Welcome to Buy Size Little Marketing. Erin, it's
2025. It's mid February, early Feb. And this
is the first episode I'm recording. I've taken
a little break. I was really excited when Katie
and Andre line this up for us to meet. I'm kicking
off season three now, I think, you know, north
of a hundred episodes. And so I'm excited to
have you on as the first guest of 2025. But I
want to jump right in. Dental recruiters. It's
in the name. I have some idea of what you do,
you know, you're out of Minneapolis, which is
lovely. We were just talking about what a great
place it is to raise a family. Tell me the journey
you've gone on to, you know, how the heck, who
wakes up one day and says, I really love recruiting.
I'm going to, I'm going to go recruit. I had
a buddy that went to Harvard. I went to UTA.
It's not, not the same, but he said, I can distill
down a Harvard education in two sentences, market
friction is market opportunity. And I thought
that was, you know, well said, but it's probably
a good time to be recruiting at the same time
is challenging. But tell me, give me the backstory.
Where's Aaron been? Yeah, so Thank you for having
me, of course. I'm glad to be the first one to
2025. But yeah, so I'm a licensed dental hygienist.
I graduated from the University of Minnesota
School of Dentistry with a degree in dental hygiene.
Right after graduation, I moved to North Carolina.
My husband was in the military and was stationed
there at the time. So I practiced both as a clinical
dental hygienist. And then I was also working
in front office operations. After a couple of
years of that, we moved to Texas where I practiced
both as a full -time clinical hygienist. And
then, so back in 2018, we moved back home to
Minnesota, Minnesota's home. I spent a few more
years practicing in private practice. Then I
transitioned into more of a lead front office
position where I managed everything from business
reports and money, insurance. patient communications.
And it really gave me that diverse perspective
on both the front and the back office of a dental
practice. Then a couple years ago, Shannon and
I connected. We actually were at the same school
of dentistry. She was just kind of a year ahead
of me. So we had known each other for a while.
But since she owns dental recruiters, her and
I connected because she's looking for someone
to run her dental recruiters company. It was
a recruiting and a temporary staffing company
at the time. And then just over a year ago, we
rebranded and shifted our focus entirely on full
cycle permanent recruitment for private dental
practices. And I love it. I have both the clinical
background as well as the business mindset to
help practices succeed with a permanent team.
If you look at the market today versus a year
ago versus maybe five years ago. What are you
seeing out there? As far as kind of what jobs
are looking like? Yeah, what jobs are looking
like? What compensation is looking like? What
are you seeing these offices do? Yeah. And that
has been the biggest shift, I feel like, especially
since COVID. Ultimately, compensation is always
going to be a big piece that grabs people's attention
when it comes to applying for a position. So
my job at Donell Recruiters is really to give
a different balance, to kind of manual or to
balance that compensation strain. So sky high
hourly rates have gotten extremely high over
the... recent years, but where's the ceiling?
Eventually, you know, right now we're seeing
average of $55 an hour for hygienists in the
Twin Cities when reimbursements don't change
and, you know, everything else just doesn't change
as far as expenses in a dental practice. Where's
that ceiling where eventually you're not, it's
not reasonable. It doesn't make sense. So what
we're seeing and What we really talk about, I
know Shannon touched on this with you when she
spoke not too long ago, but many of our practices
that we're working with are incorporating a hygiene
compensation model. Ultimately, it's the idea
of associate dentists are getting paid a percentage
of their production. Right now, dental hygienists
are doing more than they ever have. So, you know,
they're doing, of course, scaling and root cleaning,
laser treatments. pro fees, increased, um, sealants
and fluoride, but also Botox now is in the mix
where hygienists can go in and, you know, ultimately
mark all the places. Doctors just have to come
in and inject. So they're doing more than they
ever have. So that being said too, they can be
compensated similar to a dentist as well. Where
it's different is they're not paid entirely off
of a compensation. Right. off of production,
I should say, hygienists receive a reasonable
base pay. That's where it can kind of stay within
reasonable area for practices to manage. But
then the ceiling is theirs to achieve. So this
doesn't mean that dental hygienists recommend
anything that's beyond their scope of practice,
or that they should recommend any treatment that's
not necessary, but it helps ease the blow for
practices that are just paying the base rate.
