Welcome to Dating Log, the podcast that records the ups and downs of dating in your 30s.
I'm your host, Wyndham Juneau.
This is episode four, trying on sweaters.
I spoke with Sam right after he got off the phone with someone he had been seeing for
two weeks.
As a result, this conversation is fresh and raw.
It's also an episode where we get more into the downs of dating.
And I think there's parts in here that everyone can relate to.
Here's Sam.
My name is Sam.
I'm 39 years old.
I live in Amsterdam.
I like females.
It's a bummer that I don't like men because that's like 50% of the world population I
can't touch, but I just have zero interest.
I'm successful on Bumble because that's where all the women are that want to be mothers
for some reason.
I suspecting that that's what I attract.
I'm not sure I want to.
I go to these stints that I just, I'm a bit more active in just approaching people or
just in the street or wherever, but I don't always feel like it.
You just go up to people on streets?
Yes.
Sometimes when you see somebody nice, you just try to strike up a conversation.
It's been going wrong and right.
Many options.
It depends, but it's been a while.
When is the last time you went up to someone on the street and just hit them up?
I think that was last summer.
See, that's a while ago.
But I mean, I like to be a wise ass on the street and some people like that and then
they start just chatting along.
Can you give me an example?
Playful comments.
Let's put it that way.
For instance, a while back I bought some Ben & Jerry's and then I saw it was two for the
price of one and I was like, I don't want two Ben & Jerry's.
And then there was a lady right in front of me that picked one and I was like, hey, we
should make a deal.
And then we went to the register together and we shared phone numbers and tickies.
And sometimes, usually it's with random people, but it could be somebody I was interested
in, but not that time.
But you never know.
It's just nice to be a bit assertive and play around a bit, I think.
I like that.
That is a fresh approach to meeting people in the grocery store.
Well you don't think about it too much.
It's just, yeah.
But it depends on how I feel.
Okay.
How are you feeling right now?
Like if I said, tell me about how you're feeling about dating at this moment, what would you
say?
Well, I just had a lovely and rare experience where I met a lady four times in two weeks,
I think mostly on dating apps.
It's either nothing or one date and I'm like, blah.
So that was wonderful.
And if it were up to me, we wouldn't stop.
But she decided to not want to continue.
Yeah.
So this morning I was a little sad and I actually had just, I just got off a call with her because
I was like, hey, can we just have a little bit of a conversation because I saw you four
times and I'm curious to how you experience stuff.
So we just had a phone call just right before I'm talking to you now.
So yeah, I'm sort of happy that I experienced some niceness with somebody and I'm sort of
sad that it's not going on.
Also I had my doubts and she did as well.
But yeah, it was nice.
Why did she want to break it off after four dates?
Well, we had a very awkward date yesterday.
Yeah, I don't know.
When I was on the phone, I was like, do I want to get into the details?
And then I didn't.
And we had like a nice conversation of like, I hope you're okay and chatted a bit, but
we didn't go into details.
But now I feel like I do want to go into details.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter because she doesn't want to hang out anymore and it's
best to just move on.
How old was she?
36.
And is it someone who's like looking to settle and go for it now?
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah, that was pretty good.
Why?
What are you laughing about?
Well, I'm curious because four dates in two weeks.
Yeah, four dates in two weeks is a pretty intense and a lot of dates in this day and
age where like you said, you go on one date or people just ghost after you exchange two
lines of text or whatever or exchange numbers and they just never answer.
Yeah, I said it was pretty rare what we achieved here.
She agreed.
So, okay, I'll just do a quick summary of the four of them.
Does that make sense?
Or do you have something else in mind?
Let's do that.
Let me think.
Okay, so we matched on one of the apps.
Bumble, of course, and chatting and then she came with a voice note.
Usually I do that the first one because I want to hear somebody's voice because I think
that can save you a lot of time.
So sooner or later, I throw in a voice note and I sort of ask the person to do the same
or just like invite them to do the same.
But this time she did a voice note already and I was like, oh, I like this.
And then she went on a holiday to Portugal for a week and I think we chatted every other
day, shared voice notes.
And I could feel that the conversation just was sustaining itself.
It gave me energy.
So I was like, okay, this is nice.
