I'm Jonathan and I'm left of center.
And I'm Rich and I tend to lean a little bit more
to the right, but the bottom line is, is together,
we try to look for the balance of what it means
to be human in today's world.
All right, let's get started everyone.
Welcome to Living in the Matrix.
I'm Jonathan, this is my co-host Rich.
Say hello, Rich.
Hey everybody, great to be back
and great to have Cleburne back again.
I think this is our third time together, Cleburne,
if I'm not mistaken, right?
Yeah, yeah, third time, thanks guys for inviting me back.
Awesome, absolutely.
So to everyone, just to introduce those
who haven't met Cleburne, this is Cleburne Walker.
Very good friend of ours, we have had some
of the best conversations on this podcast with him.
And Cleburne is one of the most insightful people
I think we've had on, in terms of really understanding
what's going on spiritually and energetically.
And we just thought we'd invite him on today
to have an open conversation.
Welcome brother, it's wonderful to have you back.
What do you guys got going on today?
Like what's coming up in your world at the moment?
So just so you know, we just went
to an ayahuasca retreat two weeks ago.
And on Friday we actually recorded with,
we were just talking about opening the third eye
before we came here.
And Rich actually had an interesting conversation
around your breathing process to open that up.
But he was talking about a process that you had.
Rich, you wanna share that?
Well, obviously we have DMT naturally in our body, right?
So, and going back to what I'm doing today, Cleburne,
it's very superficial, but it is the first
opening weekend of football.
So I'm excited about that.
So I've got that on the background.
So a lot of people have talked about the pineal gland.
Dr. Joe's talked about it.
You can see this pine cone shaped thing
in ancient antiquity, right?
The Assyrians had it, the Egyptians had it.
You've talked about how you activated
through the Christ oil, right?
Through the sacrum and the breathing
and pushing it up into the pineal gland.
I've seen a lot of different people
try to use similar kinds of techniques.
Some involve a lot of heavy breathing.
Some actually just involve more of a clenching.
Can you, and I've seen Breck,
I think try to do it in a different framework
where he does it just more of as a physiological process.
I don't even know if he hits it for something else,
but I saw a gal who, for instance,
came back from Dr. Joe, she's standing,
just kind of hanging out and just showing a person
how you might do that.
And yet you've also talked about using
a particular astrological sign.
So whatever your sign is, your sun sign is,
wait till the moon is there.
So I guess what we're trying to get at is,
can you flesh that out a little bit more in terms of,
because I think by your activating your pineal gland,
you've tapped into some stuff like this antenna.
You've talked about this.
You've got insights and wisdom that come to you
and you impart that.
And it seems like everybody's got
their own way of doing things.
I think the source is big enough for everybody
to tap into it in their own way.
But can you tap into that a little bit more,
describe how this is working for you
and what's been significant in your life
over the last few months since we've chatted last?
That's a big lot of questions.
Yeah, the last one we might have to circle back to,
what's been going on in my world.
But the question you're asking,
how to observe the Christ oil practice,
which is effectively how to,
it's all about returning to union with God, with source,
with becoming one to where your will
and God's will can become indistinguishable.
Like there stops feeling like a separation
between you and God, not because the ego has been
determined itself to be the God of your life
so that you might have a more pleasant worldly experience,
which looks a lot like hedonism and narcissism
and all that kind of stuff.
But how to be more one with God,
which reduces the feeling of that someday
or in some other place or in some other plane of existence.
It's right here, right now, always all the time.
And this illusion of the human experience
is what's fleeting, is what's just being experienced,
but it's not as real as the fact that me and God
are inseparable eternally.
There is no me and God, it's one thing, right?
And then doing that in a way that allows you to be
of service, of surrender, of being something
of an open channel through your lived human experience.
But how to, when people start getting into the pineal gland,
the sacred Christ or practice all this kind of stuff,
this is sort of like them becoming aware
of a higher curriculum through the spiritual school
on the earth plane, right?
If you guys have ever heard me talk about before,
there's kind of some basic levels of ascension.
And on one of them, what happens is people have to realize
they don't change the world, you know what I mean?
The world as they have perceived it,
people tend to not want to feel like
they're leaving things undone or leaving the world
as a mess when what they will eventually start to realize
is that was just a grade level, a level of perception
and experience that remains the same, like a classroom,
like a grade nine classroom, that curriculum stays there
for other people to go through that level of education.
And it's not the curriculum, it's not the world
that changes, it's the people who change
as they move on to the next step.
So a long-winded way to say how to tangibly tap into,
through yourself, how to get into your own Christ oil,
how to open your pineal gland, this starts appealing
to people that are at those higher levels
of spiritual classes in the earth school, right?
Like some things just don't,
you've outgrown too many things.
So you guys just got back from my ayahuasca retreat
here in a second, I'm gonna have to ask you
what you got from that.
The reason why I pointed that out, Cleburne,
is because I had a tangible experience that I connected to,
it was opening my third eye.
Yeah.
And it was very, very profound and powerful.
Okay, do you want to share about it or?
No, I just wanted to give you that context
because that's what started the conversation for me
is that concept of, over the last two years,
we've been learning about the chakras and understanding
that moving up the spine to your crown chakra.
And it's that concept of you're trying to get to here
and that's where your pineal gland is, opening that up,
but your breathing practice was really a process
of making that energized, of pushing up that fluid.
And breathing was part of it,
but it was more a process of opening up
and it was more a process of observing
a time of the month when there is a chemical process
that happens within the body that can serve to
open up different receptors in the brain naturally.
Right?
It's like someone goes in there
and flips on a hundred new light switches
and a bunch of stuff just opens up.
Ram Dass, I think it was, it had a great quote that said,
it's just put you in the room with Christ for a few hours.
I still have not like journeyed or done any of that,
but that's from what I gather from everybody's feedback.
It is, it's not like going and doing cocaine
or something like that.
Yeah, it's a plant medicine that truly opens a pathway
for some beautiful spiritual connection.
