WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.859 Welcome to the Innovation Conversation, a podcast 00:00:02.859 --> 00:00:05.360 about innovators, both in business and real life. 00:00:05.860 --> 00:00:08.419 Hosted by myself, Ricardo Rescual and Harry McCona. 00:00:08.619 --> 00:00:11.660 This podcast is sponsored by OpenExperts .com. 00:00:11.919 --> 00:00:14.140 OpenExperts is a place to go if you're looking 00:00:14.140 --> 00:00:16.300 to talk with top experts from around the world. 00:00:16.539 --> 00:00:20.879 That is Open -Experts .com. This podcast is also 00:00:20.879 --> 00:00:24.539 sponsored by StartupNetworks .co .uk. Startup 00:00:24.539 --> 00:00:26.820 Networks, it's an online forum where you can 00:00:26.820 --> 00:00:28.739 find all the resources you need to learn your 00:00:28.739 --> 00:00:31.449 startup. from grants to investors to tips and 00:00:31.449 --> 00:00:33.350 tricks and how to be successful you started. 00:00:35.609 --> 00:00:38.969 Today we are joined by Enrique Serrano Aparicio, 00:00:39.429 --> 00:00:45.409 founder and CEO of HackRox. Hi, and welcome to 00:00:45.409 --> 00:00:47.729 the Innovation Conversation. Today we are joined 00:00:47.729 --> 00:00:50.390 by Enrique Serrano Aparicio. Enrique, welcome. 00:00:50.950 --> 00:00:53.929 You're the founder and CEO of HackRox. Am I right? 00:00:54.329 --> 00:00:55.729 Yep. So would you like to introduce yourself 00:00:55.729 --> 00:00:57.850 to the audience, please? Sure. Thank you, Ricardo. 00:00:58.009 --> 00:01:00.729 It's great to be here with you today. And yes, 00:01:01.350 --> 00:01:02.810 the name of the company is this one actually 00:01:02.810 --> 00:01:05.489 is HackRox. So yeah, I am the founder and CEO 00:01:05.489 --> 00:01:08.250 of HackRox. I started off in the world of cybersecurity 00:01:08.250 --> 00:01:13.450 when I was 14 or even less. I was very like trying 00:01:13.450 --> 00:01:16.290 to understand how the computers were working 00:01:16.290 --> 00:01:20.250 like a lot of time ago. So I co -founded with 00:01:20.250 --> 00:01:22.549 a group of friends, Mundo Hacker. Mundo Hacker 00:01:22.549 --> 00:01:26.599 is a team or a group actually of hackers that 00:01:26.599 --> 00:01:28.599 every Friday we were hacking different stuff 00:01:28.599 --> 00:01:31.560 from 7 p .m. to 10 p .m. just for fun just to 00:01:31.560 --> 00:01:33.939 discover new stuff and always in a good way I 00:01:33.939 --> 00:01:38.459 mean not to get money not in you know not to 00:01:38.459 --> 00:01:42.579 ransom people. So the good point here is that 00:01:42.579 --> 00:01:45.299 after several years I studied IT engineering 00:01:45.299 --> 00:01:49.200 and I joined IBM. So I was in IBM around six, 00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:51.280 seven years. And the last part of my career in 00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:54.439 IBM was in the IBM ex -force command with the 00:01:54.439 --> 00:01:57.540 headquarters in Cambridge, Massachusetts. And 00:01:57.540 --> 00:02:00.340 I left and I went to Simulate. Simulate is a 00:02:00.340 --> 00:02:03.040 startup from Israel. And it was also really good 00:02:03.040 --> 00:02:05.879 fun to leave IBM, the huge company, to go to 00:02:05.879 --> 00:02:08.520 a startup in Israel. And after that, COVID came 00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:12.460 up. And during the lockdown, we made hackers. 00:02:12.950 --> 00:02:15.889 So we were like programming a platform for more 00:02:15.889 --> 00:02:18.370 than one year, more or less. And we have a cyber 00:02:18.370 --> 00:02:21.110 security training platform where you can train 00:02:21.110 --> 00:02:24.729 and you can hack different stuff, but in a practical 00:02:24.729 --> 00:02:26.969 way. So for me, it's very important that part. 00:02:27.469 --> 00:02:30.030 We, I mean, I have had, or I've been part of 00:02:30.030 --> 00:02:33.789 several shows in Spain, TV shows where we were 00:02:33.789 --> 00:02:36.009 hacking people on the street with hidden cameras 00:02:36.009 --> 00:02:38.449 and this kind of things to demonstrate that it's 00:02:38.449 --> 00:02:40.669 possible. So yeah, to conduct education and awareness 00:02:40.669 --> 00:02:43.539 always bad. The good point here is, and actually 00:02:43.539 --> 00:02:46.240 I have a TEDx talk on YouTube talking about the 00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:49.379 need of having hackers in the society. How do 00:02:49.379 --> 00:02:51.199 you know, by the way, first, how do you know 00:02:51.199 --> 00:02:53.840 that the hacker is an actual hacker? The first 00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:56.080 point. How do you demonstrate your knowledge? 00:02:56.599 --> 00:02:59.340 So with hackers it's possible. Secondly, okay, 00:02:59.500 --> 00:03:02.719 how do you trust in a hacker if the hacker was 00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:05.800 a cyber criminal before? Because for me, we have 00:03:05.800 --> 00:03:08.500 hackers and cyber criminals, both with a lot 00:03:08.500 --> 00:03:10.539 of knowledge in cyber security, but hackers for 00:03:10.650 --> 00:03:13.270 in a good way and cyber criminals in a bad way. 00:03:13.449 --> 00:03:16.030 They use it. So that's the point. How do you 00:03:16.030 --> 00:03:18.729 trust in a person who is hacker now, but you 00:03:18.729 --> 00:03:21.069 know that it's mandatory to be a cyber criminal 00:03:21.069 --> 00:03:24.590 before because if not, you don't practice. So 00:03:24.590 --> 00:03:26.789 we have created this kind of battlefield where 00:03:26.789 --> 00:03:29.229 it's possible to compete against other hackers, 00:03:29.569 --> 00:03:31.530 to demonstrate your knowledge, to learn, and 00:03:31.530 --> 00:03:33.509 always in a practical way and very important, 00:03:33.909 --> 00:03:36.849 in a legal way. So that's the key of hackers. 00:03:41.390 --> 00:03:44.409 There's a difference between, is it white hackers 00:03:44.409 --> 00:03:46.710 and black hackers? What's the terminology for 00:03:46.710 --> 00:03:51.430 that? Yeah, sometimes for me, hacker global is, 00:03:51.430 --> 00:03:53.590 hacker is good. So white hacker, black hacker, 00:03:53.849 --> 00:03:55.550 whatever. For me, hacker is good and cyber criminal 00:03:55.550 --> 00:03:57.870 is bad. But it is true that the people normally 00:03:57.870 --> 00:04:00.550 define black hacker like the bad guys and white 00:04:00.550 --> 00:04:03.009 hacker like good guys. Maybe it's related with 00:04:03.009 --> 00:04:05.610 some cybersecurity projects. Because for instance, 00:04:06.509 --> 00:04:08.949 When you have a client and the client provides 00:04:08.949 --> 00:04:13.490 you information about his infrastructure That's 00:04:13.490 --> 00:04:17.149 considered as well a white hacking or white and 00:04:17.149 --> 00:04:20.490 testing white box and texting It's black box 00:04:20.490 --> 00:04:23.029 white box the black black and white is all the 00:04:23.029 --> 00:04:25.449 time in the world of cyber security. So yes kind 00:04:25.449 --> 00:04:32.949 of I'm assuming a lot of big companies use hacker 00:04:32.949 --> 00:04:36.149 services to test the products against multiple 00:04:36.149 --> 00:04:38.110 vulnerabilities and stuff like that. How relevant 00:04:38.110 --> 00:04:40.529 is it? Yeah, I think it's very important and 00:04:40.529 --> 00:04:43.610 actually it's mandatory if you want to have some 00:04:43.610 --> 00:04:46.370 normatives or regulation. If you want to be compliant 00:04:46.370 --> 00:04:48.529 with several normatives, depending on the country. 00:04:49.110 --> 00:04:51.509 But for instance, I don't know, here in Europe 00:04:51.509 --> 00:04:54.350 or even in the US, you need to demonstrate that 00:04:54.350 --> 00:04:56.589 your infrastructure, your product, your network 00:04:56.589 --> 00:05:01.290 are secure. So you have to make at least once 00:05:01.290 --> 00:05:04.569 per year an external audit by the third company. 00:05:05.269 --> 00:05:09.250 So you have to provide this kind of, hey, agreement 00:05:09.250 --> 00:05:12.629 like, I give you my permission. So you are able 00:05:12.629 --> 00:05:14.850 to have my website, my company, my product, whatever 00:05:14.850 --> 00:05:18.490 for one month. And I'm going to be like working 00:05:18.490 --> 00:05:21.110 as usual and you're going to have to hack me. 00:05:21.110 --> 00:05:23.649 And after that, you're going to give me a report. 00:05:23.980 --> 00:05:26.740 Normally, actually two reports, one for executives 00:05:26.740 --> 00:05:29.500 and the other one with technical details. And 00:05:29.500 --> 00:05:32.339 you're going to tell me how you had me, how did 00:05:32.339 --> 00:05:37.139 you enter, you know, wherever you went, how to 00:05:37.139 --> 00:05:39.959 fix it. So with that, I'm going to demonstrate 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:42.600 with a paper that my company is safe or I have 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:44.620 this vulnerability, but now it's fixed. So please 00:05:44.620 --> 00:05:47.060 come again and check that it's correctly properly 00:05:47.060 --> 00:05:50.060 fixed again and try again. So after that, you 00:05:50.060 --> 00:05:52.879 can consider that your company's kind of secure, 00:05:52.939 --> 00:05:55.199 because we say in cybersecurity that there's 00:05:55.199 --> 00:06:00.579 nothing 100 % secure. That's very common, actually. 