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Welcome to a illuminating hope, a podcast of Hope House,

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We are starting a series,

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Understanding Domestic Violence,

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Knowledge is empowerment.

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The podcast series dedicated to uncovering

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the truth about domestic violence and empowering you

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with the tools and knowledge to create change.

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In this series, we'll explore the many dimensions

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of domestic violence, physical, emotional,

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psychological, financial, and beyond.

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Each episode is designed to educate,

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challenge, misconceptions, and provide actionable

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insight for individuals, families, and communities.

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Because the more we understand,

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the more equipped we are to recognize the signs,

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the signs, support survivors, and pre-vent domestic violence.

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Today on illuminating hope,

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the CEO, Marianne, Mathini, and I talk to Jenny and Tracy.

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Jenny is a compassionate, clinical service coordinator

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and adult therapist dedicated to supporting individuals

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on their journey toward healing and personal growth.

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Jenny's empathetic approach and commitment

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to a safe, supportive environment,

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make her an invaluable ally in her clients,

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wellness journeys.

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Tracy is a skilled, family, service specialist,

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and therapists with a deep passion for strengthening families

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and promoting resilience.

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Tracy's approach combined with her dedication

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to understanding and connection.

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In sure, her clients feel seen, supported, and empowered.

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I do want to pause for a moment,

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and I think it's important to say in this conversation,

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we'll use pronouns she, her, for the survivor,

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and he, him, for the abuser, fully understanding

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that domestic violence happens to all.

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Jenny and Tracy, welcome to the illuminating hope podcast

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for so glad you're here.

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Thank you for having me. Thank you.

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Okay, so today what I want to talk about

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is that domestic violence power control wheel,

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so the domestic violence intervention project

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from Duluth Minnesota for our listeners,

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developed the power and control wheel,

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following multiple focus groups with domestic violence survivors,

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and the wheel documents the abusive behaviors,

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which these women were most frequently subjected to,

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and I know that you both work directly with our clients,

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so I'm going to talk a little bit about maybe some example,

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the power control wheel.

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But first, Maryanne, can you describe

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what the power and control wheel consist of?

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The wheel is kind of like a pie or like a wheel is the spos.

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And so when we talk about the power and control wheel,

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helps us to explain what domestic violence is.

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It's a great way to talk to survivors about it,

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but it's also a great way to educate the community,

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because domestic violence is so complex,

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and it's really can be very difficult to understand.

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So we wanted to take that opportunity to really take this wheel

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and dissect it, spend some time talking about

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those different sections, how it's carried out,

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how an abuser might use these different techniques,

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why an abuser might use these techniques,

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and then I think it's also really impactful to talk about

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how a person that's on the other end of that,

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that's experiencing someone using one of these techniques,

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and what then we can do to help them work through that,

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and help them to be able to heal from the trauma of having experience this.

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So we're going to look at four different sections during this conversation,

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so I think the first one that we would like to talk about then is using economic abuse.

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What is economic abuse?

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So economic abuse is keeping women from having any financial support.

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When we talk about child support, they're supposed to get child support.

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They're either getting it out of the wrong time,

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or they're getting less, and they're supposed to,

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as a way of keeping them from being able to sustain themselves independently,

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and doing this for a long time.

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When I first started here, we didn't have women that even got child support.

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They just didn't receive it.

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Now I see more women receiving it, but again, it's a manipulation.

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It's okay. I'll pay you at a different time than you're supposed to get it,

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and I'll pay you at different amounts, so that you're always wondering what you're getting,

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and how much you're getting.

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I mean, abusers are very good at just doing a little bit to prove power control,

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but then they can back off of it, so they can say,

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well, yes, I did pay you, but you know, I'm not getting it when I'm supposed to do.

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Plus they also will, to the post to pay it,

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which might throw her out of getting any other assistance,

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but they're not getting it.

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Or they say that they fight for 50, 50, and get 50, 50, so she's not getting anything,

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but yet they're not taking the kids.

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So that is one way that I see child support being used as a way of keeping women from

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really being able to sustain themselves and be independent.

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Also with the child support, oftentimes they will stop a job where they make a

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huge amount of money and take a job where they make a lot less,

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so therefore the amount of wages of the child support that's given is much less.

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Or they will also go job the jobs that you can't find them, you don't know where they're currently at.

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Or oftentimes they have to have their wages garnished even to get a small amount.

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There's definitely, they're taking that back.

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I think what's interesting about that example,

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which is something we've talked about before,

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is that the abuse continues even after someone has left.

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And we spent time talking about that on this podcast,

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because a lot of times people really think,

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if that person just leaves, it's over and it's done and they can move on,

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I think we really need to be able to talk more about that.