And it can be that, it can be like a guidepost
that like points you to the connection.
Some people end up thinking, okay, the plant
or the substance or the medicine or whatever
is the place where I go to feel that connection.
So then they make a false idol out of it.
So this is one area of concern I have for me personally,
just because addiction runs strongly in me
and in my family and all that kind of stuff.
So I've always been very leery about me personally.
Like, I don't know how much I trust myself
to touch things that could become potentially addictive
because I'm like a hyper-focused type of person anyways,
sometimes, so there's a good chance that I would wind up
under a bridge, living under a bridge if I touch things
that could potentially be bad for me.
Off topic, anyways, how to observe it, the Christ.
We've talked about this before.
There's a verse in the Bible that I could pull it up
if you guys want the exact verse.
It's in 1 John 1 22, I think, or 2 22,
but it basically says the anointing you received in Christ
lives in you.
It teaches you everything,
so you don't need anybody to teach you anything else.
Just live in Christ as he taught you to do
and it will teach you everything.
So that anointing that lives in you.
Now, the person who was speaking this
was speaking to a crowd of people
that had likely never actually seen Christ, right?
So although they baptized people,
it doesn't talk much about Jesus anointing anybody.
So who are these people who definitely didn't get anointed
by Jesus because they never met him, right?
So when this is going on,
what anointing that can live in you is he talking about?
And then this ties into a practice that was observed
in ancient Egypt and comedic spirituality
through tons of other like Kabbalistic
and other higher levels of esoteric spirituality.
They get into this.
And then the same thing that you were discussing
when you start looking at physically,
looking at the shape of the brain,
when you look at how certain parts of it look exactly
like the way the Ark of the Covenant is described
and the massive amount of parallels that are going on
between the places of the brain,
the functions of the brain,
and you, so many dots have to connect to overlap.
It's like that part in Iron Man
and the first one where he's in the cave
and he's secretly building the Iron Man suit
when they want him to build a missile
and he's got all of his blueprints laying there.
And the guy's like,
you wanna show me what you're building?
And he's like flatten them on a look.
And when he flattened all the papers out,
then you can see.
So there's a lot of these little dots
that don't look like they're connected
until you like stack them on top of each other
and you're like, oh crap, this, now I see the picture.
So effectively, the human vessel is real
through which we can experience,
but it's not real in the sense that our consciousness,
our soul is existing in eternity
and it is not subject to whatever happens in the world.
The body is temporary, the soul is not, to put it simply.
So what's going on here is only real
for the sake of experience and for a very short while,
but it's not real in the sense that where we reside
before we got here and after we leave here.
So how to tap into that stuff naturally
through your own body, this process
that where your brain secretes a chemical
from around the pineal, from the claustrum,
which is near there, it secretes a process
that moves through the pineal and the pituitary gland.
Now, when you look at the original Trinity,
which is source, which is just God,
and then masculine, feminine, right?
The first initial split.
So the claustrum, we consider that the first of the Trinity
and the masculine, feminine, which is like the pineal
and the pituitary, one of them secretes a milky,
like a white looking substance and the other secretes
like a yellowish substance, milk and honey,
the land of milk and honey.
Okay, and also at this point-
Do we know what those substances are, Cleaver?
Yeah, there's a, one it's like chapter seven of my book
is all about this and again, I make things very simple
and condensed when it's in the book,
but people go all out, like looking at diagrams
and ways in which this is referenced.
You can look it up scientifically.
You can go to Google Scholar and look at peer reviewed
reports and stuff about the chemicals
that these organs produce.
So the reason it's important to observe it
during a certain time of month, I'll get into that,
but effectively from source,
the original split is masculine and feminine, right?
So you could look at the pituitary and the pineal,
which represent the milk and honey,
which also as these parallels begin to look more obvious,
they represent Joseph and Mary, the masculine and feminine.
Right, one of them-
Which one is masculine?
I believe, which one is the, which one is the honey?
I think it's the pituitary gland is the yellow one
and the pineal gland is the white, the feminine one.
That makes sense.
But I might have this backwards
because I'm not fully caffeinated yet today.
But from there, from the reason it has to sort of diffuse
and eventually come back up into one,
this is the parallel of our spiritual journey anyways,
right, like everything is the one
that separated itself into the all
to experience the joy of becoming the one again, right?
So, and just like the story of Jesus came down
to be a family with Mary and Joseph,
eventually returning back to the father,
that's what this process is going to represent.
So I'll just kind of do it chronologically, right?
From the claustrum begins a process
that through the pineal and the pituitary
produces these two chemicals
that match up to the description of milk and honey,
the land of milk and honey, the promised land.
That chemical creates an oil
that secretes through the brain.
Now this is like the Christ,
this is why they call it the Christ oil,
because the journey that it goes through
is similar to the journey of Christ.
It flows down your spinal cord
of which there are 33 vertebrae
and Christ lived for 33 years, right?
Once it goes all the way down into the sacrum,
into the root shock, you know,
down into the lowest part of your spine,
from there it begins making its way back up the spine.
Now this entire process is a two and a half day process.
Like how long was Christ in the tomb?
Three, yep, three days, two and a half days.
Right, and where was he crucified?
On Galgatha, which means?
On the hills, place of the skull.
Place of the skull.
Okay, so as it goes down,
and as this chemical begins to rise again,
up through your 33 vertebrae,
as it passes along, it begins opening up
extra nerve receptors along the spine.
So the spatial awareness within the body
to not just feel everything that's going on in your body,
because there are trillions of cells
within our body at all times,
right from the moment we're born.
We are withholding life and death within us.
Our bodies have a decay rate, they have a growth rate,
cells are being duplicated and dying and being born, right?
Like we are living and dying simultaneously
the whole time we're in this body.
And within us is life and death at the cellular level.
There is autonomous function taking place within us.
There is a universe of existence, of life, right?
Of cells that are making their own choices
to attack white blood cells,
to move nutrients, to carry chemicals.
