1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:17,120 Welcome to Dating Log, the podcast that records the ups and downs of dating in your 30s. 2 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:23,600 I'm your host, Wyndham Juneau, and this is Episode 9, Anxiously Attached. 3 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,840 Alice came onto our call with lots of energy and excitement. 4 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:34,080 Also with an apology and an explanation, hashtag anxiously attached, but she was ready to share 5 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:38,000 completely vulnerably with a total stranger. 6 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,400 From the get go, we had a super good flow. 7 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:46,160 We touched on queerness, attachment styles, what do we actually want, and what if it's 8 00:00:46,160 --> 00:00:49,000 not what's expected of us. 9 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:54,240 This conversation left me with energy for days and I cannot wait for you to hear it. 10 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:55,240 Enjoy! 11 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:59,960 I'm a third, 30 something, well I just sent that to you Anxiously, but it was a couple 12 00:00:59,960 --> 00:01:01,200 of days ago. 13 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,080 And I'm based in Nairobi, Kenya. 14 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:07,120 Yeah, I've worked a bit in some few other places, but home base is Nairobi and that's 15 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,800 like, that's where a lot of my dating life and stories have been. 16 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,520 So I'm bisexual, pansexual. 17 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:20,880 I use queer because it's just like, I feel like it helps me, it's, it feels like a very 18 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:26,860 grounding space to stand on because it's like, I feel like I've been attracted to people 19 00:01:26,860 --> 00:01:29,360 who are of all different genders. 20 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:35,000 So I don't really feel like I'm attached to one particular orientation, if that makes 21 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:36,000 sense. 22 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,880 I will say because I was raised in Kenya, I think a lot of my dating experiences have 23 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:44,320 been with men, but that's like something that I know is just like more circumstantial than 24 00:01:44,320 --> 00:01:46,120 like about me myself. 25 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:47,120 That makes sense. 26 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:48,120 Yeah, yeah, definitely. 27 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:49,120 Thank you for sharing. 28 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:54,840 How do you meet people when you go on dates? 29 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,040 Yeah, that's a good one. 30 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,760 Well, I've used, yes, I just got out of a long relationship. 31 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:06,480 Well, yeah, like a near long relationship with someone, a man that I met on Bumble, 32 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:11,280 like a year and a half ago, and we dated for like a year and then we just broke up very 33 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:12,280 recently. 34 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,680 Outside of him, I think I've met a few, I met a few other people on Bumble, but that's 35 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:20,280 the first relationship that really took off and went somewhere. 36 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:26,520 For the most part, I think it's been folks that I met through friends or at events. 37 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,960 There is a very thriving queer scene in Kenya, even though it's like it's underground for 38 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:30,960 obvious reasons. 39 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,560 And so there'll be events and mixes and stuff. 40 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:35,720 And so I used to attend those more often. 41 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:37,180 And so I met people there. 42 00:02:37,180 --> 00:02:43,160 And then also like art events, art galleries tend to be like a really, like it's not, I 43 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,640 haven't, I did meet someone there once. 44 00:02:45,640 --> 00:02:50,320 So I actually two different people at an art event and ended up dating both of them separately. 45 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,560 So yeah, it's kind of a mix of everything. 46 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:58,240 But like, more often than not, it's in person and it's a friend of a friend of someone else 47 00:02:58,240 --> 00:02:59,760 that you know. 48 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,800 And then I don't know how the online dating scene is in Nairobi. 49 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,000 I have quite a few friends who've married, not in Nairobi though, like people in the 50 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,360 States who married folks they met on the apps. 51 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,720 But I feel like it's not as much, well, I don't know in Kenya, maybe it's not, it's 52 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,880 hard for me to tell how common it is in Kenya right now. 53 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:22,920 Yeah, so for me to get mixed, but for the most part, it's been folks I met in person. 54 00:03:22,920 --> 00:03:28,800 Is that how people are generally meeting other people in Nairobi? 55 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,240 Because you say you don't really know, but what about your friends? 56 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:32,240 What are they doing? 57 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:33,720 How are they finding dates? 58 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:37,120 You know, it's funny because I have, so I studied in the US and then I came back to 59 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:38,120 Kenya after graduation. 60 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:43,800 And so I have a pretty good mix of friends who are based like, like many of them abroad, 61 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:45,880 but then a lot of them also based in Nairobi. 62 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:54,200 I would say that for my friends who are based in the States, like actually like last year 63 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:59,000 I went for a wedding and this year I'm going for two weddings where they met their person 64 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,280 on an app, right? 65 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,920 So it's like as far, actually like, and I think as far back as like 2018, I was going 66 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,400 for weddings where people met online. 