Have you ever had an idea for a physical product that you just knew had the potential to change the world? Maybe it was something you dreamt up in your garage or a solution to a problem you encountered in your daily life. Whatever it was, you knew it was a winner. If only you can turn that idea into something... Well, you are not 📍 alone! Countless entrepreneurs and innovators have stood exactly where you stand filled with passion and drive, but unsure of where to begin, and that's where "The Builder Circle" comes in. My name is Sera Evcimen and I'm a mechanical engineer, hardware enthusiast, and hardware mentor. I've had the privilege of working with numerous hardware companies that are passionate about solving some of the biggest challenges in the world. And I will be your host as we explore the exciting and complex world of physical product development.   Welcome to the builder circle. And today on our episode, we have Lauren Menard and Bailey Mishler from prowl studio. PROWL studio is an industrial design and research studio that is creating new solutions for people in the planet by employing materials, processes, and technology more responsibly. They focus on regenerative design and regenerative materials. So I'll be talking to both Lauren and Bailey about. Their thoughts on when it is appropriate to incorporate industrial design and the product development cycle and why it's important as well as do a deep dive into a material selection processes and how better to incorporate regenerative materials so that the impact on climate is. As not negative, but even positive. And, as per usual, at the end, I will have a TL;DL section called too long. Didn't listen, where I will summarize all the key takeaways. So that you can. 📍 Get them quickly and move on with your day. If you don't have time. And you can always come back to listen more here on this episode. Without further ado. I leave you with Bailey and Lauren. Hello and welcome to the builder circle. I am so excited to have Lauren Menard and Bailey Mishler here from prowl studio. I would love for you guys to give some background on what prowl studio does and what your individual backgrounds are so lauren let's start with you. Yeah. PROWL is an industrial design and strategy studio and we are just focused on helping companies meet their climate goals through product design. PROWL started out a frustration by Bailey and myself because we came from the world of design and felt that everywhere that we worked, we didn't feel like people had the tools or the knowledge to push their climate initiatives. So we figured we'd be loud and proud about it and, Go out into the world and do it ourselves. My background started in fashion at the very beginning of my career. It then took a winding path through footwear and furniture back to certain things. I have a winding path in comparison to Bailey, but what's remained consistent is that I've always been the material person in the room. Material obsessed, material nerd, material, quote, unquote expert, even though I'm not a climate, or, sorry, I'm material scientist. But yeah, that's been my experience. I've worked for companies as big as Adobe, and I had clients as big as Google and as small as startups. So all over the world. That's really cool. And Bailey is her co-founders. So Bailey, if you could also introduce yourself and give a little bit of a background. Yeah, absolutely. Industrial designer by education and degree and really have been deep in that world of industrial design throughout my entire career. Funny enough, I didn't even know what industrial design was until I got to college, but I always knew that I would pursue an applicable creative path. But in getting into industrial design in school, I really fell in love with it from the problem solving aspect and a forked mentality in my journey. I really fell in love with the making side. So while not as extensive materials as Lauren I think that intimacy with materials has been something I've been really passionate about and falling in love with the wood shop and the metal shop and building furniture particularly as well as recognizing that design. Most of my career up till now has been really rooted in commercial furniture. I got a job working at Coalesce pretty recently after graduating, which is a a brand within Steelcase Inc. It's actually where Lauren and I met. Where our professional and personal journey began That's awesome. Well, I completely agree. And I think it is really important. I had the pleasure of meeting Lauren and Bailey both through a conference that we all attended at, that was held by Baukunst. And they have a wonderful presentation around how material selection and the process of designing starts with the impact that it has on the environment and thinking through that impact. It was really interesting to hear about. And as a mechanical engineer, and my mechanical designer, myself. I haven't gone through multiple design cycles on things. I never really stopped to think about the climate piece of it. It was always around like form fit and function and nothing really beyond that, because most of the time. Designers are so desperate to get the strongest material or the material that's going to last the longest in terms of forces they're subject to, but never really thinking about, oh, like what's going to happen after, after, this is commissioned and potentially is no longer servicing. Obviously, this is more on the very mechanical engineering side of things, but. I never thought to think of, oh, um, okay. The steel is going to be produced, which is going to utilize a lot of energy and water, and it's going to create a lot of scraps that never get used. Some, some manufacturers are okay with it. Where, they like reutilize the scraps, but most of the time it just gets discarded so I think it's very eye-opening and interesting to think about, when I listened to, you both go through your presentation. And so going into the importance of industrial design, I feel like I look at stuff and it looks gorgeous and beautiful, and I'd be able to maybe make a comment on it. But I feel like the design process that I've been a part of, I've never really thought about industrial design immediately and that I think. Of that. That is a flawed approach. So I guess I'd love to get your take on the importance of industrial design and the chain of product development. And when it's the best time to