All right, Debbie Cooper.
So you came into my office last week because I said some things in the sermon that kind
of made your mind go tilt a little bit.
And we were having this conversation, you were asking amazing questions and making amazing
comments and I was thinking 90% of the congregation has the same questions that you have, but
they're not willing, they don't have the gumption to come in here and ask me.
And so I was like, we need to record this.
And so I kind of cut the conversation short because I had another meeting, but it was
like, we need to follow this conversation through to the end, get it on record so that
we can share it with not just the church, but you know, whoever else stumbles upon the
foundrypress.org.
Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Now, did you recently retire?
Did I understand?
I did.
In fact, June 30th is my last official day.
I've worked for the schools 40 years.
And lived in Hobbs, but I wasn't born in Hobbs, but we moved here when I was four or five
and lived here ever since, except for a couple of stints, college, marriage, a little while
in other places.
So what did you do in the schools?
I was a teacher for about a third of that time, an administrator for probably another
third at principal administrator.
And then I was at central office working over instruction.
All right.
Well, that explains why you asked such good questions.
You're a teacher.
So that's kind of your thing.
It's probably not how my family would describe that, but yes, thank you.
Well, I am going to turn it over to you and kind of let you lead us through the conversation.
Ask the questions that you want to ask and we'll just see where the road takes us.
Okay.
All right.
Well, this was the sermon from two Sundays ago.
And one of the first things that I wrote down, because at the end you said, if you have a
question, ask me.
I love it.
These are my favorite conversations to have.
Good.
The first thing that struck me, I think, was when you said that we will remain on this
planet.
I had not heard that.
That was not how I thought about after Jesus returned.
I've done revelation studies and I haven't taught one, but I've attended and read revelations.
I can't tell you I know much more having read it.
I could probably read it a hundred times.
It is an extremely complicated book.
Yes.
Really the entire Bible is, but that book especially.
That book especially.
So I guess that's my first question because I did not...
That's not how I envisioned what would be the hereafter.
So I suspect, this is just my hunch, that most of the things we absorb about the next
life we absorb in preschool, elementary, and it's kind of fairy tale types of Christianity
that we think a little kid can understand.
But as adults, we don't really talk about it much beyond that.
I think one of the reasons we don't talk about it very much or think about it very deeply
is because everything that we hear does not ring true.
And so we don't think about it at all.
We just kind of function off of these kindergarten, preschool, elementary ideas that aren't really
based in the message of scripture.
So I took you back to the concept of the resurrection from the dead.
Jesus was bodily raised from the dead.
And I pointed out, when Jesus chose to become a man, Philippians chapter two, he humbled
himself taking up upon the form of a man.
That is the radical thing about that decision is Jesus is going to be a man, incarnate man
forever.
So Jesus was raised from the dead in the same body that he lived in.
The tomb is empty.
And so there wasn't the old body laying in the tomb.
And then God created a brand new body for him.
God resurrected the same body.
He had the same scars, right?
People were able to recognize him.
So Jesus is going to live in that body forever.
And then we have the other fundamental tenet of Christianity.
This is basic Christianity, the return of Jesus Christ, the second coming of Jesus Christ.
He's coming from heaven to the earth.
He's not coming from heaven to the earth to whisk us back to heaven.
He's coming back to the earth to resurrect us from the dead with him.
And he's returning to the earth to stay.
And so while the Bible promises a new heaven and a new earth, it's going to be the same
earth.
You and I are going to get a new body at the resurrection from the dead, but it's going
to be the same body.
It's kind of hard.
We don't fully understand all of these things, right?
And so same way with the earth.
God is going to create a new heavens and a new earth, but it will be the same earth.
And so we're going to live in new bodies, resurrected bodies on this earth forever.
So that's the plan in Genesis chapter one, God created the physical universe.
He created Adam and Eve to live on this planet forever.
That was their, the original intent was for them to live forever, right?
Right.
And so an omnipotent and an omniscient God and all knowing and all powerful God does
not require a plan B. There's only plan A, plan A is going to work.
And so Genesis chapter one, human beings were created to have dominion over the earth.
And so that same concept is repeated throughout scripture.
The Abrahamic covenant, it's repeated.
And then in revelation chapter five, at the, as the story winds up, resurrected believers
will rain on the earth.
And I'll have the scripture reference.
I'll edit that in later, but we will rain.
