WEBVTT 00:00:01.879 --> 00:00:06.419 Welcome to Illuminating Hope, a podcast of Hope 00:00:06.419 --> 00:00:09.720 House. In this series, advocating justice, the 00:00:09.720 --> 00:00:12.820 legal battle, we dive into the legal battles 00:00:12.820 --> 00:00:16.079 that shape the fight for domestic violence survivors. 00:00:16.260 --> 00:00:19.980 In each episode, we bring you powerful conversations 00:00:19.980 --> 00:00:23.800 with the legal teams, court advocates and change 00:00:23.800 --> 00:00:27.899 makers working tirelessly to bring justice, protection 00:00:27.899 --> 00:00:31.879 and hope to survivors of domestic violence. From 00:00:31.879 --> 00:00:34.920 the courthouse to policy changes, from survivors' 00:00:35.179 --> 00:00:39.219 rights to legal strategies, we uncover the critical 00:00:39.219 --> 00:00:42.700 role the justice system plays in breaking cycles 00:00:42.700 --> 00:00:46.500 of abuse. Whether you are a survivor, advocate, 00:00:46.759 --> 00:00:50.520 or someone passionate about justice, this podcast 00:00:50.520 --> 00:00:53.840 series will empower and inform you. Justice isn't 00:00:53.840 --> 00:00:56.600 just about the law. It's about giving survivors 00:00:56.600 --> 00:01:03.250 a voice, protection, and a future. Cheryl L. 00:01:03.530 --> 00:01:06.609 Rosen is a retired Missouri Circuit Court Commissioner 00:01:06.609 --> 00:01:10.629 who served with distinction in the 16th Judicial 00:01:10.629 --> 00:01:13.750 Circuit based in the Eastern Jackson County Courthouse. 00:01:13.909 --> 00:01:16.730 With a legal career spanning a decade, Commissioner 00:01:16.730 --> 00:01:19.870 Rosen was widely respected for her commitment 00:01:19.870 --> 00:01:23.849 to family law and her tireless advocacy for survivors 00:01:23.849 --> 00:01:26.489 of domestic violence. Born in Denver, Colorado 00:01:26.489 --> 00:01:28.989 and raised in St. Louis, Missouri, Rosen earned 00:01:28.989 --> 00:01:31.170 her bachelor's degree in journalism from the 00:01:31.170 --> 00:01:34.390 University Colorado at Boulder. At just 20 years 00:01:34.390 --> 00:01:37.569 old, she went on to receive her law degree from 00:01:37.569 --> 00:01:41.670 the University of Missouri of Law in 1978. Rosen 00:01:41.670 --> 00:01:44.650 began her legal career at Legal Aid of Western 00:01:44.650 --> 00:01:47.150 Missouri, where she represented survivors of 00:01:47.150 --> 00:01:50.170 domestic violence. She played a key role in drafting 00:01:50.170 --> 00:01:53.650 and lobbying for Missouri's first adult abuse 00:01:53.650 --> 00:01:56.650 statute, laying the groundwork for stronger protections 00:01:56.650 --> 00:01:59.549 for abuse victims across the state. She later 00:01:59.549 --> 00:02:02.010 transitioned to private practice, continuing 00:02:02.010 --> 00:02:05.989 her focus on family law. In 1994, she was appointed 00:02:05.989 --> 00:02:09.770 as a Family Court Commissioner, where she presided 00:02:09.770 --> 00:02:13.409 over contested family law cases and a truancy 00:02:13.409 --> 00:02:16.129 court program. Throughout her judicial tenure, 00:02:16.490 --> 00:02:19.349 she was recognized for her integrity, compassion, 00:02:19.509 --> 00:02:22.449 and unwavering commitment to justice. She also 00:02:22.449 --> 00:02:25.150 served as a guardian at Lightham. Her contributions 00:02:25.150 --> 00:02:28.270 have been honored by the Kansas City Bar Association 00:02:28.270 --> 00:02:32.240 and Missouri Lawyers Week. reflecting her impact 00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:35.819 both in the courtroom and in broader legal communities. 00:02:36.159 --> 00:02:38.680 Now retired, Commissioner Rosen leaves behind 00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:41.659 a legacy of advocacy, service, and leadership 00:02:41.659 --> 00:02:44.340 in Missouri's family court system. Commissioner 00:02:44.340 --> 00:02:46.460 Rosen, welcome to the Aluminum Home Podcast. 00:02:46.580 --> 00:02:48.780 We're so glad you're here. Thank you for inviting 00:02:48.780 --> 00:02:53.439 me. First, I have to say, go Tigers. Because 00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:56.639 I did not know you were a Mizzou grad. I am Mizzou 00:02:56.639 --> 00:03:01.259 myself, so I love it. an attorney on just the 00:03:01.259 --> 00:03:05.819 other day and she had her BA in journalism as 00:03:05.819 --> 00:03:09.060 well, which I thought was ironic that two attorneys 00:03:09.060 --> 00:03:11.840 and judge would have their degrees in journalism 00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:15.139 first. Why is that? I was interested in writing. 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:17.680 I was on the school newspaper and then about 00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:21.139 that same time Watergate happened and you know 00:03:21.139 --> 00:03:23.699 Woodward and Bernstein and being a journalist 00:03:23.699 --> 00:03:26.300 was a proud profession the same way being a lawyer. 00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:30.099 You helped write the adult abuse statute. Can 00:03:30.099 --> 00:03:32.460 you talk a little bit about that process and 00:03:32.460 --> 00:03:34.139 the different hoops you might have had to jump 00:03:34.139 --> 00:03:36.360 through? I had just gotten out of law school 00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:39.479 and I was hired by Legal Aid. At that time across 00:03:39.479 --> 00:03:41.580 the country all of a sudden people were starting 00:03:41.580 --> 00:03:44.439 to realize that domestic violence was a problem 00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:48.080 and so there was a coalition that proposed legislation 00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:51.199 that came from other jurisdictions. It took three 00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:54.280 years to get through. It was a long process because 00:03:54.280 --> 00:03:58.050 it took a lot of persuasion of people to really 00:03:58.050 --> 00:04:00.789 understand that this was a problem, and I think 00:04:00.789 --> 00:04:02.469 people know about a problem, we just didn't talk 00:04:02.469 --> 00:04:04.930 about it. But things like the Missouri Bar did 00:04:04.930 --> 00:04:08.009 not want to be a sponsor of this kind of legislation. 00:04:08.289 --> 00:04:10.650 One of the lawyers who did talk to me about this 00:04:10.650 --> 00:04:12.669 said, well, we should make it part of the Small 00:04:12.669 --> 00:04:14.710 Claims Act. I said, what? And he said, yeah, 00:04:14.770 --> 00:04:17.470 you go in, you get that time, you know, $1 ,000 00:04:17.470 --> 00:04:20.050 limitation, but that domestic violence was a 00:04:20.050 --> 00:04:22.170 small claim. It was not easy getting it through 00:04:22.170 --> 00:04:25.350 the legislature. It took a while, and I remember 00:04:25.350 --> 00:04:28.189 sitting in the house, chambers and it was like 00:04:28.189 --> 00:04:30.050 they were doing their best to kill it. And I 00:04:30.050 --> 00:04:32.850 remember these three guys arguing it just to 00:04:32.850 --> 00:04:34.930 keep the other people not from doing in terms 00:04:34.930 --> 00:04:38.029 of the procedure and the process. And so the 00:04:38.029 --> 00:04:41.050 State Senate was a real issue because that's 00:04:41.050 --> 00:04:43.589 always been more conservative. A state senator 00:04:43.589 --> 00:04:46.850 from Springfield was very concerned that the 00:04:46.850 --> 00:04:50.149 act would be used by gay and lesbian people. 