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Welcome to Dating Log, the podcast that records the ups and downs of dating in your 30s.

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I'm your host, Wyndham Juneau, and this is episode 11, Not Sacrificing the Single Life.

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Jamie is a guy who has been exclusively dating in his 30s and as an expat. In this episode,

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we talk about how breakups and short relationships are all a part of the dating cycle. And we ask a

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big question. Does getting into a relationship have to mean giving up all the great things

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about being single? Listen to find out what he thinks.

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Okay, I'm Jamie, I'm 37 years old. I live in Amsterdam. I'm heterosexual. And yeah,

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I've been, I started dating mostly after my 30s, to be honest. I think in the first part of my life,

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I was very focused on partying. And also there was more of the scene in the city where I grew

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up in in Brazil. And yeah, it has been an interesting journey in this for me. And I

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feel learned a lot the past couple of years. So an interesting journey.

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No, I think first of all, about the not dating so much. I think in my earlier years, I was a

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bit of a shy person and not so insecure, quite insecure. So I was mostly going out clubbing and

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ending up in hookups. And that was more of what my romantic life was being about. I've always been

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into sad music or things like that. And then I was a bit into going to friend zone, like a bit of

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what in the 90s or 20s will be classified as an emo or whatever, or indie or whatever. But I think

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in that sense, with the people that I really liked, I was always ending up a bit into the

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friend zone. And then I would go out clubbing and end up into more short term relationships. So

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that's, that's what things were for me like, up until my 25 ish 27, 25 ish. And that's when I had

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a first long term relationship of about one year with a person from abroad, back in Sao Paulo,

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which was much older. And I think up until that point of life, I was also the people that I would

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meet would be mostly older, like 10 years older, or so. But anyway, I think after some time, I

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concluded that I felt that that was not what that was not going to work. And that was about the time

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that I was looking to move to the Netherlands. Yeah, that's how I ended up here and started

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exploring dating in this different environment. Yeah, here, during my studies, I became good

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friends with the girl that I was much into. And we ended up getting into a relationship for almost

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three years. So also my first years in the Netherlands, I didn't get to know much about

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how dating was like here. I think only after we had a very hard breakup, I think we were just very

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different. And even though, I don't know, I think we had very similar values, but we started

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realizing that we had very different interests about what we like to do. And at some point that

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becomes became unbearable. We split and I started going to apps. Anyway, I think that's been a bit

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of a long detour. But I think apps, apps experience was a bit painful for me in the beginning, at least

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I think with this lack of experience with how dating works in first place, or what kind of

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communication you're supposed to use, or like how long your sentences should be. I think now looking

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back, I realized that I was being quite absurd sometimes of like, sending romantic compliments

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or from the moment that you get a match with the person. And then I think through time, you realize

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how creepy or unaware of things one can be. And yeah, actually, through time, I started valuing

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the fact that I went through this experience and have been in this experience. Because I think I

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think I've started learning more about people, not only on the romantic way, but I think more

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about communication and about being more empathetic about other people's feelings.

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Which apps are you using?

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I'm using Bumble at the moment. And before that, I used Tinder for some time and happened for some

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time. And yeah, I find funny how they seem to have very different publics. And I don't even

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understand how that ends up happening, probably through the algorithms. But Bumble for some reason,

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which I thought wasn't possible, seems to have people more like minded or more attractive to me.

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And that's why I've been using it for the last six months.

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Have you been exclusively dating since your relationship ended when you were about 30?

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No, I've been in a few relationships. I'm sorry, I think that was a long term relationship that was

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worth mentioning. But other than that, I went into a one year long relationship with someone in the

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Netherlands that didn't, yeah, it just never really flew or just I think we never felt engaged

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enough to take it some steps further or like feel really exclusive to each other. And yeah, other

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than a couple of more shorter term relationships, I just had the breakup one month ago, after three

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months together with someone and yeah, we actually didn't meet through apps we met analogically in

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in in a festival and

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Okay, and what happened there?

