice. As I say, I mean, we had
that moment where we had to decide whether or
not we were going to grow organically. In actual
fact, the lesson learned there was that we did
actually try to go organically into some new
marketplaces. And we realized actually that was
extremely costly and was going to take too much
time to be successful. So we realized As we started
our expansion process that actually the best
way was to acquire another company already present
in the market place because we just would not
be able to acquire. I'm a presence in that market
place anywhere near as quickly we wouldn't have
had the credibility you wouldn't have had the
resources and the talents on the ground so i
think there was a very there was a very big learning
curve that in terms of the approach to be taken
and we did. Initially try to just hire a couple
of key people over in the US who worked in similar
industries and grow it that way. But as I say,
we were very fortunate to team up with Mazenda
and that was extremely successful. I think that
would be one of the key lessons there. I'm wondering
how is the relationship between investors throughout
this entire journey? Were they very open to giving
more money to the company or how did that work?
Well, it's like all things isn't it once you
become successful a lot more people get interested
but actually complete hats off to the CEO Jacob
and Also, the other founder Henrik at the time
is they were it was a bootstraps situation And
there had been some initial I think minor funding
from the Danish government in the very early
stages business but they Were only very much
sort of angel funders to get to get some incubation
going various businesses and then actually we
were in a very very fortunate situation that
our sales grew so rapidly that we were able to
avoid the need for having any initial investment
through our journey right up to the point in
which we sold to engage three in fact so we other
than you know leveraging bank loans and all the
other usual sources of income or sources of revenue,
sorry, sources of lending, we didn't actually
need to go to any other third party investor.
You find there's a lot of companies in the UK
that always want to go to the US market because
it's a bigger market, it's the same language,
it just makes it a good business asset. Was it
very hard to go into the market in terms of all
the legal logistics or was it actually Whereas
you can cut that off. Classic. It's actually
the first time that actually happened on the
podcast, so I might just leave it on. So as I
was saying, was it hard to deal with all the
legal and logistics of moving to the US? Or quite
on the contrary, it's very straightforward? Well,
I think as I say, I think that the answer to
your question is that if you're going to go and
do it yourself organically, obviously you have
to go and learn the rules. And those rules are
also very depending on which part of the US you're
going into where you're going to base yourself
etc so there is a big learning curve that there
is a cost that you have to get some local legal
advice and financial contacts and all sorts of
other things and also understand a little bit
about the culture there and we know we circumvented
that particular issue by going for acquisition
at which point you're then adopting you know
a very you know, a very established situation
and existing customers already got all those
things covered. So, you know, I think my recommendation
would be that, you know, you know, ideally, you
would team up with another organization, perhaps
even think about maybe a channel to sell through
if you if you if that's something that could
work for the particular product or service that
you think you've taken to the US. But definitely
in terms of speed, I will be looking at that
route rather than you know, trying to do it yourself
and going over that it is possible, of course,
but you know, you will inevitably be hiring individuals
that will know things. And that is a possible
route, but much, much better if you can go to
an established company, because obviously, when
we think about from a sales perspective, especially
in the US, they are they want to be buying from,
you know, US type companies. with people with
US accents and all the rest of it. So I think
there are many advantages of just finding a company
which you can merge with or that you can potentially
take over. I always like to ask this question,
which is, what was the lowest moment in the company?
The moment where you guys decided you were considering
quitting and said, you know what, let's just
push forward with this. Well, I can tell you
now, there was never a moment where we thought
we were going to quit, but there were certainly
some hairy moments. And most of those moments
you can imagine for small businesses all around
your cash flow. So I think, you know, we, we,
I think, you know, as, as many, many companies,
in fact, a couple of startups have been, you
know, we've been a month away from wondering
how we're going to make payroll. Um, you know,
it's, it's, it's interesting because when you're
in a, when you're in a growth stage with a few
people at the beginning of the company, um, you
know, this is to be expected. And I think it's
part of the path, of course, basically, if you're,
um, you know, driving your own business that
things will get very tight on the money front.
But I think once you start to get through 15,
20 employees, then obviously it becomes quite
serious because a lot of those people weren't
with you right at the beginning. And making payroll,
making ends meet is probably one of the most
stressful moments that you can have, I think.
Um, so I think, you know, I wouldn't say low
points, but certainly, um, you know, biggest
challenges, because I think in our case, and
I think I would say this to any, any entrepreneur,
you know, basically, you know, you've got to
believe in your product, you've got to believe
in your, in your, in your service and what you're
trying to do. And I think that most of the successful
people will never give up on that. One obviously
assumes that you've chosen, um, you know, a disruptive.
product or service to go to market with, and
that you've done your homework in terms of your
go to market and the opportunity assessment of
how big this can be, what your strengths are,
how you're going to how you're beating the competition,
how your price points are, etc. So assuming that
those are in place, I think is a case of never
give up, but there will be challenging points.