00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:05.540 I was just wondering, so you're from Spain, you've 00:06:05.540 --> 00:06:08.439 also been to the US a lot, and you've been living 00:06:08.439 --> 00:06:11.040 there as well, if I'm correct. How hard was it 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:13.620 to get people on board with what you're doing? 00:06:14.040 --> 00:06:17.120 As a startup founder, did you just focus on the 00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:19.600 Spanish market or you had to go elsewhere straight 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:23.100 away? No, at the end, as we are a SaaS product, 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:25.379 actually you can go to our website right now, 00:06:25.399 --> 00:06:28.620 and we have also a small B2C part of the business, 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:30.579 but it's not the focus right now, but we have 00:06:30.579 --> 00:06:33.300 more than 40 ,000 people from all over the world. 00:06:34.279 --> 00:06:36.759 Thousands and thousands. So as we are a SaaS 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:39.160 product, we are global. The marketing stuff in 00:06:39.160 --> 00:06:41.220 the beginning started in Spain. That's true at 00:06:41.220 --> 00:06:43.519 the end. Typical family and friends for investment 00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:49.079 and for clients. And after that, We tried to 00:06:49.079 --> 00:06:51.100 expand our business in the US actually, because 00:06:51.100 --> 00:06:54.420 in Latin America, we had organically clients, 00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:56.019 because at the end, I think maybe because of 00:06:56.019 --> 00:06:58.220 the language, I don't know, we have clients in 00:06:58.220 --> 00:07:02.720 Mexico, in Chile, Ecuador, I mean, in a lot of 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:05.040 countries and also in the US, by the way. So 00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:07.980 we have the product by default and from the beginning 00:07:07.980 --> 00:07:10.060 in Spanish, but also in English. I think it's 00:07:10.060 --> 00:07:12.240 very important to have a global company. So everything 00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:14.079 is by default in English and Spanish. And actually, 00:07:14.300 --> 00:07:16.100 one of the key things that we have and one of 00:07:16.100 --> 00:07:20.500 our unique values, is that our platform is actually 00:07:20.500 --> 00:07:23.680 a tool for companies. And when I say a tool is 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:25.540 that it's white label. So we put the logo of 00:07:25.540 --> 00:07:27.060 the client, the colors of the client, and the 00:07:27.060 --> 00:07:29.240 language of the clients. So we have the platform 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:31.420 translated to Portuguese as well, to Italian. 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:34.420 So it's very easy for us. We build the product 00:07:34.420 --> 00:07:36.480 from the beginning in a way that is very easy 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:39.579 to upload new languages. And that's a differentiator 00:07:39.579 --> 00:07:42.740 at the end. We go to a request for proposals, 00:07:43.100 --> 00:07:45.779 RFPs. It's very interesting that this white label 00:07:45.779 --> 00:07:49.470 part and language part is key. sometimes. How 00:07:49.470 --> 00:07:53.290 easy was it to convince people that they should 00:07:53.290 --> 00:07:57.490 invest in you coming out of Spain and going abroad? 00:07:57.850 --> 00:07:59.589 Was it easy? Was it hard? How was that journey 00:07:59.589 --> 00:08:02.790 like? No, it was really hard. When you create 00:08:02.790 --> 00:08:04.769 a company, one of the things that you discover 00:08:04.769 --> 00:08:07.769 in the beginning, I think, is the people. In 00:08:07.769 --> 00:08:09.129 the beginning, actually, this company is very 00:08:09.129 --> 00:08:12.329 technical. I was thinking that the most complicated 00:08:12.329 --> 00:08:15.129 issue that I was going to have was the technology. 00:08:15.919 --> 00:08:18.459 servers, infrastructure, etc. But no. I think 00:08:18.459 --> 00:08:20.360 the most complicated thing you have to manage 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:24.319 is the people. And for different reasons. The 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:27.819 first one is to attract talent. How do you make 00:08:27.819 --> 00:08:30.660 that a guy that is working, I don't know, in 00:08:30.660 --> 00:08:33.679 HP, in IBM, like me in the beginning. Actually, 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:37.620 Simulate made this with me. I left IBM and I 00:08:37.620 --> 00:08:39.320 went to Simulate. I was then playing number 20 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:42.100 or something. So how is that possible? I think 00:08:42.100 --> 00:08:44.399 you have to offer an incredible product. You 00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:46.860 could I mean, I was felt in love with the product 00:08:46.860 --> 00:08:49.679 of Simulate. Also with the team, the founders 00:08:49.679 --> 00:08:54.340 is important. How do you manage the people? I 00:08:54.340 --> 00:08:56.700 have some employees that came from a big company 00:08:56.700 --> 00:08:58.519 and they are saying to me that now they are living 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:00.179 much better because at the end they are like 00:09:00.179 --> 00:09:02.440 their own bosses because in a startup you have 00:09:02.440 --> 00:09:05.059 to manage your task very well. I mean, I cannot 00:09:05.059 --> 00:09:08.360 be chasing people. I need you to be autonomous. 00:09:09.240 --> 00:09:12.980 If this has to be done on Friday, I expect that. 00:09:13.019 --> 00:09:15.240 I'm not going to ask you on Thursday. Like, hey, 00:09:15.580 --> 00:09:18.019 how are you doing? No, chasing, chasing. So that's 00:09:18.019 --> 00:09:19.379 different. In the big companies, that's very 00:09:19.379 --> 00:09:22.220 common. So I think you have to make the people 00:09:22.220 --> 00:09:25.440 happy to be with you. The product has to be good 00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:27.379 as well. Because if they are going to work and 00:09:27.379 --> 00:09:29.600 sell something very new, something innovative, 00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:33.480 it has to be for real. And the other part is 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:36.840 how to retain talent. Because sometimes it's 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:38.559 complicated. When you come from a big company, 00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:41.879 it's complicated to adapt yourself. to the daily 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:44.600 basis of an startup. It's really complicated. 00:09:44.779 --> 00:09:47.279 Actually, I have had some people in my company 00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:49.820 that didn't fit very well because of this, because 00:09:49.820 --> 00:09:56.720 they used to use processes, approvals, these 00:09:56.720 --> 00:09:59.440 kind of big company things. So once you're in 00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:01.179 a startup and you discover that you are your 00:10:01.179 --> 00:10:03.720 own manager, you have to manage your time, your 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:06.279 tasks, everything, sometimes it's not good for 00:10:06.279 --> 00:10:08.879 everybody. I think you have to have that kind 00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:12.200 of mindset. Yeah, the mindset, yeah. It's funny 00:10:12.200 --> 00:10:14.480 because a lot of people, especially with this, 00:10:15.080 --> 00:10:16.899 a lot of people kind of struggle with that, just 00:10:16.899 --> 00:10:20.299 like you said, which is how do I manage myself 00:10:20.299 --> 00:10:22.220 and my time in the startup? It's not for everyone, 00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:24.299 right? And you do find a lot of people like that. 00:10:24.500 --> 00:10:26.460 And maybe it's okay if they don't make the jump, 00:10:26.519 --> 00:10:29.000 even though they're very high qualified in the 00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:31.659 state where they are. How do you deal with this 00:10:31.659 --> 00:10:33.820 uncertainty? Because there's a lot of uncertainty 00:10:33.820 --> 00:10:35.279 with building a business. How do you deal with 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:39.120 that? Yeah, first of all, as a founder, You have 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:43.620 to be very alone. You have co -founders, you 00:10:43.620 --> 00:10:46.919 have friends, I mean, someone to talk about this. 00:10:47.059 --> 00:10:49.960 But if not, if you're an only founder, sometimes 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:52.759 you have to be... I don't want to say quiet, 00:10:52.840 --> 00:10:54.779 but you have to manage very well the information 00:10:54.779 --> 00:10:57.500 that you transmit to your team. Because there 00:10:57.500 --> 00:11:00.720 are several times in the life of an entrepreneur, 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:02.600 and I think this is a standard for everybody, 00:11:03.139 --> 00:11:05.220 that the cash in the bank is going