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That abuse continues.

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And this is a prime example of how this technique is used.

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Can talk more about what happens if someone's in the relationship and how

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economic abuse can impact them.

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But it also is really, really important to emphasize that it happens after they've left as well.

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Plenty of women who less where he takes all of the money and she's been a

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stay at home mom takes all of the money,

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doesn't pay the rent, users are all about what meets their immediate needs.

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So it doesn't matter that in the end, his credit's going to be bad.

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He's not thinking about that.

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He's thinking about how this is going to affect her and keep her from being able

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to sustain herself and sustain feeding her kids.

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A lot of that financial happens after that primarily work with client,

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trying to cope parent.

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Also often times use illegal system afterwards too.

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The more you're in court, you're hiring attorneys.

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Yeah, I'll give you child support,

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but I'm just going to keep filing motions.

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So you have to keep going to court.

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You can't work because you have to keep going to court.

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You can pay that lawyer.

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You're not going to get my money to be using for the kids.

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And I might lose, but you still have to pay an attorney.

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You still have to take time off work to be a court.

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I've had that happen a lot.

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Do you think that some of the economic abuse can be?

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He just wants her to have to ask him for money.

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So he continually has to control in the relationship.

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If he wants her back, that's one way of trying to get her back is to make her so

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dependent that she has to return.

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And lots of women that have returned because they cannot sustain financially

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without his help.

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A lot of the moms that work with have been stayed home long.

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And it'd be like economic abuse is one of the things that keep people from leaving that relationship.

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They realize this will be for them to financially support themselves because they don't have

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any resources currently to take with them.

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And so that makes it very, very difficult for them to even think about leaving.

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Well, I think that's just talk a little bit more about that.

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Is what are some of the things that happen when the relationship is still intact

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that someone would use economic abuse and how would that be to keep them in the relationship?

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I think making it difficult for them to get and keep a job.

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And they do that by getting in fights with them before they go to work so that they're upset

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before they even get to work saying I will watch the kids so you can work with them doing

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a court job of it that they can't count on it.

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Or at that last minute saying I'm not watching the kids doing stuff with the cars

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so they don't have transportation. So when she loses the job they can turn around and say,

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see you can't even keep a job.

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So you can't leave me. You can't even stay employed.

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But because of the way the abuser is treating her or she has bruises on her.

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She has to call in to work or he refuses to let her go in to work.

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Again, it's a way of keeping her tight to him.

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Or if she does work he takes the money and uses it for his own purposes so that she has

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to scramble the money for diapers or money for food to feed the kids or they don't have access

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at all to any of the financial resources.

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So they have a checking account that they don't have any access to that.

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They don't have the ability to use a car or if they do have a debit card or credit card.

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It's oh you can have it for this long but you can only spend this amount and if he's been more than this amount

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we're going to talk about but you did or there's a lot of demands on that's a limited access.

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Everything the goalposts move, right? So even if you are able to manage within what they've

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allotted you then they just change it so that you never do good enough or you can never live up to their

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expectation that they have for you then they just change it.

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And I'm not sure it's always so blatant as you only have this much money but she knows she's going to catch it no matter what.

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You were there too long at the grocery store.

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You're only supposed to spend this much.

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I think when we talk about any of these kind of control methods let's talk about how it is that

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people are often surprised when we say to them they didn't have any access to the checking account.

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They worked and they were the one bringing in the money but they didn't have access to that.

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Can you expand on that and really talk about how that happened that that could be really difficult for people to understand that

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this amount of control is happening in a relationship that you can be the sole provider and have no access to that money at all.

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I think like a lot of different things within the relationship you just get used to how things are.

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You spend a lot of time pacifying.

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So if the user says, look you don't know I'm in charge because I know more than you do and I'm smarter than you are and I get to make the decisions.

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In order to keep the piece which is what you're doing in the relationship 24-7 you're not going to stand up.

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What can you say?

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You're not going to stand up and you might but you just end up going along with until it behaviors just become normal because you live it so long that pretty soon.

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You don't even realize that other people are doing things differently because it just becomes a part of how you have to manage and your brain deals with what's normal doesn't necessarily deal with what's healthy.

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It just becomes normal that this is just the way we do things in our family.

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For lack of a better term you get comfortable in the chaos because that's all you know you normalize that.

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It doesn't mean you like it or you want it. It means that is how you have been able to create normalcy or safety.

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Thank you.

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That's what they say.

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Definitely is the way that they maintain their safety by following the instructions of the directions of their being given because there's always consequences if they don't.