You can say low points, maybe, but I think that
would be more of somebody who's maybe got a product
or service, and they realize that they can't
evolve quick enough, they can't expand quick
enough, or they've just simply got something
that's inferior to what's out there already.
Just wondering, when you were going through those
moments, did you have something on the back of
your mind going, you know, I got this, or I can
do this? Was there any sentence that you keep
on repeating to yourself, any mantra if you want
to call it that way? Sorry, picking up on? No,
no, like if you picked up on, I don't know, when
you're reading a book and the book gave you enough
inspiration or you call... Yeah, I mean, I will
just say, I mean, I think again, you draw on
your experience there, really. I think in our
case, you know, with my particular background,
you could say for the bit I was responsible for,
you know, you really have got the... some comfort
in terms of the experience that you've picked
up. For example, if things aren't going particularly
well, then you might revisit, have I understood
that audience as well as I could have done? Have
I asked my customers the right questions so that
if we're not seeing the traction that we expected,
that we fully understand why that might be? The
answer question is draw on the experience and
go back to your go to market kind of work streams
and the things you should be doing and test it
and basically speak to your customers. Look at
what the competition's doing and try and understand
what the macro environment is as well in the
different markets you're going into and basically
come up with the reasons. What are the reasons?
Analyze it. So I think if you've got that to
fall back on, your experience and or you know
knowledge through other people in your in your
company then you know that gives you a lot of
strength I think you know rather than feeling
helpless you're empowered because you understand
where to look for the problem if you see what
I mean. You've gone through that journey when
you now invest in other companies what are the
key things you look for? If I'm going to invest
I need to have this this and that. Number one
people. The number one is the people you're going
to team up with, right? Have they got what it
takes? Have they got the right personality? I
think that's super important. So it's true what
they say about, you know, any investor is going
to invest in the people, first and foremost,
and you really have to believe. In the vision
that the people you're working with have got
the other share the same vision as you or you
have a leader in those people and you buy into
that vision and this case i bought into the time
jacob's vision very much very very clear and
focused on what you want to do i think you've
got that's very heartening. I'm and you get swept
up in that excitement i'm number two would be.
Absolutely the product and the service, you know,
is it something the market wants now? Have you
got something that's going to disrupt it and
does it much better? I mean, you know, is that
realistic? Is that realistic? The third would
be the opportunity. So how big could this get?
You know, what is my assessment by different
marketplaces? How quickly can I get the traction
and how big? could this actually become? And
then the last one for me, in particular, is that
it's got to be scalable and repeatable as much
as possible. So I think if I look at the businesses
I've been involved in, then I'd always be looking
for an ARR, annual recurring revenue scenario.
I think there are all sorts of different models,
but that's extremely attractive with the idea
of winning a customer and then they Obviously,
stay your customer and you build on that basis.
I'm sure there'll be other models coming along,
but at the moment, I particularly like this model
because it gives you very clear work streams.
You've got your team that's growing your customers.
You've got your account managers and customer
success people that are maintaining the customers
that you've already won. I'm and you protect
your net retained revenue going forward and that
gives you great multiples if you're thinking
about exiting the business. So if you wanna get
you know even in this market you know six to
nine times your your revenue you're gonna need
that type of business i think. Combination of
those things is very attractive how do you think
the market is doing right. Is a lot of people
complain saying you know it's horrible to have
been this bad other say you know it's actually
okay. and it's actually good that it is the way
it is because the last time we had this was back
in financial crisis and that's where Uber came
along with a bunch of other companies. So it's
actually a good thing things are the way they
are. I think my assessment would be it's pretty
horrible if I'm being honest out there at the
moment. I don't think the markets are flooded
with cash. I think the investors are looking
a little bit more carefully at the businesses
that they're thinking of investing in. Definitely
they're much more, they have much higher interest
in the startup businesses being getting close
to breakeven or getting their costs under control.
And that's something that has changed over the
years. You know, before it was all about, you
know, let's get the revenue and just, you know,
just, just invest and build and we'll invest
in you. But I think now those investors are very
much looking at your ability to obviously get
going and then keep your costs under control
and you know get towards profitability or will
be heading in that trajectory in a very strong
way so i think there's a lot more nervous from
an investor point of view at the moment and you
know they want to they want to reduce their risk
that's put pressure on a lot of businesses because
you know you. Those businesses that traditionally
have been relying on a lot of investment upfront
are finding it a little bit harder to get going.