to be very 00:11:05.220 --> 00:11:08.120 low. Maybe next month is huge. Maybe the next 00:11:08.120 --> 00:11:12.820 month is again low. But at the end, that's very 00:11:12.820 --> 00:11:15.500 hard to manage. Because you see the bank, you 00:11:15.500 --> 00:11:17.740 see there's no money there. And this client has 00:11:17.740 --> 00:11:19.879 to pay tomorrow. If this client doesn't pay, 00:11:20.139 --> 00:11:21.679 we're going to have an issue. And maybe the client 00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:25.700 is not going to pay because of maybe the guy 00:11:25.700 --> 00:11:28.279 who pressed the button is sick that day. I mean, 00:11:28.419 --> 00:11:30.419 something you have to manage a lot of things 00:11:30.419 --> 00:11:34.139 that don't depend on you. And you cannot transmit 00:11:34.139 --> 00:11:36.259 that stress to the team. I think that's very 00:11:36.259 --> 00:11:39.679 important. And that's one of the tricky parts 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:41.179 that I have to manage every day, because this 00:11:41.179 --> 00:11:42.759 is every day, actually. Every week or every day 00:11:42.759 --> 00:11:44.440 in a startup is different. And you cannot transmit 00:11:44.440 --> 00:11:46.559 this stress to the team, because if not, the 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:48.320 team is going to explode. Because I'm exploding 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:56.080 sometimes. How can I manage this situation? So 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:58.440 at the end, you manage it. But it's true that 00:11:58.440 --> 00:12:01.399 it's very complicated. And actually, nobody told 00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:03.580 me this in the beginning. Everybody was saying 00:12:03.580 --> 00:12:06.789 to me, Startup is great. It's great to be an 00:12:06.789 --> 00:12:08.110 entrepreneur. Everything's going to be great. 00:12:08.210 --> 00:12:10.070 You're going to be your own manager. That's true, 00:12:10.169 --> 00:12:13.750 but there are a lot of parts that you don't see 00:12:13.750 --> 00:12:16.169 on a daily basis, and it's very hard sometimes. 00:12:16.590 --> 00:12:19.009 At the end, for me, if you see the final result, 00:12:19.190 --> 00:12:21.529 I like it, and I love to be an entrepreneur, 00:12:21.590 --> 00:12:24.519 and I think it's worth it. But... It's not that 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:26.879 easy that it looks when you see this kind of 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:28.840 great companies, billion companies. It's not 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:30.940 that easy. And you have to manage a lot of stress, 00:12:31.220 --> 00:12:35.059 your family, your employees. If you have 10 employees, 00:12:35.620 --> 00:12:38.120 probably these guys, every single one has something 00:12:38.120 --> 00:12:41.039 bad in his house or they need more salary next 00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:43.500 month. So you have to manage a lot of stuff that 00:12:43.500 --> 00:12:46.080 I didn't expect when I was creating a hacker's 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:51.139 tool. I'm wondering on the tool itself. I mean, 00:12:51.940 --> 00:12:55.809 are you... Did you ever got to know how people 00:12:55.809 --> 00:12:58.549 often talk about North Korea and how to have 00:12:58.549 --> 00:13:01.549 hackers and China and all these big state players? 00:13:02.590 --> 00:13:04.909 How are you finding this? Do you think it's a 00:13:04.909 --> 00:13:08.250 big thing and we should be worried about it or 00:13:08.250 --> 00:13:11.250 actually it's going to be okay because companies 00:13:11.250 --> 00:13:14.350 nowadays, they're using tools like your own and 00:13:14.350 --> 00:13:16.350 building enough resources to prevent that from 00:13:16.350 --> 00:13:18.990 happening? No, I think we have to be worried 00:13:18.990 --> 00:13:21.809 actually because we don't see it but it's there. 00:13:21.899 --> 00:13:26.000 And when we have a war, probably this war started 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:30.120 before in a digital world. And probably right 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:32.480 now there are a lot of wars happening and we 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:35.279 don't know it because they are online only. So 00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:38.480 yes, and I cannot talk, I mean, I cannot say 00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:40.980 a lot of details, but I have seen several bad 00:13:40.980 --> 00:13:43.919 situations because of this kind of spy things, 00:13:44.460 --> 00:13:46.399 spying things, sorry, related with these Asia 00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:50.440 countries. So yes, I've seen, I personally... 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:52.779 have seen these these kind of things and it's 00:13:52.779 --> 00:13:55.539 happening it's happening all the time actually 00:13:55.539 --> 00:13:57.740 if you create a server right now on a website 00:13:57.740 --> 00:13:59.440 imagine you create a server right now and you 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:03.379 put different softwares for remote desktop and 00:14:03.379 --> 00:14:06.159 you put the password 1234 i made the test and 00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:08.960 in less than one second my mouse was moving automatically 00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:13.620 alone in theory and only one minute took because 00:14:13.620 --> 00:14:15.700 from normal information they are scanning the 00:14:15.700 --> 00:14:18.049 network all the time new IP address. Let's see 00:14:18.049 --> 00:14:19.950 what can we do there, what information we can 00:14:19.950 --> 00:14:22.429 get. So that's happening, but in both ways. I 00:14:22.429 --> 00:14:24.490 mean, this is the world right now. This is the 00:14:24.490 --> 00:14:26.490 world where we are living. And what we are doing 00:14:26.490 --> 00:14:30.149 in Hagros is not, we are not a firewall. We are 00:14:30.149 --> 00:14:32.730 not an antivirus. We are a platform to train 00:14:32.730 --> 00:14:35.669 your technical people because, you know, it's 00:14:35.669 --> 00:14:37.549 very common to see it's very important conduct 00:14:37.549 --> 00:14:39.610 education and awareness in cybersecurity. Don't 00:14:39.610 --> 00:14:42.529 open this email. Be careful with these ransomware. 00:14:42.730 --> 00:14:44.889 That's great. And even if you do it, the people 00:14:44.889 --> 00:14:48.909 are still open. But what about the technical 00:14:48.909 --> 00:14:51.769 people? Because we are assuming that the developers 00:14:51.769 --> 00:14:54.590 are experts in everything. So, for instance, 00:14:54.789 --> 00:14:56.309 clients of HackRocks, we have, for instance, 00:14:56.509 --> 00:14:59.070 one client with 300 developers. And they said 00:14:59.070 --> 00:15:01.870 to me, the CISO, the Chief Information Security 00:15:01.870 --> 00:15:04.629 Officer, said to me, I want to make with HackRocks 00:15:04.629 --> 00:15:07.789 different scenarios. And periodically, I want 00:15:07.789 --> 00:15:11.210 to make my developers to hack stuff really similar, 00:15:11.470 --> 00:15:13.649 very similar to the one that we have in our company. 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:15.519 Because once you know how to attack, you know 00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:18.440 how to defend. So we are creating virtual scenarios 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:20.200 with the latest vulnerabilities that are coming 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:24.460 up every day. So with that, you can exploit those 00:15:24.460 --> 00:15:27.639 vulnerabilities and you know how to defend yourself 00:15:27.639 --> 00:15:31.620 against them. How important is it to keep up 00:15:31.620 --> 00:15:33.580 to date with all these things? Of course, we 00:15:33.580 --> 00:15:35.639 know the basics, which is always have the software 00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:38.000 up to date and stuff like that. But is that a 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:40.620 foolproof way of not being hacked or you actually 00:15:40.620 --> 00:15:43.139 need to invest a lot more? to fix that type of 00:15:43.139 --> 00:15:46.840 issues. No, no, no. Even if you invest a lot 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:48.639 of money in cybersecurity, you could be hacked 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:51.600 tomorrow. I mean, and actually, there is one 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:56.759 thing that's a bit weird, but maybe right now 00:15:56.759 --> 00:16:01.100 you are being hacked. I mean, right now. But 00:16:01.100 --> 00:16:02.639 you don't know it, and maybe you're going to 00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:04.860 know this in three years or 10 years. Do you 00:16:04.860 --> 00:16:07.860 know the vulnerability that was called heartbleed? 