1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:26,000 Music 2 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,000 We are the voice of trucking. 3 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,000 Music 4 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:33,000 Welcome to another edition of Key Up New York, 5 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,000 the Trucking Association of New York's official podcast. 6 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:38,000 I am Kendra Hems, the president of the Trucking Association of New York, 7 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,000 and I am joined today by... 8 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:44,000 I am Zach Miller, the director of Metro Region Operations for the Trucking Association of New York. 9 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,000 Awesome. So before we get into it, a couple little things. 10 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:51,000 First and foremost, we want to congratulate Zach on his marriage. 11 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:52,000 Oh, thank you. 12 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,000 Not quite a month yet. 13 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:55,000 No. 14 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:59,000 Yeah, it was exciting and just congratulations. That's great. 15 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,000 Thank you so much. Yeah, I know it was a surreal day. 16 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,000 Great time. 17 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:12,000 So happy to have so many of the TANI team there enjoying the photo booth and the dance floor. 18 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:22,000 We might have to make some changes to our events based on the way certain members of the organization dance, 19 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,000 but it's all good. All good stuff. 20 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:28,000 We have first and foremost, we talk a lot about the TANI team being a family, 21 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,000 and that was certainly an example of it. 22 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:35,000 It was a great time. Really appreciate you and Jill involving us in that day. 23 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:36,000 It was a special day. 24 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:42,000 But yeah, we definitely got to see sides of folks that we hadn't seen before. 25 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:43,000 All good. All good. 26 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,000 But it was a lot of fun and really a great time. 27 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,000 And then I do have to comment. 28 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:53,000 So two days in a row, you and I have coordinated unbeknownst to either of us. 29 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,000 We might spend too much time together. It's a possibility. 30 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:05,000 So yesterday we had a meeting, virtual meeting with the New York City Department of Environmental Protection, 31 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,000 and turns out Zach was wearing Hunter Green. 32 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,000 I was wearing Hunter Green. It wasn't planned. 33 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,000 And now you show up today and here we are. 34 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:20,000 And the crazy thing about that, and perhaps we'll give a recap of that meeting at a later podcast, 35 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:27,000 but the crazy thing about that was when I was getting dressed yesterday morning, 36 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:35,000 I pulled out that sweater and I was just like, oh, I think I think I'm going to save this for tomorrow 37 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,000 because, you know, it's a nice sweater I want to be in the podcast. 38 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,000 And Jill, my now wife, looks at me and she's just like, 39 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,000 but you're not going to have your TANI swag at the podcast. 40 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:52,000 I'm like, you're right, you're right. Yeah. So I just put on that sweater and I guess Kendra had the same thought process. 41 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,000 I didn't exactly have that thought process. 42 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,000 No, that was more like, oh, this will look good. 43 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:00,000 So I put that on for yesterday and I kind of figured I'd wear some TANI swag today. 44 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:05,000 So, but yeah, no, it's just, it just struck me as funny when I saw you today. 45 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:10,000 I was like, oh, good Lord, you're right. We probably do spend way too much time together. 46 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:14,000 I'll wear a jet shirt tomorrow. I know there's no way you'll wear that. 47 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,000 We'll be in the clear. 48 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,000 So with that, why don't we jump into it? 49 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:27,000 Zach has come up to join us in the studio today to talk about one of our favorite topics, congestion pricing. 50 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:31,000 Which did come up at my dad's speech during the wedding. 51 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,000 He couldn't help himself. 52 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,000 He couldn't help himself. God bless him. 53 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:43,000 That is true. But yeah, so we are talking congestion pricing because there have definitely been a lot of movement 54 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:50,000 since the last time we talked about this issue, namely the Traffic Mobility Review Board came out with their recommendations in November 55 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,000 and then Merry Christmas to all of us the day after Christmas. 56 00:03:54,000 --> 00:04:00,000 The MTA announced that they were going to move forward with that proposal and we do have concerns. 57 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:06,000 But I'll turn it to Zach to kind of get into a little bit of the weeds in terms of what's included in the proposal for the tools. 58 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:18,000 Yeah, and as you all know, we did have concerns about the truck rates and unfortunately our concerns were warranted. 59 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:22,000 They did not quite listen to the issues we raised. 