67 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:15,280 When I think about the experience in Kenya, I think two things, it is happening, but perhaps 68 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,520 one thing that kind of masks it is that you'll meet, you'll end up meeting, the people you 69 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:23,520 meet online tend to be folks who are in your circle anyway, like Nairobi, the middle-class 70 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,120 communities, not that big. 71 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,960 It's very, it's quite incestuous, you might say. 72 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:34,620 So you will end up meeting folks that you probably would have met anyway through like 73 00:04:34,620 --> 00:04:36,320 one, two, three, four connections. 74 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,260 So it's not that far removed. 75 00:04:39,260 --> 00:04:44,200 So even when I know of folks who've met online in Nairobi, it's tended to be, they've met 76 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,800 people who turned out they knew, you know, like I knew or someone else knew. 77 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:52,000 So it's often been like, there's still like some sort of connection that would have brought 78 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,600 them together anyway, I guess. 79 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:55,600 Yeah. 80 00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:00,760 You mentioned that you were just out of a year-long relationship. 81 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:02,040 How are you feeling about that? 82 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:03,040 Yeah. 83 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:07,880 I mean, still, I feel the thing about breakups, especially when it's someone you really cared 84 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,840 about, which I really cared about him, is that it's one of those things where I feel 85 00:05:11,840 --> 00:05:17,040 like I'm, first I was not okay, like 24 seven, and I was, you know, a bit of a mess. 86 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,840 And then now I feel like I'm okay most of the time. 87 00:05:19,840 --> 00:05:21,760 And then every so often someone will ask me how I'm doing. 88 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,760 And I'm like, oh, actually, I am still kind of sad about it. 89 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:31,920 It's so, I don't know, I feel, I feel a little emotionally unavailable. 90 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:33,480 It's tough. 91 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:38,560 I feel kind of stuck right now because I, it's been long enough that I don't know if 92 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:39,560 we'll get back together. 93 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:43,600 Like it doesn't feel like it's something that's on the table right now, but it hasn't been 94 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,520 long enough that I can think about moving on with someone. 95 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:51,400 And so, I said, in that way, I kind of feel like I'm stuck in limbo in this in-between 96 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:52,760 spot. 97 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:57,560 I recently like went on a couple of, I don't even know if you'd call them dates, like hangouts 98 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:02,960 with someone who seems quite promising and maybe in a different point in my life would 99 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:08,040 have been, but then I just feel, I literally feel like I'm being, I feel like a complete 100 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,440 asshole to be quite honest. 101 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,280 And I'm probably not doing anything that's too asshole-y, but I just, like I've been 102 00:06:14,280 --> 00:06:18,960 on the other side of this and I just feel like, ah, like I'm, I'm the worst. 103 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:20,800 Yeah, it's tough. 104 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:21,800 It is. 105 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:26,280 Can you tell me about these couple of dates, hangouts you went on? 106 00:06:26,280 --> 00:06:33,000 Yeah, so it's, he's a friend of, like we have mutual friends. 107 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:38,440 I met him at a gathering, like it was just like a party. 108 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:44,160 And it really does feel like it's like always wrong timing because the first time when we 109 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,400 met, I was just getting into this relationship. 110 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,880 And so we didn't see each other for a while and then we met again now and now I'm single, 111 00:06:52,880 --> 00:07:02,800 but like, and so like we, it was like a, it was a friend's birthday and first we went 112 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:07,360 out into, like we were somewhere out of town and then we were driving back in until he 113 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:13,640 drove, like he drove us there and back because we had to, we coupled in a couple of groups. 114 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:17,960 And so at some point he and I were just like driving, the kind was very comfortable, very 115 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,720 easy and just like really nice conversation. 116 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:27,920 And then after that we hang out again another time and then I left, I traveled so we haven't 117 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:33,600 been able to see each other since, but we've been talking pretty frequently or we had been 118 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:38,920 at some point and then I kind of like, wasn't as like, I was also like other things are 119 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:46,000 happening, but it's, I think, so are you familiar with attachment theory and attachment styles? 120 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,720 Yes, but no one's talked about it on the podcast yet. 121 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:53,320 So please go ahead, explain a little bit and say what you want to say. 122 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:54,320 Yes. 123 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:58,920 Yeah, no, I mean, so basically it's, and I mean, like this, this of course is all like 124 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:03,360 it's, it's scientific quote unquote, like there's always questions about how correct 125 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,520 it is, but basically it's like the other, like based on our, how we attach to our caregivers, 126 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:14,320 our parents or whoever brought us up, we have certain habits or certain strategies that 127 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:18,200 we lean on when we are attaching to romantic partners, but also to friends. 