00:04:50.230 --> 00:04:52.569 I mean, obviously it was not written, but there 00:04:52.569 --> 00:04:55.250 had to be then, it's not there anymore, but more 00:04:55.250 --> 00:04:58.920 oriented to not same -sex couples. But this was 00:04:58.920 --> 00:05:03.379 1979 and 1980. Things got better. Maybe not so 00:05:03.379 --> 00:05:06.379 much now, but at least the Act can be used now 00:05:06.379 --> 00:05:09.160 for whatever that relationship is. It was bare 00:05:09.160 --> 00:05:12.100 bones. There is a criminal component for violation 00:05:12.100 --> 00:05:15.500 of an order, and when first drafted it had civil 00:05:15.500 --> 00:05:17.420 consequences, contempt of court, that kind of 00:05:17.420 --> 00:05:20.259 thing. And contempt of court can be a long, arduous 00:05:20.259 --> 00:05:22.939 process in terms of trying to do enforcement 00:05:22.939 --> 00:05:25.920 that way. And I remember sitting in and the office 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:28.439 of the representative from St. Louis and police 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:30.759 chief from St. Louis was there. I mean, there 00:05:30.759 --> 00:05:33.160 really were a lot of people there in terms of 00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:35.160 a lot of support in trying to get this done. 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:37.839 I think it was state rep Weed who later became 00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:39.879 our congressman here. Why don't we have a criminal 00:05:39.879 --> 00:05:42.839 provision for enforcement? You violate it. And 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:44.819 at that time, and I said, how do you do that? 00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:46.519 He said, well, we're the legislature. We can 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:49.540 do anything we want. And so that's when it had, 00:05:49.639 --> 00:05:51.540 at that time, and because they were concerned 00:05:51.540 --> 00:05:53.980 about it, it was a misdemeanor violation. Since 00:05:53.980 --> 00:05:56.500 then, there's now both felony and misdemeanor 00:05:56.500 --> 00:05:59.420 violation, but these were baby steps. And I don't 00:05:59.420 --> 00:06:01.639 want to say we were making it up as we went along, 00:06:01.639 --> 00:06:04.759 but sometimes we were. And sometimes you had 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:07.600 to deal with people and make it palatable for 00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:10.019 them to pass, that kind of thing. And I can't 00:06:10.019 --> 00:06:11.980 tell you we thought this would be a done deal, 00:06:12.060 --> 00:06:14.920 especially when you explained to, and generally 00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:16.759 there were not that many women in the legislature 00:06:16.759 --> 00:06:19.680 at that time, that you were going to remove somebody 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:22.459 from their house, their castle. When I was working 00:06:22.459 --> 00:06:25.250 for legal aid, I had one client killed during 00:06:25.250 --> 00:06:28.350 a domestic violence situation. I think those 00:06:28.350 --> 00:06:31.769 who work in this area know things happen quickly. 00:06:31.829 --> 00:06:33.529 You've got to work quickly. You need the police 00:06:33.529 --> 00:06:36.209 there quickly. You need the courts to work quickly. 00:06:36.509 --> 00:06:38.850 And courts don't always work quickly. And this 00:06:38.850 --> 00:06:41.350 was the first, at least in this jurisdiction, 00:06:41.589 --> 00:06:43.889 the first time that people were really looking 00:06:43.889 --> 00:06:46.850 at the problem. And it was. It was people statewide. 00:06:47.050 --> 00:06:49.889 It wasn't just out of St. Louis or Kansas City. 00:06:49.930 --> 00:06:52.689 It was support statewide. Because finally people 00:06:52.689 --> 00:06:55.629 were I mean, there were shelters here. There 00:06:55.629 --> 00:06:57.670 were not shelters here. The thing we don't talk 00:06:57.670 --> 00:07:01.310 about. I'm sure in the 70s and 80s, this was 00:07:01.310 --> 00:07:03.930 almost impossible to get something like this 00:07:03.930 --> 00:07:06.910 passed. Nowadays, at least, we have people having 00:07:06.910 --> 00:07:08.430 the conversation more and more and more, but 00:07:08.430 --> 00:07:10.810 that's because of you foundation builders that 00:07:10.810 --> 00:07:12.850 had to build on that. Well, it's not just me. 00:07:12.850 --> 00:07:15.709 It was many people. It was many people. And I 00:07:15.709 --> 00:07:18.569 caught the case that happened to be the case 00:07:18.569 --> 00:07:20.449 that got brought in front of the Supreme Court. 00:07:20.509 --> 00:07:23.790 It was this marvelous woman, incredibly strong 00:07:23.790 --> 00:07:27.149 black woman. And the court's judges, people were 00:07:27.149 --> 00:07:30.540 looking. for a means to test the constitutionality 00:07:30.540 --> 00:07:32.920 of the adult abuse act, because again, you're 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:35.879 removing people from a residence or something 00:07:35.879 --> 00:07:38.560 else like that. And I was representing her. The 00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:41.240 judge denied the order of protection because 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:43.879 he said the statute was unconstitutional. And 00:07:43.879 --> 00:07:45.980 there we went. It had not been tested across 00:07:45.980 --> 00:07:48.079 the country. There had been other things and 00:07:48.079 --> 00:07:50.220 there had been other states where it had gotten, 00:07:50.399 --> 00:07:53.100 but it had never been actually appealed up to 00:07:53.100 --> 00:07:55.540 the state level. So they went to the court of 00:07:55.540 --> 00:07:57.660 appeals. Anyway, it ended up in the Missouri 00:07:57.660 --> 00:08:00.980 Supreme Court. And I handled that appeal. I mean, 00:08:00.980 --> 00:08:04.100 we had the support of some people out of DC with 00:08:04.100 --> 00:08:07.339 regard to an amicus brief and things like that 00:08:07.339 --> 00:08:10.079 in terms of, well, because it was gonna be possibly 00:08:10.079 --> 00:08:12.199 a case of first impression. And if this went 00:08:12.199 --> 00:08:14.620 down and all of us had been kind of following 00:08:14.620 --> 00:08:18.459 the same statutory language, if it went down, 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:20.819 all of them were gonna go down. So it was pretty 00:08:20.819 --> 00:08:24.019 scary. As a practitioner, what