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:10.220 No, but tell me more about it. I'm not going 00:16:10.220 --> 00:16:12.179 to go deeper in technical details, but the interesting 00:16:12.179 --> 00:16:15.620 point of this vulnerability is that it was discovered, 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:18.159 imagine, I don't remember the year, but imagine 00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:21.559 2020. And they discovered that 10 years before 00:16:21.559 --> 00:16:25.539 2010, it was like published or that happened 00:16:25.539 --> 00:16:28.360 for the first time. So during those 10 years, 00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:30.720 the cyber criminals were using that to hack a 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:33.860 lot of passwords, a lot of servers, a lot of 00:16:33.860 --> 00:16:36.059 stuff. So the point is, what are we going to 00:16:36.059 --> 00:16:39.779 discover in 10 years? that were vulnerable today. 00:16:41.779 --> 00:16:44.639 On that note, I got a question for you. We hear 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:47.500 a lot of things about quantum computers and how 00:16:47.500 --> 00:16:51.100 it's going to revolutionize the way that we process 00:16:51.100 --> 00:16:54.279 information, but above all that we create passwords. 00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:57.740 How impactful is that going to be? A lot, yeah. 00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:00.340 Yeah, a lot. And I'm glad that you make this 00:17:00.340 --> 00:17:01.960 question because for me it's very important and 00:17:01.960 --> 00:17:04.519 the people sometimes don't think about this because... 00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:07.579 I was in front of this quantum computer of IBM 00:17:07.579 --> 00:17:11.319 in Switzerland, in Zurich. Is Watson the name 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:15.000 of the company? Yeah. Watson is the artificial 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:18.380 intelligence of IBM and they have quantum, IBM 00:17:18.380 --> 00:17:21.480 quantum. So I was in front of the quantum computer 00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:24.200 in Switzerland, in Zurich. It was incredible, 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:27.279 like in front of me. Everybody wearing white 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:30.160 with a lot of careful because you know the temperature 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:31.680 is very important for these kind of computers. 00:17:32.859 --> 00:17:35.000 Yeah, I was wondering this, and I was making 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:38.700 some research, and it's true. Probably something 00:17:38.700 --> 00:17:42.039 that we consider safe. Right now, imagine a password. 00:17:42.180 --> 00:17:46.700 This password cannot be encrypted today, or could 00:17:46.700 --> 00:17:51.640 be, but in 1 ,000 years. It cannot. With a quantum 00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:53.759 computer, maybe that password can be decrypted 00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:58.079 in days or in minutes. So I think we have to 00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:00.960 change our mindset and think that maybe something 00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:04.380 that is protected today with some encryption, 00:18:04.980 --> 00:18:07.759 it's not going to be enough to protect this information 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:10.619 maybe in two years. Because I was in a conference 00:18:10.619 --> 00:18:15.180 related with a very incredible man from Spain. 00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:19.599 He's one of the key masters in quantum computing. 00:18:20.019 --> 00:18:23.799 He said, in the last five years, we are seeing 00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:27.119 that in 25 years, we have to change all the passwords 00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:29.720 and all the encryption systems. But every year 00:18:29.720 --> 00:18:32.569 is in 25 years. Maybe it's not going to be tomorrow, 00:18:32.589 --> 00:18:35.369 but maybe in 30 years, maybe 40 years. But for 00:18:35.369 --> 00:18:38.529 sure, a password or an information that is encrypted 00:18:38.529 --> 00:18:40.650 with technology that we have today, maybe it's 00:18:40.650 --> 00:18:42.309 not going to be enough to protect something in 00:18:42.309 --> 00:18:44.089 20, 30 years. Because with quantum computer, 00:18:44.170 --> 00:18:46.390 you can decrypt something in minutes. So we have 00:18:46.390 --> 00:18:49.069 to change. And actually, I have heard that in 00:18:49.069 --> 00:18:52.829 the MIT, they are creating new subjects, which 00:18:52.829 --> 00:18:56.750 are called quantum encryption, or how to define 00:18:56.750 --> 00:18:59.289 encryption related with quantum computer. Because 00:18:59.289 --> 00:19:02.099 that's going to be the future. But is it a big 00:19:02.099 --> 00:19:04.099 issue right now? Like, can you already use quantum 00:19:04.099 --> 00:19:07.960 computers to track passwords or it's still... 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:11.980 No, you can't because probably if you try, the 00:19:11.980 --> 00:19:13.640 host of this quantum computer is gonna block 00:19:13.640 --> 00:19:16.200 you. Because for instance, the IBM one is for 00:19:16.200 --> 00:19:18.940 free. I mean, you can go to IBM quantum and it's 00:19:18.940 --> 00:19:21.299 for free. You can make a request and they're 00:19:21.299 --> 00:19:23.960 gonna return the result. It's for free until 00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:26.740 some point, but yeah. Why? Because normally, 00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:29.660 I think, why? Because normally they want to be 00:19:29.660 --> 00:19:32.099 the standard in the future. So they have created 00:19:32.099 --> 00:19:33.799 a programming language for quantum computer. 00:19:34.380 --> 00:19:37.480 So the one who creates these programming languages 00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:39.500 will be the standard in the future. So it's for 00:19:39.500 --> 00:19:42.099 free. You can do it. You can go to IBM, write 00:19:42.099 --> 00:19:44.220 a small script, and use the technology. It's 00:19:44.220 --> 00:19:47.220 for free. But if you try there to hack a password, 00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:48.880 probably they are going to tell you, hey, Ricardo, 00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:51.339 don't do it. Don't go that way. Do you think 00:19:51.339 --> 00:19:53.640 we should be concerned with state actors using 00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:57.809 this technology to to hack a lot of things. Yes, 00:19:57.809 --> 00:20:00.009 but I think before is the artificial intelligence, 00:20:00.170 --> 00:20:02.569 because I'm saying one thing. I was using artificial 00:20:02.569 --> 00:20:04.529 intelligence seven years ago or something like 00:20:04.529 --> 00:20:07.809 that with IBM before ChatGPT, but now everybody 00:20:07.809 --> 00:20:11.490 has access to artificial intelligence and could 00:20:11.490 --> 00:20:13.710 be the same with quantum computing, because right 00:20:13.710 --> 00:20:16.910 now, if you are not in IBM or in Google or in 00:20:16.910 --> 00:20:19.369 this big tech, you cannot access quantum computing, 00:20:19.569 --> 00:20:23.779 but now you can even create your own AI. engine 00:20:23.779 --> 00:20:27.000 in your own laptop. I am always saying if I have 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:30.160 access to ChachiPT to hack people or to make 00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:34.019 hacking stuff, the bad guys can also do it. So 00:20:34.019 --> 00:20:36.359 bad guys, cyber criminals have access to ChachiPT 00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:39.759 as well. So they are making better email phishing. 00:20:40.259 --> 00:20:44.119 They can guess passwords with AI much better 00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:47.960 than before. So as the bad guys are using ChachiPT 00:20:47.960 --> 00:20:49.940 for bad things, we have to use it as well for 00:20:49.940 --> 00:20:52.920 good things. I think we have to evolve. Yes or 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:56.180 yes? Treats or recommendations you can give to 00:20:56.180 --> 00:20:58.539 someone and say, no, just do this straight away 00:20:58.539 --> 00:21:00.019 because that's really going to save you a lot 00:21:00.019 --> 00:21:02.460 of time or a lot of hassle in the future. I mean, 00:21:02.539 --> 00:21:05.339 for me right now, there is one thing that is 00:21:05.339 --> 00:21:07.500 mandatory, which is a two -factor authentication. 00:21:08.059 --> 00:21:10.180 So take for granted that your password is going 00:21:10.180 --> 00:21:14.740 to be stolen. Because sometimes it doesn't depend 00:21:14.740 --> 00:21:19.339 on you. You see, we saw that LinkedIn lost hundreds 00:21:19.339 --> 00:21:22.759 of millions of users, whatever. This is another 00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:26.480 password lost, 10 hundred, no, whatever. Millions 00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:29.299 of users have been lost in the last years. So 00:21:29.299 --> 00:21:32.420 our old passwords, our user names, our IDs are 00:21:32.420 --> 00:21:36.380 in the dark web already. So probably if you use 00:21:36.380 --> 00:21:39.059 some of those passwords in an old account, maybe 00:21:39.059 --> 00:21:42.000 it's going to work. Or maybe you are using the 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:44.119 same password into accounts. So maybe Instagram 00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:46.279 is working, but Google is hacked for instance. 