1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,620 All right, Debbie Cooper. 2 00:00:04,620 --> 00:00:11,400 So you came into my office last week because I said some things in the sermon that kind 3 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:15,680 of made your mind go tilt a little bit. 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:21,160 And we were having this conversation, you were asking amazing questions and making amazing 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:28,960 comments and I was thinking 90% of the congregation has the same questions that you have, but 6 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:33,080 they're not willing, they don't have the gumption to come in here and ask me. 7 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:35,720 And so I was like, we need to record this. 8 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:40,040 And so I kind of cut the conversation short because I had another meeting, but it was 9 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:45,120 like, we need to follow this conversation through to the end, get it on record so that 10 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:51,800 we can share it with not just the church, but you know, whoever else stumbles upon the 11 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,800 foundrypress.org. 12 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:55,800 Tell us a little bit about yourself. 13 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:57,280 Now, did you recently retire? 14 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:58,280 Did I understand? 15 00:00:58,280 --> 00:00:59,280 I did. 16 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:03,600 In fact, June 30th is my last official day. 17 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,200 I've worked for the schools 40 years. 18 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:14,800 And lived in Hobbs, but I wasn't born in Hobbs, but we moved here when I was four or five 19 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:22,880 and lived here ever since, except for a couple of stints, college, marriage, a little while 20 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:23,880 in other places. 21 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:26,000 So what did you do in the schools? 22 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:32,880 I was a teacher for about a third of that time, an administrator for probably another 23 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,520 third at principal administrator. 24 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,880 And then I was at central office working over instruction. 25 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:41,880 All right. 26 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,120 Well, that explains why you asked such good questions. 27 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:45,120 You're a teacher. 28 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,240 So that's kind of your thing. 29 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:53,400 It's probably not how my family would describe that, but yes, thank you. 30 00:01:53,400 --> 00:02:01,640 Well, I am going to turn it over to you and kind of let you lead us through the conversation. 31 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:07,120 Ask the questions that you want to ask and we'll just see where the road takes us. 32 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:08,120 Okay. 33 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:09,120 All right. 34 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:13,480 Well, this was the sermon from two Sundays ago. 35 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:19,240 And one of the first things that I wrote down, because at the end you said, if you have a 36 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:20,240 question, ask me. 37 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:21,240 I love it. 38 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:25,200 These are my favorite conversations to have. 39 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:26,200 Good. 40 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:33,040 The first thing that struck me, I think, was when you said that we will remain on this 41 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,520 planet. 42 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,280 I had not heard that. 43 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:46,000 That was not how I thought about after Jesus returned. 44 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:54,000 I've done revelation studies and I haven't taught one, but I've attended and read revelations. 45 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,480 I can't tell you I know much more having read it. 46 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:57,480 I could probably read it a hundred times. 47 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,240 It is an extremely complicated book. 48 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:01,240 Yes. 49 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,280 Really the entire Bible is, but that book especially. 50 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:05,720 That book especially. 51 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:12,940 So I guess that's my first question because I did not... 52 00:03:12,940 --> 00:03:18,160 That's not how I envisioned what would be the hereafter. 53 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:25,480 So I suspect, this is just my hunch, that most of the things we absorb about the next 54 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:34,440 life we absorb in preschool, elementary, and it's kind of fairy tale types of Christianity 55 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:36,840 that we think a little kid can understand. 56 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,960 But as adults, we don't really talk about it much beyond that. 57 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,520 I think one of the reasons we don't talk about it very much or think about it very deeply 58 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:48,560 is because everything that we hear does not ring true. 59 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,600 And so we don't think about it at all. 60 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:57,560 We just kind of function off of these kindergarten, preschool, elementary ideas that aren't really 61 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:02,440 based in the message of scripture. 62 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:08,800 So I took you back to the concept of the resurrection from the dead. 63 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:11,440 Jesus was bodily raised from the dead. 64 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:18,880 And I pointed out, when Jesus chose to become a man, Philippians chapter two, he humbled 65 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:23,160 himself taking up upon the form of a man. 66 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:28,600 That is the radical thing about that decision is Jesus is going to be a man, incarnate man 67 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,160 forever. 