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Okay. So welcome, Will Perkins. Glad to have you. It's always dangerous. You were reading

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one of my sub stack articles and you're putting a question in the comments. And I always like

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to do these publicly because there's going to be, you know, 20 people who have the same

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question that really need to hear the answer. And so people typically enjoy these, um, these

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conversations that we have. So thanks for agreeing to coming on. Yeah. I know you from

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Camp Nova, but nobody else watching this, um, might know who you are. So just take a

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minute to share a little bit about yourself, where you're at, what you're doing. Yeah.

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I am. Um, I'm in Amarillo, Texas. I serve as the discipleship pastor at St. Paul Amarillo

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global Methodist church. And, um, pretty much working with youth and college students and

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young adults right now. And, uh, about to start working with some of the younger families

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and parents. So that's kind of what I'm up to. I graduated from West Texas A and M two

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and a half years ago, uh, interned there for a little while intern here at St. Paul, and

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then found myself with a full time position here. So that's what I'm doing. That's good.

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I keep seeing good things about that church. So, yeah, yeah. Now there are some other Wesley

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kids on staff there. Um, I think we have, we have one media intern from the Wesley,

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but besides that, it's just, yeah, just you very good. Any plans for going to seminary

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in the future? Yeah. I'm, I'm currently attending Wesley biblical seminary right now. All right.

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Exciting. Doing that online and actually just started my semester yesterday. So how cool

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is that? Yeah. Now we're, uh, it's in Mississippi, I think, but I'm just doing the online program.

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So gotcha. I think I saw you've got your little girlfriend on Facebook. Yeah. All right. Yeah.

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Yeah. Awesome. That's a good family. Yeah. Yeah. Dudley's a great family. Well, great.

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Glad to hear all that. Uh, excited for you. Uh, we're lucky that glow speaking for the

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global Methodist church. We're lucky to have, uh, a guy like you coming into ministry and

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doing great things. So I'm going to kick it to you now and I'll just let you kind of take

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the conversation where you want to. Okay. Well, I'll kind of start with, um, like I

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said in the comments, I've been wrestling with my views on eschatology for almost a

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year now. Um, before that, I, I wasn't raised in the church and I became a Christian at

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18 and didn't really take the Bible seriously till probably 20 or 21. And I kind of was,

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I felt like I, at least in the tradition I was in, um, I thought the only way, uh, that

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the end times are going to shake out is a pre tribulation or rapture, a seven year tribulation,

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and Christ returned, you know, that all that. And I didn't know that there were other, um,

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possibilities of how to interpret revelation, these different texts. Um, and I was kind

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of told that anything besides that, that view is liberal. So I like just stayed away from

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anything else. And then about a year ago, um, like you mentioned in your last podcast,

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I just started thinking and, um, I started, I read through the Bible and in, in six months,

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I did a plan and I realized that I was definitely guilty of, uh, iso Jesus, like you talked

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about reading my theology into some things. So I tried to take a step back and that was

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about when I actually came across Michael Heiser too. And, and just reading his stuff,

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I feel like it taught me a little bit how to study the Bible. And I ended up in this

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place where I'm like, okay, I don't know what I believe about eschatology anymore. Um, and

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that's, so for the past year, I've been in that same season of wrestling through different

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things and different views. And, uh, I think the first question that I had that in regards

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to what you, the last episode, two episodes ago that you did, um, is in your, in your

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review of, uh, the millennium and the end and all of that, what's kind of the chronology

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of how it shakes out? So do you believe, I mean, where, where is the thousand year earthly

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rain and Christ return and all that? What's the order of that?