was it like when 00:08:24.019 --> 00:08:27.389 you were representing? for these laws were in 00:08:27.389 --> 00:08:29.629 place. Was there a case? What did that look like? 00:08:29.689 --> 00:08:32.029 You just said get out of there if you can and 00:08:32.029 --> 00:08:34.450 there weren't places to go and and as you know 00:08:34.450 --> 00:08:37.110 now still it's hard for people to get out financially 00:08:37.110 --> 00:08:39.509 or anything else like that but these cases would 00:08:39.509 --> 00:08:42.830 end up in municipal court. Those are ordinance 00:08:42.830 --> 00:08:46.590 violations here and usually there was never any 00:08:46.590 --> 00:08:50.049 kind of jail time. It was just be a judge saying 00:08:50.049 --> 00:08:52.250 wagging their fingers saying you stay away from 00:08:52.250 --> 00:08:54.110 them. We didn't use compare restraining orders 00:08:54.110 --> 00:08:56.549 either because that's a long arduous process 00:08:56.549 --> 00:08:58.549 as well. And I was working with people at Legal 00:08:58.549 --> 00:09:00.809 Aid who had literally no money. You know, how 00:09:00.809 --> 00:09:03.029 do you put up a bond for a temporary restraining 00:09:03.029 --> 00:09:05.889 order? And because it was not immediate relief, 00:09:06.149 --> 00:09:07.649 you know, you said you got to get out of there. 00:09:07.769 --> 00:09:10.370 Not that that's always the solution either. I 00:09:10.370 --> 00:09:12.350 mean, I think, look, I've always told people 00:09:12.350 --> 00:09:15.029 that the order protection is a piece of paper. 00:09:15.110 --> 00:09:16.909 It doesn't stop bullets. It doesn't stop this. 00:09:17.029 --> 00:09:19.610 You have to be proactive in terms of how you 00:09:19.610 --> 00:09:21.990 take care of yourself and usually your children. 00:09:22.090 --> 00:09:24.620 But this is much better than what we have. had, 00:09:24.740 --> 00:09:28.100 and I think having that, police hate domestic 00:09:28.100 --> 00:09:30.639 violence cases. They're the most dangerous thing 00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:33.200 they go into, except maybe stopping somebody 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:36.820 on the highway. And this gave them at least a 00:09:36.820 --> 00:09:39.779 tool. It maybe gave them the idea that this is 00:09:39.779 --> 00:09:42.580 more important than it had been treated. Not 00:09:42.580 --> 00:09:44.960 that they didn't treat, you know, assault appropriately 00:09:44.960 --> 00:09:47.179 or something like that, but it's the old rule 00:09:47.179 --> 00:09:49.700 of thumb. I can beat my wife with a stick, you 00:09:49.700 --> 00:09:52.159 know, as long as it's the size of my thumb. I'm 00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:54.840 not saying police. towards that but you know 00:09:54.840 --> 00:09:57.440 this is the transition of what happened but I 00:09:57.440 --> 00:10:00.799 think it made police say well now I can do more 00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:03.419 or now I should do more yeah no I gotta start 00:10:03.419 --> 00:10:05.820 somewhere and build off of everything that you've 00:10:05.820 --> 00:10:07.879 the foundation of what you put in place so that 00:10:07.879 --> 00:10:09.879 case that you were at the Supreme Court with 00:10:09.879 --> 00:10:12.620 I'm assuming you won Denise Williams that's her 00:10:12.620 --> 00:10:15.340 name yeah it was under advisement for like six 00:10:15.340 --> 00:10:17.720 months and we were like who knew when I argued 00:10:17.720 --> 00:10:19.799 the case you never know which way it's gonna 00:10:19.799 --> 00:10:22.740 go the court knew it was a case of first and 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:25.220 I mean, there were some technical arguments as 00:10:25.220 --> 00:10:28.419 to why it might be unconstitutional because the 00:10:28.419 --> 00:10:30.340 title didn't include something else. It's all 00:10:30.340 --> 00:10:32.740 the stuff that we lawyers love to do to not get 00:10:32.740 --> 00:10:35.139 to the real meat of the issue. My real concern, 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:38.059 frankly, was the criminal provision. The court 00:10:38.059 --> 00:10:40.460 upheld all that. I mean, it wasn't unanimous 00:10:40.460 --> 00:10:43.080 and some of the dissents were pretty strong, 00:10:43.139 --> 00:10:45.919 but they upheld the statute. And once it was 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:48.539 upheld and there was publicity, there was publicity 00:10:48.539 --> 00:10:50.899 when the statute passed, but it started being 00:10:50.899 --> 00:10:53.970 used more in more and not just in the cities 00:10:53.970 --> 00:10:57.429 but in the more rural areas of the state of Missouri 00:10:57.429 --> 00:11:00.690 because there was this attitude rightfully or 00:11:00.690 --> 00:11:03.389 wrongfully especially among law enforcement in 00:11:03.389 --> 00:11:05.690 the rural areas that we can take care of our 00:11:05.690 --> 00:11:08.110 own we don't really need this kind of thing and 00:11:08.110 --> 00:11:10.330 maybe they did I don't know it changed things 00:11:10.330 --> 00:11:15.129 it did yes we won now the statute now is really 00:11:15.129 --> 00:11:18.309 different than how it originally passed and we 00:11:18.309 --> 00:11:21.450 did add provisions we had some provisions regard 00:11:21.450 --> 00:11:23.490 to custody and things like that. But there are 00:11:23.490 --> 00:11:25.789 a lot more things in it now. I don't think the 00:11:25.789 --> 00:11:28.250 stalking provisions were as clear then as they 00:11:28.250 --> 00:11:31.730 are now. It just takes time and other constitutional 00:11:31.730 --> 00:11:34.570 challenges from other places. And so what we 00:11:34.570 --> 00:11:37.450 have now is not what we had then, but it was 00:11:37.450 --> 00:11:40.019 the major start. But it wasn't just me. I need 00:11:40.019 --> 00:11:42.299 to make that clear. I mean, I did handle the 00:11:42.299 --> 00:11:44.659 appellate case, but it wasn't just me doing this. 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:46.960 The reason we have I Think Anything Here is because 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:50.039 people of like minds or who see a problem say, 00:11:50.179 --> 00:11:52.419 how do we work together to do something to solve 00:11:52.419 --> 00:11:56.120 it? I'd like to go back to the discussion with 00:11:56.120 --> 00:11:58.740 the abusers or the offender having to leave the 00:11:58.740 --> 00:12:01.580 home being constitutional or not being constitutional. 00:12:01.860 --> 00:12:04.340 Today, you don't hear a lot of that happening. 