Welcome to Dating Log, the podcast that records the ups and downs of dating in your 30s.
I'm your host, Wyndham Juneau, and this is episode 6, Making Friends and Dating Trends.
A quick note before we start, this is the halfway point of the season.
Thanks to everyone for your reviews and your feedback, for sharing the podcast and for
writing in.
It helps we hear you, and we're super excited to say that we've got another 6 episodes coming
your way.
Now, my next guest is someone I met last year.
Since dating is usually the main topic of our conversations, I asked him to come on
the show, and he said yes.
Umberto is a passionate Italian man, super intelligent, with lots of observations and
opinions.
We talk about how we use the dating apps, the levels of bad dates, what's going on
in the dating world, and why we think that.
Here he is.
So, my name is Umberto.
I'm Italian.
I'm 38 years old.
I'm straight.
And what was the last question about?
Like which dating apps or services or how are you dating?
I tried a little bit of everything, I would say.
Now I'm using Tinder and sometimes Field.
Can you define what does dating mean to you?
I would say that I'm pretty easy with dating because I'm a very social person.
I'm a very curious person.
So for me, dating is just meeting new people, in my specific case, ladies, and then just
having a nice talk and just to explore the vibe and to learn something from someone.
And I started dating because I was in a long relationship with a lady that I had a very
nice relationship with for six years.
And then suddenly at a certain point we broke up.
And I realized that for the first time in my life, I didn't have a lot of friends outside
of her friends because I moved from another country to where I live now for her.
And somehow out of love, everything was super nice.
I didn't make a lot of personal friends.
And then when we broke up, all the friends said, okay, we would like to stay in touch
with you, but I wanted to make it easier.
I said, okay, let's break up as friends as well.
But then as a result, I was like, fuck, I don't know, I know three or four people.
And it was super different from all the other experiences I had in other countries.
So I said, you know what, I take the dating apps and just meet, just to meet people and
whatever.
And let's see.
Have you made friends from dating?
Actually yes.
I made my two best friends in this country through actually through Tinder.
Really?
Yes.
I have amazing ladies.
I love them.
I really, really love them.
But somehow we became friends and we are very close friends.
So yeah, I'm very, actually I'm very happy that I used the chat to meet them.
Did you intend to, because you said, so you broke up and you were kind of using the apps
to meet people, reusing them more with the intention of finding friends or dating or
some like, how did this come about?
So of course, immediately after the breakup, I was not necessarily interested in dating
from a romantic point of view, but I wanted to meet people.
And then I, for example, I think the first app I downloaded was Bumble.
And Bumble, I don't know if it's also now, but at the time I had the chance to meet also
friends, Bumble for friends.
Yeah, BFF.
And I was like swiping on guys and these guys were so lame.
Honestly, I was like, wow, I mean, honestly, I don't want to meet these people.
And then I said, okay, let's go on the female side.
And then, yeah, and I started, started meeting people.
And I remember that actually one of my two best friends here was my very first date after
my long relationship.
And then we had an amazing date, it was super fun, super fun.
And then I told her, I say, listen, I'm a little bit struggling now because I found
you super cool, but you are literally the first person that I'm meeting after six years
relationship.
And she told me, you know what, I mean, I totally understand.
I mean, I, when I started using the app, it was after my divorce and then, you know, just
do whatever you want.
I really like you as a person as well.
Just let's stay in contact.
Let's do nice stuff together.
And that's it.
No shit.
Yeah, it was very nice.
And now you're still friends.
Yes.
This is one of your two best friends now.
Exactly.
No shit.
And is she also dating currently?
I think so.
Yes.
So, okay, you had a long relationship, broke up, made some friends.
Have you been using the apps to look for romantic dates as well?
When I was dating, since I was really open to everything, I thought if I find an amazing
person and become the friend is fine.
If I find the love of my life is fine.
If I find just a super strong sexual connection, it's fine.
Everything was fine, to be honest.
So of course I was very open to meet ladies and I always said the same.
It's like literally, I mean, this is my goal.
It's basically whatever.
And then if I match and if I click with a person, I'm open for everything that feels
natural.
So I had really a lot of dates and then some of them were just one time we met, nice chat
and that's it.
But I would say that what I really liked and maybe because I'm a social person is that
from every date I learn something.
