Okay. So welcome, Will Perkins. Glad to have you. It's always dangerous. You were reading
one of my sub stack articles and you're putting a question in the comments. And I always like
to do these publicly because there's going to be, you know, 20 people who have the same
question that really need to hear the answer. And so people typically enjoy these, um, these
conversations that we have. So thanks for agreeing to coming on. Yeah. I know you from
Camp Nova, but nobody else watching this, um, might know who you are. So just take a
minute to share a little bit about yourself, where you're at, what you're doing. Yeah.
I am. Um, I'm in Amarillo, Texas. I serve as the discipleship pastor at St. Paul Amarillo
global Methodist church. And, um, pretty much working with youth and college students and
young adults right now. And, uh, about to start working with some of the younger families
and parents. So that's kind of what I'm up to. I graduated from West Texas A and M two
and a half years ago, uh, interned there for a little while intern here at St. Paul, and
then found myself with a full time position here. So that's what I'm doing. That's good.
I keep seeing good things about that church. So, yeah, yeah. Now there are some other Wesley
kids on staff there. Um, I think we have, we have one media intern from the Wesley,
but besides that, it's just, yeah, just you very good. Any plans for going to seminary
in the future? Yeah. I'm, I'm currently attending Wesley biblical seminary right now. All right.
Exciting. Doing that online and actually just started my semester yesterday. So how cool
is that? Yeah. Now we're, uh, it's in Mississippi, I think, but I'm just doing the online program.
So gotcha. I think I saw you've got your little girlfriend on Facebook. Yeah. All right. Yeah.
Yeah. Awesome. That's a good family. Yeah. Yeah. Dudley's a great family. Well, great.
Glad to hear all that. Uh, excited for you. Uh, we're lucky that glow speaking for the
global Methodist church. We're lucky to have, uh, a guy like you coming into ministry and
doing great things. So I'm going to kick it to you now and I'll just let you kind of take
the conversation where you want to. Okay. Well, I'll kind of start with, um, like I
said in the comments, I've been wrestling with my views on eschatology for almost a
year now. Um, before that, I, I wasn't raised in the church and I became a Christian at
18 and didn't really take the Bible seriously till probably 20 or 21. And I kind of was,
I felt like I, at least in the tradition I was in, um, I thought the only way, uh, that
the end times are going to shake out is a pre tribulation or rapture, a seven year tribulation,
and Christ returned, you know, that all that. And I didn't know that there were other, um,
possibilities of how to interpret revelation, these different texts. Um, and I was kind
of told that anything besides that, that view is liberal. So I like just stayed away from
anything else. And then about a year ago, um, like you mentioned in your last podcast,
I just started thinking and, um, I started, I read through the Bible and in, in six months,
I did a plan and I realized that I was definitely guilty of, uh, iso Jesus, like you talked
about reading my theology into some things. So I tried to take a step back and that was
about when I actually came across Michael Heiser too. And, and just reading his stuff,
I feel like it taught me a little bit how to study the Bible. And I ended up in this
place where I'm like, okay, I don't know what I believe about eschatology anymore. Um, and
that's, so for the past year, I've been in that same season of wrestling through different
things and different views. And, uh, I think the first question that I had that in regards
to what you, the last episode, two episodes ago that you did, um, is in your, in your
review of, uh, the millennium and the end and all of that, what's kind of the chronology
of how it shakes out? So do you believe, I mean, where, where is the thousand year earthly
rain and Christ return and all that? What's the order of that?