00:21:46.539 --> 00:21:50.009 So they can use it in both networks. I am always 00:21:50.009 --> 00:21:52.750 saying is, in addition to the username and the 00:21:52.750 --> 00:21:54.710 password, you need something else. And that something 00:21:54.710 --> 00:21:59.230 else could be SMS that comes to your phone, could 00:21:59.230 --> 00:22:02.390 be your face ID, fingerprint, but something else, 00:22:02.470 --> 00:22:05.150 not only username and password. With that, you're 00:22:05.150 --> 00:22:07.150 going to be much more protected. Of course, not 00:22:07.150 --> 00:22:10.690 100%, but yeah. What about because, you know, 00:22:10.710 --> 00:22:13.210 I actually heard a horrible story like this, 00:22:13.670 --> 00:22:15.750 some guy who worked for a hedge fund, he got 00:22:15.750 --> 00:22:19.279 his phone stolen. And then within hours, people 00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:21.839 had asked for bank loans in his name using the 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:24.200 phone because, yes, as you're right, two -factor 00:22:24.200 --> 00:22:26.299 authentication, they send you a text, but if 00:22:26.299 --> 00:22:28.099 they do have your phone, they can do everything 00:22:28.099 --> 00:22:30.539 from there. Is there any way for us to protect 00:22:30.539 --> 00:22:32.660 ourselves against that? Because if someone has 00:22:32.660 --> 00:22:34.700 your phone and your phone has your email accounts, 00:22:35.079 --> 00:22:37.319 it's stopping the person who has your phone and 00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:39.839 free access to your phone to actually be going 00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:44.599 crazy. The key here is that, for instance, I 00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:46.960 have this configured in my phone. If you put 00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:50.400 10 times incorrect, my password is going to be 00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:53.819 deleted automatically. So things like that, like 00:22:53.819 --> 00:22:55.380 of course you have to protect your phone, you 00:22:55.380 --> 00:22:58.099 have to put always a password, not something 00:22:58.099 --> 00:23:03.299 easy, not the typical withdrawal. Or the remote 00:23:03.299 --> 00:23:04.980 control. For instance, there is another tip that 00:23:04.980 --> 00:23:08.140 is very useful. You can configure that. If the 00:23:08.140 --> 00:23:11.059 phone is not unlocked, you cannot disable Wi 00:23:11.059 --> 00:23:14.579 -Fi or 3G. 4G, 4G, 5G, whatever. That way, you 00:23:14.579 --> 00:23:16.940 can go to the remote control and say, delete 00:23:16.940 --> 00:23:20.240 my phone remotely. That could be done in iPhone 00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:22.559 and in Android. And that's something very easy, 00:23:22.680 --> 00:23:24.539 because you can find the phone, because it's 00:23:24.539 --> 00:23:26.039 going to be connected, and you can delete the 00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:29.180 phone remotely. And by the way, for the second 00:23:29.180 --> 00:23:31.980 one, for the two -factor authentication, if you 00:23:31.980 --> 00:23:34.460 can avoid SMS, much better. And the other option 00:23:34.460 --> 00:23:37.319 could be an application that every 30 seconds 00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:39.900 or every minute, change a random token or a code. 00:23:40.759 --> 00:23:43.400 Google Authenticator is a different thing. Okay, 00:23:43.480 --> 00:23:47.819 interesting. Instead of SMS. Going back on your 00:23:47.819 --> 00:23:51.079 startup and yourself as an entrepreneur, what 00:23:51.079 --> 00:23:53.519 tips and advice do we give to someone just starting 00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:56.700 out, based on your experience? Related with technology 00:23:56.700 --> 00:24:00.880 or with a startup? With the mindset and the startup. 00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:03.160 Not so much technology, but something completely 00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:05.759 agnostic, just saying, you know, I would advise 00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:08.839 people to go here or go there and do this. Yeah. 00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:12.440 What lessons have you learned anything? Yeah, 00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:14.779 no first of all the lesson that I told before 00:24:14.779 --> 00:24:17.240 it's not that easy that it looks and you're gonna 00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:20.019 You're gonna have bad moments hard moments that 00:24:20.019 --> 00:24:22.819 you have to bypass second that every see every 00:24:22.819 --> 00:24:26.940 single euro or pound or dollar counts Because 00:24:26.940 --> 00:24:29.039 when you raise money and you have 1 million or 00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:32.779 you have half million, whatever You spend on 00:24:32.779 --> 00:24:35.400 marketing salaries, whatever, but when you don't 00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:38.390 have the money is Very tricky, very, very tricky. 00:24:38.670 --> 00:24:40.069 So be careful with the marketing, for instance. 00:24:40.869 --> 00:24:43.809 Right now, I'm not spending too much, but I have 00:24:43.809 --> 00:24:45.430 had some moments in the past where the investors 00:24:45.430 --> 00:24:46.869 said, hey, we have to invest more in marketing 00:24:46.869 --> 00:24:48.789 or less, whatever. Be careful because sometimes 00:24:48.789 --> 00:24:51.269 if you have, for instance, a B2C model, the marketing 00:24:51.269 --> 00:24:55.230 could be a black hole. All the money can be there. 00:24:55.569 --> 00:24:58.089 So be careful with every single euro that you 00:24:58.089 --> 00:24:59.950 spend, even if you have a lot of money right 00:24:59.950 --> 00:25:01.910 now. Because sometimes, for instance, the venture 00:25:01.910 --> 00:25:03.869 capital, some of them, not all of them, but some 00:25:03.869 --> 00:25:07.900 of them I'm going to tell you, I want you to 00:25:07.900 --> 00:25:11.519 spend my money in six months, mandatory. Why? 00:25:11.619 --> 00:25:13.160 Because if you don't get your goals, maybe you 00:25:13.160 --> 00:25:14.980 need more money from the VC and you're going 00:25:14.980 --> 00:25:17.819 to be like, I need your money or the company 00:25:17.819 --> 00:25:20.019 is going to die. So sometimes I have seen this 00:25:20.019 --> 00:25:21.960 also with some of my colleagues that are working 00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:25.059 a lot with a lot of VCs at the same time. You 00:25:25.059 --> 00:25:28.660 have to be careful or at least understand the 00:25:28.660 --> 00:25:30.980 business of a venture capital. I think it's important 00:25:30.980 --> 00:25:35.880 to empathize in both ways because When you guys 00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:37.880 are raising money, you have to be very careful 00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:39.240 with the amount of the company that you're going 00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:41.940 to provide, the conditions. Be careful because 00:25:41.940 --> 00:25:45.640 maybe they can say in a term, if we say no to 00:25:45.640 --> 00:25:46.839 something, it's going to be no for everything 00:25:46.839 --> 00:25:51.920 or for always. We call it veto in Spain. My word, 00:25:52.220 --> 00:25:54.839 if I have no and I have 1 % of the company, but 00:25:54.839 --> 00:25:58.089 if I say no, it's no. The veto power, so they 00:25:58.089 --> 00:26:01.089 can veto the... Yeah, exactly. I have seen that 00:26:01.089 --> 00:26:02.609 in some of my colleagues and they said to me, 00:26:02.670 --> 00:26:05.569 be careful with that. We were not careful. So 00:26:05.569 --> 00:26:08.029 these kind of small details are very important. 00:26:08.450 --> 00:26:10.349 And also, yeah, so how to manage the money. Every 00:26:10.349 --> 00:26:12.930 euro counts. And be careful with the conditions. 00:26:13.109 --> 00:26:15.410 Also business angels, everybody. Because at the 00:26:15.410 --> 00:26:17.589 end, everybody has their own goals. And it's 00:26:17.589 --> 00:26:21.509 okay. So find a fair situation always. Because 00:26:21.509 --> 00:26:23.049 sometimes when you don't have the money, you 00:26:23.049 --> 00:26:25.450 sign whatever you have. in front of you. So you 00:26:25.450 --> 00:26:27.190 have to be very careful. And very important, 00:26:28.210 --> 00:26:31.170 I think we made it in calculus, but it's complicated 00:26:31.170 --> 00:26:35.470 sometimes to get this. You have to have a plan 00:26:35.470 --> 00:26:37.990 B in case you don't have cash the next month. 