How are you Debbie?
I'm good, how are you?
I'm doing well.
I had a motorcycle ride this morning so that always makes my day better.
Oh yeah, that's nice.
It's a beautiful morning isn't it?
It was actually a little cool this morning.
I wore my jacket and I was still, my hands were kind of stiff from the wind.
Yeah, I don't know what happened but whatever the wind blew in last night it was cold.
I'll take it.
Yeah, it's good.
So you've been doing a series on the afterlife and I don't know if I know enough to even
ask you a question about that but there's a couple of clarifications I think that I
would like to know more about.
This past Sunday you were talking about thinking of growing in holiness or I like to think
of as growing our faith in more sophisticated ways and you said this can be expressed through
our thoughts, our speech and our behaviors.
So I wondered if you could give me a little more about that.
How do you do that in a more sophisticated way?
What are you referring to exactly?
So we've discussed the resurrection from the dead.
Have we discussed that on the podcast?
Do you remember?
I don't remember.
We'll do a quick refresher.
Okay.
Now my thinking on this, I've told people this is a lot of the stuff I've been teaching
is just I've taught that and preached at a lot of different places.
This is brand new content for me.
So my ideas are still a little bit fluid on this but it has been so shocking and fascinating
and scary and comforting.
It's been all of those things.
So I'm still thinking through some of the implications of what I'm learning but let's
start with the idea of the resurrection from the dead.
So the two theories on how we are made fit to be in the presence of God starting with
the concept.
So everybody starts with the concept without holiness no one can see the Lord.
Everything unclean can enter the city that he inhabits.
Right?
You talked about the gates.
Yes.
Okay.
Right.
Ah.
And so the walls of the city are like a boundary line between the sacred and the profane so
to speak.
Now at the resurrection from the dead one concept is that when believers are resurrected
they are instantly zapped and made holy.
The other theory is that believers who are yet unperfected in holiness at death go to
an intermediary place where they continue to acquire the holiness that is necessary
to be in the presence of God.
Okay.
Now I believe in zapping.
I've been zapped before.
I've been instantly changed many times.
So I'm not opposed to the idea of being zapped.
But there comes a point at which that presents a problem.
If I were to die right now and I were instantly made perfect would I even know who I was?
I don't know.
There's a sense in which for some believers there's such a gap between where they're
at in their spiritual development and where you need to be to be in the presence of God.
It would destroy their identity.
Not only would they not know themselves it would destroy their relationships because
I wouldn't know this person sitting in front of me anymore either.
And so that presents a problem with the idea of everyone being instantly zapped to perfection
upon death.
Now let's say that we're just talking about sin.
The problem of sin.
And I could get with the idea that the fallenness, the sin is a part of the physical creation.
So when I shed myself of this body which is fallen I no longer have to succumb to certain
temptations.
But that still doesn't answer the question.
If I don't know how to manifest the proper behavior before a good and holy God I still
have not acquired the holiness that I need to be in his presence.
You understand?
Just because I don't, I'm no longer encumbered by sin doesn't mean that I've acquired the
necessary, the ability to manifest the correct behavior before a good and holy God.
And so these are the two problems that thinkers have wrestled with in regards to what does
that mean for the next life.
Because we're starting with the assumption it really is not God's goal to send everyone
to hell.
Right?
Right.
He sent Jesus down here.
And so God has to provide for a means by which we can be prepared to be in the presence of
a good and holy God.
And so these are, that's why really Protestants too easily dismiss Catholic thinking.
Like they just came up with a bunch of goofy ideas out of nowhere.
And that's one of the things I've been trying to demonstrate from scripture.
There's good basis for the ideas that they formulated in regards to the next life.
And then me being surprised, wait a minute, that's not just a Roman Catholic idea.
Everybody believed in an intermediate state where the departed spirit of a believer could
go and be in a place of rest and great paradise.
Just described as paradise.
As Wesley said, where they can go and continue to ripen for heaven, which is being in the
presence of God.
So I've just been seeing the evidence for that idea.