Well, so I'm a huge fan boy of Michael Heiser as well. Nobody's a bigger fan boy of Michael
Heiser than me, but that guy is not like, I know he doesn't come across any of his eschatological
opinions or not, but he doesn't like the subject at all. You know, you know, people with the
type of brain that works like his, they really like certainty and like mathematical precision
in their thinking. And you're never going to get that with eschatology. It's more of
an art than it is a science. So that's the way I like to think of it. Uh, so, so I think
that whenever I teach eschatology, so I'm teaching revelation right now and I'll present
all of the different views, uh, and how all of those views have validity to a certain
extent in interpreting prophetic material. You know, you've got the idealist approach
where you allegorize the text and some people will call that liberal, right? Because you
know, it's just all symbolic. So, and liberals will do that to a dysfunctional extent, you
know, even saying the resurrection of Jesus is an allegory for something else, which we
obviously reject that. But the problem with rejecting that altogether is the Bible allegorizes
the Bible. You know, you see Paul doing that in Galatians where he's comparing Sarah and
Hagar and he says, this is an allegory for it says that explicitly. So you can't reject
that altogether. And then with the millennial approach where they use a preterist interpretation
of scripture, it's all been fulfilled in the past. Well, a lot of it has been fulfilled
in the past. And so that is a valid way to interpret a lot of Bible prophecy. Uh, but
overall I'll make the argument as to why I believe the pre-millennial. So, you know,
this distinction between dispensational pre-millennialism and historic. Yes. Why, why I believe that
the pre-millennial interpretation to scripture overall is the best interpretive grid. Uh,
because you will find that thinking reflected in pre-Christian literature. Okay. So before
the new Testament is even written, you have ancient Jewish people thinking that, uh, since
God created the earth in six days, there will be six millennial days, 6,000 years of human
history. And they projected the final thousand years of human history would be a Sabbath,
a time of Sabbath rest where the earth was a perfect piece. So there are the seeds of
pre-millennialism right there in ancient Jewish thinking. Then if you take the plain, plain
meaning of the new Testament text, let the Bible say what it means and means what it
says, uh, which I think is all things being equal, the right approach when the Bible is
allegorizing typically it will give you a clue. Like I saw one like a dragon, seven
headed dragon come out of the sea and give you clues, you know? Yeah. And then lastly,
the majority of the early church fathers before 300 AD referred to as the anti-Nasian fathers
were all, were mostly pre-millennial. Now that includes very, two very important people,
polycarp and Papias who both claim to have been discipled by the apostle John personally.
Uh-huh. I believe it's Papias that says the apostle John told me directly. And you can
see this in his writings and his fragments that there would be a literal 1000 year reign
of Jesus Christ on the earth. So I believe, you know, we, we don't interpret scripture
in a vacuum. Yeah. So John Wesley was also affirmed pre-millennialism. I don't know if
you've read any of my content on that or not, but, uh, I read a little bit of that, uh,
the microform you wrote. Okay, good. So to me, you know, we're not like coming up with
our own eschatology or our own ideas. Like a lot of people like to do, we are interpreting
this within a very well established tradition of thought that has a good track record of
John Wesley has a very good track record of getting it right. Uh, and if that's how the
early church fathers received it from the apostle John himself who wrote the book probably
a reliable testimony, you know, so that's the timeline of pre-millennialism. There will
be a, a time of great tribulation, which will be three and a half years of unprecedented
trouble believers will know when that is happening. The apostle Paul tells us that we will not
be caught off guard. We won't be surprised by it. The return of Jesus Christ will happen
to put an end to that time period. And the return of Jesus, the resurrection from the
dead and the rapture of the church consistently are taught in scripture to all happen at the
same time. Okay. Yeah. And Jesus will begin a 1000 year rain earthly rain on the earth
where he establishes a global government from, uh, Jerusalem, the capital city. Now that's
in a nutshell right there for a thousand years, preparing the earth for God, the father to
be able to live on the earth with us. That's always been the plan. That's the garden of
Eden. It's the old Testament, a Tabernacle. It's the temple. It's the person of Jesus
Christ. It's the new Testament church. God's desire to live on the earth with us. He says
it's going to prepare the earth for that to happen because God would kill everything.
He only manifests himself without preparation. He would destroy everything, you know, uh,
and that will be the inauguration of the eternal state. So that's kind of a rough sketch. Okay.
Yeah. And that's when the new heavens, new earth are brought in after that thousand year.
Yeah. Now there's some things I don't fully understand. Like it talks about the earth
being destroyed by fire. When exactly is that going to happen? How is it going to happen?
Is it going to happen all at once or is it going to be a process? You know, we don't
have the answers to all of that, but yeah, the Bible says in Hebrews that there will
be some things that remain. Right. I think that's Hebrews chapter 12, since everything
is going to be destroyed in such a way. And it's like, I don't know if I could find it
real quick, but there will be things that remain. It says in the book of Hebrews. And
so that's something that as the, I believe is the church we're doing is we're in training
to participate in building permanent things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that, that timeline
kind of leads me to my next question. On this timeline, when is death destroyed? Do you
believe that death will continue during the time of Christ's earthly reign? Okay. That's
good. We can get into that question because that's something we discussed on the, one
of the articles that I'd read. Okay. You remember which verses from first Corinthians we were
going to be looking at? I, on my notes, I have a verse first Corinthians 15 at first
or the first chunk is 22 through 28 and then 50 through 58. Okay. So I've got that here.