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Well, so I'm a huge fan boy of Michael Heiser as well. Nobody's a bigger fan boy of Michael

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Heiser than me, but that guy is not like, I know he doesn't come across any of his eschatological

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opinions or not, but he doesn't like the subject at all. You know, you know, people with the

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type of brain that works like his, they really like certainty and like mathematical precision

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in their thinking. And you're never going to get that with eschatology. It's more of

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an art than it is a science. So that's the way I like to think of it. Uh, so, so I think

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that whenever I teach eschatology, so I'm teaching revelation right now and I'll present

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all of the different views, uh, and how all of those views have validity to a certain

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extent in interpreting prophetic material. You know, you've got the idealist approach

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where you allegorize the text and some people will call that liberal, right? Because you

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know, it's just all symbolic. So, and liberals will do that to a dysfunctional extent, you

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know, even saying the resurrection of Jesus is an allegory for something else, which we

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obviously reject that. But the problem with rejecting that altogether is the Bible allegorizes

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the Bible. You know, you see Paul doing that in Galatians where he's comparing Sarah and

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Hagar and he says, this is an allegory for it says that explicitly. So you can't reject

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that altogether. And then with the millennial approach where they use a preterist interpretation

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of scripture, it's all been fulfilled in the past. Well, a lot of it has been fulfilled

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in the past. And so that is a valid way to interpret a lot of Bible prophecy. Uh, but

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overall I'll make the argument as to why I believe the pre-millennial. So, you know,

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this distinction between dispensational pre-millennialism and historic. Yes. Why, why I believe that

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the pre-millennial interpretation to scripture overall is the best interpretive grid. Uh,

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because you will find that thinking reflected in pre-Christian literature. Okay. So before

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the new Testament is even written, you have ancient Jewish people thinking that, uh, since

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God created the earth in six days, there will be six millennial days, 6,000 years of human

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history. And they projected the final thousand years of human history would be a Sabbath,

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a time of Sabbath rest where the earth was a perfect piece. So there are the seeds of

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pre-millennialism right there in ancient Jewish thinking. Then if you take the plain, plain

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meaning of the new Testament text, let the Bible say what it means and means what it

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says, uh, which I think is all things being equal, the right approach when the Bible is

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allegorizing typically it will give you a clue. Like I saw one like a dragon, seven

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headed dragon come out of the sea and give you clues, you know? Yeah. And then lastly,

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the majority of the early church fathers before 300 AD referred to as the anti-Nasian fathers

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were all, were mostly pre-millennial. Now that includes very, two very important people,

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polycarp and Papias who both claim to have been discipled by the apostle John personally.

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Uh-huh. I believe it's Papias that says the apostle John told me directly. And you can

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see this in his writings and his fragments that there would be a literal 1000 year reign

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of Jesus Christ on the earth. So I believe, you know, we, we don't interpret scripture

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in a vacuum. Yeah. So John Wesley was also affirmed pre-millennialism. I don't know if

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you've read any of my content on that or not, but, uh, I read a little bit of that, uh,

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the microform you wrote. Okay, good. So to me, you know, we're not like coming up with

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our own eschatology or our own ideas. Like a lot of people like to do, we are interpreting

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this within a very well established tradition of thought that has a good track record of

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John Wesley has a very good track record of getting it right. Uh, and if that's how the

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early church fathers received it from the apostle John himself who wrote the book probably

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a reliable testimony, you know, so that's the timeline of pre-millennialism. There will

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be a, a time of great tribulation, which will be three and a half years of unprecedented

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trouble believers will know when that is happening. The apostle Paul tells us that we will not

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be caught off guard. We won't be surprised by it. The return of Jesus Christ will happen

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to put an end to that time period. And the return of Jesus, the resurrection from the

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dead and the rapture of the church consistently are taught in scripture to all happen at the

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same time. Okay. Yeah. And Jesus will begin a 1000 year rain earthly rain on the earth

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where he establishes a global government from, uh, Jerusalem, the capital city. Now that's

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in a nutshell right there for a thousand years, preparing the earth for God, the father to

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be able to live on the earth with us. That's always been the plan. That's the garden of

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Eden. It's the old Testament, a Tabernacle. It's the temple. It's the person of Jesus

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Christ. It's the new Testament church. God's desire to live on the earth with us. He says

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it's going to prepare the earth for that to happen because God would kill everything.

