Welcome to the Innovation Conversation, a podcast
about innovators, both in business and real life.
Hosted by myself, Ricardo Rescual and Harry McCona.
This podcast is sponsored by OpenExperts .com.
OpenExperts is a place to go if you're looking
to talk with top experts from around the world.
That is Open -Experts .com. This podcast is also
sponsored by StartupNetworks .co .uk. Startup
Networks, it's an online forum where you can
find all the resources you need to learn your
startup. from grants to investors to tips and
tricks and how to be successful when you start.
Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Innovation
Conversation. Today we are joined by Stefano
Calveti, a leadership coach and an overall great
guy. Stefano, welcome to the podcast. Thank you.
Thank you, Ricardo. I'm so happy to be here with
you. Stefano, would you like to introduce yourself
for the audience? Okay. Yes, it's going to be
long. No, just kidding. I'll cut it short. As
you say, I'm a leadership coach and I have built
my experience in leadership, not just with coaching
and training, but also with kind of 30 years
in the Navy, in the Italian Navy as an officer.
So I have had many different experiences in my
life, in war areas, in more peaceful areas, in
international stuff. political level stuff. I
was the deputy military assistant to the prime
minister and then so on and so forth. So I must
say that I'm lucky enough to have seen leadership
and experienced leadership in many, many situations.
Also, I am the co -founder of a stuffed up too.
So just to add something to my curriculum. Interesting.
Now, we actually got the opportunity to talk
a lot before this podcast. You have a very interesting
career and a very interesting life. So you started
off in the Italian Navy, right? And then you
transition over to the civilian life where you
became a coach and a leadership coach. How was
that process? I mean, how do you go from being
in charge of a ship to helping people to actually
lead the way? How does that go? Well, that's,
it was an interesting passage, you know, because
I want to say, I don't want to brag, but you
know, I had a salary that was, you know, every
month was coming, no doubt. I had a career, I
was pretty much on path to be Admiral and so
on and so forth. And yet, what I felt was kind
of this alignment between what I wanted in life
and what the Navy was going to give me. So I
felt I was not in synteny anymore with the environment,
with the people. And that's something that I
really didn't like. So I understood that I needed
a change. And talking to my wife, she pointed
out the fact that I like talking to people and
engaging with them. I like seeing people grow,
I like contributing to their growth. And so she
said, well, why don't you become a coach? And
I explored the possibility. I've learned what
being a coach means. And I said, yes, I want
to do that. And that's how I started. You know,
I have, as I mentioned, I have, I will say a
pretty wide experience on leadership. And I'm
bringing all of these with the coaching tools
The CTI is the co -active training institute
providing me. And I think it's a great match,
it's a perfect match. So that's why I started
this new activity. It's really helping others.
It's really, I love talking to especially entrepreneurs,
young entrepreneurs, people who are curious about
leadership. who are willing to prove themselves
and to become a better leader than they are,
even if they are seasoned leaders, of course,
not necessarily. Do you find a lot of similarities
between the skill set you need as a military
leader and the skill set you need as a business
leader? There are similarities. Of course, there
are similarities. The context can be completely
different, of course, in the military. It's a
very structured organization. Hierarchy is a
must. Discipline is enforced in any possible
way. Sometimes it's not a pleasant way. But there
is a law that you can bring to the business world.
And actually, for example, working under pressure,
we are used to work... under a lot of pressure.
And sometimes it's not just the deadline, the
looming deadline for an important paper. Sometimes
it's really working and having to make decisions
in a situation where, you know, whatever you
decide can be a matter of life or death. So you
are on the front line. So I would say working
under pressure in every condition, working Um,
for long times when you are deployed, you are
away from home and, uh, you work 24 seven. There
is literally, I mean, of course you sleep, but
it's just what you need to get rest. And there,
there are no holidays for sure. There are no
Sundays, there are no Christmas. You might take
an easier day if the battle rhythm allows you
that, but it's not more than that. You see working
every day. Um, it's also. kind of dealing with
people, being a team member, other than a team
leader. So the one thing that I have appreciated
of the Navy is that since day one, you are fully
merged with a lot of people, your peers, people
that work with you, you have one boss and then
there is the boss of the boss. And so you learn
how to establish relationship, create relationship.
with every each of them and if you want to have
a successful team you also learn how to build
trustful meaningful relationship with these people
i was just wondering you know what was the most
stressful situation you had in the navy i always
like to ask this story because i okay you told
me already and i'm really i'm very happy to be
able to put it again on the podcast so what was
the most stressful situation we had because a
lot of startup founders They find themselves
in quite stressful situations, but learning from
yourself how to deal with that, that'll be amazing.
