1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,160 How are you Debbie? 2 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:11,440 I'm good, how are you? 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:12,440 I'm doing well. 4 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:17,720 I had a motorcycle ride this morning so that always makes my day better. 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,120 Oh yeah, that's nice. 6 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:21,640 It's a beautiful morning isn't it? 7 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:23,720 It was actually a little cool this morning. 8 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:29,000 I wore my jacket and I was still, my hands were kind of stiff from the wind. 9 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:33,960 Yeah, I don't know what happened but whatever the wind blew in last night it was cold. 10 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:34,960 I'll take it. 11 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:36,720 Yeah, it's good. 12 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:45,520 So you've been doing a series on the afterlife and I don't know if I know enough to even 13 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:51,160 ask you a question about that but there's a couple of clarifications I think that I 14 00:00:51,160 --> 00:00:55,000 would like to know more about. 15 00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:03,920 This past Sunday you were talking about thinking of growing in holiness or I like to think 16 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:11,520 of as growing our faith in more sophisticated ways and you said this can be expressed through 17 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,760 our thoughts, our speech and our behaviors. 18 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:21,640 So I wondered if you could give me a little more about that. 19 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:26,080 How do you do that in a more sophisticated way? 20 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:31,600 What are you referring to exactly? 21 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,880 So we've discussed the resurrection from the dead. 22 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:36,640 Have we discussed that on the podcast? 23 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:38,240 Do you remember? 24 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:39,240 I don't remember. 25 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:40,960 We'll do a quick refresher. 26 00:01:40,960 --> 00:01:41,960 Okay. 27 00:01:41,960 --> 00:01:42,960 Okay. 28 00:01:42,960 --> 00:01:48,280 Now my thinking on this, I've told people this is a lot of the stuff I've been teaching 29 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:53,520 is just I've taught that and preached at a lot of different places. 30 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,560 This is brand new content for me. 31 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:09,760 So my ideas are still a little bit fluid on this but it has been so shocking and fascinating 32 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:12,760 and scary and comforting. 33 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,020 It's been all of those things. 34 00:02:16,020 --> 00:02:24,120 So I'm still thinking through some of the implications of what I'm learning but let's 35 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:32,280 start with the idea of the resurrection from the dead. 36 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:40,080 So the two theories on how we are made fit to be in the presence of God starting with 37 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:41,120 the concept. 38 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:45,760 So everybody starts with the concept without holiness no one can see the Lord. 39 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,200 Everything unclean can enter the city that he inhabits. 40 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:50,200 Right? 41 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:52,200 You talked about the gates. 42 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:53,200 Yes. 43 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:54,200 Okay. 44 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:55,200 Right. 45 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:56,200 Ah. 46 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:01,320 And so the walls of the city are like a boundary line between the sacred and the profane so 47 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,680 to speak. 48 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:14,600 Now at the resurrection from the dead one concept is that when believers are resurrected 49 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:21,280 they are instantly zapped and made holy. 50 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:29,080 The other theory is that believers who are yet unperfected in holiness at death go to 51 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:36,640 an intermediary place where they continue to acquire the holiness that is necessary 52 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:38,640 to be in the presence of God. 53 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:39,640 Okay. 54 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,400 Now I believe in zapping. 55 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,360 I've been zapped before. 56 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:49,360 I've been instantly changed many times. 57 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:55,800 So I'm not opposed to the idea of being zapped. 58 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:01,600 But there comes a point at which that presents a problem. 59 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:10,960 If I were to die right now and I were instantly made perfect would I even know who I was? 60 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:12,440 I don't know. 61 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:20,720 There's a sense in which for some believers there's such a gap between where they're 62 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:27,080 at in their spiritual development and where you need to be to be in the presence of God. 63 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:29,040 It would destroy their identity. 