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He only manifests himself without preparation. He would destroy everything, you know, uh,

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and that will be the inauguration of the eternal state. So that's kind of a rough sketch. Okay.

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Yeah. And that's when the new heavens, new earth are brought in after that thousand year.

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Yeah. Now there's some things I don't fully understand. Like it talks about the earth

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being destroyed by fire. When exactly is that going to happen? How is it going to happen?

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Is it going to happen all at once or is it going to be a process? You know, we don't

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have the answers to all of that, but yeah, the Bible says in Hebrews that there will

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be some things that remain. Right. I think that's Hebrews chapter 12, since everything

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is going to be destroyed in such a way. And it's like, I don't know if I could find it

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real quick, but there will be things that remain. It says in the book of Hebrews. And

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so that's something that as the, I believe is the church we're doing is we're in training

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to participate in building permanent things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that, that timeline

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kind of leads me to my next question. On this timeline, when is death destroyed? Do you

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believe that death will continue during the time of Christ's earthly reign? Okay. That's

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good. We can get into that question because that's something we discussed on the, one

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of the articles that I'd read. Okay. You remember which verses from first Corinthians we were

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going to be looking at? I, on my notes, I have a verse first Corinthians 15 at first

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or the first chunk is 22 through 28 and then 50 through 58. Okay. So I've got that here.

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Now I want to read through this. And so let's think about it together because I actually

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use this verse as a justification for Paul being pre-millennial. Okay. Understanding

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of things. So I'll start in verse 21 for as by a man came death by a man has come also

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the resurrection of the dead for as an Adam all die. So in Christ shall all be made alive,

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but each in his own order. Now this is kind of a complicated burst to understand in my

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opinion. Okay. And I'm not exactly sure how this should be punctuated in the original

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language. I'm no expert in, in Greek or anything, but you've got Christ talking about the resurrection

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from the dead, each in his own order. Christ, number one, the first fruits, number two,

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written at his coming, those who belong to Christ. So you've got Christ was the first

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raised from the dead. Then you've got all those old Testament saints that were raised

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up out of their tombs, right? And that's the first fruits. Okay. The general resurrection

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from the dead, which happens at the return of Christ. Okay. Now verse 24, then comes

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the end when he delivers the kingdom to God and the father after destroying every rule,

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every authority and every power. Now here's the question. Is that something Jesus is doing

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during the millennium or is it something he just does all at once at his return? It's

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not really that clear, is it? No. Okay. Verse 25. He must reign until he has put all his

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enemies under his feet. Now we're going to see all of these to me are ambiguous, but

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I think we can get more clarity if we read through revelation 20 together. Okay. Okay.

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And we'll keep, keep reading verse 26, the last enemy to be destroyed is death for God

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has put all things in subjection under his feet. Now I think there are probably a lot

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of different ways that could legitimately be interpreted. There's a lot of wiggle room

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and how to understand that if you just take that at face value. But if we go to revelation

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chapter 20 and I won't read through the whole thing because I did that with my last podcast.

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I think we can kind of just hit the highlights here. Yeah, sure. So revelation 19, Jesus

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is coming in the context of a war to destroy an evil satanic system. Jesus returns. He

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destroys that satanic system and all those who've pledged loyalty to it. And then revelation

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20 verse one shows that it's a continuation of that train of thought because it starts

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with the word then, right? Then I saw an angel coming down. And so this is the chaining of

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Satan to the bottomless pit, which is distinct from the lake of fire. Okay. We're going to

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talk about that later in revelation 20. So clearly this is not the same binding as that

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two different judgments. Okay. Yeah. Uh, then you have the inauguration of the thousand

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year reign of Christ that is described there, uh, throughout that chapter to Satan is bound

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from deceiving the nations. One thing I like to point out, I'm millennialist like to say,

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well, Satan is only bound from blinding the minds of people from believing the gospel.