The witness within church tradition that goes beyond denominational boundaries.
And it offers me a great deal of comfort knowing that if I were to get to a car wreck tomorrow
and I'm not perfected, I don't have to go suffer in a purgatory.
I get to go to a really beautiful place with other people in the presence of God.
So when we die, we're still in the presence of God.
Our spirit is still united with the Holy Spirit as a consequence of the new birth.
And we are unimpeded by the fallen creation that leads us into temptation, suffering,
hardships, all that stuff is still going to be over with.
Now that doesn't mean that we're not going to have challenges.
It doesn't mean that we're not going to have goals to strive for.
It doesn't mean that we don't have to meet expectations.
So we can get into some of that.
And again, how this concept dovetails with the idea of the millennium, the millennial
reign of Jesus Christ.
Jesus returns to the earth, believers are resurrected.
Jesus is going to destroy those who have refused his leadership and aligned with Antichrist.
He will allow people to live who may not have gotten the chance to become believers, but
have not pledged loyalty with evil.
And Jesus is going to spend a thousand years, whether that's literal or not, I don't care.
He's going to spend a long period of time training the nations in righteousness.
Like I said, Sunday, the tree of life is going to be present for the healing of the nations.
Yeah.
So these are, I mean, I've done revelation studies, not of my own, but that someone else
had put together or heard sermons on, but not to where you're taking it.
And the detail of what that really will or may or may not look like, I guess I should
say.
And so a lot of questions come up and depending on who you listen to is how they describe
what that will be.
And so I don't think there's a consensus around that.
Well, you'd say that about anything in the Bible, but especially the book of Revelation.
Yes.
Yeah.
And the biblical concept, and I guess for the most part, I didn't worry, and I don't
know that I worry about it now, but I didn't worry about that because I know, well, I think
I know we deal with temptation here, but that temptation won't be there.
Is that true or not?
For a person in a resurrected body, the temptation to sin will no longer be a part of the equation.
For the people who are still in normal human bodies during the millennium, there will be
the exact same temptations that exist right now.
Now, that will be diminished because of the presence of Jesus Christ, the holy angels,
the resurrected saints.
So the righteousness of the nations is going to be greatly increased.
But the Bible describes there will be people who live on the earth who never in their posture
of heart submit to the lordship of Jesus Christ, and they engage in a rebellion at the end
of that timeframe.
And is that Armageddon?
No, Armageddon is going to be the battle to keep Jesus from assuming control of the nations
upon his initial return.
He leads the nations for a thousand years, and there will be another rebellion at the
end of that.
And all of that's just going to demonstrate there is nothing that God could have done,
and the only solution is to put them in eternal conscious punishment.
Now, we're going to talk about in the Sermon on Hell, how the Eastern Orthodox Church views
the lake of fire, those metaphors used in scripture.
Everyone gets resurrected, both believers and unbelievers.
God is going to fully manifest his presence.
In his mercy, he is not doing that right now because it would destroy things.
But there's going to come a time where God is no longer going to withhold his full manifest
presence from the earth, and those resurrected unbelievers will experience extreme suffering
in the manifest glory of the uncreated God.
It will be great joy and pleasure to believers who've been born again as a new creation.
They can partake in that divine nature, but unbelievers cannot.
And it is that manifest presence of God that is the fires of hell.
So two things.
One, you said several times, this does not in any way take away what Jesus came to do
here.
He came, he was the sacrifice, we believe on him, we confess our sins, and you said
that several times.
So that doesn't become part of why someone might be confused about what they're hearing,
because that still holds true.
Okay, but one of the ideas, when I talk about thinking about things in a more sophisticated
way, one of the ideas that I want to get rid of is the idea that I just need to get saved
and everything's going to be okay.
So this is why we need to take as Christians holiness just as seriously as we do salvation.
Okay.
So along those lines then, what does it look like to take that more serious?
What's a person like that?
What did they look like?
What are they doing?
How do you get there where you take it more seriously?