All this stuff is happening without our awareness.
So increasing these nerve endings
allows our spatial awareness to get a better feel
for what's going on within the universe
of which we are the god of
at this little parallel level, right?
And from there, it will allow you to physically feel
outside of your body, our electromagnetic field
that we produce, you could call it the aura,
but science refers to it as an electromagnetic field,
which scientifically we produce a field.
That's the toroidal field.
Yeah.
Yeah, there's, this is one of those areas, right?
Where quantum science like shakes hands with spirituality
and they're sort of talking about the same thing.
And now our technology has ways to like validate it
in a way that a logical mind can say,
oh, well that makes sense.
And the spiritual mind will say,
yeah, that's what people have been saying
since the dawn of time, right?
So the connection is now able to be observed
without needing much faith.
You can see these things more plainly.
So as that spatial awareness within the body increases,
the ability to feel your energetic field increases,
which comes at play later,
like things like Jesus being able to interact with people,
healing by touching, healing by sending a word,
like having, like the same way I can physically reach out
and move something with my hands,
your ability to use your energetic field to go do things
or feel things or perceive things begins increasing.
And as this oil moves back up through the heart center,
it helps for people who understand
how chakra centers work.
That helps sort of reharmonize those centers
until ultimately moving back into the brain.
And once there, if properly observed,
again, it's like somebody goes in
and flips on just a million light switches.
It's scientifically, it opens up millions of new neurons
within the brain.
So the brain's capacity to serve as a greater antenna,
as a greater receptor is increased exponentially.
And again, this whole process takes two and a half days.
It happens while the moon is passing through your sun sign.
Now, why is that kind of funny, right?
So the moon represents the feminine.
That's the magnetism that affects our tides
and the water and everything.
The sun is the masculine.
It affects the electricity,
like how it heats the earth through radio waves, radiation.
It's the 24 hour daily schedule.
Like a man, the moon is like the 28 day monthly cycle,
like a woman that goes through its phases.
So these two things are required to take place,
which is why during each month, that's why it's important.
Your sun sign, when the moon, whatever phase it's in,
it can be waning, crescent, waxing,
full whatever, it doesn't matter what phase the moon is in,
but when it's passing through your sun sign every month,
that's when your inner alchemical masculine and feminine
is able to produce that new seed, that new Christ oil,
that if observed properly can go through its life cycle
of its 33 years, go up and down its 33 vertebraes
to effectively be, and then people go further into this
as far as like the descent into hell,
which is sort of like the story of where Christ was
while he was in the tomb to go conquer death
and then ascend to eternal life.
And then here in a minute, I wanna circle back to this
about how the 40 days thing works,
how that was such a prevalent thing throughout the Bible.
Purgation, purification.
Yeah.
But for this part, anyways, this is again,
it's in chapter seven of my book and it's easily
YouTubeable, Googleable, science researchable,
all this kind of stuff that there's a physical chemical
process that happens in the body.
The first time I ever heard about this was Jim Carrey.
I saw like a little YouTube.
No, I saw that.
I was gonna ask you about that.
This is the Santa Claus effect.
Yeah, that's another one where there are so many stories
that overlap where you're like, okay, well, you know,
so that's another one, like the path back home, right?
Like the map back to home works for anybody.
Like the Easter eggs are spread out everywhere.
So no matter where you start and what resonates with you,
you can start seeing these little Easter eggs that point
you in a certain direction.
And eventually you can see the same Easter eggs
and all these other spaces.
So then you're like, okay, well, that is like
a common denominator.
That is a truth that's just being told
in this different setting or this different language
or this different mythological story or whatever.
But they all start to stack together.
And yeah, Jim Carrey was the first time I heard it.
It was like a one minute long YouTube short.
And I was like, what?
And then, you know, then I just, all of a sudden
my algorithm decided to cram that down my face.
Like everything I looked at was that topic.
And then when I looked into it more, I was like, okay,
this isn't just some nonsense.
And then I began practicing it a little over a year ago
and that seemed to greatly expedite the rate at which
Cleburne was able to step aside more and just open up more
to be in flow, to be of service, I guess.
So Cleburne, let me ask you this from,
what did that feel like?
In other words, what is that experience
as you're going through it feel like?
And what you talk about being able to be more in flow,
but what was that like?
So the monthly experience.
So I started doing this over a year ago.
I fast, except for last month I didn't,
but almost every single month I do a three day water fast.
This month I did, which just ended yesterday morning.
But what it feels like is a lot.
It's different every month.
It took about six months of practicing at it
and getting a feel for what sort of thoughts
were going through my mind.
What sort of ways in which I was wrestling with myself
or asking like, what are you doing?
Why are you going back and forth
of which voices in my head I'm hearing
and which ones are which and all that kind of stuff.
And anyways, yeah, it took about six months
to really feel it, to really physically feel it kick in.
Thank you.
It's taken me three, I've not felt anything yet.
I'm just going through the motions,
trying to do my best.
So that's part of it.
Going through the motions is sort of part of it,
especially like if you're fasting
or definitely like abstaining from sex in all ways,
even mentally and stuff like that,
like putting energies aside that tether you
to the flesh experience as much as possible.
I like, we have lives,
we have to show up to our responsibilities.
I've got to, we've got work and kids and stuff,
but as much as you could effectively just stop being
all the things you have been in the habit of being
and leave a ton of space to say in this space,
I invite the Holy Spirit, invite God,
invite however you wanna see it.
I would like the space to be filled with that, with God,
whatever, however you'd like to feel about it.
But I am carving out a space and I'm gonna leave it empty,
which feels really weird
because most of us have a hard time
not filling all of the empty spots in our calendar,
filling all the empty moments in our day.
Like, especially now, like culturally,
we have a hard time being bored, right?