64 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,920 Not only would they not know themselves it would destroy their relationships because 65 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:37,160 I wouldn't know this person sitting in front of me anymore either. 66 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:46,080 And so that presents a problem with the idea of everyone being instantly zapped to perfection 67 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,280 upon death. 68 00:04:49,280 --> 00:04:54,680 Now let's say that we're just talking about sin. 69 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,960 The problem of sin. 70 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:08,020 And I could get with the idea that the fallenness, the sin is a part of the physical creation. 71 00:05:08,020 --> 00:05:15,600 So when I shed myself of this body which is fallen I no longer have to succumb to certain 72 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,640 temptations. 73 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,540 But that still doesn't answer the question. 74 00:05:22,540 --> 00:05:28,920 If I don't know how to manifest the proper behavior before a good and holy God I still 75 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:34,440 have not acquired the holiness that I need to be in his presence. 76 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:35,940 You understand? 77 00:05:35,940 --> 00:05:42,020 Just because I don't, I'm no longer encumbered by sin doesn't mean that I've acquired the 78 00:05:42,020 --> 00:05:52,300 necessary, the ability to manifest the correct behavior before a good and holy God. 79 00:05:52,300 --> 00:05:57,500 And so these are the two problems that thinkers have wrestled with in regards to what does 80 00:05:57,500 --> 00:06:00,600 that mean for the next life. 81 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:06,100 Because we're starting with the assumption it really is not God's goal to send everyone 82 00:06:06,100 --> 00:06:07,800 to hell. 83 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:09,120 Right? 84 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:10,400 Right. 85 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,840 He sent Jesus down here. 86 00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:23,240 And so God has to provide for a means by which we can be prepared to be in the presence of 87 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:27,680 a good and holy God. 88 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:36,120 And so these are, that's why really Protestants too easily dismiss Catholic thinking. 89 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,440 Like they just came up with a bunch of goofy ideas out of nowhere. 90 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:43,320 And that's one of the things I've been trying to demonstrate from scripture. 91 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:50,560 There's good basis for the ideas that they formulated in regards to the next life. 92 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:57,620 And then me being surprised, wait a minute, that's not just a Roman Catholic idea. 93 00:06:57,620 --> 00:07:04,860 Everybody believed in an intermediate state where the departed spirit of a believer could 94 00:07:04,860 --> 00:07:12,480 go and be in a place of rest and great paradise. 95 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,880 Just described as paradise. 96 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:23,720 As Wesley said, where they can go and continue to ripen for heaven, which is being in the 97 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,460 presence of God. 98 00:07:26,460 --> 00:07:34,960 So I've just been seeing the evidence for that idea. 99 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:42,400 The witness within church tradition that goes beyond denominational boundaries. 100 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:49,380 And it offers me a great deal of comfort knowing that if I were to get to a car wreck tomorrow 101 00:07:49,380 --> 00:07:56,720 and I'm not perfected, I don't have to go suffer in a purgatory. 102 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:03,560 I get to go to a really beautiful place with other people in the presence of God. 103 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,600 So when we die, we're still in the presence of God. 104 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:14,200 Our spirit is still united with the Holy Spirit as a consequence of the new birth. 105 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:25,160 And we are unimpeded by the fallen creation that leads us into temptation, suffering, 106 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,720 hardships, all that stuff is still going to be over with. 107 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:33,520 Now that doesn't mean that we're not going to have challenges. 108 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,800 It doesn't mean that we're not going to have goals to strive for. 109 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,200 It doesn't mean that we don't have to meet expectations. 110 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:48,200 So we can get into some of that. 111 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,840 And again, how this concept dovetails with the idea of the millennium, the millennial 112 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:54,120 reign of Jesus Christ. 113 00:08:54,120 --> 00:09:00,440 Jesus returns to the earth, believers are resurrected. 114 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:10,240 Jesus is going to destroy those who have refused his leadership and aligned with Antichrist. 115 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:20,880 He will allow people to live who may not have gotten the chance to become believers, but 116 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:27,320 have not pledged loyalty with evil. 117 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:33,920 And Jesus is going to spend a thousand years, whether that's literal or not, I don't care. 118 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:38,080 He's going to spend a long period of time training the nations in righteousness. 119 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:45,160 Like I said, Sunday, the tree of life is going to be present for the healing of the nations. 