I think there are a couple of defining moments
in my life. One was when I was a commanding officer
of a ship and we were deployed in the Horn of
Africa between Yemen, Somalia. It was a European
led mission to counter piracy in those waters
a few years ago. Well, we had a lot of technical
problems, engine problems, and something that,
despite the maintenance and all the good work,
was happening and it was making everything hard.
There was a lot of pressure from Rome, from the
Navy HQ, because they wanted us to be as efficient
as we could. And we were really struggling with,
I would say... I will define it as really bad
luck. A lot of things happening. It's not just
they were happening, it's the sequence of things
happening at the same time. And we also had pressure
from the European command that wanted us to be
at sea and patrolling and dealing with pirates.
We had to intervene on scenes and do things.
So there was I think was a very stressful moment
for me for the whole crew because of course is
not it was not just me and What helped me a lot?
Was to be transparent with everyone. I showed
up with all my insecurities with all my doubts
with all my oh I'm tired to them. I'm tired.
I I cannot I Showed up as a human And the reaction
that I had from, especially from, of course,
the staff that was mostly working with me, it
was the senior staff this year, was a total understanding
and support. And I remember it was actually one
day one of the officer came to me and said, I
don't know, I don't know how you can handle all
of this, all this pressure and still smile and
still keep going. And that's the thing that I
told him was like, well, because I have you,
because first of all, it's my responsibility.
I cannot just lock myself in my cabin and cry.
bang the head on the wall, I cannot do that.
I need to react. I need to react. And I have
you, you are helping me a lot. So that's, it
was, this is the team that I really look at in
my experience as the best team I ever had. Not
because they were better than anyone else, but
because of the boat we created that is unique.
And I've been on many ships. I was just wondering,
you mentioned something quite interesting which
is being transparent but also being vulnerable.
Isn't that scary as a military leader and also
as a business leader? Because we try to hide
our vulnerabilities, not show them to the world.
How does that even work? Yeah, being vulnerable
is demonized nowadays. And there is this idea
of the strong leader that is... always has the
right answer to any problem and can always make
the right decision. And we know very well, right?
I mean, you don't need to be like old. You know
that, that is not true. We are humans and we
observe humans being leaders. So living with
vulnerability can be scary. It's true that We
do not like to have a leader that doesn't have
competence and doesn't have the behavioral characteristics
that are needed to lead a team, small or big.
Of course, if you go to a person and ask for
directions, this person is like, I don't know.
And the next day, I don't know. And the third
day is, I don't know. Of course, you start losing
trust. However, if the same person say, I don't
know, but... I'm working on it and he or she
will use the tools that they have at their disposal
to bring this decision to them to make the decision
then then you will gain trust and you will see
people around you and that's what I've seen right
on the ship I've seen people around me taking
ownership and feeling and power and and they
understood that we I could not function without
them and we were a team. No one was essential,
everyone was important, not even me that was
the commanding officer. I was not essential in
the team, we were equally important. I was wondering
on that note because I know you obviously have
your coaching business and you interview also
a lot of people. What are the traits of a good
leader that you can just say, you know what,
I've always found that people who are very good
leaders, they always have these things and they're
always the same thing. Or maybe they change a
lot. I don't know. We're the ones who just point
out straight away. That's a good question because
the first... You know very well because you've
been a kind guest in my podcast. The first question
I always ask is, what is a good leader for you?
And the funny thing is in the almost 50 episodes
now, I have heard 50 definitions. I think that's
great. That's what I love. I think there are
three main characteristics in a leader. The first
one is self -awareness. You need to know who
you are. You need to know what are your strengths,
your weaknesses, what are your blind spots. You
need to know what is guiding you, what is fueling
your actions. your life purpose. You need to
know what really matters to you and what are
your values. The second thing is having a vision.
A vision means understanding where you're going
as a person, as a leader, with your team. Of
course, you need to be able also to communicate
your vision. The third characteristics is your
reference system. It's like, it's like you are
a ship at sea. You know, you know where you're
going, but if you don't have your North Star,
your GPS, you don't know how to get there. And
those are your values. And those are the things
that are important to you. And you will never
betray those values. You don't need, actually,
I will say that you don't need... It's better
not to have 100 values in your list because you're
not going to respect all of them. There is not
a magic number and I don't want to put numbers,
but you don't need 100 for sure. But those are
the things you will always look at when things
get tough. And integrity for me, for example,
is respect. And the two, the top two is respect
and creativity. That's the two things that really
I keep as reference. And there are many more,
of course. So those are the three components.
