1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,500 I'm Jonathan and I'm left of center. 2 00:00:02,500 --> 00:00:06,000 And I'm Rich and I tend to lean a little bit more to the right. 3 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,000 But the bottom line is, is together we try to look for the balance 4 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,500 of what it means to be human in today's world. 5 00:00:15,500 --> 00:00:17,000 So let's get started. 6 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,000 Welcome to Living in the Matrix. 7 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,500 I'm Jonathan. My co-host Rich is not here today. 8 00:00:21,500 --> 00:00:23,000 He's in fabulous Greece. 9 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:24,500 So I'm a little jealous. 10 00:00:24,500 --> 00:00:27,000 Today we have a fabulous guest. 11 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:32,000 And I found her because I was reading a book 12 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:37,000 and her name was mentioned as part of some work in psychology today 13 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,000 for an article around men's mental health. 14 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:44,000 And I just, I read the article and was really kind of blown away. 15 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,000 And I thought, let's invite her on. 16 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:47,000 And she said, yes. 17 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:48,000 So welcome, Karima. 18 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,000 It's a pleasure to have you. 19 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:51,000 Thank you. 20 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,000 I'm excited to be here. 21 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:54,000 Absolutely. 22 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:58,000 So let's start with the article. 23 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:03,000 Men need more than eye spas and podcasts. 24 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:08,000 Help our listeners understand the point and intention of the article 25 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,000 because I'd love to dive into it with you. 26 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:19,000 Well, the article came to me and my co-author Mark Schellbach. 27 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,000 When we were grappling with thinking about, 28 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:27,000 okay, there's this culture right now of ice baths and podcasts. 29 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:32,000 And that tends to be where a lot of men stop. 30 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:36,000 They can do this amazing work of, you know, 31 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:40,000 sitting in an ice bath for and keep, you know, 32 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:44,000 doing their time limits and how long they can stay in it. 33 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,000 And they're willing to do that kind of discomfort work. 34 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:52,000 But part of me was like, what about the emotional discomfort 35 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:53,000 that we're all in? 36 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,000 Like, how long can you sit in that? 37 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,000 And so we started playing around with that. 38 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:03,000 And we really wanted to create an invitation for men to try 39 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:09,000 applying those skills to their emotional world and their inner world. 40 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,000 And so what did you, did you do research for the article 41 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,000 or was it kind of an encapsulation of what you would learn? 42 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:21,000 It was an integration of so many facets of what I do. 43 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:27,000 Okay. So what would, what would you consider beyond the ice bath 44 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,000 and podcasts, because I believe men are attracted to those two things. 45 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,000 One, because they're both very physical. 46 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,000 I've learned the more that I listen and do this, 47 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,000 the more that I call my own bullshit. 48 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,000 And because it's recorded, like I have it out there. 49 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:42,000 My ideas are out there. 50 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:48,000 So I can't be as, it requires a lot of integrity to do a podcast. 51 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:52,000 And ice baths are that, that hard physical thing. 52 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,000 So what's, help us see beyond that of what you're talking about. 53 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:04,000 Okay. So I work with a lot of men in therapy 54 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:10,000 and I almost consider it like doing weight classes 55 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,000 when they're doing, working with their emotions. 56 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,000 I love shadow work. 57 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:20,000 I love this, the idea of the shadow is that, you know, 58 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,000 there's parts of ourselves we're not willing to see 59 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,000 and there's positive shadow and negative shadow. 60 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:30,000 Positive shadow are the amazing parts that we don't see in what we're doing. 61 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,000 And then, you know, negative shadows, things we're trying to hide, 62 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,000 you know, might make us afraid. 63 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:38,000 And the more we can tolerate discomfort, 64 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:43,000 the more we are willing to take down our armor and our masks 65 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:47,000 and our cultural toxic messages and, you know, get beyond shame and get beyond. 66 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:52,000 Like that requires big muscles, big emotional muscles. 67 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:56,000 And like, it can be quite uncomfortable for people who start out. 68 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,000 They might be at the 10 pound weights, you know, 69 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,000 and working those for like a year or, 70 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,000 and then they move up to the 20 pound weights and they're like, 71 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:10,000 wow, that actually wasn't what I thought was hard is no longer hard to me. 72 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:14,000 And then you can keep building these skills and these tools. 73 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:18,000 And on all of a sudden, you're just like a heavyweight. 74 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:22,000 You're an Olympian when it comes to the inner world. 75 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:27,000 So that whatever arises in you, you're like, OK, all right, I know what this is. 76 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,000 I know what to do. So that's what I'm meaning. 77 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:35,000 I meaningly, how we dip into these, the badlands of the inner world. 78 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,000 So what does that look like for you? 79 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:43,000 In terms of men think visually, what does that look like in terms of experience? 80 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:48,000 So men can kind of grab onto that of what it because I know what you mean, 81 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:53,000 but I want to draw that out in terms of how does a man who's 82 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:59,000 interested in improving his life dig into the internal world? 83 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,000 What does that look like? 84 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:06,000 Well, it often first requires a safe container. 85 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:11,000 And so nobody is meant to do this kind of work alone. 86 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:16,000 It's great to have someone very safe that you trust, that can create a space 87 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:22,000 where you're willing to maybe take off some of the armor and like start. 88 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:29,000 So one of the things I talk about is becoming your own scientist 89 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:34,000 and getting really curious with what's going on like here. 90 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,000 Something just bubbled out of me, something just arose. 91 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,000 I'm not really sure what it is. 92 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,000 You have a weird reaction or a strong reaction. 93 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,000 I'm not really sure what it is. 94 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,000 You put on your scientist glasses. 95 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,000 What are you wearing as a scientist? 96 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:56,000 And your microscope, you take out your microscope and you start zooming in 97 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:00,000 and getting really curious and start doing data collection. 98 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:05,000 You can start collecting data on yourself and do it writing memos 99 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,000 and being like cataloging it. 100 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,000 And then you get really, you start putting this puzzle together. 101 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,000 Who am I and what's going on? 102 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,000 Why did I do this? 103 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:23,000 And you build this amazing map of your life, which is power. 104 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:24,000 That is powerful. 105 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:28,000 When you are able to identify, like you'll just know, you're like, 106 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,000 Oh, actually I collected this on May 17th. 107 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:39,000 And you start just having concrete data on who you are and why you do what you do. 108 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,000 And what's going on? 109 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:48,000 Well, I think the interior is for a lot of men could be a very dark space. 