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No, it was actually a neighborhood market or festival or something like that. And I went

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randomly after work, they're looking to just see what was going on. And they had they're trying to

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promote the local shops of this neighborhood, which was very nicely organized event. And then

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and I went there on my own because I just like exploring the city a bit even though I've been

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living here for a long time. It's always a bit of why not. And yeah, actually, I was very happy

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that they had lots of free goodies. And then this lady and her group were standing next to me and

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we did some eye contact and then they asked if there was space in my table, started chatting,

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swapped numbers. And then yeah, some three days later, we met and then yeah, actually met quite

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frequently in the first weeks. I think we've had a very good connection, especially it might sound

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a bit generic. But I think that's also one thing that I the dating got me to learn more about

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myself was this type of affection that you need, which is something that I had never really stopped

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to think about. And I realized that I really like physical contact in terms of being hugged or like,

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being, yeah, being close to each other, which is something that sometimes in other cultures is not

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so common. I think in Latin, maybe it's a stereotypical thing, but in Brazil, maybe we're

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more into that. And yeah, I felt that from the start, we were very close to each other walking,

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hugged each other. And yeah, I just felt very comfortable from the start. But then on other

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hands, I think gradually started realizing that our conversations weren't so fulfilling for me or

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sometimes a bit annoying about or at least I would feel annoyed at how self centered they felt to me

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like that it was a bit of a monologue. Some might be a bit monologuish now.

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It's okay. This episode is about you and your dating experience.

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Yeah, so I'll make excuses to talk about myself on this occasion. But if this was a date, yeah,

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then I think that would become a bit tiring. And that's how I felt a bit after some time thinking,

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okay, if this is going to be my life from now on, maybe that this is not for me.

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Yeah, I'm curious how this is was this the first time you've broken up with someone like actively?

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No, not in this case exactly. But I think in the past few years, I think I'm mostly Yeah, I think

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most of the cases I have been the one after some time noticing, okay, this is, okay, this is not

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what I'm looking for. And then go through a breakup. And usually I've been the first breaking up.

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And yeah, I've always feel shit about it after, yeah, causing someone to cry.

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How do you do the breakup?

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Yeah, I've been trying to find out what is the right timing for that. Because it's this last time,

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but for example, we went out for dinner and I thought, okay, if I break up now,

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the dinner are going to be an asshole. We had agreed we're going to sleep at her house.

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I thought if I break up when we arrive at her house, I'm going to be an asshole.

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So I'm sorry about the language, but I just could, I kept thinking, okay, what is the nice or most

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considerate way of doing this, but there's no right way at least. I concluded there was at the

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while going to get our bikes. So as soon as we were getting to unlock, maybe many people used

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this strategy, but I just interrupted her unlocking the bike saying, sorry, I'm not going to be able

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to join you. But yeah, in other situations, I didn't, I don't know, I delayed too long and

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I left it for next morning, for example, and I felt like very bad person for having pretended

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that nothing was in my mind or yeah, or you schedule a date with someone and you say right away,

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as soon as the person arrived that you're breaking up, I feel like I wasted the time of the person

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making her come to just be dumb or to do it by phone. So I think a short question would be that

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there's no nice way of doing it. Have you scheduled a date with someone just to break up with them?

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Yes, I hope. No, but I mean, we had been going out for, I had five dates or something and

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I had been thinking a lot about with myself, okay, is this really going to work? And yeah,

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I don't know what I don't, I don't know if that's not a nice thing to do, but I just thought that

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doing it online, of course that yeah, doing it online is also maybe equally considerate because

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you're not taking one's time. I don't know, there's just no right or wrong with these things, I guess.

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No, I don't think there is, but I think you bring up a good point that breaking up is also part of

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dating, especially when you've invested some time in someone and then you reach a point like,

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oh, maybe this isn't going to work or maybe this person isn't for me.

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Yeah, I know it certainly isn't. I think on how to digest it, I think especially on the,

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maybe not so much on being dumped, but getting rejected after a first date and getting a message.

