Welcome to the Innovation Conversation, a podcast
about innovators, both in business and real life.
Hosted by myself, Ricardo Rescual and Harry McCona.
This podcast is sponsored by OpenExperts .com.
OpenExperts is a place to go if you're looking
to talk with top experts from around the world.
That is Open -Experts .com. This podcast is also
sponsored by StartupNetworks .co .uk. Startup
Networks, it's an online forum where you can
find all the resources you need to learn your
startup. from grants to investors to tips and
tricks on how to be successful in your startup.
Today, we are talking with Natalie Schwarzkopf,
an investor from Blackfin Capital Partners. Hi,
and welcome to another episode of the Innovation
Conversations. Today, we are joined by Natalie
Schwarzkopf, an investor from Germany. Natalie,
welcome. Thank you, Ricardo. Thank you so much
for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Yes,
so I work in Blackfin, and we're an investor,
or a fund dedicated to financial services. So
we follow two different strategies. We have on
one side, a DIGI -Bio strategy, where we do majority
investment in profitable companies. And the VC
side of the strategy, where we invest minority.
Sorry, can I do it again? Minority stakes, where
we take minority stakes in companies. And yeah,
I'm part of the VC strategy and we invest in
European headquarters, Fin and Intratex, from
series A onwards, so ABC, with initial ticket
sizes from 5 to 25 million. I'm based out of
the Frankfurt office of Blythfin. We also have
other offices in Paris, London and Brussels,
and also recently opened an office in Amsterdam.
How do you get started in this? How do you become
an investor? How do you try a black thing? Well,
I think my journey as an interviewee was rather
serendipitous. So in high school, I'd already
gained my first entrepreneurial experience being
involved in two voluntary startup projects in
high school. So for one of them, my team and
I actually have promised... a 100 ,000 cheque
from a research institute in Germany to build
up a lot. And it was a kind of Google Maps for
airports and train stations with various discounts
that you can see directly on the app and use
it for you to see how long it takes them to get
them to vacate and see the real -time information
such as the time to go in. And yeah, our idea
actually got introduced by Larry's app for it.
It's a series after we won the competition. So
it also kind of proved that there actually was
a need. But however, we decided to focus on continuing
our high school studies instead of dropping out
of high school, which was not really an option.
And yeah, also during the high school, as well
as after it, I spent some time in Asia. When
I was 14 years old, I went to a local boarding
school in Shanghai. And after my high school,
I did a three -year training program. which was
an extremely valuable personal experience. It
also shaped me in many, many ways. And yeah,
after my time in Hong Kong, I decided to finish
my university studies in business, which I did
in the Netherlands. And I was out to spending
like half a year in Santiago de Chile. After
my university studies and my graduation, which
was in the middle of COVID in 2020, I had an
offer to work in a small international team with
very experienced and inspired people, like working
on projects in the financial services area. mainly
for a former senior M .D. at a large private
equity company who was appointed as CFO to the
board of a formerly state -owned German bank
that was acquired by his P .E. company. and also
together with another senior executive, who was
one of the first ladies in the board of a German
financial institution. And they kind of were
like mentors for me. And I gained a lot of knowledge
on the European banking market, but also on syntax.
And yeah, also during that time, I was able to
develop my coding and modeling skills and sharpen
them even further, which became super handy,
like for my current job in DC. Also during that
time, I was speaking too little fintechs, but
yeah, kind of more like from the client or acquirer
perspective. And I realized that I really enjoy
this kind of mix of analytical and personal skills
of the job. But to really make impactful decisions
that are based on how much work we put in, I
thought I really have to go into VC. So yeah,
that's how I got into it, like what I know of
years ago, and I'm really enjoying it a lot.
And I think also what fascinates me a lot about
this job is that you get exposure to so many
brilliant and smart founders with so much experience.
on it and so many very brilliant ideas on a daily
basis. So yeah, this is what I really enjoy and
also my team members. I have an extraordinary
depth of knowledge in this space. So yeah, I'm
really grateful to be kind of in this space.
This is an interesting story because it feels
like you've Hey, as you say, you kind of you
kind of started applying for the job when you
were in high school, right? Because it's pretty
cool. I was gonna ask you because obviously,
I know there's a lot of criteria when you're
looking at any investment, potential investment.