So imagine being bored and hungry, maybe horny,
maybe feeling like you're being lazy,
maybe wondering why you're doing this
or is it stupid or whatever,
and just leaving everything on pause for a period of time
so that your body can put more energy
towards what it's doing instead of also digesting
all the new food you're putting it in
and also dealing with the stress hormones we add
by thinking about this project we're working on
or remembering this time we did something super cringy
when we were a kid and all the little things
that we do in our head that trigger chemical responses
within our body constantly, right?
Like, you know, and science shows us too, right?
Like if you're on a VR machine
and you think you're on a high line,
you know, your body will display the same chemical reaction
as if you were really somewhere in danger, right?
Like if you sat down and really imagined
like a tiger running in the room and chasing you,
you would start to feel the physical reaction
of fight or flight, just like it was really happening.
The body doesn't know the difference
because the brain is the reality, it's the truth center.
The brain may receive data
that it perceives through the senses,
but it's ultimately still not real, right?
Like I can see you guys right here,
but if I close my eyes and I don't see you,
I still start to like put a picture in my mind
and that's what my emotions and my reactions go off of.
So all that to say, our brain constantly creates
chemical reactions in our body.
So how can we stop that?
How can you pause that long enough
to let everything truly like settle and leave a space
for the Holy Spirit to come in
and like do like a factory reset almost, right?
Like turn it off and back on sort of thing.
And that takes practice to leave a space
for no reason other than just to leave a space
and then have no expectations for what's gonna come from it
or when it's gonna come from it.
Now that being said,
especially for the first handful of months,
it's pretty important to start and end with the meditation
and the first one to start with a meditation
that is sort of opening this three-day holy period,
this ceremony with an intention.
Whatever it is, totally personal to you,
whatever your intention is, right?
Like I hope by the end of this,
I figure out how to make a million dollars.
I hope by the end of this,
I figure out how to know your will more clearly,
Father, somebody who's like super,
in that space may look at it, right?
Like whatever your intention is,
I don't know what my intention is.
I just know I wanna grow closer to the divine
and I believe this is a path through which that can happen.
Whatever the intention is, I wanna find a spouse, whatever.
Want my child to heal who's battling a terrible sickness,
right, like give it up.
And then from that moment on,
literally don't think about it again.
Don't think about it.
Because every time we think about something,
we're checking in on it,
which is looking for confirmation,
which is saying I really don't know yet until I see proof.
Which is-
You're reinforcing the doubt.
We're reinforcing the doubt.
Every time we check in on it, right?
Like at no point that I always draw back to Jesus
as like the ultimate example of the highest form
of oneness with God while here on the earth, right?
Because that's the whole point of that story.
And it's for people who don't like that,
they can find that exact same story
told throughout centuries and other religions.
But we live in the Christ timeline right now.
Just look at our calendar.
Like we live in the age
of the Christ consciousness timeline.
So that's the centerpiece for which we can all draw back to
and see like an ineffable template through which to follow.
But at no point did he like say a prayer
and ask for somebody to be healed
and then be like, look around and be like,
is it gonna work?
And then when they did it,
and then when they woke up,
was he like, yes, totally worked.
And like cheer about it and act all pumped up, right?
It was just like, he didn't ask for it.
He didn't wait to see if it was gonna happen.
He commanded it.
So that's sort of like what this is.
When we're starting your meditations
and opening with an intention,
we're not at a place yet to be able to command
your material world to change instantly.
The reason for that is because if you could do that,
or if you did do that,
it would make you think you were crazy.
If right now, if you looked at your lamp and said,
turn into a bottle and it did it,
you wouldn't think, of course,
that's what would happen.
I'm a master of my reality.
You would think, holy shit, what else have I been missing?
What does this mean?
That the scope of what you had previously perceived
to be real would be so busted wide open.
We would be like Peter on the water who sinks.
We were doing it for a minute,
and then we look around and be like,
this is information overload.
And we go back to what we felt
was the way things should work, right?
So this process speeds up the rate
at which you can accept
how malleable your experience of reality can be.
So again, starting with an opening intention,
setting your intention,
and then don't think about it again.
Even when it tries to pop up, just shut it down.
Don't argue with yourself.
Don't look in on it.
Don't look for validation or wrestle with the fact of,
am I worthy of it?
Am I guilty of anything that would make this not happen?
Is it selfish?
Is it righteous?
None of that shit.
Just set the intention.
Just set the intention in the meditation done.
And then for the remainder of people.
Can I interject real quick here,
Yeah, yeah.
because I like where you're going with this
and definitely in letting go with Dr. Hawkins,
the idea, and even in Vedic thought,
the idea of grasping and reaching
and obsessing over things.
That's how you lose them, right?
We've gotten down that path.
But in meditation, most folks in meditation,
and these are solid practices,
they think of having a thought is not a bad thing.
Your thought is not your mind.
So can you help me understand?
Because I think there's a difference
between having a thought and letting it go.
And it's out there, right?
They consider it, you've got a disco ball.
Here's the analogy that is.
Here's a disco ball and you've got these thoughts.
Let them like pretend they're snowflakes
so they go to the ground.
So you don't give them any power.
But there's a big difference between lusting
or obsessing over that intention.
Right.
And a dwelling in your mind versus like it's there,
but I shouldn't beat myself up because it pops up.
I just let it kind of go away.
I mean, how do you get to that point?
Do you understand where I'm coming with this?
Because in meditation, people are like,
don't let your thoughts kill you
because that's not who you are.
In fact, acknowledge the thoughts.
There's a meditation where you've just got
them sitting out there
and they're just kind of swimming around out there
and you're not dwelling on them.
They're just, okay, yep, there's some anger there.
There's some fear, there's some trepidation.
And you've got it kind of floating around.
But do you understand where I'm going with this?
I'm just trying to figure out
how you can get to that space of,
that even the thought of it is not even there.
Like even in like almost, if you could say this thought is,
I'm not freaking out about it.
I'm not giving it any weight, but it just popped up.
And you see what I'm saying?
Yep, totally.
