Music
We are the voice of trucking.
Music
Welcome to another edition of Key Up New York,
the Trucking Association of New York's official podcast.
I am Kendra Hems, the president of the Trucking Association of New York,
and I am joined today by...
I am Zach Miller, the director of Metro Region Operations for the Trucking Association of New York.
Awesome. So before we get into it, a couple little things.
First and foremost, we want to congratulate Zach on his marriage.
Oh, thank you.
Not quite a month yet.
No.
Yeah, it was exciting and just congratulations. That's great.
Thank you so much. Yeah, I know it was a surreal day.
Great time.
So happy to have so many of the TANI team there enjoying the photo booth and the dance floor.
We might have to make some changes to our events based on the way certain members of the organization dance,
but it's all good. All good stuff.
We have first and foremost, we talk a lot about the TANI team being a family,
and that was certainly an example of it.
It was a great time. Really appreciate you and Jill involving us in that day.
It was a special day.
But yeah, we definitely got to see sides of folks that we hadn't seen before.
All good. All good.
But it was a lot of fun and really a great time.
And then I do have to comment.
So two days in a row, you and I have coordinated unbeknownst to either of us.
We might spend too much time together. It's a possibility.
So yesterday we had a meeting, virtual meeting with the New York City Department of Environmental Protection,
and turns out Zach was wearing Hunter Green.
I was wearing Hunter Green. It wasn't planned.
And now you show up today and here we are.
And the crazy thing about that, and perhaps we'll give a recap of that meeting at a later podcast,
but the crazy thing about that was when I was getting dressed yesterday morning,
I pulled out that sweater and I was just like, oh, I think I think I'm going to save this for tomorrow
because, you know, it's a nice sweater I want to be in the podcast.
And Jill, my now wife, looks at me and she's just like,
but you're not going to have your TANI swag at the podcast.
I'm like, you're right, you're right. Yeah. So I just put on that sweater and I guess Kendra had the same thought process.
I didn't exactly have that thought process.
No, that was more like, oh, this will look good.
So I put that on for yesterday and I kind of figured I'd wear some TANI swag today.
So, but yeah, no, it's just, it just struck me as funny when I saw you today.
I was like, oh, good Lord, you're right. We probably do spend way too much time together.
I'll wear a jet shirt tomorrow. I know there's no way you'll wear that.
We'll be in the clear.
So with that, why don't we jump into it?
Zach has come up to join us in the studio today to talk about one of our favorite topics, congestion pricing.
Which did come up at my dad's speech during the wedding.
He couldn't help himself.
He couldn't help himself. God bless him.
That is true. But yeah, so we are talking congestion pricing because there have definitely been a lot of movement
since the last time we talked about this issue, namely the Traffic Mobility Review Board came out with their recommendations in November
and then Merry Christmas to all of us the day after Christmas.
The MTA announced that they were going to move forward with that proposal and we do have concerns.
But I'll turn it to Zach to kind of get into a little bit of the weeds in terms of what's included in the proposal for the tools.
Yeah, and as you all know, we did have concerns about the truck rates and unfortunately our concerns were warranted.
They did not quite listen to the issues we raised.
So what it's going to be is for single unit trucks as they call it, it's going to be a $24 toll rate with EasyPass.
I think without EasyPass, it's going to be $36.
And then for the larger trucks, the EasyPass rate is going to be $36 and then the non-EasyPass rate is, what was it, like $54?
$54.
So you know, pretty significant.
So that in and of itself is problematic.
Now, when the Traffic Mobility Review Board made their recommendations, they were rather fuzzy on whether or not the trucks would be charged per trip or per day.
Now remember, passenger vehicles are going to be charged once per day.
That rate is going to be $15.
And I think just not to interrupt, but it's important to know that the MTA did not have a choice on that.
That is part of the enabling legislation for congestion pricing.
The legislature included that passenger vehicles would only be charged once per day.
And that is, you know, we have asked repeatedly for price parity with passenger vehicles.
You know, we'll talk about that a little bit later in the podcast.
But the point being that we still didn't know how many times trucks would be charged.