110 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:55,000 They don't know what's there and don't like to look like failures. 111 00:06:55,000 --> 00:07:01,000 And I think it's kind of an Achilles heel for men is that we don't like looking stupid 112 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:09,000 because men are primarily up here and women can get down in their body a lot more easily. 113 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:13,000 And I think that's an extremely valuable asset. 114 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:21,000 I learned so much from the women in my life because they can feel a lot easier than men. 115 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:26,000 I think for men, going inside starts with not wanting to look stupid. 116 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:31,000 And I think that's the value of the ice baths and the podcast is their beginning stages. 117 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:35,000 But like you said, to go deeper. 118 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,000 Have you ever heard of Ed Brighton? 119 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:38,000 No. 120 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:39,000 Ed Brighton was a football player. 121 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:46,000 I think he played for New England Patriots and he started a podcast. 122 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:52,000 He's this burly football guy, six foot seven, but he's doing the journey of going inward. 123 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:57,000 And it blows my mind every time I hear him because what he realizes it comes down to is 124 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:01,000 if I go inward, I've got to deal with myself and I don't like doing that. 125 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:07,000 And he talks about it as a journey of what it means to go inside is I've got a first deal with. 126 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,000 I don't like parts of myself and that's hard to look at. 127 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,000 So how do you deal with that? 128 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,000 How do you counsel people to deal with that? 129 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,000 I love that you're bringing this up. 130 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:25,000 It's such an important point about the way men have been socialized and conditioned is different 131 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:29,000 than the culture women are in and their freedom to share their emotions. 132 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:36,000 They have some very oppressive norms that they're trying to figure out and move through 133 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:44,000 especially around looking weak or having a chink in their armor and not like they collude 134 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:48,000 in a culture of silence about how much emotional pain they're in. 135 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:56,000 And I've been privileged in that I've been able to witness people, men get more comfortable 136 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:04,000 in these spaces since working at distress centers in Canada where I'm from. 137 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:11,000 And where I really got to see behind the masks and see especially when men get to the brink 138 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,000 like the edge of do I want to be here or not? 139 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:22,000 Like if they have suicidal ideation like I have been with men in the pits of hell of their own hell. 140 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,000 And how do you feel safe? 141 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,000 Like how do we create options? 142 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:33,000 How do we create safety in those moments so that things that might seem like completely 143 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:40,000 awful it actually is so helpful when we can name them and create a safe space to figure out 144 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,000 what's going on here? 145 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:43,000 What is going on here? 146 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,000 You're definitely not alone in it. 147 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:52,000 And just putting it on the table as something to explore as this scientist. 148 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,000 Let's get really curious. 149 00:09:54,000 --> 00:10:01,000 And there's so much work to remove the toxic programs that are on top of men in terms of 150 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:06,000 like shaming them. It's actually the hardest thing to do is get vulnerable. 151 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:11,000 Those are the most courageous people I have ever met or the strongest people I've ever met. 152 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:16,000 So it's correcting that cultural narrative that like as long as you look like you have no 153 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:20,000 chinks in your armor, you are strong. 154 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,000 No, actually the strongest one I know. 155 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:27,000 The paper tiger sometimes is more valuable, you know. 156 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:28,000 Exactly. 157 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:35,000 So it's doing these corrective messages to what's been like, you know, it's been really hard 158 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:42,000 to break this pattern and the cycle of like it's inherited from, you know, father to son. 159 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:46,000 And it just keeps going down of like we don't talk about things. 160 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:47,000 We don't talk about weakness. 161 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,000 We don't have hard feelings. 162 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:51,000 Yeah. 163 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:55,000 And so it's making it safe enough that we can put things on the table. 164 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:56,000 That's the power of shadow work. 165 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:01,000 We can put the ugliest thing on the table and find a way to love it. 166 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,000 Find a way to figure it out. 167 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:11,000 Find a way to find its place, to reap the lessons and like figure it like just know where to put it, 168 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,000 how to integrate it. 169 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:19,000 So it no longer holds that same charge because often men come to me haunted. 170 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,000 They come to me haunted. 171 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:24,000 They are just like, I don't know how I'm going to be able to keep going. 172 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:28,000 I every day think about X, Y, Z. 173 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:35,000 And then doing the work, getting through the work, the power of like creating the safe space to figure it out. 174 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:42,000 By the time we figured it out, you know, might be a year, it might be two years, it might be it's different for everyone, 175 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:46,000 but it no longer holds power. 176 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:55,000 And that is so, this is what makes me love what I do is when I can have it like somebody we start a session 177 00:11:55,000 --> 00:12:02,000 and they're haunted by X, Y, Z and by, you know, a certain point later that it's a non-issue. 178 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:07,000 It's like they're just like, it doesn't even matter anymore. 179 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,000 That's amazing. 180 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:18,000 A lot of people don't understand what that feels like though, because it's, you know, people have certain fears in their life 181 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:23,000 and it's easier to compartmentalize and ignore fear than it is to deal with it. 182 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:30,000 And the problem is, is that when we compartmentalize it means we're storing it inside of our body somewhere 183 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,000 and it will create disease. 184 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:37,000 And it's interesting that people can accept the disease when in action. 185 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:43,000 This is the thing that gets me is the moment we face the fear, we realize we could always overcome it, 186 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:48,000 but we just had to face it in order to discover that. 187 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:56,000 And people don't have the discovery to know its value until they face their fear, because that was my journey. 188 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:01,000 I spent the last 30 years trying to figure out why I couldn't face my fears. 189 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:09,000 And what I eventually realized is that I could, I just didn't know it yet. 190 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:16,000 And I think work is in a lot of ways discovering your potential of what's already there. 191 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,000 I've always had the capacity to face the fear. 192 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:27,000 What do you see when you work with men that helps them get over that hump of being able to face it 193 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:32,000 and live into a sense of transparency? 194 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:42,000 I would say a part of it is dipping their toes in, just like with ice baths. 195 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,000 That's where I am not here to hate on ice baths. 196 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:52,000 It really is such an amazing metaphor for how it feels emotionally. 197 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,000 Like you dip in for a minute. 198 00:13:54,000 --> 00:14:00,000 Maybe you can only do 30 seconds of the fear, and then it becomes completely overwhelming. 199 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:07,000 But it's having enough tools and safety that you come out and then you wrap yourself in a towel and then you get a smoothie. 