128 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:23,560 So basically like how, I mean, it's like, it's like the basic sense or the base, basic 129 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,280 facts of it are depending on the home you were raised in, like you show up in certain 130 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:32,000 ways in your relationships as an adult and there's like tests and stuff and I, you know, 131 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,640 I can, I can send this to you afterwards, but like I've done this test, like I do this 132 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:40,800 test very regularly to kind of keep tabs on my attachment style, which I just feel like, 133 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:41,800 yeah. 134 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:46,160 And the first time I did this test, I was anxiously attached, which I feel like, like 135 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,040 I think if you're anxiously attached, you're probably the person who's doing this test 136 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:53,800 because anxiously attached people tend to like, well, people who have anxious attachments 137 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,800 are probably the ones who are most invested in like figuring out what's going on with 138 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:02,120 them because what it means is that in relationships, anxiously attached people tend to take on 139 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:06,600 more of the blame when things go wrong and more of the burden for like initiating. 140 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,440 So like, so anxiously attached people take, tend to take on more of the effort on that 141 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:15,400 side and then avoidantly attached people would be on the other side. 142 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:20,440 So they tend to retreat and they're less like, they're more, they're more self-sufficient 143 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:24,320 and when how they show up in relationships is very much reflective of that. 144 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:25,880 I've done, I've really butchered it. 145 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,320 Like they're, they're really good articles about this. 146 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:33,120 And then there's like the lucky few people who are securely attached, which means they 147 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,760 walk into relationships and they're just like, I don't do it. 148 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,400 Like, you know, for me it's like, it's like, it's a learning process. 149 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:43,360 I've been, I've been figuring out with my therapist, like, okay, so sometimes I'll tell 150 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,440 her something and she'll be like, yeah, you know, that, like, that's your attachment side. 151 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,680 And I'm like, wait, like, what do, what do you securely attach people do? 152 00:09:50,680 --> 00:09:54,360 Like it really for me is like this big mystery. 153 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,640 What do people, but basically if you grow up and your parents are receptive and your 154 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:03,500 home was calm and like, you know, and they were attuned to your needs, like you just, 155 00:10:03,500 --> 00:10:08,080 you show up in life, like knowing that the world will take care of you. 156 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:13,240 And it's like, and that for me is like, you know, cause I had like a crazy upbringing 157 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,640 and my folks had like their own, like my parents are divorced and it was like a really messy 158 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:17,640 divorce. 159 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:22,520 So I feel like for me, the idea that like some, like the idea of like calm, it's just 160 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:29,120 like not consciously, I wouldn't say it, but then subconsciously I feel like I would gravitate 161 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:35,000 towards like mess or towards like things that were not calm and easy. 162 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:36,000 Yeah. 163 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:42,400 And so, oh, and then the fun, like, so yeah, so the, like God's chosen few are securely 164 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:47,800 attached, but then some people have happened to have like elements of both anxiously and 165 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:54,320 avoidant like they're both anxiously and avoidantly attached because like, you know, like if you 166 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,840 went through some shit when you're a young guy, it tends to reflect. 167 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:58,920 And like, none of this is set in stone. 168 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:03,200 Like you can start off secure and maybe have a bad dating experience and then end up being 169 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,680 a little more avoidant or anxiously attached or you can start off anxious and then kind 170 00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:10,160 of like walk your way to something that's more secure. 171 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:14,080 So I feel, so I've been doing anyway, all of this is to say when I first did this test, 172 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:15,680 I thought I was anxiously attached. 173 00:11:15,680 --> 00:11:19,320 I was, I came, like it said I was anxiously attached and I've been trying to do the work, 174 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:24,800 like get to a more secure attachment, which is just like a lot of therapy and a lot of 175 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:29,920 like work on like my trauma and like things that I wasn't aware of, that I was carrying 176 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:34,960 a belief that I had about like relationships. 177 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:39,040 So yeah, so anyway, so it's, but where all of this is going, I feel like I just like 178 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:45,880 went on such a tangent, but like, well, this is going, I was going to say that like, this 179 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:51,280 is because I'm actually attached, I'm very, I was actually attached when I think about 180 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,640 my dating relationships. 181 00:11:53,640 --> 00:12:00,080 I'm very accustomed to being on the side where I'm trying to like, win someone over or I'm 182 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:07,360 trying to convince someone to like, you know, so now that I'm like just out of this relationship 183 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,920 and I'm in this position where someone is trying to like build that connection and I'm 184 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:18,280 not as receptive or as like engaged as I normally would be, it's like a very odd experience 185 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:19,280 for me. 186 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:23,520 I feel like, oh, like this is what, you know, like this is like what it is to be on the 187 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:24,520 other side of that. 188 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:25,520 It feels strange. 189 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,800 It just feels like it's not what I'm used to, if that makes sense. 