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Even sometimes when they're allowed to be what's considered covering the finances or a control of some financial stuff.

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There's still consequences for them because at the end of the month would you do without money where did it go? Why did you spend so much here? Why is the electric bill that much?

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And oftentimes people will put those in our survivors names and so when they go to try to leave they have debt those bills do not get paid off and then they cannot gain access to resources later to be able to put things in their own name.

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It creates barrier for them to be able to even think about leaving.

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I mean, one of the things we know is that there's a disassociation that happens when you're in a relationship where there's domestic violence. We tend to focus on what is positive and you minimize what's negative in order to cope with the whole relationship.

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And that's why we have women that get out of relationships where they're getting bricks stones through their car windows and they're talking to you like they're walking next door to get a little spread.

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It doesn't even register any more that these things are not acceptable because their brain goes with what's normal not what's healthy and they've just adapted the best they could to any of these things that the rest of us would cringe at.

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They just have adapted that's just the way it is in order to cope.

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And that's because let's go ahead and segue into emotional abuse.

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So what you're talking about is having trauma brain and being under a lot of trauma. So can you tell us a little bit about what your experience is with survivors who have had emotional abuse, which I'm going to assume that statistic is very high.

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I'm 100%.

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Yeah, I agree.

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It's the physical abuse is bad, but it's the emotional abuse that you take with you once you leave.

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It's what stays in your head and tells you you can't do this. You can't do that.

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And so that's what we as therapists have to help them with tears down their spirit. Whatever they have been told over and over again is what they now believe.

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The put down, the criticism, you know, it's that constant, you're not enough messages that they're being given until they start playing those states in their head themselves.

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And so that's what it's becoming the voice that they hear constantly. And so for them to take that and try to heal from that when you're in that environment, it's really hard to heal from something like that when you're constantly being re traumatized or constantly re-vectimize during that process.

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So just trying to survive.

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And that's what we talk about gas fighting, pushing your buttons until you blow up or getting emotional.

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So they abuse your can turn around and say, see, look at how crazy you are.

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Because if they can make other people believe that you're crazy, then it delegitimizes anything that you really have to say. And so you feel crazy and you have somebody telling you you're crazy.

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And somebody who's using every vulnerability that they know about you that makes you feel like well, maybe they do know what they're saying.

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And that power is so significant once they leave when I work with victims, they'll tell me what he says, well, he doesn't have the power.

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He said he could walk in my house anytime he wanted to not his house, but in their head it's still everything he says is the truth. He has all this power.

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That continues once you leave that idea that I can't take care of the kids that I'm nothing without this person.

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I just had a client who she's been separated for over six months just went to the grocery store and bought what she wanted.

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First time in six months because it's so indoctrinated in her that he likes this brand or she was buying things she didn't even eat because it's still in our head that's just the way we do things.

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So it's so much easier if you're just doing what you're being told to do so that way you can protect not only yourself but those that are in the household with you and are constantly thinking about what's keeping us safe.

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And they do start believing that they're crazy because it must be me. I must be the problem because they're telling me I'm the problem. I feel like I'm the problem.

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That's a huge factor that they deal with and leave or even during the relationship time.

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I think part of that is that the abuser will continue to show them that they will do those things too.

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So it isn't like that belief system is so out there because they show over and over and over again that I will continue to insert myself into your life and to do these things and show you that I said,

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and show you that I still have control makes it even that much harder for you to start to really understand what was nonsense and what wasn't true and what is true. They continue to show you why they continue to have that power.

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And that's especially true when there's kids involved.

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The idea that if you don't take every phone call or we're not together, then you're alienating me from the kids or I have a right to talk to my kid whenever I want to and so being able to say, okay, let's look at this.

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No, you don't have to stop everything you're doing 20 times a day, but they think they do because their fear is so great that well he says he's going to take the kids from me if I don't let him talk to him any time he wants to or she shows up at the door.

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I have to let him in because that fear is so great and they've been so manipulated into thinking that as person is all powerful and there's enough evidence to prove that they have the power that they say.

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Any time a mistake is made so they've you know they've been told over and over and over again that they're not smart enough they're not whatever it is they're not enough of and then when those mistakes happen again and that those tapes come back or that of user comes back and says see told you.

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I told you you were stupid I told you you didn't know how to do those I told you that you needed me because if you don't have me then can't make these decisions on your own we can't minimize that I think the way that those tapes plan are backed up with action.

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So it's not like people are just making this up they're not just there are steps and actions that have happened and continue to happen to make it feel like those things are still very real.

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And that is the real thing.