Not to say it doesn't happen, but I would say
that there's definitely a mood change amongst
investors. I think it'll absolutely come back.
Don't get me wrong, but at the moment, that's
the situation. I think the other thing is you're
probably not going to get maybe as bigger exits
at the moment that you possibly would have done
a few years ago with the conditions in the market
at the moment. So it might suit to plough on
a bit further and build revenues and then sell
at a later date, but just depends on what business
you're in. I was just wondering, going back to
your story, so you've managed to grow that company,
exit the company, and then what have you done
next? because I know you're now running two other
companies. So how did that progression? Well,
so what typically happens there is that, you
know, once you get taken over, then I'm in the
case of my, my, my two partners, who, by the
way, much bigger shareholders, they they exited
the business to do something new and exciting.
Obviously, I was involved in the sales and marketing
side of it and was a CRO. So they kept me on
during your own out period and beyond. to look
after things because you've got those existing
customers I just talked about. You have to make
sure you keep the boat steady and that you're
going to grow them and you're imparting knowledge
into the business. So in my case, that went on
for another year or so. And then, you know, now
I'm still an advisor to that business, but now
I'm out there back on my consultancy gig, again,
looking for new opportunities to either invest
in Or to work with my particular aim is to, which
I really like is basically imparting the stuff
I've learned over the last 25 years and sharing
some of those experiences with new and exciting
startups and helping them accelerate and grow
and or get themselves in shape for some sort
of exit. So I think it's great because I can
apply all those experiences It's also exciting
because you're taking a step back from from the
leadership you've been under that pressure for
five, six years. Then there's an opportunity
to start afresh and do some new and exciting
things. So yeah, so I will expect to, you know,
I am already obviously working with with some
other startup companies already. But I'm always
on the lookout for investment and, you know,
picking out one or two favorites to go all the
way. But I mean, when you look at all these opportunities
that are presented to you, what makes a difference?
I mean, you mentioned leadership, product, opportunity
and scalable business. But what really makes
you go ahead? What's the one thing you say, you
know what, I've had a feeling that this is going
to work out? What was that one element? I think
I always get that feeling, always get that feeling
from the founder, from the entrepreneur, from
the guy with the original idea. I think the passion
levels that you see that and their vision is
so you know it's so so attractive. What when
you meet those types of people that you immediately
want to invest to be part of that story i think
you know from a lot of people maybe listening
to this or being to themselves or maybe they
are one of those people i think that some. You
can tell straight away the people that will just
never give up the vision is clear. It's the logic
is very sound the expertise that they're putting
around them is also high quality so you know.
I think it's pretty much a known thing but you
know entrepreneurs should and the really successful
ones do you surround themselves with the best
talent. To succeed and let those people perform
for them rather than trying to do everything
themselves. I think that's a very important statement.
So it's the as I say the enthusiasm, the very
clear vision and also the recognition of the
talent pool that they need and the understanding
that they let those talents do their own thing
and those talents will then will then find and
bring on board. other proven and known talents
into the business and so you then get that whole
ecosystem of highly talented people hiring more
talented people and experienced people and the
organization becomes very successful. So it definitely
starts with that first person if you like in
the business and it goes from there. I was just
wondering, you mentioned finding the right talent.
are there any tips or advice you can give because
that's I've heard so many options when it comes
to hiring people some say hire slow and fire
fast others say you know actually just go super
quick at finding people so what's your approach
on this? Well I think it's a simple one I mean
obviously when you get to have as many gray hairs
in your head as I do you know a lot of people
and people's reputations you know are known so
It would definitely be first of all use your
own network people you work with or you've seen
a witness before. I think this is a good one
and then the other one will be to go through
trusted people that you know and ask them and
then you know you can also obviously. These days
a lot of tools to find to find very talented
people if you're gonna do that then you're looking
in the. you know, you've got an opportunity with
things like LinkedIn to look at that industry
across an enormous number of people. And you
can, you can, you can see from what people have
been doing, how successful they've been, and
you can locate that talent. But I think the first,
the first and foremost would be probably somebody
you've worked with previously or that is coming
to you very highly recommended from somebody
else that that's a safe bet. I always have this
question, which is, as an investor, how do you
like being approached? Because, you know, I'm
sure you get a lot of cold emails saying, hey,
would you want to give me some money to do something?