introduce. Thought of industrial design. We've worked on projects in our career and with prowl. From the moment a brand is created and no product exists yet we've tapped into things when there's a full portfolio of products and then they're looking for a, it's no longer called this for obvious reasons, but like a me too product, which is we need to add this to our portfolio because everyone else is doing it. And so in the process of usually it's marketing in a brand or a founder saying, we need this and we need this product. More often than not, design comes in first, right? There needs to be a perspective on what the user is using it for what the behaviors are related to this product, what are its cultural implications, and then that will inform what this thing ultimately becomes. We also, I think what's unique about our design process is we like to think about, we say that we begin at the end. So when we begin our design process, we like to think about the end of a product's life at the same time that we're thinking about it being new. I know that's a bit weird because designers and founders and engineers don't wanna think about whatever they're designing. No longer being relevant, no longer being useful. But we know by now that lessons learned, this does happen. We believe that it's important for design to be coming into a project at conception at the same time that engineering is coming in. If engineering and design are not parallel, a lot of things can be lost. And you end up in these awkward moments of, ah, how do we fit this? How do we make this look right? How do we, and then both aesthetic and functional decisions and material decisions are being made in really awkward times. And usually there's no time, right? So something is lost. So I believe that the ideal scenario would be in parallel from the beginning. Would you agree with that? Yeah. I think, I would say that conventional processes usually have these more milestone handoff phases Right. you'd say are, industrial design bakes up the concept and hands it off to engineering. And I think that flow is, the, as I said, conventional path to date. I think for prowl. In order to better apply, a new novel material, a less toxic material, more responsible form, a new manufacturing process, like without having an engineer. More upstream it can be clunky and a little bit harder to implement. So I think those are pros approach and to maybe just the world at large. And I think going back to your question about the importance of industrial design in general to the production of goods I think what this isn't, I can't really point to something in my education specifically or in my experiences specifically that form this exactly, but I would say that. The strengths of an industrial designer and their role in the process is really about synthesizing many points of view The quantitative to the qualitative, like sitting at the intersection of business, marketing, manufacturing on all those nuances within to make the most informed decision, that importance is often overlooked in in weighing so many different variables, Including needing to know things like, your world, Sera of, the performance aspects and how things are gonna get made. It's like we need to have some light scale understanding of that to make our decisions too. Yeah, I think oftentimes, and this is a bias that I come across and I've definitely had it myself. Is that industrial design or the process of industrial design almost is regarded as beautification. Whereas. As you said when done. Right. It's actually nice. Not quite that, from what I understand, it's supposed to be the bridge between, what you're trying to solve. , so there's always a problem that's being solved for products and, who it's being solved for. So the user studies aspect and the psychology behind what a product means to a person and what it needs to look like in order to serve the absolute, best purpose that it can because you can mechanical design the living heck out of something. And it'll. Function incredibly well likely. However, it could be the absolute ugliest thing. Where, our iPhones are a great example where you can make an iPhone work and it could look absolutely horrible, but because of its sleek, look, the entire user engagement with it changes and it amplifies the impact of what apple tried to do. Because if they had created a product that was not easy to handle or clunky or poorly designed where it doesn't make you feel all these fuzzy, warm feelings when you're using it, It would have made people less likely to use it. And the entire technology would have suffered because of that part. That's missing. So, this is interesting to think about. And I'm personally one to always want to learn more of how industrial designers could be engaged better. And I think you're spot on with involving early, because oftentimes this is the case with systems integration, right? When you have a team that's developing different systems and different designs that are supposed to go together, you are supposed to have everyone in the loop early on, even even have design meetings where everyone shows their designs to make sure no one's bleeding in each other's areas and so on and so forth where with industrial design, it's the same thing. Say someone's designing something and they're assuming a box, but then. Industrial designer is going to make that into a curved surface and that's not going to work for it if they assume a box until the end point and then everything's prototype, they tested it. And now industrial designers are coming and saying, the users are not going to use this. It looks bad it makes sense to involve earlier. Okay. I want to kind of shift gears into what Lauren was talking about regarding materials, because material selection. Does happen relatively early in the design process. And so I guess the question is when going through the material selection process, first of all, What is regenerative materials? We talked about regenerative materials. And how can people find regenerative materials and how can , the sustainable material selection process be introduced to existing design processes yeah, we were actually just working on crafting our one sentence, what is regenerative design? Which unfortunately is still a work in progress, but not what is regenerative design, but what it is to us. Us and point blank, rather than asking how we can do less harm. What we're