So yeah, not forming an attachment to thoughts
as they come up, observing them,
maybe even seeing if there's something they need you to see,
that there's something those thoughts need to tell you
or reveal to you.
And then sort of, yeah, like you said,
letting them pass, letting them go,
bringing your awareness just back to
the stillness you're in or whatever.
But what I'm saying is for that opening ceremony
at the beginning of this three day Christ oil practice,
as you set your intention after the meditation's over
for the remainder of the two or three days.
Three days.
Yeah, don't like in your conscious moving about
waking daily life, don't let your intellect,
don't let our thinking mind draw back to it.
Don't let it become a focal point for these three days.
It was said, it was dropped off in the astral,
it was laid at God's lap and then leave it there.
And then during these three days,
if somebody's fasting, if they're abstaining
from different things,
if they're observing extra cold plunges or saunas
or whatever, salt baths or different types
of meditations throughout the day,
doing breath work, doing yoga, whatever they're gonna do
that they feel like they're prioritizing
their connection to spirituality during this time.
And then at the end, at the end of it,
when the moon is about to pass through your,
to exit your sign, 10 or 15 minutes before,
sit into a meditation long enough to where you'll kind of be
in that theta state where you'll be in that relaxed,
settled state.
And then just from that point,
be open to receive whatever it is
towards the tail end of it.
Yes, breathe intentionally.
There's a couple of practices you can do
to add pressure to the pineal gland
that helped to declassify it or decalcify it.
Decalcify, yeah.
Yeah, or activate it.
Once you feel it really kick in,
I don't know that you need to do it anymore after that,
but it takes a few months of getting a personal feel for it.
There's all kinds of little tactics,
all kinds of little ways you can do it,
but it's meant to be a personal experience, right?
Just like a workout program, I guess.
Like somebody could give you an outline of a routine
that's a good idea, but you're gonna go in
and eventually figure out different little nuances
of how your body likes to move,
how you like to set your pace as you go through it
and all this kind of stuff.
And a template is meant to get you started,
but it's ultimately meant to be something that's personal
and for you and only you, right?
And that's kind of how this practice is.
As far as after you've done this a few times,
how do you meditate in that space
where you're not attached to your thoughts?
So the same way I was talking about the way
that the body within it has so many different functions
happening that we don't think about,
like when I meditate, and chapter three in my book
starts with a somatic meditation of sitting into the body
in a way where you realize you,
whatever you identify, however you think
that the I am part of you is a consciousness
that's in the body that has its own consciousness, right?
You can sit and observe your breath.
Your body will breathe for you.
Your cells going all through your body
are repairing things and healing things
and keeping things running for you
so that you might experience
through the body's five senses.
So I'm in the body, I'm one with the body,
but I'm clearly not the body.
Just like I'm in God, I'm one with God,
but I'm not God, right?
I might be a child, but I'm not the father
from this level of perception.
So it's similar.
So sitting into the body
and gaining greater awareness of the body
and how you are tethered to its senses and its functions,
but it's not totally you,
will start to make it easier to feel yourself as one
with the divine, like as one, but anyways.
I call it empathizing with God
in that Rich and I have this conversation
probably over the last two years,
about two years ago now, probably here this month.
I started a practice of acknowledging
there is no separation from God.
And the best way to get into that flow for me
is to empathize, like how does God feel about me?
From God's perspective of love, there is no separation.
So how do I place myself there?
That's what I call empathizing with God.
It's putting myself in God's shoes,
which is where I come from,
but also seeing the dichotomy of how God sees Jonathan,
my avatar, and realizing that yeah, there is no separation,
but my body feels separated
because I've lived an entire life as Jonathan.
And so as I empathize with God, I remove that connection.
And I think that connection eventually,
this is what I think happened in our ayahuasca retreat,
is it opens the pineal gland, which is a third eye,
and you feel that connection come through.
Like we had some pretty powerful experiences
of removing that connection or that disconnection
and kind of closing the gap.
But most people grow up with a sense of,
no, I am not God, I am totally separate than God.
And that's a journey for a lot of people
to kind of close that chasm.
That's everyone and everything's journey, right?
Yeah.
Like some aspect of God was chucked as far away
from knowledge of self as source as could be.
And then it moves through infinite life cycles
until reaching sort of the human experience,
which is the bridge between the material and the divine.
And then from here, we can start to experience ourselves
as one with God, but knowingly able to experience, right?
We're not like the elements of the earth,
we're not like fire and dirt, we're not like animals.
You know what I mean?
Like creatures that are observantly less self-aware,
if you will.
They don't have a prefrontal cortex,
that's one of the differences.
Yeah, they're just functioning on autopilot, right?
Like lions and wildebeests in Africa today
are doing the same shit they were doing 4,000 years ago
versus human development does advance, does evolve, right?
And that's by design.
And we're able to see that so that we can look
at ourselves and realize there's an evolutionary aspect
to us and it's not just about our technology
and what we do at the human level and at the earth level,
but it ties into the fact that we are here
to be the bridge between the corporeal
and the ethereal, right?
And the reason, let's think of it this way.
If you were original source, all there was
was just your self-aware,
your conscious self-awareness, right?
You were all there is and nothing else exists
except just your awareness.
That might be peaceful for a minute
until it started to feel boring.
And then how long might it,
until it started to feel almost lonely, right?
So again, and the creator created things in which order?
Like a big mush of things formed into an order,
formed into what we know as the loading dock, right?
Like the stage was set, all the plants, animals,
the earth, the waters, everything kind of in a certain order
from broader to finer.
And then the final thing of creation was humanity.
And then through our experience in earth,
through our ability to experience duality,
the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
so that we may be as God's.
So as we are dropped off in this classroom,
where from that point, God only kind of interjects
every once in a while when there needed
to be a big course correct.
From that point-
Yes, of course.
Yeah, so from that point, as you noticed
that the consciousness of mankind offers the ability
to stay the same, to fall into degradation, to funnel up.
