Welcome to Dating Log, the podcast that records the ups and downs of dating in your 30s.
I'm your host, Wyndham Juneau, and this is Episode 9, Anxiously Attached.
Alice came onto our call with lots of energy and excitement.
Also with an apology and an explanation, hashtag anxiously attached, but she was ready to share
completely vulnerably with a total stranger.
From the get go, we had a super good flow.
We touched on queerness, attachment styles, what do we actually want, and what if it's
not what's expected of us.
This conversation left me with energy for days and I cannot wait for you to hear it.
Enjoy!
I'm a third, 30 something, well I just sent that to you Anxiously, but it was a couple
of days ago.
And I'm based in Nairobi, Kenya.
Yeah, I've worked a bit in some few other places, but home base is Nairobi and that's
like, that's where a lot of my dating life and stories have been.
So I'm bisexual, pansexual.
I use queer because it's just like, I feel like it helps me, it's, it feels like a very
grounding space to stand on because it's like, I feel like I've been attracted to people
who are of all different genders.
So I don't really feel like I'm attached to one particular orientation, if that makes
sense.
I will say because I was raised in Kenya, I think a lot of my dating experiences have
been with men, but that's like something that I know is just like more circumstantial than
like about me myself.
That makes sense.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Thank you for sharing.
How do you meet people when you go on dates?
Yeah, that's a good one.
Well, I've used, yes, I just got out of a long relationship.
Well, yeah, like a near long relationship with someone, a man that I met on Bumble,
like a year and a half ago, and we dated for like a year and then we just broke up very
recently.
Outside of him, I think I've met a few, I met a few other people on Bumble, but that's
the first relationship that really took off and went somewhere.
For the most part, I think it's been folks that I met through friends or at events.
There is a very thriving queer scene in Kenya, even though it's like it's underground for
obvious reasons.
And so there'll be events and mixes and stuff.
And so I used to attend those more often.
And so I met people there.
And then also like art events, art galleries tend to be like a really, like it's not, I
haven't, I did meet someone there once.
So I actually two different people at an art event and ended up dating both of them separately.
So yeah, it's kind of a mix of everything.
But like, more often than not, it's in person and it's a friend of a friend of someone else
that you know.
And then I don't know how the online dating scene is in Nairobi.
I have quite a few friends who've married, not in Nairobi though, like people in the
States who married folks they met on the apps.
But I feel like it's not as much, well, I don't know in Kenya, maybe it's not, it's
hard for me to tell how common it is in Kenya right now.
Yeah, so for me to get mixed, but for the most part, it's been folks I met in person.
Is that how people are generally meeting other people in Nairobi?
Because you say you don't really know, but what about your friends?
What are they doing?
How are they finding dates?
You know, it's funny because I have, so I studied in the US and then I came back to
Kenya after graduation.
And so I have a pretty good mix of friends who are based like, like many of them abroad,
but then a lot of them also based in Nairobi.
I would say that for my friends who are based in the States, like actually like last year
I went for a wedding and this year I'm going for two weddings where they met their person
on an app, right?
So it's like as far, actually like, and I think as far back as like 2018, I was going
for weddings where people met online.
When I think about the experience in Kenya, I think two things, it is happening, but perhaps
one thing that kind of masks it is that you'll meet, you'll end up meeting, the people you
meet online tend to be folks who are in your circle anyway, like Nairobi, the middle-class
communities, not that big.
It's very, it's quite incestuous, you might say.
So you will end up meeting folks that you probably would have met anyway through like
one, two, three, four connections.
So it's not that far removed.
So even when I know of folks who've met online in Nairobi, it's tended to be, they've met
people who turned out they knew, you know, like I knew or someone else knew.
So it's often been like, there's still like some sort of connection that would have brought
them together anyway, I guess.
Yeah.
You mentioned that you were just out of a year-long relationship.
How are you feeling about that?
Yeah.
I mean, still, I feel the thing about breakups, especially when it's someone you really cared
about, which I really cared about him, is that it's one of those things where I feel
like I'm, first I was not okay, like 24 seven, and I was, you know, a bit of a mess.
And then now I feel like I'm okay most of the time.
And then every so often someone will ask me how I'm doing.
And I'm like, oh, actually, I am still kind of sad about it.
It's so, I don't know, I feel, I feel a little emotionally unavailable.