190 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:33,440 So I'm used to being the person who's like, yeah. 191 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:38,160 And you've in the meantime, since your, let's say last relationship in the last years of 192 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:42,440 your life, you've been doing therapy and you've become aware of these things. 193 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:49,320 And now you've reached another level, I guess, of approaching dating and relationships. 194 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:50,320 Is that right? 195 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,760 I think part of it is that like, I definitely think that I'm more securely attached now 196 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,920 than I was a couple of years ago. 197 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:04,640 But I also, I mean, I do recognize that I'm emotionally unavailable right now. 198 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:06,640 And so, yeah. 199 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:11,800 And so it's almost like, okay, maybe, and you know, it is what it is. 200 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,600 Like it makes sense that when you've just gotten out of a relationship, you wouldn't 201 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:21,720 be immediately ready to jump into something new, but it's always very, it's very unusual 202 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:26,920 for me to be, it feels, I don't know, it just feels unusual. 203 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:27,920 It feels odd. 204 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:36,000 I have so many questions, but do you notice a difference in the dating scene between, 205 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:40,960 let's say, the heteronormative world and the queer world? 206 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,600 I feel, I think yes. 207 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:48,960 And then I think there's the added element of living in a country where your existence 208 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,600 is criminalized. 209 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:59,040 So I think there is, and I think, yeah, for sure that like the messiness and the chaos 210 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:04,160 is still, I don't think it's unique to the heterosexual world. 211 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:05,840 I think it looks different, right? 212 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:11,520 Like I think that, you know, when you're thinking about, when I'm thinking about dating a man 213 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,160 in Nairobi, I'm thinking about the gender dynamics in a certain way. 214 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:19,000 I'm thinking about the fact that, oh, is he going to be like a misogynist guy? 215 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:24,200 Like are we going to sit down, like the first few things he says are terrible? 216 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:25,880 Or are we going to like have a nice time? 217 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,400 And then I start to notice things here and then I'm like, oh, hold on a second. 218 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,160 Like, is this someone I want to be with? 219 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:32,160 Right? 220 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,440 So you're always kind of like making those deliberations as you go along. 221 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:42,200 And with queer people, maybe that is, or with queer women, it's not as much of a consideration, 222 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:50,600 but then you're also thinking like, is this someone who is still not at peace with themselves 223 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,800 or is still kind of struggling with their sexuality? 224 00:14:54,800 --> 00:15:02,160 And I've been talking with like some friends of mine and one of them was talking about 225 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:07,400 how now that she's getting to a point where folks are partnering up and getting married, 226 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:14,480 there's always a question of like, okay, well, if you're queer, how are you going to navigate 227 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:15,480 that? 228 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:16,480 Right? 229 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:17,680 Like, do you get married and just invite your friends? 230 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:23,600 Are you going to hide, essentially hide a whole marriage from your family? 231 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,600 Right? 232 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:31,680 So I think, and maybe that's the thing that seems to kind of exist in both of those, in 233 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:33,840 all of these spaces, the idea of secrets. 234 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:34,840 Right? 235 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:43,840 And I think that's almost like, I don't, and I don't think it's just about like, yes, part 236 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,160 of it is like hiding relationships from other people. 237 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:51,640 So like whether you're queer and hiding your relationship from people who are very important 238 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:57,240 in your life or you're straight and you have, you're having an affair and you're hiding 239 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:02,000 that from important, or you're hiding a family from another part of your life. 240 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:03,000 Right? 241 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,480 So I think that's kind of like secrecy. 242 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:08,960 And I think, but I think it just, it goes even beyond that. 243 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:18,040 I think that even when people are together in relationships, sometimes I don't, I think 244 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:22,280 there's still a lot of secrecy even within the relationship, even when it's not about 245 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,360 infidelity. 246 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:30,040 You mentioned that your friends and let's say people around you are reaching the point 247 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,160 where they partner and marry. 248 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,720 What are the societal expectations of that in Nairobi? 