We had to go back to MTA or the Traffic Mobility Review Board after this was all announced and ask.
And then they came back to us and said, oh, no, the trucks are going to be charged per trip into the zone.
You don't get charged coming out of the zone just when you go into the zone.
Right. Yeah.
And they do provide for some total credits if you're crossing certain bridges or tunnels.
This is another, so there are two other issues that are really important to raise.
One is there are some total credits that are given.
The problem is that does not include the George Washington Bridge, which is we all know is the truck crossing.
So the other entrance points from from Jersey and some from the other boroughs do have credits except for the most commonly used truck one.
The other issue is the peak.
So the prices we gave are peak pricing.
There is off peak pricing and the discounts for off peak are pretty significant.
I mean, it's a 75 percent total discount.
It's significant.
There are no toll crossings because it's such a significant discount off peak, but that's fine.
The problem is what they consider to be peak is or is nine or I'm sorry off peak is 9 p.m. to 6 a.m. 9 a.m.
9 a.m.
So there you go.
Sorry, 5 a.m.
So there's two different periods.
Right.
That's right.
9 p.m. to 5 a.m. on weekdays.
Yes.
And 9 p.m. to 9 a.m. on weekends.
Exactly.
And so that is not exactly the hours or service or time period for commercial vehicles.
So even commercial vehicles that could conceivably route in such a way that they could take advantage of that, it doesn't quite fit into their timeframe, you know, making it more likely that they will have to cross during peak times.
Right.
And again, you know, they, I think the Traffic Mobility Review Board thought this was going to be a way to incentivize that overnight period delivery again.
And we had reached out and had conversations and sent emails explaining to them the trucks don't make the choice.
And yet, despite that, I think they continue to believe that this is going to be like that carrot to get the trucks to come in overnight.
That's exactly it.
And we tried to explain hours of service.
We tried to explain that we don't set the delivery time staging.
They didn't, they didn't want to hear it.
And this is, this is where we are.
And I think another issue specifically is, you know, DOT, New York City DOT really wants to expand their off-hour delivery program.
They've been, they've had this program for some time.
It has a decent amount of buying, but they really want to expand it.
And there are challenges with that, one of which of course being that trucks don't set their delivery schedule.
To that point, especially in this zone below 60th Street, so many of these buildings are unionized, which means that even if the freight hauler and the receiver could come to an agreement of, hey, is it like we want to do this?
We want to make this a little bit better for you.
Can we go?
They would have to renegotiate their labor contracts.
So this isn't happening.
It's not, and it, none of it has to do with the trucking company.
And still it's like, they think they have this great idea, this great solution.
That's not the way that commerce works below 60th Street.
Well, and I think the other, the other piece that they're missing in having some conversations with folks on the Traffic Mobility Review Board, they had said, well, wouldn't that discounted rate help incentivize the receiver?
To take that delivery overnight, and they're not recognizing that it's not enough to offset how much it would cost them to pay somebody over time or to install some sort of security, like secure entrance.
So even with that significant of a discount for overnight, it's still not enough to compensate for the additional cost that it takes to take an overnight delivery.
Exactly.
And, and again, you know, we'll talk about some of the lawsuits, but, but a point that we've made from the very beginning from the FONSI is that, you know, it's not just one delivery.
Right.
Trucks make multiple deliveries and receivers receive multiple deliveries.
So when you talk about things like changing times and staffing, it's not just, oh, hey, Joe, can you just go in a little early to take this one package?
Like, that's not how it works.
This isn't your, you know, you ordered something on Amazon.
This is this is major deliveries, multiple deliveries every single day.
Right.
So a couple other key points, too, is if you're using, if you're not using EasyPass, it doesn't appear that the bridge crossing credit will apply.
So if you're a non EasyPass, not only are you getting a higher rate to come in, but you're also not getting a discount if you go over a bridge or tunnel that's included in those credits.
So that's another important piece.
And then one of the ones that actually I had missed, I can you point it out, was what they call gridlock alert days.
Gridlock alert days, yes.