So you always hear the story of a person and there are pieces that you can relate to and
others that are completely different from you.
And no matter what, you learn something and the really worst case scenario for me was
like, let's, you know, maybe after one hour you say thank you, you pay the bill, you say
bye bye and that's it.
But this is really the worst that can happen or at least what I thought could have been
the worst.
You're not.
Hold on.
What is the worst that can happen on a date?
Well, there are a lot of options I discovered.
Let's start with the worst case scenario, level zero.
You just don't match.
You meet in person, you have some expectations, maybe you chat a lot, you have a nice vibe
in the chat and then you say, okay, let's meet.
And then just in person, there is something that goes wrong.
So for me, it was never in terms of catfishing or something like this.
You've never been catfished?
No.
I have a caveat on this because I swipe on ladies and ladies really like to use filters
most of the time.
So every time I see pictures, I always assume that the person doesn't look exactly like
in the pictures because, you know, if you have so many filters, you can transform yourself.
So I have a very low expectation from an aesthetic point of view and of course, that's why for
ladies as they like.
When I meet, I am always prepared for the worst.
And as a result, actually, I was never disappointed because then we have a little bit, let's call
it level one.
The level one for me is that you meet the person and then you end up in situations that
you don't necessarily feel comfortable with.
I'm not talking about sexual experiences, et cetera.
I'm talking about in general experiences.
Sometimes there are people that are reacting very emotionally to something that happens.
Sometimes you cannot communicate properly and then you don't know the vibe.
You don't feel the vibe.
And then for me, it's a little bit problematic because I think I'm quite empathetic as a
person.
I perceive usually quite well the vibe of a person.
Sometimes I was totally clueless and maybe in order to unlock the situation, I tried
to give some inputs in any direction.
When I didn't perceive the meaning of their input, I was totally confused.
So sometimes I came back home thinking, okay, definitely she didn't like me or she was bored
or whatever.
And maybe I received a message like, well, it was great.
I want to see you again.
But that is my risk level one, is not perceiving the person.
You don't understand what's going on.
So this is a...
How many levels are there?
I would say that the next one is a traumatic experience.
Let's say that something goes completely wrong.
Oh, okay.
I was thinking that like, okay, so level two traumatic, what does that entail?
Well, that one is if something happens that really changes your perspective of life or
dating, et cetera.
Have you had those?
Well, once I had a date with a lady who is obviously bipolar.
And yes, we ended up in a situation that I was a little bit confused slash scared.
And I came back home safely, et cetera.
But still was...
In a nutshell, that was a very, very short version of the story.
Yes, yes.
Is it something you feel comfortable sharing more about?
Maybe I can share with you...
I can share with you my very, very first date ever on Tinder.
Please.
That it happened really, I think, wow, it was even before the story I mentioned, the
long story.
So it was like maybe eight years ago, nine years ago, something like this.
And I went for this date.
I moved from Italy to somewhere else.
And then, and of course I was swiping and I just got to know Tinder through an Italian
guy that is this kind of stereotypically Italian guy that you see in the movies, you know,
like he wants to be the seducer, whatever.
So he downloaded basically all the apps in my phone and he told me, you know, you have
to meet more people, et cetera, et cetera.
Basically it was swiping, positively swiping on every human being possible.
So from a statistical point of view, of course, I had certain matches and one lady over there
told me, okay, let's go for a drink.
And then being an Italian guy for living at the time abroad for after a long while, I
felt very cool.
I felt, okay, I'm going to be the macho caliente Latino seducer, whatever, et cetera.
And then I went to this date and then we started drinking and I am not necessarily super good
in holding alcohol.
Let's say I cannot stand alcohol too much.
So we ended up with her being totally immune to alcohol and me completely tipsy, totally
tipsy.
And at the end of the night, in any case, it was a pleasant night.
And I say, okay, have a good night.
We had two kisses and the second kiss went a little bit on the lips.
And honestly, just like a, yes, exactly.
Exactly.
And then the second one was a little bit on the lips, but I didn't do it on purpose.
And she told me like, okay, I have to tell you something.
I'm a very religious girl and I don't do this kind of stuff.
And I was like, okay, this is a, okay, it's fine.
Sorry.