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I don't know, a couple of times I received a message saying, yeah, okay, after first date,

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say this is, I don't see it romantic in any way or yeah, I just don't feel, just I think nowadays

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I understand that it's a completely, yeah, actually very considerate. I find it more considerate,

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at least I feel it's more considerate than ghosting on someone. It used to hurt me a lot

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because I would, you might want more details about it and ask yourself what is not romantic or what

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could you please elaborate on what, I wouldn't ask one to explain that, but I would be maybe out of

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my insecurities, I would be trying to find out what did I do wrong or what could I have done

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differently? Well, I think in practice, there's nothing, for many things, there's just nothing

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that we can do differently, right? It's just, it is just a matter, it's nothing really personal,

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often it's just a matter of whether you were the right fit for a person or not.

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Yeah, I was going to ask how you deal with rejection.

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Yeah, I dealt miserably and I'm not going to say that I deal well because you might see me crying,

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hugging a street post. That's allowed.

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No, I'm not, I don't mean now, but I mean in, I think we can try to shield ourselves and

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I think I tried to believe that I learned a bit better nowadays through this, having gone through

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the dating process in these past years, but I think it always hurts when you create, I wouldn't

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say high expectations, but when you feel very connected with someone and or probably that's

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expectations, connection is a generic word, but I think you, yeah, you think that you, that you

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liked each other deeply and anyway, I think you don't need to describe rejection.

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Anyone knows how it feels.

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Have you been ghosted like unexpectedly before or let's say since you've been dating?

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Yeah, I think there's different levels of ghosting, I think.

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Oh, tell me.

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I know, I've seen friends having a person who is taking them for a long period, literally

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disappearing, which I can only imagine how hurting that can be, but getting ghosted in apps,

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yeah, I think that happens very frequently. I've been through that many times.

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And I asked friends, at least being quite revolted from my side, thinking, how can one

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do that? But then asking people around me, they would say, well, I wouldn't go through

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the effort of having a confrontation. Yeah, that made me stop and think about it and made

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me, yeah, also respect their position about that. And I understand that confrontations

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are not always easy. I mean, not everyone wants to go through that. Yeah, I think that's

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it. I don't take it personal to get ghosted, but I don't do that to others. Or at least

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I try not to.

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What are you looking for in your life right now with regards to dating?

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I feel very silly to at my age, 37, say, I don't know what I'm looking for. But maybe

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I should be happy about that, because I think sometimes we have certainties in our life

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that can be big mistakes. I don't know. I think sometimes it's better not to know what

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you want. And yeah, I just, yeah, at the moment, I'm not really looking for someone. I'm just,

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yeah, I feel that I have been in a bit of a stressful period at work and also reflecting

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on whether I might want to move to another country or, yeah, or about whether my or about

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whether I would like to be sometime closer to my family, because I have some family members

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that are not doing very well health wise at the moment. But anyway, I think because of

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this personal considerations, I've been questioning myself a lot whether it would make sense to

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rope anyone into this mess or to commit to something while you don't really have the

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proper mind space for a quality relationship or you might not be the best shape of yourself

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mind wise. I don't know.

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I'm going to ask the hard question. Why are you even dating right now if you have all

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this stuff kind of hanging on your shoulder and you might be moving and you don't have

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the headspace?

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No, that's it's a it's a hard but fair question. And yeah, I just don't know what the alternative

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would be like to sit on my hands. And I don't know. I just I think I find dating interesting

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in any case, I think talking to new people and talking to strangers is regardless an

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interesting experience. And yeah, maybe maybe there are better there are other ways to do

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it in an adult life in other than through a romantic relationship. There's there's many

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ways of hearing other stories and creating a connection. But yeah, of course, like any

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anyone with sexual or romantic needs and and and yeah, I think I think it's I find it difficult

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to I don't feel lonely if I'm on my without a partner for a long period. And I don't mind

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doing things on my own. So I don't feel that I need company or I want I'm looking for company.

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But yeah, I do have I do feel the need of affection and feeling yeah, appreciated by

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someone, especially being an expat, I think, or I'm probably not an expat anymore. But

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whatever you call it, but but being living abroad and having no family around us. And

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I think especially when you're in your 30s, many of my many of your friends start moving

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into a more serious life and moving to other cities and life, you can find yourself doing

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nothing on a Friday or Saturday. And there's plenty of things that one could be doing.