And they reserve the right to charge an additional 25% on top of the existing toll on what they call gridlock alert days.
Right.
And mind you, it's not, okay, there were a couple of days during the year where you know they're going to be gridlock alert days, you know, right before major holidays.
But there are so many gridlock alert days that people don't know about.
And the notion that fleets can somehow prep for this well in advance to receive the discount is absurd.
And charging more for a gridlock alert day is completely, it's beyond the pale.
And it also, none of this came up in the Traffic Mobility Review Board meetings, by the way.
There was never, they spent so much time talking about the size of the trucks and the axles and all that.
But nobody said anything about gridlock alert days.
So it's just like, where does this stuff come from?
Yeah, that was not, I mean, you and I both watched every single one of those meetings that the Traffic Mobility Review Board had and gridlock alert never came up.
Yeah.
So that was definitely a surprise getting into it.
So at the end of the day, obviously, we're disappointed, we're very frustrated.
They are not really looking at the essentiality of the trucking industry at all as far as any consideration on the tolling that they're providing.
We've already talked about the off-peak issue and just how unrealistic it is to think that just that discount is going to incentivize that traffic in there.
It doesn't align with ours of service considerations.
And I think one of the most frustrating things for us is Zach and I have been working with the city for a long time and they've been talking about these ideas for freight efficiency,
whether it's the micro hubs or possibly freight villages, things that they could do that would actually help address the larger trucks coming in and incentivize more of those smaller vehicles.
They haven't implemented any of it.
No.
In the meantime, not only have they not done anything to address the efficiency, but they're continuing to make congestion worse by bus lanes and bike lanes and reducing traffic lanes, reducing space at the curb.
So their own policies are creating these congestion issues, but they don't want to talk about that part.
Yeah.
And I think it's frustrating, right?
And we have such a good relationship with so many people in city government and the office of freight mobility and they work so hard.
And it always just feels like their work kind of takes a backseat to some of the initiatives like Kendra mentioned.
And it's just like, it's not for a lack of trying.
It's just like these things don't happen holistically.
So where, you know, hey, let's make outdoor dining permanent.
It's not let's make outdoor dining permanent and also make sure that the retailers have enough space for, you know, for loading and unloading or, hey, we're going to do outdoor dining.
Let's talk about where we could put a micro hub in this, you know, commercial corridor to make that last mile more efficient.
They're all good ideas that are being floated around, but they're siloed.
And the things that happen first are like either the enforcement or taxation like congestion pricing.
And it is really hard for companies to try to take that sort of big picture approach when this is what's coming at them sooner rather than later.
Exactly. And one of the other big concerns is, and we've been saying this from the beginning, this will disproportionately hurt our small business, not just our small trucking companies, but those small businesses that are located within the zone.
And in fact, when we had reached out seeking clarification on whether they were going to be charged once per day or multiple times, they had come back and said, no, it's every time they go in in the zone.
But their justification for that is they said that their data indicates that three quarters of the truck trips are only once per day.
So therefore they feel that we're not hurting the industry, right? They're really only going to pay once a day.
Anyways, the part they're missing with that analysis is the trucking companies that do go into the zone multiple times a day are our small, local businesses.
The vast majority of trucks coming in once a day are regional haulers over the road haulers. It's not our small, local business.
They are the ones that are in and out of that zone multiple times a day. They're the ones that are going to get hurt by it.
And then of course, the smaller businesses that are located in the zone that are receiving those multiple deliveries a day are also going to be hurt by this.
Absolutely. And I think tying it, tying a little bit into things like freight villages or, you know, one of the reasons why trucks deliver so much more to New York City than freight tonnage national average is because the cost of real estate in New York City is so high
that per square foot retailers really can't allocate space for storage. So they need to get those deliveries six days a week, basically.
And there's just, it's hard to take that off a truck into something else, you know, per volume.
And that is not something that is factored into the equation here for things like this. And it's just like the costs to operate a small business trucking company or retailer are astronomical in the region right now.
And there's no relief in sight. You know, it's just, oh, it's going to cost more, it's going to cost more.