So what are the key things that you can tell
me right now and say, you know what, I always
look forward to these things when I'm looking
at them. Startups or is it about the financial
or combination of these two things? So I think
like, first of all, I mean, we're looking at
the thin and intricate space, which is already
kind of a focus space, like in the whole starter
world. So everything that is kind of related
to that segment would actually qualify as kind
of. in scope. And within our scope, we kind of
yeah, as we invest in from series A onwards,
we have to speak to a lot of founders, which
are actually also like in seed or pre seed stage,
also to yeah, kind of already know the relationship
from early onwards. And yeah, but also invest
stage even though they're quite like a little
bit too early for us we still look at some things
for example like the traction or also like what's
the AR development. How are the cost efficiencies?
Like is the company like burning a lot or is
it rather like cost -conscious? That's something
we kind of really particularly look at. But yeah,
for example, the company hasn't reached the traction
that are kind of desirable for us. I would say
like the sweet spot of series A is around like
1 million annual recurring revenues. If it hasn't
reached that kind of KPI end or when really when
yes, it has signed a life time for you. like
in the B2B space, because they are focusing on
something like a little bit more like on the
B2B side of things, then they would still qualify.
But I think it's kind of a combination of different
factors that lead us to invest in companies.
I think certainly the criteria has become like
for founders to raise have become slightly harder
in the past few years than in 2021. So yeah,
kind of seeing your attraction and customers
that they were able to sign has become more important.
It's always a combination of different things.
Team is also quite important for us. So yeah,
then the team is able to also progress to the
next stages because I think Series A is a kind
of in between like the very early stages, but
also like in the growth stage. And so the founder
needs to have certain skills that are kind of...
I was going to ask you, how do you differentiate
the hype? Like, I was looking at a story of a
keyword and you got to a level where they had
a crazy valuation and there was a lot of hype
behind it, right? But their financials was just
completely not there. So how do you set that
apart when you're looking at a company? You might
need a founder who is very charismatic, has a
lot going for himself or herself. But how do
you personally say, you know what, I'm just into
your financials and actually I don't want to
invest because it doesn't let up. So did you
ever come across companies like this? I would
say we don't really invest in companies that
are super hyped. Of course, you see a couple
of business models, for example, like AI, which
has, yeah. been quite high in the last few years.
And I think also these companies, they don't
really have a lot of problems with raising right
now. So just look at Mistfile, which was just
closed around, I think, at the end of last year
again with a crazy valuation. Also, I think in
the climate tech space, there are also a couple
of companies. Since we invest in the rather later
stages, we don't really focus on only the founding
teams and we wouldn't invest in just the hype.
Also, yeah, kind of the financials are too important
also for us. And so that's why. Yeah, but I mean,
there has always been these crazy companies that
are raising large amounts. And yeah, I think
it's probably something more for other VCs. But
yeah, for us, we kind of also have like a, since
we have this knowledge on the market and our
founding members who have been in the financial
services. Yeah, area for many, many years, and
also kind of experienced like all the different
crises and hives. They're more like sensible
when it comes to investing in super hype deals.
On that note, when you look at all these companies,
because I know you're expecting them to be very
much Do you notice any big difference between
the constraints in terms of the way that you
think or not really? It's pretty much all very
standard. I think the market picked up quite
much in the UK and in France. That was at least
my impression. And we also kind of track the
deals each week that happen like in the Finland
Intercheck space. So if you're interested in
that, you can subscribe to our YouTube channel.
And we also like always posted on LinkedIn. And
I think it was also like very interesting for
us. So we always try to Yeah, kind of use this
statistics for our own kind of knowledge. And
we had to compare the rounds that happened over
the last few years, but also in the different
regions. And you can clearly see that UK is kind
of an outlier in that sense. And Germany was...
rather more conscious, like, yeah, like once
in the last year, there were a lot of like the
trams last year as well. Or internal rounds.
But yeah, and I have I have the feeling that
it's picking up in Germany again. So you see
a lot of more like investable companies. And
my feeling was also that a lot of these companies,
especially in Germany, they managed quite well
over the crisis with this continued focus on
profitability. I'm curious to see how the market
evolves over the next few months. It's slightly
more complicated than starting a business in
Germany. because in Germany you actually need
some some capital to get started and then it's
fairly more complex plus it's right yeah that's
true that's true so in Germany for a lot of things
you still have to go like to the kind of registry
office um to get papers signed by the specific
authorities whereas in the UK much more is like
digitalized and and easier in that sense um you
don't understand the difference in the size of
the rounds because I'm not expecting it to be
European, but do German companies tend to ask
for a higher round in comparison to the UK ones
or the other way around? Or how does that work?
