WEBVTT 00:00:00.959 --> 00:00:03.560 Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Innovation 00:00:03.560 --> 00:00:06.559 Conversation. Today we are joined by Trevor Corveco, 00:00:07.139 --> 00:00:11.000 the founder and CEO of Sapien .ai. Trevor, welcome. 00:00:12.140 --> 00:00:14.660 Thank you. Trevor, would you like to tell us 00:00:14.660 --> 00:00:16.780 a bit more to our audience about yourself and 00:00:16.780 --> 00:00:18.760 all the wonderful things you're doing? Yeah, 00:00:18.820 --> 00:00:23.460 no, I've been a founder for 15 years now. I love 00:00:23.460 --> 00:00:26.940 it. started my first company just out of college 00:00:26.940 --> 00:00:30.160 back in the day and kind of got integrated into 00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:34.060 the Silicon Valley world of startups and venture 00:00:34.060 --> 00:00:37.539 capital and stuff like that. And I really got 00:00:37.539 --> 00:00:41.560 excited about crypto and Web3 kind of early on 00:00:41.560 --> 00:00:45.020 when Bitcoin was just coming on online and Ethereum. 00:00:45.159 --> 00:00:47.679 After that, I got a lot of luck along the way 00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:49.880 just being in the right place at the right time. 00:00:50.719 --> 00:00:52.460 Yeah, so I've kind of dedicated the last decade 00:00:52.700 --> 00:00:57.479 or so of my life to Web3, and it's kind of my 00:00:57.479 --> 00:01:00.679 main focus these days. Interesting. Okay, so 00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:02.380 the moment, when did you join the whole crypto 00:01:02.380 --> 00:01:04.620 thing? Because it started, what, 2011 or something 00:01:04.620 --> 00:01:06.319 like that when the big white paper came along? 00:01:07.659 --> 00:01:10.140 I think the white paper technically came out 00:01:10.140 --> 00:01:14.000 in 2008 during the financial crisis, I remember. 00:01:14.980 --> 00:01:18.200 And yeah, there was not a lot of people interested 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:23.810 for 08, 09, 2010 kind of in 2011 community started 00:01:23.810 --> 00:01:26.590 really forming once the network was up in lives 00:01:26.590 --> 00:01:28.290 and there were people figuring out how to buy 00:01:28.290 --> 00:01:30.909 it and how to think about it. But it was a certain 00:01:30.909 --> 00:01:33.670 profile of person. It was kind of more of the 00:01:33.670 --> 00:01:36.909 crypto cypher punk type folks that got excited 00:01:36.909 --> 00:01:40.790 about it early on a very libertarian bend mentality. 00:01:40.790 --> 00:01:43.590 And then as time went on, it became more of a 00:01:43.590 --> 00:01:46.609 technologist playground. So a lot of really smart 00:01:46.609 --> 00:01:48.920 engineers started looking at what you could do 00:01:48.920 --> 00:01:53.159 with blockchain and some of the new functionality 00:01:53.159 --> 00:01:55.640 it enables, like decentralized consensus and 00:01:55.640 --> 00:01:58.400 things like this that apply not just to the original 00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:02.500 use case of Bitcoin, which is money, but also 00:02:02.500 --> 00:02:05.280 to all kinds of other applications that we see 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:08.819 in the vibrant Web3 community today. Interesting. 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:11.340 Now, I know you're the co -founder of multiple 00:02:11.340 --> 00:02:14.939 companies. We often interview quite a lot of 00:02:14.939 --> 00:02:17.439 founders here. But there is a difference, right? 00:02:17.460 --> 00:02:19.139 Because all these companies are built on blockchain, 00:02:19.259 --> 00:02:21.539 so there's a whole different ecosystem where 00:02:21.539 --> 00:02:24.639 they exist. How different is it for you to launch 00:02:24.639 --> 00:02:27.139 a company in this ecosystem and then to explain 00:02:27.139 --> 00:02:29.780 it to other people exactly what you do? How do 00:02:29.780 --> 00:02:35.860 you find that journey? You know, starting a startup, 00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:39.939 there's kind of a well -established path to do 00:02:39.939 --> 00:02:42.139 that now. If you kind of follow Y Combinator, 00:02:42.539 --> 00:02:45.400 it's the correct way to start a startup. a certain 00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:48.379 kind of startup, like a venture backable startup. 00:02:48.560 --> 00:02:51.060 There's kind of a framework to do it, and you 00:02:51.060 --> 00:02:54.599 kind of follow the rules. With Web3 startups, 00:02:55.060 --> 00:02:56.699 there's kind of two parts to it. There's the 00:02:56.699 --> 00:02:59.360 similarities with Web2. There's a lot of similarities. 00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:03.379 You need to recruit good people. You need to 00:03:03.379 --> 00:03:06.900 get product market fit, et cetera. But there's 00:03:06.900 --> 00:03:11.750 also differences and nuances and benefits. Uh, 00:03:11.849 --> 00:03:13.889 there's, there's things that make it more difficult 00:03:13.889 --> 00:03:16.169 than there's things that make it easier. And, 00:03:16.289 --> 00:03:19.110 um, yeah, so there's a lot of just early stage 00:03:19.110 --> 00:03:21.069 stuff is very similar, but as you start kind 00:03:21.069 --> 00:03:25.030 of, um, you know, building a community and, and 00:03:25.030 --> 00:03:26.870 actually launching a web three company, there's 00:03:26.870 --> 00:03:29.590 a lot of kind of unique things that, um, that 00:03:29.590 --> 00:03:32.930 make it different. What, what in terms of investment? 00:03:33.050 --> 00:03:35.110 How does that look like? Like, do you get traditional 00:03:35.110 --> 00:03:38.949 investors because they, and if so, do they invest 00:03:38.949 --> 00:03:41.530 in fiat currency or they invest in Bitcoins? 00:03:41.729 --> 00:03:44.030 How does that even work? Yeah. And just to build 00:03:44.030 --> 00:03:46.449 on what I was saying earlier is that there's 00:03:46.449 --> 00:03:50.090 a tried and tested way to do it in web two startups 00:03:50.090 --> 00:03:54.169 in Silicon Valley and Y Combinator. In web three, 00:03:54.889 --> 00:03:57.930 they're forming ways to do it. Even since when 00:03:57.930 --> 00:04:00.310 I started, when I launched my first web three 00:04:00.310 --> 00:04:07.419 project. polymath in 2017 -2018. There was no 00:04:07.419 --> 00:04:10.659 roadmap. It was completely make it up as you 00:04:10.659 --> 00:04:14.759 go along and you have to be, you know, cautious 00:04:14.759 --> 00:04:16.500 because you don't want to do things the wrong 00:04:16.500 --> 00:04:18.720 way. So you kind of be extra conservative. Now, 00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:21.240 as time has gone on, there are some contours 00:04:21.240 --> 00:04:25.220 forming of like what path makes the most sense. 00:04:26.459 --> 00:04:32.199 But yeah, it's still, you know, Not as clear 00:04:32.199 --> 00:04:34.459 on how to do it But there but there are ways 00:04:34.459 --> 00:04:36.660 and if you just kind of follow the the top projects 00:04:36.660 --> 00:04:40.699 in web3 the top VC funds and how those companies 00:04:40.699 --> 00:04:43.899 go to market there is kind of a path To make 00:04:43.899 --> 00:04:46.560 it possible and in the extra effort to figure 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:48.740 it out It's worth it because there's a lot of 00:04:48.740 --> 00:04:51.720 interesting things you can do As a web3 founder 00:04:51.720 --> 00:04:54.000 or community member that you can't do in web2. 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:56.399 There's a lot more There's different kind of 00:04:56.399 --> 00:04:59.060 channels to fundraise. There's different acquisition 00:04:59.060 --> 00:05:02.899 channels to get users almost faster than ever. 00:05:03.220 --> 00:05:06.259 Some of the fastest growing companies or projects 00:05:06.259 --> 00:05:09.060 or software platforms of all time are now Web3 00:05:09.060 --> 00:05:14.459 because it's global by default. A lot of the 00:05:14.459 --> 00:05:16.500 tech is interoperable so it's kind of this big 00:05:16.500 --> 00:05:19.620 kind of Lego ecosystem where everything can connect 00:05:19.620 --> 00:05:21.319 to everyone else and you can kind of leverage 00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:24.399 other people's tech and other people's communities. 