And by then I thought, okay, the way I read the situation is that she didn't like me or
not enough or something like this.
Okay.
Then I said, okay, it's fine.
The day after I just said, thank you.
Thank you for the pleasant evening.
That's it.
And then at 4 p.m. she rang at my intercom and she said, okay, I'm downstairs.
I want to see you the day after.
And I was totally confused.
So long story short, I offered her something to drink and then she literally jumped on
me, literally jumping on me.
What?
And I was like, okay, what do I do now?
I mean, I felt a little bit like the equivalent of a little girl in a strange situation.
And then at the very end I said, okay, you know what?
It's fine.
She's a nice looking lady.
I can go for it, whatever.
So she, after two minutes of, well, as you can imagine, nothing special because it's
two minutes, she looked at me in a very serious way.
And she told me like, okay, this is a sin.
And then I was like, okay, this is a little bit of a complicated situation.
I really thought maybe she has a knife.
She's going to stab me in the eye or something like this.
So I somehow was able to calm her down and well, long story short, then I ghosted her.
It's a little bit longer the story, but this is the short version.
Have you had more experiences where women are like, actually I'm religious?
Yeah, yes.
But I would say that, and I don't want to generalize because everybody is on way, but
I would say that people that are, what I experienced is that people that are really following
too many rules that could be religious, could be whatever political, maybe the way you eat,
whatever you do in life, people that are very strict on certain rules, somehow they have
also the opposite effects.
Sometimes they get completely wild on the other side, let's say.
And then that's the reason why I'm always fascinated by people that are living on the
extremes of these preferences in life.
Are you dating anyone consistently?
And why or why not?
So at the moment, not.
And the reason is, well, there are several reasons why people do or do not engage in
a little bit more stable relationships.
I would say that I, being a very curious person, I tried several options, also options that
normally are not in my nature or not in my preference, but I thought, okay, you know
what, let's explore.
So for me, dating is also a little bit almost a sociological research.
Well recently I thought that I would have preferred to find a partner.
There is a little bit of a, in my point of view, a co-pilot of your life.
So somebody there is a little bit of your body that you can rely on, you know, because
sometimes it's also nice to create some, I would say some rhythm or some routine in your
life.
And these routines can also entail relationships routine.
Well in 2023, since now we are in 2023, I find that everybody's fascinated about concepts
like open relationships, situationships, whatever ships, et cetera.
And we are more and more scared to take positions and not only relationships.
So if you see, for example, also is less and less common for people to take clear position
on stuff, you know, if you like, let's talk about food.
If you like meat, it's very rare that somebody will tell you openly, okay, I like meat, you
know.
Everybody's like, yeah, it depends.
Maybe I like meat only on Friday, only if the meat comes from whatever the farm, et
cetera, or if we talk about politics, it's more difficult that somebody will say, yes,
I'm from left or right, et cetera.
I am from, I'm liberal, but depending on Friday, I do this or this or that, you know.
So and I think this is like something that reflects also in relationships.
So people are more, I wouldn't say afraid, but more curious or incentivized to keep everything
in the middle, to keep every door open.
And this is, it is what it is, for me, it's not necessarily right or wrong, but also creates
a higher level of entropy.
And then these create a little bit more uncertainty in our life.
So if you have uncertainty in your work, that is what is happening right now in general.
If you have uncertainty in your relationship, if you have uncertainty in your sport, that
you cannot commit even to do, you know, a three month, three month agreement with the
gym.
So I think that this level of entropy is making our life a little bit more complicated to
handle.
And this is what I also observed in dating.
The ladies I met, they were like, okay, for example, for the one that liked me, he said,
okay, I really like you, but I come out from a long relationship with her, so I want to
explore, which is super fine.
Or yes, I like it, but I want to have an open relationship, which is still fine.
Or yes, I like it, but I want just to meet a lot of people and discover myself, which
is fine.
But I find almost that a monogamy is becoming like the exception.
And I like diversity, as somehow monogamy is becoming more and more sexy for me.
What is the, let's say what type of people are you dating and what is the age range that
you're dating in?
This is a very, very interesting one.
At least I find it interesting because I grew up being more interested in older ladies than
me because I always found a person with more experience, more interesting to listen to
because they have just a richer life to talk about, you know, a better experience.