I wouldn't necessarily say so. Yeah, I think
I have to look more into it. That's alright.
It's not an interview. I mean, it is technically
an interview, but it's not like a job interview,
so it's a good way to start thinking about other
things. So I wanted to ask you about Obviously,
I know you travel a lot. I know you have traveled
a lot. Which countries, I don't know how to phrase
that, comparing Europe to the US, what are they
doing differently? Because obviously the value
they create in the global economy is much, much
higher. So why do you think that's so? What sets
them apart? I think the US investors and also
startups are way more risk taking than the European
ones. So and yeah, I mean, they also still you
can see it like in the growth round. So American
investors, they still want like a large kind
of growth with extreme burn costs. Whereas the
European investors and the whole market in Europe
has become more like towards kind of building
more like a sustainable market and businesses.
But yeah, I think that's probably also because
of the mentality. in the U .S. and also maybe
history -wise and since there is also a lot more
guide power to deploy in the U .S. yeah so kind
of they they're focusing more like on than on
us as a coach of the yeah getting family started
and if you don't see then you still are all over
again and do it in a different way whereas in
Germany you kind of try or like in other countries
in Europe you just try and if it doesn't succeed
then you try to adapt your business until it
works but you don't fail completely in that sense
and so yeah kind of you pivot a lot but yeah
it's a kind of different also mentality. I have
to ask you this question, right? Because you're
on the receiving end of a lot of pitch decks,
a lot of outreaches from startups. Now, what's
the best way to reach out to an investor? Because
there's a lot of software out there that kind
of helps you reach out to investors. There's
a lot of groups that don't do things like that.
And there's also these hyper -connected people.
So what do you think is the best way as an investor
to A, receive a pitch deck? But also for startup
to say, you know, I want to reach out to them.
This is how it normally works. I think the best
way is always to get like a warm introduction
from another investor or where some of them needed
an event because then you can also like maybe
see if the yeah, kind of, yeah, sound very good.
So I think the best way is always like to get
a warm introduction by like another investor
or It's also very valuable if you meet people
at events because you already have a sense of
the person. And if he's able to manage investors
and the company. And since I think the job is
also very much on deciding on kind of... Sorry.
So, but I think it's also okay if founders would
just reach out via LinkedIn, maybe like tell
a few things about their business and why you
should have a look at them. That's also like
a good way. So I think it's not the best way.
I think it's always certainly kind of weird to
get... cool outreaches by founders, especially
if you have the feeling that they don't really
have a look on the website of us, what we're
doing. Since we're focusing on fin and intro
text, we probably won't look at a gaming company
or something like kind of in the e -commerce
space, which is not related to fintech. So I
think it's usually also like low who you're kind
of reaching out to. So to get back from research
and when you do reach out, make sure it's signed
for someone. Exactly. Yeah, I think I think that's
the issue is that we actually met through my
very fragmented shopping approach, where I emailed
thousands and thousands of investors. So probably
not the best way to do that. But yeah, it's always
interesting to know this because I know that
a lot of investors get a lot of pitch decks,
and it just kind of overflows their very boxes,
right? So it's not the best way to do that. So
interesting. Okay, so in all these markets, where
do you think that the investors are less risk
-averse, so they're more willing to gamble with
their funds? This is a bit of a thick question.
Where do you think they're more likely to, say,
you know, not really here, let's see how it goes.
I think it's currently, I think I already touched
upon it a little bit. But I think in the AI space,
for most cases, those are these solutions that
improve the efficiency of processes. So they
really have a significant value add for companies
and are aimed like to sign probably also a lot
of companies. And so this is already a good sign
for investors. Also, these solutions also tend
to have a healthy technology. Doing diligence
on that specific area probably also turns out
well. Also, normally, if you're building AI solutions,
you also need to, as a founder, you need to have
some technical skills. in that case, you would
also take a box in that sense. So yeah, since
it's quite tight at the moment, and everyone
kind of wants to invest in that area, I would
assume that investors probably don't have that
many harsh criteria in that area. And it also
goes for client and tech. that I had the impression
were not so much affected by the market cool
down. And here's a lot of corporates here and
here as well have ESG on their agenda and they
really have a continued interest to fulfill the
ESG, ESG build. So therefore it goes along with
that investors Probably you also have these CSG
agendas and therefore, yeah, probably, yeah,
invest in colonies in that field. So would you
sell for startup, stop what you're doing, just
build me something that has AI and the climate
tech or something like that, or some ESG in the
middle? Because we know that you got to get investment
one way or the other. Would you say that's a
company? Yeah, I think it also depends on so
many other factors, also like who the investors
are, how the market is at that time. And I think
also like, I mean, if you're building something
now, the chances are that you probably have to
change it before you sell it at that height,
because the market when you're probably on sell
or IPO is completely different. than the one
that you're building for now. So therefore, I
think it's quite important also to be close to
the customers and flexibly on the changing market
conditions and need. So therefore, yeah, I probably
wouldn't say you should go to that area, but
also listening close to your customers and observe
what's out in the market right now. And it's
currently, it's for now, like it's a trend for
now, but we don't really know what the trend
will be like for a couple of years in the time.