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Okay. That's not what the text says. The text says his, he's bound from deceiving the nations

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or the governments of the earth. And so that's why we have this unprecedented Sabbath, 1000

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years of peace under the leadership, uninhibited leadership of Jesus Christ. Now let's get

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down. Well, two or seven. Okay. Again, it starts with the word and then talking about

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a continuation of the previous train of thought. When thousand years are ended, Satan will

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be released from his prison. So there you have it. The enemies put under Jesus feet

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from first Corinthians are still in existence and operation at the end of the millennium.

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Okay. Verse eight and we'll come out to deceive the nations that are the four corners of the

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earth. Gog and Magog to gather them up for battle. Their number is like the sand of the

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sea. So Jesus is going to still have a lot of enemies apparently at the end of the millennium.

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And they marched dope up over the broad plane of the earth and surrounded the camp of the

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saints and fire came down and consumed them. And the devil who had deceived them was thrown

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into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented

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to day and night forever and ever. And then if we skip down a little bit further verse

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13, the sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were

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in them and they were judged each one of them according to what they had done. Then death

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and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. So there you see the last enemy is death and

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Hades. Okay. Millennium, you know? And so that's why I read from first Corinthians, there's

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a process being described that is made more explicit in revelation chapter 20, where it

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says death and Hades and all of Jesus' enemies being put under his feet is a consequence

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of a process that ends with at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ.

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Okay. I have like three or four questions that you kind of spread out for me. So who,

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well, one, Satan is bound from deceiving the nations any longer. And when he's unbound,

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he comes out to deceive the nations to gather them for battle. Right? Who is he gathering

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for battle? Cause in revelation 19, if you read it chronologically, it seemed to me that

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Jesus came and slayed everybody who was against them.

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There are, so I see three groups of people in the book of revelation. Okay. You got those

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who are loyal to Jesus Christ, who resist the anti-Christ system. You got those who

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get an agreement with it. Okay. But then you also have, now you're going to have to go

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outside of revelation to find this. You'll find this in a lot of old Testament texts

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like Zechariah chapter 14, and then you'll find it in the closing chapters of Isaiah.

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There are nations that do not necessarily fit either of those categories. Okay. So the

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text talks about news from the East, troubling anti-Christ. So not everybody is on board

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with his political and economic agenda. And there's a lot of examples in the text where

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the Bible talks about the whole world coming under this, that, or the other influence,

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but it's clearly not talking about the whole world because at the timeframe in which the

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Bible was written. Yeah. It's the known world. Yeah. It's the known world. Yeah. Which I

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do think the anti-Christ influence will be global in scope. It's just not going to be

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in control of every area. You know, like I said, you honestly think some unreached tribe

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and that group of people who Satan will deceive to make war against the people of God. So

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Satan will have control of the dominant governments and economic systems of the earth. And the

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Bible says in revelation 19, he gathers his armies to make war against Jesus Christ. So

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that doesn't mean every man, woman and child from the planet are going to show up at the

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battle of Armageddon to participate in a war against Jesus. Right. It's specifically the

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armies of anti-Christ that are gathered to make war. And Jesus is pouring out his wrath

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on those armies. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So another question, what would you say to the claim

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that every time the number 1000 is used in the Bible, it's not literal. And I can just

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read a couple of examples real quick. So like Psalm 50, you have the cattle on a thousand

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hills. You have Joshua 23, one man of you puts to flight 1000 since it is the Lord,

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your God who fights for you. May the Lord. Oh yeah. Good. Oh no, I was just waving at

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people. Oh, okay. May the Lord make you a thousand times as many as you are and bless

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you. If we go to the new Testament, don't overlook this fact that with the Lord one

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day is as thousand years and a thousand years as a day. What would you say to someone saying

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that those not that that specific number used throughout the Bible? It doesn't mean it doesn't

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have to mean exactly a thousand and not a thousand and one or, you know, but it's just