200 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:14,000 Well, it's 90 seconds of showing yourself you can do hard things, and a lot of people don't know that. 201 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,000 It's a tough experience to do. 202 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:24,000 I learned it in the reverse, so I've been doing it emotionally my whole life because I had to. 203 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:25,000 I had to. 204 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:30,000 My soul took me to a place where if I'm going to be able to keep going, 205 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:37,000 I have to find a way through all of the heavy shit that has been dropped on me. 206 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:42,000 When I started doing ice baths, I was like, this is exactly the same. 207 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,000 I say the same thing. Yeah. 208 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:50,000 Yeah, it's like I'm just putting myself in a state of suffering. 209 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,000 It's chosen suffering to realize, oh, I can handle this, you know, 210 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:58,000 because everybody's trying to deal with the edges of what they can handle. 211 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:04,000 An ice bath is kind of like knocking one of them down, you know, and say, oh, I can do a little bit more than I think. 212 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:12,000 And you can do that emotionally to say, OK, I've got this fear that I've been ignoring for 30 years, and I think I can finally face it. 213 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:19,000 I just pick one little thing like something last Tuesday that's still whirling in my brain. 214 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:29,000 And I think learning that you can turn and face it is one of the most valuable skills I've ever found is just and I think that pivot is to courage. 215 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:36,000 So you had to just because nobody like for me, when I want to go in that ice bath, like I don't really want to go. 216 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,000 Right. Yeah. 217 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:43,000 You don't want to really go, but you know you're going to feel better afterwards. Right. 218 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:51,000 And so then you kind of you drop in like I have to kind of turn my head off for a second, drop in, turn my thoughts off. 219 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:55,000 And then, you know, because if you think you're just like, I want to get out of here, I want to get out of here. 220 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:59,000 This is awful. Like that's what the mind is doing. 221 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:05,000 And you have to find a way to work with that and turn it off to actually like take that. 222 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:12,000 Okay, we're doing it. And so, you know, some people count some people you find your ways to cope through it. 223 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,000 You know, the breath people go out of their ways to and it's the same. 224 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:26,000 It's the same with our emotional world. When we're facing these things, it's like, okay, I know it's going to not be fun. 225 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:33,000 It's going to be like, ah, for a few minutes, and then I might end up feeling better. 226 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:38,000 And that's the thing to know is that it's not we're doing it for no reason. 227 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:42,000 It's not suffering in vain. Right. 228 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:46,000 It's to be able to metabolize experiences. 229 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:53,000 And that's that is something that not a lot of people like I often get men they're like, I didn't know therapy would help. 230 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:59,000 I'm like, how did you not know that? But like they didn't think that they just thought it was talking. 231 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:07,000 Right. They think it's just talking. And it's like, no, actually, there's a way to do it where you're metabolizing your experiences. 232 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:15,000 You're digesting them. And then it actually can clear the energy in a way that it's not heavy on you. 233 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:21,000 And you're not just carrying it around, you know, in your compartmentalized boxes. 234 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:31,000 When I first got to therapy after I had been through the ringer, I had been through what Francis Weller calls rough initiations. 235 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:38,000 I told my therapist, maybe this is politically incorrect. I told my therapist I felt emotionally obese. 236 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:44,000 And what I meant by that is I just had so many experiences I didn't know what to do with. 237 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:53,000 I remember feeling like I was just hoarding experiences and I didn't know where they went or what they meant or how to feel about them. 238 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:59,000 So I remember that mentality being like, I don't even know where to start. 239 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:07,000 And it can feel so overwhelming. So I love what you're saying. It's just like, just pick one. 240 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:20,000 Dip your toe in. I want to go back to your article because you said the men's mental health crisis requires men to stop compartmentalizing and outrunning their feelings. 241 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:35,000 What did you mean by that? Yes, I have met a lot of men who will do everything to not feel what they're feeling. 242 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:41,000 And so our audience understands you are a crisis counselor. I started that way. 243 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:47,000 So yeah, I've been working with a lot of expertise in working with people that are at a crisis mode. 244 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:56,000 My first gig in mental health was working in crisis for five years. 245 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:01,000 I was working with people who are at their absolute edge. And like since then, I've worked in hospitals. 246 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:06,000 I've worked on nonprofits. I've worked all over the place. Private practice. 247 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:15,000 Yeah, so I have a lot of experience of people either they're compartmentalizing and they're like, but it works for me. 248 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:24,000 It's in a box, nicely in a box. It works. I put it in a shelf. It's gone. 249 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:32,000 So yeah, I've heard that a lot. And then I've heard the outrunning. They're just trying to keep busy as long as they keep busy, 250 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:37,000 as long as they have like full schedules and they go to the gym five times a week and everything. 251 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:42,000 The dinners up. They just pack their life. And it's podcasts. 252 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:48,000 And I have all my podcasts. So they're never actually having space. 253 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:59,000 You know, then they fill it with, you know, we all have Netflix. We all have, you know, we find our ways to fill our energy in mind instead of turning inward. 254 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:04,000 Yeah. So that's what I was meaning when I wrote that. 255 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:13,000 So that leads to this idea of tolerating momentary pain to transform what blocks the heart. 256 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:18,000 That unpack that sense because it's not just about getting over the pain. 257 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:25,000 It's about unblocking your heart. 258 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:31,000 I don't think most men understand what it means to not have a block on their heart. 259 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:41,000 Yeah. And it's something again, I feel so privileged that I have had the opportunity to support men 260 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:50,000 in softening their hearts again and feeling again because I know what a risk that can be, 261 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:55,000 especially in this culture where there's so much fear, there's so much shame. 262 00:20:55,000 --> 00:21:02,000 It feels impossible. I know it can feel really impossible to be a man right now. 263 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:08,000 And so, yeah, it's the purpose of, you know, like the ice bath, you dip your toes in. 264 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:16,000 We're not just doing it in vain. The hope is that through this building of tolerance to the discomfort, 265 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:24,000 we can actually get to what is blocking hearts. Like what is this armor? 266 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:34,000 What is the, how many layers of protection where men can kind of operate in a way where they're not being fully authentic. 267 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:38,000 They've got so many masks on because they feel they have to. 268 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:47,000 They feel they have to, to please people or to keep being productive or keeping who they need to be for work or, you know, 269 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:54,000 keep up with all their roles and identities that it is incredibly difficult to actually be authentic. 270 00:21:54,000 --> 00:22:00,000 And I have watched the horrible consequences of when they can't be. 271 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:07,000 You know, marriages ending where they were never able to tell their partner the truth of how they felt. 272 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:17,000 And so they became a zombie. In one case, I'm thinking of where someone became an absolute zombie in their marriage 273 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:22,000 because they just stopped being able to feel at all. Yeah. 274 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:32,000 And so then it just the distance between the partners grew and grew and grew and it and it wasn't able to work out 275 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:40,000 because it just they became such different people and he was so far away from his heart, 276 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:44,000 which thankfully now he's been able to reclaim and soften back into. 277 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:54,000 But yeah, this is where it's such important work to be able to get back to our authentic, heartfelt living. 