Yeah, true. I mean, I was looking at, I was talking
to a couple of people looking at success on AI
and the value it's going to bring to the world
economy. It's true. It's actually amazing. But
then you cannot help but wonder what's the downside?
I mean, are people going to use their jobs over
this? Which I'm sure that we have a lot of people
who use their jobs over this. Um, and also like
how, how impactful is this? This is going to
be the whole AI. It's going to be in a very exciting
space to be in, I think, but also it's going
to be moving, right? There's a lot of that. For
example, let's say that the companies that do
this, um, with any picture and then the picture
changes and, you know, it's one old pirate and
then become a pirate and stuff like that. And
if you just will start doing that, that you might
not affect the level, you might not grow that
well in the future, right? Cause it's very limited.
Yeah, that's true. How much, like, when you look
at the syntax space, how ripe is it for disruption?
Because distribution is slow -moving, it's quite
easy. You know, banks, for example, don't offer
the technology. So how ripe is it for disruption,
if we're wrong? I think it depends also a little
bit on the sector or in a space. So I think some
areas, for example, like in the compliance segment
or like KYC, KYB space, there's still a lot of
potential for disruptions. I looked at the market
framework in the summer, and I had the feeling
that still a lot of processes are done very manual.
So for example, like to do like a KYB check,
you really need to go to the bank, introduce
yourself, get a copy of your password, and then
the bank kind of does a check. But I think here
you can really bring a lot of innovation in the
market, also with AI or automation. I think therefore,
this is a really interesting segment, rec check.
following it quite closely and yeah there's certainly
other areas like um which have typically um yeah
kind of which were served by large corporates
before, but now I have the feeling that the trust
in fintechs is more established than a couple
of years ago. For example, we were also looking
at one sector in the supply chain financing area
and my feeling was that the companies in that
sector or the fintechs were competing only with
like Yeah, large banks in that sense. But the
fintechs that were around it were already like,
oh, and 10 years old. So, yeah, and banks were
more and more willing to collaborate with them.
because they now reached a certain size, they
reached certain clients, they tested the solution
so the technology was kind of solid or is solid.
So there's much more acceptance on fintech players
in the market, which I think brings a lot of
value and therefore there's always room for innovation
in the market and disruption. I'm curious to
see which area is the next. You touched upon
something quite interesting, which is banks,
traditionally, they won't want to do business
with an early -stage startup, maybe in series,
CSA startup. How do you get past that and how
do you build trust with, for example, a bank,
as we talked about in the first few things here?
How do you get past that stage where your clients
will be very large institutions? How do you build
that trust for them? I think, first of all, the
most important thing is that your solution is
actually working. And if it doesn't work, if
it doesn't work, then you as a startup, you find
a solution to make it work. And if you have continued
good feedback of clients, then I think it's easy
to also sell other corporates. And I think in
the past a lot of companies were focusing first
on the mid -market segment. or small and mid
-market segment. And then we're working the way
up to large corporates. Because then they reached
a certain size, they became interesting for corporates.
So I think now it's changed a little bit. So
some companies are already targeting large corporates.
But yeah, I think that's a thing that you need
to kind of... make sure that you also have interesting
partnerships, which is also a good way to get
into, to sign conference in partnerships that
are relevant, where you can able to demonstrate
that if they already sign you or they suggest
you, then this will seem to work and yeah, well,
kind of improve processes. because they're saying
superhuman beings or who actually is something
innovative. I was wondering about something else.