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They could continue to happen and we've seen that a time of time again for survivors and that the actions that they're threatening to do they are doing and so they have to deal with the fact that okay when can I put that in place when I can't have that.

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I do this kind of a nice segue right in.

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So using the coercion and threat I don't think we can really emphasize enough how important this piece is and how powerful this piece is.

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So if you want to talk about how using threats come into play and abusive relationship using threats is huge because it definitely gives that other person the control of our somebody if they're able to say if you do this I'm going to do that or I'll take our kids you'll never see them again or.

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I'm going to kill you and our kids I mean those are huge things that people have to take very seriously and you're going to go ahead and do with that person is saying in order to make sure those things don't happen or at least try to figure out what can I do.

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To make sure that to keep my family and myself safe in this instances but it holds a lot of power of another individual why it's so key in and this because this will keep people from leaving and branching out and trying to do things because they know that other person they're not sure that they wouldn't follow through and the things that they're saying that they would do.

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I mean I think that only think physical abuse is the only abuse that's powerful not the words the aggressive walking but getting in your face and threatening you it's just as powerful.

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It's physical abuse that you might experience because you believe it believe that they're going to follow through and do what they say they're going to do and again that fear gets in your head I better do what I mean that's a safety they have you believing that if you don't do what they say that they have all the power to do whatever they want because there's been action behind those threads that's why.

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I remember talking to survivors and they would say he didn't say word not one word was spoken but I knew I knew what was going to happen because the gun was laying there on the table.

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No words needed to be spoken because he got the gun out and put it on the table.

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I knew right then what was going to happen if I didn't do what he told me to do.

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And it's those words and gestures that other people may not pick up on but you become very aware of those gestures and the looks the things like taking a knife out so that the user can turn around and say well I never threaten you with it.

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I don't know why you're afraid with or I just punched the wall I didn't punch you I don't know why you're so scared of me which factually is true but if somebody's going to punch the wall the next step is they're going to punch you or if they kicked the dog and so as I said earlier,

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the user is very good at doing the minimum to make sure that they keep you under control but they can back out of it or they can twist it around to make it seem like oh you're over reacting or you're just trying to get me in trouble or you don't know what you're talking about.

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I asked her if you threatened or what the gun and she said no we didn't threaten me she said well he didn't hold it at me he shot the ceiling well most of us would take that as a threat she had been told over and over again more shot the ceiling I didn't use so I don't know what you're complaining about so those little gestures that are very powerful and getting you to do what they want you to do whether they physically hurt you or not.

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And that coincides with that emotional abuse because of the gaslighting you talked about which gaslighting would be playing mind games with somebody and sometimes it's even for the abuse or some pleasure which is just my lead disgusting.

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Let's talk a little bit about support systems for survivors of domestic violence because I know that there are some survivors who feel very isolated which using isolation is one of the spokes on the wheel that we want to cover today.

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Let's talk a little bit about what happens to the support system how do abusers isolate a survivor.

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I don't think it's always know you can't go see those people but it's yeah you can go see those people but then there's such a backlash when they do that they choose not to go out with your friends but I'm going to call you every five minutes and you better pick up.

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You can be driving by or you better take a picture of where you're at but then the accusations start you need to prove to me that you weren't out with somebody to the point where I think sometimes survivors are just like I don't even want to deal with it or in that way the other thing is if your family or friends are aware that you're in an abusive relationship sometimes that's what they want to talk about.

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So you go out with them and they're like I don't know why you don't leave him sometimes we isolate ourselves it's too much work it's not fun if we have to always be defending ourselves or we have bruises tend to have a charming personality and they can fool other people because sometimes people don't even believe what's going on because oh he wouldn't do that helping with my car last week you know or he just lunged me twenty dollars you guys are just the to work it out it's not as bad so you just don't bring it up and you more talk about it.

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And you also have the events where that person will go with you to an event and then up top or go you aside or make make a big scene and so you're in this event trying to get out of it like trying to leave as quickly as you possibly can because you know that you need to get out of there before other people are aware as they're very sing for the for the

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people say this person doesn't like me so you shouldn't hang out with them or they're bad for our relationship or they're trying to get between us and so they really cut off any any supports that they feel like could potentially help our survivors because those people want them to be constantly dependent on only them if that's their only source of support who do you feel like you can go to and count on well that's the person you go to because you don't have friends and family and people in your life anymore that will be they're telling you don't have those support not works and building those blocks

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that you feel like they're no longer available to you and they control social media they control your who you're talking to on the phone they control all of that access also along with yeah you can't be friends with that person anymore because whatever piece of