doing with our design process is we're asking how we can do the most good. That's bare minimum or what way to describe it. But essentially in the material realm, everything that we have manufactured with from the beginning of the industrial age, if not before then to now, has been about manipulating the earth, going and grabbing something from the earth, using physics to turn it into something that functions for us as humans and serves a purpose. And what we're challenging with our practices and employing more responsible materials is asking the question how can we. Take two paths, essentially, one path with materials is there's an opportunity. Right now, we see it as an opportunity, also as a necessity to take what's already been produced. Virgin materials, they can't go to a landfill. Virgin plastic is the most obvious version of this, right? Or like zinc and other materials that are used in hardware. How can we take those and extend their life between the time that the product is being used to go into landfill? Because when it ends up in landfill, it's going to expel to toxic chemicals, and we just don't need that, right? So how do we keep it circulating, keep it useful? That's one side of the coin and the other, and that's one pathway we need to take. We think that's the most practical for companies because it depends on the company, but. , if you are producing durable goods, more than likely circular materials are gonna be what you wanna reach for. Cuz you don't wanna be a pioneer in the biomaterial realm. For example, if you want certain aspects of your product to function in a specific way. And if you are trying to move fast, because circular materials are something that are right here waiting for you ready to be produced. could you give a few examples of circle circular materials? Yeah. Some examples right now we're working with a product called Really, which is a recycled textile board. It's taking waste textile com, packing it into essentially an M D F alternative, and that's created by a company called Quadrat. They're a textile company based in, I believe, Denmark and Regrind, P L a. is probably the most basic, and some climate activists say that circular materials aren't doing enough. That's for example, recycled, p l a, ah, whatever they're doing, recycled p l a, and then people are critical of that. What we need to do something with that. Like we need to do something with what we've already produced. So circularity is needed. We can't just produce alternatives constantly and think that, ah, everything that we already did is just going to end up somewhere. So that's the circular side. Bailey, I don't know if you wanna speak to the bio side of things You're killing it. Keep going. Um, But so there's the circular side of materials, but then on the. On the alternative side of materials, there are also two pathways. There's biofabrication and there are biosynthetics and biosynthetics are made in a lab. They're created to usually one for one replace a conventional toxic material. An example of this would be like a yarn, like spider silk that's made from yeast to replace nylon, Example. And then the other one is biofabrication, which is the new list. It, that word comes from the wor world of pharmaceuticals. A lot of medicines are bio-fabricated, but what it means is you're just letting the material do its thing as it does in nature, and you put it in a mold, for example, and let it grow. Or you put bacteria on a. type of material and let it dye at a certain color. Just like letting nature do its thing, but in a controlled environment. So those are the pathways. A lot of people are nervous about the bio side of things, and we encourage those clients to go the circular path first and learn from that. And then maybe go the bio side. So I have a question about that. So the, one of the biggest issues when it comes to product design for a lot of startups or even big companies is everyone is looking at the bottom line where circular materials and bio-fabricated and biosynthesis have a very high cost associated with them. Is that a myth or is that true? And is there any way around that? Could it even be the case where because it's circular or recycled that it could be cheaper? Are there any people working on. Bailey, do you wanna speak? Yeah, I. I wouldn't say it's not a myth. , I think with any material, the, it varies and I think we are certainly relying on new material manufacturers to catch up. So I do, we ourselves come up against, not always necessarily a cost issue, but a scale issue, which does couple with cost of course, but Lauren mentioned the really product they are much further along in the development. You can purchase their material now which is. Very different from someone who's still developing, a toxic alternative or a bio-fabricated process that does this take time to perfect and commercialize and make us scale the way that we've done with many other materials through the last century? So yes, it's true and it's a little tricky, but it's not one thing that we are trying to do as a studio is help advocate for push, accelerate some of these ma material companies so that the world can use them and we can use them, and it does start to break down some of that barrier to entry. We've seen generally like a 15 to 25% markup on these materials. It's primarily because r and d takes so long and they're, a lot of them aren't scalable yet But what we are seeing is that a lot of companies, they want the marketing story. So sometimes for, they'll do a small run of things like this first to test the waters and see if they, it's what's called like the peacock product, which is the one that pulls people in and it's ah, check this out. So we're seeing that happen where they'll do one of these crazier new material adoptions. But essentially when it comes down to it, a lot of these, a lot of the companies we work with, but I forget what the number is, Bailey, like some something crazy, like 90% of Fortune 500 companies have climate pledges. One way that they can meet those is by adopting healthier materials, depending on what their climate pledge is. So that cost is. Comparable to maybe replacing one of their sources of energy with renewables. Like you can, it all ends up on the same balance sheet, if that makes sense. Yeah I think that's super interesting. And the 15 to 20% markup is actually less than I thought it would be, and I feel like that's