It's always there across what we currently observe
as a timeline, the same themes for human possibility
have always and seem to always exist.
Like you can make of life whatever you want to
from a spiritual conscious character level.
And then from there, as people choose to lean more
into the revolution to deny their baser instincts,
to deny their physical impulses,
their desire to like be hateful, to be violent,
to be impulsively lustful, all these sort of things,
to give into vices as people choose to move
through right action in the world, through good character,
through these applications that lend themselves
to spiritual maturity.
Eventually people get to that point
where they transcend the human experience,
much like Christ did when he left.
And was not just a human anymore, right?
People couldn't touch him the same.
And he mentioned when you are in heaven,
people won't be married like they are on earth.
They'll be like the angels of heaven,
which is existing in a different level
than just base physical union.
People will have that sort of inner harmony
of masculine feminine, that inner androgyny.
It's the two should become one.
Yeah, but and each individual will be not in need
of a companion because it's no longer about procreation.
It's about existing at a different level.
So that imagine the creator creates all these things,
creates all these animals, all this stuff, that's great.
Now what do I have?
Well, if I make some children, eventually they may grow up
and be like an equal, so then I won't be alone.
It's like the most layman's way
to kind of dumb down that concept.
So as humanity is the bridge
between the corporeal and theorial,
we reach before getting all the way back into total oneness
where there is literally nothing else except the one.
At those higher levels, there's a community of very,
I don't like the word enlightened,
but very evolved expressions of consciousness
that can exist in a sense of community
that allows for that fulfillment of connection
that we are all born with, right?
Like that we're all born with this desire for connection.
God saw that it wasn't good for the man to be alone.
So he made a helpmate, right?
Like the best that I can feel is that this all also stemmed
from God desiring companionship to a degree.
So how can you have a companion with somebody
that can't see you on your level,
that can't speak your language,
that can't understand what you understand, right?
Like I can tell some jokes and have some laughs
with my kids when they're three,
but I can't have the same conversations with them
that we can have, right?
I can't have the same conversations with somebody
that maybe you guys and your spouse
can have the best conversations, right?
Because you are able to connect in every level,
on every way and have no need to hide anything
because you've seen everything, right?
So an entire society of people that have collectively
absorbed all of the possibilities
that can be experienced at the human level.
So moving to that place where they're able
to perceive telepathically, to heal instantly,
to be able to be seen telepathically
because they have nothing to hide or be embarrassed of
or to feel a need to coerce an outcome
through manipulation or anything like that.
They're just totally able to be seen, right?
Like now imagine Christ, he's like,
look, you guys at this level are just gonna crucify me
and I'm not even gonna fight you over it.
But where I'm going from here,
the people that will be with me will behave,
will be operating much differently.
They will be like I am.
They will not be like I hope we could all be here.
I don't change you.
I hold true to my nature, which takes me somewhere else.
And eventually everybody kind of makes their way there also.
And then at that place, there's this community
that is much more God-like, much more Christ-like
and existing in a very fulfilled manner of connection
before kind of finishing those final levels
back into oneness with source.
Well, I think that's the thing that,
to me, one of the most important things
I realized this year is the Garden of Eden
is not just about the tree of knowledge.
It's also about the duality split
between masculine and feminine.
And each human being lives in one of those frames
as a dominant pattern.
I'm either dominant masculine or dominant feminine.
And Christ consciousness is the merging of the two.
It's coming into terms with-
It's balance.
Yeah.
And that's what we've talked about a lot this year, Rich,
and I think that's what we're experiencing right now.
Right.
I think the masculine has waged war
for 6,000 years around that time.
And we're now shifting into a reality that,
hey, it's gotta be balanced.
And we've got social media,
so everybody's having millions of conversations around it
of what it means to be masculine and feminine.
And Christ consciousness is coming along
and saying, well, guess what, people, it's both.
You are meant to have both in balance.
Yeah.
And I think that's where we're at.
One of the things that I wanted to bring up though, Cleburne,
because what you were just describing earlier
seems to be like painting the Gnostics
as actually being right.
So the Gnostics came along
in the first or second or third century.
And there were these Greeks for a long time.
And so their idea was,
and one of the reasons why a lot of the Gnostics
rejected Jesus coming in the flesh
is because they said flesh is evil, right?
So you've got a spirit is good and flesh is evil.
The demiurge is this emanation of the one source,
like Aristotle had the uncaused cause or the prime mover.
And so you had pure goodness.
And then in their emanations of creation,
things got worse and worse and worse and worse.
So one of the things that were brought up is
Christ could not have come in the flesh
because of course that's evil.
He only had the appearance of being in the flesh.
And John in his epistles said,
that's what Antichrist is.
Antichrist is somebody who says
he didn't come in the flesh.
Then you've got this idea of a lot of Christians saying,
hey, when we go to die, we're just gonna go into heaven.
We're gonna be up in the clouds.
It's just gonna be a state.
And then a lot of current theologians,
including Antichrist say, no guys,
it's gonna be a new heavens and a new earth.
God isn't destroying anything.
He's actually bringing Jerusalem back.
He's bringing heaven and Eden back physically
to this planet.
We're gonna have resurrected bodies.
But what I'm getting at through all this idea is
it is about spirit ultimately, isn't it?
Cleburne, we're ultimately, these spirits are eternal.
Our souls are eternal.
This is what passes through time.
And we've gone through these avatars
and iterations of experience.
So which one is it?
I'm a little confused in that regard.
At the end of this, I'm gonna touch on how you mentioned
that there's social media
and we're having millions of conversations.
That's an expression of where the collective consciousness
is currently at that we're this close to existing
at a mutually agreed psychic level of communication.
Everything's happening faster, instantaneously
and more openly, which is why we're moving quicker
and quicker and quicker.
Time seems to be moving much faster, right?
Our consciousness is not existing at the slower
in the mud pace it used to.
So what you're talking about,
there are a lot of people that are still trying to make sense
in their logical mind that can easily be tricked, right?