00:05:26.759 --> 00:05:28.759 And it's just getting started. A lot of value, 00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:33.000 I think, in startups accrued to Web3 companies, 00:05:33.620 --> 00:05:36.800 whereas in newer things like AI, it's still dominated 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:41.639 by big tech, all things considered. So my point 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:45.860 there is there's a lot of new things about Web3, 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:48.160 but there's a lot of great reasons why it's worth 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:52.060 the extra trouble to figure it out. So there's 00:05:52.060 --> 00:05:54.819 been a lot of conversations around how hard it 00:05:54.819 --> 00:05:56.970 is to get investment right now. you know, in 00:05:56.970 --> 00:05:59.470 a traditional startup. Have you found the same 00:05:59.470 --> 00:06:03.329 thing to be true in your side of the world, but 00:06:03.329 --> 00:06:06.910 also in your area or not so much though? Yeah, 00:06:07.290 --> 00:06:12.689 you know, I would say Web3 is kind of a Web2 00:06:12.689 --> 00:06:15.110 startup on steroids. So everything is magnified, 00:06:15.410 --> 00:06:18.290 like the cycles are magnified, the bull and bear 00:06:18.290 --> 00:06:23.720 markets are compressed and magnified. So In general, 00:06:23.939 --> 00:06:26.360 yeah, there was a big overhang from the crazy 00:06:26.360 --> 00:06:30.639 2001 days and then the subsequent kind of correction 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:34.279 and crash in some areas. And that hasn't fully 00:06:34.279 --> 00:06:36.360 recovered. There's a lot of nuances behind the 00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:37.920 scenes as to why that's the case. Like there's 00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:41.300 a lot of VC funds that are trying to extend their 00:06:41.300 --> 00:06:43.500 runway a little bit because their bosses, the 00:06:43.500 --> 00:06:46.699 limited partners have kind of tightened their 00:06:46.699 --> 00:06:49.339 belts a little bit. And that has trickled down 00:06:49.339 --> 00:06:51.920 to startups. So the cadence is a lot slower. 00:06:52.600 --> 00:06:54.860 the valuations have come down a lot. I think 00:06:54.860 --> 00:06:58.339 generally though, it's been healthy. Like the 00:06:58.339 --> 00:07:01.360 crazy bull markets I never feel comfortable in 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:03.600 because there's not a lot of signal. It's just 00:07:03.600 --> 00:07:07.180 a lot of noise. And yeah, so it's kind of a much 00:07:07.180 --> 00:07:08.879 needed correction that was needed. It flushed 00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:13.920 out a lot of excess liquidity and kind of dislocations 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:17.920 in the market that needed to be liquidated. But 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:21.810 yeah, it is still, you know, it's You need to 00:07:21.810 --> 00:07:24.529 have a lot more traction. It's better as a founder 00:07:24.529 --> 00:07:26.769 if you have a bit of a history. But if not, you 00:07:26.769 --> 00:07:29.670 just have to really kick ass in terms of being 00:07:29.670 --> 00:07:32.089 in the right market, having the right team, and 00:07:32.089 --> 00:07:34.850 having the right traction that you can go to 00:07:34.850 --> 00:07:37.170 the investors and say, hey, we've got a trajectory. 00:07:37.209 --> 00:07:39.569 It's not just a story. It's not just a slide 00:07:39.569 --> 00:07:42.029 deck. We actually have real meat on the bone 00:07:42.029 --> 00:07:45.790 here. And therefore, give us a fair offer and 00:07:45.790 --> 00:07:49.970 we can accept your money. When you get those 00:07:49.970 --> 00:07:53.829 conversations with investors, do you find that 00:07:53.829 --> 00:07:55.569 they need to be very specific? Do you need to 00:07:55.569 --> 00:07:57.430 find the right investors to even have this conversation 00:07:57.430 --> 00:07:59.089 in the first place? Do they really need to understand 00:07:59.089 --> 00:08:01.029 the ecosystem or is it something you can talk 00:08:01.029 --> 00:08:02.870 with any investor and say, hey, you know what, 00:08:03.209 --> 00:08:05.990 I will not double your money, but 10X your money? 00:08:06.990 --> 00:08:08.850 Do you need to be very specific when picking 00:08:08.850 --> 00:08:12.329 investors to talk with? Yeah, it's very important. 00:08:13.210 --> 00:08:16.949 Know who a good investor for you is. And by good, 00:08:17.069 --> 00:08:18.329 I don't just mean someone who's going to help 00:08:18.329 --> 00:08:21.790 you a lot, but someone who's actually got a mandate 00:08:21.790 --> 00:08:25.610 to invest in your type of business. So venture 00:08:25.610 --> 00:08:28.610 capitalists are not looking for lifestyle business 00:08:28.610 --> 00:08:32.350 entrepreneurs that like cashflow positively immediately. 00:08:32.990 --> 00:08:35.889 They're looking for like hyper scale winner take 00:08:35.889 --> 00:08:39.110 all markets. That's how the venture industry. 00:08:39.690 --> 00:08:42.409 works is you have like a portfolio of 20 companies 00:08:42.409 --> 00:08:45.929 and like all but three or four of them go bankrupt 00:08:45.929 --> 00:08:49.690 and then the four that do succeed are hyperscalers. 00:08:50.090 --> 00:08:53.590 And so the only way they want to talk to you 00:08:53.590 --> 00:08:57.190 is if you have some kind of a pathway to becoming 00:08:57.190 --> 00:09:00.909 one of their return the fund investment. So if 00:09:00.909 --> 00:09:05.029 you're a big ambitious idea that has a global 00:09:05.029 --> 00:09:09.500 ambition, VCs are a great place to start. If 00:09:09.500 --> 00:09:11.379 you're more of, hey, we just want to build a 00:09:11.379 --> 00:09:14.419 marketing website and sell some courses or something, 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:17.399 that's probably not a good use of time to talk 00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:20.360 to Silicon Valley VCs. They're a little more 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:22.419 like winner take all. Is this a billion dollar 00:09:22.419 --> 00:09:24.480 company within a multi -billion dollar market? 00:09:24.700 --> 00:09:27.080 Kind of minimum. That's what these VCs want to 00:09:27.080 --> 00:09:30.279 see. Trevor, I'm curious about one thing. Can 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:32.740 you tell us a bit more about Sapien? What do 00:09:32.740 --> 00:09:34.259 you guys do in Sapien? Because I think it's quite 00:09:34.259 --> 00:09:37.940 interesting. But tell people listening in, pitch 00:09:37.940 --> 00:09:42.480 yourself to the audience. Yeah, sure. So my quick 00:09:42.480 --> 00:09:45.580 background, like I said, I was early in Web 3, 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:48.759 before it was called Web 3. And then I started 00:09:48.759 --> 00:09:52.779 a project called Polymath, which I was kind of 00:09:52.779 --> 00:09:56.539 heavily involved in for five or six years. really 00:09:56.539 --> 00:09:59.620 proud of that project. We're actually doing really 00:09:59.620 --> 00:10:01.399 well now. We've kind of evolved to be more than 00:10:01.399 --> 00:10:03.720 just what we started out to be. So we have our 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:07.200 own layer one blockchain. It's called Polymesh. 