probably something that needs to be better publicized. And another thing is what Bailey mentioned of just how far along these companies are. So right now I feel like we are in this kind of revolution, right? Where everyone's kind of waking up seeing that global warming is not going anywhere, and there needs to be truly changes on the boots, on the ground. People, not just obviously big companies have a huge responsibility and most of the issues with global warming are caused by big companies, but like a collective of small companies could also make an impact. And when that is the case with Currently the, regenerative material market, having to markup is probably just a symptom of not being far along enough. And as the demand increases for them and they are forced to scale, those markups will go down, right? It's just like basic like minimum order quantity stuff. When you are buying uh, materials or any type of product from big big companies that sell these it's like at sh very low quantities, it's gonna be the most expensive. And then as they ramp up their production, the price per unit will decrease. There just needs to be like a list of people signed up to use them. So I, I think it is incredibly important and I think in the the biggest sectors that are. doing manufacturing as a result of their design is in engineering. I think where my, by engineering, more so in the hardware product space where there's a lot of products that use like injection molded plastic for the, their designs. And then there's obviously like aircraft designs, which uses like a lot of steel and aluminum, hopefully not steel, because those would make the aircrafts really heavy. But like aluminum and aluminum manufacturing has a huge carbon footprint which a lot of like carbon capture technologies are coming about for aluminum specifically even. But I digress. Basically what I'm trying to say is I think in designing products, startups do have a bigger impact and in the design process and in the material selection process. Having that in mind I think is a big investment in the future. And if there is a huge kind of migration towards these regenerative materials, at the end of the day, it might actually reduce the cost. I think one of the interesting thoughts, and maybe you, y'all have ideas on this is I'm thinking truly as a mechanical engineer right now, are there any issues with material properties when they are circulated or they're bio-fabricated or they're biosynthesis? I, is there any, are there any research or studies that are being done on that? Does anyone lose out on, I don't know, like structural integrity strain, stuff like that? I feel like that would be a really good way to convince. The engineering field to start to really consider this as a path forward. Yeah, I just, a perfect example of this that's existed forever in ways. If you go to Asia and you see a construction site, you're gonna see bamboo trusses. You're gonna see bamboo scaffolding. In America, steel and there's a reason Asia still uses bamboo. It's because it can be a direct competitor for perform. with steel, yet bamboo grows at an extremely fast rate. It's a regenerative material itself. And that, I just see that as such an obvious example that people just sometimes don't think about or aren't exposed to. Although if you're in hardware and you get shipped to China constantly, you see it all the time. Right. I just wanna give that as an example, , why do you think it isn't implemented? Do you feel like it's I don't know, like a civil engineering culture thing? Are there any downsides to it? It feels like it. In Asia. It's I don't know which country you're talking about, but there are a lot of like earthquake prone places, so they would be even more careful and diligent when building buildings. So I'm just wondering, I wonder why that transition never happened. What got in the way. I, I wanna hear Bailey's take on this, but my take is that essentially western cultures, maybe all cultures honestly, that are that have been industrialized. We have this new psychological thing with trust, and unless something looks perfect and manufactured it, we don't trust it. And so we've gone from desiring and trusting things that were from the natural world. Even our food comes like we feel this way about our food now. And if there are slight imperfections, then it's seen as less desirable or it will break down too quickly. Even if the performance is one to. . . Yeah. Trust is much better than how I was framing it in my mind of just fear-based approach and Many. for better and for worse, like regulations, rules, compliant structures that products architecture, all have to face. And even while things on paper are as good, if not better for so many reasons, I think, yeah, there's a lot of like operating and fear of, getting in trouble or getting sued or, I think all the things that Lauren said too are just like spot on as far as we now expect this because rules demanded it sometime ago. But the performance is not like when we're designing something, we're putting. , like one of our principles is that we, just like we put the regeneration of a product or regeneration of a material after its life at the equal way of the design, we're also ensuring that function and performance are not lost. And just because something is made out of a new material doesn't mean that it's function in the time that you need it for. Let's be very clear, plastic lasts forever. It to? Absolutely not. So it's also about our expectations of a material, which is something that we're challenging in our Milan show this year, which is it's all around fast furniture and something lasting, quote unquote, as long as you need it to. Interesting. Yeah. I think , there's a huge component in all of this of culture, Yep. doubt of a consumer's perspective from a business's perspective from a manufacturing perspective that we are able to consume as much as we want when we want a convenience culture. And it's cheap. and it's cheap and it's been disregard everything that has been made to last as a durable is in fact durable forever and shift the, there's so much work to try and shift the what you need for only as long as you need it. And that's certainly a tricky thing to combat. As we just said, with so many regulations and rules and compounded culture that we are standing on of. expectations. Yeah, that, that's a very good point. And I think I don't think