120 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:46,160 Yeah. 121 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:57,360 So these are, I mean, I've done revelation studies, not of my own, but that someone else 122 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:05,600 had put together or heard sermons on, but not to where you're taking it. 123 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:12,920 And the detail of what that really will or may or may not look like, I guess I should 124 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:13,920 say. 125 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:26,840 And so a lot of questions come up and depending on who you listen to is how they describe 126 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:28,600 what that will be. 127 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,920 And so I don't think there's a consensus around that. 128 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:37,000 Well, you'd say that about anything in the Bible, but especially the book of Revelation. 129 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:38,000 Yes. 130 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:39,000 Yeah. 131 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:40,000 Yeah. 132 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:48,080 And the biblical concept, and I guess for the most part, I didn't worry, and I don't 133 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:55,280 know that I worry about it now, but I didn't worry about that because I know, well, I think 134 00:10:55,280 --> 00:11:04,240 I know we deal with temptation here, but that temptation won't be there. 135 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:08,120 Is that true or not? 136 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:21,320 For a person in a resurrected body, the temptation to sin will no longer be a part of the equation. 137 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:28,040 For the people who are still in normal human bodies during the millennium, there will be 138 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,000 the exact same temptations that exist right now. 139 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:39,280 Now, that will be diminished because of the presence of Jesus Christ, the holy angels, 140 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:41,000 the resurrected saints. 141 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,920 So the righteousness of the nations is going to be greatly increased. 142 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:52,220 But the Bible describes there will be people who live on the earth who never in their posture 143 00:11:52,220 --> 00:11:58,840 of heart submit to the lordship of Jesus Christ, and they engage in a rebellion at the end 144 00:11:58,840 --> 00:11:59,840 of that timeframe. 145 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,600 And is that Armageddon? 146 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:11,880 No, Armageddon is going to be the battle to keep Jesus from assuming control of the nations 147 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:14,760 upon his initial return. 148 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:19,880 He leads the nations for a thousand years, and there will be another rebellion at the 149 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:20,880 end of that. 150 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:26,000 And all of that's just going to demonstrate there is nothing that God could have done, 151 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:30,880 and the only solution is to put them in eternal conscious punishment. 152 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:38,760 Now, we're going to talk about in the Sermon on Hell, how the Eastern Orthodox Church views 153 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:43,280 the lake of fire, those metaphors used in scripture. 154 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,760 Everyone gets resurrected, both believers and unbelievers. 155 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,200 God is going to fully manifest his presence. 156 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:55,160 In his mercy, he is not doing that right now because it would destroy things. 157 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,860 But there's going to come a time where God is no longer going to withhold his full manifest 158 00:12:58,860 --> 00:13:07,080 presence from the earth, and those resurrected unbelievers will experience extreme suffering 159 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:12,440 in the manifest glory of the uncreated God. 160 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:17,460 It will be great joy and pleasure to believers who've been born again as a new creation. 161 00:13:17,460 --> 00:13:22,000 They can partake in that divine nature, but unbelievers cannot. 162 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:27,200 And it is that manifest presence of God that is the fires of hell. 163 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,720 So two things. 164 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:38,320 One, you said several times, this does not in any way take away what Jesus came to do 165 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:39,320 here. 166 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:47,480 He came, he was the sacrifice, we believe on him, we confess our sins, and you said 167 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:49,360 that several times. 168 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:59,800 So that doesn't become part of why someone might be confused about what they're hearing, 169 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,720 because that still holds true. 170 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:08,000 Okay, but one of the ideas, when I talk about thinking about things in a more sophisticated 171 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:15,120 way, one of the ideas that I want to get rid of is the idea that I just need to get saved 172 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,480 and everything's going to be okay. 173 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:26,480 So this is why we need to take as Christians holiness just as seriously as we do salvation. 174 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:27,480 Okay. 175 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:34,920 So along those lines then, what does it look like to take that more serious? 176 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,800 What's a person like that? 177 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:39,760 What did they look like? 178 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,240 What are they doing? 179 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:49,520 How do you get there where you take it more seriously? 