00:10:07.220 --> 00:10:12.820 That's fully decentralized now. And we made a 00:10:12.820 --> 00:10:16.919 lot of progress there. We have really good traction 00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:20.480 and numbers on the protocol. But yeah, after 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:23.279 we decentralized it, I kind of moved on to a 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:26.629 new a project called Sapien, which is in the 00:10:26.629 --> 00:10:30.870 AI space. We're basically trying to really understand 00:10:30.870 --> 00:10:34.490 how humans and AI work together and how they're 00:10:34.490 --> 00:10:37.409 symbiotic to each other, especially AI needing 00:10:37.409 --> 00:10:42.509 humans. So it turns out that modern LLMs use 00:10:42.509 --> 00:10:44.450 a lot of human feedback to make their models 00:10:44.450 --> 00:10:46.230 perform as well as they do. So that could be 00:10:46.230 --> 00:10:49.490 as simple as just getting a lot of humans, millions 00:10:49.490 --> 00:10:52.980 of them even, answering questions. about data 00:10:52.980 --> 00:10:55.720 to help fine tune the data or to help structure 00:10:55.720 --> 00:10:58.259 the data before it gets trained. So you can think 00:10:58.259 --> 00:11:01.240 of it kind of like the AI data supply chain. 00:11:01.379 --> 00:11:05.240 It starts out as just raw data, just like raw 00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:07.600 crude oil or something in the ground. And then 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:09.299 you have to refine that data, you have to structure 00:11:09.299 --> 00:11:11.500 that data. And that's kind of where we're at 00:11:11.500 --> 00:11:14.360 is like taking raw data that someone else has 00:11:14.360 --> 00:11:16.899 custody of and then helping them organize it. 00:11:16.899 --> 00:11:19.919 And this actually is an important step to help 00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:23.000 make the models perform well and to be efficient, 00:11:23.879 --> 00:11:28.259 you need a lot of specific human kind of infusion 00:11:28.259 --> 00:11:31.320 into these data sets. So yeah, that's kind of 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:33.860 the data part of AI. That's how I was taught 00:11:33.860 --> 00:11:37.279 by one of my friends who's a master's student 00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:40.340 in machine learning at the University of Waterloo, 00:11:40.580 --> 00:11:43.019 which is a technical university where I'm from. 00:11:44.259 --> 00:11:47.139 He really taught me that AI is really just a 00:11:47.139 --> 00:11:48.940 couple of things. It's just data and compute. 00:11:49.210 --> 00:11:51.029 There's some algorithms that kind of tie them 00:11:51.029 --> 00:11:55.990 together. But we're in the early part of the 00:11:55.990 --> 00:11:59.769 data structuring side. So once the data is structured 00:11:59.769 --> 00:12:01.990 and ready for training, then it moves over to 00:12:01.990 --> 00:12:04.269 the compute side, which is like the GPUs and 00:12:04.269 --> 00:12:08.830 the running inference and sucking up to NVIDIA 00:12:08.830 --> 00:12:12.970 to get all the H100s as well. So that's AI. So 00:12:12.970 --> 00:12:16.669 we identified a part of AI at the beginning of 00:12:16.669 --> 00:12:22.009 that funnel. which is the human aspect of how 00:12:22.009 --> 00:12:24.929 data is created and organized. And we saw an 00:12:24.929 --> 00:12:26.590 opportunity there to do things a little bit differently. 00:12:26.629 --> 00:12:30.250 And that's what Sapien is. And who's your target 00:12:30.250 --> 00:12:32.269 audience? Who are your clients? Is it Google 00:12:32.269 --> 00:12:35.269 and chat GPT or is it actually smaller companies? 00:12:36.110 --> 00:12:38.129 Yeah, actually, we started out kind of focusing 00:12:38.129 --> 00:12:41.570 on the long tail. So going after models that 00:12:41.570 --> 00:12:43.570 are smaller. So these would be like enterprise 00:12:43.570 --> 00:12:46.240 models. Basically anything other than a large 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:49.019 language model is a long tail model now because 00:12:49.019 --> 00:12:53.399 the LLMs dominate the market so much but We've 00:12:53.399 --> 00:12:55.139 kind of also quickly moved into the high end 00:12:55.139 --> 00:12:57.600 of the market too. So we've gone after we've 00:12:57.600 --> 00:13:01.960 have 13 paying customers across like the long 00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:04.620 tail which would be like a medical vertical like 00:13:04.620 --> 00:13:07.460 we have a pancreatic cancer researcher that we've 00:13:07.460 --> 00:13:11.120 labeled data for we have a large education company 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:14.450 in Asia that is using us to label their math 00:13:14.450 --> 00:13:18.370 gtt data, which has been really fun. And we have 00:13:18.370 --> 00:13:20.350 a web three customer where we're labeling their 00:13:20.350 --> 00:13:22.710 ether scan data to help build a pricing model. 00:13:23.549 --> 00:13:25.309 So yeah, we started out with kind of these really 00:13:25.309 --> 00:13:27.190 fun, really interesting long tail customers. 00:13:27.570 --> 00:13:30.590 The reason I really like the long tail is because 00:13:30.590 --> 00:13:35.830 they need it. The big tech models are just so 00:13:35.830 --> 00:13:38.850 much better than the long tail models that it's 00:13:38.850 --> 00:13:42.049 hard for anyone to compete. And one of the reasons 00:13:42.049 --> 00:13:44.470 the big tech models are so much better is because 00:13:44.470 --> 00:13:47.950 they can afford a lot of human fine -tuning in 00:13:47.950 --> 00:13:50.169 their data and the small guys can't. So we're 00:13:50.169 --> 00:13:52.169 trying to equal the playing field a bit and help 00:13:52.169 --> 00:13:54.590 kind of close the performance gap between the 00:13:54.590 --> 00:13:56.529 little models and the big models. And one of 00:13:56.529 --> 00:13:59.690 the ways we do that is kind of by empowering 00:13:59.690 --> 00:14:03.450 and lowering the costs for anyone to be a data 00:14:03.450 --> 00:14:06.289 labeler. So the industry is technically called 00:14:06.289 --> 00:14:08.370 data labeling and there's some really big startups 00:14:08.370 --> 00:14:11.399 already. in that market that are doing a good 00:14:11.399 --> 00:14:13.559 job servicing a lot of the high end customers, 00:14:14.100 --> 00:14:16.559 but the smaller customers where we think a lot 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:18.659 of the growth is going to come from. Like I said, 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:21.039 these are like the researcher models, the open 00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:24.399 source models, the enterprise models. They need 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:28.419 humans even more like desperately than the big 00:14:28.419 --> 00:14:30.399 tech people do. So we're trying to just make 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:32.659 a platform kind of like Uber where anyone can 00:14:32.659 --> 00:14:35.480 be a data labeler, like anyone can drive. their 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:37.320 car. You don't have to be like a professional 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:39.559 taxi driver. You just need to be a human and 00:14:39.559 --> 00:14:41.799 have a car. And we're trying to do that same 00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:44.539 kind of dynamic, but for labeling where, Hey, 00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:47.200 even if you're not a professional data labeler 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:49.379 in the Philippines or whatever, you can still, 00:14:49.379 --> 00:14:52.639 um, label data for money as a, as a form of gig 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:55.620 work, but you just don't need a car to do it. 00:14:55.620 --> 00:14:57.720 You can just like literally log in on your Android 00:14:57.720 --> 00:15:01.220 phone at a bus stop and play the game for five 00:15:01.220 --> 00:15:03.460 minutes, make a little bit of side money and 00:15:03.460 --> 00:15:07.470 then just log off. Go about your day. How are 00:15:07.470 --> 00:15:10.110 you finding like, is the market super responsive? 