00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:07.299 As a matter of fact, it would probably help if 00:12:07.299 --> 00:12:09.740 the abuser or offender did have to leave the 00:12:09.740 --> 00:12:12.139 home. Is it still written in the statute that 00:12:12.139 --> 00:12:14.379 that's the case? Or are we seeing that happen 00:12:14.379 --> 00:12:17.320 today? It does. That's the order. It's not just 00:12:17.320 --> 00:12:19.919 a stay away provision, but it's you have to leave 00:12:19.919 --> 00:12:21.779 the residence. And that still remains, I think, 00:12:21.879 --> 00:12:24.700 the crux. of the statute because the problem 00:12:24.700 --> 00:12:27.840 is not that they were ordered to leave the house, 00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:30.879 it's the fact that it was done ex parte. Ex parte 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:35.120 meaning just done on the petition of the person 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:37.399 saying this happened, this happened, this happened. 00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:40.580 So the legal process, and this has always been 00:12:40.580 --> 00:12:43.659 this way, the petition gets filed, it gets sent 00:12:43.659 --> 00:12:46.620 to a judge, and the judge reads the affidavit. 00:12:46.659 --> 00:12:48.980 And if the affidavit supports that, then they 00:12:48.980 --> 00:12:51.789 can issue an ex parte or protection or Now in 00:12:51.789 --> 00:12:53.549 the vernacular, they just call it, people call 00:12:53.549 --> 00:12:55.169 it an ex parte and they don't even know what 00:12:55.169 --> 00:12:57.669 that really means. It's always amused me, actually, 00:12:57.669 --> 00:12:59.529 at this point. But it was without a hearing. 00:12:59.710 --> 00:13:01.929 The provisions were, they're out of the house, 00:13:02.230 --> 00:13:04.669 the police can get them out of the house if they 00:13:04.669 --> 00:13:07.269 don't leave or if they violate the ex parte order, 00:13:07.450 --> 00:13:09.370 there are the criminal violation provisions. 00:13:09.389 --> 00:13:12.610 And then there's the hearing, what, 15 days later, 00:13:12.610 --> 00:13:15.269 I think. Okay. Very important. So the whole issue, 00:13:15.350 --> 00:13:17.830 as we keep hearing today, due process, due process, 00:13:17.950 --> 00:13:21.129 due process, this was depriving somebody of their 00:13:21.129 --> 00:13:24.129 property rights without a hearing, without that 00:13:24.129 --> 00:13:26.809 provision, without you gotta go now, you gotta 00:13:26.809 --> 00:13:29.330 leave now, or the police can get you out of there, 00:13:29.690 --> 00:13:32.730 or whatever. Imagine waiting 15 days, what can 00:13:32.730 --> 00:13:35.129 occur in 15 days? You know, there are issues 00:13:35.129 --> 00:13:37.429 with regard to notice and service and everything 00:13:37.429 --> 00:13:39.789 else like that. But that's what was so radical 00:13:39.789 --> 00:13:41.929 about these things, which nobody thinks about 00:13:41.929 --> 00:13:44.110 these days, thank God, but what was so radical 00:13:44.110 --> 00:13:46.750 was that this was done based upon somebody just 00:13:46.750 --> 00:13:48.610 saying, this happened, this happened, this happened. 00:13:48.690 --> 00:13:50.980 And I won't tell you that that the statute doesn't 00:13:50.980 --> 00:13:53.960 get abused or people lie, but when you weigh 00:13:53.960 --> 00:13:56.960 and balance what's happening. So that's why there 00:13:56.960 --> 00:13:59.840 was the fear that with the provision that there's 00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:02.620 not a hearing before somebody is basically removed 00:14:02.620 --> 00:14:04.940 from a residence that it would fail. I mean, 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:07.259 that's the whole argument these days with regard 00:14:07.259 --> 00:14:10.100 to immigration and the lack of a hearing and 00:14:10.100 --> 00:14:12.460 due process there. These are two different things, 00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:15.360 but that's the due process argument. And that's 00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:16.919 what we were fearful of. That's interesting. 00:14:17.500 --> 00:14:21.299 Why is it helpful to have a DV advocate in the 00:14:21.299 --> 00:14:24.580 court process? I didn't handle the adult abuse 00:14:24.580 --> 00:14:27.259 docket that long. I was a family court commissioner 00:14:27.259 --> 00:14:30.340 and my orders have to be signed off by a judge 00:14:30.340 --> 00:14:33.340 and that was always a cumbersome process and 00:14:33.340 --> 00:14:35.460 so eventually the docket got transferred. But 00:14:35.460 --> 00:14:37.720 for a long time I did the dockets and they were 00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:39.600 at this point I think they were massive. I mean 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:41.720 I had a small courtroom and I can't remember 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:44.620 how it started out but they would be these really 00:14:44.620 --> 00:14:47.419 big dockets and there'd be a lot of people crowded 00:14:47.419 --> 00:14:49.840 in their petitioners and the defendants, which 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:52.200 is not a good way of doing it. I think eventually 00:14:52.200 --> 00:14:54.539 there was a sign -in process, but I don't know 00:14:54.539 --> 00:14:56.639 that we did that in the beginning. It was volatile. 00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:58.960 We didn't have security at the courthouse yet. 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:01.360 We had sheriffs, but we didn't have, you know, 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:03.759 metal detectors or anything else like that. And 00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:06.600 so one time I was doing the docket. That time 00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:09.679 Eileen was an advocate, and she came up to the 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:12.539 bench and basically said, can I tell you something? 00:15:12.580 --> 00:15:15.539 I said, okay, sure. She says, you see that guy 00:15:15.539 --> 00:15:18.559 in that... cowboy duster you know those those 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:21.019 long raincoats that go to the floor she says 00:15:21.019 --> 00:15:24.340 he's got a baseball bat under the coat. Oh my 00:15:24.340 --> 00:15:26.179 goodness. And it all worked out. It all worked 00:15:26.179 --> 00:15:28.480 out. I was able to bust for sheriff and they 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:30.539 escorted him out of there. He had a baseball 00:15:30.539 --> 00:15:32.639 bat. What the hell was he going to do with that? 00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:34.879 Right. And I'm telling you, that courtroom was 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:37.299 really small. Yeah. I mean, he would have taken 00:15:37.299 --> 00:15:39.879 out not just whoever he was there for. It would 00:15:39.879 --> 00:15:42.240 have been a lot of us too. I don't want to think 00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:44.240 about people who are probably bringing guns in 00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:46.879 then too, but I remember that. As a commissioner 00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:49.259 on the bench talking about like in the adult 00:15:49.259 --> 00:15:52.620 abuse doc itself, you're responsible. for not 00:15:52.620 --> 00:15:54.960 just the case that's going on, but you have all 00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:56.799 these other petitioners and respondents because 00:15:56.799 --> 00:15:58.960 it was their large dockets in the courtroom. 