180 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:55,680 So holiness is, and this is just a classic Wesleyan theology I'm going to be spouting 181 00:14:55,680 --> 00:15:03,800 off here, but it's right and it's good and needs to be repeated. 182 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,720 The body of Christ is the church. 183 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:13,680 Now the scripture uses that as a metaphor, but it's true. 184 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:19,160 Jesus Christ is the head of the church, which is his body. 185 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:24,560 And he gives his apostles some tremendous authority whenever he's preparing them for 186 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:25,560 his departure. 187 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,120 I give you the keys to the kingdom. 188 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,680 Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven. 189 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,120 Whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven, right? 190 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:40,360 It gives them the power to forgive even. 191 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:50,480 Paul in trying to discipline an unruly member of the church instructs them, hand them over 192 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:56,600 to Satan so that even if he destroys their body, at least their soul can be saved. 193 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,880 You ever hear anybody in the church talk like that? 194 00:15:58,880 --> 00:15:59,880 No. 195 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:08,120 But here's the point, being outside of the church places you on territory where you can 196 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,800 get chewed up and spit out, spiritually speaking. 197 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:16,560 So one of the things we need to understand is while you can get born again outside of 198 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:23,140 the church, you cannot acquire holiness outside of the church. 199 00:16:23,140 --> 00:16:27,520 So the kind of American attitude that church is this kind of nice place where I get to 200 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:34,320 go every once in a while and listen to a sermon, that idea is childish. 201 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:39,440 It's immature. 202 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:44,740 Participation in the body of Christ is the means by which God is producing holiness or 203 00:16:44,740 --> 00:16:50,980 maturity in the mind and heart of a believer. 204 00:16:50,980 --> 00:16:56,900 In the book of Acts, it says they were meeting and gathering every day. 205 00:16:56,900 --> 00:17:02,700 And Paul would be up preaching until midnight. 206 00:17:02,700 --> 00:17:11,080 So we're talking about making a serious and disciplined investment of your time and energy 207 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:13,820 and your spiritual development. 208 00:17:13,820 --> 00:17:24,040 So could you say one thing is not just coming to church for a sermon, but not just coming 209 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:30,960 to church for a sermon, but being involved in some form or fashion in what the church 210 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:32,440 is trying to do? 211 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:33,440 Yeah. 212 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:39,760 And I would, again, I'm trying to frame it differently because it's not about the sermon 213 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:40,760 per se. 214 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:45,640 It's about being present and participating in the body of Christ. 215 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:51,120 So yeah, that does mean gathering for worship. 216 00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:54,200 That does mean participating in a group. 217 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,880 I guess we do Sunday school here. 218 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,080 You should be participating in a group. 219 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:04,520 You should be making it a priority to be at church at least on Wednesday nights and Sunday 220 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:05,520 mornings. 221 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:12,520 Now listen, obviously this sounds a little bit coming from a place of self-interest as 222 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:13,520 a pastor, right? 223 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:17,100 We need to grow the church. 224 00:18:17,100 --> 00:18:18,500 This is serious advice. 225 00:18:18,500 --> 00:18:22,640 And this is something I did even before I was a pastor. 226 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,800 I did this as a churchgoer. 227 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:32,040 So it's just good advice. 228 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:36,400 And then I would go to other meetings as a churchgoer if there was some time of special 229 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:41,720 conference happening, which back in the 90s, there was always something happening in Tulsa. 230 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,660 I'd be there. 231 00:18:45,660 --> 00:18:49,080 My spiritual life was my number one priority. 232 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:50,240 Okay. 233 00:18:50,240 --> 00:19:02,400 So what else do you feel like fits under that that helps a person grow in towards this holiness 234 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,040 and faith growing? 235 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,720 We talked about participating in the church. 236 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:09,720 What else? 237 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,000 I am always reading. 238 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:19,880 I am always, if I'm watching YouTube videos, it's almost always to develop my mind in some 239 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,240 way. 240 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:29,680 I'm not watching Wheel of Fortune or any... I do watch football. 241 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:30,680 Okay. 242 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:31,680 All right. 