So holiness is, and this is just a classic Wesleyan theology I'm going to be spouting
off here, but it's right and it's good and needs to be repeated.
The body of Christ is the church.
Now the scripture uses that as a metaphor, but it's true.
Jesus Christ is the head of the church, which is his body.
And he gives his apostles some tremendous authority whenever he's preparing them for
his departure.
I give you the keys to the kingdom.
Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.
Whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven, right?
It gives them the power to forgive even.
Paul in trying to discipline an unruly member of the church instructs them, hand them over
to Satan so that even if he destroys their body, at least their soul can be saved.
You ever hear anybody in the church talk like that?
No.
But here's the point, being outside of the church places you on territory where you can
get chewed up and spit out, spiritually speaking.
So one of the things we need to understand is while you can get born again outside of
the church, you cannot acquire holiness outside of the church.
So the kind of American attitude that church is this kind of nice place where I get to
go every once in a while and listen to a sermon, that idea is childish.
It's immature.
Participation in the body of Christ is the means by which God is producing holiness or
maturity in the mind and heart of a believer.
In the book of Acts, it says they were meeting and gathering every day.
And Paul would be up preaching until midnight.
So we're talking about making a serious and disciplined investment of your time and energy
and your spiritual development.
So could you say one thing is not just coming to church for a sermon, but not just coming
to church for a sermon, but being involved in some form or fashion in what the church
is trying to do?
Yeah.
And I would, again, I'm trying to frame it differently because it's not about the sermon
per se.
It's about being present and participating in the body of Christ.
So yeah, that does mean gathering for worship.
That does mean participating in a group.
I guess we do Sunday school here.
You should be participating in a group.
You should be making it a priority to be at church at least on Wednesday nights and Sunday
mornings.
Now listen, obviously this sounds a little bit coming from a place of self-interest as
a pastor, right?
We need to grow the church.
This is serious advice.
And this is something I did even before I was a pastor.
I did this as a churchgoer.
So it's just good advice.
And then I would go to other meetings as a churchgoer if there was some time of special
conference happening, which back in the 90s, there was always something happening in Tulsa.
I'd be there.
My spiritual life was my number one priority.
Okay.
So what else do you feel like fits under that that helps a person grow in towards this holiness
and faith growing?
We talked about participating in the church.
What else?
I am always reading.
I am always, if I'm watching YouTube videos, it's almost always to develop my mind in some
way.
I'm not watching Wheel of Fortune or any... I do watch football.
Okay.
All right.
There's things that I watch just for fun, obviously, but the overwhelming majority of
the time, I'm watching something to develop my understanding in some way.
So I'm reading, I'm watching YouTube videos.
I'm trying to do something productive with my time.
Okay.
And for some people, that means doing real work.
But for me, thinking is real work.
Learning how to think and sharpening my thinking skills is real work.
So I'm not wasting a lot of time.
I do waste time.
Don't get me wrong.
Well, we all do.
We all do.
I'm just saying that I'm spending a significant amount of time every day developing my skills
in some way.
Okay.
And that's important.
When we think about holiness, that's an important part of holiness.
You think about Jesus in Luke 19 is giving the analogy of the landowner where he's wanting
them to give an account of what have you produced.
Hey, you gave me 10 meanas, I've made 10 more.
Okay, good job.
I'll put you over 10 cities now.
Right?
And the guy who developed five.
And then the guy who did nothing with his what?
Talents.
Now that's, it's talking about money, but he didn't, he was, he didn't produce anything.
And Jesus says, I'm going to take what I gave you and gave it to someone else and you're
going to suffer loss.
Right?
So we need to think about the discipline that is demanded to produce holiness, which isn't
just getting rid of the sin in your life.
It is also becoming someone who can manifest the proper speech and behavior in the presence
of a holy God.
Which is part of your list of thoughts, speech and behaviors.
Right.
And Jesus teaches our behavior starts with our thoughts.
Right?
The eye is the lamp of the body.
So learning to think correctly is very important as a believer.
You know, the Bible talks about having the mind of Christ, right?