278 00:22:54,000 --> 00:23:05,000 For our audience that's never done any kind of work like that, what does that work look like for you in terms of either in a clinical setting or in a workshop setting? 279 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:14,000 How could men begin? What does it look like to kind of begin that process of doing work? 280 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,000 What would you lead someone through if they came into your office? 281 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:32,000 Well, it would again, first give them the tools to handle when discomfort arises. 282 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:39,000 Because we're not going to be able to get very far if they get overwhelmed and the armor goes up immediately. 283 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:45,000 Right. So you have to really build that trust and give them a skill set to handle the discomfort. 284 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:53,000 Right. Like just like the ice best, the breath work, mindfulness, whatever it needs, whatever they need to feel safe. 285 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:59,000 So the first absolute first step is safety. Inner safety. Right. 286 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:09,000 It's outer and inner. It's the cultural messages and then the messages that we've absorbed so deeply that we think like we attack ourselves with them. 287 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:15,000 We shame ourselves. Don't be weak. I don't want to feel this way. 288 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:29,000 Well, I think that's part of the problem is that most men feel anger and shame or I don't know what a neutral setting would be, but anger and shame or constants in men's lives. 289 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:39,000 And I think that's part of the reason is there's probably a lot of anger and shame, especially between fathers and sons and even mothers. 290 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:47,000 I mean, there's definitely mothers ones, but it's again, it's easier to compartmentalize and just kind of say it's not there. 291 00:24:47,000 --> 00:25:00,000 And I've and here's the thing is for me is I've done enough work with men and to have seen what kind of the way you finished your article was around when you're not afraid of your inner world. 292 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:09,000 That is true power. And it's so interesting to see men become aware of their power because it's not egotistical. 293 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:13,000 You're taking care of yourself. It's not an egotistical power that needs attention. 294 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:25,000 It's comfort and calm with the self like to feel a sense of, oh, you know, we remove all the noise from the signal. 295 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:34,000 It plays beautiful music. That's kind of the metaphor analogy that I would use is it's like all that negative energy is just noise to the signal. 296 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:39,000 And if you remove it, you get to be the fullest expression of who you are. 297 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:46,000 I love that. And I use similar analogies in my work in terms of. 298 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:56,000 You end up just with this inner space like it's the voices are gone and that's part of that building of inner safety. 299 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,000 You end up like you're saying it's common there. It's not. 300 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:07,000 And I love that you're differentiating these kinds of power because, yeah, a lot of men are taught power is control power. 301 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:16,000 Like there's all these toxic messages about what power power is, just money and having the best car and having a buff body. 302 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:22,000 That's power. Having a bunch of people who want to date you. 303 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:28,000 Right. And so it's reorienting that idea of what is true power. 304 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:39,000 True power is when you feel peace inside of you, when you are able to just sit and feel calm and good and enjoy the present. 305 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:44,000 Without the intrusive messages and being haunted. 306 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:53,000 By all the ghosts and all the thoughts and intrusive thinking and spinning thought like when all of that nervous system energy has settled. 307 00:26:53,000 --> 00:27:02,000 And you have that, you know, if anything does arise, you know what it what's going on and it's power. 308 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:08,000 Yeah. When you can get to a point where all these old patterns no longer haunt you, they might happen. 309 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:16,000 Like someone might try to activate you a certain way. If you have a pattern with somebody, it doesn't hold the same power anymore. 310 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:23,000 Yeah. You can just go back to that calm, beautiful space inside. 311 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,000 Why did you get into this type of work? 312 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:32,000 Why crisis and why helping people go through this? What what draw you drew you to it? 313 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:38,000 Well, so actually the what I specialize the most in is grief. 314 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,000 Oh, wow. 315 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:45,000 Nobody likes talking talking about that one. 316 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,000 So that's actually what I do specialize in. 317 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:53,000 But what got me into the field is I had been through the wringer. 318 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:59,000 I'd had my own rough initiations and I did not feel equipped. 319 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:04,000 I was like, I will need to understand what the what is going on here. 320 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:08,000 What I put on my scientist hat from a young age. 321 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:15,000 And I got very curious about what was going on in my life, what was going on with everyone. 322 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:19,000 How did how are all these people who love each other hurting each other? 323 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,000 What are what's you know, what is going on here? 324 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,000 All in pain. Oh, yeah. I know. 325 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,000 I have the same story. Yeah. 326 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,000 A lot of us do. Right. 327 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:35,000 And for me, it was how do I figure I wanted to figure this out deeply. 328 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:39,000 And so I was fascinated with psychology and sociology, 329 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:45,000 which is really important because it was both doing the micro microscopic exploration 330 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,000 and the macro of like these larger forces at play. 331 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:53,000 So I carry both my PhDs in public health, actually. 332 00:28:53,000 --> 00:29:00,000 So I have been on this journey of building my what I sometimes joke. 333 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,000 I'm a cartographer of hell. 334 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:09,000 I'm just building a map, just like creating this giant map. 335 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,000 Right. No, I know. Yeah. 336 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:22,000 You hear me. It's it's interesting that in life, when it brings you a very deep sense of suffering. 337 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:30,000 Like I played a victim for so long and I realized being a victim is easier, but harder in the long run. 338 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:35,000 It's easier in the short run and it's harder in the long run because it becomes extremely tiring. 339 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,000 And it really is right around my 20s. I started saying, you know what? 340 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,000 I need help. Like I am a basket case. 341 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:47,000 And and I really began to seek out help, but I didn't have any clue where I was going. 342 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:56,000 I just started listening to really smart people that seemed like they were going in the direction that I wanted to go. 343 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:02,000 And so it sounds like you had a similar journey of just trying to figure it out for your own sake, because that's why. 344 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:14,000 Absolutely. And I thought I had, especially in the crisis distress center world, I thought I'd figured a lot of it out. 345 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,000 I'd been trained on every topic in mental health. 346 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,000 And then I went through my first major death experience. 347 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:27,000 Personal or for a client? It was someone I loved. 348 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:32,000 Okay. Died pancreatic cancer. And it just shook me. 349 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:39,000 Everything I thought I knew went out the window. Grief was like I was humbled. 350 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:45,000 I was just so humbled. Everything I theoretically knew no longer applied. 351 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:56,000 And I really wanted to figure that out because it was just such a potent energy that all of a sudden I looked around like, oh, my gosh, I've been grieving my whole life. 352 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:02,000 I had no idea that this is grief that I've been feeling. 353 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:09,000 And so that led me down an even wilder path of the Ph.D. and the research I've done. 354 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:19,000 But it's something that I especially missed. Can you unpack what grief is from a clinical standpoint, but also maybe from your own personal perspective? 355 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:25,000 Because grief, it sounds like it's distinct to you. And I want to draw that distinction out. 356 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:36,000 Mm hmm. Well, and it again fits with our going, dipping our toes in this ice bath because grief is one of these very hard things to allow. 