243 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:36,720 There's things that I watch just for fun, obviously, but the overwhelming majority of 244 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:41,560 the time, I'm watching something to develop my understanding in some way. 245 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:48,080 So I'm reading, I'm watching YouTube videos. 246 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,840 I'm trying to do something productive with my time. 247 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:52,840 Okay. 248 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:57,400 And for some people, that means doing real work. 249 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,880 But for me, thinking is real work. 250 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:03,920 Learning how to think and sharpening my thinking skills is real work. 251 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:11,360 So I'm not wasting a lot of time. 252 00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:12,360 I do waste time. 253 00:20:12,360 --> 00:20:13,360 Don't get me wrong. 254 00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:14,360 Well, we all do. 255 00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:15,360 We all do. 256 00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:22,920 I'm just saying that I'm spending a significant amount of time every day developing my skills 257 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:24,240 in some way. 258 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:25,240 Okay. 259 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:26,240 And that's important. 260 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,160 When we think about holiness, that's an important part of holiness. 261 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:35,280 You think about Jesus in Luke 19 is giving the analogy of the landowner where he's wanting 262 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:39,160 them to give an account of what have you produced. 263 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:44,480 Hey, you gave me 10 meanas, I've made 10 more. 264 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:45,480 Okay, good job. 265 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,800 I'll put you over 10 cities now. 266 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:48,800 Right? 267 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:50,920 And the guy who developed five. 268 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:55,040 And then the guy who did nothing with his what? 269 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:56,040 Talents. 270 00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:09,080 Now that's, it's talking about money, but he didn't, he was, he didn't produce anything. 271 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,320 And Jesus says, I'm going to take what I gave you and gave it to someone else and you're 272 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,120 going to suffer loss. 273 00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:15,960 Right? 274 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:23,380 So we need to think about the discipline that is demanded to produce holiness, which isn't 275 00:21:23,380 --> 00:21:25,680 just getting rid of the sin in your life. 276 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:32,860 It is also becoming someone who can manifest the proper speech and behavior in the presence 277 00:21:32,860 --> 00:21:34,640 of a holy God. 278 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,680 Which is part of your list of thoughts, speech and behaviors. 279 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:39,680 Right. 280 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,520 And Jesus teaches our behavior starts with our thoughts. 281 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:44,640 Right? 282 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,080 The eye is the lamp of the body. 283 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:55,440 So learning to think correctly is very important as a believer. 284 00:21:55,440 --> 00:22:01,360 You know, the Bible talks about having the mind of Christ, right? 285 00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:05,680 Be not conformed to the image of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your 286 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:07,880 mind. 287 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:15,620 So that is where the game is won or lost, is in the mind. 288 00:22:15,620 --> 00:22:21,640 And so, and then once our mind gets straightened out, our speech and our behavior follow closely 289 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,040 to that. 290 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:27,760 So where does the Holy Spirit fit in? 291 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:28,760 That's a good question. 292 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:35,500 Because of those things we've listed now are things, you know, we can do, we can make changes 293 00:22:35,500 --> 00:22:40,040 in our lifestyle and increase our learning. 294 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,480 But how does the Holy Spirit fit into that? 295 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:43,480 That's good. 296 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,280 You know, I, so I spent four years in college. 297 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,320 I made good grades. 298 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,560 Ish. 299 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,600 I learned absolutely nothing in college. 300 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,500 I didn't learn that much in school, to be honest with you. 301 00:23:00,500 --> 00:23:04,240 Just because I was able to perform doesn't mean I learned anything. 302 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,200 Because I didn't care. 303 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,440 And this is where the Holy Spirit comes into play. 304 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:17,560 The Holy Spirit makes learning something that brings me pleasure. 305 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:21,760 The Holy Spirit gives me the desire to understand. 306 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,100 He changes my desires and affections. 