00:26:38.490 --> 00:26:40.430 So what's the minimum cost that you're going 00:26:40.430 --> 00:26:43.950 to have to avoid a company die? Imagine that 00:26:43.950 --> 00:26:45.930 tomorrow that client is not paying. Imagine that 00:26:45.930 --> 00:26:48.289 tomorrow the VC say, no, finally we are not going 00:26:48.289 --> 00:26:50.950 to invest the day before. Things like that can 00:26:50.950 --> 00:26:54.299 happen. And what's your plan B? If you don't 00:26:54.299 --> 00:26:56.079 have a plan B, probably you're going to die because 00:26:56.079 --> 00:26:58.799 you're not going to pay salaries. You're not 00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:01.980 going to pay the service of your platform. At 00:27:01.980 --> 00:27:04.259 least, I have learned this in the beginning of 00:27:04.259 --> 00:27:07.099 Hagrooks and I think we always have this kind 00:27:07.099 --> 00:27:09.299 of plan B and that's why we created the company 00:27:09.299 --> 00:27:11.299 four years ago now. I have seen a lot of friends 00:27:11.299 --> 00:27:13.660 with the company in 2020 that the company is 00:27:13.660 --> 00:27:17.059 not alive because of cash stuff and things like 00:27:17.059 --> 00:27:21.200 that. Because you raised it from investors in 00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:24.740 Spain and also in the US, correct? In Spain, 00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:28.519 not in US yet. Oh, okay. I was just asking about 00:27:28.519 --> 00:27:30.279 the mindset. You know, from the conversations 00:27:30.279 --> 00:27:32.980 you're having so far, is there anything that 00:27:32.980 --> 00:27:35.619 you think is different between all these geographies 00:27:35.619 --> 00:27:38.299 or investors thinking the same way? No, no, it's 00:27:38.299 --> 00:27:41.579 totally different. I didn't get investors from 00:27:41.579 --> 00:27:44.500 the US, but I've been talking a lot with several 00:27:44.500 --> 00:27:47.140 VCs in the US, business changes, whatever. It's 00:27:47.140 --> 00:27:49.079 totally different. I mean, the mindset. Some 00:27:49.079 --> 00:27:53.150 of them... I mean, for instance, in the US, we 00:27:53.150 --> 00:27:55.930 have this problem with Spain. If you are raising 00:27:55.930 --> 00:27:59.430 in Spain, I don't know, 6 million euros, maybe 00:27:59.430 --> 00:28:03.009 it's too much for the standard average ticket 00:28:03.009 --> 00:28:06.970 that ABCs are going to invest. It's too much. 00:28:07.089 --> 00:28:09.009 But if you go to the US, a couple of million, 00:28:09.009 --> 00:28:11.470 3 million euros, you're like, OK, we are not 00:28:11.470 --> 00:28:15.839 going to waste our time for that few. millions. 00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:17.700 For me, it's a lot, but for the US, it's not 00:28:17.700 --> 00:28:21.059 that much. So it depends on the country, it depends 00:28:21.059 --> 00:28:23.640 on the business that you can find in that country. 00:28:24.259 --> 00:28:27.000 For instance, in the UK, I think it's much similar 00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:30.700 to the US. But for instance, in Spain, I have 00:28:30.700 --> 00:28:32.980 friends that they were raising a friend of mine, 00:28:33.420 --> 00:28:38.660 actually. And he didn't get it. And to get that, 00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:41.640 or to try to get that, he had to combine like 00:28:41.640 --> 00:28:46.339 three or four VCs. 250. So you're like, four 00:28:46.339 --> 00:28:48.500 VCs for this amount of money, which is not that 00:28:48.500 --> 00:28:51.400 much. More or less. It's really complicated. 00:28:51.559 --> 00:28:53.119 You have to talk with a lot of people. Everybody 00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:55.380 has their conditions. But if you go to the US, 00:28:55.519 --> 00:28:58.059 maybe you can raise 6 million, 10 million with 00:28:58.059 --> 00:29:00.460 only one VC. So that's the difference sometimes. 00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:04.140 No, yeah, something like that. I think the amount 00:29:04.140 --> 00:29:07.240 of the money is not the same in the geography 00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:10.259 that you are. And maybe you can make some mistakes. 00:29:10.299 --> 00:29:11.900 Because if you go to the US and you say, I need 00:29:11.900 --> 00:29:14.799 200k. They're going to tell you, okay, come back 00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:16.799 to your country. I mean, you are too slow for 00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:18.920 us. That happened to me, actually, sometimes 00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:20.640 in the beginning. That's why I'm saying this. 00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:23.359 How have you dealt with it? I mean, it must have 00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:25.339 been hard when you go there and say, you know, 00:29:25.500 --> 00:29:27.519 only this much and a lot can happen. And they 00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:30.039 say, no, you're too slow. Go back to train. How 00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:32.460 do you think about that? In my case, and maybe 00:29:32.460 --> 00:29:34.599 this is a mistake, actually, I wanted to be very 00:29:34.599 --> 00:29:36.279 honest. I mean, because if you're in the US and 00:29:36.279 --> 00:29:39.359 they tell you, hey, no, but instead of 200k, 00:29:39.420 --> 00:29:42.339 it's going to be 20 million. You can say, OK, 00:29:42.380 --> 00:29:44.940 whatever, perfect. But with the valuation of 00:29:44.940 --> 00:29:46.299 your company, that means that you are setting 00:29:46.299 --> 00:29:49.160 your company. So make no sense. So you have to 00:29:49.160 --> 00:29:50.720 be careful, because if you say yes to all the 00:29:50.720 --> 00:29:52.279 money that you have, maybe you're going to lose 00:29:52.279 --> 00:29:54.880 a lot of percentage of your company. Or maybe 00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:56.420 you don't need that money, actually. You have 00:29:56.420 --> 00:29:57.799 to raise the money that you actually need for 00:29:57.799 --> 00:29:59.960 the goal that you set. So if you are talking 00:29:59.960 --> 00:30:02.440 with an investor in the US, and suddenly he's 00:30:02.440 --> 00:30:04.599 saying to you, and this happened to me some while 00:30:04.599 --> 00:30:10.960 in Spain, why 200? No, it's 100. Maybe yes or 00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:12.859 maybe not. Maybe I don't need it because I'm 00:30:12.859 --> 00:30:15.059 going to sell. I prefer to sell and get money 00:30:15.059 --> 00:30:17.559 with sales, not with investors. So you have to 00:30:17.559 --> 00:30:20.579 be very careful with the words that you say when 00:30:20.579 --> 00:30:23.579 you are talking with a VC or business angel because 00:30:23.579 --> 00:30:28.140 maybe they are tricking you at some point. Let's 00:30:28.140 --> 00:30:30.099 see what he says when I say, I have 20 million 00:30:30.099 --> 00:30:32.900 instead of 2 million. In what do you invest my 00:30:32.900 --> 00:30:34.819 money? I don't know. I think it's very tricky 00:30:34.819 --> 00:30:37.019 because if you say one word that doesn't fit 00:30:37.019 --> 00:30:39.960 with his mindset, because sometimes they are 00:30:39.960 --> 00:30:41.819 saying, no, we only invest in projects with these 00:30:41.819 --> 00:30:44.000 conditions. Maybe you don't know those conditions 00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:46.640 because it's secret or they are internal from 00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:49.180 the PC. And you say, yes, whatever. Yes to all. 00:30:49.420 --> 00:30:51.519 I need your money. Yes to all. I have seen that 00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:53.660 a lot. Maybe that's tricky. At the end, it's 00:30:53.660 --> 00:30:55.799 dangerous. So I prefer to be honest and I know 00:30:55.799 --> 00:30:57.400 this is the money that I need because this is 00:30:57.400 --> 00:30:59.900 my business plan. If you are able to provide 00:30:59.900 --> 00:31:04.680 more money, we can redo the business plan and 00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:06.640 we have to negotiate the amount of company that 00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:09.660 you want. You are going to invest triple or double. 00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:12.839 Of course, you want double of my company. Of 00:31:12.839 --> 00:31:14.559 course, yeah. You have to be very careful. Yeah. 00:31:14.839 --> 00:31:17.319 And how do you find these investors? Honestly, 00:31:17.559 --> 00:31:19.920 family and friends or friends of friends of friends 00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:24.299 at the end. So that's one option. Second, events, 00:31:25.119 --> 00:31:28.940 but not typical start -ups events. More specific 00:31:28.940 --> 00:31:31.839 networking events for... Yeah, so events in cybersecurity. 00:31:32.519 --> 00:31:34.539 So events related with the industry of the company. 00:31:35.720 --> 00:31:37.240 Because there you're going to have business partners, 00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:39.140 you're going to have investors, you're going 00:31:39.140 --> 00:31:42.140 to have clients. So normally I prefer to go to 00:31:42.140 --> 00:31:44.700 cybersecurity events instead of start -up events. 00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:47.920 Because sometimes when I have gone to these start 00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:52.259 -up events, I'm feeling that we are like... wolves 00:31:52.259 --> 00:31:54.799 following the three investors that are in the 00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:57.980 audience. You know, everybody's chasing them. 00:31:58.579 --> 00:32:00.980 It's very complicated to get attention, to get 00:32:00.980 --> 00:32:02.680 one minute to talk about your company is really 00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:06.279 complicated. I mean, they're okay, but it's complicated. 