00:15:59.240 --> 00:16:02.019 So you were not able to have your hands on everything 00:16:02.019 --> 00:16:04.659 that was going on because it just was so much. 00:16:04.700 --> 00:16:06.659 And that's kind of where the advocates came in 00:16:06.659 --> 00:16:09.440 as we were kind of able to talk with petitioners 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:11.980 if there wasn't served cases. Unfortunately, 00:16:11.980 --> 00:16:14.679 it's hard to get service and that's part of the 00:16:14.679 --> 00:16:16.759 whole thing about due process that they have 00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:20.059 service. Now the order protection can be extended 00:16:20.059 --> 00:16:22.759 until you get service, but some of these never 00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:25.139 got service and that was a problem. So having 00:16:25.139 --> 00:16:28.299 an advocate there was not just for those people 00:16:28.299 --> 00:16:31.500 on the docket, but it did help manage the docket. 00:16:31.879 --> 00:16:33.659 And they were, they were just massive. I used 00:16:33.659 --> 00:16:36.340 to have all day dockets in the morning and in 00:16:36.340 --> 00:16:38.460 the afternoon. And I don't know what the numbers 00:16:38.460 --> 00:16:40.799 are now, but they're a lot. Now that I'm retired, 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:43.419 I don't see it a monthly thing, but thousands 00:16:43.419 --> 00:16:46.139 and thousands of cases are filed a year in Jackson 00:16:46.139 --> 00:16:48.159 County. I don't know what they are across the 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:51.549 state. Now, not all of them. up in orders in 00:16:51.549 --> 00:16:54.230 some cases get dismissed because there was never 00:16:54.230 --> 00:16:56.909 service or anything else like that but now some 00:16:56.909 --> 00:16:59.470 of these orders of protection can be extended 00:16:59.470 --> 00:17:02.629 for years and years they were used to be six 00:17:02.629 --> 00:17:04.670 months which at that time was like oh my god 00:17:04.670 --> 00:17:07.250 a six -month thing and then it got extended to 00:17:07.250 --> 00:17:10.009 a year and now I think there are lifetime orders 00:17:10.009 --> 00:17:12.990 which is mind -blowing to me obviously there's 00:17:12.990 --> 00:17:16.710 been a whole evolution since 1980 with regard 00:17:16.710 --> 00:17:19.930 to their state's steel ideas from each other 00:17:19.930 --> 00:17:22.009 in terms of legislation and everything else like 00:17:22.009 --> 00:17:24.269 that. Some things I think were just unique to 00:17:24.269 --> 00:17:26.269 Missouri, but I know other things where this 00:17:26.269 --> 00:17:28.490 worked in so -and -so. Why aren't we thinking 00:17:28.490 --> 00:17:31.410 this? In these days, I have to believe that doing 00:17:31.410 --> 00:17:34.329 anything in our legislature to change anything 00:17:34.329 --> 00:17:37.329 or to move anything is incredibly difficult these 00:17:37.329 --> 00:17:39.549 days. So I don't know that we could get something 00:17:39.549 --> 00:17:41.769 through the legislature these days only because 00:17:41.769 --> 00:17:44.349 of such a gridlock now. You did the order protection 00:17:44.349 --> 00:17:49.559 docket, and then you've done divorces? I did 00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:52.099 dissolutions of marriage custody, paternity, 00:17:52.299 --> 00:17:55.339 juvenile cases, family law. Just the family law 00:17:55.339 --> 00:17:57.279 DACA because I was a family court commissioner 00:17:57.279 --> 00:18:00.980 and that's my assignment. And you also led the 00:18:00.980 --> 00:18:03.160 Independence Coordinator Community Council for 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:05.039 I don't know how many years, a long time. About 00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:09.299 20 years, which was made up of law enforcement, 00:18:09.579 --> 00:18:11.759 misnouns advocates, children's division, the 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:14.380 school district, probation and parole, prosecutors, 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:17.119 judges were come together and talk about what 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:21.339 we're seeing as trends or gaps in systems. You've 00:18:21.339 --> 00:18:24.250 successfully led that for 20 years. I have a 00:18:24.250 --> 00:18:26.390 story way before there was ever the coordinated 00:18:26.390 --> 00:18:29.470 community council and when Sue else was head 00:18:29.470 --> 00:18:32.170 of Hope house many many years ago and she and 00:18:32.170 --> 00:18:35.230 I I think somebody else met with the then police 00:18:35.230 --> 00:18:38.130 chief in Blue Springs and this is many many many 00:18:38.130 --> 00:18:40.829 years ago and he said well I really don't know 00:18:40.829 --> 00:18:42.589 why you're here because we don't have domestic 00:18:42.589 --> 00:18:46.250 violence in Blue Springs okay I wonder what chief 00:18:46.250 --> 00:18:47.869 would think about that today oh you're right 00:18:47.869 --> 00:18:49.630 right because the chief from Blue Springs now 00:18:49.630 --> 00:18:53.289 is extremely supportive and I know And that's 00:18:53.289 --> 00:18:55.750 the thing about the coordinated community council. 00:18:55.930 --> 00:18:58.509 And there are many of these all over the country. 00:18:58.569 --> 00:19:01.390 But the fact that I do this, but I'm in my small 00:19:01.390 --> 00:19:04.490 little cubby hole and somebody does this, frankly, 00:19:04.569 --> 00:19:07.190 we would talk about trends. We would talk about 00:19:07.190 --> 00:19:09.730 this. Sometimes I would find out things that 00:19:09.730 --> 00:19:11.869 I thought, wow, why is that going on? And maybe 00:19:11.869 --> 00:19:14.710 if I could say something to somebody, maybe it 00:19:14.710 --> 00:19:16.970 got fixed or do you know about this or anything 00:19:16.970 --> 00:19:19.390 else like that? Because we all are in our own 00:19:19.390 --> 00:19:22.720 lane sort of, and that is the value. of having 00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:26.119 something like that. And now I hope it goes on. 00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:29.119 And that continues because I think now more than 00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:31.839 ever, there needs to be involvement. And I would 00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:34.420 hope that our new prosecutor might be persuaded 00:19:34.420 --> 00:19:37.160 to come to a meeting or two. Yes. Yes, Melissa 00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:39.960 Johnson has been actually to a couple meetings. 