307 00:23:25,100 --> 00:23:30,740 And so now when I learn it's not laborious, it's, I love it. 308 00:23:30,740 --> 00:23:31,740 You know? 309 00:23:31,740 --> 00:23:38,280 I'm not spending a lot of time learning and growing my understanding because I'm so super 310 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:39,520 disciplined. 311 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:44,640 I'm doing that because that's the thing that brings me the most pleasure. 312 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,700 And this is the thing that so many Christians miss out on. 313 00:23:47,700 --> 00:23:50,640 They don't learn the pleasure of knowing God and loving God. 314 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:57,680 And the Holy Spirit manifests that as we are ripening in holiness. 315 00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:58,680 Yeah. 316 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,320 And this is why Wesley equated holiness with happiness. 317 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,080 It's two sides of the same coin. 318 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:13,660 True happiness is a consequence of God's pleasure being manifest in our inner man whenever he's 319 00:24:13,660 --> 00:24:17,800 pleased with our works. 320 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:18,800 You know? 321 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:19,800 Yeah. 322 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:20,800 So that's where the Holy Spirit comes into play. 323 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,880 He gives me not only the desire to learn, but the ability to learn. 324 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:33,520 I have the ability to comprehend what I'm, or grow in comprehension in what I'm reading 325 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:34,520 and learning. 326 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:44,680 So it does take discipline, but the Holy Spirit rewards our discipline with his manifest presence 327 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:50,360 and by changing our desires and affections and improving our ability, you know? 328 00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:51,360 So. 329 00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:52,360 Yeah. 330 00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:53,360 We're a better person. 331 00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:54,360 Yeah. 332 00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:55,360 Yeah. 333 00:24:55,360 --> 00:25:09,440 So it's a, I'm going to go back to Jesus, first accepting Jesus as your Savior and getting 334 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:16,040 that foundation and commitment and growing it. 335 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:23,240 We don't have the ability to make the improvements. 336 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:28,040 We don't have the ability to enjoy learning unless we've been united with God through 337 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:29,180 Jesus Christ. 338 00:25:29,180 --> 00:25:32,520 So that is absolutely the starting point. 339 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:33,520 Yeah. 340 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:34,520 Yeah. 341 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:35,520 Yeah. 342 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:36,520 For sure. 343 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:37,520 Okay. 344 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:42,000 Well, I, you mentioned Overcomers, which you know, that's the book we're studying. 345 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:43,000 Awesome. 346 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:56,080 He has so many, Dr. Jeremiah has so many great true stories in the book along the way. 347 00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:05,080 Not only are we learning about putting on the armor of God, but also he gives examples 348 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:10,880 of people and what they have done to overcome in their lives. 349 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,440 And it's just a great example. 350 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:18,000 And the one we read on Sunday, I was just, I'll tell you the, I tried to make it a short 351 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:29,500 version, was about a 10-year-old boy who was tricked into getting into a man's vehicle. 352 00:26:29,500 --> 00:26:32,080 He told him, I'm going to buy a gift for your dad. 353 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:33,320 I need you to come help me. 354 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:34,400 And he did. 355 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:42,700 And he takes him out and stabs him, shoots him, leaves him for dead. 356 00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:51,960 And years later, the boy does survive a passing car, finds him in about six days, but he loses 357 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:53,960 sight in his eyes. 358 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:54,960 Wow. 359 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:55,960 Yeah. 360 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:57,320 But he lives. 361 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:02,080 He becomes a Christian and he's working in the ministry. 362 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,240 I can't remember if he's a preacher or not, but he's working in the ministry. 363 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:12,180 So as a grown man now with children, a police officer comes to him and says, there's an 364 00:27:12,180 --> 00:27:18,640 elderly man who's confessed to having done this to you. 365 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:24,980 So he goes to the, the man is in an old folks home now. 366 00:27:24,980 --> 00:27:27,520 He can't take care of himself. 367 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:33,760 And he goes there to see him, not just once, but several times. 368 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:48,560 And is, is the, he is the catalyst for the man finally asking for forgiveness from him 369 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,400 and from Christ. 370 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:55,480 And he does that a few days before he passes away. 371 00:27:55,480 --> 00:28:03,600 And this young boy, I mean, that, that to me is such an example of how you are able 372 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:10,200 to do something that you normally wouldn't do. 373 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:11,480 He had done nothing. 