And then of course I grew up, now I'm 38, so older ladies, I mean, also come with some
technical issues.
So if one day, for example, I want to have kids and if I date a 50 years old lady, of
course there is no chances or very few chances, let's say.
So I decided to open myself to younger ladies.
There was a little bit something exotic in it.
And then one day I decided, you know what, let's not put any limit, let's say, and then
let's see where do I match, et cetera.
I still don't prefer necessarily very younger ladies, you know, ladies that are much younger
than me.
But then for one specific experience or trial, the same week, the same week I went for two
dates, one with a lady who is 25.
Yeah.
And then when we were at the date, she told me actually I lied, I'm 21.
And I was like, no, why would she lie?
She's 21.
I don't have a clue.
And I was like, okay, you know what, let's go for the date, you know, whatever.
And then the same week I went for a date with a lady who was 55.
Okay.
So about the same direction in either way.
Yes.
And I was like, yeah, let's go for it.
Let's try.
And in both cases, it was not a match for other reasons, not the age.
But I would say I'm quite open.
But if I have to imagine a more realistic preference that I have, since I'm 38, I would
say, well, I never thought about that.
Let me be a little bit analytical now.
I think maybe the lower part would be 30 maybe, and the upper part would be maybe my age.
Because now if I, let's imagine that I have an amazing match and let's imagine that I
get very inspired to have kids, et cetera.
If I meet a person that is older, it's a little bit more complicated.
What is your distance radius?
How far are you willing to travel for dates?
Okay, this is a funny one.
I think I'm quite lazy, to be honest.
So again, at the beginning of my exploration, I had no problems dating people from 100 kilometers
away, something like this.
I changed quite radically because I think that this is related to what I prefer because
I prefer a little bit to establish emotional connection with people and to have something
to...
I like to meet people to do something nice together, even if it's not for a real, real
relationship.
But I still like to create an emotional connection.
And if you date someone that is one, two hours away from you, it's very difficult to make
it spontaneous and natural.
There is never the moment in which you say, you know what, I just came back from the gym,
I don't know, and should we just have a walk or have a drink or whatever?
And I don't prefer this kind of planning attitude of we're going to meet in three weeks or in
one week time or 10 days.
And then if you are so distant, it's also affecting these decisions.
So what is it now?
I think now it's like maybe 20 kilometers, something like this.
Much closer.
Yes, much closer.
I'm the same way.
I don't want to go that far.
Yeah?
You don't want to take the train to visit...
Come on, it's a lot of work and energy.
And like you said, at the end of a work day, you can't really be spontaneous.
If you need to go, let's say realistically, if they live an hour away, that's an hour
and a half door to door.
Plus, should you pack an overnight bag?
Is that weird?
Yeah, I don't know.
And also, I think that these are decisions that you take based on experiences that you
had in life, right?
Because I had some long distance relationships with amazing ladies.
And then what I learned, and again, this is my experience, maybe other people had completely
different experiences, that when you're in a long distance relationship, you have two
parallel lives, let's say.
One is the one with your partner in which you see each other, let's imagine, once a
month for a few days.
And then you do in a few days everything you didn't do for the entire month.
So of course, that experience is amazing.
You do everything super cool, big emotions, everything is amazing.
And then for the other three weeks, in my specific case, you just go back to your normal
life.
You have different rhythms, you have people that you meet to cover the same needs that
you normally have in a relationship.
Maybe you have one friend you go to the cinema with, another friend you do sports with, another
friend you watch the movies with.
And basically you take surrogates of your relationship during the entire period that
you don't see each other.
And then again, you see each other is amazing.
But then at a certain point in life, you reunite, right?
So when you're at the moment in which you reunite, you are just living a different life.
There is not your life by yourself with the surrogates, it's not your life with your partner,
there is the amazing, super exciting life, but it's a new life.
So it doesn't mean necessarily that that new life is compatible for you the same way it
was during the long distance relationship.
And that's the reason why I learned I don't want it.
Okay.
Being that we live in a big city, so I was on Tinder for a hot second, right?
And I also found this, but I'm curious, what is your experience?
Is it filled with only visitors?
Or are there actual real people who live here on Tinder as well?
On Tinder?