Like I just shared a few videos
on my Instagram yesterday about this.
Just there are endless studies
that you can watch yourself be tricked
in real time by yourself, right?
Like you all seen the videos
where somebody's saying something
and then there's a script on a screen and you read it
and you hear what you're reading.
And then they change the wording and the audio is the same.
What's being said is the same,
but your brain will hear what the words say, right?
So there's all kinds of stuff like that.
So trying to make sense of the divine
through our five physical senses is dumb.
We already know that we can only perceive a tiny fraction
of the observably known light and sound waves in existence.
Right, like if I walk outside and I stick my hand up,
I can feel the heat of the sun on my palm.
I'm not touching the sun directly,
but something between the sun and me
is touching right now.
There's something that is reaching across time and space
that is allowing us to be connected.
I can feel the heat of it, right?
So that thing that my eyes can't see, but my hands can feel,
that is what we need to start being able to accept
that we can see just not with these eyes.
As our ability to feel our aura,
our electromagnetic field increases,
we will be able to see the field of which reality is.
Perceive the field, yeah.
You're actually seeing it with your third eye,
if you would, yes.
Yeah, so the people that are like,
how do we get from here to there?
Real quick, this is Jacob's ladder, right?
He went to sleep, he had a vision of a ladder,
angels coming and going, right?
There are constant steps that are locked, right?
Like that is a very simple way to imagine it.
There is some perceivable link
that takes every tiniest step from this level
to the next level to the next, between here and the divine.
The story of Christ, the person of Christ
is that ultimate expression where,
as the Bible is the story of the evolution of consciousness,
we're in the early Old Testament,
man and God were like a mirror, right?
So man was like at the earliest level,
from the ground, from the thorns in this thistle,
by the sweat of your brow, your work,
and this is for your sake,
mankind's consciousness started right here.
So since we were here,
and since mankind and God are always a mirror,
God was so far away,
and it was this divine thing that's so much better than us,
or so judgmental of us, and so like,
right, my name is Jealous, like what kind of-
Jealous God, yep.
It's pretty egotistical.
That seems like a match for man, right?
Like to think of at that level.
And then we have Jacob,
who has a story about Jacob's ladder.
He wrestled the angel at Peniel,
wrestled an angel all night until you bless me.
I'm not letting go until you bless me.
And they asked the angel, what's your name?
And the angel said,
well, where is it that you're asking me?
And so he got his blessing.
He said, this is Peniel,
and the sun shone on him, right?
So that's a story about a man who wrestled with spirituality
until the thing that can't be explained
made itself clear to him, and the light hit him.
His Peniel gland was open.
He was blessed at Peniel, right?
That's what that story is talking about,
like waking up, the story of Moses asking, who are you?
And God said, I am.
Now go and tell them, I am sent you.
That's gathering the ability to speak on your own authority.
I am, I am, Sidney, I'm here, let my people go.
There's a whole other story
about the crossing of the desert.
We'll get into that one.
But effectively, Christ is the angel.
Christ is that point, whereas mankind was here
and God was here, and Abraham's like, God's telling me,
I gotta sacrifice my son.
He's playing these games with me just to see how loyal I am,
but I am.
And as mankind was moving up, now it's like, you know what?
That was my dad.
I'm gonna wrestle with an angel.
You give me a blessing, right?
And then there's Moses.
It's like, I don't know what's going on,
but I am going to free my people.
And as that happens, how does God's behavior change?
It keeps getting closer and closer to man,
more compassionate, more willing,
until they meet in Jesus.
And then it becomes hard to tell which is which.
Is he a man or is he God?
And then from that point,
what is God's involvement with humanity
for the whole rest of the time after Jesus came?
God was like, this was the example.
This is where we become one.
And from here, there hasn't been a big need
for any more stories of floods and firebombing Babylon
and all that kind of stuff.
So that is effectively it.
The story of the Elevator of Consciousness.
We start here, we perceive God as somewhere separate.
The gap closes and closes and closes
until you have Jesus, which is both.
Was here, was only here as a metaphor.
It doesn't matter how people look at it.
What matters is the entire world in which we live
is revolving around that centerpiece
through which everybody can draw back to
as the ultimate template of what we are becoming.
And that is Christ Consciousness.
I think we're entering into an age
where the barriers between the two
are dramatically being rendered unusable.
It's like, it's virtually, like people are waking up to this.
I think this is what a lot of people are waking up to.
Cleburne, you are always one of our most fascinating guests.
I appreciate you so much for coming on with us today.
And Rich, thanks for being here too.
I know you were feeling a little sick.
Yeah.
Again, you always have an open spot here, brother,
because I think you're one of the few voices
that I see consistently going back to love and truth,
but mixed with a really deep understanding of science
and how the body works.
And I appreciate having you on
because you have such a deep sense of connectivity
to these ideas.
So thank you for joining us.
Yeah, thanks, yes.
And Cleburne, also just thank you
for the additional edification.
I didn't try any fasting prior.
By the way, my times have shifted.
I used to be in the early part of the month,
back in, let's say July, and then all of a sudden in August,
it moved to like 22nd.
So it's really weird.
It's, I'm like, what's up with that?
I gotta wait longer.
So-
Yeah, our calendar doesn't follow the moon,
like previous cultures in history,
like the ancient Hebrews were a moon culture, right?
Of course.
That's what like Sabbath was.
Sabbath was sundown to sundown
because their day started at sundown, right?
They were a moon culture and all this stuff.
So the moon moves through a 27 and a half,
a 28 and a half day cycle.
Our calendars are 30, 31.
So yeah, it starts like, you know,
it doesn't line up on the same days each month,
but the moon is the, you know,
like the calendars and the clock we made up.
And if God has such a thing as a clock and a calendar,
it would be the stars and the moon,
which in Genesis one chapter, chapter one, verse 11,
God said, let there be lights in the firmament for signs
and for seasons and for years
and to divide the day from the night, but for signs, right?