68 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,680 So Jesus was raised from the dead in the same body that he lived in. 69 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,420 The tomb is empty. 70 00:04:38,420 --> 00:04:41,160 And so there wasn't the old body laying in the tomb. 71 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,600 And then God created a brand new body for him. 72 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:45,780 God resurrected the same body. 73 00:04:45,780 --> 00:04:48,540 He had the same scars, right? 74 00:04:48,540 --> 00:04:50,280 People were able to recognize him. 75 00:04:50,280 --> 00:04:54,880 So Jesus is going to live in that body forever. 76 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,160 And then we have the other fundamental tenet of Christianity. 77 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:03,580 This is basic Christianity, the return of Jesus Christ, the second coming of Jesus Christ. 78 00:05:03,580 --> 00:05:08,080 He's coming from heaven to the earth. 79 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,920 He's not coming from heaven to the earth to whisk us back to heaven. 80 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,720 He's coming back to the earth to resurrect us from the dead with him. 81 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,280 And he's returning to the earth to stay. 82 00:05:19,280 --> 00:05:23,920 And so while the Bible promises a new heaven and a new earth, it's going to be the same 83 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:24,920 earth. 84 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,120 You and I are going to get a new body at the resurrection from the dead, but it's going 85 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,080 to be the same body. 86 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:31,340 It's kind of hard. 87 00:05:31,340 --> 00:05:35,160 We don't fully understand all of these things, right? 88 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:36,880 And so same way with the earth. 89 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:41,560 God is going to create a new heavens and a new earth, but it will be the same earth. 90 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:47,120 And so we're going to live in new bodies, resurrected bodies on this earth forever. 91 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:51,460 So that's the plan in Genesis chapter one, God created the physical universe. 92 00:05:51,460 --> 00:05:57,120 He created Adam and Eve to live on this planet forever. 93 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:01,320 That was their, the original intent was for them to live forever, right? 94 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:02,560 Right. 95 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:08,700 And so an omnipotent and an omniscient God and all knowing and all powerful God does 96 00:06:08,700 --> 00:06:14,360 not require a plan B. There's only plan A, plan A is going to work. 97 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:20,840 And so Genesis chapter one, human beings were created to have dominion over the earth. 98 00:06:20,840 --> 00:06:23,680 And so that same concept is repeated throughout scripture. 99 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,200 The Abrahamic covenant, it's repeated. 100 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:31,760 And then in revelation chapter five, at the, as the story winds up, resurrected believers 101 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,240 will rain on the earth. 102 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:35,360 And I'll have the scripture reference. 103 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:39,280 I'll edit that in later, but we will rain. 104 00:06:39,280 --> 00:06:42,080 We're destined to rain on the earth forever. 105 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:43,080 Okay. 106 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:49,960 So a couple of things that that brings to mind, I guess, and maybe that's, and I, and 107 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:55,600 I don't know that I can give you the address, but that we will meet him in the sky. 108 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:57,560 We will join him in the sky. 109 00:06:57,560 --> 00:06:58,560 Yep. 110 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,520 And I guess from there, I think we're not going to stay here. 111 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:04,280 I mean, that's what I take from that. 112 00:07:04,280 --> 00:07:05,280 That's right. 113 00:07:05,280 --> 00:07:08,480 Uh, so you're talking about the rapture of the church. 114 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:09,480 Yes. 115 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,360 And that's taught explicitly. 116 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,080 I can't remember whether it's first or second Thessalonians. 117 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:15,080 I'll edit that in. 118 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:20,800 Uh, there's a very good video on that by a guy named Dr. Ben Witherington. 119 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,800 He's a professor at Asbury seminary, world, world renowned New Testament scholar. 120 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,520 I will put that in the link of the description. 121 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:29,920 So you can see him teaching about the rapture. 122 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:36,640 What he'll, he'll basically teach is that that word, that concept is based upon a practice 123 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,240 in the Roman empire. 124 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:44,400 Whenever a distinguished delegate from the Roman government would go to visit a city, 125 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:48,640 like a Senator or something like that, in order to honor the Senator, the city would 126 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:53,800 send out a delegation to meet the Senator, not so they could go someplace else, but they 127 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,240 would just escort him back into the city. 128 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:58,240 Okay. 129 00:07:58,240 --> 00:07:59,240 As he was approaching. 130 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,560 And so, so the, the rapture of the church is going to function to do two things. 131 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:09,280 It's going to function to, so that we can escort Jesus as he, and he's returning in 132 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,280 the context of a war, the war of Armageddon. 133 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:18,880 He's coming to defeat the forces of anti-Christ and to rescue the Jewish people. 134 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:25,500 And so Jesus is returning and he will have a delegation to escort him as he approaches 135 00:08:25,500 --> 00:08:31,560 that city, but he is also identifying his leadership structure. 