And usually when I used to, in the past, I used to go on dates where I wasn't sure and
I think I sort of stopped doing that.
Sometimes I still do, but sometimes I'm like, okay, I really have to look forward to it.
Because usually it's useless anyway.
So this one I was looking forward to and then what I was also happy about, so she said,
can we meet Friday?
And I was like, well, it's Sunday now.
Why don't we meet Monday?
And then she said, well, Monday I have to pick up a bunch of stuff because I ordered
stuff online secondhand and I have to go to all these houses in Amsterdam to pick it up.
And I was like, well, great, I'll just join you.
I'll jump in the car, bring some snacks and we're going to pick up your new secondhand
stuff.
And I like to be, I think it's fun, random, you just join.
And also on a first date, I think it's a lot about the nonverbal stuff, especially that
I already knew that we could have a nice conversation through the voice apps.
So I think it's nice to have something to do instead of like sitting across each other
and just looking at one another.
So that was fun.
And then for the second date, we went swimming on a Sunday morning.
We just had like two hours because I had some other stuff planned.
That was very relaxing and soothing and lovely.
And I also told her.
And then for the third date, the third date I made some food in my house and we had a
lovely evening.
There was no like, the clothes stayed on because it's nice to be patient, but it was wonderful,
intimate, the touching, it was just very gentle and I really much, I very much enjoyed that.
And then we went on our fourth date and that was just a bit of an unfortunate, shitty situation.
So I was like, I invited her to bike over to North of Amsterdam.
You have these lakes.
So I was like, let's just go to a lake and spend the afternoon there and maybe go for
a swim or whatever.
So we bike to the lake and then everything was still nice.
And then we got to the lake and we needed a spot.
And I wanted this, I was, I usually, I went to the like basic beach and she didn't like
that.
So we kept looking for some like secluded spots, but we couldn't find one.
And after, and then she saw the spot she really liked.
This is so dumb.
And then she was like, I really want to be here.
And I was like, really?
This looks horrible to me.
I'm like by the side of the road, I'm like by the side of the road between the water
and I didn't feel at ease at that spot, but it was like, yeah, we've already been looking
for 30 minutes.
So fuck it.
Let's just go here.
So I, we laid down, she went for a swim, but I was, I could not find peace.
Peace there at that spot.
And then to make matters worse, suddenly they were hauling over canoes like right in front
of us because it was the place, it was a spot where the canoes canoes get into the water.
So I was like, I really don't want to be here.
And then I, and then I have to be honest.
I made some, I was a bit cranky.
I was like, why, why are we here?
What is up with this?
And then what is up with this spot?
And she noticed like what's going on?
It's like, yeah, what's going on in your head?
You seem like restless.
Like, yeah, it's not really my spot.
And then I, and then I made a bit of a snatchy comment, which was ugly and I shouldn't have
done that, but I apologized for it later on.
And then after a while I was like, okay, I really can't be here anymore.
After like, and then we went to a new spot, which was like an open field and way more
relaxed and we, we hung out there for a bit more.
And then I felt at ease and she felt at ease and, and then we bike back and on the, on
the bike back, I could feel like something switched or something.
She was like, I was like, okay, she's not engaging with me anymore.
So then I had like, okay, this, this was a, this was a very unfortunate, terrible date.
And then I got home and I was a little bummed out and I sent her a message.
Like, I hope you had an okay day.
Maybe you should like not go swimming anymore because we apparently suck at it.
And then I went to bed, fell asleep, woke up at four, looked at my phone and I had like
a one minute message and I, and it's, it's stupid.
Don't listen to messages in the middle of the night.
So I, she told, she told me like in the message it was like, yeah, yeah, I don't feel enough
of a connection to continue.
Uh, and I, I saw that coming, but then I didn't sleep anymore after I was like, what the fuck?
And I started like, I was already afraid that I fucked up the date.
Yeah.
But then, but then again, I mean, it's not, it's not like she was the most flexible person
with her super funky spot where she wanted to lay down.
So yeah, I guess it's a bit of both.
Whatever.
It's hard to figure out these things, but you, you'll get conflicts eventually in relationships.
So then you, I think the trick is to be able to talk about it because the conflicts will
arise.