I was reading a post the other day on my feed
and some random guy was bragging about how he
gets thousands and thousands of pitch checks
every year but he only looks at 0 .01 % and then
when he won though, obviously he was being a
bit of a What does that process look like from
your side? When you get a pitch deck, how many
people actually work it in? Do all pitch decks
get hooked upon or not really? Who looks at these
pitch decks? How does that process work on the
other side? I would say that we look at all of
the pitch decks that we receive. Depends a little
bit on which channel, like, I think, like, if
I receive one on my personal mail, or my LinkedIn,
then of course, I will have a look at them. If
it's on our kind of company, yeah, sort of email
address, which is for everyone, then I'm not
sure. who would look at it. So it's always better
like to send like kind of the emails to the right
people. And so at Blackfin we got so kind of
divided into different regions. And also like
I based in the specific region. So as I'm based
in Frankfurt, I'm covering the whole like Germany.
Austria and Swiss market, and colleagues of mine
that are based in the UK are covering, of course,
the UK market. Other colleagues who are in France
covering France, obviously, or in the Nordics,
and Southern Europe, or Benelux. So usually it's
the people who are responsible for the region
will look at the... And in the DL team, they're
normally like three to four people, I would say.
And yeah, it depends a little bit like on the
segment. So for example, in our team, you have
some experts. So for example, I have one colleague
who worked in the final administrator sector
for a couple of years. So she's kind of the expert
on all topics that are related to that. So if
we would see a deal in the next days, we would
always ask for some advice. Sometimes it's also
just me who look at the finish dates and if I
found the opportunity interesting, I also like
to push forward and yeah, I have a first call
with the founders and if the call was positive
and I like the opportunity, I usually present
the opportunity in our team meeting like every
Monday and then yeah, kind of with a one -pager
on the company. And yeah, if my team members
find the opportunity interesting, we will go
further and dig more deeper into the company.
But yeah, this is, yeah. How many, how many get
checks do you go on average? Ah, I've never counted
them. But I think, I would say I would, I mean,
it depends a little bit on the leaves because
I think No week is kind of the same as the other
and no day is like the same as the other. But
I think I would speak to, I would say like four
to five companies per week. Sometimes more, sometimes
less, of course. And the pitch decks, I would
probably receive... I mean, it depends a little
bit because I want to do a lot of cool outreach
lists to founders. Or if I see a company that
I'm interested in speaking to, but they're not
raising, they probably don't have a pitch check.
So I just collect notes of the meeting and that
will kind of also serve as a test basis. But
the pitch checks I received over the last three
years were... Probably like, yeah, maybe I would
say on average, maybe three per week. So also
often I get them and then I don't really find
the opportunity interesting. So I'm not really
in the call. But I think people know that we
kind of also like series A investors. So I guess
that seed investors probably getting a lot more
than us. Um, but, uh, yeah. It must be crazy
for a city investor to get, there are many pitch
decks, right? Cause everyone wants to start something.
So it must be absolutely crazy. On that though,
do you use any software to analyze the pitch
decks? Cause now there's a lot of AI solutions
that just bring down the whole thing and say,
oh, this is good, this is not good based on A,
B and C. Like, do you use any type of AI solutions
for that or is it still very much a random process?
Not so far. I mean, it's quite a manual process.
I think there are certain things we look at to
assess whether a company is interesting. So first
of all, of course, the product, then the traction,
if they have a site on that, typically they have
like from series A onwards, C stage, it's not
so common, I would say, but also go to market
or sales channel. But I think it depends a little
bit on the... on the segment we're looking at.
So, yeah, but I think part of what has done it
better and also like the fundraising deck is
also something that we find particularly interesting.
You know, if you have one advice to give to founders,
what would that advice be? It's really important
in the end to kind of understand the environment
as you're in as a founder. And I think it's absolutely
crucial to act flexibly and with us to the customer
needs. Yeah, I think also in terms of deal terms
and valuations, I think founders should not go
for the absolute minimum dilution. yeah, trying
to get to some crazy valuation. So they should
rather anticipate and party with 50 % to 25 %
of the company in typical. So yeah, kind of not
doing these crazy competitive rounds. And yeah,
I think also that sounds one thing that founders
should expect is especially like in birdie funding
rounds is a clean trump sheet without like burl
some veto voting rights or multiple election
references. because it could really like, yeah,
kind of become like something which could obstruct
your later rounds as a founder. And I think also
what is important for founders is they should
account for more time and for more runway when
raising money. So I think the time also they
have to raise a serious fee round. I read a statistic
from CARTA. It has grown to 85 % over the last
three years. So if you should rather raise when
you still have money, not when you have drugs.