Yeah.
Well, I would say that I tried a little bit of all the apps and I don't find any difference
in the apps, to be honest.
For me, in every app, people tend to mirror your behavior.
If you're behaving a little bit serious, they somehow behave serious.
If you behave like a turbo slut, of course, also in that case, they...
Really?
But this is my experience.
I'm not saying that it is like this, but it is what I experienced.
So yeah, I mean, on Tinder, I would say that I see any kind of people.
So people that are looking for a one-night stands, people that are looking for serious
relationships, tourists, and yeah, you just read the bio and that's it.
What does your dating profile look like?
It's very honest.
It's very transparent, to be honest.
I put some pictures of myself in...
Of course, you try to put the cool looking pictures, but pictures that are representing
what I do.
And then, for example, I am a person who likes to wear shirts, so I have a picture in shirt.
I like to do very unusual activities.
So for example, I have one in which I was doing cow cuddling.
So basically, they teach you go to a farm and they teach you how to behave with cows
in a way that you count them, et cetera.
So I have this kind of farmer look like a picture that my gay friends say that looks
like the beginning of a gay porn movie.
And I think I have one a little bit with extreme sports because I like to do extreme sports.
And then in my description, there is...well, I don't remember what it is, but it's something
very normal like, you know, I'm Italian, I like to do this, a little bit of jokes because
I like to make jokes, and something like, yeah, we vibe if you are also spontaneous,
energetic, happy, like me.
And that's it, honestly.
And then most of the time, there is a call to action, like, okay, if you just want to
have a nice chat, et cetera, just being me and let's meet for a coffee or whatever.
Yeah.
It's very honest and transparent.
Honest and clear.
Yeah.
Yeah, like what you're looking for.
I want to circle back because you mentioned that finding monogamy nowadays is exotic.
Is there a difference in the ages, because you're dating now younger and older, do you
find that one generation or one group of people is more likely to lean towards one, like,
let's say the monogamous into the spectrum to the completely polyamorous into the spectrum?
It sounds a little bit of a statistical, sociological question.
Yeah.
Well, you are doing this sociological research.
I'm not sure that I have thousands of examples.
No, but in your experience.
In my experience, I think it's a matter of phases in life.
So what I observe is that there are people that are freshly, how to put, so for financial
reasons, at least in this country, there are incentives for young couples to live together.
And then there are a lot of young couples that start living together and then they do
crazy stuff and they do party.
And then after a few years, they say, okay, let's have a kid or let's get married, et
cetera, et cetera.
Yeah.
After this phase, what I observe, because now we are surrounded by a lot of input, so
something that the generations before us didn't have.
My grandparents, I mean, most probably had two options or three options to get married
to, right?
And then that's it.
Nowadays, either you are in a couple, not in a couple, et cetera, you have so many input
from the society.
So after this moment of getting married, having kids or whatever it is, et cetera, then there
are people that just break up.
This can happen at whatever age.
I met this situation for people that were maybe 28 years old and others that were like
almost 40 years old.
So I wouldn't associate it to the age itself, but the phase of life they are going through.
Yeah.
Having so much choice, like you said, your grandparents had like three choices, right?
Yeah.
And even our parents, I think.
Yeah, exactly.
They had fewer choices.
And now there's always swipes waiting and there's always someone out there and there's
always someone passing through.
And this is the paradox of choice.
True.
And if you put it even more analytical, so think about we are now how many?
Eight billion people in the planet?
Oh my God, if we cross the A line?
I don't know.
I'm going to check, but let's imagine it is eight billion.
So statistically speaking, there are chances of making a very good match.
So that are very high, even if it's a 0.000 or whatever percent, it means that maybe you
have in the world 250,000 amazing match.
So this is the reality.
And this is also what is making confusing.
We have so many choices.
Yeah.
And this is why I was saying at the very beginning that I find exotic almost to say, okay, let's
go for one.
Let's see how it goes.
I'm not saying that I am great in doing this because I'm still single, but I find it very
interesting.
Given that you are 38, what is the relationship status of the people around you?
And how do you feel about that?
How do you fit in?
Are you not fit in?
Well, I think that I have a lot of divorced friends.
I have some friends that are in long-term relationships or married, et cetera.
Yeah.