249 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:37,880 And do you feel that pressure or? 250 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:42,600 Oh, you know, a few years back, I was talking to someone and they said something like, you 251 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,600 felt like it was that game. 252 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:49,560 Is it like musical chairs where the music is playing and the music stops and everyone 253 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:51,960 grabs a chair and you're just like, wait, hold on. 254 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:53,800 Like, I didn't know we're playing this game. 255 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,240 And she said at the time and I laughed about it. 256 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,560 And recently I'm like, oh, I actually kind of see it. 257 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:05,480 Because I feel like, so I have like, yes, like every year a few, one or two friends 258 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:06,480 will get married. 259 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:07,480 Right. 260 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:09,440 And this has been the last couple of years it's been happening every year. 261 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,960 Whereas there was a time when I felt like we were all single, you know, like someone 262 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,240 would be dating someone, but you kind of didn't know where it was going to go. 263 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:22,120 And now it's like, someone brings their partner to the wedding and you know, their wedding 264 00:17:22,120 --> 00:17:23,520 is going to be like the next year or two. 265 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:25,400 Like it's become like, it's become a thing. 266 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,000 It's like a rite of passage. 267 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:34,760 And I have yet to take a partner to one of, I've yet to like go with a partner to a wedding. 268 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,200 Usually not even because it's planned or anything, it's like a logistical thing. 269 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:39,800 Like it's never worked out like that. 270 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,800 I could go to a wedding at a place and my partner was also available. 271 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:49,600 So I've never, I've never taken a partner to one of these weddings, but I definitely 272 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:54,160 feel like if I was to, if I was to invite someone, I'd have to think about it very seriously 273 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:58,440 and have to be like, okay, like, is this someone that I see myself getting my itune a couple 274 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:04,360 of years because I can't take it, like I can't take you to this wedding and then keep getting 275 00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:07,080 asked about you for like, you know, the foreseeable future. 276 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,440 So I have to like be very, very like particular about it. 277 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,320 And same with introducing folks to your parents. 278 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:15,680 Like I feel like when you were younger, you could get away with introducing someone and 279 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,840 you know, there's no, like, it's like, huh, okay, that's your friend. 280 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,480 But now I feel like you have to be, I don't know. 281 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,680 I just feel like, like, nobody's putting pressure on me and my family or anything, but I just 282 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:31,040 feel like before I introduced them to somebody, I have to be ready for the fact that they'll 283 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,240 have they'll want, you know, they'll be like, oh, is this something? 284 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,640 Is this something like, are we going to keep, you know, I think there's more of a sense 285 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:42,620 that like, if you're introducing someone to your family right now or to your close friends 286 00:18:42,620 --> 00:18:48,240 right now, there's an expectation or an understanding that, oh, this could be something that lasts 287 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:49,740 for a while. 288 00:18:49,740 --> 00:18:58,320 I will, I don't, nobody in my family, like my mom, so my mom, my mom doesn't put any 289 00:18:58,320 --> 00:18:59,320 pressure on us guys. 290 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,280 Like sometimes she'll say things like, oh, it would be nice to have grandkids, but then 291 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:03,920 she's always like, but I'm not pressuring you. 292 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:08,400 So it's kind of like, I think it's a nice to have, but I think for us, she's just like 293 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,960 not as attached to, she's more attached to the idea of us being happy and healthy than 294 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:13,680 us being partnered up. 295 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:14,680 I think it would be nice. 296 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:19,520 I mean, it would be nice for us as well, but like my younger sister is now dating someone 297 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,080 pretty seriously and they moved in together. 298 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:27,080 And I just feel like last ones really pushed the envelope of like, cause my mom is super, 299 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:28,160 super religious. 300 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:33,200 So the fact that she's like accepted that my sister and has a living boyfriend and they're 301 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:34,400 together and she visited them. 302 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,440 I'm just like, wow, like really like last one get a very different experience from the 303 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:39,440 rest of us. 304 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,520 Cause I feel like I would never have told my, you know, like I would never, I would 305 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:48,320 have moved into my boyfriend secretly and just like never told my mom. 306 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,240 But so yeah, but then, so there's no pressure. 307 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:56,120 My mom doesn't put any pressure on us, but I know folks who get that a bit in their, 308 00:19:56,120 --> 00:20:00,360 like their parents or usually actually, sorry, when your parents, it's probably like a nosy 309 00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:03,920 auntie or uncle somewhere who's like, you know, what's the deal? 310 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:04,920 What's happening? 311 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:14,240 I think maybe like statistically, probably around this age is when like that pressure 312 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:16,120 is higher for other people. 313 00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:19,840 Personally, I just don't, I feel like I'm very, like I'm very protected. 314 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:23,880 Like I, it doesn't feel like I have to, on top of like dating and chaos, I also have 315 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,560 to deal with like people being like, you need to find someone. 