136 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:32,560 These are mine. 137 00:08:32,560 --> 00:08:34,200 They're with me. 138 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:41,960 And so it's functioning to do both of those things, but we will escort him as he comes 139 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:49,440 to rescue the city of Jerusalem, the Jewish people, and to establish a global government. 140 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:50,440 Okay. 141 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:58,840 So knowing this new information, new information to me, I know you said it was basic, but it's 142 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,040 new information to me. 143 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:09,040 How will that change me as a Christian? 144 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:13,840 What is the, why do I need to know that? 145 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,620 Okay. 146 00:09:16,620 --> 00:09:22,080 Most people don't think about the afterlife or the next age because they don't think about 147 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:23,760 it correctly. 148 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,840 And that is very important. 149 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:33,680 We both know so many believers who are not engaged in training in godliness. 150 00:09:33,680 --> 00:09:40,200 They're not connected to the church because, well, I can worship God just as good up in 151 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:46,880 the mountains as I can in church, or I can worship God out in nature just as well as, 152 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,180 they think that I'm saved. 153 00:09:49,180 --> 00:09:53,520 I know I'm going to heaven and that's all I need to know. 154 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:55,360 And I'll just got to wait for that to happen. 155 00:09:55,360 --> 00:10:04,800 And it's all going to be rainbows and unicorns and skittles, unlimited skittles. 156 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,960 I mean, this is most people's concept of heaven, right? 157 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:08,960 Yes. 158 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,880 I'm just going to be singing worship songs for all eternity. 159 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:18,720 I'm like, probably after about, you know, nine days of doing that, I'm going to think 160 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:20,440 maybe I'd like to do something else. 161 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:27,840 I mean, I don't know about you, you know, but, uh, so the reason we need to think about 162 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:35,480 this is because we are given 80 to a hundred years on this earth to develop the mind and 163 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:43,160 the heart and the character of someone who can inherit power to govern. 164 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:47,880 So the primary problem with this planet, this is why people get so caught up in politics. 165 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:52,880 Politics is really important because that's going to have a major determining factor over 166 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:54,760 how life goes for you and me. 167 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:55,760 Okay. 168 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:01,040 This is why people at a primal level know how important like elections are. 169 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:02,040 Okay. 170 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:06,080 So politics is functioning like a religion for people nowadays. 171 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:11,680 You know, uh, it is really important and really the, at the end of the day, the, the Bible 172 00:11:11,680 --> 00:11:14,520 is a political document. 173 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,200 The gospel of the kingdom is a political message. 174 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,880 It answers the question who has the right to rule. 175 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:31,940 So what we are doing as the church, we are to be in strict training in godliness. 176 00:11:31,940 --> 00:11:36,480 So that we can become people who can inherit power unto that. 177 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:42,920 We exercise it not to benefit ourselves, which is what all politicians do nowadays. 178 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,320 We will use our power to benefit other people. 179 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,280 This is what Jesus means when he's teaching us in the sermon on the mount. 180 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:53,040 The sermon on the mount is the gospel of the kingdom. 181 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,040 It says in Matthew chapter four, Jesus went throughout the towns of Galilee, preaching 182 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:58,820 the gospel of the kingdom. 183 00:11:58,820 --> 00:12:02,560 And then Matthew chapter five through seven records what that gospel is. 184 00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:04,360 It's the sermon on the mount. 185 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:10,320 And so in the sermon on the mount, Jesus says, blessed are the meek. 186 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:11,320 You know what it says? 187 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,880 The rest for they will inherit the kingdom of God. 188 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:15,400 They will inherit the earth. 189 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:17,400 Oh, the earth. 190 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:18,400 Okay. 191 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:19,400 Yeah. 192 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:24,440 So Jesus meant that literally who are the meek? 193 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:26,880 You know, I, my last name is meek. 194 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:31,440 And so it always frustrated me when people just assumed that meant I was shy or I was 195 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:32,440 meek and mild. 196 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,740 That's not what that word means. 197 00:12:34,740 --> 00:12:39,920 That word means it's like someone who has a sword at their side, but they only pull 198 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,480 that sword to defend other people. 199 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,920 They use it to protect others. 200 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:50,420 It's not a weapon of violence to conquer. 201 00:12:50,420 --> 00:12:53,120 It's to protect the weak and the vulnerable. 202 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:58,320 And so meekness is about using your strength and your power to benefit others, not just 203 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:00,240 yourself. 