357 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:43,000 But what I grief is multifaceted and it's an embodied response to loss. 358 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:49,000 So there has to be some kind of attachment to what's been lost. Otherwise, we won't feel it. 359 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:56,000 If we don't attach to something or somebody, we won't feel the loss of them. So it really is about the nature of the attachment. 360 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:06,000 And it's this embodied physical, emotional, mental, spiritual like it's a full experience that that's where I was so humbled. 361 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:12,000 And I see the power of it because it's again, it's not something that's just for no reason. 362 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:18,000 It's very adaptive and it helps us digest what's happened in our lives. 363 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:31,000 So it's one of these powerful forces like the ice bath that if we can grow more tolerance for it, there is such medicine in it and such healing and power. 364 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:37,000 If we can. Yeah, I could go on ad nauseum about this. 365 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:51,000 No, that's that's part of why I invited you on is because I think personally, I study my own internal world a lot. I journal heavily, but I also am very conscious of the world around me. 366 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:58,000 And I think we have entered, especially with the introduction of A.I. because A.I. is freaking a lot of people out politically. 367 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:03,000 The world is interesting. Money wise is interesting. There's a lot of things just kind of on fire right now. 368 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:11,000 And I think people are beginning to realize how am I going to survive through this? I can barely afford to live. 369 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:18,000 How am I going to survive? And in order to truly survive long term, you got to have connection to your heart. 370 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:22,000 And I think people are beginning to really say, I need help here. 371 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:32,000 And we're realizing this is a response to something going on here that I think at a core, people have to learn how to love themselves. 372 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:39,000 And that's at a very core level. You only deal with yourself 24 7. Everybody else gets a pass. 373 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:43,000 And so if you can't live with yourself, you can't live with anybody. 374 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:49,000 And I think the attachment part is who we think we are. 375 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:57,000 And when we lose someone, it's we're trying to make sense of what does it mean? What does life mean without this person? 376 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:03,000 And how do you help people through that process? Because I know grief is a five stage process. 377 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:12,000 But how do you help people through that? So I'm going to first just respectfully disagree on the five stages. 378 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:18,000 It is not. I am glad you say that. OK, I'm busting model, but inform us. 379 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,000 Give us better information. Yes. So better information here. 380 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:27,000 There are no five stages of grief. There are no stages of grief. 381 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:39,000 There is no one right way. There's so many toxic, unhelpful, harmful messages that actually keep us shame in our shame about grief. 382 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:45,000 Because then we're like, the number one in one of the stages. Yeah, I'm doing it wrong. 383 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:55,000 So the number one question I get is am I doing grief right? That is the end infused in that question is shame. 384 00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:00,000 Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's its engine. It's its engine. 385 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:09,000 The relationship between grief and shame in our culture, because it's the culture that's shaping the space for our grief to come out. 386 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:18,000 Because one of the big things that I love sharing and I find is just very powerful is grief is a mammal activity. 387 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:25,000 It's not just unpack that. So all mammals grief. Yeah. 388 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:30,000 All mammals grief. We are not this random, unique species grieving all mammals grief. 389 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:37,000 So to think we are somehow above it or that we can just push it somewhere is not helpful. 390 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:46,000 It's not. It's it should be the most natural, normal thing that if you go through a loss that you have a grief response. 391 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:51,000 Like you can look at a BBC Earth, I believe, like they've written up on this. 392 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:57,000 Like they could talk about the rituals done by giraffes and elephants and different sizes of mammals. 393 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:05,000 And I say all this to destigmatize grief. Like we want to destigmatize it because it's something that, again, 394 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:10,000 a lot of us are just just like a nice bath for like this is awful. I don't want to do it. 395 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:14,000 Why would I do this? Right. 396 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:22,000 It feels illogical to allow the pain of grief to happen when I'm supposed to be happy. 397 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,000 Yeah, I'm not supposed to feel this way. 398 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:37,000 How do you help people kind of step into grief is that space where you let the heart take over and feel it. 399 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:43,000 How do you help people kind of enter into that? 400 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:49,000 Well, again, so this is where we want to clear out these toxic cultural programs. 401 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:56,000 All these messages that keep us blocked from being able to drop in. 402 00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:02,000 So there's a lot a lot of clearing and correcting of problematic messaging. 403 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:09,000 And then once that space is cleared, we can then it's actually a do less experience. 404 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:13,000 It's an allow. It's an allowing. 405 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:20,000 And I love sharing. We already know how to grieve in our creature, our mammal self. 406 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:26,000 We are when our bodies know what to do, we hijack the process mentally. 407 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:32,000 So especially when we think of, you know, we've talked about with men being way more cerebral, way more, you know, 408 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,000 they're proud of their advancements in logic and reason. 409 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:41,000 You could get just stuck in the head. You get stuck there. 410 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,000 And I used to be this way. Like I'm an academic. 411 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:50,000 I know how to be smart and cut off. 412 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:55,000 I know how to think that I'm just from the neck up and that I don't have a body. 413 00:37:55,000 --> 00:38:00,000 And that's then I've also experienced the problems of cutting off from my body. 414 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:10,000 But when we can actually relax the mind and allow the body to do its magic, to do what it knows how to do, 415 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,000 that's it. We want to move people there. 416 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:21,000 And I've had to do a lot of work with men to assure them that when grief that comes in waves, 417 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:26,000 the waves, you know, can be overwhelming, they can crash over us. 418 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,000 They do stop. You get breathers. 419 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:34,000 They're not just like relentless waves. It does end. 420 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:39,000 Yeah. Well, and it subsides like maybe another round of way, just like the weather, you know, 421 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,000 like we can't predict the weather. Right. 422 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:48,000 But no weather is permanent. Like it's just not. It keeps evolving. 423 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:57,000 And it's also I studied a lot about pain and human beings can adapt to their capacity to experience pain. 424 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:04,000 And actually, what's the most painful part of the origination of the pain is your imagination of it, not the actuality of it. 425 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:12,000 And so you get in the side of this is going to hurt and that's your body practicing the rehearsal before it happens and you're feeling it. 426 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:22,000 And that's what a lot of people don't realize. The imagination they bring to it adds tremendously to the to the experience of the actual pain. 427 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:33,000 And when you let it go, you're realizing one, we have the capacity to let it go. 428 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:44,000 And that's the we create the attachment. And I like how you said it's the attachment leaving, but you got to let it go because grief is realizing, OK, I'm a better human. 429 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:56,000 I'm still OK. If I let it go. That's the hard part is it's that over that arc of what does it mean to let go of whatever this that I'm grieving over. 430 00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:12,000 And that is a very hard journey for people because of the level of attachment. I've been very I think this conversation around attachment over the last three or five years has been extremely valuable because we're learning how our body does it automatically. 431 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:23,000 It's just it's how we're operating. And, you know, grief, you see that loss, that attachment process almost on fire. 432 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:31,000 Well, and it depends on what the grief is about, because some things are easier to let go of than others. 