it ever really even crossed my mind when thinking like, oh, when I'm designing this, like, how long does it have to last? It's always about how long can it last ? And that shift just breaks my brain a little. Because as an engineer you're always like, oh, like how many life cycles can this have? And the more you maximize, the better the design is. And to a degree if, but the metrics that people care about, oftentimes it's if you over-engineer it, that means that you spent too much money or you're using too much material and it's expensive. It's always around cost and simplification. And I feel like the introduction metric of climate impact is going to be necessary. And I also had a point around just the manufacturing sector in general. So you said a lot of this is really related to culture. I completely agree with that and I think one of the biggest issues I think humanity faces at the moment is that everything in our lives is digitized and getting more efficient. And like AI is being introduced, which is like throwing every a curve ball into a lot of stuff and we're getting faster and more digital and , but manufacturing as a sector is very much still struggling to get into that realm. There is, there hasn't been massive change in processes or the way that factories even operate. And in terms of manufacturing, the only kind of innovation, the most of the innovation I've seen have been in like additive manufacturing and different types of focuses on how to make something. But the operations in actual building stuff in scale has almost stayed the same for a few decades. And so changing that culture e on the end game where, like you said, beginning at the end, it's like the end isn't even close to where design processes and the culture around. Everything else has changed. So there, there's this catch that needs to happen. . Yeah. I think that's certainly, like systemic change takes time. Certainly. And I definitely see the shift in manufacturing being a systemic problem. Yeah. and I think that's going back to how we approach materials and cycle. . I think that a shift that will come more broad sweeping first is on the circular adoption side, where a company that's run, maybe they shift to, health, healthier energy sources, for example, could still operate with the same flow, but maybe they introduce a takeback or a recycling or a closed loop within themselves that doesn't totally break their model completely. But can still be the next step to, that more radical change within the manufacturing sector. Yeah. that I think is lost in a lot of the recirculation conversations that Bailey just mentioned is that when you are, when you've designed and engineered something to be taken back, although you're gonna have to set up that whole system to take it back, it's a, it's another business model added to your existing. Like you, you'll have things going out the door and then you'll have things coming in the door. And those things aren't gonna be in perfect condition. They're not gonna be they're gonna have to be, probably be disassembled and dispersed, but, What I think is missing from that conversation is the fact that you now have your material, so you're not having to re resource. You are your own supply chain at that point for certain aspects of the product. So does that if you're talking about a microchip situation, like that's probably not going to apply. But if you're talking about a casing of something, it's a perfect example. It just means that brand is gonna have to commit to that material for a long time. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point , because change, once you get into kind of a, your final iteration of a design and the material has been selected and people have been spun up and manufacturers have been spun up, that's a change order. And. That is a big deal that has a lot of domino effects. And I think that's really important to call out in your design process because the design decisions you make really, you carry with you for a long time. And in order to change, it's usually another iteration. You have to spin up a different supplier and the domino effect of it is quite significant. So being very mindful of that in the early stage will serve companies better and especially ones that are trying to be nimble with cash, even because you might say, oh, no, we don't want to use any regenerative materials. We. We want to save up to 15 to 20% markup, but then you realize the material selected. Isn't working for you. And in a few 📍 years, or in a few months, maybe. The markup is going to be much more. This podcast is presented to you by Pratik, a startup advising and coaching company that is geared to help hardware entrepreneurs get their ideas from a napkin sketch into a lab and out into the world. Podcast Break I think that this is a really good place to do a little bit of a break. , and so I wanted to do a podcast break where we talk about something a little bit more fun and less serious. This is a segment I like to call product horror stories where it's, where I ask my guests about their particular field and kind of. A horror story that they witnessed. It doesn't have to be around industrial design. If you, have a separate example. , but if you've ever seen, I guess we talked about. In the beginning of the episode, we said not involving industrial designers early on could cause a lot of issues. Have you seen any horror stories of that exactly happening? I'm sure you have Oh my God. So many also the flip side of that, like when something goes down all the way through design dev and then engineers just take it and run with it, and then it ends up nothing like the design intent. That's another thing that happens. I don't think, I don't know this is maybe not a horror story, but something that has stuck with me that just came to my mind about a minute ago was when I was working for a very large global cycling brand and we were working on this new innovative footwear. Cycling footwear is extremely performance oriented. Like every single angle matters and you have to, you wanna make it as light as possible for all the, what you call weight weenies out there who care a lot about the weight. So there's like lots of carbon fiber in there. It's very much like they're never ever an environmentally friendly product. But we were in, a group of us, were in China working on this new design of a shoe and this new way of closing a shoe