Be not conformed to the image of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your
mind.
So that is where the game is won or lost, is in the mind.
And so, and then once our mind gets straightened out, our speech and our behavior follow closely
to that.
So where does the Holy Spirit fit in?
That's a good question.
Because of those things we've listed now are things, you know, we can do, we can make changes
in our lifestyle and increase our learning.
But how does the Holy Spirit fit into that?
That's good.
You know, I, so I spent four years in college.
I made good grades.
Ish.
I learned absolutely nothing in college.
I didn't learn that much in school, to be honest with you.
Just because I was able to perform doesn't mean I learned anything.
Because I didn't care.
And this is where the Holy Spirit comes into play.
The Holy Spirit makes learning something that brings me pleasure.
The Holy Spirit gives me the desire to understand.
He changes my desires and affections.
And so now when I learn it's not laborious, it's, I love it.
You know?
I'm not spending a lot of time learning and growing my understanding because I'm so super
disciplined.
I'm doing that because that's the thing that brings me the most pleasure.
And this is the thing that so many Christians miss out on.
They don't learn the pleasure of knowing God and loving God.
And the Holy Spirit manifests that as we are ripening in holiness.
Yeah.
And this is why Wesley equated holiness with happiness.
It's two sides of the same coin.
True happiness is a consequence of God's pleasure being manifest in our inner man whenever he's
pleased with our works.
You know?
Yeah.
So that's where the Holy Spirit comes into play.
He gives me not only the desire to learn, but the ability to learn.
I have the ability to comprehend what I'm, or grow in comprehension in what I'm reading
and learning.
So it does take discipline, but the Holy Spirit rewards our discipline with his manifest presence
and by changing our desires and affections and improving our ability, you know?
So.
Yeah.
We're a better person.
Yeah.
So it's a, I'm going to go back to Jesus, first accepting Jesus as your Savior and getting
that foundation and commitment and growing it.
We don't have the ability to make the improvements.
We don't have the ability to enjoy learning unless we've been united with God through
Jesus Christ.
So that is absolutely the starting point.
Yeah.
For sure.
Okay.
Well, I, you mentioned Overcomers, which you know, that's the book we're studying.
Awesome.
He has so many, Dr. Jeremiah has so many great true stories in the book along the way.
Not only are we learning about putting on the armor of God, but also he gives examples
of people and what they have done to overcome in their lives.
And it's just a great example.
And the one we read on Sunday, I was just, I'll tell you the, I tried to make it a short
version, was about a 10-year-old boy who was tricked into getting into a man's vehicle.
He told him, I'm going to buy a gift for your dad.
I need you to come help me.
And he did.
And he takes him out and stabs him, shoots him, leaves him for dead.
And years later, the boy does survive a passing car, finds him in about six days, but he loses
sight in his eyes.
Wow.
Yeah.
But he lives.
He becomes a Christian and he's working in the ministry.
I can't remember if he's a preacher or not, but he's working in the ministry.
So as a grown man now with children, a police officer comes to him and says, there's an
elderly man who's confessed to having done this to you.
So he goes to the, the man is in an old folks home now.
He can't take care of himself.
And he goes there to see him, not just once, but several times.
And is, is the, he is the catalyst for the man finally asking for forgiveness from him
and from Christ.
And he does that a few days before he passes away.
And this young boy, I mean, that, that to me is such an example of how you are able
to do something that you normally wouldn't do.
He had done nothing.
The man was mad, worked for his dad, was mad at his dad, took it out on his son.
Wow.
And it's just an amazing story, isn't it?
It is.
Yeah.
It is.
Yes, very, very.
You know, we can't control our temper if we get cut off on the road to work or wherever,
you know?
Yes.
And, uh, you've been in the car with me.
That's just hard to wrap your mind around that.
Isn't it?
You know, and, and at the same time, it's hard to accept someone like that.
I'm getting the same reward as someone like you.
And it brings me comfort to know that is not the case.
You know?
What, what do you mean?
Well, the Bible talks about heavenly rewards.