And of course, those are the three things that
will allow you to create a strategy to go from
A to B. And then the other thing you need is
the action. You need to move the first step.
With your team or alone depending how you working
but you need to move the first step Because you
can have the best strategy in front of you. Of
course, if they don't do anything, you know going
anywhere I Was I was running on something now
you mentioned that on the ship you you don't
have any breaks, right? Or do you have some breaks?
We don't you can't take a day off And a lot of
the entrepreneurs I talk to, they always tell
me they're burning out. It's a very common thing
to burn out. So what advice would you give to
people not to burn out? Because you actually
have real life experience of being in a very
stressful situation for a very long time. So
what do you tell someone don't burn out because
just managing this way? Well, that's a mistake
we all make at some point in life. You know,
you think that you have all the energy and resources
to keep going, and you keep going, and keep going,
and that's not true. So you need to create what
Stephen Colvin called, let's say, the sharpening
the soul, a system that will help you rest, not
to waste time, but to work better after. It's
a matter of being efficient. So you cannot work
24 -7, that's not true. You can do it maybe under...
particular circumstances, you can work one day,
two days in a row, like 48 hours, like crazy.
But what you will observe in any case that your,
the production level or whatever you're doing
will decrease incredibly. And to do a small thing,
you will need a lot of energy, much more than
you normally use at the beginning of this endeavor.
So sharpening the soul, taking a rest. is fundamental
for every each of us. Doesn't matter if you are
deployed in Afghanistan on a ship or you are
a startup founder. You need to take time for
you. And there are a few things you can do to
sharpen the soul. The first one is self -care.
So you need to literally sleep. There is Arianna
Huffington, she's... obsessed with that she was
because she actually there's a beautiful that
thought she held where she say we you need to
sleep through success you know you need to really
taking the time to bring your brain and body
to rest otherwise you're not gonna get there
um so sleep but also mindful being mindful meditation
can help doing some activity that will give you
pleasure beyond being a startup founder. I play
guitar, and I was playing guitar before starting
this conversation because I wanted to be in the
moment. Yay. There is a song now that I'm intrigued
by. Also, the other thing that you need to cultivate
is your social network, is your support network.
people that will help you. Being in a relationship,
I'm not talking about sentimental relationship,
but having friends, family, having peers, having
people you can confide in, those really contribute
to sharpening the soul. And they are as important
as meditation, as resting. And the other thing
is, of course, physical activity. You need to
move. I don't know how many hours you spend on
a chair. Actually, we are more creative if we
exercise and we create endorphins. There are
a few chemicals that will help us. It can be
as easy, as simple as a walk. Now there are standing
desks with those treadmills. And I was listening
to a podcast recently with Andrew Huberman, and
actually they were talking about the benefit
of those. Even if you're still there in front
of the screen, but you move. That's so... It's
a kind of win -win situation, if you want. Don't
exaggerate. You need to take your brain off the
screen and everything else, but he helps. Interesting.
I was just wondering, you know... We have all
these stories about your time in the Navy and
the transition to business. Do people ever stop
to tell you you're doing a crazy thing? Do you
ever have any naysayers? Because you're on the
path to become an admiral. Did you listen to
the naysayers? Obviously you didn't listen to
the naysayers, but how was it fighting against
those naysayers? Because I'm sure it wasn't easy,
right? Because you probably had a lot of friends
in the Navy and they probably told you, what
are you doing? Just stay in the Navy, you know,
set it for life. I would bring you my example
in this because it's, I would say it's peculiar.
I made the decision before telling anyone. The
only person I confided in was my wife and a couple
of friends. No one else knew that I was going
to leave the Navy. And the moment I actually
went to my boss and say, hey, sir, this is my
resignation, literally, I came in in the office
with the resignation letter. He looked at me
like I was telling him that, you know, that the
prime minister just died. Not so desperate, but
it was taken by surprise. And he didn't like
it at all. He made my life quite difficult for
the next three months that we worked together.