that was extremely performance and didn't involve any hardware. Cuz a lot of these shoes have hardware and such. We get back, we're noodling on it and. we're taking our time with it a little bit like it. We had an aggressive pace, but then about two months later, the competitor brand launched almost exactly the same product, and none of us had been talking to each other. , I don't know if that's a horror story, but it's one that stuck with me forever and it gives me this urgency, like need to be first, That's super interesting. I guess this goes back to the great minds think alike concept but that's fascinating because usually in hardware that doesn't really happen often. Right. Because it's usually the fear, with software products where, oh, someone's going to beat you to the punch and they're going to be the first. Why did that happen? Do you think, was it the same design? It was almost exactly the same. And. , there's a collective conscious, someone was saying that there's this phenomenon where inventions happen at two different parts of the world at the same time. But one usually gets the spotlight anyway, there, there is a phenomenon that exists in the world where that does happen. But it's interesting in design because forms are a sign of the time and materials are a sign of the time. So if one place is adopting something and it's becoming cool, then you see it happening and then people start drawing similar things. That's why all things are everyone. Like I don't believe in the word time. Anyone feel free to debate me, but I think that everything, yeah, sure. Some things can be relevant for long periods of time and, but they always go out and come back, and so I think that everything is, that's designed is a, it's culturally relevant too now, and I think that's just part of how that happened. Bailey do you have another story? I don't know. Yeah, , I did wanna share this. Funny, this is just like social media, but I follow this Instagram called Please Hate these things. And a lot of the examples are not so much product focused, it's a lot more like interior and di i a homemaker vibe, but a lot of them kind of showcase like a complete, fail and thinking ahead when planning. And I think that, in, in some ways it just like represents. Going back to the beginning, like what I feel is so important about our role in thinking holistically and thinking ahead and considering like all the details and the bigger picture at the same time. And so this Instagram, again, it's just more adjunct, but it's like just I love following it cuz it's just it reminds me of why we're pretending what we're doing, even if it's not focused particularly on like environmental impact. And yeah not a particular product fail, but just so many examples, big and small of not connecting all the dots. Yeah, no, that totally makes sense. Okay. Cool. So getting back into, I guess, of things that I've been thinking about since we've been talking around reduction of waste and in design, I think one of the separate paths that designers and engineers or product developers can take is also trying to come up with designs that require the least amount of manufacturing steps. Where, because as again, we said in the beginning, there is a lot of scrap that gets produced. So if you have beyond regenerative materials and reusable materials, having the metric of reduction of scrap, for example, choosing additive manufacturing, instead of subtractive manufacturing is potentially one way to do that. I would actually really love for you guys to talk about the chair and also potentially answer the question of are there any other methods that you've come across yeah, I guess what that exercise was, so with this company also based in Oakland, they're in the Bay they're called model number. They do large scale 3D printing, and they also have a wood mill. And so they approached us to do something with them, and we saw these machines in the same room, side by side. And one was milling wood and producing dust, and then one was 3D printing. And so we saw an opportunity to create this dining set that we called like the endless loop, but the parts for the table were milled and then the saw dust was collected. This was the hardest part of the project actually, was getting people to not throw away the saw dust. saws can be composted, but oftentimes it's not. And when organic matter ends up in a landfill, methane goes into the anyway. So we were like these machines are side by side. There's an opportunity to collect and use, therefore you have a dining set and nothing is lost. And that is this tiny little circular loop that we thought was very successful. And so we are, we're now thinking about that and all of the products that we're designing and understanding how lost from a subtractive process, like maybe we don't need to remove subtractive processes, but maybe we take what's lost and implement it to another part of the product. and not only is that an amazing emotional story that people can get behind, but it's also very practical. Going back to that, not having to source things. The only problem with that is then usually scrap or shavings need to be processed to be right? There's some post-processing which is another process. Yeah. . Yeah, I think it's just like one in that example, it's again, maybe going back to that psychological side of reframing what once was waste or you would've treated as waste as something valuable and usable within your supply chain. That's basically free cuz you already bought it and now you're just gonna throw it away and buy more. I think that's a big space that's open in manufacturing where people maybe one of the listeners will be inspired to go down that path of like, how can the scraps of manufacturing processes be efficiently? Reprocessed and reintroduced into the chain and utilized in some different capacity or even the same capacity. I, another example that Lauren gave is similar in my mind where it's like the scraps of textiles being pressed into becoming blocks. Like what a brilliant idea. I feel that the more that those, the thing is at the end of the day, everything gets pre-processed before getting manufactured. Everything, the steel it's, it doesn't come in a block from, you don't just go into the jungle and find a block of steel . It's a very involved process to get it to where it needs to be. And there's a lot of chemistry that happens that's beyond my, my scope