433 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:41,000 Again, some things are ripped out of our hands or the attachments are just, you know, with a sudden death, for example, that is just shocking to the body. 434 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:57,000 It feels so unfair and unjust to the body when it's sudden and unpredictable. So like there's that kind of heaviness. But then there's, you know, you know, loss of a relationship or a friendship or a shirt or, you know, like 435 00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:13,000 it depends on what was lost and what we can do as we move through, like we have to allow the grief to kind of ripple through us to kind of shock our systems and move digest it because it is hard. 436 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:18,000 We don't want to let go. Letting go is maybe the hardest thing. 437 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:28,000 It's maybe one of the hardest. So we're talking like the most cold ice baths right now. 438 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,000 This sucks. 439 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:43,000 The first day is like the first ice bath. You don't even know how bad it's going to be. And then it's like shocking, you know, because Rich does ice baths a lot and my co-host and he said, you know, when you start, it's like getting in. 440 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:56,000 It's like, oh, it takes like five minutes just to get in. And then, you know, you realize by the third time, just get it. You know, it's like get over that. And then you learn, oh, you can get over it. And I think that's 441 00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:02,000 it's got to be a very rewarding part seeing people get over their own fears 442 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:07,000 and get their own beliefs, essentially, because grief is very personal. 443 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:11,000 Yeah, and it's not that we ever get over grief. 444 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:21,000 And for some people, they don't get over it. So some people, like if you lose a child, if you lose a partner, you're not trying to get over it. 445 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:36,000 There's no end necessarily. It's not about, it's one of the big theories in the field is you actually, it's continuing bonds. And so it's more about transforming the type of relationship that it was, the type of attachment that it was. 446 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:41,000 Maybe they're not in the physical presence anymore, but how can you still keep a connection? 447 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:45,000 So it's not a clean cut in some cases with grief. 448 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:50,000 Or finding some perfect end. That's why there's no sages. 449 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:58,000 Because what we have to do is allow, we have to allow its process to work through us. 450 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:07,000 And this is where it's so hard. A lot of people don't want to allow the anger, because grief is all sorts of things. Grief is anger. 451 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:16,000 So when we talk about anger with men, I love also, here's another myth to bust that underneath anger is grief. 452 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,000 I agree with that. Yeah. 453 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:26,000 That was big for me. I was like, really? Because it looks so different. But once you really, you know, once this act of like, ah, 454 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:32,000 but something has been lost. Something is unjust. Right? Like some boundary was crossed. 455 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:38,000 Something was, you know, there's something going on there that is a grief of some form. 456 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:42,000 And so when you are able to know that, you can work with it differently. 457 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:48,000 And when the people, so one thing I really notice I want to say is, 458 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:54,000 I've really noticed the people who don't digest their feelings versus the people who do. 459 00:43:54,000 --> 00:44:03,000 And you were talking about how rewarding it is. Digest it. When they are able to actually digest and metabolize grief or these heavy experiences. 460 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:08,000 Let it flow through them. Is that what you're saying? Let it flow through you. It changes you. 461 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:14,000 Yeah. Because you're allowing your body to experience what it's meant to experience. And then it flows out of you. 462 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:22,000 That's it's the resistance. The attachment creates the resistance that creates the heat in the signal, which creates the chaos. 463 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:28,000 And if you if you just let it go through, you realize, oh, I can handle the emotion. 464 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:32,000 Yeah, it's I'm sorry. I just got a little tangent there, but it's like that's the experience. 465 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:40,000 It has to flow through you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you have to find your grounding for it. 466 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:48,000 And that's where the safe containers are so important. But what I'm also adding to this is that it will change you. 467 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:57,000 So, for example, let's say you are slowly learning someone you thought was a friend is not a friend. 468 00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:07,000 You're starting if you refuse to feel the feelings of like, hey, what they just did was kind of mean or that didn't fit. 469 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:12,000 If you refuse to feel that, that is how you stay their friend. That is how you do. 470 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:18,000 Like, it's fine. It's fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. Really, your body's like, this is not like I'm cringing. 471 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:22,000 Like, I'm like feeling a little sick in my stomach. I don't really want to see them anywhere. 472 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:35,000 Like that starts building. And if you digest that, if you I digest the hurt of like, hey, actually, they're not really seem to care about me at all. 473 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:47,000 They seem to when you really digest that you change and you change. So this is where I mean, like these things can change us when we digest them. 474 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:57,000 And in that sense, feels like it's just coming to terms with reality, you know, integrating it like in all the parts, right? 475 00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:09,000 The mental, emotional, spiritual, all of these parts, the body is now in alignment with the mind and saying, this isn't good for us. 476 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:13,000 This is no longer serving us. We don't really want to be doing this anymore. 477 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:23,000 You know, like that's when we have these integrated. It's not just the mind being like, but they're our friend and we have a history. 478 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:28,000 So they can be at odds, the body and the mind. 479 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:41,000 So I have a pet theory about that. And it's growing theory because I digest these ideas all the time is humanity is realizing, I think men live, lived in history primarily up here. 480 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:48,000 And we've been in a masculine age controlled by the head. And women have been live primarily here. 481 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:58,000 And I think what's happening is this emergence of a coherence where women are waking up to what's going on up here and men are beginning to wake up here. 482 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:07,000 And it's creating a sense of balance that people can say, OK, because the value of having both is a sense of coherence. 483 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:14,000 Your body is meant to tell you when it's hurting. And if you compartmentalized it, you can't even feel the pain anymore. 484 00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:23,000 And that that's hard. So it's coming to terms with we're gaining both capacities on a much more robust level. 485 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:31,000 Men are realizing I can feel that's not just female. It's feminine energy, but it's it's not just female. 486 00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:36,000 Both of us can have that. And women are saying, oh, I like the masculine and I can have that, too. 487 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:44,000 It's like you were an academic focusing here, but you learned I had to come out here and having both creates a much more balanced life. 488 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:48,000 That's my. That's an interesting theory. 489 00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:53,000 We're waking up that humanity is beginning to wake up that I need both. 490 00:47:53,000 --> 00:48:05,000 Well, and it's actually I mean, technically from a neuroscience perspective, it's all up here in terms of the I'm pointing at my head for those who can't see the back of the head 491 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:10,000 is where we store our trauma. And it's known to be. 492 00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:14,000 And this is my like brain 101 because it took me forever to figure this out. 493 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:20,000 But I've taught it to my daughter. The back of the head is where we store our trauma and our memories. 494 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:27,000 And so that's where we can have these highly emotional experiences that we can't put our fingers on. 495 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:46,000 Like it's just and the goal is to get the prefrontal cortex, the front of the head online. That is the battle for a lot of people when they're triggered in their trauma or in their nervous systems, because nervous system science has is one of the most popular right now in terms of like. 496 00:48:46,000 --> 00:49:01,000 And I don't know in terms of gender energies, how this all aligns, but it like to be able to get the clear thinking of the prefrontal cortex is such a battle when we're triggered with our trauma memories. 497 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:07,000 Yeah, the experience of when you say you're in your body resides. 498 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:19,000 Well, I have learned now. So I used to think that I was going to be cursed in my anxiety in my nervous system for the rest of my life. 499 00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:26,000 I just thought it was now the water ice. It was the water. I swam in for years for decades. 