60 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:35,000 So what it's going to be is for single unit trucks as they call it, it's going to be a $24 toll rate with EasyPass. 61 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,000 I think without EasyPass, it's going to be $36. 62 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:48,000 And then for the larger trucks, the EasyPass rate is going to be $36 and then the non-EasyPass rate is, what was it, like $54? 63 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,000 $54. 64 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,000 So you know, pretty significant. 65 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:56,000 So that in and of itself is problematic. 66 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:09,000 Now, when the Traffic Mobility Review Board made their recommendations, they were rather fuzzy on whether or not the trucks would be charged per trip or per day. 67 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:14,000 Now remember, passenger vehicles are going to be charged once per day. 68 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,000 That rate is going to be $15. 69 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:22,000 And I think just not to interrupt, but it's important to know that the MTA did not have a choice on that. 70 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:26,000 That is part of the enabling legislation for congestion pricing. 71 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:31,000 The legislature included that passenger vehicles would only be charged once per day. 72 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:37,000 And that is, you know, we have asked repeatedly for price parity with passenger vehicles. 73 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,000 You know, we'll talk about that a little bit later in the podcast. 74 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:47,000 But the point being that we still didn't know how many times trucks would be charged. 75 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:55,000 We had to go back to MTA or the Traffic Mobility Review Board after this was all announced and ask. 76 00:05:55,000 --> 00:06:01,000 And then they came back to us and said, oh, no, the trucks are going to be charged per trip into the zone. 77 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:05,000 You don't get charged coming out of the zone just when you go into the zone. 78 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:06,000 Right. Yeah. 79 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:13,000 And they do provide for some total credits if you're crossing certain bridges or tunnels. 80 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:17,000 This is another, so there are two other issues that are really important to raise. 81 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:21,000 One is there are some total credits that are given. 82 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:28,000 The problem is that does not include the George Washington Bridge, which is we all know is the truck crossing. 83 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:39,000 So the other entrance points from from Jersey and some from the other boroughs do have credits except for the most commonly used truck one. 84 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,000 The other issue is the peak. 85 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,000 So the prices we gave are peak pricing. 86 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:49,000 There is off peak pricing and the discounts for off peak are pretty significant. 87 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,000 I mean, it's a 75 percent total discount. 88 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:52,000 It's significant. 89 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:56,000 There are no toll crossings because it's such a significant discount off peak, but that's fine. 90 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:07,000 The problem is what they consider to be peak is or is nine or I'm sorry off peak is 9 p.m. to 6 a.m. 9 a.m. 91 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:08,000 9 a.m. 92 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:09,000 So there you go. 93 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:10,000 Sorry, 5 a.m. 94 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:11,000 So there's two different periods. 95 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:12,000 Right. 96 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:13,000 That's right. 97 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:14,000 9 p.m. to 5 a.m. on weekdays. 98 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:15,000 Yes. 99 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,000 And 9 p.m. to 9 a.m. on weekends. 100 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:18,000 Exactly. 101 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:25,000 And so that is not exactly the hours or service or time period for commercial vehicles. 102 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:39,000 So even commercial vehicles that could conceivably route in such a way that they could take advantage of that, it doesn't quite fit into their timeframe, you know, making it more likely that they will have to cross during peak times. 103 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,000 Right. 104 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:49,000 And again, you know, they, I think the Traffic Mobility Review Board thought this was going to be a way to incentivize that overnight period delivery again. 105 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:57,000 And we had reached out and had conversations and sent emails explaining to them the trucks don't make the choice. 106 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:04,000 And yet, despite that, I think they continue to believe that this is going to be like that carrot to get the trucks to come in overnight. 107 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:05,000 That's exactly it. 108 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,000 And we tried to explain hours of service. 109 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:14,000 We tried to explain that we don't set the delivery time staging. 110 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:16,000 They didn't, they didn't want to hear it. 111 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,000 And this is, this is where we are. 112 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:26,000 And I think another issue specifically is, you know, DOT, New York City DOT really wants to expand their off-hour delivery program. 113 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:30,000 They've been, they've had this program for some time. 114 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:35,000 It has a decent amount of buying, but they really want to expand it. 115 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:40,000 And there are challenges with that, one of which of course being that trucks don't set their delivery schedule. 