We're destined to rain on the earth forever.
Okay.
So a couple of things that that brings to mind, I guess, and maybe that's, and I, and
I don't know that I can give you the address, but that we will meet him in the sky.
We will join him in the sky.
Yep.
And I guess from there, I think we're not going to stay here.
I mean, that's what I take from that.
That's right.
Uh, so you're talking about the rapture of the church.
Yes.
And that's taught explicitly.
I can't remember whether it's first or second Thessalonians.
I'll edit that in.
Uh, there's a very good video on that by a guy named Dr. Ben Witherington.
He's a professor at Asbury seminary, world, world renowned New Testament scholar.
I will put that in the link of the description.
So you can see him teaching about the rapture.
What he'll, he'll basically teach is that that word, that concept is based upon a practice
in the Roman empire.
Whenever a distinguished delegate from the Roman government would go to visit a city,
like a Senator or something like that, in order to honor the Senator, the city would
send out a delegation to meet the Senator, not so they could go someplace else, but they
would just escort him back into the city.
Okay.
As he was approaching.
And so, so the, the rapture of the church is going to function to do two things.
It's going to function to, so that we can escort Jesus as he, and he's returning in
the context of a war, the war of Armageddon.
He's coming to defeat the forces of anti-Christ and to rescue the Jewish people.
And so Jesus is returning and he will have a delegation to escort him as he approaches
that city, but he is also identifying his leadership structure.
These are mine.
They're with me.
And so it's functioning to do both of those things, but we will escort him as he comes
to rescue the city of Jerusalem, the Jewish people, and to establish a global government.
Okay.
So knowing this new information, new information to me, I know you said it was basic, but it's
new information to me.
How will that change me as a Christian?
What is the, why do I need to know that?
Okay.
Most people don't think about the afterlife or the next age because they don't think about
it correctly.
And that is very important.
We both know so many believers who are not engaged in training in godliness.
They're not connected to the church because, well, I can worship God just as good up in
the mountains as I can in church, or I can worship God out in nature just as well as,
they think that I'm saved.
I know I'm going to heaven and that's all I need to know.
And I'll just got to wait for that to happen.
And it's all going to be rainbows and unicorns and skittles, unlimited skittles.
I mean, this is most people's concept of heaven, right?
Yes.
I'm just going to be singing worship songs for all eternity.
I'm like, probably after about, you know, nine days of doing that, I'm going to think
maybe I'd like to do something else.
I mean, I don't know about you, you know, but, uh, so the reason we need to think about
this is because we are given 80 to a hundred years on this earth to develop the mind and
the heart and the character of someone who can inherit power to govern.
So the primary problem with this planet, this is why people get so caught up in politics.
Politics is really important because that's going to have a major determining factor over
how life goes for you and me.
Okay.
This is why people at a primal level know how important like elections are.
Okay.
So politics is functioning like a religion for people nowadays.
You know, uh, it is really important and really the, at the end of the day, the, the Bible
is a political document.
The gospel of the kingdom is a political message.
It answers the question who has the right to rule.
So what we are doing as the church, we are to be in strict training in godliness.
So that we can become people who can inherit power unto that.
We exercise it not to benefit ourselves, which is what all politicians do nowadays.
We will use our power to benefit other people.
This is what Jesus means when he's teaching us in the sermon on the mount.
The sermon on the mount is the gospel of the kingdom.
It says in Matthew chapter four, Jesus went throughout the towns of Galilee, preaching
the gospel of the kingdom.
And then Matthew chapter five through seven records what that gospel is.
It's the sermon on the mount.
And so in the sermon on the mount, Jesus says, blessed are the meek.
You know what it says?
The rest for they will inherit the kingdom of God.
They will inherit the earth.
Oh, the earth.
Okay.
Yeah.
So Jesus meant that literally who are the meek?
You know, I, my last name is meek.
And so it always frustrated me when people just assumed that meant I was shy or I was
meek and mild.
That's not what that word means.
That word means it's like someone who has a sword at their side, but they only pull
that sword to defend other people.
They use it to protect others.
It's not a weapon of violence to conquer.
It's to protect the weak and the vulnerable.
And so meekness is about using your strength and your power to benefit others, not just
yourself.
And so blessed are the meek people who have this character are going to be handed power
because I know I can trust you to make life better for other people.