00:15:10.429 --> 00:15:11.830 Like, are you getting, because I imagine that 00:15:11.830 --> 00:15:14.149 a lot of companies are looking at AI models now 00:15:14.149 --> 00:15:15.710 and thinking, you know, we need to implement 00:15:15.710 --> 00:15:18.029 some sort of AI, we actually need this. So how 00:15:18.029 --> 00:15:19.649 are you finding the market, Ron? People open 00:15:19.649 --> 00:15:21.389 to this idea and saying, you know what, this 00:15:21.389 --> 00:15:23.850 is exactly what you need. Or is still, there's 00:15:23.850 --> 00:15:26.470 still a lot of education that needs to happen. 00:15:26.870 --> 00:15:28.649 Because that's always the case with new technology, 00:15:28.769 --> 00:15:30.169 right? You still need to educate the market on 00:15:30.169 --> 00:15:32.690 exactly what you do, but also why they need your 00:15:32.690 --> 00:15:35.860 services. So how are you finding that? Yeah, 00:15:35.860 --> 00:15:39.000 I would say generally I've been very surprised 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:43.700 how much latent demand there is for a service 00:15:43.700 --> 00:15:46.059 like this. I've been involved in a lot of projects. 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:48.799 I found it in the past where the market doesn't 00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:52.120 exist yet and you have to like evangelize this 00:15:52.120 --> 00:15:55.299 problem and convince people they have a problem 00:15:55.299 --> 00:15:58.659 that they might not have and then it's more difficult 00:15:58.659 --> 00:16:01.340 to do that. But that's what I usually do. It's 00:16:01.340 --> 00:16:03.679 like a brand new like virtual reality or when 00:16:03.850 --> 00:16:06.769 Web3 came along. I did a security token, which 00:16:06.769 --> 00:16:10.190 was like a super early platform to do that, which 00:16:10.190 --> 00:16:12.789 is now finally becoming more mainstream. But 00:16:12.789 --> 00:16:16.570 anyways, with Sapien and data labeling, it's 00:16:16.570 --> 00:16:20.289 there. Like the demand, we're having crazy conversion 00:16:20.289 --> 00:16:22.970 rates on our outreach that I've never seen in 00:16:22.970 --> 00:16:25.350 previous stuff I've done, because there's already 00:16:25.350 --> 00:16:28.070 demand. There's already budgets. Everyone's scrambling 00:16:28.070 --> 00:16:31.470 to keep up. And everyone is like, hey, we don't 00:16:31.470 --> 00:16:35.179 want to use chat GPT. uh, we want to build our 00:16:35.179 --> 00:16:37.679 own model because we have to for various privacy 00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:42.240 reasons or for, um, you know, we need a permissioned 00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:45.139 model for regulatory reasons. So everyone's like 00:16:45.139 --> 00:16:46.960 scrambling to build their own models. Just like 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:48.559 back in the day, everyone was scrambling to build 00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:50.679 their own websites and you needed a website to 00:16:50.679 --> 00:16:52.480 even be relevant. And then it moved into like, 00:16:52.620 --> 00:16:54.580 you needed an app just to be relevant or you 00:16:54.580 --> 00:16:56.000 needed a social media account. And now it's like, 00:16:56.059 --> 00:16:58.259 you need a model. A lot of these big enterprises. 00:16:58.620 --> 00:17:00.220 I'm not saying everyone needs to build their 00:17:00.220 --> 00:17:02.519 own model and spin it up, but a lot of folks 00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:06.339 do. And again, if we want those models to work 00:17:06.339 --> 00:17:08.539 and perform well enough for your customers to 00:17:08.539 --> 00:17:12.380 use it, you need a lot of human input in your 00:17:12.380 --> 00:17:15.359 data set. So yeah, to answer your question, it's 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:17.940 been really nice to have a fertile market that's 00:17:17.940 --> 00:17:22.359 really super, like I said, the conversions are 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:24.789 really, really good. Just wondering, you know, 00:17:24.829 --> 00:17:28.430 there's a lot of talk about how dangerous AI 00:17:28.430 --> 00:17:31.849 is. Now, you're an expert in, you know, all these 00:17:31.849 --> 00:17:33.829 things. So do you think it's actually dangerous 00:17:33.829 --> 00:17:36.569 or not so much so? Actually, just change and 00:17:36.569 --> 00:17:38.950 change is always positive. There's negatives 00:17:38.950 --> 00:17:40.490 and positives, but overall, it's going to be 00:17:40.490 --> 00:17:43.009 quite good for everyone. Yeah, I wouldn't call 00:17:43.009 --> 00:17:46.349 myself the world expert or anything, but yeah, 00:17:48.349 --> 00:17:52.660 my anecdotal kind of What I'm not worried about 00:17:52.660 --> 00:17:56.319 is like the job destroying aspect of AI because 00:17:56.319 --> 00:17:59.339 just new work will be created. We just don't 00:17:59.339 --> 00:18:01.559 know exactly what it'll be, but just like every 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:04.339 technological paradigm shift, you think it's 00:18:04.339 --> 00:18:06.279 going to kill jobs, but I don't know. It looks 00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:08.819 like we have record unemployment right now in 00:18:08.819 --> 00:18:13.519 spite of all these software and job killing automations. 00:18:14.220 --> 00:18:19.609 There's less and less. unemployment. So part 00:18:19.609 --> 00:18:22.190 of that I don't buy. I think people, we should 00:18:22.190 --> 00:18:23.710 embrace this because it's going to open up a 00:18:23.710 --> 00:18:27.009 lot of new potential ways for people to be more 00:18:27.009 --> 00:18:29.289 productive. So we might not fire people, we'll 00:18:29.289 --> 00:18:31.430 just make everyone more productive and make everybody's 00:18:31.430 --> 00:18:34.309 company better and bigger and more dynamic. So 00:18:34.309 --> 00:18:36.390 that's my views on the job side of it. I think 00:18:36.390 --> 00:18:39.630 it's an economic fallacy to think that new technology 00:18:39.630 --> 00:18:44.150 is going to crash the economy or something. Secondly, 00:18:44.690 --> 00:18:46.569 on danger, you know, this is kind of like the 00:18:46.569 --> 00:18:51.349 Skynet Terminator stuff. If I had to be honest, 00:18:51.450 --> 00:18:55.930 I'd be a little more concerned about humans using 00:18:55.930 --> 00:19:00.089 that scare tactic to centralize control over 00:19:00.089 --> 00:19:05.210 AI for other reasons. I think open, transparent 00:19:05.210 --> 00:19:09.670 models, especially open source ones, are a net 00:19:09.670 --> 00:19:13.759 good. they're substantially safer than these 00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:17.259 black boxes that we see today. So my view is 00:19:17.259 --> 00:19:22.500 it's still too early to start overly regulating 00:19:22.500 --> 00:19:27.259 LLMs. They should be allowed to breathe and innovate, 00:19:27.299 --> 00:19:29.539 just like the internet was early on, just like 00:19:29.539 --> 00:19:35.579 crypto was, just like apps were. Let it evolve. 