316 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:27,560 Yeah. 317 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:36,000 But I'll say internally, and I've never been the kind of person who was like, like I, I, 318 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,920 I wasn't the kid who would be like planning out my life and being like, I want to get 319 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:40,920 married. 320 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:45,920 Like it's never been a thing getting married has never been like at the top of my mind. 321 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,080 And it's still not like, I don't think my life is less meaningful if I don't have, if 322 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:54,120 I don't get married, but I'll say it's sometimes tough when everyone around you or when it 323 00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:58,160 feels like everyone around you is partnered up or when you're sitting at a gathering and 324 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:03,720 like everyone's with their person and you kind of on your own. 325 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:08,640 And you know, it's like, nobody's, everyone's being kind and, you know, generous and open, 326 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:14,680 but it's still, I went for like not long after I had ended my relationship, I went to the 327 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:20,440 coast of Kenya with some friends and I was the only person there who was not in a relationship. 328 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,200 So everyone was there with their partner, except for me and this other guy whose partner 329 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:25,200 was in Germany. 330 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:30,280 So and that's like, there was a point where we're all walking on the beach and I was just 331 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:35,800 like, oh, just like, like I'm so happy for everyone, but also like, oh, I cannot do this 332 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:40,920 because everyone was holding hands and looking to the sunsets and like, you can just tell 333 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:45,160 like everyone was having their moment and then I was just, I was having my own moment 334 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:50,800 on my own, but it was a very different experience from, from what the rest were having. 335 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:52,080 How was that moment for you? 336 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:53,680 What was going through your head? 337 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,480 Just seeing everyone partnered up around you. 338 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:57,480 Yeah. 339 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:04,280 It was a whole weekend of this, so there were lots of, like, like it was just, it was a 340 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:09,440 whole weekend of like everyone sits next to their partner and then they, you know, like 341 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,120 it's, it's a close, it's beautiful. 342 00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:14,360 It's like, it's such a nice destination to go with someone you love. 343 00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:17,440 I'm like, so yeah, so I'm, I'm, I'm happy. 344 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,360 I was happy for everyone, right? 345 00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:24,440 And this was just after I'd gotten out of my relationship, but I think I was not prepared 346 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,360 for, I wasn't ready for it and I wasn't ready for that. 347 00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:31,440 That's the first time I've actually been in a space where everyone else was in a serious 348 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,400 long-term relationship. 349 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,240 So I think I also just wasn't prepared for it. 350 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,560 And so I feel like a lot of it is like, I hadn't prepared myself for the possibility 351 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:45,000 that at some point in my life, I will be sitting in spaces and everyone else will be coupled 352 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,360 up or most people will be coupled up and I will not. 353 00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:55,200 And even though I had never, I had, like, even though I wouldn't think about marriage 354 00:22:55,200 --> 00:23:00,160 or a lot, like that wasn't at the top of my things that I need to achieve or attain, it 355 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:06,360 never occurred to me that that, that, that meant that as a matter of act or like that, 356 00:23:06,360 --> 00:23:11,200 that would lead to me being in the spaces as a single person surrounded by all these 357 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,600 romantic couplings. 358 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:20,320 So I think a part of it is almost like, I'm almost like, huh, like this, this is what, 359 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,120 like, this is what it's going to be now. 360 00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:24,080 I'm so kind of surprised. 361 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:25,080 It's a little unexpected. 362 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:29,600 It's a little like, okay, like this is an adjustment getting used to like a different 363 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:37,240 kind of, I don't know, it just feels, it feels very different and unexpected. 364 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,600 It felt, it was hard at the time because I was newly single. 365 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,560 It was really, really hard. 366 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:50,080 And it was nice to be away from home at the time because I really needed to get away from, 367 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,960 like, I needed that. 368 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,080 But it was very tough to being in a space and to realize, oh, like, I could have been 369 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,040 here with my person and I'm not. 370 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,960 And now I have to watch all these other people be really happy together and kind of feel 371 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,320 a little bit sad for myself. 372 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,400 But then also like, I can't just like feel sorry for myself because then I don't want 373 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,000 to be the downer at this event. 374 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:25,520 So I also don't, I, I feel at the same time, sometimes I look at my friends who are like 375 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,840 in serious relationship, like married and or approaching marriage. 376 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,360 And you know, when you've been friends with someone for a long time, you've seen them 377 00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:33,360 be messy. 