Not even more than three months. There were people
telling me, oh, what are you doing? You know,
as you mentioned, you have a career, you have
a salary, but I already made up my mind. And
I was clear on what I wanted. And that's, I think,
the suggestion that I would give really to anyone.
You need to clear really what you want from your
life. If you're thinking about changing your
career, it doesn't matter if you're from the
military, you're already in the business, you
want to change. start something new, if maybe
your own startup or joining another company.
It's what you want from your life. What is important
for you? What is the thing that you value the
most that the current occupation is not allowing
you to achieve, of course? And if it's, for example,
for me was, as I said, I felt, first of all,
I felt misaligned, disaligned from what the Navy
was giving me. And I thought at some point that
actually the Navy was holding me back. That's
the point. So for me, the freedom that I have
now and the way I can help people now is completely
different from what I was able to do earlier.
And that's why I feel fulfilled much more than
I was able to fulfill myself before. How do you
how do you know you haven't made How do you know
you're not going crazy and you're making the
right decision because there's a lot of uncertainty
when you're moving from some You know some from
some certainty in your life to a complete uncertainty
now, how do you know, you know, I'm actually
I'm not crazy I know what I'm doing and this
should be the path forward because I think that's
a lot of things that actually happen with entrepreneurs
Which is I'm gonna create my own business. Okay,
I'm gonna do this and you deal with all the naysayers
But you have this burning desire in your mind
to go and create it. How do you deal with that?
Because it's not that easy. No, it's not very
easy, Ricardo. I know you know it because you
went through transition in your life too, right?
So it's, I think it's a matter of accepting the
risks. There is no way you can foresee the future,
what's going to happen to you. What can help
is to create a kind of soft lending, as soft
as you can, a support net. You can create it
with, you know, of course, kind of putting extra
funds away in case things go wrong and give yourself
time to rebuild something else if your endeavors
don't go well. You cannot eliminate the risk,
but what you need to balance is, or you risk
in losing if you don't change, compare what you
risk doing when you change. I think that's where
you really understand what you want to do in
your life. And we are different, right? If some
people are risk adverse, and that's OK, and probably
they feel OK doing whatever they're doing, even
if it's not 100 % what they would like to do.
And that's OK. especially if you have family,
people you're responsible for, especially if
there are circumstances around you that make
the decision even more difficult or complex.
It's fine. It's completely fine. You don't have
to jump the fence absolutely 100 % and just take
the risk. It's a tolerance level. It's like pain.
Some people are more tolerant to pain, other
people are less tolerant. And if you think you
can sustain the pain, And also the pain of failing
because it's not like it's behind the corner
every day. That's fine. I was curious on something
from your wealth of experience. You just mentioned
failure and I was about to ask you because failure
in your previous position had consequences and
sometimes the consequences with someone's life.
So how do you deal with that? How do you deal
with failure and managing that? not only the
theory of failure, but actual failure when it
does happen. Failure is the best way you can
learn. You know, as simple as it is. The thing
that you have to do is, first of all, you have
to disconnect from the past. Whatever happened,
happened. There is no way in this world, in this
universe... for you to go back in time and change
things, right? So living with regrets is not
helpful, is not health, doesn't bring you health,
actually is quite harmful for your mind. So the
first thing you need to understand is that, okay,
I've done a mistake. So... And trying to change
perspective. You know, trying to, first of all,
understand what was wrong. There are lessons
that you can learn. And those lessons are invaluable.
Unless you're persistent, you will not repeat
the same mistakes. And then you need to forgive
yourself for the mistakes you've done. the consequences
that You are paying and maybe Also, someone else
unfortunately might be involved Um, it's and
this is the hard part really forgive yourself
And for to forgive yourself there are many things
you can do once again is try to meditate, you
know be in the present disconnect from the past
but also Have a support net once again, you know
people that can help you people that love you
and they want you to be healthy and will do and
tell you things to support. You need to surround,
you need to be surrounded by these people and
talk to these people to give you energy. Sometimes
you need the energy from someone else. And then
as soon as you can, you need to move on and move
the first step away from what you've done. And
there is, if I have time, and I want to tell
you one story, one small story. I never failed
like crashing a ship or failing a startup, not
yet. And I hope I would never do. But there was
one thing that really is kind of signed the person
I am today. And it happened not many years ago.