So how do you communicate?
Um, so, and I think afterwards we can, you would communicate it fine.
So then I was like, yeah, can I give you a call later today?
Because, uh, you know, at least like we had four dates and we're like, let's just have
like a call.
And we had a nice call.
And then, um, I asked like, was it because of this weird date that we are, that we don't
want to continue?
And she was like, yeah, it was a bit of that.
And also a bit of like not seeing the match.
And she said, I don't know if I'm making the right decision, uh, but this is my decision
and dah, dah, dah, dah.
And then in the back of my mind, I was like, well, of course it's her decision.
And I was like, you know, I think we had fun.
We had out of four dates, we had three nice ones and one shitty one.
I think that's pretty good results.
In my mind.
I was like, yeah, I think I'm, I, I tried.
I'm not sure if I always do this, but I'm like, maybe better if, if there was some connection
and some intimacy and some fun, if you felt it, I think from my perspective, like rather
go like on one extra date until I really hate the person's face.
But I, but I, I don't, I do not understand with, with all respect to her.
I do not understand ending things, even though you felt something together and there was
no like huge drama.
But then again, I don't know.
I, another thing that might've happened is like, I think I'm not that keen on the hardcore
family stuff and maybe she is.
We did.
I almost, I, when somebody asks me on three date, if I want children, I'm like, why are
we talking about this?
And if somebody does ask that question, then I guess it's important to them.
But it's not that important to me.
So there was more stuff going on than why it might not have been a match combined with
like a shitty third, fourth date.
And I also had my doubts, but yeah, I would have loved to see her again.
And I don't know if we would have died in each other's arms, but yeah, this is my story.
Thank you for sharing the story.
Do you get asked that question a lot about families and parenting and kids?
Well the shitty, the shitty thing about Bumble is that it's right there.
People are like, want children, don't want children, don't want children.
Not sure.
And maybe that's not even shitty, but it's just like, if it's one of the, yeah, I don't
know what to think about it.
What does your profile say?
Have you answered that question?
I usually leave it out.
And I think the chance of me having children is small.
Children, I've never had this huge urge, but I don't know about the future.
Maybe you have something, maybe if you're with somebody, you suddenly see it.
I don't know.
But I've never been.
From the friends I have that have children, they've always been, they've really wanted
it at some point.
And I don't know that feeling.
Have you had any long-term partners?
Not really.
That's something that also bothers me a bit.
I'm like, I don't want to die without that experience.
Why does it bother you?
I think it could be beautiful, even though I bet it's hard work.
And I sometimes feel a bit sad for the opportunities I let slip because I was either ignorant,
clumsy, or unlucky or whatever.
But it's hard to, yeah, you try and then it happens or it doesn't.
How long has been your longest relationship been?
I'd say a year.
She was, she had, I was 21 years old back then, so it was a long time ago.
She broke...
That's a long time ago.
Yeah, yeah.
So it's like in the past 18, 19 years, I haven't had any thing that I would describe as a relationship.
Expect this lady in Los Angeles, but then I lived in the Netherlands and she lived in
Los Angeles.
So we, yeah, it was just for one year we had, we were very, we had a lot of online contact
and saw each other a few times, but it's just, it's very unworkable.
Have you been dating this entire time?
On and off, sometimes I put some more effort in than other times.
But the dumb thing that I notice is that when I'm sort of sick of the dating apps, I throw
them off my phone and sometimes that lasts for like a month or so.
And then I put them back on because I feel like then at least I'm doing something.
And maybe it's not something that's working, but it feels like, I mean, trying, which is
like a nasty thing.
I don't know if it actually helps, but at least you feel like you're making an effort.
You said apps plural, are using more than just Bumble?
Yeah, I've tried other ones, but usually, what did I try?
I've tried field.
What'd you think of that one?
I like the funky audience, but I'm not, I'm not, I'm not that queer or funky, whatever.
But I like the, I usually have an interest in people that have a sort of maybe a funky
lifestyle or like a different way of...
Funky lifestyle is good.
I like that.
Yeah, it looks like a free spirited type of, yeah, wanderer.
Okay, so Bumble, you tried field.
Have you tried anything else?
Yeah, Hinge.