374 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:18,320 The man was mad, worked for his dad, was mad at his dad, took it out on his son. 375 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:19,320 Wow. 376 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,880 And it's just an amazing story, isn't it? 377 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:23,880 It is. 378 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:24,880 Yeah. 379 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:25,880 It is. 380 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:26,880 Yes, very, very. 381 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:32,760 You know, we can't control our temper if we get cut off on the road to work or wherever, 382 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:33,760 you know? 383 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:34,760 Yes. 384 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:40,480 And, uh, you've been in the car with me. 385 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,880 That's just hard to wrap your mind around that. 386 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:43,880 Isn't it? 387 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:54,800 You know, and, and at the same time, it's hard to accept someone like that. 388 00:28:54,800 --> 00:29:00,080 I'm getting the same reward as someone like you. 389 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,920 And it brings me comfort to know that is not the case. 390 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:05,920 You know? 391 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,920 What, what do you mean? 392 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:14,280 Well, the Bible talks about heavenly rewards. 393 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,880 You're familiar with this. 394 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:23,040 And the Bible talks a lot about heavenly rewards. 395 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:29,160 And that will affect the quality of our lives in many different ways. 396 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:36,800 And so that's why we say, the Bible also talks about differences of suffering in hell. 397 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,160 And so hell is going to be bad for everyone. 398 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,600 It'll be worse for some than others. 399 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,180 Heaven is going to be good for everyone. 400 00:29:43,180 --> 00:29:46,440 It will be better for some than others. 401 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:51,360 And there will be a large variety of differences. 402 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:57,400 And so it gives me pleasure to know that just because someone like that doesn't suffer the 403 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:03,800 fires of hell, doesn't mean there aren't consequences for their life choices. 404 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:12,000 So and that's again, a more mature way of thinking about the afterlife than the lollipop 405 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:18,440 churchianity that we typically function on in the United States in particular. 406 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:19,440 Yeah. 407 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:27,760 Well, I know one of the things I wrote down from Sunday was to change my thinking that 408 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:32,840 salvation was not the end, but the beginning. 409 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:39,120 And that we can, the Holy Spirit will train us. 410 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:40,120 Yes. 411 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:41,880 He will convict us of things. 412 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:43,040 He will change us. 413 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:44,480 He will help us. 414 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:45,760 Just like this young man. 415 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,320 He, he wouldn't have done that on his own. 416 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:49,320 No. 417 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:55,160 Had he not become a Christian, had he not known the love of Jesus in his heart. 418 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,840 So let's. 419 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:06,200 And let me, let me wind the, wind things up with a little passage from Zechariah 14. 420 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:07,200 Okay. 421 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:08,200 Okay. 422 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,880 Zechariah 14 is an important verse of scripture. 423 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,240 It is describing the return of Jesus Christ. 424 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:16,240 Okay. 425 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:17,240 Okay. 426 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:28,280 It describes the return of Jesus Christ, the battle of Armageddon, and the, some of the 427 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:33,520 characteristics of the millennial reign of Jesus Christ. 428 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:39,520 Because we're talking about, we talked about last Sunday how there is no avoiding discipline. 429 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,960 Jesus suffered your punishment for you. 430 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:47,560 So he was your substitute in that regard, but no one can substitute for the discipline 431 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,080 that is required to produce holiness in your mind and heart. 432 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:52,080 Okay. 433 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:57,000 So let's look at some of the discipline that's going to be enforced during the millennial 434 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,120 reign of Jesus Christ. 435 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:07,000 Okay. 436 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:12,160 So we've been introduced in Zechariah 14 to the return of Jesus Christ, the battle of 437 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:18,720 Armageddon, Jesus overcoming. 