It's tough.
I feel kind of stuck right now because I, it's been long enough that I don't know if
we'll get back together.
Like it doesn't feel like it's something that's on the table right now, but it hasn't been
long enough that I can think about moving on with someone.
And so, I said, in that way, I kind of feel like I'm stuck in limbo in this in-between
spot.
I recently like went on a couple of, I don't even know if you'd call them dates, like hangouts
with someone who seems quite promising and maybe in a different point in my life would
have been, but then I just feel, I literally feel like I'm being, I feel like a complete
asshole to be quite honest.
And I'm probably not doing anything that's too asshole-y, but I just, like I've been
on the other side of this and I just feel like, ah, like I'm, I'm the worst.
Yeah, it's tough.
It is.
Can you tell me about these couple of dates, hangouts you went on?
Yeah, so it's, he's a friend of, like we have mutual friends.
I met him at a gathering, like it was just like a party.
And it really does feel like it's like always wrong timing because the first time when we
met, I was just getting into this relationship.
And so we didn't see each other for a while and then we met again now and now I'm single,
but like, and so like we, it was like a, it was a friend's birthday and first we went
out into, like we were somewhere out of town and then we were driving back in until he
drove, like he drove us there and back because we had to, we coupled in a couple of groups.
And so at some point he and I were just like driving, the kind was very comfortable, very
easy and just like really nice conversation.
And then after that we hang out again another time and then I left, I traveled so we haven't
been able to see each other since, but we've been talking pretty frequently or we had been
at some point and then I kind of like, wasn't as like, I was also like other things are
happening, but it's, I think, so are you familiar with attachment theory and attachment styles?
Yes, but no one's talked about it on the podcast yet.
So please go ahead, explain a little bit and say what you want to say.
Yes.
Yeah, no, I mean, so basically it's, and I mean, like this, this of course is all like
it's, it's scientific quote unquote, like there's always questions about how correct
it is, but basically it's like the other, like based on our, how we attach to our caregivers,
our parents or whoever brought us up, we have certain habits or certain strategies that
we lean on when we are attaching to romantic partners, but also to friends.
So basically like how, I mean, it's like, it's like the basic sense or the base, basic
facts of it are depending on the home you were raised in, like you show up in certain
ways in your relationships as an adult and there's like tests and stuff and I, you know,
I can, I can send this to you afterwards, but like I've done this test, like I do this
test very regularly to kind of keep tabs on my attachment style, which I just feel like,
yeah.
And the first time I did this test, I was anxiously attached, which I feel like, like
I think if you're anxiously attached, you're probably the person who's doing this test
because anxiously attached people tend to like, well, people who have anxious attachments
are probably the ones who are most invested in like figuring out what's going on with
them because what it means is that in relationships, anxiously attached people tend to take on
more of the blame when things go wrong and more of the burden for like initiating.
So like, so anxiously attached people take, tend to take on more of the effort on that
side and then avoidantly attached people would be on the other side.
So they tend to retreat and they're less like, they're more, they're more self-sufficient
and when how they show up in relationships is very much reflective of that.
I've done, I've really butchered it.
Like they're, they're really good articles about this.
And then there's like the lucky few people who are securely attached, which means they
walk into relationships and they're just like, I don't do it.
Like, you know, for me it's like, it's like, it's a learning process.
I've been, I've been figuring out with my therapist, like, okay, so sometimes I'll tell
her something and she'll be like, yeah, you know, that, like, that's your attachment side.
And I'm like, wait, like, what do, what do you securely attach people do?
Like it really for me is like this big mystery.
What do people, but basically if you grow up and your parents are receptive and your
home was calm and like, you know, and they were attuned to your needs, like you just,
you show up in life, like knowing that the world will take care of you.
And it's like, and that for me is like, you know, cause I had like a crazy upbringing
and my folks had like their own, like my parents are divorced and it was like a really messy
divorce.
So I feel like for me, the idea that like some, like the idea of like calm, it's just
like not consciously, I wouldn't say it, but then subconsciously I feel like I would gravitate
towards like mess or towards like things that were not calm and easy.
Yeah.
And so, oh, and then the fun, like, so yeah, so the, like God's chosen few are securely
attached, but then some people have happened to have like elements of both anxiously and
avoidant like they're both anxiously and avoidantly attached because like, you know, like if you
went through some shit when you're a young guy, it tends to reflect.