And I think there's a lack of big picture of it's not just a congestion pricing towing that's hitting these people. There are a host of other violations. There's the cost of labor. There's costs of insurance.
There's costs of rent. You know, that small businesses operate on really small margins. Like where is this extra room coming from?
Well, and again, to your previous point, they operate in silos. They do not look holistically, which we can get into the lawsuits in just a bit. But that is a lot of what the lawsuits are arguing is there's a larger economic impact here than was taken into consideration.
But we'll get there. I think one of the other key points that we've mentioned before is really the biggest problem with this program is the billion dollar mandate.
So we talk about, they call it congestion pricing as if it's something that is really intended to address congestion. But in reality, it has nothing to do with congestion and everything to do with raising the billion dollars that was mandated by the legislature so that they can then bond against that billion
dollars to raise the funds for a 15 billion dollar capital plan. So when you start talking about toll credits or exemptions or once a day pricing, every little bit that they give, they've got to increase somewhere else in order to ensure that they're meeting the billion
dollars. So one of our biggest arguments is we're subsidizing.
We're non-discretionary users of the roads within New York City. We have to be there to make deliveries. So we're ultimately going to subsidize passenger vehicles who by and large have a choice.
Yes, exactly. And the idea is that we, it's twofold. One is we want to change behavior, get more people out of their personal vehicles into mass transit. And the second is to then fund the mass transit system, which has so many challenges.
But if we're subsidizing a lower rate for cars, we're not really changing behavior. And, you know, to Kendra's point, you can't move freight on mass transit. That's not how it works.
Nor is there really money allocated to things like micro hubs or other, you know, sort of freight efficiency modes. It's really just about public transportation.
So you're asking the non-discretionary travel to subsidize the discretionary travel under the guise of changing discretionary travel behavior.
You know, I'm not the greatest mathematician in the world, but that doesn't make sense to me.
No, it does not. It does not. And obviously one of our concerns is let's say they're actually successful in reducing passenger vehicle traffic.
They still have to meet the billion dollar toll or the billion dollars that's mandated in the legislation. So what do they do?
They're either going to reduce discounts or they're going to increase tolls. And again, as non-discretionary users, we're going to have to pay whatever they put out there.
So that is a really, really big concern for us going forward.
Right. Well, tolls everywhere, you know, Port Authority increases their tolls, the three-way increases their tolls, the other MTA crossings increase their tolls.
And then, you know, potential congestion pricing, not having to keep up with the rate of inflation, having to keep up with the rate of a billion dollar mandate.
And just quickly, you know, a lot of times when people hear congestion pricing, they think of London and what London did.
And I think it's important to talk about what London did because it's very different from what is going to hit New York City.
First of all, London made their investments in mass transit before the congestion pricing went into effect.
Second of all, London charges lorries, what they call trucks. I just had to get that in there.
And cars the same rate, and it's a one-a-day rate. And they're, you know, they've had congestion pricing for a while.
So when it rolled out, there were a lot more sort of like zero-mission vehicle subsidies and things like that.
They kind of phased a lot of that out. I think there's still some, but they phased a lot of that out.
And of course, more most importantly, it really is a traffic management transit plan.
So there's no revenue mandate. It's, you know, whatever revenue is generated by the toll, you know, that's great.
And why that's so important is last week, we checked, London's congestion pricing generates about, you know, equivalent American dollars, about $250 million.
So London that has perfected this basically only brings in a quarter of what is mandated in New York State law to bring in through this program.
Right. Yeah, exactly. Well, I think in part because London truly was looking at congestion, right?
And to your point, they made the investments ahead of time so that passenger vehicle users had options.
Yeah. And they saw the need to address the freight aspect, you know, and so that's exactly what we're asking for.
So I think that's a good segue. Why don't you talk a little bit about the working group and what you guys have been doing.
And then we can kind of get into some of the strategies that we're looking at to address this.
Yeah, absolutely. So when I think when the traffic mobility review board was formed, we formed a congestion pricing working group.
So this includes TANI members, but also non members and also other industry groups and trade organizations.