00:32:06.339 --> 00:32:07.960 So you have to manage very well this kind of 00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:10.799 events, because I mean, I've gone to some of 00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:13.339 them are some of them are great. And if you do 00:32:13.339 --> 00:32:14.920 it well, you can manage it very well. But you 00:32:14.920 --> 00:32:16.660 have to know that you have 30 seconds per investor. 00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:19.559 That elevator pitch is very important. That card, 00:32:19.740 --> 00:32:21.769 that message that's, hey, this guy I can make 00:32:21.769 --> 00:32:23.750 money with this guy. So you have to be very ready 00:32:23.750 --> 00:32:26.990 because you're going to have all the walls looking 00:32:26.990 --> 00:32:28.849 out for investors as well. So I've been there 00:32:28.849 --> 00:32:31.769 several times and I've got investors as well. 00:32:32.150 --> 00:32:33.970 And normally the investor that's finally invested 00:32:33.970 --> 00:32:37.710 in my company or yeah, normally have come from 00:32:37.710 --> 00:32:39.490 this kind of industry events. I don't know why. 00:32:39.529 --> 00:32:41.710 Maybe because cybersecurity is very specific 00:32:41.710 --> 00:32:45.230 and very close industry. It's very, at the end, 00:32:45.230 --> 00:32:47.730 we say always that we are a few people in the 00:32:47.730 --> 00:32:51.210 industry. Everybody knows everybody. Yeah, it's 00:32:51.210 --> 00:32:54.250 different to me. I always compare going to events. 00:32:54.490 --> 00:32:57.250 It's a bit like dating, right? You're single, 00:32:57.329 --> 00:33:00.269 you go to a bar full of single people. Now you're 00:33:00.269 --> 00:33:02.529 there, there's a likelihood of you meeting the 00:33:02.529 --> 00:33:04.289 right person, but there's also a likelihood of 00:33:04.289 --> 00:33:07.269 you meeting the completely wrong person. And 00:33:07.269 --> 00:33:08.789 it's the same thing with any event you go to, 00:33:08.809 --> 00:33:10.549 right? If you're there looking for investment, 00:33:10.970 --> 00:33:13.529 there are investors at the event. Is it likely 00:33:13.529 --> 00:33:15.250 for you to talk with them? Yes. Is it likely 00:33:15.250 --> 00:33:17.150 for you to be a good match? You know, that's 00:33:17.150 --> 00:33:19.309 up for grabs, but it's... You can never know 00:33:19.309 --> 00:33:21.430 that beforehand. Exactly. Exactly. So it's great 00:33:21.430 --> 00:33:23.509 as well. I've been in this speed dating sometimes 00:33:23.509 --> 00:33:26.289 as well, and it's okay. Maybe you feel that, 00:33:26.289 --> 00:33:27.609 okay, this isn't going to invest in the first 00:33:27.609 --> 00:33:29.849 second. So you have a conversation, five minutes 00:33:29.849 --> 00:33:32.150 conversation very well, and that's all. And the 00:33:32.150 --> 00:33:34.829 opposite. So yeah, that's okay as well. But normally, 00:33:36.009 --> 00:33:39.309 I mean, I think this important message. You have 00:33:39.309 --> 00:33:42.849 to fight or you have to manage to get your goals. 00:33:42.990 --> 00:33:44.849 Nobody's going to give you an investor for the 00:33:44.849 --> 00:33:48.400 event. Actually, right now we are as well in 00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:50.799 the Tampa Bay wave accelerator. We are in Florida, 00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:54.380 the city of Tampa. And we are there in an accelerator 00:33:54.380 --> 00:33:56.640 right now, very happy. And it's the same. We 00:33:56.640 --> 00:33:59.740 have had in front of us investors, mentors, business 00:33:59.740 --> 00:34:02.200 partners. But if I don't go, probably they are 00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:03.660 not going to say, hey, Enrique, how can I help 00:34:03.660 --> 00:34:06.539 you? How are you today? Let's go, you know? So 00:34:06.539 --> 00:34:09.579 in this kind of big events, it's the same. So, 00:34:10.059 --> 00:34:15.829 or startups events, you have to be, I mean, If 00:34:15.829 --> 00:34:18.849 you are like quiet or introvert, you have to 00:34:18.849 --> 00:34:21.309 change. At least you have to try. Like, hey, 00:34:21.409 --> 00:34:24.429 let's talk with everybody. Let's see what you 00:34:24.429 --> 00:34:27.449 get. I was wondering one thing, because I know 00:34:27.449 --> 00:34:29.570 the ecosystem here in the UK. And I know, for 00:34:29.570 --> 00:34:32.809 example, as an investor, you do get a lot of 00:34:32.809 --> 00:34:35.789 tax incentives to put your money in the startup. 00:34:36.750 --> 00:34:39.150 What is it like in Spain? Do you also get some 00:34:39.150 --> 00:34:44.619 type of government support? Yes, for the investors, 00:34:45.940 --> 00:34:49.539 if you invest some money, you can say at the 00:34:49.539 --> 00:34:51.980 end of the year, related with your taxes, you 00:34:51.980 --> 00:34:53.760 can say, hey, I invested in this startup, so 00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:55.719 I have some benefits. There are some benefits 00:34:55.719 --> 00:34:57.239 as well. Yeah, and it's very important to know 00:34:57.239 --> 00:34:59.579 very well the benefits in every country. Because 00:34:59.579 --> 00:35:03.139 not only benefits, also some helps. I mean, and 00:35:03.139 --> 00:35:06.000 helps not only money. Helps means, for instance, 00:35:06.019 --> 00:35:08.360 I went to Saudi Arabia with the government of 00:35:08.360 --> 00:35:12.210 Spain. They said, hey, five... a businessman, 00:35:13.250 --> 00:35:16.449 whatever, five companies, related with defense 00:35:16.449 --> 00:35:19.210 and with cyber security, and they invited us. 00:35:19.449 --> 00:35:21.449 That's great, of course. That's one opportunity 00:35:21.449 --> 00:35:23.510 that I had. And it's not money, but sometimes 00:35:23.510 --> 00:35:25.409 you get it. And also, depending on the country, 00:35:25.449 --> 00:35:27.210 for instance, in Spain, you have some money that 00:35:27.210 --> 00:35:30.849 you have to return. I mean, it's not for free, 00:35:31.130 --> 00:35:34.010 but maybe you have some, this kind of money that, 00:35:34.110 --> 00:35:35.929 okay, I give you the money now and in two years, 00:35:36.070 --> 00:35:38.570 you start to return the money. You have that 00:35:38.570 --> 00:35:41.239 gap. These kind of things are there, but you 00:35:41.239 --> 00:35:44.239 need someone to tell you this. Actually, I recommend, 00:35:44.260 --> 00:35:46.280 and we are using this here in Spain, companies 00:35:46.280 --> 00:35:50.119 that work, but you only have to be the company 00:35:50.119 --> 00:35:53.179 if they get the result. If they don't get this 00:35:53.179 --> 00:35:55.360 money or if they don't get anything, they don't 00:35:55.360 --> 00:35:58.139 get the money from you. So that's great, like 00:35:58.139 --> 00:36:01.139 a success fee only. Interesting. So they can 00:36:01.139 --> 00:36:02.900 tell you benefits and this stuff because they 00:36:02.900 --> 00:36:04.380 are going to get a percentage of the benefit 00:36:04.380 --> 00:36:07.940 that you get. And do you find that people are 00:36:07.900 --> 00:36:11.340 more risk -averse for willing to take the plunge 00:36:11.340 --> 00:36:13.920 and start a business in Spain? Sorry, sorry, 00:36:14.039 --> 00:36:16.679 say again? Do you think people in Spain are more 00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:19.639 likely to start a business and take the plunge? 00:36:19.940 --> 00:36:21.940 Because you left a very nice stable job in IBM. 00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:24.219 Do you think people are like... No, that's weird. 00:36:25.300 --> 00:36:28.000 In Spain, I think the mentality here is more 00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:30.340 like have your job, your salary every month, 00:36:30.460 --> 00:36:33.619 no pressure. I think that's our philosophy, unfortunately. 00:36:34.579 --> 00:36:37.280 For my family, it was very shocked. that I left 00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:43.000 IBM. And in Spain, we don't have... I don't know 00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:46.940 how to say this. That's philosophy. And also, 00:36:47.099 --> 00:36:49.980 we don't have a lot of help. When you are self 00:36:49.980 --> 00:36:52.039 -employed or when you have your own business, 00:36:52.079 --> 00:36:54.340 you have to pay from the day zero. I think in 00:36:54.340 --> 00:36:55.980 the UK it's different. In the UK, if you don't 00:36:55.980 --> 00:37:01.360 get 60k, you don't have to pay that much. No, 00:37:01.579 --> 00:37:03.599 you, so you, you need to be, uh, so in terms 00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:06.960 of VAT, for example, uh, you only pay after you, 00:37:07.300 --> 00:37:09.659 you're starting over, I think it's 80 ,000, uh, 00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:11.420 per year, then you need to start paying VAT, 00:37:11.659 --> 00:37:14.480 uh, which actually is quite good because you 00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:18.099 pretty much have a 20%. Um, and then there's, 00:37:18.139 --> 00:37:19.860 it's, it's easier. You don't pay anything to 00:37:19.860 --> 00:37:22.039 have a company open and start training. You do 00:37:22.039 --> 00:37:24.260 pay it yearly when, you know, when you close 00:37:24.260 --> 00:37:26.719 your account, uh, but you don't pay monthly on 00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:28.300 a monthly basis. So I think that's actually quite 00:37:28.300 --> 00:37:30.219 good because I know In Portugal, for example, 00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:33.679 you have to pay every month regardless if you 00:37:33.679 --> 00:37:35.739 are making profit or not. You still need to pay. 00:37:35.739 --> 00:37:37.579 Exactly. Here it is the same. And that's, I don't 00:37:37.579 --> 00:37:39.900 like it actually. And the taxes that the self 00:37:39.900 --> 00:37:42.579 -employed have in Spain normally are increasing. 