And like, none of this is set in stone.
Like you can start off secure and maybe have a bad dating experience and then end up being
a little more avoidant or anxiously attached or you can start off anxious and then kind
of like walk your way to something that's more secure.
So I feel, so I've been doing anyway, all of this is to say when I first did this test,
I thought I was anxiously attached.
I was, I came, like it said I was anxiously attached and I've been trying to do the work,
like get to a more secure attachment, which is just like a lot of therapy and a lot of
like work on like my trauma and like things that I wasn't aware of, that I was carrying
a belief that I had about like relationships.
So yeah, so anyway, so it's, but where all of this is going, I feel like I just like
went on such a tangent, but like, well, this is going, I was going to say that like, this
is because I'm actually attached, I'm very, I was actually attached when I think about
my dating relationships.
I'm very accustomed to being on the side where I'm trying to like, win someone over or I'm
trying to convince someone to like, you know, so now that I'm like just out of this relationship
and I'm in this position where someone is trying to like build that connection and I'm
not as receptive or as like engaged as I normally would be, it's like a very odd experience
for me.
I feel like, oh, like this is what, you know, like this is like what it is to be on the
other side of that.
It feels strange.
It just feels like it's not what I'm used to, if that makes sense.
So I'm used to being the person who's like, yeah.
And you've in the meantime, since your, let's say last relationship in the last years of
your life, you've been doing therapy and you've become aware of these things.
And now you've reached another level, I guess, of approaching dating and relationships.
Is that right?
I think part of it is that like, I definitely think that I'm more securely attached now
than I was a couple of years ago.
But I also, I mean, I do recognize that I'm emotionally unavailable right now.
And so, yeah.
And so it's almost like, okay, maybe, and you know, it is what it is.
Like it makes sense that when you've just gotten out of a relationship, you wouldn't
be immediately ready to jump into something new, but it's always very, it's very unusual
for me to be, it feels, I don't know, it just feels unusual.
It feels odd.
I have so many questions, but do you notice a difference in the dating scene between,
let's say, the heteronormative world and the queer world?
I feel, I think yes.
And then I think there's the added element of living in a country where your existence
is criminalized.
So I think there is, and I think, yeah, for sure that like the messiness and the chaos
is still, I don't think it's unique to the heterosexual world.
I think it looks different, right?
Like I think that, you know, when you're thinking about, when I'm thinking about dating a man
in Nairobi, I'm thinking about the gender dynamics in a certain way.
I'm thinking about the fact that, oh, is he going to be like a misogynist guy?
Like are we going to sit down, like the first few things he says are terrible?
Or are we going to like have a nice time?
And then I start to notice things here and then I'm like, oh, hold on a second.
Like, is this someone I want to be with?
Right?
So you're always kind of like making those deliberations as you go along.
And with queer people, maybe that is, or with queer women, it's not as much of a consideration,
but then you're also thinking like, is this someone who is still not at peace with themselves
or is still kind of struggling with their sexuality?
And I've been talking with like some friends of mine and one of them was talking about
how now that she's getting to a point where folks are partnering up and getting married,
there's always a question of like, okay, well, if you're queer, how are you going to navigate
that?
Right?
Like, do you get married and just invite your friends?
Are you going to hide, essentially hide a whole marriage from your family?
Right?
So I think, and maybe that's the thing that seems to kind of exist in both of those, in
all of these spaces, the idea of secrets.
Right?
And I think that's almost like, I don't, and I don't think it's just about like, yes, part
of it is like hiding relationships from other people.
So like whether you're queer and hiding your relationship from people who are very important
in your life or you're straight and you have, you're having an affair and you're hiding
that from important, or you're hiding a family from another part of your life.
Right?
So I think that's kind of like secrecy.
And I think, but I think it just, it goes even beyond that.
I think that even when people are together in relationships, sometimes I don't, I think
there's still a lot of secrecy even within the relationship, even when it's not about
infidelity.
You mentioned that your friends and let's say people around you are reaching the point
where they partner and marry.
What are the societal expectations of that in Nairobi?
And do you feel that pressure or?
Oh, you know, a few years back, I was talking to someone and they said something like, you
felt like it was that game.