00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:37.779 Let's see all these amazing things it can do. 00:19:39.769 --> 00:19:41.609 given to special interest groups who want to 00:19:41.609 --> 00:19:44.490 make sure that they kind of control the genie 00:19:44.490 --> 00:19:47.210 themselves and not everybody can share into the 00:19:47.210 --> 00:19:50.950 benefit of it. Interesting. I always like to 00:19:50.950 --> 00:19:53.589 ask personal questions on the podcast because 00:19:53.589 --> 00:19:56.369 a lot of the mindset that's necessary for a founder 00:19:56.369 --> 00:19:59.250 in running the company, you know, it doesn't 00:19:59.250 --> 00:20:02.930 happen overnight. So what was Your hardest day 00:20:02.930 --> 00:20:04.930 when you just say no i'm gonna quit this i'm 00:20:04.930 --> 00:20:07.109 gonna find a job doing something completely different 00:20:07.109 --> 00:20:10.130 and no one's gonna call me ever again so what 00:20:10.130 --> 00:20:12.089 was the hardest thing how do you overcame that 00:20:12.089 --> 00:20:16.410 day. Like early adversity in the process i think 00:20:16.410 --> 00:20:18.470 adversity like the days where you just wanna 00:20:18.470 --> 00:20:20.789 give up how do you how do you overcome them as 00:20:20.789 --> 00:20:24.190 a founder i see ya. Yeah there's a lot of there's 00:20:24.190 --> 00:20:27.849 a lot of those days. I think for me it was just 00:20:27.849 --> 00:20:31.619 like a identity thing like i kind of. Um, if 00:20:31.619 --> 00:20:33.960 you're like a soldier, that's what you are and 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:35.680 you go to work and you're a soldier. If you're 00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:38.299 a, an athlete, you, you know, that's what you 00:20:38.299 --> 00:20:40.180 do and whatever challenges come up, that's just 00:20:40.180 --> 00:20:42.559 part of the process of, of who you are. And I 00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:45.980 decided kind of in my early twenties that I wanted 00:20:45.980 --> 00:20:48.819 to be a founder and that's kind of how I identified 00:20:48.819 --> 00:20:52.819 myself. And part of the decision of committing 00:20:52.819 --> 00:20:56.140 to being a founder is there's one, a 100 % forecast 00:20:56.140 --> 00:21:00.319 of adversity and challenges and crises. And so. 00:21:01.120 --> 00:21:03.019 For me, it's just more of like kind of a duty 00:21:03.019 --> 00:21:05.740 is just like I this is kind of who I am. This 00:21:05.740 --> 00:21:09.660 is what I do and Any any challenges you don't 00:21:09.660 --> 00:21:11.880 overthink it. You don't get emotional about it 00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:13.519 You just like hey, I just show up to work the 00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:16.220 next day and oh, you know, we'll figure it out 00:21:16.220 --> 00:21:17.799 that's kind of what being an entrepreneur is 00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:23.579 all about like Relative to you know, really hard 00:21:23.579 --> 00:21:25.380 jobs. It's not that hard, but it's pretty hard. 00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:28.160 Like it's pretty hard to do I respect founders 00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:31.059 so much. I have such a soft spot for anyone going 00:21:31.059 --> 00:21:33.880 through our times and try to empathize with them. 00:21:35.619 --> 00:21:40.500 And at the end of the day, the best founders 00:21:40.500 --> 00:21:43.519 are ones that a lot of things have to go right. 00:21:43.700 --> 00:21:46.279 You need to have the right strategy. You need 00:21:46.279 --> 00:21:48.480 to have the right timing, which there's a lot 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:52.440 of luck involved. And so I always respect anyone. 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:55.319 who's able to start and sell a company, that 00:21:55.319 --> 00:21:57.480 to me is like a huge, huge, huge achievement 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:01.039 to go the full life cycle of that. But even people 00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:03.720 who don't quite get an exit, I respect the effort. 00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:05.759 And especially when you're in a place like Silicon 00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:10.799 Valley, where I am, it's, you never know. Like 00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:15.200 anyone can rise out from anywhere at any time 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:17.980 and build a really impactful, lasting company. 00:22:18.380 --> 00:22:20.059 And it's just really fun to be in an environment 00:22:20.059 --> 00:22:22.359 like that because, you know, anyone you just 00:22:22.509 --> 00:22:24.630 randomly meet up with or hang out with or who 00:22:24.630 --> 00:22:28.309 you work for who work for you can strike hit 00:22:28.309 --> 00:22:30.349 it big with with a really exciting new company. 00:22:30.789 --> 00:22:32.569 So I don't know, I think that's the fun part. 00:22:32.650 --> 00:22:36.829 It's like, it's like a mix of a skill based game 00:22:36.829 --> 00:22:38.549 like poker, and then just going to the casino 00:22:38.549 --> 00:22:44.009 and having fun. So what advice would you give 00:22:44.009 --> 00:22:47.309 to to, you know, a young entrepreneur just getting 00:22:47.309 --> 00:22:50.049 started? Because, you know, it's a hard, like 00:22:50.049 --> 00:22:51.690 you said, but it's also fun at the same time. 00:22:51.690 --> 00:22:53.460 So What are the things you would tell them? You 00:22:53.460 --> 00:22:55.559 know what? Just follow this, you'll be okay. 00:22:56.059 --> 00:23:01.819 Who will that be? Yeah, I would say, look, figure 00:23:01.819 --> 00:23:04.440 out what you want to do. Do you want to like 00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:07.500 chew glass and build a unicorn company? Then 00:23:07.500 --> 00:23:09.619 you have to move to Silicon Valley. And that's 00:23:09.619 --> 00:23:13.099 step one as you move to San Francisco. And there's 00:23:13.099 --> 00:23:16.180 not much to talk about other than just just move 00:23:16.180 --> 00:23:18.660 there, go all in. That's where you want to be. 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:20.579 It's like if you want to be an actor. You go 00:23:20.579 --> 00:23:22.460 to LA. If you want to get into finance, you go 00:23:22.460 --> 00:23:27.099 to New York. So that's my number one piece of 00:23:27.099 --> 00:23:29.839 advice is just move to Silicon Valley. If you 00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:32.799 want to build a big impactful company, it's just 00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:36.180 objectively speaking where these companies are 00:23:36.180 --> 00:23:40.559 built. Like just look at any stat about where 00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:42.660 unicorn companies are that are tech companies. 00:23:43.380 --> 00:23:47.019 It's so ridiculously one sided to San Francisco 00:23:47.019 --> 00:23:50.569 Bay Area. It's insane. So That's step one. Step 00:23:50.569 --> 00:23:56.109 two is try to not reinvent the wheel in certain 00:23:56.109 --> 00:24:00.210 areas. Follow the path of people who have already 00:24:00.210 --> 00:24:02.490 made mistakes before you. Don't repeat those 00:24:02.490 --> 00:24:04.650 mistakes. I did a lot of that early in my career 00:24:04.650 --> 00:24:07.670 when a lot of these resources weren't as widespread 00:24:07.670 --> 00:24:10.829 as they are now in terms of Y Combinator videos 00:24:10.829 --> 00:24:13.529 on how to start a startup. That stuff is absolutely 00:24:13.529 --> 00:24:16.619 gold. like to consider myself an expert on this 00:24:16.619 --> 00:24:18.779 stuff. And I still really watch that stuff whenever 00:24:18.779 --> 00:24:20.759 I'm starting something new because it's so important. 00:24:21.259 --> 00:24:23.000 Just kind of the way to do things, the way to 00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:24.700 explain your company, the way to make your first 00:24:24.700 --> 00:24:27.279 hire and when and how to find your co -founders, 00:24:27.299 --> 00:24:30.319 like all these basic things. It's true. Some 00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:33.000 of it you can't really be taught it. You just 00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:34.579 kind of have to go and do it and make mistakes 00:24:34.579 --> 00:24:36.500 yourself. But there's smart ways to do it too, 00:24:36.599 --> 00:24:39.700 like to really do things in the right order, 00:24:40.279 --> 00:24:43.750 follow the well -established path and then You 00:24:43.750 --> 00:24:46.190 don't want to start innovating on legal structures 00:24:46.190 --> 00:24:48.230 and agreements and stuff like that. Just do it 00:24:48.230 --> 00:24:50.809 the way other folks have done it. And then just 00:24:50.809 --> 00:24:56.329 thirdly, it's all about the people. I can't emphasize 00:24:56.329 --> 00:25:00.490 how much I've learned that in the last decade. 