116 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:59,000 To that point, especially in this zone below 60th Street, so many of these buildings are unionized, which means that even if the freight hauler and the receiver could come to an agreement of, hey, is it like we want to do this? 117 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,000 We want to make this a little bit better for you. 118 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:02,000 Can we go? 119 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,000 They would have to renegotiate their labor contracts. 120 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,000 So this isn't happening. 121 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,000 It's not, and it, none of it has to do with the trucking company. 122 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:15,000 And still it's like, they think they have this great idea, this great solution. 123 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:19,000 That's not the way that commerce works below 60th Street. 124 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:31,000 Well, and I think the other, the other piece that they're missing in having some conversations with folks on the Traffic Mobility Review Board, they had said, well, wouldn't that discounted rate help incentivize the receiver? 125 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:45,000 To take that delivery overnight, and they're not recognizing that it's not enough to offset how much it would cost them to pay somebody over time or to install some sort of security, like secure entrance. 126 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:53,000 So even with that significant of a discount for overnight, it's still not enough to compensate for the additional cost that it takes to take an overnight delivery. 127 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:54,000 Exactly. 128 00:09:54,000 --> 00:10:03,000 And, and again, you know, we'll talk about some of the lawsuits, but, but a point that we've made from the very beginning from the FONSI is that, you know, it's not just one delivery. 129 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:04,000 Right. 130 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:08,000 Trucks make multiple deliveries and receivers receive multiple deliveries. 131 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:18,000 So when you talk about things like changing times and staffing, it's not just, oh, hey, Joe, can you just go in a little early to take this one package? 132 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,000 Like, that's not how it works. 133 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,000 This isn't your, you know, you ordered something on Amazon. 134 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:29,000 This is this is major deliveries, multiple deliveries every single day. 135 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:30,000 Right. 136 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:40,000 So a couple other key points, too, is if you're using, if you're not using EasyPass, it doesn't appear that the bridge crossing credit will apply. 137 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:50,000 So if you're a non EasyPass, not only are you getting a higher rate to come in, but you're also not getting a discount if you go over a bridge or tunnel that's included in those credits. 138 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,000 So that's another important piece. 139 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:58,000 And then one of the ones that actually I had missed, I can you point it out, was what they call gridlock alert days. 140 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,000 Gridlock alert days, yes. 141 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:10,000 And they reserve the right to charge an additional 25% on top of the existing toll on what they call gridlock alert days. 142 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:11,000 Right. 143 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:20,000 And mind you, it's not, okay, there were a couple of days during the year where you know they're going to be gridlock alert days, you know, right before major holidays. 144 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:24,000 But there are so many gridlock alert days that people don't know about. 145 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:32,000 And the notion that fleets can somehow prep for this well in advance to receive the discount is absurd. 146 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:38,000 And charging more for a gridlock alert day is completely, it's beyond the pale. 147 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:44,000 And it also, none of this came up in the Traffic Mobility Review Board meetings, by the way. 148 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:50,000 There was never, they spent so much time talking about the size of the trucks and the axles and all that. 149 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,000 But nobody said anything about gridlock alert days. 150 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,000 So it's just like, where does this stuff come from? 151 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:05,000 Yeah, that was not, I mean, you and I both watched every single one of those meetings that the Traffic Mobility Review Board had and gridlock alert never came up. 152 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:06,000 Yeah. 153 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,000 So that was definitely a surprise getting into it. 154 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:15,000 So at the end of the day, obviously, we're disappointed, we're very frustrated. 155 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:25,000 They are not really looking at the essentiality of the trucking industry at all as far as any consideration on the tolling that they're providing. 156 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:33,000 We've already talked about the off-peak issue and just how unrealistic it is to think that just that discount is going to incentivize that traffic in there. 157 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:37,000 It doesn't align with ours of service considerations. 158 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:47,000 And I think one of the most frustrating things for us is Zach and I have been working with the city for a long time and they've been talking about these ideas for freight efficiency, 159 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:56,000 whether it's the micro hubs or possibly freight villages, things that they could do that would actually help address the larger trucks coming in and incentivize more of those smaller vehicles. 160 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,000 They haven't implemented any of it. 161 00:12:58,000 --> 00:12:59,000 No. 162 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:11,000 In the meantime, not only have they not done anything to address the efficiency, but they're continuing to make congestion worse by bus lanes and bike lanes and reducing traffic lanes, reducing space at the curb. 163 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:18,000 So their own policies are creating these congestion issues, but they don't want to talk about that part. 164 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:19,000 Yeah. 165 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,000 And I think it's frustrating, right? 