But I feel like on Hinge, everybody looks like Kim Kardashian.
It's so smooth.
It's just too much.
Yeah, it's interesting how these dating apps have their own little culture and Hinge is,
it's so Instagram-y, I don't know.
What are you looking for when you're dating?
I look for wonderful moments of connection, even though I hate the fucking word connection,
but I guess that's the best way to call it.
And like gentleness, tenderness, affection, you don't even have to talk.
Sometimes you can just hug somebody and if that lasts for like one date, five dates,
50 dates, 50 years, whatever, but I'll take everything I can get.
Basically, okay, I'm exaggerating a little bit, but that's the, those are the beautiful
moments, right?
Why would you not?
Are you looking for a partner or are you like...
Yeah, I would like that.
I would like like a long-term somebody, yeah.
But in the meantime, if it's a two-month somebody, that's fine with me.
How many dates have you been on, let's say, in the last year?
The last year, not so many.
Like a handful, yeah, or maybe two handfuls, but like, yeah, not so many.
Like 10 different people, two handfuls?
Yeah, less, probably less than 10.
Because I, before I go on a date now, I'm just way more, I just want to feel like I'm
excited about it.
And in the past, I used to also go when I was like, okay, let's have a look, but I don't
do that, have a look at much anymore.
Why has that changed?
Well, it doesn't, usually it doesn't work.
Like, yeah, I think I can trust my feeling there of like, okay, let's just only do it
when you're at least a little bit excited about it.
How do you, it sounds like this is something that wasn't always so, right?
Can I assume, safely assume that it's changed in the last, how many years would you say?
Yeah, plenty.
Maybe 10, maybe 10, yeah.
In the beginning, sometimes it was like, yeah, let's just fucking meet up and we'll see.
Even though I exchanged like, well, this is like 10 years ago, maybe even you exchanged
a few words.
But now, now I think that's pretty dumb.
Okay, walk me through your match process.
You've selected someone based on your criteria and you match.
What happens?
Uh, well, chatting.
And if I, if I, if I experience some type of funniness that I'm like, oh, this is, this
makes me laugh a little bit, I usually, and it somehow feels a little smooth.
Or somebody's a little, a little, a bit savvy.
Savvy?
Yeah, yeah, savvy's good.
Yeah, I'm like, okay, they're sharp.
They're like a bit, a bit of irony, a bit like just making fun of each other.
Yeah, I just want to laugh.
In the beginning, I just want to laugh.
And then I go for a voice note and then if, and then if I like the voice, yeah, I'm happy
to meet up.
Maybe not like the voice, but when I feel energy, when I feel like, oh, this is, this
is, this gives me energy.
This is, this is moving forward organically.
I, I've had one, I've had one person do this to me.
No, one person actually kind of immediately sent a voice memo and I was a bit like, huh,
this is new, this is different.
That also helps.
It makes an impact.
It's like, who is this guy with this voice notes?
Who is this?
Who is this fucker?
But it, it made an impression on me.
Yeah, right.
And I've never thought to do that myself.
And if this is like your kind of go-to thing.
Yeah, I invented it.
You invented it.
No, I'm, I'm being a bit cheeky now.
Cheeky, cheeky is the right word.
I think I like it when a girl is a bit cheeky, when we can play with words and there's laughing.
That's cheeky, right?
Can you tell me what do you find the most enjoyable about dating?
I make this comparison usually is that I do like a new sweater that I enjoy and fits me
well, but I don't like shopping.
So you like trying new sweaters?
You have to to find like one that fits nice, right?
This is, yeah, this is my best.
And then as soon as you have one that fits right, then you're like, oh, this is nice.
But most of the time it doesn't fit.
Is that enjoyable for you trying new sweaters?
Is that the thing that's fun about dating?
No, not so much.
Okay.
No, it's a bit addictive.
These dating apps are, I experienced them as like an endless to do list.
And I, I'm a bit OCD like that.
I make lots of lists and then I want to get to the bottom of them because I want to have
everything done.
So for me, dating apps are very intrusive.
I also throw them off.
I think I probably am the person that has deleted and downloaded their dating apps most.
Sometimes I do that like three times in a day.
Really?
One day?