And then I would say that there is not a normal.
Let's say there is not an average.
I would say that on average people that I know around me, and maybe because I'm not
a representative of a specific sample because I am an expert, I am living in a big city,
I have what here they would call a sort of high level of education, and then I'm not
a representative of the average person of this country.
So maybe I'm just representing a minority, but what I see around me is indeed people
that are divorced and going through slutty faces maybe now, or already going in the second
after a slutty face in a more serious relationship again.
I don't know, maybe I don't have a very smart answer, but-
No, no, no.
I'm asking how you feel about that.
I feel fine.
When I was in the long-term relationship, I wanted to get married.
I wanted to have kids.
Yeah.
And I was very happy about this.
And then I became single again and never met anyone that gave me this feeling again.
So in the future, yes, I would like to have kids, but you really, you cannot make it randomly,
right?
You have to find a good match.
I think in my perspective, the kids should be the product of love between two people.
And then if I don't have it, I'm fine not to have kids.
What are you looking for in a partner?
Are you looking for a long-term partner?
Answer that question.
I would like it.
Yes.
I would like, I like the concept.
Yeah.
It's, I don't know.
This is a very, very strange question.
I know.
It's a handy question.
I don't have a list.
I don't have a list of the-
You don't?
No, actually no.
As a fellow Virgo, you don't have a list of what you're looking for.
Well, to be honest, being a Virgo, my list is.
So no, I tend to fall in love for sweet ladies because I like to be a little bit of a sweet
person as well.
At the same time, I like to fall for ladies that have the courage to take initiative and
to bring their own life where they want.
So I really like the concept of balance, that a person doesn't need me, but she chooses
me as a sort of partner in crime.
So I like independent, sweet ladies.
Yeah.
And I would say a little bit funny because I really like to make a lot of jokes.
And I would say, Marius, that's it.
Okay.
What do you find the most enjoyable about dating?
Listening to a beautiful story.
If somebody can tell me a beautiful story of their life, no matter what, I'm happy.
I'm just happy.
Yeah, but it's the reality, right?
You hear something new, you learn from the eyes and the experience of somebody else about
a part of the world that maybe you didn't experience.
The opposite end of that question.
What do you find the most frustrating about dating?
I think that it's frustrating the fact that we have, how to put it, I think there is a
low threshold in getting to know people.
And we have so many options that basically people become a little bit assets in the app.
So when you're talking to Mr. or Miss or whatever is the name, it's just an asset.
You ask always the same questions at the beginning, et cetera.
You have the list of the people that you are talking to and they don't become important
up to the moment in which you meet them in person.
So sometimes it's very easy to disconnect from people or to just go to the people, et
cetera.
But since we are hiding behind the screen, it's easier to become impolite or behave in
a way that we normally wouldn't do in the real life.
It is a little bit frustrating.
And I try to be always polite or if I want to disconnect, I write down, say, hey, listen,
you know, we didn't talk.
I would like to meet if this is not possible, it's better to disconnect.
What do you think?
Something like this.
And I try to do it.
But of course, I don't do always like this.
But I met also or I met with people that were really impolite, really impolite.
And I thought, wow, I cannot imagine that these people would behave in the same way
in the real life.
And this is what's frustrating.
People that have a different way to be themselves just because they are hidden behind a screen.
OK.
When is your next date?
Well, this weekend.
This weekend?
And what are you going to do?
I think I'm going to do something unusual, as usual.
So I was thinking about I bought all the frame and all the canvas and I would like to make
a paint.
Anything could be nice to restructure the frame and to paint something together.
And maybe it's shit.
I'm going to throw it away.
Maybe it's nice.
I'm going to keep it.
The last question, do you have any advice for people who are dating in their 30s?
Yes, it sounds pretty easy.
Be very transparent in your communication, because honesty and transparency, I learned
that is always always brings something positive.
And yeah, just be yourself.
Right.
I mean, at the end, what you want is to match with a person that likes you for the way you
are.
So don't try to be just different than what you are.
Just be yourself and be transparent.
And that's it.
Dating Log is recorded and hosted by me, Wyndon Juneau.
It is produced by Harry Dark.
Our artwork is in collaboration with Esme Heming Studio.
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Our website is datinglogpodcast.com.
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