204 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:05,200 And so blessed are the meek people who have this character are going to be handed power 205 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,840 because I know I can trust you to make life better for other people. 206 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:12,360 Now wouldn't it be nice if we could vote for somebody like that? 207 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:13,360 Yes. 208 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,880 I mean, no, we're never going to get a chance to elect somebody like that. 209 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:21,720 But when Jesus returns, those are the people that will get power and they will have power 210 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:25,040 and they will be the type of people I'm glad they have power. 211 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:26,640 I am blessed. 212 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:31,240 I celebrate them having power because I know that's going to benefit me at the end of the 213 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:32,240 day. 214 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:37,600 So we're in training holiness, Christian perfection, the message of Christian perfection, 215 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:42,720 which is our birthright as Methodists is about developing the character of Jesus so that 216 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:50,840 we can inherit power and we can be trusted to use it for God's kingdom, plans and purposes. 217 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:58,160 Now that goes back to the question that type of character requires a lifetime of strict 218 00:13:58,160 --> 00:13:59,360 training. 219 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:03,560 The Bible says in the Sermon on the Mount, if you do these things and teach others to 220 00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:08,020 do the same, you will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 221 00:14:08,020 --> 00:14:13,960 If you're a lazy, lukewarm, halfhearted Christian, that's just waiting for, you know, your Disney 222 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:23,160 world trip to the sky, the Bible says if you don't do these things and teach others to 223 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:32,320 do the same by your example, primarily, you will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. 224 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:38,240 So you're not going to suffer eternal hellfire and damnation, but you will suffer loss. 225 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:42,320 It says explicitly in first Corinthians chapter three, everyone's works will be tested. 226 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:48,840 If your works are burned up, you'll be saved as one barely escaping the flames and you 227 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,800 will suffer loss. 228 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:57,600 So this is why believers need to be aware that the type of American Christianity that 229 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,520 we practice is not going to cut it. 230 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:01,520 Right. 231 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:11,960 I think, and again, that's something else new from your sermon that, I mean, maybe it's 232 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:22,600 just me, but I think as long as I'm in heaven and not in hell, then I'm in the better place. 233 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:23,600 And of course, we all- 234 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:24,840 And that's not wrong, right? 235 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:25,840 Right. 236 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:27,800 That's not wrong. 237 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:33,640 But thinking about it, it's a different way to think about it though when you say, because 238 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:41,240 I don't, I know the verse says, least, you'll be least in the kingdom, because you read 239 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:48,560 that with the ten virgins, but I don't think I ever worried about what being least in the 240 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:49,720 kingdom would mean. 241 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:50,720 Right. 242 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:51,720 You're in the kingdom. 243 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:52,720 Right. 244 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,520 So why would I worry about the least? 245 00:15:55,520 --> 00:16:06,480 I think my motivation to share what I know or feel like I know about Jesus has been, 246 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:14,520 I want you to be in the kingdom with me, but not about how I would serve there or what 247 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:16,840 reward or loss I would have. 248 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:17,840 Right. 249 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:24,800 So it's a mind shift that I struggle with. 250 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:26,880 I'll just tell you, I struggle with that. 251 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:27,880 I know. 252 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,680 And I've seen that so many times, so many different churches where I've served and we've 253 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:33,880 gotten into this content. 254 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:35,840 This is a very common story. 255 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:40,520 And one of the things that motivates me, whenever I started learning about this, my mind went 256 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:41,560 tilt as well. 257 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,800 And I went through a process of cognitive dissonance. 258 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:51,320 But then once I came out on the other side and it's like, the Bible teaches this everywhere. 259 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,440 Why didn't anybody tell me about this? 260 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,560 This was, I was mad. 261 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:56,560 You know? 262 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:57,560 Yes. 263 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:04,720 And you should be mad because we should have been instructed more thoroughly than what 264 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,760 we have been, just to be honest with you. 265 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:10,800 So that's one of the things that motivates me. 266 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:15,200 I want the body of Christ to be equipped with this message. 