You know, ultimately, you don't want a hygienist
that's just doing pro fees day in and day out
and still get this base pay and there's no extra
production coming in. But that's also where we
recommend, you know, implementing other benefits
as well that can attract candidates besides compensation,
right? So this is where we get into welcome bonuses.
And that can be paid, you know, a lot of people
see welcome bonuses and they're like, I'm not
going to pay five grand for a hygienist and then
they're a week in and say, thanks for the free
money. Bye. And that's more, you know, we work
with them about what does that look like? How
can that get paid out throughout the course of
how much time? But, you know, that's an option
holiday pay, including floating holidays, PTO,
medical, dental, you know, those typical benefits,
but also just some fun out of the box benefits,
which is a fun one that we'll see or use, I should
say every once in a while is having your birthday
as a paid holiday or, you know, reimbursement.
If you have a decent commute to work, can we
reimburse mileage and gas money? So kind of some
out of the box things to try to consider too.
So I have a question for you and, you know, I
feel old enough to ask this question. If your
paradigm is, you know, I used to pay my hygienist
$28 an hour, $32 an hour for whatever the number
35. Sure. And now it's 55 and they want more
freedom. That's a lot. If I've only ever done
it one way, it just sounds like anarchy, right?
Like, like I'm just giving away money. Cause
even, even the bonus I'm giving away money. If
I'm giving them their birthday off, I'm paying
them, but I'm not getting their production. It
all wraps up into just more money right it's
some money and freedom but culturally that sounds
if i'm only ever paying thirty five dollars an
hour and if you're here i pay if you're not here
i pay you that's such a huge gap and i acknowledge
that that's a old way of thinking but still it
begs the question of how do you culturally help
that doctor bridge that gap to today right. Right
and that's the, that's the million dollar question
too, is how can we get doctors and practice managers
on board with this whole, you know, what else
besides just throwing money out? So yes, of course,
you know, benefits are money, PTO is money, holidays
are money, welcome bonuses, all that. But ultimately,
how can we balance that where let's get these
good team members for you that have the same
views, same, you know, drive for patient care
where they can ultimately have you produce more
as a practice, where it doesn't seem like it's,
oh my gosh, I'm losing all this money. More so,
you know, okay, well, this is how we treatment
plan. This is how we care for our patients. Here's
our philosophy. And then if we can get everybody
on their team on board with that, which is the
ultimate goal, and ultimately that gap won't
seem as like, well, we're just gonna keep downing
money. So, the argument then, sort of if I'm
distilling down what you're saying is, yes, you
are going to outlay more cash. However, the cash
you outlay is going to be furthered by an increase
in your hygiene production. Perhaps your same
day dentistry, you are going to see a corresponding
rise in overall P &L health of the organization.
Correct. And the same thing. you know, insurance
reimbursements, that's kind of been a sticky
situation too. But ultimately the baseline of
fee for service for an exam or a cleaning or
all that's naturally increasing, you know, rates
increase usually annually, give or take as well.
So there is that theory too. Yeah. If you only,
I say only purposefully, if you only view hygiene
as a place where cleanings happen, then this
is a major mind shift for you because when I
hear you talk it's it's it's less about just
paying more money to keep a hygienist and if
you view that way you're probably coming at it
from a very Not an abundant mindset, right? But
if you're very linear, you're right, but if you
view it as you know what I'm gonna turn my hygiene
into a revenue center and Treat it as such and
have goals as such I can now see where I can
go from just cleanings to it being a revenue
center to give them Yeah. Yes. And exactly. And
that's just it is you don't want to bring on
a team member that's just in that mindset, you
know, of, well, what do you mean? I just want
hour long trophies four days a week for, you
know, like, that's all I want. What do you mean?