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a, a long or a huge amount. I probably wouldn't argue that. I think, you know, most of the

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numbers in revelation probably are symbolic. That one might be as well. So to me, that

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doesn't change the concept of Jesus Christ returning to the earth, engaging in a process

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by which he takes control of the nations to make the planet into the garden of Eden like

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conditions that Adam and he recalled. Okay. I will say this though. Uh huh. The fact that

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revelation chapter 20 mentions it like six times, you know, why is it repeating it that

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much? Okay. So that catches your attention a little bit. If I were, if I were gambling,

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if you were just forced me to put like a thousand dollars and whether or not it was literal

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or symbolic, I would probably put my money on literal. But, uh, I mean, if I lost, what

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difference does it make? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, let's see. I'm looking

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at my notes. My next question. Um, okay. So you answered about, about death. Uh, when

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Christ comes to, uh, rule on earth and, um, first Corinthians 15 later on, it says flesh

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and blood do not inherit the kingdom of God. Um, will, how's that going to work? Is he

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bringing the kingdom at the beginning of the thousand years or not till after the thousand

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years? How does that shake itself out?

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So the picture you have in revelation 21 is this beautiful city coming down out of heaven.

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Uh, and so resurrected people are going to inherit the kingdom. Okay. Again, a lot of

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these questions are difficult to answer. Like what about the people that can get to continue

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to live? And again, to me, that's clear in passages like Zechariah 14, uh, the last few

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chapters of Isaiah, even revelation 20 with this rebellion that happens, it's not resurrected

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people engaging in a rebellion. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So what is going to be their fate at

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the end of the millennial reign of Jesus Christ? A lot of this is unclear, but if you read

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the end of revelation 20, there's another judgment and implied in that is there's going

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to be people who are judged according to the works that they had done. Some for good, some

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for evil, you know? So to what extent they have an inheritance at the end of that timeframe.

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That's ambiguous. I don't know. I mean, I would assume that they would to a certain

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extent, but, um, that's just kind of speculation, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think my, my last big

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question and it might, I don't know if this will take too long or what, but, uh, I mentioned

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it in the comment and I just thought I asked you what your thoughts are on recapitulation

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in revelation. Um, because to me, one of the things that is weird to me, um, cause I used

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to, you know, only strictly read it chronologically, like it's a sequential chronological development.

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And um, the last time I went through it, I felt like I got to the end, like the end of

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human history, like four different times in revelation six, I felt like it was the end.

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It really seemed like it. Revelation 11, same thing, 19 and then 20. Um, it seemed like

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four different times I got to the end. And, um, so it started making me think, um, is

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he, is John receiving these visions in this chronological order, but they don't necessarily

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unfold chronologically. And to me, that would make sense of some of the, then I saw, then

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I saw, you know, is the order in which he's seeing it, but does that necessitate that

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it's the order in which these things happen? Um, I noticed one specific example that was

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interesting to me is revelation six. There's some just very serious destruction on the

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earth. And then in the next chapter, seven, three, it says, do not harm the earth, see

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the trees. Um, and also there's like the sun and moon and stars losing their light. And

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then later they have light again. And it's like, you know, kind of this, it seemed like

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a repeated, um, course of events from different angles, maybe. And they, they get to the end

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three or four different times. What are your thoughts on that?

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So I see all those same things you're talking about, especially in revelation chapter six.

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Okay. And I can honestly say I don't have a firm position on his revelation chapter

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six, like a precursor to the tribulation where the antichrist begins kind of his political

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career until, you know, I don't know, because you're right. A lot of that stuff is repeated

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later on in the pan. And so must it, a lot of the best thinking I see is a lot of these

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are parallel counts of the same thing with more detail. And then it's got the pauses

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where an angel stops to kind of give the angels interpretation of what's going on, you know?