Now I want to read through this. And so let's think about it together because I actually
use this verse as a justification for Paul being pre-millennial. Okay. Understanding
of things. So I'll start in verse 21 for as by a man came death by a man has come also
the resurrection of the dead for as an Adam all die. So in Christ shall all be made alive,
but each in his own order. Now this is kind of a complicated burst to understand in my
opinion. Okay. And I'm not exactly sure how this should be punctuated in the original
language. I'm no expert in, in Greek or anything, but you've got Christ talking about the resurrection
from the dead, each in his own order. Christ, number one, the first fruits, number two,
written at his coming, those who belong to Christ. So you've got Christ was the first
raised from the dead. Then you've got all those old Testament saints that were raised
up out of their tombs, right? And that's the first fruits. Okay. The general resurrection
from the dead, which happens at the return of Christ. Okay. Now verse 24, then comes
the end when he delivers the kingdom to God and the father after destroying every rule,
every authority and every power. Now here's the question. Is that something Jesus is doing
during the millennium or is it something he just does all at once at his return? It's
not really that clear, is it? No. Okay. Verse 25. He must reign until he has put all his
enemies under his feet. Now we're going to see all of these to me are ambiguous, but
I think we can get more clarity if we read through revelation 20 together. Okay. Okay.
And we'll keep, keep reading verse 26, the last enemy to be destroyed is death for God
has put all things in subjection under his feet. Now I think there are probably a lot
of different ways that could legitimately be interpreted. There's a lot of wiggle room
and how to understand that if you just take that at face value. But if we go to revelation
chapter 20 and I won't read through the whole thing because I did that with my last podcast.
I think we can kind of just hit the highlights here. Yeah, sure. So revelation 19, Jesus
is coming in the context of a war to destroy an evil satanic system. Jesus returns. He
destroys that satanic system and all those who've pledged loyalty to it. And then revelation
20 verse one shows that it's a continuation of that train of thought because it starts
with the word then, right? Then I saw an angel coming down. And so this is the chaining of
Satan to the bottomless pit, which is distinct from the lake of fire. Okay. We're going to
talk about that later in revelation 20. So clearly this is not the same binding as that
two different judgments. Okay. Yeah. Uh, then you have the inauguration of the thousand
year reign of Christ that is described there, uh, throughout that chapter to Satan is bound
from deceiving the nations. One thing I like to point out, I'm millennialist like to say,
well, Satan is only bound from blinding the minds of people from believing the gospel.
Okay. That's not what the text says. The text says his, he's bound from deceiving the nations
or the governments of the earth. And so that's why we have this unprecedented Sabbath, 1000
years of peace under the leadership, uninhibited leadership of Jesus Christ. Now let's get
down. Well, two or seven. Okay. Again, it starts with the word and then talking about
a continuation of the previous train of thought. When thousand years are ended, Satan will
be released from his prison. So there you have it. The enemies put under Jesus feet
from first Corinthians are still in existence and operation at the end of the millennium.
Okay. Verse eight and we'll come out to deceive the nations that are the four corners of the
earth. Gog and Magog to gather them up for battle. Their number is like the sand of the
sea. So Jesus is going to still have a lot of enemies apparently at the end of the millennium.
And they marched dope up over the broad plane of the earth and surrounded the camp of the
saints and fire came down and consumed them. And the devil who had deceived them was thrown
into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented
to day and night forever and ever. And then if we skip down a little bit further verse
13, the sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were
in them and they were judged each one of them according to what they had done. Then death
and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. So there you see the last enemy is death and
Hades. Okay. Millennium, you know? And so that's why I read from first Corinthians, there's
a process being described that is made more explicit in revelation chapter 20, where it
says death and Hades and all of Jesus' enemies being put under his feet is a consequence
of a process that ends with at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ.
Okay. I have like three or four questions that you kind of spread out for me. So who,
well, one, Satan is bound from deceiving the nations any longer. And when he's unbound,
he comes out to deceive the nations to gather them for battle. Right? Who is he gathering
for battle? Cause in revelation 19, if you read it chronologically, it seemed to me that
Jesus came and slayed everybody who was against them.
There are, so I see three groups of people in the book of revelation. Okay. You got those
who are loyal to Jesus Christ, who resist the anti-Christ system. You got those who
get an agreement with it. Okay. But then you also have, now you're going to have to go
outside of revelation to find this. You'll find this in a lot of old Testament texts
like Zechariah chapter 14, and then you'll find it in the closing chapters of Isaiah.