267 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,680 It's the gospel of the kingdom. 268 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:24,000 And really as Methodists, this is our bread and butter. 269 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:28,800 John Wesley said, the reason God raised up the people called Methodists was to preach 270 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:33,680 the message of Christian perfection or entire sanctification. 271 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:42,120 Now he didn't, you won't even find Wesley articulating these concepts as fully as we 272 00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:43,120 are. 273 00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:44,120 He was aware of them. 274 00:17:44,120 --> 00:17:45,120 He knew about it. 275 00:17:45,120 --> 00:17:47,960 It just wasn't a major topic that he taught about. 276 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:54,800 And so where I feel like maybe we can develop this idea further is why is the message of 277 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,960 Christian perfection so important as Methodists? 278 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,840 Well, this is the reason. 279 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:06,400 God wants us to be holy, not just so that we're good little boys and girls. 280 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:11,560 God wants us to be holy so that he can hand us power in the next stage and we can be trusted 281 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:12,560 with it. 282 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:20,360 So a training, we're in training for the next life to come. 283 00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:26,200 So Christian perfection, what does that look like? 284 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:32,000 Because the word perfection seems like an unattainable adjective. 285 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:33,000 Absolutely. 286 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:34,000 Yep. 287 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:35,000 Christian perfection. 288 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:44,280 So full sanctification, holiness, loving God with all of my heart, mind and strength, which 289 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:48,080 is the first commandment and Christian perfection all mean the same thing. 290 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:49,940 It's the exact same thing. 291 00:18:49,940 --> 00:18:55,520 Loving God with all of your heart, mind and strength and being fully sanctified. 292 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:57,320 That is what being fully sanctified is. 293 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:02,400 So the word for perfection, we see translated in the New Testament. 294 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:07,520 It is kind of a bad translation based upon how we understand perfection, that word in 295 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:11,840 the English language, because what it means is fully mature. 296 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,000 It means a finished product. 297 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,640 So I'm a full grown Christian, in other words. 298 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:27,000 Now our understanding of fully mature means sin no longer has power over me. 299 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,200 I have power over sin. 300 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:37,520 And so I now have the maturity to be able to discern right from wrong and fully obey 301 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:41,720 God all the time. 302 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:49,480 So fully obey God all the time means I don't mess up. 303 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,720 I don't make a mistake. 304 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:52,720 I don't. 305 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:59,200 Wesley would distinguish making a mistake from willfully disobeying God. 306 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:05,440 So a person can make a mistake, but you know, that's not the same as being disobedient. 307 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:15,080 And now also, just to be fair, Wesley said most people will not arrive at full maturity 308 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:19,600 until at or near the point of death. 309 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:24,080 So that's why God gives us so much time on the earth. 310 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,680 This project requires a lot of hard work and dedication. 311 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,720 And the level of Christianity we're practicing in America right now is not anywhere near 312 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:32,720 what it needs to be. 313 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:39,720 I mean, you look at the early church, it says daily they gathered to break bread, to listen 314 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:44,520 to the apostles teaching and to fellowship and to pray. 315 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:45,520 Right? 316 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,400 And most Christians nowadays are really attending church once a month. 317 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:54,760 I mean, I'm sorry, one hour, one time a month. 318 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,600 And you think that's going to get you there, you know. 319 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,280 And we just have to break that deception off of people's minds and hearts. 320 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:03,280 Okay. 321 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:14,080 So on the parable of the virgins then, there were the five who had the reserve oil and 322 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:15,920 the five who didn't. 323 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,400 And they weren't ready and they weren't prepared. 324 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,480 But they, I take it they thought they were. 325 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:23,880 Oh, absolutely. 326 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:33,960 So what does it mean to be prepared for what does that look like for Jesus' return? 327 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,120 And you know, you look at that parable, they're all described as virgins. 328 00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:38,660 They all have lamps. 329 00:21:38,660 --> 00:21:44,840 So they're all, they've all got tools to spread the message of Jesus Christ to the world around 330 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:45,840 them. 331 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,080 All of the lamps have oil in them. 332 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:49,080 They're all burning. 333 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:50,080 Right? 