Now wouldn't it be nice if we could vote for somebody like that?
Yes.
I mean, no, we're never going to get a chance to elect somebody like that.
But when Jesus returns, those are the people that will get power and they will have power
and they will be the type of people I'm glad they have power.
I am blessed.
I celebrate them having power because I know that's going to benefit me at the end of the
day.
So we're in training holiness, Christian perfection, the message of Christian perfection,
which is our birthright as Methodists is about developing the character of Jesus so that
we can inherit power and we can be trusted to use it for God's kingdom, plans and purposes.
Now that goes back to the question that type of character requires a lifetime of strict
training.
The Bible says in the Sermon on the Mount, if you do these things and teach others to
do the same, you will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
If you're a lazy, lukewarm, halfhearted Christian, that's just waiting for, you know, your Disney
world trip to the sky, the Bible says if you don't do these things and teach others to
do the same by your example, primarily, you will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.
So you're not going to suffer eternal hellfire and damnation, but you will suffer loss.
It says explicitly in first Corinthians chapter three, everyone's works will be tested.
If your works are burned up, you'll be saved as one barely escaping the flames and you
will suffer loss.
So this is why believers need to be aware that the type of American Christianity that
we practice is not going to cut it.
Right.
I think, and again, that's something else new from your sermon that, I mean, maybe it's
just me, but I think as long as I'm in heaven and not in hell, then I'm in the better place.
And of course, we all-
And that's not wrong, right?
Right.
That's not wrong.
But thinking about it, it's a different way to think about it though when you say, because
I don't, I know the verse says, least, you'll be least in the kingdom, because you read
that with the ten virgins, but I don't think I ever worried about what being least in the
kingdom would mean.
Right.
You're in the kingdom.
Right.
So why would I worry about the least?
I think my motivation to share what I know or feel like I know about Jesus has been,
I want you to be in the kingdom with me, but not about how I would serve there or what
reward or loss I would have.
Right.
So it's a mind shift that I struggle with.
I'll just tell you, I struggle with that.
I know.
And I've seen that so many times, so many different churches where I've served and we've
gotten into this content.
This is a very common story.
And one of the things that motivates me, whenever I started learning about this, my mind went
tilt as well.
And I went through a process of cognitive dissonance.
But then once I came out on the other side and it's like, the Bible teaches this everywhere.
Why didn't anybody tell me about this?
This was, I was mad.
You know?
Yes.
And you should be mad because we should have been instructed more thoroughly than what
we have been, just to be honest with you.
So that's one of the things that motivates me.
I want the body of Christ to be equipped with this message.
It's the gospel of the kingdom.
And really as Methodists, this is our bread and butter.
John Wesley said, the reason God raised up the people called Methodists was to preach
the message of Christian perfection or entire sanctification.
Now he didn't, you won't even find Wesley articulating these concepts as fully as we
are.
He was aware of them.
He knew about it.
It just wasn't a major topic that he taught about.
And so where I feel like maybe we can develop this idea further is why is the message of
Christian perfection so important as Methodists?
Well, this is the reason.
God wants us to be holy, not just so that we're good little boys and girls.
God wants us to be holy so that he can hand us power in the next stage and we can be trusted
with it.
So a training, we're in training for the next life to come.
So Christian perfection, what does that look like?
Because the word perfection seems like an unattainable adjective.
Absolutely.
Yep.
Christian perfection.
So full sanctification, holiness, loving God with all of my heart, mind and strength, which
is the first commandment and Christian perfection all mean the same thing.
It's the exact same thing.
Loving God with all of your heart, mind and strength and being fully sanctified.
That is what being fully sanctified is.
So the word for perfection, we see translated in the New Testament.
It is kind of a bad translation based upon how we understand perfection, that word in
the English language, because what it means is fully mature.
It means a finished product.
So I'm a full grown Christian, in other words.
Now our understanding of fully mature means sin no longer has power over me.
I have power over sin.
And so I now have the maturity to be able to discern right from wrong and fully obey
God all the time.
So fully obey God all the time means I don't mess up.
I don't make a mistake.
I don't.
Wesley would distinguish making a mistake from willfully disobeying God.
So a person can make a mistake, but you know, that's not the same as being disobedient.
And now also, just to be fair, Wesley said most people will not arrive at full maturity
until at or near the point of death.
So that's why God gives us so much time on the earth.