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But yeah, I just didn't I just didn't go through a process of just didn't put the effort into

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finding what to do with my time other than going out to bars or going out clubbing and

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socializing. Maybe the answer is just that I like socializing and then as a collateral

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effect you end up dating. But why would I go into apps? I don't know. I don't probably

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I shouldn't.

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You mentioned, yeah, some friends like in their 30s and, you know, moving and settling

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down and stuff out of your social circles and your friend groups. Are are you the only

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single one or do you have friends who are also dating? Like, where do you fit into that?

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Yeah, I think I'm one of my few. I'm one of the few in my circle who are actively dating

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at the moment. Yeah, I think most of my friends, especially after covid accelerated the seriousness

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of their relationships and either had a kid or moved to the countryside are both not necessarily

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in disorder. And yeah, suddenly life became very different than what what it was before,

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which is, yeah, I don't complain about it. That's of course that's how life should be

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and things should change. And yeah, I think since then I felt a bigger problem, felt a

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bigger urge of not finding someone but of going to dates if I'm not going out to a bar

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with a group of friends or things like that. Maybe that maybe that actually means finding

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company. But I didn't put a lot of thought on that before. But yeah, so most of my friends

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nowadays are married and my friends who are single. Yeah, some of them either are too

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busy to be or claim to be too busy to be dating or they are taking this posture, which maybe

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I should be doing or suppose they should be doing of accepting that they don't have mind

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space to be dating at the moment. So they simply don't do it at all. And yeah, and some

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others they they are I think the others just don't speak about it. I think guys might be

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a bit less outspoken about it. Or at least my friends are not very outspoken about that,

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about how their dating life is going. What is it that you like about dating? Yeah, I

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like the fact that you get what it of course that depends on who the person is. But you

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get for a part of your life for some moment in your life, assuming that the relationship

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is not going to last. Sorry, I put it to my disclaimers. Yeah, what I like about dating

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is that for some period or a short period in your life, you get to see a lot about the

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life of another person or one shares a lot or takes you into their reality for, yeah,

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for a period. Yeah, I always value that one can, yeah, is willing to, yeah, to share a

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piece of their life with you for even if it's briefly, you get to know about one siblings

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and you get to exchange ideas. And you get to learn about what the path of this person

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was up until then. Yeah, I think you just get to learn a lot about different perspectives

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or how other people see the world or things that are important to you, or how they feel

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about things that are important to you. You also get to learn a lot about yourself or

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at least I learn about what you appreciate and what you like. And in some way you learn

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about what you can learn about what your own habits, which of your own habits can be annoying

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or appreciated to others. I don't know, but there's an infinite things that you can learn

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through getting intimate with others, even if it's through a single meeting.

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Yeah. Are there any things that have stuck out to you that you've learned about yourself

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through dating? Maybe not being too negative or too shooting myself on the feet. I don't

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know if that's the term in English, but... Yeah, shooting yourself in the foot.

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On the foot. Okay. So yeah, I think I've often been very self-critical and I think in a date

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that definitely quickly backfires at you. And I think when you're hanging out or when

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you're dating with people who are open and I don't know, tell you that you're... Yeah,

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I think some people would help in that process and tell you if something that you're doing

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is not helpful for yourself or things like that. So I just feel that maybe I might be

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sounding negative and self-critical in this call itself. But I think I've learned to be

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more positive or to present myself or try to put my best face out there, which actually

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turns out to not maybe not even be my best face, but just be my normal face. And it's

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just that in some situations you might be inclined to be more negative than you should

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be. I think that's one of the things that I've tried to take away out from dates. I

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think also trying to generally be more emotionally responsible. I don't know if that would be

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a term, but you can't guess how something will land on someone and how the breakup cases,

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you can't really influence how one will receive that. And there's not much that you can do

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about it. But I think having been on one's show and having to go through these situations

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of like the example that I described about the parking lot, I think this becomes an important

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life learning. At least for me, it made me a more, maybe more kind person or more mindful

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of how my actions can impact someone on the other side for the date being an equalizing

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situation that you've been through that and you're causing to others something that you've

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been through as well. So I don't know. I think it, as I said before, I feel that it has made