378 00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:37,560 You've seen them, like you've seen their best sides, but you've also seen their worst sides. 379 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:42,320 And sometimes I'm like, well, if, if they can be in a, if they're in a relationship 380 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:46,640 and it seems to be working, like clearly there's hope for everyone. 381 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:52,040 And not, that sounds so rude, but less like, less like that and more like, well, clearly 382 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,440 then I'm not, like, it's not me. 383 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,480 The fact that I'm, I'm not there yet doesn't mean that there's something about me that's 384 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,640 so wrong and so broken. 385 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,520 It's just, you know, it's just a matter of finding my person. 386 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,480 And so sometimes I'm like, okay, like I'll find someone who can accommodate my version 387 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,720 of like weirdness or, yeah. 388 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,400 So I find it very comforting to see my friends. 389 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:18,200 Like it's very reassuring in a way, but then sometimes I'm like, wait, hold on. 390 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:23,760 Maybe I'm just like completely disconnected to how bad, like maybe I'm more of a mess 391 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:28,720 than I'm, I'm acknowledging, but no, I think it's just reassuring to realize that, okay, 392 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,720 like you just need some, you don't need someone who's perfect. 393 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:37,880 You just need someone who fits your type of like weird or you're, I don't like the word 394 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:42,560 crazy, but like someone who fits your like oddness, you know? 395 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,320 Uniqueness, how about we say? 396 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:45,400 Yeah, yeah. 397 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:46,400 I use that word. 398 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:47,400 Yeah. 399 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:48,400 I like uniqueness. 400 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,400 I like uniqueness. 401 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:56,800 Is being in a long-term partnered relationship something that you're looking for and that 402 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,640 you want in your life? 403 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:06,440 I think there's, I mean, I think there are things that I'm still not sure about. 404 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:15,960 Like what, you know, I, it's sometimes it's hard to envision my life partner or something 405 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:20,600 like, like it's hard for me to envision what they would, you know, like it's just, it's 406 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,200 sometimes a little hard for me to like imagine what they would look like or what they would 407 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:25,200 be like. 408 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,600 Like it's just, it's hard for lots of reasons. 409 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:33,920 Sometimes that's like a little challenging for me to conceptualize. 410 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:39,560 So sometimes I feel like, well, maybe, you know, maybe not everyone is supposed to be, 411 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:45,600 not, maybe not everyone should get married, you know, like maybe not everyone should be 412 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,860 doing those things and having, like maybe not everyone should be doing those things 413 00:26:48,860 --> 00:26:53,600 like getting married and having kids, like maybe that's not, like maybe that's not for 414 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:54,600 all of us. 415 00:26:54,600 --> 00:27:01,160 And then that, that means like thinking about, okay, what, what would it mean? 416 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:08,120 I think maybe that's where I'm at now is thinking about what it would mean if I wasn't to go 417 00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:09,120 down that path. 418 00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:10,120 Like what did it mean? 419 00:27:10,120 --> 00:27:14,420 Would it, it would mean like more weddings where, you know, I would go solo or I'd go 420 00:27:14,420 --> 00:27:17,960 with a friend or, you know. 421 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:22,320 Which would mean like being an aunt as my friends have children. 422 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,360 But what would it mean? 423 00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:30,160 Because I think that also as a woman, especially if you decide to have children, there's certain 424 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,980 trade-offs that you make, right? 425 00:27:32,980 --> 00:27:36,920 And so that for me is like, that for me does make me a little bit nervous because I feel 426 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:42,800 like I'm kind of, I have like this window of a couple of years when I have to decide 427 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,800 if I want kids or not. 428 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,800 And I ideally wouldn't want to be doing it alone. 429 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:53,680 Like I would want to have a partner, but then, you know, like, so then there's like the thought 430 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:58,560 process, like, okay, if I want to have kids, what would I need in order to like set things 431 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,880 in place to have children financially, but also like in terms of community. 432 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:07,080 But then the flip side of it is, so what if I don't decide to have kids? 433 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,040 What if I, what if I just don't decide like, this is the life that I want to live? 434 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,980 Like how am I going to give my life meaning? 435 00:28:13,980 --> 00:28:18,200 And I just, I think maybe that's also a shift that has happened as I've seen my friends 436 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:23,920 take that path is now I'm asking myself that question in a more like intentional way. 437 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:25,400 And it's so scary, right? 438 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,920 Cause I feel like this is, I don't know. 439 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:34,160 It's scary to kind of have to think about like, how do I give my life purpose and meaning 440 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,600 when there's this other way that other people are on me are giving their life purpose and 441 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:39,600 meaning. 