of skillset. But so I don't think it's that crazy to think that could be a future where, Scraps are reutilized. I I love that video. Definitely pe people who are listening, check it out. It is absolutely stunning. And they explain the process really well, and it's such a smart idea. I absolutely loved it. And then I guess finally the thing I wanted to talk to you guys about is who do you feel is really diving into this, like regenerative materials and u utilizing of that in design and who is hesitating in the field is outta curiosity. I don't think anyone's diving face first into it. I think everyone's a little bit hesitant. Especially with all of the supply chain issues that were happening during Covid, people are really, as Bailey was saying, and making decisions out of fear. But what we're seeing is it goes back to people, companies who have climate pledges, they all have a date attached to them. As time has passed where these companies have not worked towards them, they, a lot of companies just said, we're gonna be carbon neutral by 2035 or whatever they're saying they're making these claims, they're starting to wake up. Cause a lot of those claims. Stated in, or the pledges were stated in the past couple of years, and a lot of people are coming to terms with, oh no, we have a lot of work to do. And so the adoption of healthier materials, and again, want to make sure this is crystal clear, a lot of regenerative materials already exist. Like Cork for example. There are a bunch of regenerative materials that are not new and in r and d, they're, they've been around, right? FSC certified lumber, like there are a bunch that are fantastic that we should be using more of. But a lot of companies are seeing the materials of their products as part of that initiative. So companies who have, who are loud and proud about those initiatives, you're seeing them working to adopt these things faster. You're also seeing them a, again, back to the peacock product. Seeing companies dabble with, for example, Nike did Space Hippie. That was their, they did made a trash shoe, and that was them saying, here's our take on this. They were really loud about it. People freaked out, they sold out. And then now Nike is applying the space hippie sold to a bunch of their sneakers. So I think we're gonna see a lot more of that from the larger corporations where they do one product that is Louder on the sustainability front, and then they trickle in into the other things as demand rises. . And I feel like because the, I feel like the new generation and even some older generations are truly waking up to the climate crisis and user behavior and consumer behavior is changing to tip over towards more climate friendly products. So that probably helps companies and they can even leverage more marketing and more sales from just that angle, which is good. certainly. I think um, I, I mean might be a whole nother Karen worms, but I I think that the marketing side, there's a lot of we don't want people to be making statements that they're not gonna keep their promise to, or, just doing it as a marketing ploy, you. Greenwashing. But I think that what we are seeing is that if a company is willing to put themselves that far out there and have such a more informed consumer base, hear that and hold them to that, even if they say something before the back is caught up with that statement, I feel like that's fuel for their fire act on it. Like they said it might not be fully true yet, but now they've said it and they have to do something about it. And so in some ways, like they're leading themselves down their own path because of external demands on them, from legislation, from consumers, Yeah. just recognizing, this crisis we're in for the. Yeah. And I feel like it's I always think about this. The way that we characterize success in product development or innovation right now, I think is slightly fundamentally broken because making a product is one thing, but then if you're not making it in a way that is sustainable or is is if you're making it in a way that it hurts the planet, I feel like that is a ultimate failure, and I feel like that culture needs to start coming about. And will hopefully change the way that product development transpires organically because it shouldn't be regarded as success. If at the end of the day you are producing a bunch of plastic, a bunch of carbon while trying to quote, unquote solve a problem. You can't solve a problem by creating a bigger one in a very different field. Thank you both so very much. I do want to give one last is there, so the target audience for this podcast is people who are trying to build, whether it is a single person that has a really great idea that they're trying to build a product or design it or it's like entrepreneurs that are in truly the thick of it and are trying to get to scale or even try their first prototype. Do you have any advice to them right now if they're in the beginning of that process that they can employ so that they can get to a successful and sustainable product? Our operating ethos is we begin at the end and if we could get everyone to adopt that mentality of anything they're building, think about the end. What does. if their decisions possibly lead to in scenario play that that'd be like my first . Just ask yourself that question at bare minimum to put yourself on a path towards making better decisions and more responsible products. Mm-hmm. Drop. think that's great. I love that. Pro is here to help you on any of your needs navigating this murky world. little. Pro plug. of course. it Amazing. Thank you both so very much. I am so happy that you are here in the builder circle and I am so grateful for your time thanks Sera. We appreciate it. Great to be here. Thanks for hosting. Tl;DL Hello. If you've made it this far, you are in the TLD L section, the too long didn't listen section of this podcast. Where I go through all of the key takeaways and key learnings from the episode. So that if you don't have enough time, you can come here and you can get all the key takeaways. And then when, when you do have time, you can come back and listen to the full episode. All right. So in this episode, we talked a lot about industrial design and regenerative materials. As I mentioned in the intro. And I'll go right into kind of the key takeaway bullet points that I was able to extract from my conversation with Lauryn and Bailie. So