I was commanding a ship. And during a meeting,
a staff meeting, normal, we were deployed. It
was a tense period. And there was one of my collaborators
who raised his voice and it was contesting what
I just said. And it was fine. I mean, it was
not the first time that I received a negative
feedback on what I said, even if it was the commanding
officer. I never had the idea of being perfect
as we, and always right. So, but the problem
was that he was very... vocal, very loud. And
that was so, first of all, I say, everyone go
please, excuse us, we need to, and we, and this
person and I, we kept the conversation going.
The problem is that at some point something snapped
in me and I started screaming with all the voice
I had in my lungs. I think, I don't think there
was any place on the ship they could not hear
me at some point. Oh man, and then the moment
I felt I failed completely, I have disrespected
the number one value that is respect. I lacked
respect. I was not respecting him, despite he
was already harsh and surely was not respecting
me, but that's not an excuse. I completely lost
my cool. I let emotions go and take control.
And I said, that's not going to happen anymore.
But it took time for me to recover from that.
I had to forgive myself. I had to really, once
again, admit that I'm human. I made mistakes.
This was a big mistake. But you know, there's
nothing else I can do. I excused myself with
this person and we moved on. I was curious, you
mentioned an interesting story, and I was just
wondering, because you have been in war scenarios,
do you think there's ever room for someone to
act full on, you know, when you watch war movies,
there's a lot of people always screaming and
shouting and stuff like that, but they're not
screaming and shouting out of loss of control,
they're screaming and shouting of this is the
action that needs to be taken right now, right?
Do you think there's ever room for that to happen,
both in business and... in the military from
your experience? I don't think there is ever
room to scream, honestly. And I know as human,
whenever we feel like we need to affirm ourselves,
we might find a kind of companion in the volume
of our voice, but it doesn't work like that.
But yes, there are probably moments in which
you cannot be, you don't have time to listen
to um, collect more information and you need
to make a decision. Uh, and that's when urgency
emerges in those, in those situation. Uh, also
when the, the, all the team actually probably
is looking at you and they expect the one voice
from you and no one else. So I think in a very
well established team, you don't need to excuse
yourself. to do that. And naturally everyone,
as I say, is expecting you to do that. So it's
part of mutual understanding. And that's fine.
But once again, you don't need to raise your
voice. You don't need to scream. You never need
to scream to do that. It's really the wrong way
to kind of make people understand you are the
leader. Sure, you're the leader. You are the
CEO. You are the platoon commander, you're the
ship commander, whatever you are, you don't need
to scream. It doesn't make your order or your
decision stronger or better. How important is
leadership coaching for a startup company? I
think it's fundamental. And I know that maybe
start -up founder listening to this podcast,
they will probably not see that. So one thing
that we found when we created this, our start
-up was actually that many start -up failed because
of lack of leadership skills from the founders.
And leadership as a very broad term, this will
include managing the team, hiring talent. retaining
talent, having good communication skills, having
good self -awareness, having a good relationship
with the other co -founder, if there are other
co -founders. And those are reasons for Serta
to fail. It's not just the fact that you don't
have the right product for the market. It's not
just the fact that you don't have investors.
Actually, If you want to go in depth, some investors
might not give you money because they don't see
a strong leader. If you are the CEO, and the
CEO is the one talking to investors, right? If
you're the CEO and you don't show that you have
the leadership skills that are required, why
should they invest in you? You are doomed to
fail. For the same reasons, many VC even if they
invest in startups, they might decide to change
CEO at some point, especially when the startup
is growing because they feel that the CEO is
not good enough for whatever they invested in.
So I think it's fundamental, but I know because
I've been talking to a lot of startup founders,
it is not seen as a priority. You've seen like
the priorities, product market fit, the priorities,
investors, funds, and that's where they put all
their time, effort, energy, and not in themselves,
not in them as leaders. And it's hard to keep
a mirror in front of someone if they don't wanna
look at the mirror. What about when you get past
that stage? What about when you build your MVP,
you got product market fit, and then you're leading
a team? How relevant is it then? Because then
you have a team of five, 10 people, maybe. I
mean, it is as fundamental as it was earlier.
And now it's even more urgent. Now your team
is growing. Now you have a company that is gaining
traction and is scaling up, hopefully. and more
people, you want to attract talents, right? So
you need to create the right environment where
a person with the right skills feels encouraged
to join. You need that. You need to really understand
that now it's not just you working on your computer
all the time and someone else, another couple
of people working with you. Now you have five,
ten... 50 people working with you, working for
you, looking at you. What is more important than
being the right leader? Also, because you need
to understand one of the things that we struggle
with, but a lot of people struggle with is delegating.