Because then I just want to get them away.
I'm like, okay, off my phone.
And then like six hours later, I download the app again, do some shit and then I delete
it again.
Yeah, it's very addictive.
It's hard for me to like stay away from it then.
Do you have the notifications on?
No.
No, that would be horrible.
I'm also like, I'm a zero inbox person, you know, I just, I'm just organized like that.
So a dating app is like endless inbox.
It's just, yeah, it's like there's always a new person to swipe.
Like, sometimes it says like you ran out of likes and then I'm like, yes.
Done for the day.
No more likes today.
Done for the day.
Thank you.
What kinds of things do you do on dates?
Usually it's just a walk, a walk or a bar.
I think a first date after you've just chatted with somebody and did some voice notes and
you feel like the conversation is happening.
I feel like a first date is not about talking, it's about feeling.
And therefore there's no need to talk.
So you can just like go on a run, you don't have to say anything and go home and then
be like, do I want to see this person again?
Because you already did, I'm exaggerating a little bit of course.
But yeah, the first date is about do I feel like I want to get closer to this person or
no.
Has anyone ever taken you on like a really great date?
No, but that's something you do, I think that's something you do when you already know that
you're at least into each other.
Otherwise, let's first figure that out.
And that doesn't, that's not hard.
You just have to like show up and look at each other.
Okay.
What is the best date you've ever been on?
Well that was somebody I didn't meet through a dating app.
But I met her at a lecture on capitalism.
That's where you go to get the hotties.
Yeah, that was the best date I've ever been on.
We met up in the park, then we tried to throw things we found in the park, in the park bin
that was like 50 meters away and that didn't work.
And we went into a restaurant and asked if they have steak.
And then they said yes.
And then we said no, thank you.
And then it was just really dumb.
It was like super random shit.
We ended up talking to a bum.
And I think she scared the bum a little bit because she was being really intense.
She cares a lot.
She cared.
She used to like help bums, I think.
But she was so intense.
I was like, oh, this person is afraid of you.
Yeah.
And then we ended up salsa dancing.
And what I liked about that one is that when I dipped her, she went all in.
No fear, no hesitation.
And I had to just really try hard to make sure she not fell on the floor.
But it was so fucking gutsy and so fearless that I was like, yeah, I like this woman.
Yeah, that was cool.
And then there was some wonderful kissing.
And then we went home.
Yeah, that was really fun.
And did you see her again?
Yeah, I saw her like another few times.
And then she wanted to stop it.
And by then I was like so into her.
It was a bad idea.
So that ended.
That didn't end well.
But I don't know.
I don't know if we would.
I'm not sure if it would have been a match.
Sometimes you think a person is somebody that they're not or whatever.
It's hard.
Yeah.
This was so intense.
Like these three days we went on were so intense that somehow it didn't feel.
Yeah, so it's better to maybe pace yourself or not get your hopes up or be a bit wiser
and patient about it.
But yeah, I don't know.
That's possible all the time.
So like a big point of this also is about dating in our 30s, right?
And how it's different than, let's say, dating in our 20s.
And you are now at the end of your 30s.
And you've been, let's say, in the dating pool for a super long time.
So with people around you, right, say, let's say they're, you know, been together since
college.
A lot of your friends are college friends or other people in your 30s are married with
kids doing this whole family thing.
And you already mentioned that you weren't sure about doing the family thing, but you're
really looking for a long term partner.
But it sounds like you're going on a lot of first dates, but nothing sticking.
So how are you in your downloading and deleting the app sometimes multiple times a day?
How are you like really feeling?
Like what is really going on?
I'm repeating it back to you.
Sometimes I'm very sad.
Like let's say there's a weekend and I don't have much to do.
Then yeah, I get very unhappy with my situation.
And the word loneliness can come about and yeah, it's unfortunate.
It makes me sad sometimes that this has never happened or for whatever reason.
Do you have any, you say for whatever reason, but are there like patterns or things that
are coming up or affecting why?
Yeah, I think up until my 30s, I just didn't, I didn't take it that seriously or I wasn't,
I never saw the relationship as something I wanted or even respected or saw the value
in it or I don't know.
And I also, I feel like I didn't recognize it's like what is love?