500 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:46,000 I was just having a more hyper vigilant spinning mind, and it was life changing to do somatic work. And that's work with the body to find other to actually allow the mind to rest to recognize that a spinning mind is the back of the brain on fire. 501 00:49:46,000 --> 00:50:01,000 It's you know you're activated in fight or flight or even in. So I don't know if you know this like the rat the ladder of regulation, where it's like at the very bottom we're in dorsal mode of this ladder were collapsed we're just completely overwhelmed deer and headlights. 502 00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:20,000 And that is when we're just things that we have no tolerance for what we're going through. If we can climb up the ladder this is Deb Dana by the way, if in the middle of the light at ladder is fight or flight so that's an active energy, that means we've been able to climb out of deer and headlights and are able to do something. 503 00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:32,000 Fight or flight run away you know fight whatever is happening and then at the top of the ladder is ventral mode. And that's when we can feel safe with other people. It's when we have other we're feeling connected we're feeling good. 504 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:38,000 The thing with this ladder is we climb up and down it all the time every day. 505 00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:54,000 The goal is to be able to keep moving up and we can't just stay at the top of the ladder. That would be impossible. It's recognizing we can actually find our way out of the collapse state, maybe we need to do some fight or flight, then how do we reconnect with people. 506 00:50:54,000 --> 00:51:08,000 So it's learning where you're at on the ladder learning what to do about it but so with the body yeah like the body is powerful. The body actually is your best ally and I don't mean it in a feminine energy way. 507 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:12,000 I mean it in a just a mammal way. 508 00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:16,000 If the body tells us the truth. 509 00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:20,000 The body has been with us our whole lives. 510 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:29,000 Yeah, it's our best friend. And I don't think a lot of people realize that that signal is what helps us navigate life really well. 511 00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:38,000 And I will say the men that I have worked with are often so taken aback as they continue to pay attention to their bodies. 512 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:54,000 Because I yeah as we've talked it's it's men you know it's beyond emotions emotions so when I talk about emotions. I am talking about them like they're just symptoms of things happening, just like we would talk about having cold symptoms. 513 00:51:54,000 --> 00:52:09,000 Like they are not right or wrong at all. It's not about right or wrong with feelings. They are just you know it's like oh you have a cough and a sniffle that's probably this. You have a this and a this you have anger and shame. 514 00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,000 That's this. Yeah. 515 00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:16,000 Yeah, it's really predictable patterns going on with our feelings and they we don't choose them. 516 00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:29,000 It's just what happened creates feelings in us. They're not the truth. They're just symptoms of things they can point us in directions they can cue us to understand what's going on in our lives. 517 00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:36,000 And so again, maybe this is a part of why I'm thinking this is important is it's not necessarily feminine. 518 00:52:36,000 --> 00:53:00,000 These are just things. These are just human thing capacities that we can all work with is we can work with figuring out these patterns in our feelings or in our thoughts or in our behaviors we can start seeing them for what they are and figuring out what's going on in our nervous systems and seeing our body as our best ally. 519 00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:08,000 And so when men come back into sessions with me they'll often be like my body told me a thing and it was right. 520 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:12,000 And my body responded first my instinct. 521 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:16,000 Like when you've done this work to get back in your body. 522 00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:19,000 It's amazing what it will tell you. 523 00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:24,000 It's amazing like it's such a powerful tool. 524 00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:27,000 Yes, I think. 525 00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:34,000 I think in terms of everyday life if you hate your job and you're not sure your wife even wants you in the house and your kids don't pay attention anymore. 526 00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:41,000 It's your it's like you've compartmentalized all those feelings you've missed those signals because you've kind of numbed your body. 527 00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:46,000 And I think that's the trap most men fall in. 528 00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:55,000 Yes, absolutely. And I also know on this thread is a lot of men are afraid of those cues. 529 00:53:55,000 --> 00:54:02,000 What do you mean by that? So they're afraid of like so in response to the article we've had a whole variety of responses. 530 00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:10,000 But one guy was like I feel a beast inside me would emerge and just wreak havoc on my life. 531 00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:14,000 And I think that resonates with a lot of men. 532 00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:22,000 A lot of men are like whoa I have been compartmentalizing this for 30 40 years. 533 00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,000 If I start feeling again I don't even know what will happen. 534 00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,000 Right. Yeah. 535 00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:31,000 And then you go back to the old adages you can't teach an old dog new tricks. 536 00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:39,000 I think you know we can. That's the thing. I'm 57 and I've probably changed half of my life over the last year and a half. 537 00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,000 It's possible we just don't believe it's possible. 538 00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:47,000 Neuroplasticity is very real and it's very valuable because that's our makeup. 539 00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:50,000 That's actually our biology. 540 00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:56,000 Yeah. And I love that. And I love I love carving these new brain pathways. 541 00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:59,000 It is so possible to rewire. 542 00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:10,000 And that's even why I love when you were that your matrix podcast because it is kind of like the matrix and how you can recode. 543 00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:13,000 You can replace old codes with new codes. 544 00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:17,000 Yeah. It's that. And so that is when you've asked like how do I work with men. 545 00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:22,000 That is one of the things we're doing. We're taking out old codes that no longer serve. 546 00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:30,000 They probably were put in in you know if they're put in the 90s and it was like completely different technology back then. 547 00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,000 And it's like OK this code is actually blocking the heart. 548 00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:37,000 This code is actually just making you self sabotage. 549 00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:44,000 It's unnecessary. And it's how do we update these codes. How do we keep doing program updates. 550 00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:47,000 So you're at the latest technologies of yourself. 551 00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:52,000 And going back you know because I know you're not bashing ice pass. 552 00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:55,000 You're suggesting just don't stop there. 553 00:55:55,000 --> 00:56:12,000 That's the key is but ice bass are sort of a very quick way to realize to challenge yourself to say can I do something hard because I think that's what a lot of men today are really searching for is you know is this it. 554 00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:22,000 Can I do something harder. And I think men are waking up to wanting more of that new life rather than just being sedated by the old. 555 00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:30,000 I want to switch gears for a second because you brought it up from your perspective. 556 00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:35,000 What did you think of the matrix because we started this podcast out of a conversation like that. 557 00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:41,000 What what did what captured you about the matrix. 558 00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:53,000 I very much resonated with the socialization into a world that you can be awakened from. 559 00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:56,000 You can then love it. 560 00:56:56,000 --> 00:57:08,000 Yeah you wake up and you're like what the like I had someone say to me the other day they're like I would have been the guy who would have wanted to stay in the matrix. 561 00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:17,000 It's like that guy you mean the guy who like betrayed his friends and got them killed like what are we talking about. 562 00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:23,000 It's always better to be that person to wake up to see reality. 563 00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:39,000 I'm committed to wanting to know the reality as close as I can possibly get to it to be as strong as possible in it to have my map my cartographer of hell map because I feel so much stronger for it. 564 00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:49,000 And so that's what I love about the matrix is we can have in the Neo does this I think by the I don't remember which one when he finally gets it right. 565 00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:53,000 When he when it finally all clicks for him and he can see the codes in front of him. 566 00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:59,000 I actually cried watching that scene rewatching it from my version of myself at this age. 567 00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:06,000 I'm almost 40. But from this point of view where it's like the codes were just in front of him and he's like I get it. 568 00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:15,000 He was just like calmly like you know and he fights and he's like bored and he's he stops with bullet and he's just like. 569 00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:22,000 That is true power when you see these codes when you see what's going on here and you know what to do. 570 00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:31,000 That's again maybe a visual that scene in the movie of what deep power is. 571 00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:37,000 If you were a character in the movie who are you. 572 00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:43,000 Here's what we asked this of a lot of our guests if you're one of the characters who are you. 573 00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:47,000 And if it doesn't matter to anybody. 