438 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,520 And here's what it says in verse 12. 439 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,200 I'm going to start in verse 12. 440 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,680 This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against 441 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:30,840 Jerusalem. 442 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,840 Their flesh will rot while they're still standing on their feet. 443 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,320 Their eyes will rot on their sockets. 444 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,320 This is talking about the people that fought against Jerusalem, the people who pledged 445 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,400 loyalty with the forces of evil. 446 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:43,400 Okay. 447 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,860 So doesn't mean every person and their tongues will rot in their mouths. 448 00:32:47,860 --> 00:32:50,900 On that day, men will be stricken by the Lord with great panic. 449 00:32:50,900 --> 00:32:54,440 Each man will seize the hand of another and they will attack each other. 450 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,460 Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. 451 00:32:56,460 --> 00:33:00,240 The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected. 452 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:01,240 Okay. 453 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,480 So money is going to be important in the next stage. 454 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:11,600 We're still going to have things like wealth and objects of value, great quantities of 455 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,320 gold and silver and clothing. 456 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,320 So all of the things you care about in this life are going to be important in the next 457 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:19,560 life. 458 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:25,880 Verse 15, a similar plague will strike the horses and mules and camels and donkeys and 459 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,920 all the animals in those camps. 460 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:35,920 Verse 16, then the survivors from all the nations, okay. 461 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,360 You get that? 462 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:48,080 That have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty 463 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,240 and to celebrate the feast of tabernacles. 464 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,960 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the 465 00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:00,560 Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. 466 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:05,000 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. 467 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:09,660 The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up 468 00:34:09,660 --> 00:34:12,800 to celebrate the feast of tabernacles. 469 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:17,260 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not 470 00:34:17,260 --> 00:34:22,440 go up to celebrate the feast of tabernacles. 471 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,000 So do you see how this is painting a different picture? 472 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,000 It is. 473 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:36,440 Then again, what we think of in regards to the afterlife. 474 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:47,740 It's holiness and progress towards manifesting the correct behavior. 475 00:34:47,740 --> 00:34:52,380 You're not going to have the freedom to avoid that anymore. 476 00:34:52,380 --> 00:34:58,560 There will still be punishment upon those beyond hell that are not obedient. 477 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:07,220 So now these these are unresurrected people from the nations that did not align with evil, 478 00:35:07,220 --> 00:35:10,960 but had not been united with God in the new birth either. 479 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,440 And so that's the particular group of people that we're talking about. 480 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:24,760 There will be required progress towards holiness for everyone. 481 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:33,240 It's just going to be a great joy and pleasure on orders of magnitude beyond what we have 482 00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:38,080 now as we make progress in these things. 483 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:39,080 Wow. 484 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:43,200 I'm gonna have to reread Zechariah. 485 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,160 Zechariah is a powerful book. 486 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,840 So yeah, Isaiah as well. 487 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:56,600 The closing chapters of Isaiah have some very profound ideas in there about God's plans 488 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,200 for the next age. 489 00:35:58,200 --> 00:35:59,200 Okay. 490 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:00,200 Yeah. 491 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:01,200 All right. 492 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,440 Well, thank you for listening to me and clarifying. 493 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:10,040 We're probably going to need to revisit this topic as we progress through the sermon series, 494 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:16,020 so keep taking notes because this is like I say, I know there's going to be many people 495 00:36:16,020 --> 00:36:19,480 that need to have some things clarified. 496 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:20,480 Okay. 497 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:21,480 So sounds good. 498 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,160 Thanks for coming in and doing this. 499 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,640 Yeah, as always, it's very it's been a big blessing to our church. 500 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:27,640 Thank you. 501 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:28,640 Amen. 502 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:47,360 Amen I am.