00:19:40.140 --> 00:19:42.900 And a couple of our events as well. Yeah. So 00:19:42.900 --> 00:19:45.579 she seems to be, I like her motto, change your 00:19:45.579 --> 00:19:49.740 life or we'll change it for you. Let's go. Okay. 00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:52.039 Yeah. But I think you're right. Your point on 00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:53.420 the Cournot Community Council, right? Everyone 00:19:53.420 --> 00:19:55.779 was so siloed. This domestic violence isn't just 00:19:55.779 --> 00:19:57.519 Hope House's problem or the police problem or 00:19:57.519 --> 00:19:59.680 the court problem. Getting everybody at the table 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:03.019 really opened up not only avenues for conversations, 00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:04.880 but respect for each other's and the jobs that 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:07.099 were due, which I know I could see there was 00:20:07.099 --> 00:20:09.839 like a huge shift. Different people have rotated 00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:13.279 on that there was a different ownership of what 00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:15.339 the Cournot Community Council meant. Wasn't just 00:20:15.339 --> 00:20:17.619 another meeting to show up at. It was, right? 00:20:17.660 --> 00:20:20.059 We sometimes had really hard conversations. Yeah, 00:20:20.059 --> 00:20:22.019 we did. have some difficult conversations. We 00:20:22.019 --> 00:20:24.119 did, but we also all walked out knowing that 00:20:24.119 --> 00:20:26.619 we respected each other and sometimes hard conversations 00:20:26.619 --> 00:20:28.700 is where we grow. But things like somebody have 00:20:28.700 --> 00:20:31.140 a better understanding because on and off there 00:20:31.140 --> 00:20:33.740 have been participants from the children's division 00:20:33.740 --> 00:20:37.039 and maybe those cases up in juvenile court maybe 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:39.700 they don't but it's all part and parcel good 00:20:39.700 --> 00:20:42.039 for the police to hear something about because 00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:43.920 we all think this is how the police work this 00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:46.859 is how a caseworker works and during the pandemic 00:20:46.859 --> 00:20:49.299 times were so difficult. Oh yeah. We didn't meet 00:20:49.299 --> 00:20:51.470 for I don't remember probably a year probably 00:20:51.470 --> 00:20:54.829 but still to get back into that and to because 00:20:54.829 --> 00:20:58.230 my opinion is that the pandemic changed so many 00:20:58.230 --> 00:21:00.829 things and so many attitudes to maybe not for 00:21:00.829 --> 00:21:03.839 the better it was a way for each of us to hear 00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:06.980 a different perspective, which you don't see. 00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:08.799 I wouldn't want to be a police officer. I mean, 00:21:08.819 --> 00:21:11.900 that's an incredibly difficult job on anything 00:21:11.900 --> 00:21:14.920 these days, and there's clearly an uptick in 00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:17.339 domestic violence right now. I'm not in the game 00:21:17.339 --> 00:21:19.720 anymore, technically, just from what I read in 00:21:19.720 --> 00:21:23.099 terms of the murders and the relationship of 00:21:23.099 --> 00:21:27.059 DV2, the uptick in violence, too. For me, personally, 00:21:27.220 --> 00:21:30.119 there were just too many children involved in 00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:32.160 stories that you just read. in the paper and 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:34.980 when I was on the bench and had access to things, 00:21:35.240 --> 00:21:37.779 it was like, wow. And so the question is, what 00:21:37.779 --> 00:21:40.940 Hope House does in terms of being a place of 00:21:40.940 --> 00:21:43.559 refuge, which is literally what it started out 00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:46.700 as, and now it has so many supporting programs, 00:21:46.759 --> 00:21:48.859 and there are other things, but I think we all 00:21:48.859 --> 00:21:50.680 know it will never be enough. You're right. Yeah, 00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:52.759 it'll never be enough. And I think that, again, 00:21:52.859 --> 00:21:54.700 just listening to you talk makes me kind of think 00:21:54.700 --> 00:21:56.920 back, like, over the years, how far we've come, 00:21:57.000 --> 00:22:00.180 but yet there's still so much to do. Yes. Yeah. 00:22:00.259 --> 00:22:03.140 So there's still a lot of work and grateful to 00:22:03.140 --> 00:22:05.119 everything that experiences our experiences. 00:22:05.420 --> 00:22:09.279 My concern these days is, as is everybody's funding, 00:22:09.339 --> 00:22:11.660 money, that kind of thing. It was never enough, 00:22:11.940 --> 00:22:15.519 and now it's just fundraising is difficult. Government 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:17.880 funding, who knows what is happening, or will 00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:20.039 happen with that. I mean, what it took to get 00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:23.180 VAWA passed in the 90s, and now, I'm sorry, there 00:22:23.180 --> 00:22:25.019 are people in the government who act like there 00:22:25.019 --> 00:22:27.079 is no violence against women. Like we've gone 00:22:27.079 --> 00:22:29.799 back 30 years. Well, in many respects, obviously 00:22:29.799 --> 00:22:32.839 we have, but that's a whole nother topic. So 00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:36.559 talking about family law, about custody. Of course 00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:39.339 we're talking about pre and post the statute. 00:22:39.420 --> 00:22:44.359 How was custody determined and prior to our guardian 00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:46.640 program, our supervised visitation here at Hope 00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:49.200 House, how has that changed? Well there's been 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:51.519 a whole evolution of family law. I'm gonna be 00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:53.740 Professor Rosen here for a little bit. I love 00:22:53.740 --> 00:22:57.640 it. Before 1974 it was called divorce and custody 00:22:57.640 --> 00:23:01.039 was best interest and there was frankly a presumption 00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:03.380 that the woman was the better parent and mothers 00:23:03.380 --> 00:23:06.309 had custody. and father's head visitation. And 00:23:06.309 --> 00:23:10.490 then in 1974, 75, they passed what is the basis 00:23:10.490 --> 00:23:12.769 of our family law. And it was the dissolution 00:23:12.769 --> 00:23:15.690 of our jacket. So you didn't have to prove fault. 