Kind of a thing. So that's where it can be more
of a harder shift. But then that's kind of where,
you know, I come in and it's like, OK, hear me
out. Like, it seems aggressive, but. attracting
these people. It's like, okay, like, prove it.
We will give you all these things. We'll do all
these things. But like, prove that you value
our patience and our thing the way that we do.
And you care, I care. So yeah, I think it's just
shifting that mindset, which I, you know, I speak
with a lot of colleges too, and it's kind of,
you know, hey, it's not just a go in and I still
actively practice every once in a while too.
And there's plenty of times where I'll go in
and I'll see patients and I'm like, man, there's
so much that's just getting like, oh, well, we'll
catch it next time. We'll catch it next time.
Or, you know, like not where there's so much
room for kind of better provider relationship
too. Right. Right. Now I have a question. I one
time left my cable company. I obviously a long
time ago when I had cable because they were offering
new people. Yeah. If forever go, if you signed
up new, you got like, you know, six months for
free. but they wouldn't give me six months for
free and I've been around for a long time. Now
flip that on the hygiene side. How are you handling?
I have three hygienists and now I'm hiring a
new one. They're coming in at a much higher rate.
I'm having to advertise at a higher rate. How
am I bridging that gap in the organization of
someone's coming in at 55 bucks an hour and my
God, no one makes it. How are you doing that?
That's a great question because that is a very
common question I get. And ultimately, you know,
what I recommend and suggest is before we even
get an ad out there, because that's your worst
nightmare where you have this ad, it's all these
extravagant promises. You can have your birthday
off and you're the current. Fridays are free
and everyone's like, whoa. And then you're the
hygienist or sister or whatever and all of a
sudden you're scrolling and you're like, wait
a second, this is my practice. I would like to
apply for that job. Correct, I would want that.
What we recommend is, of course, obviously, and
ultimately, if you are going to post an ad with
A, B, and C, your current team, you need to match
that. And that kind of goes into where, you know,
ultimately, if this is the vibe and the kind
of feel that you're going to give out to a new
applicant, like, yes, this is why you should
work for us. This is why you should come in and
pick us above All the other hundreds of offices
that are looking for the exact same candidate.
That's where it comes into it. Yes, you need
to adjust. Those benefits for the whole office,
you know, that I get that question a lot too
with, of course compensation, but medical insurance.
Okay. Well, nobody in my practice needs medical
insurance. I don't want to have to offer to everybody.
Well, I mean, it's kind of going to come with
the territory, but that being said to, you know.
How do you keep your current team retained and
staying? And, you know, you want to just ultimately
create that environment where you want to attract
candidates, but you want to not only retain them,
you want to retain your current team. So that's
where, yes, you want to make a great first impression
when they come in for an in -person interview.
But let's say, you know, what practice needs
to set up that ambience that they can. continue
for everybody else. Is it well organized? Do
you have fresh flowers? Do you have refreshments?
I've even seen where there's massage chairs in
the break room. Like just something that, you
know, what makes your culture and team stand
out and where the rest of your team also feels
just as honored to work there as you're trying
to pursue this next person. I hate to be the
middle -aged, you know, man in the room, but
I am now most days. It's wild. And I find myself,
Aaron caught sometimes between I'll give you
an example. And, and my kids are not old. Uh,
they're 12, 13, 14 now. Um, so they are not old,
right? I mean, this is a relevant within the
last 15 year story. I remember I worked at a
large company and I told my manager that my wife
was, you know, we're having, we're having kids.
Uh, it was our second, it wasn't, you know, and
I was going to take some time off to bring Sophia
home. and he giggled and he's like, you don't
have breasts and you ain't helping. What are
you going to be doing? And he was, this was not
a bad man. This was not a crazy man. He wasn't,
he wasn't mean and he giggled and denied my time
off to be there. It feels very jarring for me.
to now fast forward to 2025 and I'm giving people
their birthday off without it being a day. Unlimited
leave is more common than not some places. I'm
now having to adapt flexible work styles and
even though I embrace it because I'm in marketing
and obviously that's just where my world goes.