166 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:28,000 And we have such a good relationship with so many people in city government and the office of freight mobility and they work so hard. 167 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:34,000 And it always just feels like their work kind of takes a backseat to some of the initiatives like Kendra mentioned. 168 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,000 And it's just like, it's not for a lack of trying. 169 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:41,000 It's just like these things don't happen holistically. 170 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:46,000 So where, you know, hey, let's make outdoor dining permanent. 171 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:57,000 It's not let's make outdoor dining permanent and also make sure that the retailers have enough space for, you know, for loading and unloading or, hey, we're going to do outdoor dining. 172 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:04,000 Let's talk about where we could put a micro hub in this, you know, commercial corridor to make that last mile more efficient. 173 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:09,000 They're all good ideas that are being floated around, but they're siloed. 174 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:16,000 And the things that happen first are like either the enforcement or taxation like congestion pricing. 175 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:27,000 And it is really hard for companies to try to take that sort of big picture approach when this is what's coming at them sooner rather than later. 176 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:40,000 Exactly. And one of the other big concerns is, and we've been saying this from the beginning, this will disproportionately hurt our small business, not just our small trucking companies, but those small businesses that are located within the zone. 177 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:51,000 And in fact, when we had reached out seeking clarification on whether they were going to be charged once per day or multiple times, they had come back and said, no, it's every time they go in in the zone. 178 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:59,000 But their justification for that is they said that their data indicates that three quarters of the truck trips are only once per day. 179 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:04,000 So therefore they feel that we're not hurting the industry, right? They're really only going to pay once a day. 180 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:16,000 Anyways, the part they're missing with that analysis is the trucking companies that do go into the zone multiple times a day are our small, local businesses. 181 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:23,000 The vast majority of trucks coming in once a day are regional haulers over the road haulers. It's not our small, local business. 182 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:30,000 They are the ones that are in and out of that zone multiple times a day. They're the ones that are going to get hurt by it. 183 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:38,000 And then of course, the smaller businesses that are located in the zone that are receiving those multiple deliveries a day are also going to be hurt by this. 184 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:58,000 Absolutely. And I think tying it, tying a little bit into things like freight villages or, you know, one of the reasons why trucks deliver so much more to New York City than freight tonnage national average is because the cost of real estate in New York City is so high 185 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:07,000 that per square foot retailers really can't allocate space for storage. So they need to get those deliveries six days a week, basically. 186 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:15,000 And there's just, it's hard to take that off a truck into something else, you know, per volume. 187 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:30,000 And that is not something that is factored into the equation here for things like this. And it's just like the costs to operate a small business trucking company or retailer are astronomical in the region right now. 188 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:37,000 And there's no relief in sight. You know, it's just, oh, it's going to cost more, it's going to cost more. 189 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:49,000 And I think there's a lack of big picture of it's not just a congestion pricing towing that's hitting these people. There are a host of other violations. There's the cost of labor. There's costs of insurance. 190 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:58,000 There's costs of rent. You know, that small businesses operate on really small margins. Like where is this extra room coming from? 191 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:16,000 Well, and again, to your previous point, they operate in silos. They do not look holistically, which we can get into the lawsuits in just a bit. But that is a lot of what the lawsuits are arguing is there's a larger economic impact here than was taken into consideration. 192 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:29,000 But we'll get there. I think one of the other key points that we've mentioned before is really the biggest problem with this program is the billion dollar mandate. 193 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:47,000 So we talk about, they call it congestion pricing as if it's something that is really intended to address congestion. But in reality, it has nothing to do with congestion and everything to do with raising the billion dollars that was mandated by the legislature so that they can then bond against that billion 194 00:17:47,000 --> 00:18:04,000 dollars to raise the funds for a 15 billion dollar capital plan. So when you start talking about toll credits or exemptions or once a day pricing, every little bit that they give, they've got to increase somewhere else in order to ensure that they're meeting the billion 195 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:08,000 dollars. So one of our biggest arguments is we're subsidizing. 196 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:21,000 We're non-discretionary users of the roads within New York City. We have to be there to make deliveries. So we're ultimately going to subsidize passenger vehicles who by and large have a choice. 197 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:37,000 Yes, exactly. And the idea is that we, it's twofold. One is we want to change behavior, get more people out of their personal vehicles into mass transit. And the second is to then fund the mass transit system, which has so many challenges. 