442 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,480 And I feel like also like I've, I've never been the person who would like plan for my 443 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,640 future, but I also, I'm not, I think the people were very clear on like their child's free 444 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:48,640 by choice. 445 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,240 They don't, you know, they get people who are very clear on like, that's who they are. 446 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:58,080 And like, that's who, you know, so I feel like I'm neither one of these, I'm not in 447 00:28:58,080 --> 00:28:59,080 either of these camps. 448 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:05,320 I'm just kind of in the middle of living my life and, you know, trying to, so I don't, 449 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,680 I don't know. 450 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:13,080 And it's, I would be interesting if like we spoke a year or two from now and maybe I'd 451 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,160 have a very different perspective. 452 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,480 Do you have a next date planned with anyone? 453 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,040 I don't have a date planned. 454 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:26,760 There is someone that I was talking to and we, we like vaguely agreed to hang out when 455 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:28,640 I got back to Nairobi. 456 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:33,840 I also, I'm, I also vaguely planned to hang out with my ex when we get back to Nairobi. 457 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,160 So I don't know, man. 458 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:39,160 So who knows? 459 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,680 No, I don't have a next date planned yet. 460 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:49,320 And the last question, do you have any advice or words of wisdom that you want to leave 461 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,320 other listeners with who are dating? 462 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,520 Yeah, that's a good one. 463 00:29:53,520 --> 00:30:00,560 Oh, I'm, oh, I feel like, I guess I think something that's been really reaffirming for 464 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:09,080 me or something that's been really affirming to me as I, as I grow older, so is just kind 465 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:14,720 of listening to your gut and, and it's, it's, it's one of those things that's tough, right? 466 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:19,440 Because I'm, I'm, I'm always like asking like, what's the difference between like just my 467 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:25,080 anxiety where sometimes I'm wrong and I'm just kind of like projecting my own fears 468 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:31,120 into a situation versus actually this person puts me ill at ease and I don't feel right 469 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:35,520 about like, you know, and what the distinction is between the two of them. 470 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:41,520 And it's so funny because like, I cannot put it in words, but I feel like you kind of know, 471 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,120 I think there's always like a deep sense of knowing and maybe that's what you were alluding 472 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:49,040 to when you said that usually within the first date, you have a sense of like, is this, is 473 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:50,040 there something here? 474 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:51,040 Is there not? 475 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:52,040 I do think that we tend to know. 476 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:56,920 And I think we know when, like we know in all the fronts, right? 477 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,320 Like we know, is this someone who's good for me? 478 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,720 Is this someone who's like, is there an attraction here? 479 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,080 Am I interested in this person? 480 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,960 Are they like genuinely, you know, like I feel like there are things that we kind of 481 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:13,360 know, but maybe we overlook because we're trying to like stay open. 482 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:19,400 So, and I think on the flip side of that, I think there are times when personally I 483 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:27,600 have maybe ignored my gut and like, and kind of just like reasoned my way out of like what 484 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:32,920 I feel or what I'm noticing about myself. 485 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:38,960 So I feel like that's probably the, and I don't even know if I'd give this as advice 486 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,600 to your readers, cause I, your listeners, cause I'm guessing some of them already know 487 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:43,600 to do this. 488 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,400 So maybe it's advice to a younger version of myself or anyone who's kind of like, feels 489 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,920 like they have resonance with some of the things that I'm saying is like the importance 490 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:57,880 of checking in with yourself and of taking things slow. 491 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:04,440 And if someone is the right person for you, like I don't think that they're going to 492 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,760 disappear or stop being the right person for you tomorrow or in a week from now. 493 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,640 So kind of like honoring that if it doesn't work out, like that's, that's okay. 494 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:21,600 And that's like part of the journey. 495 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,320 Dating Log is recorded and hosted by me, Wyndham Juneau. 496 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,560 It is produced by Harry Dark. 497 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,400 Our artwork is in collaboration with Esme Hemming Studio. 498 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,320 You can follow us on Instagram at datinglogpodcast. 499 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,040 Our website is datinglogpodcast.com. 500 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:40,040 Check it out. 501 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:41,040 We've just updated it. 502 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,840 If you'd like to send us a message, you can slide into our Instagram DMS or send us an 503 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:50,640 email at datinglogpodcast.gmail.com. 504 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,260 Please like and subscribe wherever you listen. 505 00:32:53,260 --> 00:32:57,880 And if you're enjoying the episode so far, leave a review and tell a friend. 506 00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:59,440 We'll see you in a fortnight. 507 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:29,400 Please don't ghost us.