You're familiar with this.
And the Bible talks a lot about heavenly rewards.
And that will affect the quality of our lives in many different ways.
And so that's why we say, the Bible also talks about differences of suffering in hell.
And so hell is going to be bad for everyone.
It'll be worse for some than others.
Heaven is going to be good for everyone.
It will be better for some than others.
And there will be a large variety of differences.
And so it gives me pleasure to know that just because someone like that doesn't suffer the
fires of hell, doesn't mean there aren't consequences for their life choices.
So and that's again, a more mature way of thinking about the afterlife than the lollipop
churchianity that we typically function on in the United States in particular.
Yeah.
Well, I know one of the things I wrote down from Sunday was to change my thinking that
salvation was not the end, but the beginning.
And that we can, the Holy Spirit will train us.
Yes.
He will convict us of things.
He will change us.
He will help us.
Just like this young man.
He, he wouldn't have done that on his own.
No.
Had he not become a Christian, had he not known the love of Jesus in his heart.
So let's.
And let me, let me wind the, wind things up with a little passage from Zechariah 14.
Okay.
Zechariah 14 is an important verse of scripture.
It is describing the return of Jesus Christ.
Okay.
It describes the return of Jesus Christ, the battle of Armageddon, and the, some of the
characteristics of the millennial reign of Jesus Christ.
Because we're talking about, we talked about last Sunday how there is no avoiding discipline.
Jesus suffered your punishment for you.
So he was your substitute in that regard, but no one can substitute for the discipline
that is required to produce holiness in your mind and heart.
Okay.
So let's look at some of the discipline that's going to be enforced during the millennial
reign of Jesus Christ.
Okay.
So we've been introduced in Zechariah 14 to the return of Jesus Christ, the battle of
Armageddon, Jesus overcoming.
And here's what it says in verse 12.
I'm going to start in verse 12.
This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against
Jerusalem.
Their flesh will rot while they're still standing on their feet.
Their eyes will rot on their sockets.
This is talking about the people that fought against Jerusalem, the people who pledged
loyalty with the forces of evil.
Okay.
So doesn't mean every person and their tongues will rot in their mouths.
On that day, men will be stricken by the Lord with great panic.
Each man will seize the hand of another and they will attack each other.
Judah too will fight at Jerusalem.
The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected.
Okay.
So money is going to be important in the next stage.
We're still going to have things like wealth and objects of value, great quantities of
gold and silver and clothing.
So all of the things you care about in this life are going to be important in the next
life.
Verse 15, a similar plague will strike the horses and mules and camels and donkeys and
all the animals in those camps.
Verse 16, then the survivors from all the nations, okay.
You get that?
That have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty
and to celebrate the feast of tabernacles.
If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the
Lord Almighty, they will have no rain.
If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain.
The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up
to celebrate the feast of tabernacles.
This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not
go up to celebrate the feast of tabernacles.
So do you see how this is painting a different picture?
It is.
Then again, what we think of in regards to the afterlife.
It's holiness and progress towards manifesting the correct behavior.
You're not going to have the freedom to avoid that anymore.
There will still be punishment upon those beyond hell that are not obedient.
So now these these are unresurrected people from the nations that did not align with evil,
but had not been united with God in the new birth either.
And so that's the particular group of people that we're talking about.
There will be required progress towards holiness for everyone.
It's just going to be a great joy and pleasure on orders of magnitude beyond what we have
now as we make progress in these things.
Wow.
I'm gonna have to reread Zechariah.
Zechariah is a powerful book.
So yeah, Isaiah as well.
The closing chapters of Isaiah have some very profound ideas in there about God's plans
for the next age.
Okay.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, thank you for listening to me and clarifying.
We're probably going to need to revisit this topic as we progress through the sermon series,
so keep taking notes because this is like I say, I know there's going to be many people
that need to have some things clarified.
Okay.
So sounds good.
Thanks for coming in and doing this.
Yeah, as always, it's very it's been a big blessing to our church.
Thank you.
Amen.
Very much.