00:23:15.869 --> 00:23:17.549 You didn't have to prove adultery. You didn't 00:23:17.549 --> 00:23:19.609 have to prove this or that to get the divorce. 00:23:19.730 --> 00:23:22.089 All you had to say is that the marriage is irretrievably 00:23:22.089 --> 00:23:24.329 broken and cannot be preserved. But still there 00:23:24.329 --> 00:23:27.109 was the woman got custody. The husband didn't, 00:23:27.150 --> 00:23:29.509 we're not even talking about paternity cases. 00:23:29.710 --> 00:23:33.029 That's a whole nother story. Then statutes changed. 00:23:33.069 --> 00:23:35.589 and they talked about joint custody. And there's 00:23:35.589 --> 00:23:38.130 been a long evolution with regard to that. But 00:23:38.130 --> 00:23:42.009 specifically, I think it was 1998, they better 00:23:42.009 --> 00:23:44.890 define joint custody and joint legal custody. 00:23:45.009 --> 00:23:47.369 And the theory is that, and this shouldn't just 00:23:47.369 --> 00:23:49.369 be a legal theory, parents should work together. 00:23:49.509 --> 00:23:53.049 So best interests started to be defined as these 00:23:53.049 --> 00:23:55.869 eight factors. And one of the eight factors is 00:23:55.869 --> 00:23:57.710 whether or not there's been domestic violence. 00:23:57.789 --> 00:24:00.529 And that wasn't in there before. And so now courts, 00:24:00.690 --> 00:24:03.900 instead of just saying, easier than, oh I find 00:24:03.900 --> 00:24:05.660 it to be in the child's best interest blank blank 00:24:05.660 --> 00:24:08.859 blank blank blank. Now there is a full consideration 00:24:08.859 --> 00:24:11.940 of all these factors and how parents are supposed 00:24:11.940 --> 00:24:15.279 to communicate and DV being frankly one of the 00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:18.819 reasons not to. People think that there's a provision 00:24:18.819 --> 00:24:21.960 that it's 50 -50 custody. The statute talks about 00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:24.839 it being equal. We've come a long way from alternating 00:24:24.839 --> 00:24:27.759 weekends and things like that and better participation 00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:31.140 but one of the ways you overcome that presumption 00:24:31.140 --> 00:24:33.680 is a finding of domestic violence. So God loved 00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:36.779 the legislature within the last 10 years, saw 00:24:36.779 --> 00:24:39.640 that as a real basis for not doing those things. 00:24:39.740 --> 00:24:43.160 And things became more clear with regard to visitation. 00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:45.259 We don't call it visitation anymore. We call 00:24:45.259 --> 00:24:48.579 it parenting time, if it's a joint custody arrangement. 00:24:48.700 --> 00:24:51.400 But there are reasons to not have joint custody. 00:24:51.500 --> 00:24:53.900 And that's where it's called visitation. And 00:24:53.900 --> 00:24:56.500 that's where it might be supervised visitation, 00:24:56.559 --> 00:24:58.980 which is where, thank God, the Guardian Program 00:24:58.980 --> 00:25:00.940 comes in. Because before the Guardian Program, 00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:03.359 program, you would just say it's supervised by 00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:05.720 who, who would do it, that kind of thing. And 00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:08.940 this Guardian program provides a neutral setting 00:25:08.940 --> 00:25:12.960 for exchange. It provides, as it expanded over 00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:15.740 the years, it provided counseling services, that 00:25:15.740 --> 00:25:17.539 kind of thing. I always felt bad, though, when 00:25:17.539 --> 00:25:19.579 people from Hope House unfortunately got dragged 00:25:19.579 --> 00:25:22.539 into cases to testify about things. But the Guardian 00:25:22.539 --> 00:25:25.640 program has provided this incredible service, 00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:28.579 not just on custody cases, which can be in a 00:25:28.579 --> 00:25:32.089 dissolution or can be in paternity but even short 00:25:32.089 --> 00:25:34.970 -term orders under orders of protection and it's 00:25:34.970 --> 00:25:37.670 a real resource because some of the worst things 00:25:37.670 --> 00:25:40.950 you can do is to not have a relationship. Maybe 00:25:40.950 --> 00:25:44.009 it has to be regulated or supervised but the 00:25:44.009 --> 00:25:46.700 lack of the relationship is also a problem. I 00:25:46.700 --> 00:25:49.119 used to see people at their worst. There are 00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:52.259 some cases where maybe it just needs to be short 00:25:52.259 --> 00:25:55.720 term, that the volatility and maybe things can 00:25:55.720 --> 00:25:58.839 be done. A lot of these cases is permanent and 00:25:58.839 --> 00:26:00.559 there are a couple of times where in essence 00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:03.000 you almost gave the parental death penalty where 00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:05.480 they have no contact, but obviously there had 00:26:05.480 --> 00:26:08.359 been really terrible, terrible things that went 00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:11.660 on. When we talk about domestic violence, I think 00:26:11.660 --> 00:26:14.880 we interpret that as more physical abuse, but 00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:17.680 there's emotion. abuse, and you can't really 00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:20.059 order things dealing with that, but that's all 00:26:20.059 --> 00:26:23.160 part and parcel of this. Kids who witness or, 00:26:23.180 --> 00:26:25.599 God help us, unfortunately, subject to it. And 00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:28.400 those cases tend to unfortunately end up in juvenile 00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:31.039 court. But there was always a component, and 00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:32.859 those were the worst of the worst. Thank God 00:26:32.859 --> 00:26:35.099 for the Guardian Program. Again, about the Guardian 00:26:35.099 --> 00:26:37.740 Program, the reason why it really came, like 00:26:37.740 --> 00:26:39.700 you said, like who's going to do the visitation? 00:26:39.859 --> 00:26:43.220 So oftentimes it would say, okay, so the custodial 00:26:43.220 --> 00:26:45.299 parent will go do visitation at McDonald's. in 00:26:45.299 --> 00:26:47.359 the play area. I don't think they intended that. 00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:48.799 I know they didn't. When they put it in the play 00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:50.039 area, they didn't think that was going to happen. 00:26:50.180 --> 00:26:53.039 Yeah. Or, well yeah, my mother will supervise 00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:56.460 it, but not great. Right. Or the parties will 00:26:56.460 --> 00:26:59.180 coordinate with each other as to who will be 00:26:59.180 --> 00:27:02.319 the supervisor. Excuse me, the reason that supervise 00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:04.400 is because there's probably an order of protection. 