So, you know, we have the messenger association is involved. Some of the local chambers of commerce are involved.
Some of the industrial business zones are really involved. You know, some media and entertainment because it's New York City are really involved.
And it's great. And it's really great to talk through ideas together to come up with some of these solutions.
That's where a lot of our data points have come from. You know, we are also going to really kick off a very robust data collection process.
We're talking to some folks about, you know, the travel and what it costs them, either per dollar or percentage to make a delivery.
And then conversely, what does it cost you when you receive a delivery and trying to collect that, that those data points to let, you know, the MTA and the elected officials know that, hey, we're not just talking out loud here.
These are real dollars and cents. And this is how things are going to go up. One of the cool things that came from the working group was what we call the $20 bagel.
And that's based on, you know, what it what food and beverage markup typically costs.
You know, if you take the congestion pricing, totally rates and put that in your calculations, all of a sudden you could see in that zone and, you know, in New York City at large, a bagel and a small coffee is going to be $20, which
you know, as somebody who very much enjoys the the Saturday and Sunday bagel and coffee, not so tenable.
No, not a laughing matter, but yes, you're right. And in fact, right after the toll rates had been announced, I saw an interview, and they were interviewing a restaurant owner, it was an Italian restaurant owner.
And he hit it. He's like, how much can I charge for a plate of pasta and still think that people are going to come and want to eat at my restaurant?
Exactly.
Yeah, so that's it's huge. So we'll talk a little bit about what we're trying to accomplish.
And then we can touch on some of the litigation stuff that's happening too. But so we're we're kind of taking multiple strategies as it relates to pushing back on this plan.
We are working on a lot of public relations and media and just trying to educate. We were successful through our PR firm and getting a great op ed that was written by Joe Fitzpatrick from Lightning Express.
Joe's our current vice chairman. He's also a small trucking company owner, warehousing.
Yeah, he's in the Mid Hudson Valley.
He uses organized labor as well.
Exactly. I mean, really just a great piece on how this is going to affect an impact small business and it was picked up by like four or five different news outlets.
So we're really trying to push the media front in terms of education.
Legislative strategy.
We are going to be seeking legislation to amend the enabling legislation that does then provide trucks with pricing parity with cars.
That's going to be a top priority for us this legislative session. We've got our call on Albany coming up on March 4th and 5th.
And it'll be a big piece there.
We'll be partaking in the public hearing process and I'm not going to shy away from saying it. It's it's window dressing.
Yeah, the MTA has dug their heels in that was pretty apparent during the transportation hearing for the joint budget hearing.
That they're they're pretty much set with this tolling and they've been pretty clear like any changes that we make, we're going to have to make increases somewhere else if they offer exemptions or cut back on discounts or whatever the case may be.
So they've dug their holes in there. They're their heels in they're going to go through the process. There's four public hearings that have been scheduled and there's a public comment period that's now open through March 11.
Yeah, the 11th.
And we'll participate in that. But again, I'm not holding out any hope that we're going to get changed from the MTA.
I do encourage, you know, if you don't want to sit through these these hearings, which believe me, I'm paid to do it and I understand.
But you really should submit comments though, because if if nothing else don't make it easy for them to check that box.
And also, you know, the fight isn't going to end with the public hearings. The more you're able to sort of collect your information and put it publicly and then something that we can use the better.
So I highly encourage just taking some time and submitting some comments. And of course, I'm available if you want to talk through that with me.
I'm happy to help with with those comments. It really is important.
You could go to the website news.mta.info slash project CBDTP. That's easy to say.
They'll be a link.
Just search for central business district tolling. That's the easiest way to get there.
They'll be a link.
We will put a link on with the podcast.
And so the hearings are going to be February 29, March 1 and 2 on March 4.
And there's definitely a joke about Groundhog Day and this being in there.
But I have had enough coffee to come up with that yet.
There you go.
I want to reiterate though, I mean, I say that it's window dressing, but there is importance in submitting written comment.
I think this is a good segue to the litigation that's out there because it becomes part of the public record.
And what we really want to make sure is documented is the economic impact that this is going to have on you as a trucking company, on your customers that receive your deliveries.