00:25:01.009 --> 00:25:04.210 It's all people. Everything you do, especially 00:25:04.210 --> 00:25:06.829 in business, it's all people. It's all relationships. 00:25:07.250 --> 00:25:10.230 Whether that's raising money from investors, 00:25:10.890 --> 00:25:13.269 that's relationship based. That's how people 00:25:13.269 --> 00:25:15.549 give money to people they know, like, and trust. 00:25:16.230 --> 00:25:19.130 It's just a fact. And then go down the list, 00:25:19.150 --> 00:25:22.829 whether it's hiring your first team and getting 00:25:22.829 --> 00:25:26.410 the right people on the bus, that is a 100 % 00:25:26.410 --> 00:25:29.569 critical thing early on, especially. So everything's 00:25:29.569 --> 00:25:31.890 about people. You need to learn how to manage 00:25:31.890 --> 00:25:33.730 people. You need to learn how to recruit people. 00:25:33.849 --> 00:25:35.450 You need to learn how to keep them happy and 00:25:35.450 --> 00:25:39.769 engaged. And there's no way to kind of be taught 00:25:39.769 --> 00:25:43.450 that you have to Interact you have to put in 00:25:43.450 --> 00:25:46.569 the hours and the face time. There's no shortcuts 00:25:46.569 --> 00:25:48.549 to building relationships You just have to kind 00:25:48.549 --> 00:25:51.650 of do it by by always being honest by delivering 00:25:51.650 --> 00:25:55.609 Overachieving or over over delivering and under 00:25:55.609 --> 00:25:57.950 promising kind of thing And that's what's good 00:25:57.950 --> 00:25:59.869 about Silicon Valley. It's got that culture of 00:25:59.869 --> 00:26:02.250 like there's not a lot of sizzle Like no one 00:26:02.250 --> 00:26:05.650 cares about like beautifully designed What slide 00:26:05.650 --> 00:26:07.589 decks and websites and pretty language? It's 00:26:07.589 --> 00:26:09.630 just like it's about substance. It's about like 00:26:09.630 --> 00:26:13.640 doing real work and and real valuable work that's 00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:16.279 like adding value. So it's kind of that culture. 00:26:16.660 --> 00:26:18.380 Like I could sum it all up. It's like the culture 00:26:18.380 --> 00:26:21.519 of like being a founder, the culture of like 00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:24.180 being all in on something. Silicon Valley doesn't 00:26:24.180 --> 00:26:27.099 work if you're like halfway, half in, half out. 00:26:27.220 --> 00:26:30.200 You have to like, it's so competitive and it's 00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:34.640 so difficult that you really have to, and that's 00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:36.640 something kind of I did early on. It's like, 00:26:36.680 --> 00:26:38.339 you know, I kind of said, Hey, I'm burning the 00:26:38.339 --> 00:26:40.950 bridges. This is the industry I want to do. No 00:26:40.950 --> 00:26:43.410 matter what, like win, lose or draw, this is 00:26:43.410 --> 00:26:47.630 the life I've chosen. And I think all that can 00:26:47.630 --> 00:26:51.369 help me get to the ups and downs. I was just 00:26:51.369 --> 00:26:53.609 wondering, you mentioned a lot about finding 00:26:53.609 --> 00:26:55.869 resources, but also about networking and actually 00:26:55.869 --> 00:26:58.230 building your community around you. Is there 00:26:58.230 --> 00:27:00.269 a better way of doing things or a way that you 00:27:00.269 --> 00:27:02.690 know for a fact actually works super well and 00:27:02.690 --> 00:27:08.680 you can give some advice to people on? The saying 00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:12.579 is true that you're the average of the sum of 00:27:12.579 --> 00:27:16.400 the five people you hang out with most So I like 00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:19.119 this is kind of a selfish thing to say but like 00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:22.900 try to hang out with people ahead of you a bit 00:27:22.900 --> 00:27:26.819 in some ways like you want to put yourself in 00:27:26.819 --> 00:27:28.940 front of people that have been to where you want 00:27:28.940 --> 00:27:31.200 to go and like learn from them and write in their 00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:33.339 jet stream as much as possible, but just like 00:27:33.339 --> 00:27:37.939 be very judicious and particular and deliberate 00:27:37.939 --> 00:27:40.299 about how you spend your time and who you spend 00:27:40.299 --> 00:27:45.079 your time with and Yeah, to me to me that's the 00:27:45.079 --> 00:27:47.480 biggest thing and there's like little tactics 00:27:47.480 --> 00:27:50.200 like I'm pretty big on having a digital Rolodex 00:27:50.200 --> 00:27:52.619 So like everyone I meet pretty much all put in 00:27:52.619 --> 00:27:54.759 the Rolodex and have like a system to tag them 00:27:54.759 --> 00:27:56.759 and say, you know How could I learn from this 00:27:56.759 --> 00:27:59.400 person once a good time to follow up? What industry 00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:02.220 are they in? And it's good to like not only meet 00:28:02.220 --> 00:28:04.099 a lot of new people but to like have a system 00:28:04.099 --> 00:28:08.160 to like stay in touch with them But nowadays 00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:10.579 there's kind of no excuse, like everyone's more 00:28:10.579 --> 00:28:13.579 accessible than ever on social media and everyone's 00:28:13.579 --> 00:28:16.279 doing events every two seconds that you can go 00:28:16.279 --> 00:28:18.339 straight up to the people that you want to learn 00:28:18.339 --> 00:28:21.019 from or people you want to partner with or co 00:28:21.019 --> 00:28:23.460 -found a business with. And so a lot of it is 00:28:23.460 --> 00:28:27.099 just like making the decision of understanding 00:28:27.099 --> 00:28:29.519 how important your network is and then like making 00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:32.420 sure you're fostering it and nurturing it on 00:28:32.420 --> 00:28:35.940 a regular basis. Interesting. In terms of resources, 00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:39.319 you mentioned Y Combinator a lot. Is there anything 00:28:39.319 --> 00:28:41.420 else that you also think is very relevant for 00:28:41.420 --> 00:28:43.940 people to know that exists? Y Combinator is just 00:28:43.940 --> 00:28:47.880 the best for startups. It's so good. That's all 00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:50.500 you need. It's all in one place. Try to apply 00:28:50.500 --> 00:28:52.839 to get into Y Combinator as well. That's a huge 00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:55.940 signal to go through that program. It's a bit 00:28:55.940 --> 00:28:57.900 of everything. It's learning, it's fundraising 00:28:57.900 --> 00:29:01.329 and networking all tied into one thing. If you're 00:29:01.329 --> 00:29:03.849 in crypto, Y Combinator isn't like known for 00:29:03.849 --> 00:29:09.089 being a super web 3, you know, specialized accelerator. 00:29:09.990 --> 00:29:11.670 So there's a lot of other good resources like 00:29:11.670 --> 00:29:13.930 Andreessen Holowitz has a really good program 00:29:13.930 --> 00:29:16.130 for web 3 specific companies. That's kind of 00:29:16.130 --> 00:29:18.369 like the Y Combinator for web 3. It's called 00:29:18.369 --> 00:29:21.289 Crypto Startup School. So anyone interested in 00:29:21.289 --> 00:29:24.630 getting into web 3, I highly recommend you watch 00:29:24.630 --> 00:29:28.240 all of that content. It's extremely free. And 00:29:28.240 --> 00:29:29.640 then there's some other resources on YouTube. 