Is it like musical chairs where the music is playing and the music stops and everyone
grabs a chair and you're just like, wait, hold on.
Like, I didn't know we're playing this game.
And she said at the time and I laughed about it.
And recently I'm like, oh, I actually kind of see it.
Because I feel like, so I have like, yes, like every year a few, one or two friends
will get married.
Right.
And this has been the last couple of years it's been happening every year.
Whereas there was a time when I felt like we were all single, you know, like someone
would be dating someone, but you kind of didn't know where it was going to go.
And now it's like, someone brings their partner to the wedding and you know, their wedding
is going to be like the next year or two.
Like it's become like, it's become a thing.
It's like a rite of passage.
And I have yet to take a partner to one of, I've yet to like go with a partner to a wedding.
Usually not even because it's planned or anything, it's like a logistical thing.
Like it's never worked out like that.
I could go to a wedding at a place and my partner was also available.
So I've never, I've never taken a partner to one of these weddings, but I definitely
feel like if I was to, if I was to invite someone, I'd have to think about it very seriously
and have to be like, okay, like, is this someone that I see myself getting my itune a couple
of years because I can't take it, like I can't take you to this wedding and then keep getting
asked about you for like, you know, the foreseeable future.
So I have to like be very, very like particular about it.
And same with introducing folks to your parents.
Like I feel like when you were younger, you could get away with introducing someone and
you know, there's no, like, it's like, huh, okay, that's your friend.
But now I feel like you have to be, I don't know.
I just feel like, like, nobody's putting pressure on me and my family or anything, but I just
feel like before I introduced them to somebody, I have to be ready for the fact that they'll
have they'll want, you know, they'll be like, oh, is this something?
Is this something like, are we going to keep, you know, I think there's more of a sense
that like, if you're introducing someone to your family right now or to your close friends
right now, there's an expectation or an understanding that, oh, this could be something that lasts
for a while.
I will, I don't, nobody in my family, like my mom, so my mom, my mom doesn't put any
pressure on us guys.
Like sometimes she'll say things like, oh, it would be nice to have grandkids, but then
she's always like, but I'm not pressuring you.
So it's kind of like, I think it's a nice to have, but I think for us, she's just like
not as attached to, she's more attached to the idea of us being happy and healthy than
us being partnered up.
I think it would be nice.
I mean, it would be nice for us as well, but like my younger sister is now dating someone
pretty seriously and they moved in together.
And I just feel like last ones really pushed the envelope of like, cause my mom is super,
super religious.
So the fact that she's like accepted that my sister and has a living boyfriend and they're
together and she visited them.
I'm just like, wow, like really like last one get a very different experience from the
rest of us.
Cause I feel like I would never have told my, you know, like I would never, I would
have moved into my boyfriend secretly and just like never told my mom.
But so yeah, but then, so there's no pressure.
My mom doesn't put any pressure on us, but I know folks who get that a bit in their,
like their parents or usually actually, sorry, when your parents, it's probably like a nosy
auntie or uncle somewhere who's like, you know, what's the deal?
What's happening?
I think maybe like statistically, probably around this age is when like that pressure
is higher for other people.
Personally, I just don't, I feel like I'm very, like I'm very protected.
Like I, it doesn't feel like I have to, on top of like dating and chaos, I also have
to deal with like people being like, you need to find someone.
Yeah.
But I'll say internally, and I've never been the kind of person who was like, like I, I,
I wasn't the kid who would be like planning out my life and being like, I want to get
married.
Like it's never been a thing getting married has never been like at the top of my mind.
And it's still not like, I don't think my life is less meaningful if I don't have, if
I don't get married, but I'll say it's sometimes tough when everyone around you or when it
feels like everyone around you is partnered up or when you're sitting at a gathering and
like everyone's with their person and you kind of on your own.
And you know, it's like, nobody's, everyone's being kind and, you know, generous and open,
but it's still, I went for like not long after I had ended my relationship, I went to the
coast of Kenya with some friends and I was the only person there who was not in a relationship.
So everyone was there with their partner, except for me and this other guy whose partner
was in Germany.
So and that's like, there was a point where we're all walking on the beach and I was just
like, oh, just like, like I'm so happy for everyone, but also like, oh, I cannot do this
because everyone was holding hands and looking to the sunsets and like, you can just tell
like everyone was having their moment and then I was just, I was having my own moment
on my own, but it was a very different experience from, from what the rest were having.