Because as this legal process plays out, some of that public record could certainly come into play through the litigation.
So if you want to speak to where that's at.
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's interesting.
We were told this week that there are actually five lawsuits right now.
We're aware of three of them.
And, you know, by that, I mean, we've had conversations with people involved in these three.
So one is New Jersey is suing.
Staten Island has partnered with the teachers union.
And then there's a group, there's a civic group and they have some businesses.
It's called lower Manhattan, but really it's the five boroughs that, you know, they have a class action from from stakeholders all across the five boroughs who are suing.
All these lawsuits are sort of there, they're attacking the issue of the environmental process and the way that was done, which is something that we've raised in the FONZ and we've actually raised it in a New York City Council here and we've raised it a lot.
And it is, it's a very valid argument to be made.
Absolutely.
I mean, a program of this scope.
It just kind of blows the mind that the federal government said, you only have to do an assessment.
Yeah, you know, versus typically something of this nature where you have both massive environmental and economic impact.
They would require what's called a full economic impact or I'm sorry, environmental impact statement, which would have taken much longer would have forced the MTA to go into far more detailed research than they did.
But unfortunately, the federal government came back and said, no, you only have to do an environmental assessment, which is a kind of a truncated version of a DEIS.
So the five lawsuits actually not only name MTA, but they named federal highway administration as well.
So as Zach said, we've made that same argument that they should have had to do the full environmental impact statement.
But we're not planning on suing on that. There's already five lawsuits out there.
We're planning on being supportive. We may offer amicus briefs to support the argument.
But we do get asked often like, well, what are you guys doing? Are you going to sue?
And the best I can say at this point is litigation is not off the table.
We are very much trying the legislative route and we're going to do everything we can to try and get that pricing parody into the legislation.
But if we are unsuccessful there, you know, certainly discussions about whether or not we have standing as far as litigation are ongoing.
So, you know, stay tuned on how that plays out.
I think the biggest takeaway though is we really need folks to get involved. I mean, obviously Tanny has this as a top priority for us for this year.
But they need to hear from the trucking companies. They need to hear from the receivers.
As Zach mentioned, you know, go to the MTA website. It has information, but also keep an eye on Tanny's website.
We are working on an action alert that'll be up on our website that you'll be able to very easily find all this information, submit comments, write letters,
supporting our legislation once we get that up, as well as submitting comments to the MTA.
So just keep an eye on that. It's www.nytrucks.org and you go to our advocacy pages.
It'll be up there hopefully within about a week or so.
Yeah, and you know, my email is Zach Zach at nytrucks.org. You know, you have questions on any of this even if you want to connect with some of the lawsuits that we mentioned here today.
You know, reach out to me. I know who to connect you with. It really is important that you stay involved and stay vigilant with this because there's still a lot of work that needs to be done.
I think even if you don't operate in New York City, keep an eye on this.
Yes. Because one of the biggest concerns is if New York City, well, New York and New York City are successful in implementing this program, it's not going to be long that other cities across the state or across the country look at this as well
because they're all struggling with revenue and funding for their transit systems.
And I think that also presents opportunity to get some of these changes that we're asking for because if trying to take the personal out of it, right, just if this fails in New York City, it will fail around the country.
And New York City and the New York State legislature has a very strong incentive to make sure it doesn't fail. But what has been approved will set it up for some pretty serious failure.
And they're all watching that around the country. And so you have to make your voice heard. You have to make these points out there publicly. People need to know.
Absolutely.
Thanks for that fun. Obviously, a big issue and I know we've talked about congestion pricing before, but we really wanted to make sure everybody understood kind of where things are at in the process, what the tolling proposal looks like, how to get involved, what we're doing as an association to try and tackle this.
And certainly this won't be the last that we're talking about it. Hopefully we're going to keep fingers crossed. Maybe we'll have some good news the next time that we tackle this particular topic.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Okay, well with that, I think that wraps up for this episode. We really appreciate everybody joining us. Be sure to like us, follow us, share us, tell your friends. And we'll see you next time.