This project requires a lot of hard work and dedication.
And the level of Christianity we're practicing in America right now is not anywhere near
what it needs to be.
I mean, you look at the early church, it says daily they gathered to break bread, to listen
to the apostles teaching and to fellowship and to pray.
Right?
And most Christians nowadays are really attending church once a month.
I mean, I'm sorry, one hour, one time a month.
And you think that's going to get you there, you know.
And we just have to break that deception off of people's minds and hearts.
Okay.
So on the parable of the virgins then, there were the five who had the reserve oil and
the five who didn't.
And they weren't ready and they weren't prepared.
But they, I take it they thought they were.
Oh, absolutely.
So what does it mean to be prepared for what does that look like for Jesus' return?
And you know, you look at that parable, they're all described as virgins.
They all have lamps.
So they're all, they've all got tools to spread the message of Jesus Christ to the world around
them.
All of the lamps have oil in them.
They're all burning.
Right?
So the ones described as foolish were the ones who put their priorities in the wrong
place.
Okay.
They had their focus in the wrong place.
And so in the American church, the leadership of the church is always focused on how many
people are in the seats, how much money is in the budget, whether or not their pastor
is popular in the community or not, you know, these types of things.
Is your pastor trying to win popularity contests that time?
Trying to get other Christians from other churches to come to their church.
I mean, right?
Yeah.
This is the American church.
And so these are the foolish virgins, the ones who are really focused on their lamp,
making sure they got the coolest lamp in the room.
You know, they trimmed their lamps and really what God says, we need to be concerned about
developing an inner life in God, being filled with the Holy Spirit, becoming mature in our
inner man.
And so Wesley gave us three primary means by which we do this.
They're called the primary means of grace in the Methodist church.
They're derived from Acts chapter two, the early church devoted themselves to the apostles
teaching.
And so we need to focus if we're going to be wise virgins and have stores of oil, we
need to focus in growing in our understanding of the word of God.
Okay.
Not Methodist theology, not the catechisms of the church.
We need to be focused on growing in our understanding in the pure word of God.
We need to be, they gathered together for the apostles teaching for the breaking of
bread, which we, uh, Wesley believed was referring to communion.
Okay.
So we're gathering together for the purpose of worship and receiving the sacraments, uh,
to the breaking of bread, to fellowship and to prayer.
So we're gathering in worship regularly and we're engaging in prayer.
We're training our minds and hearts to focus on the presence of God, the Holy Spirit.
And the Bible says God was working wonders among them and they were in awe at what God
was doing.
When we focus our minds and hearts on the uncreated God and he begins manifesting himself
among us, there is nothing more fascinating or pleasure bringing to the human being than
the uncreated manifest glory of God.
It's awesome.
And so these are the things the church needs to be.
I would rather be doing that with five people than have a thousand people and be the coolest
church in town.
You understand?
Yes, I think that's what the wise virgins are focused on.
Their pleasure and joy isn't in being winning popularity contests and having status in the
community and having everyone's attention on them.
It is on a connection with the uncreated God and having him manifest in their daily lives.
So if I would have to categorize myself, um, I would be in the five that didn't have the
extra oil.
So how do you go from there to having the extra oil?
Yep.
Great question.
Every step forward we take in our faith starts with a decision.
And so, you know, God describes the valley of decision in the book of Joel, millions
upon millions in the valley of decision.
We have to make a decision.
Then we have to just follow the instructions of scripture, uh, have faith in God.
I tell you the truth.
If anyone should say to this mountain, go and cast yourself into the sea and does not
doubt in his heart, believes what he says will happen.
It shall be done for him.
Therefore, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it and it shall
be yours.
You know, Jesus says, ask and keep asking, knock and keep knocking.
So we have to make the decision to begin waiting on God in the means of grace.
I'm going to make a decision to start gathering with other believers more often.
I'm going to, I'm going to make a decision that I'm going to prioritize my life around
church and not the other way around.
It just has to become a decision to dedicate yourself to those three practices and the,
and the grace of God will grow in your life.
It's just, there's no doubt about it.
If we're patient, if we're consistent and if we're persistent, the grace of God will
grow in our life.
There's just no doubt about it.
Okay.
And there's no other way.
There's no shortcut.
Yeah.
Now, sometimes God will move in powerful ways and you know, and, but usually that's temporary,
like a kid coming back from church camp, right?