574 00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:50,000 I am you. I am you. I would have. 575 00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:52,000 Yeah. Yeah. 576 00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:57,000 Why did Nia stand up stand out to you. 577 00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:04,000 I just I have gone through so many rounds of these initiations. 578 00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:17,000 These rough initiations where half the time you're like what is happening what is this you know you're not sure where it's going and you see the building your capacities as you go. 579 00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:29,000 Because yeah one of the big things is he's like am I like am I here to figure this out like he's questioning often and that is a really common beautiful heroes journey. 580 00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:39,000 To go through these periods of doubt and trying to you know trusting your trust in the past and then you finally get there and you're like oh OK. 581 00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:45,000 Yeah. Yeah. Like I can do it. 582 00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:53,000 And that's where it's if now that I am someone who's gotten I have gone through I can't even tell you the amount of suffering the amount of pain. 583 00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:58,000 I'm a tiny person. If I can do it anyone can. 584 00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:10,000 And so that's where I just feel so passionate about wanting people to have the same kind of freedom that I have now known possible. 585 01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:15,000 That's that is the message there is there are ways to heal. 586 01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:19,000 There is freedom to be had and peace to be had. 587 01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:23,000 And if I can do it anyone can. 588 01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:26,000 You said your journey started around nine. Is that when you said. 589 01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:32,000 Age nine. Yeah when you really started listening to what was happening in your life is that when you started. 590 01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:37,000 Oh no I I mean I was born just one of these sensitive souls. 591 01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:40,000 You were. Yeah. 592 01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:51,000 If you were to look back at yourself in that in those sort of one of the really hard moments where you just could only survive through. 593 01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:56,000 What would you say back to that person. To you yourself back then. 594 01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:59,000 What would you say. I would say. 595 01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:01,000 Well done. 596 01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:12,000 Well done. The it it's and I'm not saying that because I handled it perfectly because I did you know some beautiful job like it was rough and I was surviving. 597 01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:22,000 And well done for getting through. And so that's where I had so much empathy for people who shut down people who go numb. 598 01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:37,000 We have to to get through those phases especially sensitive souls and I think we're I think that's one of the most valuable things that I learned probably last year a mentor helped me see that is. 599 01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:43,000 It's okay to just be completely lost. 600 01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:55,000 The survival act was enough. You got through. That's it. You did your job. But guess what was my job to learn later but you got learning that I could go back to my 12 year old self. 601 01:01:55,000 --> 01:02:18,000 Because I just went to Hawaii with my wife and I didn't realize I went back to the the location I had been there in 28 years where we went as a family through my parents divorce and I was able to sit with myself on the beach strand had as the waves were crashing on me and it was just a very healing moment to realize. 602 01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:32,000 You survived and I cried I cried very significantly because I realized man I had left so much pain on that beach and I could sit with myself and go you did your job and I think most people don't realize they can do that. 603 01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:41,000 They can go back and actually change the story because you can't change the event but you can change your assessment of yourself in the event. 604 01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:59,000 And you can re write the ending you can yes you know it doesn't have to end where you think the memory ends. Yes there can be a new ending a reclaimed ending that is so much better than you can imagine. 605 01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:11,000 Yeah I love that story and I have very similar ideas of how this like I am always being revisited and revisiting whatever arises and this is that whole not being afraid of what's inside of you. 606 01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:20,000 Because your body will tell you when it's ready to let it go it'll tell you and I think if you're but if you're not listening for the signal then it's hard to hear it. 607 01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:32,000 And then it'll kind of bash you upside the head and say hey wait a minute listen because that's my own self sabotage techniques were always me trying to tell myself. 608 01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:40,000 I've I'm not addressing something I'm not listening to something and and kind of waking up to that. 609 01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:53,000 If what did you think because I know you're Neil and that was exactly who I thought you'd pick. What do you think of Trinity as a character because Trinity I think is the biggest badass. 610 01:03:53,000 --> 01:04:09,000 Do you know what do you think. Well she's the first she's the first character introduced. And what we see is she's the she's the she's the antithesis of what we think a traditional female model role model is she's both she's both masculine feminine she's kicking 611 01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:19,000 names and she knows who she is and I think that's she's sort of the hero because she inspires Neil. 612 01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:35,000 Yeah my mind went to she is way more self assured. She's very like there's no question in her mind what's going on. Yeah. Yeah she's she's the version we all aim for. 613 01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:50,000 We all love to be Trinity that way. You know I'm more of a fumbling bumbling my way through suffering versus but then now when you get to that point I mean Neo joins her in that. 614 01:04:50,000 --> 01:05:04,000 That's what I mean. She's the hero. She inspires him to move up to believe in love. Yeah. And I think that's why people when people look at that move we had a gentleman that we interviewed and he picked Trinity and I said that's awesome because she is the hero. 615 01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:18,000 The story she is the one who got it right and she's the inspirer and she's the energy of the movie and I think for women looking at that movie going well I don't know it's no you have the most badass character. 616 01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:25,000 You really do new had to kind of come around to get it. She got it from the very beginning. So 617 01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:37,000 very few of us are born that way. Yes very true very very true. It's something you aspire to. 618 01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:49,000 Prima what are you doing now. In my work. Yes. Are you writing any more articles is this something you because I was I was inspired by the article. Is that something you're doing regularly. 619 01:05:49,000 --> 01:06:10,000 It's something I'm moving into. So I finished in PhD that took me eight years and now I'm coming back in to share my work. And so I I'm writing another remark and I are writing another article right now. So look for it. It's actually about the beast within men. 620 01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:14,000 So really tell me what's the synopsis. 621 01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:27,000 The synopsis is we actually got we do a bit of a deep dive into the story of iron john do you know this. Oh my god that's one of my favorite books my mentor introduced me to that 30 years. Yeah. I totally yeah. Yeah. So we go natural. 622 01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:44,000 The key under the mom's pillow is one of the arcs of human. Yeah. Most males yes. Yes. Most people don't even know that story. So if you're listening to this go find this article because our John is a seminal men's book. Yeah. Exactly. 623 01:06:44,000 --> 01:07:01,000 I don't even know these. I just kept getting handed like James Hollis and different things. So I'm doing more deep dives of like what's going on in the wounding of men. But again my specialty is grief. My specialty is grief. So I'm going to be like I'm publishing in academic journals and I'm speaking at conferences. 624 01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:29,000 But I am also doing like this men's wounding. I love men. I have very passionate about this. It's complicated. It's so complicated. And we I love that you're doing this podcast. I love that you're having these conversations that inspires me to know that like these spaces are being created to have hard conversations and dip in to the ice baths. 625 01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:58,000 Kareem it's been an absolute pleasure having you. I've loved this hour because I think one of the things that we are very passionate about is helping people not just men but people find ways to overcome. And I think everybody can really learn from you today because just the act of listening turning around and finding your curse to look at your compartmentalized stuff is very valuable because as I always say on a lot of my Instagram stuff is when you let it go you have a lot more energy and that's your true power. 626 01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:22,000 And so thank you for clarifying a lot of that for us and really helping us see it's sort of a simple progression. So this has been fantastic. So thank you for joining us today. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. So to everyone who's listening rich will be back next week and please comment and review. We'd love to hear from you. You have a guest you'd like us to interview. Please send them our way. Much love everybody. 627 01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:42,000 Thank you.