334 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:51,080 Right? 335 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,800 So the ones described as foolish were the ones who put their priorities in the wrong 336 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:55,800 place. 337 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:56,800 Okay. 338 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:58,680 They had their focus in the wrong place. 339 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:04,040 And so in the American church, the leadership of the church is always focused on how many 340 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:09,560 people are in the seats, how much money is in the budget, whether or not their pastor 341 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,760 is popular in the community or not, you know, these types of things. 342 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,400 Is your pastor trying to win popularity contests that time? 343 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,320 Trying to get other Christians from other churches to come to their church. 344 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:21,320 I mean, right? 345 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:22,320 Yeah. 346 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,240 This is the American church. 347 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:28,200 And so these are the foolish virgins, the ones who are really focused on their lamp, 348 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,800 making sure they got the coolest lamp in the room. 349 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:37,960 You know, they trimmed their lamps and really what God says, we need to be concerned about 350 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:46,320 developing an inner life in God, being filled with the Holy Spirit, becoming mature in our 351 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:47,700 inner man. 352 00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:50,960 And so Wesley gave us three primary means by which we do this. 353 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,160 They're called the primary means of grace in the Methodist church. 354 00:22:54,160 --> 00:23:00,160 They're derived from Acts chapter two, the early church devoted themselves to the apostles 355 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:01,160 teaching. 356 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:06,720 And so we need to focus if we're going to be wise virgins and have stores of oil, we 357 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,880 need to focus in growing in our understanding of the word of God. 358 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:11,880 Okay. 359 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:18,520 Not Methodist theology, not the catechisms of the church. 360 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:25,080 We need to be focused on growing in our understanding in the pure word of God. 361 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,200 We need to be, they gathered together for the apostles teaching for the breaking of 362 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:33,760 bread, which we, uh, Wesley believed was referring to communion. 363 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:34,760 Okay. 364 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:39,760 So we're gathering together for the purpose of worship and receiving the sacraments, uh, 365 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,440 to the breaking of bread, to fellowship and to prayer. 366 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,840 So we're gathering in worship regularly and we're engaging in prayer. 367 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:52,240 We're training our minds and hearts to focus on the presence of God, the Holy Spirit. 368 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,040 And the Bible says God was working wonders among them and they were in awe at what God 369 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:57,040 was doing. 370 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:02,360 When we focus our minds and hearts on the uncreated God and he begins manifesting himself 371 00:24:02,360 --> 00:24:10,520 among us, there is nothing more fascinating or pleasure bringing to the human being than 372 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,520 the uncreated manifest glory of God. 373 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,100 It's awesome. 374 00:24:15,100 --> 00:24:17,240 And so these are the things the church needs to be. 375 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:23,440 I would rather be doing that with five people than have a thousand people and be the coolest 376 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:24,440 church in town. 377 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:25,440 You understand? 378 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:30,600 Yes, I think that's what the wise virgins are focused on. 379 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:36,400 Their pleasure and joy isn't in being winning popularity contests and having status in the 380 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:40,280 community and having everyone's attention on them. 381 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:48,160 It is on a connection with the uncreated God and having him manifest in their daily lives. 382 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:57,280 So if I would have to categorize myself, um, I would be in the five that didn't have the 383 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:58,920 extra oil. 384 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:04,960 So how do you go from there to having the extra oil? 385 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:05,960 Yep. 386 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:07,780 Great question. 387 00:25:07,780 --> 00:25:14,080 Every step forward we take in our faith starts with a decision. 388 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:20,100 And so, you know, God describes the valley of decision in the book of Joel, millions 389 00:25:20,100 --> 00:25:22,760 upon millions in the valley of decision. 390 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,680 We have to make a decision. 391 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:31,480 Then we have to just follow the instructions of scripture, uh, have faith in God. 392 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:32,800 I tell you the truth. 393 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,840 If anyone should say to this mountain, go and cast yourself into the sea and does not 394 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,280 doubt in his heart, believes what he says will happen. 395 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:39,880 It shall be done for him. 396 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,440 Therefore, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it and it shall 397 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:44,440 be yours. 398 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,640 You know, Jesus says, ask and keep asking, knock and keep knocking. 