God really moved.
My life has changed.
Three weeks later, it's back to normal.
Okay.
And that's reality because there's no shortcut.
We have to make a decision to be patient and persistent and dedicated in these three primary
means of grace over the course of time in order for the work to really produce the fruit
it's intended to produce.
Okay.
And that's what your sermon series is about because I know you're, you mentioned the three
again this Sunday.
I think you mentioned, have mentioned them every Sunday.
Every Sunday.
And so that's where you're going to lead us as a congregation.
Although we individually have to make the decision, you're going to help us see what
that looks like or should look like in our lives.
I can only paint the picture and you have to make the decision.
The church, you, the collective you, you have to make the decision.
And you know, that's the, I have to be patient as well because people don't change.
You know, most people don't just make snap changes.
They needed it.
They really need to deliberate about it, meditate on it and, and wait for God to work on their
will to produce the decision that they're really the quality decision that needs to
be made.
So we're going to be patient and we'll move on from this subject and cover different subjects
and then we'll come back to it.
You know, you're a teacher, so you know how this works.
Yeah.
You have to keep refreshing the memory.
So when I was driving over here, the Jericho, Jericho song, you know, walls of Jericho coming
down came on the radio and it's an older song.
So I hadn't heard it in a long time, but it, it made me think of this.
So it's like for me, anyway, I'll just speak about myself.
I just feel like I know what I'm comfortable with and you're asking me to get uncomfortable.
And I feel like I've got to start walking around that wall.
That's such a good analogy.
You know, they walked around the wall seven times, right?
And it probably took them a long time to walk around the wall and they're, they're worshiping
the whole time.
Yes.
Right?
Yes.
And so they're, they're calling on the presence of God because you know, it says in Philippians,
it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good pleasure.
So we have to wait on God to work on our will.
So we're going to be persistent in worshiping and praying, focusing our minds and hearts
on God, asking him to move upon my will so that I can act according to his good pleasure.
Right?
Right.
And so what we need to do, we need to enjoy God in the process.
We're not here to make anyone feel guilty or ashamed.
Okay.
We want people to celebrate the amazing future that God has planned that we get to play a
part in.
And so we have to also trust if I've followed Jesus my whole life and I've never heard this,
well, listen, the grace of God has been at work around those blind spots doing what he
wants to produce in you the whole time.
Now if you get on board, you can accelerate and you can just assume I haven't lost anything.
You know?
Right.
So it's just important to really trust God to be patient and to remember this is fun.
Right?
This conversation is fun.
Yeah.
We get to do this.
I don't have to do this.
I get to do this.
And the more things click into place, the faster I can accelerate down the path.
You know?
And then really the ultimate goal is to get a church full of people who are an army capable
of instructing all the other Christians in the dark out there.
They all know that Jesus was raised from the dead.
Do you know anybody in Hobbes, New Mexico that doesn't know that?
No.
You know?
And people think that's the gospel.
That's not anywhere described as the gospel in the New Testament.
The only thing Jesus refers to as the gospel is the gospel of the kingdom.
And so the more we can get people not only prepared to comprehend this message, to participate
in it, but to communicate it to the world around them.
I said this in our last conversation, Matthew chapter 24.
I believe the time is running short.
And Jesus says in Matthew 24, this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the
world and then the end will come.
I believe this is the mission because the gospel has been preached in all the world,
but the gospel of the kingdom has not.
And so I believe this is going to be the agenda in the coming season of the church to equip
the body of Christ with this message, not only so that they understand it, but so that
they can teach it to others.
So, I think that's good.
I think we needed to get that in there.
Okay, good.
All right.
I think we're good.
Thanks for coming in.
Well, you're welcome.
And I tell you what, I would encourage you to continue kind of thinking about things
that intrigue you.
Okay.
And let's do this again in the future whenever you feel like it's necessary.
Okay.
Or with you.
Yeah.
Because I take notes in every sermon.
I'm not going to say I have a question every time, but I do take notes.
So whenever you want to.
We could do this once a week.
And if it's just 15 minutes, if it's just 10 minutes, it's still going to be worth
sharing.
Okay.
So.
Okay.
Well, let's see how it goes.
All right.
You'll see what the finished product is.
Yeah, you may want.
Okay.
Thanks for coming in.
Thanks for having me.
We'll see you later.
you