It is shocking to me still when I try to comport
where I came from because You know, I even told
a story to Ian, one of the guys, you know, here
in the company, he was saying, you know, we're
talking about opportunities. And I said, you
know, what's funny when my manager asked me to
work late, early in my career, I viewed it as
opportunity where today we view it as impinging
on my work -life balance. And I laugh and I was
like, work -life balance is... I think it's a
myth. I think when people say work -life balance,
what they really mean is life -life balance.
I never want work to interfere in my personal
life. It's funny because I've really had to do
a lot of work to understand that the world can
still function. There are still hard workers
out there. They're not trying to take advantage
of me, but like I have gone through a journey
as a business owner of like when I look at people
today in the workforce and I looked at what I
did, I'm grateful they didn't have to do what
I did, but it does feel shocking from a P and
L perspective. I must say the percentage of money
that I spend on staff and salaries and benefits
is higher than it's ever been. Now paradoxically,
the company in 2024 is more profitable than we've
ever been. Right. And that's where I've I'm a
believer. Lean into it. But it really took a
lot of personal work for me to not be bitter
about what I had to go through versus what they
had to go through today and somehow comport that
I can still be profitable in these other things.
It's got to be hard for those dentists. Yes,
especially in the way I've kind of reiterated
it too, is yes, value of time, value of work,
kind of the whole work -life balance theory has
certainly shifted. And what's been interesting
to watch too, and you know, people talk about
the hiring of dental hygienists especially, and
even dental assistants, but there's been that
shortage. Really what we're seeing is the first
cohort of baby boomers. Has been retiring last
couple years. And so that's kind of what's led
into that, which also means a shift kind of the
same thing I was talking about before, where
there's been a lot of people. Who I've been working
at the same dental practice for the last 20 years,
where you just don't necessarily hear that anymore.
People are like, all right, couple years and
I'm on to the next kind of a thing. Where I think
that's the shift in the struggle is that a lot
of those, I guess, values aren't necessarily
there anymore. Where that generation that is
now starting to retire, you know, yep, this is
what I'm doing, I'm fine doing this, kind of
really regimented in their day -to -day. life
and work. We're now, you know, especially the
new graduating class coming out where, well,
this is my expectation. I heard that you can
make this, this and that and do that. And then
I can still do this. And so I go and I want to
go on vacation whenever I want where they're
really, that's where we kind of have to match
and be like, okay, let's be realistic. Like we
understand times are changing, shifting, values
are shifting. And that's something that kind
of, you know, as a, especially if you're a long
time, dentist that you're like, well, no, the
rest of my team, that's not what they value.
That's not what they want. People, they're not
driven in that sense. I find, I feel jealous
of your envy. I don't know which one is accurate,
but one of them, because of my, you're asking
for things. that I didn't have until I built
my own company and put my own money at risk and
dang near got divorced to fight for the freedom
I have today. And you just graduated school and
you're kind of made it. I feel this like sense
of, you know, jealousy of like, hey, why didn't
I ask for that when I was not? Yeah, in 1995,
why did I not have this? But it is the way of
the world. It is. graduated in college in 2011.
And when I started clinical, and then even like
now is insanity. The difference even in that
amount of time that it's just so that's kind
of been the struggle is where do we cap that?
Where do we just kind of say like, okay, yes,
I hear your desires. But from a business standpoint,
from a patient care standpoint, you know, where
can we kind of lay the foundation of like, this
is reasonable, this is how you get what you want.
But and then just make sure that everybody is
feeling respected. Because again, that goes down
to retention. And are you going to lose another
team member because you tick somebody else off?
And so it's yeah, it is it's ever changing. And
it's kind of what my job is to just try to stay,
you know, not only relevant with the clients
I work with, but even a titch above, you know,
something dramatic, like one stand out extra.