the strengths of an industrial designer and their role in the process is really about synthesizing many points of view, the quantitative and the qualitative sitting from in the intersection of business marketing, manufacturing, and understanding all of those nuances within to make the most informed decision. And this importance is often overlooked. And weighing, , several different variables. So the industrial designers really, , act as a bridge between these, , cross-functional. Systems and in building a product. So it's important to involve them relatively early so that, there are people that are asking the right questions in your product development. Second bullet point gets right into that. It's, it's important to involve industrial designer early in the process, rather than later, as some system requirements will be affected by their implementation of user studies, marketing and business. And oftentimes what happens is because industrial designers are brought in later. , certain functionalities need to be rehashed or certain systems need to be redesigned. So involving all key stakeholders early is just a good. Rule of thumb. Some engineers. And mechanical engineers, just like myself, are often taught to prioritize. The function and the fit more so than the form, and industrial designers. Also look at form fit and function, but they do really focus on the form. And the reason this is important is because even though a technology is great, , it could potentially suffer if the form isn't the right form for either the consumer or even if it's a larger industrial. Application. There are certain parameters that people care about. So the form really matters and the technology. Could potentially suffer if the industrial design is not incorporated properly. One example was an iPhone. And if an iPhone didn't have its sleek, look, it probably the technology. Of, like swiping and assistive touch, wouldn't be, as available to us and as, , popular it is right now. And then we shifted gears into regenerative materials and a conversation around that. So regenerative materials are defined as materials that not only not only don't harm the environment at the end of their life cycle, but also potentially provide some good. Circular materials are materials that are able to be processed, to be used multiple times and potentially on different applications. So one example Lauren gave was old tech textiles that are pressed into building blocks and used in buildings. So we talked about two different concepts called biofabrication biosynthetic material. , which the way they differ is how they are created. Biosynthesis is when, something is created. For as a one for one replacement of a toxic material. So an example for that is a yarn called spider silk, that is made up of yeast that is supposed to. Replace a yarn that is plastic based. And then biofabrication is when you take a material and put it into a mold where it does its natural process. So an example is putting a bacteria on a material and let it die. The material. Or for example, there are two incredible startups that I've had the pleasure of meeting. One is called Sage. Where they use, , Plants to make, textile dyes and then another company that I've had the pleasure of mentoring through Techstars, called S lab. Who are using. , micellar, , in order to produce, , a alternative for styrofoam. , which is made from mushrooms and hemp. So that those are some excellent. Examples for this bio materials usually only have a markup of 15 to 25%, which is not as high as common belief. The problem is the scalability economy. So. There aren't enough people working on this and there are no. Enough people that are requesting this. So the material amount is not high in the world. With higher demand, this should change. So what needs to change is the culture around material selection during design processes. Which is what the next bullet point really dives into. There are cultural issues that enable , non regenerative and pollution generating materials, namely the perception of manufactured versus natural. So , the issue with perfectionism, Basically, if something is manufactured, it looks better. When something is natural, it looks less nice as, so people tend to go down a more. Perfect solution rather than a solution. , the issue with convenience culture, which is like buying water bottles is one of those. So these cultures need to shift, so that more demand is given to regenerative materials. There are interesting ways of using scrap instead of just discarding them prowl, utilize the scraps of a wood shop to make a chair that was a hundred percent reuse material that was going to be wasted. This is merely one example of how we should be making environmental decisions when it comes to design. There's always also an argument against regenerative materials, that there is a lot of post-processing. However, we need to remember that most materials such as aluminum and steel also get processed a lot before coming into the hands of machine shops. So the only difference there is that there's existing infrastructure for the post-processing to actually happen where there isn't for other materials that are potentially better for the planet. So this might be an open space for innovation. Hopefully this sparked some interest in inspiration in my listeners. To invest in infrastructure to post-process potential scraps. And finally ending on the note of the operating ethos of PROWL is to begin at the end. It's important to adopt the mentality so that every decision and product development has a bigger picture and incorporates not only the impact on people's lives, but also on the planet we live in at the early stage. So understanding, looking at a product and saying, where is this going to end up? And how long does this have to exist in the world? And making material decisions according to that. 📍 So with that, I will wrap up. RT LDL. I really hope you enjoyed the episode and I hope that you get some key takeaways to ponder and think about in your product development journey and in incorporating potentially regenerative materials in your product. Thank you so much The opinions and information shared on this podcast are for informational purposes only. We always recommend that you seek professional advice before taking any action related to your business or personal ventures. Thank you for listening, and I hope that you enjoyed the episode