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Uh, so, you know, I can't honestly say that it's, I feel comfortable taking a firm position

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on that. I've still got a lot of questions myself. And I, that's why I remain open. I

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think it's always best to be humble and I think you've got it all figured out and God

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can clear this up for me maybe, you know, in the coming years.

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Yeah. No, I appreciate that answer because, yeah, I just hadn't heard, I hadn't heard

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that answer before. Usually it's, you know, a couple of times that I've asked somebody

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about this, it's, are you starting to symbolize or, you know, symbolize the way the Bible

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and, you know, just take it for what it says. And I'm like, well, you know, it's apocalyptic

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literature. That's another thing. The genre that I'm like, I don't know how to read this

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genre in ancient apocalypse. So, uh, yeah, I, I'm still wrestling through the possibility

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that, you know, Revelation six does describe the end. And then there's another review of

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everything else. It ends in 11 and then it ends in 19. And then that's why I'm left with

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Revelation 20 possibly not being a continuation sequentially of 19. Does that make sense?

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Yeah. Yeah. And that's, uh, that's fair. Um, I do think revelation is telling a story.

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I do think we are capable of understanding it. I do think there's a rhyme or reason to

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it. So I don't think it's just a bunch of random things mashed together that, you know,

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so I, so, so I do think that you do see at the end of the book, a process, the final

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destruction of evil, harlot Babylon, those political and economic systems, Jesus destroys

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them. He inaugurates his kingdom where Satan is bound, which clearly he is not right now.

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So to me, it's absolute nonsense to think that we're living in some millennium right

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now. Uh, and the process is leading to God living on the earth with us. So that's why

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I see, especially in revelation 17, 18, 19, a winding up of things and a sequential goal

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or plan of God that God wants us to be aware of, you know, all of the events that go on

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that are going to bring that climax to its head are going to be, I believe they'll get

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more clear the closer to that timeframe we come. Uh, can I, uh, can I offer one of the

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things that made me at least got me thinking, cause you said, you just said, uh, we're not

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in a millennium right now because Satan's not bound, uh, at least not to deceive the

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nations. Um, one of the things that got me thinking that I have to, I wanted to entertain

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the possibility of us being in the millennium with Satan bound is verse seven and eight

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of revolution 20, that when he is released from this binding, he comes out to deceive

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the nations to make war against the people of God. Right. And, uh, that at least for

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me, I could, I could, Satan is still prowling around doing his thing, but he can't, at least

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right now, gather all the nations to make war against the church right now. That's what

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he's restricted from doing. And if that is what he's bound, um, with respect to in revelation

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20, then I could kind of see, okay, maybe, you know, Christ is ruling in the heavens.

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He's not really on earth. And then, you know, verse 40 talks about seeing thrones and, uh,

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seeing the faithful ones who, you know, are given authority to judge sitting on the thrones

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too. And it's like, well, maybe it's not a literal earthly throne. Maybe it's in heaven

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and he's reigning in heaven with the saints and, uh, at his return, you know, I don't

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know if that, if that makes any sense, but it at least got me thinking too, we could

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be in the millennium. It just might not look like what I thought it did. Okay. I've got

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a minute and 20 seconds. Okay. You do that question. Well, so just look, uh, the plans

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and purposes of God from the book of Genesis to the book of revelation are for the earth.

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Okay. That's number one. God's plan from the beginning is to rule the earth, uh, with his

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family participating with them. So the idea of Jesus ruling spiritually from heaven, um,

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is it consistent with what the entire testimony of scripture is about to me. Okay. Now, so

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the other point I'd like to make, and I'm sympathetic towards your view, by the way,

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I've mold that over in my head as well, but the interpretation that you gave of Satan

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being bound from waging war on the nations, I think probably if you lived in the middle

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east in an Islamic country right now, you wouldn't feel the way that you do about, uh,

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that binding. Yeah. Yeah. I could see that. You know, or even in parts of China for that

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matter, you know, but yeah. So, so Satan to me is very clearly very active and it is very

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dangerous to be a Christian.