399 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:55,420 So we have to make the decision to begin waiting on God in the means of grace. 400 00:25:55,420 --> 00:25:58,720 I'm going to make a decision to start gathering with other believers more often. 401 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:04,000 I'm going to, I'm going to make a decision that I'm going to prioritize my life around 402 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:09,640 church and not the other way around. 403 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:16,880 It just has to become a decision to dedicate yourself to those three practices and the, 404 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,480 and the grace of God will grow in your life. 405 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,040 It's just, there's no doubt about it. 406 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:28,200 If we're patient, if we're consistent and if we're persistent, the grace of God will 407 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,960 grow in our life. 408 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:32,840 There's just no doubt about it. 409 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:33,840 Okay. 410 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:35,800 And there's no other way. 411 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:36,800 There's no shortcut. 412 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:37,800 Yeah. 413 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:42,880 Now, sometimes God will move in powerful ways and you know, and, but usually that's temporary, 414 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,280 like a kid coming back from church camp, right? 415 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:47,280 God really moved. 416 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:48,840 My life has changed. 417 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,680 Three weeks later, it's back to normal. 418 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:51,680 Okay. 419 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,280 And that's reality because there's no shortcut. 420 00:26:54,280 --> 00:27:01,000 We have to make a decision to be patient and persistent and dedicated in these three primary 421 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:06,440 means of grace over the course of time in order for the work to really produce the fruit 422 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,720 it's intended to produce. 423 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:09,720 Okay. 424 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:18,000 And that's what your sermon series is about because I know you're, you mentioned the three 425 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,280 again this Sunday. 426 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,520 I think you mentioned, have mentioned them every Sunday. 427 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:22,520 Every Sunday. 428 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:28,800 And so that's where you're going to lead us as a congregation. 429 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:35,160 Although we individually have to make the decision, you're going to help us see what 430 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,280 that looks like or should look like in our lives. 431 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,720 I can only paint the picture and you have to make the decision. 432 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,720 The church, you, the collective you, you have to make the decision. 433 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:52,840 And you know, that's the, I have to be patient as well because people don't change. 434 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,440 You know, most people don't just make snap changes. 435 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:57,440 They needed it. 436 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:06,120 They really need to deliberate about it, meditate on it and, and wait for God to work on their 437 00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:12,120 will to produce the decision that they're really the quality decision that needs to 438 00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:13,120 be made. 439 00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:16,880 So we're going to be patient and we'll move on from this subject and cover different subjects 440 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:18,760 and then we'll come back to it. 441 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,160 You know, you're a teacher, so you know how this works. 442 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:22,160 Yeah. 443 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,720 You have to keep refreshing the memory. 444 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:32,480 So when I was driving over here, the Jericho, Jericho song, you know, walls of Jericho coming 445 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,480 down came on the radio and it's an older song. 446 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,600 So I hadn't heard it in a long time, but it, it made me think of this. 447 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:46,640 So it's like for me, anyway, I'll just speak about myself. 448 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:54,320 I just feel like I know what I'm comfortable with and you're asking me to get uncomfortable. 449 00:28:54,320 --> 00:29:00,240 And I feel like I've got to start walking around that wall. 450 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,160 That's such a good analogy. 451 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,760 You know, they walked around the wall seven times, right? 452 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,760 And it probably took them a long time to walk around the wall and they're, they're worshiping 453 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:10,760 the whole time. 454 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:11,760 Yes. 455 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:12,760 Right? 456 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:13,760 Yes. 457 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,960 And so they're, they're calling on the presence of God because you know, it says in Philippians, 458 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:29,280 it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good pleasure. 459 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,960 So we have to wait on God to work on our will. 460 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:37,800 So we're going to be persistent in worshiping and praying, focusing our minds and hearts 461 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:45,280 on God, asking him to move upon my will so that I can act according to his good pleasure. 462 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:46,280 Right? 463 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:47,280 Right. 464 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,280 And so what we need to do, we need to enjoy God in the process. 