198 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:48,000 But if we're subsidizing a lower rate for cars, we're not really changing behavior. And, you know, to Kendra's point, you can't move freight on mass transit. That's not how it works. 199 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:59,000 Nor is there really money allocated to things like micro hubs or other, you know, sort of freight efficiency modes. It's really just about public transportation. 200 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:11,000 So you're asking the non-discretionary travel to subsidize the discretionary travel under the guise of changing discretionary travel behavior. 201 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:16,000 You know, I'm not the greatest mathematician in the world, but that doesn't make sense to me. 202 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:24,000 No, it does not. It does not. And obviously one of our concerns is let's say they're actually successful in reducing passenger vehicle traffic. 203 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:32,000 They still have to meet the billion dollar toll or the billion dollars that's mandated in the legislation. So what do they do? 204 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:42,000 They're either going to reduce discounts or they're going to increase tolls. And again, as non-discretionary users, we're going to have to pay whatever they put out there. 205 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,000 So that is a really, really big concern for us going forward. 206 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:53,000 Right. Well, tolls everywhere, you know, Port Authority increases their tolls, the three-way increases their tolls, the other MTA crossings increase their tolls. 207 00:19:53,000 --> 00:20:01,000 And then, you know, potential congestion pricing, not having to keep up with the rate of inflation, having to keep up with the rate of a billion dollar mandate. 208 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:09,000 And just quickly, you know, a lot of times when people hear congestion pricing, they think of London and what London did. 209 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:14,000 And I think it's important to talk about what London did because it's very different from what is going to hit New York City. 210 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:20,000 First of all, London made their investments in mass transit before the congestion pricing went into effect. 211 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:26,000 Second of all, London charges lorries, what they call trucks. I just had to get that in there. 212 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:32,000 And cars the same rate, and it's a one-a-day rate. And they're, you know, they've had congestion pricing for a while. 213 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:38,000 So when it rolled out, there were a lot more sort of like zero-mission vehicle subsidies and things like that. 214 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:42,000 They kind of phased a lot of that out. I think there's still some, but they phased a lot of that out. 215 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:47,000 And of course, more most importantly, it really is a traffic management transit plan. 216 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:52,000 So there's no revenue mandate. It's, you know, whatever revenue is generated by the toll, you know, that's great. 217 00:20:52,000 --> 00:21:03,000 And why that's so important is last week, we checked, London's congestion pricing generates about, you know, equivalent American dollars, about $250 million. 218 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:16,000 So London that has perfected this basically only brings in a quarter of what is mandated in New York State law to bring in through this program. 219 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:21,000 Right. Yeah, exactly. Well, I think in part because London truly was looking at congestion, right? 220 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:27,000 And to your point, they made the investments ahead of time so that passenger vehicle users had options. 221 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:38,000 Yeah. And they saw the need to address the freight aspect, you know, and so that's exactly what we're asking for. 222 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:44,000 So I think that's a good segue. Why don't you talk a little bit about the working group and what you guys have been doing. 223 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:48,000 And then we can kind of get into some of the strategies that we're looking at to address this. 224 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:56,000 Yeah, absolutely. So when I think when the traffic mobility review board was formed, we formed a congestion pricing working group. 225 00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:03,000 So this includes TANI members, but also non members and also other industry groups and trade organizations. 226 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:09,000 So, you know, we have the messenger association is involved. Some of the local chambers of commerce are involved. 227 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:16,000 Some of the industrial business zones are really involved. You know, some media and entertainment because it's New York City are really involved. 228 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:22,000 And it's great. And it's really great to talk through ideas together to come up with some of these solutions. 229 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:31,000 That's where a lot of our data points have come from. You know, we are also going to really kick off a very robust data collection process. 230 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:41,000 We're talking to some folks about, you know, the travel and what it costs them, either per dollar or percentage to make a delivery. 231 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:55,000 And then conversely, what does it cost you when you receive a delivery and trying to collect that, that those data points to let, you know, the MTA and the elected officials know that, hey, we're not just talking out loud here. 232 00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:04,000 These are real dollars and cents. And this is how things are going to go up. One of the cool things that came from the working group was what we call the $20 bagel. 233 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:10,000 And that's based on, you know, what it what food and beverage markup typically costs. 234 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:24,000 You know, if you take the congestion pricing, totally rates and put that in your calculations, all of a sudden you could see in that zone and, you know, in New York City at large, a bagel and a small coffee is going to be $20, which 235 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:34,000 you know, as somebody who very much enjoys the the Saturday and Sunday bagel and coffee, not so tenable. 