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me a better person than I was seven years ago. Probably maybe worse person in some aspects,

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but let's not go into that. Why do you say that? You're already self-deprecating. Yeah,

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exactly. No, I think- Where does this come from? No, I don't know. I'm not aware of what

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negative data can bring in one person. I think generally I'm only familiar with the positive

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aspects of it. Have you had any really bad dates? Yeah, I think one that I remember was

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a girl that was extremely sarcastic and criticizing me a lot from the very first two minutes that

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we met each other. We scheduled a date in a bar that doesn't exist here anymore. But

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anyway, I arrived there and I think she didn't, at least she didn't, her pictures were very

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different from her in person. And then she was also already quite, came across as a bit

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grumpy and making some very acid comments about me asking if, are these, asking if my

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sunglasses were fake. I don't know why I was wearing sunglasses, but they do. No, it was,

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I had them. Anyway, so I thought it was going to last 30 seconds or one minute and we were

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going to walk away. But it turned out that a bunch of friends of mine showed up at the

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same bar because there was a World Cup match happening and they coincidentally asked to

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join our table and they became friends with her and we ended up staying together the whole

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evening. But it just, okay, it's not as bad as it can be. But after drinking a lot, we

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actually started making out, we started kissing and we ended up sleeping together. But yeah,

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the next, obviously next day I remember why we hadn't clicked or how we didn't click at

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all in the beginning. But anyway, I think it could have been worse. But yeah, I don't

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know, waking up on the, by the side of someone that you completely don't like and don't click

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wasn't a very nice experience. Other than that, yeah, there's, I think this is one that

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I always think about, but other than that, nothing too tragic or too horrible.

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Anything else that was memorable?

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Yeah, I think many were memorable. Actually, I just had a very nice date. Now I was traveling

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in Georgia. I met someone randomly in a cafe and we exchanged numbers and we planned to

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have dinner the next day. And it just felt like we, the next day when we met for dinner,

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we noticed that we had a lot in common, even though we come from a complete different reality.

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And we had, yeah, we had very similar concerns about politics or about things that were happening

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in her country and about some things that are meaningful to me. She showed me a lot

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about her city, like we hang out a lot. And we actually ended up talking, sitting in a

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square until five in the morning and I had to work the next day. Yeah, we scheduled,

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we had another date on the next day and then I had to leave the country. But I left, yeah,

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of course, feeling quite, yeah, heartbroken to be leaving. But yeah, it also reminded

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me of how wonderful it is that humans can be so, have so much in common, even having

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a completely different story or coming from a complete other side of the world. And actually,

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we also had quite some eight years of difference age-wise and worked in completely different

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industries. And yeah, I just think that dates provide us the chance of, you know, of seeing

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this, as I said earlier, of having a glimpse of what is the life like of another person.

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And yeah, it would have been wonderful if it had worked out, but I think both of us

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had it clear that it wasn't going to turn into a relationship.

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And why is that?

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I don't think, yeah, I don't think I would be keen on a long distance relationship nowadays.

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And I think also from her side, I think, at least in that sense, I think we're comfortably

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aligned in terms of expectations, which I think makes things much more relaxed in any

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circumstance. I think that's sometimes one of my only fears or regrets that I feel when

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I get into a relationship seriously, that maybe that puts a bit too much weight on expectations

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is that I find a single life so beautiful that it confronts you with this randomness

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of meeting people out of nothing. And for a relationship to be worth or for me to be

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worth giving up on this adventure that life presents me, I expect it to be at least make

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me not think about giving up on this because I'm sorry, I'm not a problem explaining it

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very well.

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No, no, I love it.

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I just value so much the situations that I don't feel and I ask myself when I'm beginning

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to be in a relationship and I'm in doubt, I ask myself, do I like this person? Of course,

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that's what question that anyone would ask. But I ask, do I like it enough that I would

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be not be thinking about the experiences that I'm giving up on or that I'm accepting that

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I won't be living?

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I am curious, why does getting into a relationship for you mean or have to mean giving up on

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the randomness and the other things of your single life? Why do you think this?