And I think really you should try to be close
to the customers, really, really understand the
market they're in and building alongside them,
understanding their needs. Because I think those
companies who followed this approach also like
in the last two years, they are the successful
ones. And I think the startups that are in trouble
now are the ones that wanted to build that product
like fast and scale really fast and also were
able to keep their costs under control. And another
really important thing, which is also Yeah, quite
crucial for the fundraising process. As a founder,
I think you should really focus on building investor
relations early on and also update interested
investors on a regular basis because then you
really spend too much time during your fundraising
process to explain your product and business
all over again. And my impression was also like
when speaking to founders that they really want
to raise the more specialized fund. I'm not sure
if it's a bias because, you know, like I'm focused
on a fill -in intertext, but that's a feedback
that I continuously hear from founders, that
they're really looking for someone kind of who
brings like a strategic angle to the company.
So, yeah, that's Bosna Metis. It's interesting
because you mentioned something that I wasn't
aware of, that it's actually much harder, not
much harder, but... The market's also slowing
down raising CSK, BNC. Why is that happening?
Because everyone's complaining about how slow
the market is, how hard it is to raise. I thought
series A's would be like, you know, you made
it so we're safe now, but actually, you tell
me it's the other way around. It's actually quite
hard for yourself. So what do you think that
is? Is there anything you can do to change that?
Yeah, I think it's, I mean, it's something that
probably you can see like in every stage of development.
I think In the past, especially in 2021, which
was definitely not a year to compare to this
year, the valuations were extremely high and
a lot sustainable. The balance was super big
and bigger and better, but not necessarily better
for growth and sustainability. I think it changed
a lot in the past three years. because the valuations
start to come on the KPIs that investors like
to see also become more straight. And I think
this is also leading to capital costs that are
now significantly higher than in the last decade,
which means that it obviously becomes more difficult
to raise. And yeah, so, you know, like, since
the investment market orientates itself like
on the interest rate market, and we haven't really
reached any significant interest level or interest
plateau. And I don't think that the fundraising
market, especially like in the like later stages,
change much because we haven't really seen like
the full consequences of the market crash yet.
And therefore, I think if the capital cost or
the interest level if they don't really kind
of change significance in our favor, then Yeah,
it probably won't change that much like until
2020. But yeah, I think, yeah. So there needs
to be a reduction in the industry. I mean, it's
not necessarily that sign, I would say. I mean,
if you look at the vintage years, years after
the dotcom bubble or the financial crisis, you
see actually in those years, were super formative,
meaning that those years also brought a lot of
innovation to the market and brought very strong
innovative companies. And also, like, if you
look at the fund performance and the returns
of VC firms, they were able to achieve during
those years. It was one of the strongest years
in venture capital. Yeah, therefore, I think
it's now a good sign. And I mean, there's also
this saying that you always should act like counter
-cyclic though, in that sense. So therefore,
I think now it's a good time to found a company,
but also to invest. And yeah, I mean, despite
like these kind of tailing capital costs are
harder, which I mentioned earlier, there are
still lots of opportunities and also The last
year, 2023, was actually really good for us.
To be close, we're a second fund of 219 million
and we invested in four really, really good companies.
It's interesting because you mentioned the last
financial crisis and I don't think most people,
some people are aware of it. on a very regular
basis were actually farming back then. Airbnb,
Uber, Deliveroo, just all those companies were
farming there. And people, they were having the
same difficulties accessing capital that you
do nowadays. So you're right, it's 100 % of the
time to go is now, right? It's just starting
out because you're much more likely to be successful
than to wait for the good times to happen. So
yeah, definitely, if people want to reach out
to you, how can they do so? Yeah, please reach
out via LinkedIn. Maybe you can link my name
in the show notes. It's Natalie. And yeah, let
me to hear from you guys and please send any
text if you have them. I'm happy to have a look
at them. That's it. Thank you so much for your
time. It's been very insightful. Thank you. Thank
you also. It was a pleasure to meet you. This
podcast is also sponsored by startupnetworks
.co .uk. Startup Networks, it's an online forum
where you can find all the resources you need
to run your startup, from grants to investors
to tips and tricks on how to be successful in
your startup. This podcast is sponsored by OpenExperts
.com. OpenExperts is a place to go if you're
looking to talk with top experts from around
the world. That is open -expert .com