That's another lesson learned for leaders. You
need to delegate. Now you have a technical team
and you have a financial team and you have a
marketing team, maybe. And you need to delegate
those functions, but probably you were all keeping
on your head, on your shoulders. Now you can
let it go. And that's not easy at all. I think
that's always the hardest thing is letting go
of your baby and putting it in someone else's
hands and saying, hey, now you take care of it.
And it's like, it's never going to be perfect,
is it? So what advice would you give to business
leaders, which is starting out and also what
we know in a later stage? The first advice is
really to get ready for whatever they do. And
get ready means start analyzing, analyzing is
probably the wrong word, but start exploring
who you are. And we already mentioned the importance
of self -awareness. You need to know who you
are. You need to know what you want. You need
to know how you want. things, how you want to
reach your goal. You need to know what your weaknesses
are. You need to know what is important for you
and much, much more. The second thing is, the
second strong advice is don't get your ego getting
in the way. I'm sorry. That's always the hardest
thing, isn't it? Because a lot of people that
build a business have a big strong That's fine.
It can work to a certain to some point, you know,
maybe it can it can be though the one of those
those source of energy that you have but It's
good as a proportion is not good as an obstacle
and it's hard to see when It's becoming from
an ally is becoming a supporter. So it's it's
it's a subtle shift that you need to observe.
And for example, you know, we were talking about
the product market fee. One of the problems is
that people fall in love with a product where
they're bringing, oh, look how beautiful is this.
And since they are so in love with their creation,
and that's their ego talking, right? Oh, look,
this app is perfect. They forget about the problem.
And what they fail to see is that whatever they
have created is not solving any problem, meaning
it's not going to sell. And that's because their
ego is holding the mirror, and that's the worst
person that you can have to hold the famous mirror.
Stefano, I'm sure you read a lot. What books
would you recommend to people? Which ones are
your favorite? A hundred books. No, I think there
is one that is really the cornerstone of how
I see leadership and is the seven habits for
highly successful people. I already mentioned
him. The author is Stephen Covey. It's a book
that was written 30 plus years ago, so it's not
new. But man, it's... everything that is there
is so... I would say it's not... True is a big
word still. But it's, first of all, it's doable.
It's very well explained, a lot of examples.
And I think it's the perfect manual for leaders.
in general. Another book that I highly recommend
is Start With Why by Simon Sinek. That's probably
one of those books that really help you. This
is very helpful, especially if you are a Certa
founder, you want to convey a message, right?
It's a great way. And I don't know how many other
books you want me to say. Talking about vulnerabilities,
I just actually finished there to lead by Brené
Brown is the perfect example of how vulnerability
is not something you want to hide from others
and actually is something you can in a way use
to create a strong team. I always enjoy asking
people what books they read. And I'll tell you
why, because everything up until that point can
be faked. But when I ask about the book, everyone
always gives a very honest opinion about the
book because they actually read the book. So
it comes from the heart normally. And getting
these three books, Starhood Wide, There to Lead,
and Seven Habits of Highly Successful People
is brilliant because it tells me a lot and it
also tells the audience a lot about yourself,
right? Because it's absolutely brilliant. So
if people want to reach out to you as we're nearing
the end of the podcast, how can you do so? There
are many ways. I mean, no, I think the fastest
easiest is a simple email. Stefano at master
your C dot com. Master in the sea is I took the
name from Imagine Dragons song Believer. At some
point they were they said you are the master
of your sea and that resonate a lot with me because
of the name blah blah blah. That's why. there's
a helm on my shoulders yeah my shoulders uh and
and that's that's probably the the best way or
you can you can go on the website uh mastererc
.com or you know i think that's that's probably
on linkedin of course stefano calvetti um i'm
not sure if i'm the only one but you know that's
that's i'm sure i'm the only coach if you look
for leadership coach stefano calvetti then i
should be many many many options. Wonderful.
Stefan, thank you so much for your time. I really
appreciate it. My pleasure, Ricardo. It's always
a pleasure talking to you. This podcast is also
sponsored by startupnetworks .co .uk. Startup
Networks, it's an online forum where you can
find all the resources you need to run your startup,
from grants to investors to tips and tricks on
how to be successful in your startup. This podcast
is sponsored by OpenExpert .com. OpenExperts
is the place to go if you're looking to talk
with top experts from around the world. That
is open -experts .com