00:29:29.779 --> 00:29:32.460 I like this channel called Finematics, I think 00:29:32.460 --> 00:29:35.680 it's called. It's cartoon overviews of taking 00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:38.660 kind of semi -complex crypto concepts and bringing 00:29:38.660 --> 00:29:41.900 it down really simply. So those are the areas 00:29:41.900 --> 00:29:44.740 that I'd start. I was just wondering, you mentioned 00:29:44.740 --> 00:29:46.960 how important it is to be in San Francisco now. 00:29:47.660 --> 00:29:49.240 Most of our artists, some of our artists was 00:29:49.240 --> 00:29:52.200 based in Europe. In terms of the crypto world, 00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:54.859 Is it still very important to be in San Francisco? 00:29:55.460 --> 00:29:58.799 Not as much. Not as much. Not as much crypto. 00:29:59.400 --> 00:30:03.779 Yeah, that's another benefit of Web3 is it's 00:30:03.779 --> 00:30:07.299 extremely, extremely global. There's no center 00:30:07.299 --> 00:30:12.059 to be in San Francisco, maybe, but still not 00:30:12.059 --> 00:30:15.740 as dominant as it is for Web2. And if you just 00:30:15.740 --> 00:30:18.000 look at the top Web3 projects and the top Web3 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:22.220 founders, ask yourself, where are they from? 00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:24.880 and where other companies based out of. And a 00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:26.900 lot of it is outside of the US. And part of that 00:30:26.900 --> 00:30:28.940 is just because of the regulatory environment. 00:30:29.140 --> 00:30:30.539 But part of it is just because there's so much 00:30:30.539 --> 00:30:35.099 talent, especially engineering talent outside 00:30:35.099 --> 00:30:38.420 of America. So that's some of the top founders 00:30:38.420 --> 00:30:41.519 in the space are from India. They're from Eastern 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:45.720 Europe. They're from Australia. And they're from 00:30:45.720 --> 00:30:48.579 Canada. That's where Vitalik's from. And a lot 00:30:48.579 --> 00:30:52.089 of those folks didn't build their massive multi 00:30:52.089 --> 00:30:55.369 -billion dollar networks Inside of Y Combinator 00:30:55.369 --> 00:30:58.150 or inside of San Francisco. So it is it is a 00:30:58.150 --> 00:31:00.049 great equalizer in that sense It's a good point 00:31:00.049 --> 00:31:03.710 that web 3 is much more global by default and 00:31:03.710 --> 00:31:06.269 then and by the way, I'm not saying You ever 00:31:06.269 --> 00:31:08.250 have to do something like there's tons of exceptions 00:31:08.250 --> 00:31:11.349 of this company built in, you know, Wisconsin 00:31:11.349 --> 00:31:16.569 or Spotify is Europe and and Skype so there's 00:31:16.569 --> 00:31:19.250 obviously like big outcomes you can do outside, 00:31:19.309 --> 00:31:22.170 but I'm just speaking if someone's young and 00:31:22.170 --> 00:31:25.089 looking to maximize their chances of big outcomes 00:31:25.089 --> 00:31:27.910 and big impacts, it's definitely San Francisco. 00:31:28.890 --> 00:31:30.410 I was running on something because we talked 00:31:30.410 --> 00:31:33.230 a lot about like having a global team. How do 00:31:33.230 --> 00:31:34.829 you manage all that? Because that's not easy, 00:31:34.950 --> 00:31:36.890 right? Everyone's coming from a different cultural 00:31:36.890 --> 00:31:39.109 background. They have different time zones. Like 00:31:39.109 --> 00:31:42.779 how do you even get started with all this? Well, 00:31:42.779 --> 00:31:45.039 if I had the answer to that I'd be a lot less 00:31:45.039 --> 00:31:49.839 of a stressed gray -haired man, but um, you know, 00:31:49.960 --> 00:31:55.559 I've I'd probably sum it up my little anecdotal 00:31:55.559 --> 00:32:00.460 feedback on this would be Front -running human 00:32:00.460 --> 00:32:05.619 teammates as much as possible. So like You can't 00:32:05.619 --> 00:32:09.259 outsource hiring your core team. You have to 00:32:09.259 --> 00:32:12.940 do it the long way you have to Do tons of reference 00:32:12.940 --> 00:32:14.759 checks. You have to ideally know these people 00:32:14.759 --> 00:32:17.079 for a long time. You have to know if your working 00:32:17.079 --> 00:32:20.619 relationships work together. And so whether it's 00:32:20.619 --> 00:32:23.160 your early co -founding team, that's your job 00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:25.359 to find your co -founders. And it's your job 00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:28.519 to get product market fit without the help of 00:32:28.519 --> 00:32:30.460 anybody else. That's what Y Combinator teaches 00:32:30.460 --> 00:32:32.799 you. Like it's the founder's job to get product 00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:35.839 market fit. And it's the same as Web3 in my view, 00:32:35.900 --> 00:32:39.700 same steps. After that, so the first part is 00:32:39.700 --> 00:32:41.940 like you got to find people that compliment you, 00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:43.940 people that are trustworthy, people have a lot 00:32:43.940 --> 00:32:45.880 of energy, people have a lot of agency, so you 00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:47.500 don't have to like manage them. They shouldn't 00:32:47.500 --> 00:32:50.160 be motivated enough. So that's your co -founding 00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:52.180 team, which your sole mission is to get product 00:32:52.180 --> 00:32:54.720 market fit with the two or three or four of you. 00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:58.380 And then part two is after you get product market 00:32:58.380 --> 00:33:02.000 fit, that's when you raise your next round. That's 00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:05.140 when you start hiring. And then to answer your 00:33:05.140 --> 00:33:07.200 question about hiring a global team, you know, 00:33:07.710 --> 00:33:11.269 it's exciting you had you can get great talent 00:33:11.269 --> 00:33:15.589 for great value and It's a it's a beautiful thing 00:33:15.589 --> 00:33:17.970 like our parents didn't have this luxury of being 00:33:17.970 --> 00:33:19.730 able to tap into a global market where you can 00:33:19.730 --> 00:33:22.250 get a top engineer for like 20 bucks an hour 00:33:22.250 --> 00:33:26.250 in some cases, it's unbelievable, but In terms 00:33:26.250 --> 00:33:29.210 of managing them, you know, it gets into the 00:33:29.210 --> 00:33:33.609 tactics. So now it's like, okay Are you micromanaging 00:33:33.609 --> 00:33:35.690 people or are you getting the best people and 00:33:35.690 --> 00:33:37.690 letting them kind of manage themselves? That's 00:33:37.690 --> 00:33:40.769 something I've always tried to improve on over 00:33:40.769 --> 00:33:44.289 the years things like asynchronous versus synchronous 00:33:44.289 --> 00:33:47.250 like is this an in -the -office type of arrangement 00:33:47.250 --> 00:33:50.630 that's a little easier to build trust If it's 00:33:50.630 --> 00:33:53.289 a remote team, obviously, it's not office -based. 