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when you look at the wheel in the different spokes I think there's a lot of interaction between when you use threats that causes isolation and so I think just also looking at that that these aren't just individual sections or individual pizes part of this wheel but that they all interact with each other

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and they all have consequences that lead into the next thing that happens because I think if you say you know what if you go see your mother then I'm going to do there's some threat I will come after your mother I'll come after your dog or whatever it is so that threat then causes that isolation that they come back and said I didn't tell you that you can go see them so then did all that emotional abuse comes into that as well so I just really seeing how it's all just one big intertwined web yeah that's a good way of thinking of that sort of

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that I think of that sort of that I think of we can look more like what it is and then when you have your survivors that are trying to detangle that web you're peeling back layer after layer because it is so entangled and so difficult for them to be able to process in the images each spoke it's not individualized it's not all this is emotional abuse it just fits nicely into this right little constant as you said earlier this doesn't stop once you leave even the isolation we have abusers who will not be around till the victim starts dating

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or is still controlling her following her and controlling what she does it with the idea that we have kids together so you can't have this person at the house or these kids can't be around that family member doesn't end I think you hit on a great point when you were describing and appease her profile sometimes where they just seem so nice and I'm sure that survivors of domestic violence have heard I can't imagine that he really do that he's always seemed so nice he's always been nice to me he's always helping me

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and that's part of the using the isolation because guess what you've just done you've not believed the survivor tries to reach out and they were all the sudden not believed and that's why it's so important to believe somebody when they come to you and what they hear sometimes is well I wouldn't let somebody treat me that way so that again puts it back on the victim like well you just not tough enough or strong you know stop at your foot down enough and so who's going to speak up if that's what you're hearing just

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the way that we tend to then go back and blame the victim for not being able to get out of the situation or that's why it's so important when we meet with our survivors to have the time to talk about this power control wheel there's so many aspects that they're like oh yeah that piece is right and oh this is this and you know they can pilot like almost the whole wheel like yeah yeah but it really gives them that knowledge that yes this really did happen to me yes even though they can be charming and charismatic I'm being believed I know some of the people who are not

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somebody is hearing what I'm really saying and recognizing and there's power when you hand somebody a piece of paper a tool like with the power control wheel is and they look at it for the first time and say I'm not crazy we talk to people other time and say I'm not really a victim because I didn't experience this or this or this but being able to look at this and showing how the physical violence and the sexual violence is like the rim of the wheel and it

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encompasses all of it but being able to show that there's so many other ways there's so many other things that happen that are also abusive as what you were saying

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and it's just to be believed and to be heard and often it's the first time that they felt like anyone has ever heard them not judge them not blamed them and said you're not crazy

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there's nothing wrong with you other than you have experienced trauma beyond what anyone should ever experience and that's not about you

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but the impact of that is about you that word that sometimes difficult for women to buy into and I'm not a victim because they don't understand that what that means

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if there was something done to you that you didn't have control over not that you are beaten down or not that it's saying anything negative about you

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and I've had to change that sometimes in group and call it something else because it can be a sensitive to some of my survivors

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I think also sometimes the wheel helps them realize wow I really wasn't used I didn't even want to identify that I didn't even want to say that but this was going on and so therefore I am not crazy

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somebody else's actions and behaviors have led to this situation I'm not the problem because they often come in saying well

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I just did this and did this differently than they wouldn't get mad things would be okay

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but I can't seem to stop doing X layers Z that makes the mad when we all know they changed what is XY and Z

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for this individual so oftentimes the wheel helps them recognize for the first time that wow there was a piece and it's okay

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or to say that that was one of the other going on and in the middle of it all

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explains it the power control is in the middle and that's what domestic violence is about it's about someone having

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exerting power and control over another person in that relationship and how they do that but I think if we can also

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emphasize that that's what this is about and whatever tactics someone uses whatever and abuse or uses is to maintain that power and

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control I think to go back to what we talked about earlier when someone leaves the relationship that power control then is gone

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you don't have that power control over them anymore so that's when we see these things being used even in a greater degree

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and we see more lethal methods and we see the methods being increased dramatically the stocking

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and so taking things to the next level because they need to get that power control back one of the most

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interest times for individuals and so once again I thought this wheel is just an awesome power for them to

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help give them some of the control back to help them recognize and realize a situation for what I

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has but also if I want to regain my own control how I do that was a great choice. Tracy and Jenny thank you so

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much for coming on today because I've said this so many times that our therapist here at Hope House

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are second to nine and we just appreciate everything that you do every day for our clients for a group I know

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one on a one counseling sessions that you have I love the empowerment that you both share with our

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survivors of domestic violence because there is life after domestic violence and thank you so much for coming