There are nations that do not necessarily fit either of those categories. Okay. So the
text talks about news from the East, troubling anti-Christ. So not everybody is on board
with his political and economic agenda. And there's a lot of examples in the text where
the Bible talks about the whole world coming under this, that, or the other influence,
but it's clearly not talking about the whole world because at the timeframe in which the
Bible was written. Yeah. It's the known world. Yeah. It's the known world. Yeah. Which I
do think the anti-Christ influence will be global in scope. It's just not going to be
in control of every area. You know, like I said, you honestly think some unreached tribe
and that group of people who Satan will deceive to make war against the people of God. So
Satan will have control of the dominant governments and economic systems of the earth. And the
Bible says in revelation 19, he gathers his armies to make war against Jesus Christ. So
that doesn't mean every man, woman and child from the planet are going to show up at the
battle of Armageddon to participate in a war against Jesus. Right. It's specifically the
armies of anti-Christ that are gathered to make war. And Jesus is pouring out his wrath
on those armies. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So another question, what would you say to the claim
that every time the number 1000 is used in the Bible, it's not literal. And I can just
read a couple of examples real quick. So like Psalm 50, you have the cattle on a thousand
hills. You have Joshua 23, one man of you puts to flight 1000 since it is the Lord,
your God who fights for you. May the Lord. Oh yeah. Good. Oh no, I was just waving at
people. Oh, okay. May the Lord make you a thousand times as many as you are and bless
you. If we go to the new Testament, don't overlook this fact that with the Lord one
day is as thousand years and a thousand years as a day. What would you say to someone saying
that those not that that specific number used throughout the Bible? It doesn't mean it doesn't
have to mean exactly a thousand and not a thousand and one or, you know, but it's just
a, a long or a huge amount. I probably wouldn't argue that. I think, you know, most of the
numbers in revelation probably are symbolic. That one might be as well. So to me, that
doesn't change the concept of Jesus Christ returning to the earth, engaging in a process
by which he takes control of the nations to make the planet into the garden of Eden like
conditions that Adam and he recalled. Okay. I will say this though. Uh huh. The fact that
revelation chapter 20 mentions it like six times, you know, why is it repeating it that
much? Okay. So that catches your attention a little bit. If I were, if I were gambling,
if you were just forced me to put like a thousand dollars and whether or not it was literal
or symbolic, I would probably put my money on literal. But, uh, I mean, if I lost, what
difference does it make? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, let's see. I'm looking
at my notes. My next question. Um, okay. So you answered about, about death. Uh, when
Christ comes to, uh, rule on earth and, um, first Corinthians 15 later on, it says flesh
and blood do not inherit the kingdom of God. Um, will, how's that going to work? Is he
bringing the kingdom at the beginning of the thousand years or not till after the thousand
years? How does that shake itself out?
So the picture you have in revelation 21 is this beautiful city coming down out of heaven.
Uh, and so resurrected people are going to inherit the kingdom. Okay. Again, a lot of
these questions are difficult to answer. Like what about the people that can get to continue
to live? And again, to me, that's clear in passages like Zechariah 14, uh, the last few
chapters of Isaiah, even revelation 20 with this rebellion that happens, it's not resurrected
people engaging in a rebellion. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So what is going to be their fate at
the end of the millennial reign of Jesus Christ? A lot of this is unclear, but if you read
the end of revelation 20, there's another judgment and implied in that is there's going
to be people who are judged according to the works that they had done. Some for good, some
for evil, you know? So to what extent they have an inheritance at the end of that timeframe.
That's ambiguous. I don't know. I mean, I would assume that they would to a certain
extent, but, um, that's just kind of speculation, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think my, my last big
question and it might, I don't know if this will take too long or what, but, uh, I mentioned
it in the comment and I just thought I asked you what your thoughts are on recapitulation
in revelation. Um, because to me, one of the things that is weird to me, um, cause I used
to, you know, only strictly read it chronologically, like it's a sequential chronological development.
And um, the last time I went through it, I felt like I got to the end, like the end of
human history, like four different times in revelation six, I felt like it was the end.
It really seemed like it. Revelation 11, same thing, 19 and then 20. Um, it seemed like
four different times I got to the end. And, um, so it started making me think, um, is
he, is John receiving these visions in this chronological order, but they don't necessarily
unfold chronologically. And to me, that would make sense of some of the, then I saw, then
I saw, you know, is the order in which he's seeing it, but does that necessitate that
it's the order in which these things happen? Um, I noticed one specific example that was
interesting to me is revelation six. There's some just very serious destruction on the
earth. And then in the next chapter, seven, three, it says, do not harm the earth, see
the trees. Um, and also there's like the sun and moon and stars losing their light. And
then later they have light again. And it's like, you know, kind of this, it seemed like
a repeated, um, course of events from different angles, maybe. And they, they get to the end
three or four different times. What are your thoughts on that?