How was that moment for you?
What was going through your head?
Just seeing everyone partnered up around you.
Yeah.
It was a whole weekend of this, so there were lots of, like, like it was just, it was a
whole weekend of like everyone sits next to their partner and then they, you know, like
it's, it's a close, it's beautiful.
It's like, it's such a nice destination to go with someone you love.
I'm like, so yeah, so I'm, I'm, I'm happy.
I was happy for everyone, right?
And this was just after I'd gotten out of my relationship, but I think I was not prepared
for, I wasn't ready for it and I wasn't ready for that.
That's the first time I've actually been in a space where everyone else was in a serious
long-term relationship.
So I think I also just wasn't prepared for it.
And so I feel like a lot of it is like, I hadn't prepared myself for the possibility
that at some point in my life, I will be sitting in spaces and everyone else will be coupled
up or most people will be coupled up and I will not.
And even though I had never, I had, like, even though I wouldn't think about marriage
or a lot, like that wasn't at the top of my things that I need to achieve or attain, it
never occurred to me that that, that, that meant that as a matter of act or like that,
that would lead to me being in the spaces as a single person surrounded by all these
romantic couplings.
So I think a part of it is almost like, I'm almost like, huh, like this, this is what,
like, this is what it's going to be now.
I'm so kind of surprised.
It's a little unexpected.
It's a little like, okay, like this is an adjustment getting used to like a different
kind of, I don't know, it just feels, it feels very different and unexpected.
It felt, it was hard at the time because I was newly single.
It was really, really hard.
And it was nice to be away from home at the time because I really needed to get away from,
like, I needed that.
But it was very tough to being in a space and to realize, oh, like, I could have been
here with my person and I'm not.
And now I have to watch all these other people be really happy together and kind of feel
a little bit sad for myself.
But then also like, I can't just like feel sorry for myself because then I don't want
to be the downer at this event.
So I also don't, I, I feel at the same time, sometimes I look at my friends who are like
in serious relationship, like married and or approaching marriage.
And you know, when you've been friends with someone for a long time, you've seen them
be messy.
You've seen them, like you've seen their best sides, but you've also seen their worst sides.
And sometimes I'm like, well, if, if they can be in a, if they're in a relationship
and it seems to be working, like clearly there's hope for everyone.
And not, that sounds so rude, but less like, less like that and more like, well, clearly
then I'm not, like, it's not me.
The fact that I'm, I'm not there yet doesn't mean that there's something about me that's
so wrong and so broken.
It's just, you know, it's just a matter of finding my person.
And so sometimes I'm like, okay, like I'll find someone who can accommodate my version
of like weirdness or, yeah.
So I find it very comforting to see my friends.
Like it's very reassuring in a way, but then sometimes I'm like, wait, hold on.
Maybe I'm just like completely disconnected to how bad, like maybe I'm more of a mess
than I'm, I'm acknowledging, but no, I think it's just reassuring to realize that, okay,
like you just need some, you don't need someone who's perfect.
You just need someone who fits your type of like weird or you're, I don't like the word
crazy, but like someone who fits your like oddness, you know?
Uniqueness, how about we say?
Yeah, yeah.
I use that word.
Yeah.
I like uniqueness.
Is being in a long-term partnered relationship something that you're looking for and that
you want in your life?
I think there's, I mean, I think there are things that I'm still not sure about.
Like what, you know, I, it's sometimes it's hard to envision my life partner or something
like, like it's hard for me to envision what they would, you know, like it's just, it's
sometimes a little hard for me to like imagine what they would look like or what they would
be like.
Like it's just, it's hard for lots of reasons.
Sometimes that's like a little challenging for me to conceptualize.
So sometimes I feel like, well, maybe, you know, maybe not everyone is supposed to be,
not, maybe not everyone should get married, you know, like maybe not everyone should be
doing those things and having, like maybe not everyone should be doing those things
like getting married and having kids, like maybe that's not, like maybe that's not for
all of us.
And then that, that means like thinking about, okay, what, what would it mean?
I think maybe that's where I'm at now is thinking about what it would mean if I wasn't to go
down that path.
Like what did it mean?
Would it, it would mean like more weddings where, you know, I would go solo or I'd go
with a friend or, you know.