236 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:48,000 No, not a laughing matter, but yes, you're right. And in fact, right after the toll rates had been announced, I saw an interview, and they were interviewing a restaurant owner, it was an Italian restaurant owner. 237 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:55,000 And he hit it. He's like, how much can I charge for a plate of pasta and still think that people are going to come and want to eat at my restaurant? 238 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,000 Exactly. 239 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:01,000 Yeah, so that's it's huge. So we'll talk a little bit about what we're trying to accomplish. 240 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:12,000 And then we can touch on some of the litigation stuff that's happening too. But so we're we're kind of taking multiple strategies as it relates to pushing back on this plan. 241 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:25,000 We are working on a lot of public relations and media and just trying to educate. We were successful through our PR firm and getting a great op ed that was written by Joe Fitzpatrick from Lightning Express. 242 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:30,000 Joe's our current vice chairman. He's also a small trucking company owner, warehousing. 243 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,000 Yeah, he's in the Mid Hudson Valley. 244 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,000 He uses organized labor as well. 245 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:43,000 Exactly. I mean, really just a great piece on how this is going to affect an impact small business and it was picked up by like four or five different news outlets. 246 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:47,000 So we're really trying to push the media front in terms of education. 247 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,000 Legislative strategy. 248 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:59,000 We are going to be seeking legislation to amend the enabling legislation that does then provide trucks with pricing parity with cars. 249 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:06,000 That's going to be a top priority for us this legislative session. We've got our call on Albany coming up on March 4th and 5th. 250 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,000 And it'll be a big piece there. 251 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:15,000 We'll be partaking in the public hearing process and I'm not going to shy away from saying it. It's it's window dressing. 252 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:22,000 Yeah, the MTA has dug their heels in that was pretty apparent during the transportation hearing for the joint budget hearing. 253 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:34,000 That they're they're pretty much set with this tolling and they've been pretty clear like any changes that we make, we're going to have to make increases somewhere else if they offer exemptions or cut back on discounts or whatever the case may be. 254 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:47,000 So they've dug their holes in there. They're their heels in they're going to go through the process. There's four public hearings that have been scheduled and there's a public comment period that's now open through March 11. 255 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,000 Yeah, the 11th. 256 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:55,000 And we'll participate in that. But again, I'm not holding out any hope that we're going to get changed from the MTA. 257 00:25:55,000 --> 00:26:04,000 I do encourage, you know, if you don't want to sit through these these hearings, which believe me, I'm paid to do it and I understand. 258 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:12,000 But you really should submit comments though, because if if nothing else don't make it easy for them to check that box. 259 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:25,000 And also, you know, the fight isn't going to end with the public hearings. The more you're able to sort of collect your information and put it publicly and then something that we can use the better. 260 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:33,000 So I highly encourage just taking some time and submitting some comments. And of course, I'm available if you want to talk through that with me. 261 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:38,000 I'm happy to help with with those comments. It really is important. 262 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:46,000 You could go to the website news.mta.info slash project CBDTP. That's easy to say. 263 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:47,000 They'll be a link. 264 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,000 Just search for central business district tolling. That's the easiest way to get there. 265 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,000 They'll be a link. 266 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,000 We will put a link on with the podcast. 267 00:26:54,000 --> 00:27:00,000 And so the hearings are going to be February 29, March 1 and 2 on March 4. 268 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,000 And there's definitely a joke about Groundhog Day and this being in there. 269 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,000 But I have had enough coffee to come up with that yet. 270 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,000 There you go. 271 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:14,000 I want to reiterate though, I mean, I say that it's window dressing, but there is importance in submitting written comment. 272 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:21,000 I think this is a good segue to the litigation that's out there because it becomes part of the public record. 273 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:31,000 And what we really want to make sure is documented is the economic impact that this is going to have on you as a trucking company, on your customers that receive your deliveries. 274 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:40,000 Because as this legal process plays out, some of that public record could certainly come into play through the litigation. 275 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,000 So if you want to speak to where that's at. 276 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:43,000 Yeah, absolutely. 277 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,000 And it's interesting. 278 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:49,000 We were told this week that there are actually five lawsuits right now. 279 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,000 We're aware of three of them. 280 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:56,000 And, you know, by that, I mean, we've had conversations with people involved in these three. 281 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:00,000 So one is New Jersey is suing. 282 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:05,000 Staten Island has partnered with the teachers union. 