00:33:53.349 --> 00:33:56.849 So how do you build a culture? How do you how 00:33:56.849 --> 00:34:00.390 do you? Oversee people is it a synchronous. So 00:34:00.390 --> 00:34:02.720 let's say you're remote You're either in person 00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:05.660 or remote or hybrid. So that's part one. Part 00:34:05.660 --> 00:34:08.480 two is if you're remote, are you synchronous 00:34:08.480 --> 00:34:10.579 remote or asynchronous? So does most communication 00:34:10.579 --> 00:34:13.739 happen in real time? Or that's kind of hard. 00:34:13.820 --> 00:34:15.980 Like if you have good people in Asia or something, 00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:18.659 the time zones don't sync up. So I think it's 00:34:18.659 --> 00:34:22.159 good to build that muscle on how to communicate 00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:23.980 asynchronously. That's what we try to do at my 00:34:23.980 --> 00:34:27.179 organizations. Put everyone on a late level playing 00:34:27.179 --> 00:34:29.820 field so people that are in the same city don't 00:34:29.820 --> 00:34:32.639 have an unfair advantage to the people who don't 00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:35.280 but It takes it's different. So now it's like 00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:37.559 a lot of making sure everything's documented 00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:41.940 making sure you know, you have a wiki to kind 00:34:41.940 --> 00:34:44.119 of update the company knowledge as things go 00:34:44.119 --> 00:34:47.019 on and And this kind of but it all comes down 00:34:47.019 --> 00:34:50.159 to like getting getting the right people on board 00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:52.360 first so it's a lot easier to spend like weeks 00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:54.239 and weeks and weeks getting the right person 00:34:54.239 --> 00:34:56.920 higher slow fire fast that's a good framework 00:34:56.920 --> 00:35:00.340 um and then once you have the right people life 00:35:00.340 --> 00:35:02.239 is good if if you don't have the right people 00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:04.079 even the best systems and the best operating 00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:07.239 procedures are uh are going to say new what about 00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:09.260 culture because when you have people remote it's 00:35:09.260 --> 00:35:12.019 always hard to tell them about the team culture 00:35:12.019 --> 00:35:14.039 and all that. So how do you manage that? How 00:35:14.039 --> 00:35:16.079 do you even try to create a culture when people 00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:18.619 are abroad all the time and they're not working 00:35:18.619 --> 00:35:20.920 in the same time zone? So how do you build that? 00:35:21.159 --> 00:35:23.760 You know, culture is a tough one and there's 00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:27.360 no silver bullet. It's really a reflection of 00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:31.239 what the company does. That's kind of like culture 00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:36.500 is not just like a slogan on the company exit 00:35:36.500 --> 00:35:40.769 sign or something. It's what you do. It's Ben 00:35:40.769 --> 00:35:43.969 Horowitz has his book on it about kind of, it's 00:35:43.969 --> 00:35:47.550 not what you say, it's what you do. So it's like 00:35:47.550 --> 00:35:52.630 building a culture of where people respond quickly. 00:35:53.050 --> 00:35:55.510 That's a cultural thing in the organization. 00:35:55.570 --> 00:35:58.150 Building a culture, like whatever, culture reflects 00:35:58.150 --> 00:36:03.530 the founders more than anything. So are the founders 00:36:03.530 --> 00:36:06.769 working long hours? Are the founders doing the 00:36:06.769 --> 00:36:10.880 dirty work? Talking to customers in person as 00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:13.420 much as possible, you know versus just doing 00:36:13.420 --> 00:36:17.639 you know research that's a cultural thing is 00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:21.480 Is a cool the quality bar like that's the founders 00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:24.480 lead by example as much as possible so if I would 00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:27.019 sum it up like it's just a reflection of the 00:36:27.019 --> 00:36:29.460 founders and it's a reflection of leadership 00:36:29.460 --> 00:36:33.280 and it's a reflection of What you do so it's 00:36:33.280 --> 00:36:35.460 it's much better. I think to have a culture emerge 00:36:35.460 --> 00:36:40.090 just based on how while you operate rather than 00:36:40.090 --> 00:36:43.329 doing a top -down approach. Although it is important 00:36:43.329 --> 00:36:46.130 to communicate what your values are as a company. 00:36:46.570 --> 00:36:49.489 But again, it's easy to say these are your values. 00:36:49.550 --> 00:36:51.750 It's a lot different to actually do them and 00:36:51.750 --> 00:36:53.510 actually act them out. And then the culture kind 00:36:53.510 --> 00:36:56.269 of re -self reinforces itself. If you bring the 00:36:56.269 --> 00:36:57.710 best people in, they don't want to work with 00:36:57.710 --> 00:37:00.110 B players. And so that's why it's so important 00:37:00.110 --> 00:37:01.869 to bring in those A players early on. Interesting. 00:37:02.070 --> 00:37:04.570 I was just curious on one thing. You've seen 00:37:04.570 --> 00:37:07.769 a lot of changes in technology. you are, you 00:37:07.769 --> 00:37:10.449 know, leading the way in a lot of very, very 00:37:10.449 --> 00:37:13.969 new technology developments. If you had a magic 00:37:13.969 --> 00:37:17.050 wand, what would you change? Like, if you had 00:37:17.050 --> 00:37:19.050 the superpower to change, you know, something, 00:37:19.070 --> 00:37:20.869 what would that be? You can't say I want to fly 00:37:20.869 --> 00:37:23.070 with our wings because that someone already said 00:37:23.070 --> 00:37:28.710 that. You know, I still I think gosh, I think 00:37:28.710 --> 00:37:32.539 having There's so many unforced errors that are 00:37:32.539 --> 00:37:35.599 so, you don't need like fancy AI or anything. 00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:39.599 It's just like the right roadmap on like, let's 00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:43.559 just talk about startups. Like so many man hours 00:37:43.559 --> 00:37:47.059 are wasted every year of people doing the wrong 00:37:47.059 --> 00:37:49.780 thing. Just like having, if I could wave my wand, 00:37:50.079 --> 00:37:54.380 like having a, maybe it is an AI, autonomous 00:37:54.380 --> 00:37:57.829 agent. It's just kind of like, Here's the path. 00:37:57.829 --> 00:38:02.789 Here's the steps. Just do things in order don't 00:38:02.789 --> 00:38:04.429 Hire a bunch of people before you have product 00:38:04.429 --> 00:38:08.110 market fit so people like I don't know how many 00:38:08.110 --> 00:38:10.409 millions of dollars is wasted doing that every 00:38:10.409 --> 00:38:12.909 second of the day, but like things like that 00:38:12.909 --> 00:38:16.130 like just like a little tool tip of saying kind 00:38:16.130 --> 00:38:18.550 of like a Y combinator in your head worth just 00:38:18.550 --> 00:38:21.889 like you should find a lead investor before getting 00:38:21.889 --> 00:38:25.159 everybody else you and Not knowing that, you're 00:38:25.159 --> 00:38:27.159 just going to waste a lot of time doing things 00:38:27.159 --> 00:38:29.579 the incorrect way. So I guess it would be like 00:38:29.579 --> 00:38:32.519 an autonomous business coach that helps you do 00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:36.219 the simple things, not necessarily the hard paradigm 00:38:36.219 --> 00:38:38.420 shifting things, but just like the simple things. 00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:40.900 I know it would have saved me a lot of time and 00:38:40.900 --> 00:38:43.739 heartache. I think it just created a new product 00:38:43.739 --> 00:38:46.039 for anyone listening. There you go, yeah, business 00:38:46.039 --> 00:38:48.119 idea alert. Trevor, if people want to reach out 00:38:48.119 --> 00:38:50.380 to you and get in touch about all the amazing 00:38:50.380 --> 00:38:53.269 things you do, how can they do so? Yeah, the 00:38:53.269 --> 00:38:56.909 website is sapien .io for any project and I'm 00:38:56.909 --> 00:38:59.809 on socials, just add my name at Trevor Caberco 00:38:59.809 --> 00:39:03.329 on different socials. Awesome. Trevor, thank 00:39:03.329 --> 00:39:04.570 you so much for your time. I really appreciate 00:39:04.570 --> 00:39:06.889 it. Thanks, Ricardo. Appreciate it, man. Thank 00:39:06.889 --> 00:39:09.030 you. All right, so let me just click stop.