You know, for, yeah, that's, I hardly ever use the word, but somehow you see what your
parents do and then you think that's what it is.
But is it really, is there's a lot of reflecting and thinking you can do and like getting to
know your own feelings and patterns and whatever.
I think that alone took me like years and still is a work in progress.
It's like, what do I recognize as love?
What do I think it is?
And what is it actually?
It's like, so I think a lot of my 30s was about like not understanding that.
If I look back, there was some ladies I met in my 20s that if I would meet them now, I
would sort of like recognize and appreciate the feeling and do something else with it.
But back then I was just like, okay, this is nice.
And then whatever, I didn't look for it again or whatever.
I was just in a different mindset, I guess.
And in my 30s, I started to sort of like, that mindset started to shift.
But then I somehow I met less, I met less options.
I met less people in general, I don't know.
I'm feeling a little bit just through this conversation, like the little bit of sadness
and like the loneliness into it.
What do you think you could do differently to change that?
Well now I think now I just have to, I think now if I will meet somebody, I will recognize
what it is and I will have more skills to make it into something.
So yeah, now I would like, I think I would like opportunities.
And I think I would, I'm more capable of recognizing them and making them flourish.
But hey, I don't know, that's what I think.
But who knows?
What do you mean by more skills?
Well, communication, like talking about conflicts, understanding your own patterns.
Yes, communicating without judgment, like how do you feel, how do I feel, what happened?
And that can take a lot of work, I think, before you can do that.
I know plenty of people that are double my age that still can't do that.
What is the age range of the people you're dating?
I'd say mid-30s.
I don't think I've ever dated somebody older than me, but I would like put maybe like 41
in the apps, but I've never gotten there.
Why not date older people?
No, it's just, it's just attraction, I think.
I'm not into, yeah, no, I'd like somebody who's a few years younger.
It's not that I have anything against it, it just hasn't, it also hasn't come my way,
so to say.
It's not like I check the list, it's just, it's out of experience I have noticed that
whenever I was into somebody, they were usually younger.
And it's not like I have a problem with somebody being older, but it also just hasn't happened.
Well, if your range is only set to 41, it's also not going to happen.
Yeah, but also like out in the wild for whatever reason.
I meet people.
If you were going to sum up your dating experience, let's say the last eight years, right, like
only in your 30s, in a few sentences, what would you share?
You know, say you've got a short bio and you need to reflect, this is my dating story
the past eight years.
Yeah, too much effort, too little results.
You feel like you're putting in a lot of effort.
I used to, yeah, but now I put in less effort, but...
You seem a little, I'm getting this heaviness on the heart, like...
No, we talked about this.
I've told you there is some sadness of like, I'd like a turn at this, I'd like a shot at
this, and yeah.
And you just kind of got dumped like this morning, so...
Yeah, but I mean, it's okay.
I, it's, yeah, but yeah, we'll see.
It's okay.
I don't blame her, I mean, there's no hard feelings.
No.
Yeah.
But getting dumped sucks, especially when you've had like a good run.
Yeah, I'm okay.
You're okay?
Okay, I'm gonna trust that you're okay.
Yeah, no, I'll think about her a little bit, yeah.
I mean, you gotta just move on, right?
And the sooner you do that, yeah.
It was like two weeks, what are we talking about?
I know, but it sounded like you had a good few dates, so that's, I mean...
Yeah, but I also had my doubts myself, so now I'm like, now I can just be like, yes,
see?
Now I can exaggerate the doubts, where before I exaggerated the good parts.
I don't know if it works that way, but I can try.
Yeah.
What kind of advice do you have for people who are dating?
I can tell you what I started doing that I didn't do before that really helped me, but
if that helps other people, I don't know.
But I think we've also, we've touched upon this already.
It's like, I want to feel energy, and I don't just go on a date anymore.
I haven't done so in like two years, but I used to.
Like early 30s, I was just like, okay, let's just meet up.
I don't do that anymore.
Yeah, I just want to feel like I'm having fun, I can be excited about it.
So maybe that's useful to somebody.
Dating Log is recorded and hosted by me, Wyndham Juno.
It is produced by Harry Dark.
Our artwork is in collaboration with Esme Heming Studio.
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