00:27:04.579 --> 00:27:06.640 We all do the best we can. There aren't a lot 00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:09.339 of tools. There aren't a lot of resources. And 00:27:09.339 --> 00:27:12.259 the Guardian Program became an amazing resource, 00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:15.819 if only to be without them being there for a 00:27:15.819 --> 00:27:19.039 couple of hours to visit just as a safe exchange 00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:21.680 place because I mean you're right McDonald's 00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:24.160 and Quick Trips right you know let's let's exchange 00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:26.680 the kids there who knew right right you're in 00:27:26.680 --> 00:27:29.059 a public place and so that was right that was 00:27:29.059 --> 00:27:31.099 the best something won't happen in a public place 00:27:31.099 --> 00:27:33.740 exactly oh my goodness who knew right exactly 00:27:33.740 --> 00:27:36.059 which is which is really why we started looking 00:27:36.059 --> 00:27:38.079 for that funding for the guardian program for 00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:41.039 the supervised visitation and exchanges the whole 00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:43.019 intent in the beginning was to keep everybody 00:27:43.019 --> 00:27:45.470 safe But kind of what you just said is we saw 00:27:45.470 --> 00:27:48.970 as time went on that those kids at the program 00:27:48.970 --> 00:27:51.130 with the non -offending parent has that time 00:27:51.130 --> 00:27:53.470 to be with the parent and just be a kid because 00:27:53.470 --> 00:27:56.089 we didn't have any adult talking. We're not. 00:27:56.589 --> 00:27:59.390 Nope. We're here to be a kid and that to see 00:27:59.390 --> 00:28:02.009 the growth in those children from who first time 00:28:02.009 --> 00:28:04.309 coming in would be terrified. They'd be sitting 00:28:04.309 --> 00:28:05.990 on the police officer's lap. They've never seen 00:28:05.990 --> 00:28:08.170 before before they'd be over with their dad or 00:28:08.170 --> 00:28:10.130 their mom, whoever was the visiting parent. And 00:28:10.130 --> 00:28:13.210 then now to see time go on. program yeah we want 00:28:13.210 --> 00:28:14.990 to keep everybody safe because that's what we 00:28:14.990 --> 00:28:17.690 wanted it really is expanded like I guess maybe 00:28:17.690 --> 00:28:20.029 an aha moment my own eyes of wow there was a 00:28:20.029 --> 00:28:21.970 lot more to this but that we just wanted everybody 00:28:21.970 --> 00:28:23.390 safe in the beginning sounds like kind of like 00:28:23.390 --> 00:28:25.289 with the adult abuse law to get the groundwork 00:28:25.289 --> 00:28:27.710 of finding something to put in place and then 00:28:27.710 --> 00:28:30.569 kind of it's changed over time and I don't know 00:28:30.569 --> 00:28:33.750 that everybody who orders it knows about all 00:28:33.750 --> 00:28:36.789 the services that get provided so it just turns 00:28:36.789 --> 00:28:39.369 out to be a bonus I was in it I knew it I work 00:28:39.369 --> 00:28:42.619 with Hope House it becomes a bonus Yeah, it really 00:28:42.619 --> 00:28:44.740 is. It is. There's a lot of great things that 00:28:44.740 --> 00:28:48.220 come from that. I am excited to talk about one 00:28:48.220 --> 00:28:51.019 of the most prestigious awards that we give. 00:28:51.299 --> 00:28:54.160 Barbara Potts was the first female mayor of Independence 00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:57.119 and she's the one who started Hope House and 00:28:57.119 --> 00:29:00.299 she called a meeting and off we went. So each 00:29:00.299 --> 00:29:03.420 year we recognize somebody who has been a partner 00:29:03.420 --> 00:29:06.099 with Hope House over the years and this year 00:29:06.099 --> 00:29:08.220 it is Commissioner Rosen who will be getting 00:29:08.220 --> 00:29:11.140 the Barbara Potts award at our gala in Oh, I 00:29:11.140 --> 00:29:13.880 get so very excited to be able to do that. It's 00:29:13.880 --> 00:29:16.380 a great honor and up to my retirement. I mean, 00:29:16.380 --> 00:29:18.579 I received a number of awards and things like 00:29:18.579 --> 00:29:21.220 that. This is almost penultimate, but it's also 00:29:21.220 --> 00:29:24.720 feels like full circle. Yeah, absolutely. Way 00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:27.279 before you came on board and there's still the 00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:30.039 Jackson County. It divides up the filing fees 00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:33.440 on cases among the shelters. So we had to go 00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:37.420 and visit each shelter. Hope House was this ramshackle 00:29:37.420 --> 00:29:40.299 building and it was put together on a shoestring. 00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:43.940 to see where things have come. The Adult Abuse 00:29:43.940 --> 00:29:46.319 Act was in place, but there weren't places for 00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:49.400 women to go and with their children. And now 00:29:49.400 --> 00:29:52.119 people are dealing with issues of the pets and 00:29:52.119 --> 00:29:54.299 everything like that, just the progression of 00:29:54.299 --> 00:29:56.259 that. So to think that there have been a number 00:29:56.259 --> 00:29:58.640 of important people who have done a lot of things. 00:29:58.900 --> 00:30:00.740 But when Eileen told me I was getting this, I'm 00:30:00.740 --> 00:30:03.079 usually not stumped for words, but I think my 00:30:03.079 --> 00:30:05.319 mouth was open. It's an honor, but yeah, it feels 00:30:05.319 --> 00:30:07.660 full circle. And you're very modest at that out 00:30:07.660 --> 00:30:10.210 there as well when you talk about abuse law and 00:30:10.210 --> 00:30:11.890 the case you argued and you didn't do this alone 00:30:11.890 --> 00:30:13.849 and no you're right you didn't do it alone but 00:30:13.849 --> 00:30:16.349 you were a trailblazer to make it happen in your 00:30:16.349 --> 00:30:19.230 piece just as Barbara Potts she was a trailblazer 00:30:19.230 --> 00:30:21.369 to this happen you know hope house happened that 00:30:21.369 --> 00:30:23.589 you're a perfect fit for that award well I'm 00:30:23.589 --> 00:30:26.250 honored in the Jewish faith we talk about Tikim 00:30:26.250 --> 00:30:29.230 Olo which means to repair the world and so if 00:30:29.230 --> 00:30:32.170 we all can do that in a little space then that's 00:30:32.170 --> 00:30:33.849 what we're charged with doing Commissioner Rosen 00:30:33.849 --> 00:30:36.769 thank you so much for coming on today it's just 00:30:36.769 --> 00:30:38.730 been an honor been an honor thank you Thanks 00:30:38.730 --> 00:30:39.210 so much.