Which would mean like being an aunt as my friends have children.
But what would it mean?
Because I think that also as a woman, especially if you decide to have children, there's certain
trade-offs that you make, right?
And so that for me is like, that for me does make me a little bit nervous because I feel
like I'm kind of, I have like this window of a couple of years when I have to decide
if I want kids or not.
And I ideally wouldn't want to be doing it alone.
Like I would want to have a partner, but then, you know, like, so then there's like the thought
process, like, okay, if I want to have kids, what would I need in order to like set things
in place to have children financially, but also like in terms of community.
But then the flip side of it is, so what if I don't decide to have kids?
What if I, what if I just don't decide like, this is the life that I want to live?
Like how am I going to give my life meaning?
And I just, I think maybe that's also a shift that has happened as I've seen my friends
take that path is now I'm asking myself that question in a more like intentional way.
And it's so scary, right?
Cause I feel like this is, I don't know.
It's scary to kind of have to think about like, how do I give my life purpose and meaning
when there's this other way that other people are on me are giving their life purpose and
meaning.
And I feel like also like I've, I've never been the person who would like plan for my
future, but I also, I'm not, I think the people were very clear on like their child's free
by choice.
They don't, you know, they get people who are very clear on like, that's who they are.
And like, that's who, you know, so I feel like I'm neither one of these, I'm not in
either of these camps.
I'm just kind of in the middle of living my life and, you know, trying to, so I don't,
I don't know.
And it's, I would be interesting if like we spoke a year or two from now and maybe I'd
have a very different perspective.
Do you have a next date planned with anyone?
I don't have a date planned.
There is someone that I was talking to and we, we like vaguely agreed to hang out when
I got back to Nairobi.
I also, I'm, I also vaguely planned to hang out with my ex when we get back to Nairobi.
So I don't know, man.
So who knows?
No, I don't have a next date planned yet.
And the last question, do you have any advice or words of wisdom that you want to leave
other listeners with who are dating?
Yeah, that's a good one.
Oh, I'm, oh, I feel like, I guess I think something that's been really reaffirming for
me or something that's been really affirming to me as I, as I grow older, so is just kind
of listening to your gut and, and it's, it's, it's one of those things that's tough, right?
Because I'm, I'm, I'm always like asking like, what's the difference between like just my
anxiety where sometimes I'm wrong and I'm just kind of like projecting my own fears
into a situation versus actually this person puts me ill at ease and I don't feel right
about like, you know, and what the distinction is between the two of them.
And it's so funny because like, I cannot put it in words, but I feel like you kind of know,
I think there's always like a deep sense of knowing and maybe that's what you were alluding
to when you said that usually within the first date, you have a sense of like, is this, is
there something here?
Is there not?
I do think that we tend to know.
And I think we know when, like we know in all the fronts, right?
Like we know, is this someone who's good for me?
Is this someone who's like, is there an attraction here?
Am I interested in this person?
Are they like genuinely, you know, like I feel like there are things that we kind of
know, but maybe we overlook because we're trying to like stay open.
So, and I think on the flip side of that, I think there are times when personally I
have maybe ignored my gut and like, and kind of just like reasoned my way out of like what
I feel or what I'm noticing about myself.
So I feel like that's probably the, and I don't even know if I'd give this as advice
to your readers, cause I, your listeners, cause I'm guessing some of them already know
to do this.
So maybe it's advice to a younger version of myself or anyone who's kind of like, feels
like they have resonance with some of the things that I'm saying is like the importance
of checking in with yourself and of taking things slow.
And if someone is the right person for you, like I don't think that they're going to
disappear or stop being the right person for you tomorrow or in a week from now.
So kind of like honoring that if it doesn't work out, like that's, that's okay.
And that's like part of the journey.
Dating Log is recorded and hosted by me, Wyndham Juneau.
It is produced by Harry Dark.
Our artwork is in collaboration with Esme Hemming Studio.
You can follow us on Instagram at datinglogpodcast.
Our website is datinglogpodcast.com.
Check it out.
We've just updated it.
If you'd like to send us a message, you can slide into our Instagram DMS or send us an
email at datinglogpodcast.gmail.com.
Please like and subscribe wherever you listen.
And if you're enjoying the episode so far, leave a review and tell a friend.
We'll see you in a fortnight.
Please don't ghost us.