465 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,720 We're not here to make anyone feel guilty or ashamed. 466 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:55,720 Okay. 467 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:56,720 Okay. 468 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:02,560 We want people to celebrate the amazing future that God has planned that we get to play a 469 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:03,560 part in. 470 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:10,680 And so we have to also trust if I've followed Jesus my whole life and I've never heard this, 471 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:18,920 well, listen, the grace of God has been at work around those blind spots doing what he 472 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:23,960 wants to produce in you the whole time. 473 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:31,560 Now if you get on board, you can accelerate and you can just assume I haven't lost anything. 474 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:32,560 You know? 475 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:33,560 Right. 476 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:42,160 So it's just important to really trust God to be patient and to remember this is fun. 477 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:43,160 Right? 478 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,440 This conversation is fun. 479 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:46,440 Yeah. 480 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:47,440 We get to do this. 481 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:48,520 I don't have to do this. 482 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,480 I get to do this. 483 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:58,040 And the more things click into place, the faster I can accelerate down the path. 484 00:30:58,040 --> 00:30:59,040 You know? 485 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:04,720 And then really the ultimate goal is to get a church full of people who are an army capable 486 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,960 of instructing all the other Christians in the dark out there. 487 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:13,120 They all know that Jesus was raised from the dead. 488 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,240 Do you know anybody in Hobbes, New Mexico that doesn't know that? 489 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:17,240 No. 490 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:18,600 You know? 491 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,920 And people think that's the gospel. 492 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,240 That's not anywhere described as the gospel in the New Testament. 493 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:29,720 The only thing Jesus refers to as the gospel is the gospel of the kingdom. 494 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:37,880 And so the more we can get people not only prepared to comprehend this message, to participate 495 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:43,920 in it, but to communicate it to the world around them. 496 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:48,640 I said this in our last conversation, Matthew chapter 24. 497 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,940 I believe the time is running short. 498 00:31:51,940 --> 00:32:01,600 And Jesus says in Matthew 24, this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the 499 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:06,760 world and then the end will come. 500 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:11,200 I believe this is the mission because the gospel has been preached in all the world, 501 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,820 but the gospel of the kingdom has not. 502 00:32:13,820 --> 00:32:23,180 And so I believe this is going to be the agenda in the coming season of the church to equip 503 00:32:23,180 --> 00:32:26,560 the body of Christ with this message, not only so that they understand it, but so that 504 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,720 they can teach it to others. 505 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,320 So, I think that's good. 506 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:33,920 I think we needed to get that in there. 507 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:34,920 Okay, good. 508 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:35,920 Okay, good. 509 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:36,920 All right. 510 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:37,920 I think we're good. 511 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:38,920 Thanks for coming in. 512 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:39,920 Well, you're welcome. 513 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:45,200 And I tell you what, I would encourage you to continue kind of thinking about things 514 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:46,400 that intrigue you. 515 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:47,400 Okay. 516 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:52,000 And let's do this again in the future whenever you feel like it's necessary. 517 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:53,000 Okay. 518 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:54,000 Or with you. 519 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:55,000 Yeah. 520 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,600 Because I take notes in every sermon. 521 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,240 I'm not going to say I have a question every time, but I do take notes. 522 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,080 So whenever you want to. 523 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:05,520 We could do this once a week. 524 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:10,800 And if it's just 15 minutes, if it's just 10 minutes, it's still going to be worth 525 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:11,800 sharing. 526 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:12,800 Okay. 527 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:13,800 So. 528 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:14,800 Okay. 529 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:15,800 Well, let's see how it goes. 530 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:16,800 All right. 531 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:17,800 You'll see what the finished product is. 532 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:36,800 Yeah, you may want. 533 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:49,800 Okay. 534 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:50,800 Thanks for coming in. 535 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:51,800 Thanks for having me. 536 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:52,800 We'll see you later. 537 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:54,860 you 538 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,860 you 539 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,860 you