That's how-
The Magi.
The Magi, that's how sailors used to, you know,
get across the oceans and stuff like that.
So just culturally, we have stopped looking at the stars
in a wholesome natural way,
like a way in which we were meant to be connected
to the way things operate.
It's not because we've lost our way,
but like you said, right now,
we're having conversations at such an expanse,
like the rate at which we're shifting
is about to be like almost instant.
The first time we talked, I mentioned that,
you know, six months from now,
the way in which you experience the world,
the things that are of importance to you or whatever
won't look anything like it did at that point.
And I don't know how much that held up
in y'all's world or anything,
but mine is wildly different
than where I was existing six months ago.
The pace at which time just seems to fly by
stopped making sense in like 2019, I guess.
It's just zooming right by at this point.
How's it already almost 2025, but-
I know it has done that.
Yeah, but I think everybody's in a pregnant pause right now
waiting for something.
I think everybody's like, something's gotta change.
There's- I can't believe you just said-
It does feel like that.
Yeah, I can't believe you just said pregnant.
That's, you know, but again, that's like the,
so you remember how the first time we chatted,
we were talking about how the word matrix comes from,
literally comes from the Bible and it means womb.
And if you think about that,
when we were in our mother's womb forming, taking shape,
once we reach maximum capacity for that womb,
we have to come out, right?
When our head starts poking through,
we call that crowning.
Crowning.
Now in Christianity, we call it being born again.
In Eastern religions, once your crown chakra opens,
that's the same thing.
So when you are born again,
is the same as when your crown chakra opens.
Crowning, crown, right?
That's kind of what's happening.
So in this womb that we've been in,
this womb of the human experience,
many of us have reached term.
We are at term, we are crowning, right?
Like we're birthing into another level of experience.
And it's many people all at once.
This is the second coming of Christ.
The coming on the clouds,
which was the colloquialism that was a military term
that meant when you're on guard at a city wall,
and you saw people invading,
if there was a bunch of them and they were coming fast,
they would kick up a lot of dust.
So you would, clouds of dust, right?
So you would go down and report and say,
hey, these guys are coming
and they're coming on the clouds,
which meant a big intentional force is heading our way.
So when Jesus comes back on the clouds,
it just means like in a big way, right?
So that is spiritually what's been sweeping
over so many people.
So many people are at term spiritually,
their crown chakra is opening to allow them to be born again.
And the collective consciousness of society,
just like a cell in the body,
starts to duplicate all the coding within it,
and then it splits into two, right?
So sometimes it's an exact duplicate,
and then one dies and the other lives.
Sometimes, like in the womb,
one cells, they form and they split,
and then one starts to become part of a bone,
and one starts to become part of a muscle, right?
They become a different thing.
So the collective consciousness of society right now
is truly doing that where a lot of us are existing
in this space where we are existing,
where the things that are important and of value to us
is this way.
And there's gonna be a whole other little pocket
that just, we don't perceive where they go,
what they do, how that works.
Yeah, this is a very strange time to be alive.
It's one of the richest, most interesting times to be alive.
I think we are in, I've told Richness,
I think we are in an apocalypse.
And I think the apocalypse is the unveiling.
And for those that are masculine dominant,
we've been in a 6,000-year age of masculine dominance,
and it's gonna shift dramatically.
And for those who get stuck there, it's gonna be awful
because it's gonna be this experience of like,
wait a minute, how do I make room for the feminine?
Because Jesus, the Christ consciousness of Jesus said,
we're in grace, people.
Like stop worrying about it, we're in grace.
There's this thing called grace,
but it's taken us really 2,000 years for the church
to kind of acknowledge grace.
Like I grew up and that shift is almost like a call bullshit
and say, okay, people, we need to be about grace
because that's what empowers the Christ consciousness.
And I think it's showing up all over the place
where people like, what's going on in Israel,
which always captures my attention.
Just even in the United States,
which sort of the dominant masculine kind of idea,
it's crumbling in a really interesting way.
So the matrix is dying.
It is, yeah.
Yeah, it's dying.
Cleaver and you are always an amazing guest.
I appreciate you brother.
Thank you for coming here today.
Rich, any final words?
No, I'm good with that last bit
of just about the details behind things.
The fasting and the intentionality at the beginning
is gonna be a new one for me.
So I'm hoping to dive into it this month.
I really appreciate how practical,
how tapped in you are spiritually,
but at the same time, how practical,
I think you wanna make this in your book.
I can just tell the intentionality that you're giving it
is to say there's a lot of crazy ephemeral stuff
that is a lot of research.
You've talked about thousands of years
of different things, of practices,
but you're bringing that to something that can be useful.
And I love where you're going.
It's because people can spend their whole life
becoming archeologists and historians and all this stuff
and trying to intellectualize their way to God,
but we can establish in two minutes
that the brain can't be trusted anyways.
So how do you really connect with God?
We've gotta shut up and just sit still.
So that's it.
Anytime I see a door opening,
it starts pointing to a lot of evidence
that gives my brain permission.
Some people are like, oh, there's some evidence.
I need to study further,
but how long do you have to go until you say,
okay, wait a minute.
I've seen enough that confirms I can touch,
I can be in the embrace of God right now.
How do I do that?
That's it.
So it's a process of going inward
to stop looking out at the hologram
and start moving inward into that connection of oneness
with the great I am.
That's what it's really all about.
I love it.
Yeah.
Cleaver and Walgreens people,
he's always one of our most fascinating guests.
I love it.
To all of our listeners out there,
this has been another wonderful episode
of Living in the Matrix.
We always talk about really important subjects.
That's the thing that I love about our podcast the most.
Cleaver and thank you, Rich.
It's good to see you brother.
To all of our listeners,
please comment and let us know, reach out.
We'd love to hear from you.
And follow us on Instagram, livinginthematrix.
It's the weekend here.
This is a special episode on Sunday.
Cleaver and thank you.
And to everybody out there, much love.