283 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:10,000 And then there's a group, there's a civic group and they have some businesses. 284 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:20,000 It's called lower Manhattan, but really it's the five boroughs that, you know, they have a class action from from stakeholders all across the five boroughs who are suing. 285 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:38,000 All these lawsuits are sort of there, they're attacking the issue of the environmental process and the way that was done, which is something that we've raised in the FONZ and we've actually raised it in a New York City Council here and we've raised it a lot. 286 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,000 And it is, it's a very valid argument to be made. 287 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:43,000 Absolutely. 288 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,000 I mean, a program of this scope. 289 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:54,000 It just kind of blows the mind that the federal government said, you only have to do an assessment. 290 00:28:54,000 --> 00:29:01,000 Yeah, you know, versus typically something of this nature where you have both massive environmental and economic impact. 291 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:15,000 They would require what's called a full economic impact or I'm sorry, environmental impact statement, which would have taken much longer would have forced the MTA to go into far more detailed research than they did. 292 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:25,000 But unfortunately, the federal government came back and said, no, you only have to do an environmental assessment, which is a kind of a truncated version of a DEIS. 293 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:31,000 So the five lawsuits actually not only name MTA, but they named federal highway administration as well. 294 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:40,000 So as Zach said, we've made that same argument that they should have had to do the full environmental impact statement. 295 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:45,000 But we're not planning on suing on that. There's already five lawsuits out there. 296 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:51,000 We're planning on being supportive. We may offer amicus briefs to support the argument. 297 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:55,000 But we do get asked often like, well, what are you guys doing? Are you going to sue? 298 00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:00,000 And the best I can say at this point is litigation is not off the table. 299 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:10,000 We are very much trying the legislative route and we're going to do everything we can to try and get that pricing parody into the legislation. 300 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:19,000 But if we are unsuccessful there, you know, certainly discussions about whether or not we have standing as far as litigation are ongoing. 301 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:24,000 So, you know, stay tuned on how that plays out. 302 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:33,000 I think the biggest takeaway though is we really need folks to get involved. I mean, obviously Tanny has this as a top priority for us for this year. 303 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:39,000 But they need to hear from the trucking companies. They need to hear from the receivers. 304 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:46,000 As Zach mentioned, you know, go to the MTA website. It has information, but also keep an eye on Tanny's website. 305 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:56,000 We are working on an action alert that'll be up on our website that you'll be able to very easily find all this information, submit comments, write letters, 306 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:02,000 supporting our legislation once we get that up, as well as submitting comments to the MTA. 307 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:09,000 So just keep an eye on that. It's www.nytrucks.org and you go to our advocacy pages. 308 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,000 It'll be up there hopefully within about a week or so. 309 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:23,000 Yeah, and you know, my email is Zach Zach at nytrucks.org. You know, you have questions on any of this even if you want to connect with some of the lawsuits that we mentioned here today. 310 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:33,000 You know, reach out to me. I know who to connect you with. It really is important that you stay involved and stay vigilant with this because there's still a lot of work that needs to be done. 311 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:38,000 I think even if you don't operate in New York City, keep an eye on this. 312 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:56,000 Yes. Because one of the biggest concerns is if New York City, well, New York and New York City are successful in implementing this program, it's not going to be long that other cities across the state or across the country look at this as well 313 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:02,000 because they're all struggling with revenue and funding for their transit systems. 314 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:20,000 And I think that also presents opportunity to get some of these changes that we're asking for because if trying to take the personal out of it, right, just if this fails in New York City, it will fail around the country. 315 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:35,000 And New York City and the New York State legislature has a very strong incentive to make sure it doesn't fail. But what has been approved will set it up for some pretty serious failure. 316 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:44,000 And they're all watching that around the country. And so you have to make your voice heard. You have to make these points out there publicly. People need to know. 317 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,000 Absolutely. 318 00:32:46,000 --> 00:33:05,000 Thanks for that fun. Obviously, a big issue and I know we've talked about congestion pricing before, but we really wanted to make sure everybody understood kind of where things are at in the process, what the tolling proposal looks like, how to get involved, what we're doing as an association to try and tackle this. 319 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:17,000 And certainly this won't be the last that we're talking about it. Hopefully we're going to keep fingers crossed. Maybe we'll have some good news the next time that we tackle this particular topic. 320 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,000 Absolutely. Absolutely. 321 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:39,000 Okay, well with that, I think that wraps up for this episode. We really appreciate everybody joining us. Be sure to like us, follow us, share us, tell your friends. And we'll see you next time.