Or, I mean, how does that work? What's the best
way for you? I didn't I couldn't hear the first
part of your question. I'm really sorry about
that. Sorry, I was just wondering, as an investor,
how do you prefer being approached? What do you
think works best? I prefer for people to approach
me. I think just a very, very simple overview
of what you're trying to do. So what is your
product or your service? Why is it good? I think
definitely present something around the opportunity
size because any investor would obviously want
to see, you know, is this something that's going
to be absolutely huge or is this going to be
something that's going to be very small and short
lived? so i think you have to really highlight
that but you know if you're going to put some
stuff up in front of an investor i think you
you've got to start your overview with a kind
of a set of numbers of some sort to show them
you know what the potential of this opportunity
is and then you would also have a second if you
like high level slide which would be your vision
what is your vision of this business what does
it look like in x amount of time and what is
your strategy for achieving that Um, and then
I think on the execution side of it, I think
that can come a little bit later, but for an
initial interest, it would really be, Hey, I've
got this business. Um, it's going to grow fantastic,
repeatable revenues. We've got something that's,
you know, I guess you can say today, for example,
trendy word might be this AI enabled or something
like that. So it's, you know, it's relevant to
what's happening in the marketplace right now.
Um, and it's, it's, it's solving a need at the
end of the day. Um, you know, It's very important
that your your product or service satisfies the
marketplace and ideally bring something new and
exciting to it. So yeah, I think that would be
it. The two businesses you're really part of,
Capitan and High Books, would you like to tell
us a bit more about those? Yeah, sure. So for
High Books, you know, I just mentioned AI, actually,
funnily enough. So High Books is an accounting,
online accounting software. And you could say
boring, you know, you could go on another accounting
software and understand that. So you've got,
you know, you've got zero and you've got quick
books. You've got these other guys out there
in the marketplace who are being hugely successful.
And you see zero advertising everywhere on TV
and everything else. So is there room for another
one? And the answer is yes, there is. Because
in the case of high books, what was attractive
about being involved with that team? Is that
they do they are leveraging and large language
models to basically do some stuff that saves
your average small business user and or account
and stroke. Bookkeeper about five hours a month
of loading up things like receipts so it's using
really good technology to scan receipts load
them up do the reconciliation with the bank.
It looks at the receipt, understands what that's
for. So what was very tedious, I certainly remember
working for a lot of big companies and doing
your receipts and your expenses is a very tedious
process. This was going to solve that problem.
That was point one. Point two was it's also extremely
easy to use. And it's ideal for that very small
business user who Let me tell you, even today,
many, many businesses who are starting out are
using Excel spreadsheets to manage all these
things. And this, I think, is just a great tool
that kills that from the off. And I see that
as being very exciting. So the other thing is
there's just an enormous number of new businesses
that are forming every single year, and everybody
needs these tools. It also has potential for
lots of other marketplaces, and because of the
founders' background and connections, we've got
opportunities in Saudi Arabia and Dubai and everywhere
else, and these places are also changing their
tax situation, and this solves all those issues
for them. So basically, huge potential, leveraging
the brand new technology, solving some of the
the stuff that small businesses hate, which is
complexity, and, you know, having to have a lot
of training and stuff. So it fits, it fits a
gap in the marketplace very nicely. And then
the other business. Yep, so and then capital,
you mentioned better, which is better .com, please,
please take a look at that. This is a company
that is basically looking to change the way large
businesses are doing their software development.
Again that is also leveraging AI and automation
to basically take care of a lot of the mundane
code in software development that's point one
point two is it brings very very good visibility
for development teams that are dispersed across
the world. I'm to see what they see what they've
been developing they're able to basically leverage
if you like blocks of code. that have been written
and basically leverage that and join that to
other bits of code they're writing. But it's
very visual, very easy to plug and play with
these different blocks, saves a whole bunch of
time. And basically for businesses, that means
they can spend time innovating rather than doing
mundane code that every single bit of functionality
needs. So that one's a much more long term thing,
or at least medium term. It will get traction
and you know, but it will take time. So we're
on that journey. Chris, if people want to reach
out to you, how can you do so? If people want
to reach out to me, probably the best way to
do that is to, you can get me on LinkedIn, Chris
Sayer. I think I've come up, I think I've come
up quite high on the rankings on that. But if
you look up Chris Sayer and my consultancy is
called Marv42, M -A -R -V -4 -2. If you're wondering
where I got the name from, it's from the Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy. The robot was called Marv
and the answer to the universe is 42. So anyway,
if you look me up there, you will see my background
and you can connect to me that way. Chris, thank
you so much for that. I really appreciate it.
No problem at all. Great to speak to you today.
This podcast is also sponsored by startupnetworks
.co .uk. Startup Networks, it's an online forum
where you can find all the resources you need
to run your startup. From grants to investors
to tips and tricks on how to be successful in
your startup. This podcast is sponsored by OpenExperts
.com. OpenExperts is the place to go if you're
looking to talk with top experts from around
the world. That is Open -Experts .com.