That's not thought of yet because you just want
to try to stay ahead of the curve within reason,
of course. As I hear you talk and I think through
our own journeys, you know, we are at a paradigm
change in dentistry in today because the private
equity money that's coming in, they are taking
care of their hygienist and they are paying their
staffs these things. and they're doing it because
they see that employee turnover is notoriously
expensive. Three to 10 times the cost of a salary
is what it takes to replace, depending on what
number you look at, some massive thing. I feel
that in dentistry where there are these factors
converging, the labor market is one, and then
there's the private equity funds that are coming
in. And then there's this, this, you know, if
you're a provider, a dentist today, and you're
trying to optimize your P and L at the bottom,
you're probably already losing. You need to be
focused on growth because that's what everyone
else is focused on. And to do that, you have
to lean into leadership training or cultural
training because as you're talking through your
point, I cannot add the benefits. And I think
they're important and valid in 2025. I can't
bring hygienists on at these higher rates and
still operate the way I was. And that requires
change and that requires courage. Exactly. And
personal work and, and you sound like you might
be instead of recruiters, like a therapist. I
try. Well, that's just, I mean, that's just it
is the first step, honestly, is reaching out
to me and being like, look, this, you know, Gone
are the times where you list a job and then you
just wait for somebody to apply. Those are, I
love those deck. When those come back, I will
be excited. Easy. It was great. And so those,
that kind of goes hand in hand with those providers
and practice managers that are still in that
mentality. Why am I not getting an applicant?
Why am I getting no candidates when a practice
down the road is getting 16? He's not even a
good dentist. Right, right. Yeah, he sucks all
the time, all the time. But so that's kind of
that shift too, which, you know, if, if I can
get myself out there and be like, look, I, my
goal is really to take that pressure off of because
it's exhausting hiring somebody looking for someone's
exhausting. So my mission is basically to alleviate
those hiring headaches for practices, you know,
allowing doctors and practice managers focus
on dentistry, focus on your front office team,
focus on back to the work life balance, focus
on your family at home, like being able to kind
of transition those duties onto me and That's
where I come in and if you you know first start
reaching out to me And then I give you kind of
these ideas and you're like either goes one of
two ways like absolutely not or Okay, tell me
more. You know, that's where it can shift where
it's you know, if you're just gonna be very Set
in your ways and well, this is how I want. This
is how I see my practice This is how which is
great. I mean to be a practice owner any business
owner. You need to have that drive you also have
to be open to the constant shifting and the constant
changing in the constant. This is just how to
get not only, you know, you don't want just a
body that you're at your practice. You want somebody
who's actually going to fit and actually going
to kind of take on that whole encompass of your
practice. God bless you. It sounds like you're
doing really hard work out there. It's, it's
difficult, but it's, it's, you know, it's very
rewarding though when you do get a lot of projects
and clients come in and People are like, oh my
gosh, like I can go home and just have dinner
with my family and not even think about it. And
I know what's taken care of. And, you know, it's,
I build those relationships with not only clients
and practices, but people who I've had speaking
engagements with or people who I've interviewed
in the past. And they're like, well, you know,
maybe this one doesn't sound like a right fit,
but keep me in mind for the next one. And then
that's in my back pocket for the next office,
you know? And so, yeah, it's. It's challenging.
It's ever evolving. But I think kind of what's
in my benefit a little bit too is that I have
that clinical provider experience and front office
experience. And so I kind of, I can see it from
both ways where it's like, you know, what's reasonable
as a provider, what's reasonable as to make a
practice run. So lovely. Well, and thank you
so much for your time. And if you're listening
and you want to recruit a great team, you need
to call Erin. Dental recruiters, I've thoroughly
enjoyed talking to you and I love the grasp you
have on the market because we're seeing this
is the world we live in and you can hide and
shrink or you can bear hug it and grow. But one
way or another, it's happening. It's happening.
And that's just it is you can dig your feet in
or dig your heels in and say, I'm not changing.
I'm going to stay in my ways. But ultimately,
the world's, I mean, you're going to crumble
under it. We got to stay ahead of it. You have
to evolve. You do. Very well said. Yeah. Erin,
thank you so much for your time. My pleasure.
And that was your bite at dental marketing.