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Yeah, you're totally right. It doesn't have to, but I think maybe it's a bit of too...

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Well, to be fair, I noticed that even when traveling with friends or doing things with

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friends, I find myself more close to contacting others or I find myself, even if there's no

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demand of exclusivity, we are too focused on each other to be engaging with others or

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having conversations with strangers or to talk to the waiter. That's my impression,

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even when I'm spending time with friends in a festival or things like that. And with a

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relationship, it is often similar and it doesn't have necessarily to be like that. I fully

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agree. I did see my previous experiences in most cases. It was a bit of a situation that

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monopolizes your attention as opposed to the world around you, which is fine and is great,

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but when you want to.

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Do you think it's possible to do it differently?

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Yeah, I'm sure. I think there's so many forms of relationships and to be frank, I haven't

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tried open relationships. I've tried uncommitted relationships, but I wouldn't call that an

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open relationship. I think engaging with others in the first place doesn't imply romantically

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engaging with others at all. I just mean in terms of attention or where your attention

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goes to. I think things can be different, but it just depends on what the other person's

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behavior would be like. For example, this person that I was dating, she mentioned that

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she wouldn't be interested in having new friends and she would find it strange if I would make

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too many new friends, especially female. But that alone maybe wouldn't lead me to break

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up. But that was one of the yellow or red flags to me to think that there were expectations

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of a bit of an affectionate exclusivity or friendship exclusivity. Maybe it doesn't shock

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me so much because I think in Brazil where I come from, relationships often seem to be

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very much like that. Of course, I've been away for a long time, but couples do everything

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together and really inform each other where they are. There's often not much traveling

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with people from work. That's how it felt back when I lived there. Maybe it doesn't

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feel so abnormal to me that one asks that. Maybe that created a good boogeyman in my

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imagination. When is your next date? I'm going to a wine festival with this lady that I'm

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seeing. We went on two dates since last week. We met last Sunday and then we met this past

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Saturday and then we agreed to go to a wine. I don't think it's a festival tasting with

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some friends of hers. It sounds very serious to me. But again, you see that suddenly we're

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moving to milestones because why going out to a wine something with her friends means

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a milestone at all. Maybe one could feel scared about, oh, we're going to meet your friends

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after two dates. When it doesn't mean anything, maybe we're not going anywhere. I really enjoy

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her company. I don't think it's going to work out romantically, but I'm loving the dates,

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the two dates that we had together. I think I learned a lot in the chats with her. She

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understands a lot about natural wines, which I don't understand anything about. In the

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worst case, I learned a bit about that from her. I'm looking forward to seeing her again.

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That sounds really nice. The last question, do you have any advice or words of wisdom

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you want to leave our listeners with? I think for someone who would be getting into dating

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apps or who had been away from this dating world for some time, I think one might feel

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intimidated or feel hurt about the personality of some situations like ghosting or people

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sending you very short messages or taking five days to reply. I think my advice would

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be that, yeah, I think we all go through this. At least that's what I hear from those who

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are also going into dates. Just don't take bad situations personal. I don't know, focus

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on the positive and beautiful things that you can get out of dates and all the fun time

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that you can have by knowing strangers, even if it's not going to be someone who you're

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going to be romantically involved with. It's just beautiful to meet other people, especially

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if it's people who are like-minded with you. Actually, not that. I would correct that because

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I think meeting people who are different from you is equally interesting, maybe even more

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interesting. I find it positive in any case. Maybe that's why I struggled to find an example

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of a bad date because I think even this bad date example that I gave, I wouldn't do anything

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differently and I can't think of a date that I would undo in my life. I think everything

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was worth it. Dating Log is recorded and hosted by me, Wyndham Juno. It is produced by Harry

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Dark. Our artwork is in collaboration with Esme Heming Studio. You can follow us on Instagram

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at Dating Log Podcast. Our website is datinglogpodcast.com. If you'd like to send us a message, you can

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slide into our Instagram DMs or email us at datinglogpodcast.gmail.com. Please like and

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subscribe wherever you listen and if you're enjoying the episode so far, leave a review

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and tell a friend. We'll be back in a fortnight with the next episode. Please don't ghost

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us.