00:37:42.940 --> 00:37:44.780 We don't have too many helps actually related 00:37:44.780 --> 00:37:46.880 with money or related with you don't have to 00:37:46.880 --> 00:37:48.420 pay until you see that your business is going 00:37:48.420 --> 00:37:51.039 well, like, or things like that. No, you have 00:37:51.039 --> 00:37:53.280 to pay the day zero. The first month that you 00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:55.400 start your business, you're paying taxes. So 00:37:55.960 --> 00:37:58.280 Yeah, there is a lot of point of view related 00:37:58.280 --> 00:38:00.260 with that in Spain. It's more a political thing. 00:38:00.579 --> 00:38:03.460 But yeah, I think it's not easy to start a company 00:38:03.460 --> 00:38:07.059 here. And I'm saying this because I've been in 00:38:07.059 --> 00:38:09.019 that path and also because I have friends that 00:38:09.019 --> 00:38:10.940 went to the UK to make the company because they 00:38:10.940 --> 00:38:12.900 said to me, I prefer the UK instead of Spain 00:38:12.900 --> 00:38:14.639 to make my business because it's much easier. 00:38:14.980 --> 00:38:16.699 You can try the thing that you said related with 00:38:16.699 --> 00:38:21.019 the money. So yeah, I have friends, a friend 00:38:21.019 --> 00:38:22.599 of mine actually from Spain is living in London 00:38:22.599 --> 00:38:24.690 because of this reason. because of taxes things 00:38:24.690 --> 00:38:27.409 and because of his magic here and yeah, he met 00:38:27.409 --> 00:38:35.650 a girl there. So I don't like that because means 00:38:35.650 --> 00:38:37.909 that talent like this guy is living in Spain. 00:38:38.250 --> 00:38:41.849 So I don't know. It's a funny thing. The cost 00:38:41.849 --> 00:38:43.909 that you have to start to launch a business from 00:38:43.909 --> 00:38:46.449 scratch, if they're too high, they actually create 00:38:46.449 --> 00:38:49.750 a barrier for innovation and create a barrier 00:38:49.750 --> 00:38:52.960 for entrepreneurship because You just can't afford 00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:55.219 that because you need to pay the government regardless 00:38:55.219 --> 00:38:57.179 of what happens in your business. And like you 00:38:57.179 --> 00:38:58.980 said, there's highs and lows, right? Some months 00:38:58.980 --> 00:39:00.260 you have money in the bank, others you don't 00:39:00.260 --> 00:39:02.820 have money in the bank. But if one of the reasons 00:39:02.820 --> 00:39:04.300 you need to close the company is because the 00:39:04.300 --> 00:39:06.800 state then comes and asks for money, that's incredibly 00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:10.059 frustrating, I would say. No, it is. And in the 00:39:10.059 --> 00:39:11.619 beginning, it's terrible because you see the 00:39:11.619 --> 00:39:14.019 gas going down and down and down every month. 00:39:14.039 --> 00:39:17.579 It's great. And much hard rock because in hard 00:39:17.579 --> 00:39:19.460 rock we had to be one year creating a platform 00:39:19.460 --> 00:39:24.440 with no sales. It was really hard to see how 00:39:24.440 --> 00:39:28.820 we were paying taxes and taxes and taxes. It's 00:39:28.820 --> 00:39:31.619 what we have here. What was the hardest that 00:39:31.619 --> 00:39:33.340 you had? What was the one you said, you know 00:39:33.340 --> 00:39:37.179 what, I'm going to give up? And how did you came 00:39:37.179 --> 00:39:41.039 back from that moment? We had a moment where 00:39:41.039 --> 00:39:43.860 at the same time, three or four clients didn't 00:39:43.860 --> 00:39:48.329 pay. Same month. For different reasons. So sadly, 00:39:48.590 --> 00:39:52.929 we had one time in four years, very, very complicated. 00:39:53.530 --> 00:39:57.050 No money at the bank. Clients don't pay in. It 00:39:57.050 --> 00:39:59.650 was really hard. I think not too many people 00:39:59.650 --> 00:40:04.690 know this, but yeah, this happened. And we said, 00:40:04.889 --> 00:40:07.449 hey guys, we have to sell something now. Today, 00:40:07.969 --> 00:40:10.610 like incredible. And we made it. It was incredible. 00:40:11.230 --> 00:40:14.429 We saved the company or at some point we saved 00:40:14.429 --> 00:40:16.550 the situation because we always have that plan 00:40:16.550 --> 00:40:18.900 B. But the plan being means that we have to fire 00:40:18.900 --> 00:40:24.480 people. It's a very tough plan. So we had that 00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:27.320 situation where everybody suddenly were not paying, 00:40:27.539 --> 00:40:29.340 like from one day to another, like, what the 00:40:29.340 --> 00:40:32.000 hell is going on here? And the cash was going 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:34.199 down. So we had to make several changes in the 00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:36.380 company, several changes in the technology, several 00:40:36.380 --> 00:40:39.440 optimize the economy of the company. And I think 00:40:39.440 --> 00:40:41.940 that was very good at the end because we were 00:40:41.940 --> 00:40:44.820 able to change different parts to save a lot 00:40:44.820 --> 00:40:46.860 of money that month, that period of time. And 00:40:46.860 --> 00:40:50.019 we kept those changes, or a lot of those changes, 00:40:50.079 --> 00:40:51.920 because we optimized the cost of the company 00:40:51.920 --> 00:40:54.480 a lot. So it was a good experience related with 00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:55.900 the money, but a very bad experience related 00:40:55.900 --> 00:40:59.699 with my years of life. Like the street that we 00:40:59.699 --> 00:41:01.880 had at that time, we had to call the client, 00:41:02.039 --> 00:41:05.360 hey, guy, in theory, you had to pay last month, 00:41:05.400 --> 00:41:07.199 you're not paying, whatever. So finally, one 00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:11.260 client paid a bit. Other times, you have to put 00:41:11.260 --> 00:41:13.119 your own money suddenly, but you have to be careful 00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:15.599 because you cannot do that all the time. you 00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:19.639 don't have unlimited money. So yeah, for me, 00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:21.800 the hard part is those moments where you don't 00:41:21.800 --> 00:41:24.239 have cash and you have to take very complicated 00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:27.380 decisions like fire people, restrict to the company, 00:41:27.940 --> 00:41:29.739 talk with your partners, talk with your employees. 00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:33.280 That's very complicated. That's the hard thing 00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:35.619 to manage. Enrique, you're going to be one of 00:41:35.619 --> 00:41:41.480 our speakers at our event on April 23rd. So I'm 00:41:41.480 --> 00:41:43.159 very much looking forward to hearing you speak 00:41:43.159 --> 00:41:46.780 on stage. In between now and the event, if people 00:41:46.780 --> 00:41:48.519 want to reach out to you, how can you do so? 00:41:49.380 --> 00:41:52.059 Normally, in my social media, it's great. My 00:41:52.059 --> 00:41:54.900 name is Enrique, like my name, and at the end, 00:41:54.980 --> 00:41:59.039 I -T -E, I -T engineer. Enrique, I -T -E. It's 00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:01.280 very easy. You can find me. Normally, I use more 00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:04.460 Instagram or Twitter, X now, or even LinkedIn. 00:42:04.659 --> 00:42:06.639 You can connect and you can send me whatever 00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:08.860 question that you have. If I can help, I'm more 00:42:08.860 --> 00:42:10.280 than happy. Thank you so much for your time today. 00:42:10.280 --> 00:42:12.260 I really appreciate it. Thank you for the invitation, 00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:16.519 Ricardo. This podcast is also sponsored by startupnetworks 00:42:16.519 --> 00:42:20.079 .co .uk. Startup networks, it's an online forum 00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:22.119 where you can find all the resources you need 00:42:22.119 --> 00:42:24.639 to run your startup. From grants to investors 00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:26.800 to tips and tricks on how to be successful in 00:42:26.800 --> 00:42:29.860 your startup. This podcast is sponsored by openexperts 00:42:29.860 --> 00:42:32.900 .com. OpenExperts is a place to go if you're 00:42:32.900 --> 00:42:34.699 looking to talk with top experts from around 00:42:34.699 --> 00:42:38.179 the world. That is open -experts .com.