So I see all those same things you're talking about, especially in revelation chapter six.
Okay. And I can honestly say I don't have a firm position on his revelation chapter
six, like a precursor to the tribulation where the antichrist begins kind of his political
career until, you know, I don't know, because you're right. A lot of that stuff is repeated
later on in the pan. And so must it, a lot of the best thinking I see is a lot of these
are parallel counts of the same thing with more detail. And then it's got the pauses
where an angel stops to kind of give the angels interpretation of what's going on, you know?
Uh, so, you know, I can't honestly say that it's, I feel comfortable taking a firm position
on that. I've still got a lot of questions myself. And I, that's why I remain open. I
think it's always best to be humble and I think you've got it all figured out and God
can clear this up for me maybe, you know, in the coming years.
Yeah. No, I appreciate that answer because, yeah, I just hadn't heard, I hadn't heard
that answer before. Usually it's, you know, a couple of times that I've asked somebody
about this, it's, are you starting to symbolize or, you know, symbolize the way the Bible
and, you know, just take it for what it says. And I'm like, well, you know, it's apocalyptic
literature. That's another thing. The genre that I'm like, I don't know how to read this
genre in ancient apocalypse. So, uh, yeah, I, I'm still wrestling through the possibility
that, you know, Revelation six does describe the end. And then there's another review of
everything else. It ends in 11 and then it ends in 19. And then that's why I'm left with
Revelation 20 possibly not being a continuation sequentially of 19. Does that make sense?
Yeah. Yeah. And that's, uh, that's fair. Um, I do think revelation is telling a story.
I do think we are capable of understanding it. I do think there's a rhyme or reason to
it. So I don't think it's just a bunch of random things mashed together that, you know,
so I, so, so I do think that you do see at the end of the book, a process, the final
destruction of evil, harlot Babylon, those political and economic systems, Jesus destroys
them. He inaugurates his kingdom where Satan is bound, which clearly he is not right now.
So to me, it's absolute nonsense to think that we're living in some millennium right
now. Uh, and the process is leading to God living on the earth with us. So that's why
I see, especially in revelation 17, 18, 19, a winding up of things and a sequential goal
or plan of God that God wants us to be aware of, you know, all of the events that go on
that are going to bring that climax to its head are going to be, I believe they'll get
more clear the closer to that timeframe we come. Uh, can I, uh, can I offer one of the
things that made me at least got me thinking, cause you said, you just said, uh, we're not
in a millennium right now because Satan's not bound, uh, at least not to deceive the
nations. Um, one of the things that got me thinking that I have to, I wanted to entertain
the possibility of us being in the millennium with Satan bound is verse seven and eight
of revolution 20, that when he is released from this binding, he comes out to deceive
the nations to make war against the people of God. Right. And, uh, that at least for
me, I could, I could, Satan is still prowling around doing his thing, but he can't, at least
right now, gather all the nations to make war against the church right now. That's what
he's restricted from doing. And if that is what he's bound, um, with respect to in revelation
20, then I could kind of see, okay, maybe, you know, Christ is ruling in the heavens.
He's not really on earth. And then, you know, verse 40 talks about seeing thrones and, uh,
seeing the faithful ones who, you know, are given authority to judge sitting on the thrones
too. And it's like, well, maybe it's not a literal earthly throne. Maybe it's in heaven
and he's reigning in heaven with the saints and, uh, at his return, you know, I don't
know if that, if that makes any sense, but it at least got me thinking too, we could
be in the millennium. It just might not look like what I thought it did. Okay. I've got
a minute and 20 seconds. Okay. You do that question. Well, so just look, uh, the plans
and purposes of God from the book of Genesis to the book of revelation are for the earth.
Okay. That's number one. God's plan from the beginning is to rule the earth, uh, with his
family participating with them. So the idea of Jesus ruling spiritually from heaven, um,
is it consistent with what the entire testimony of scripture is about to me. Okay. Now, so
the other point I'd like to make, and I'm sympathetic towards your view, by the way,
I've mold that over in my head as well, but the interpretation that you gave of Satan
being bound from waging war on the nations, I think probably if you lived in the middle
east in an Islamic country right now, you wouldn't feel the way that you do about, uh,
that binding. Yeah. Yeah. I could see that. You know, or even in parts of China for that
matter, you know, but yeah. So, so Satan to me is very clearly very active and it is very
dangerous to be a Christian.