1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,600
the Matrix. I'm Jonathan and I'm left of center.

2
00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,600
And I'm rich and I tend to lean a little bit more to the right.

3
00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:08,400
But the bottom line is is together.

4
00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,800
We try to look for the balance of what it means to be human in today's world.

5
00:00:14,900 --> 00:00:16,700
Welcome everybody. You're living in the Matrix.

6
00:00:16,700 --> 00:00:19,500
I'm Jonathan. This is my coast rich say hello rich.

7
00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,800
Happy Friday everybody and happy Mother's Day weekend to come.

8
00:00:24,100 --> 00:00:27,800
We know mothers are so important to us and I'm looking forward to how they can

9
00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,700
nurture and hear more about what our guest has to say about helping out with

10
00:00:31,700 --> 00:00:34,000
trauma. And we know moms are good at that,

11
00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:35,300
but let's see what Dr.

12
00:00:35,300 --> 00:00:37,200
Dell has to say about some of these things as well.

13
00:00:37,900 --> 00:00:41,100
Yeah. So we have today Dr.

14
00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:42,300
Adam Dell.

15
00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:49,200
He's a clinical psychologist and certified trauma expert and he is a therapist

16
00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:51,500
for the staff of Notre Dame.

17
00:00:51,700 --> 00:00:55,200
And I that just blew my mind having a job title like that.

18
00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:56,900
Dr.

19
00:00:56,900 --> 00:00:57,800
Dell. Welcome.

20
00:00:57,800 --> 00:00:58,600
It's pleasure to have you.

21
00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:00,000
Thanks Jonathan.

22
00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:00,500
Thanks Rich.

23
00:01:00,500 --> 00:01:01,600
It's an honor to be here.

24
00:01:03,100 --> 00:01:12,200
So I want to start with what captured my attention in inviting you was this

25
00:01:12,700 --> 00:01:15,900
narrative through your content on Instagram.

26
00:01:15,900 --> 00:01:21,200
You're a you present a lot of really great content around the concept of

27
00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:28,000
trauma for our audience help us understand what is trauma.

28
00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:31,600
Yeah, that's a great question.

29
00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,900
I is such such a term that's pretty ubiquitous and it's utilization in our

30
00:01:35,900 --> 00:01:38,000
culture now from, you know,

31
00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:43,500
the cancelization of a favorite series on Netflix to something that we might

32
00:01:43,500 --> 00:01:50,400
refer to as like a capital T trauma and like evidence-based trauma therapy

33
00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:54,700
communities, which the diagnostic and statistical manual mental health

34
00:01:54,700 --> 00:02:02,100
disorders would define as exposure to something graphic and real and

35
00:02:02,100 --> 00:02:02,900
threatening.

36
00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,400
So things that are really common that I've done therapy with certainly

37
00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,400
as an active duty officer in the Air Force for almost seven years certainly

38
00:02:11,900 --> 00:02:17,900
had exposure to working with Marines and soldiers and airmen who had had

39
00:02:17,900 --> 00:02:20,500
combat related trauma exposure.

40
00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:22,800
Really, I you know,

41
00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:27,700
I teach a trauma course at Wheaton College and teach teach in their

42
00:02:27,700 --> 00:02:29,400
trauma certification program.

43
00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:36,900
So the the the giant trauma literature differentiates between two types of

44
00:02:36,900 --> 00:02:42,400
trauma non interpersonal trauma and interpersonal trauma and this is true in

45
00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,500
the epidemiological literature for both kids adolescents and adults.

46
00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:52,300
There's that big split and overwhelmingly interpersonal trauma that is

47
00:02:52,300 --> 00:02:59,100
between persons trauma like sexual assault physical violence witnessing

48
00:02:59,100 --> 00:03:03,800
someone harming someone else combat related trauma these types of things

49
00:03:04,300 --> 00:03:09,100
have a far greater likelihood of setting someone down the trajectory of

50
00:03:09,100 --> 00:03:14,000
post-traumatic stress contrasted with non interpersonal trauma,

51
00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:19,000
which listen certainly is really disruptive a hurricane tornado natural

52
00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:20,600
disaster a house fire.

53
00:03:20,900 --> 00:03:26,900
Those types of things are horrible and can cause long-term psychopathology

54
00:03:26,900 --> 00:03:28,700
or post-traumatic stress thereafter,

55
00:03:28,700 --> 00:03:32,700
but it's really non interpersonal trauma that I oftentimes am working with

56
00:03:32,700 --> 00:03:37,500
as a psychologist and that's what I do a lot of teaching about you have a

57
00:03:37,500 --> 00:03:43,500
lot of content around kind of the concepts of triggering and triggers help

58
00:03:43,500 --> 00:03:49,900
us understand what is a trigger because you had and I want to set this up a

59
00:03:49,900 --> 00:03:53,800
little bit of you had a line in there of the smell of the alcohol on the

60
00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:58,400
perpetrators breath that the trigger is not just something you think about it's

61
00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:03,300
something you actually feel you experience again and it's unwanted.

62
00:04:03,300 --> 00:04:05,100
So help us unpack that a little bit.

63
00:04:06,900 --> 00:04:07,500
Yeah.

64
00:04:07,500 --> 00:04:07,800
Yeah.

65
00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:14,000
Well, so, you know when we encode memories we do so through our senses.

66
00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,900
So, you know, this is why if you have any experience with young kids man,

67
00:04:19,900 --> 00:04:21,800
everything's going in the mouth.

68
00:04:22,500 --> 00:04:27,700
They're tasting things and licking things and touching things and this is

69
00:04:27,700 --> 00:04:30,800
how we perceive the world and you know,

70
00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:35,400
one of the things that I've borrowed from various approaches to trauma

71
00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,400
therapy is when you're sitting down with someone and you're just kind of

72
00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:40,100
explaining this process.

73
00:04:40,500 --> 00:04:44,400
Sometimes it's helpful to think about, you know, for you gentlemen now or

74
00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:49,500
for anyone listening to this if I were to say the word dog and if you were

75
00:04:49,500 --> 00:04:54,500
to in a very rudimentary way if you were to think about your memory network

76
00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:59,100
as a file system like what you might find on your desktop on a computer.

77
00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,200
You've got a file there.

78
00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:03,000
Labeled dog.

79
00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:07,200
And if you open to that up, there's a ton of stuff in there man.

80
00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,100
Like if you ever had a dog that stuff's in there.

81
00:05:10,900 --> 00:05:16,600
If you can think of famous dogs, you know from from Lassie and Rin Tin Tin

82
00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,200
to Bluey and you know more contemporary.

83
00:05:20,300 --> 00:05:23,400
If you ever had an emotional experience with dogs, if you ever got bit by a dog

84
00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:25,000
you can think of breeds of dogs.

85
00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,100
You can think of all kinds of stuff related to dogs.

86
00:05:27,100 --> 00:05:33,500
And then if I said ocean you could very quickly find that file.

87
00:05:33,700 --> 00:05:37,200
And if you've ever taken a trip to the ocean, you could also think of sensory

88
00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:37,500
things.

89
00:05:37,500 --> 00:05:41,900
I think as somebody who's in northern Indiana, I think of seafood and just

90
00:05:41,900 --> 00:05:45,900
unbelievable stuff that I miss from living closer to the the coast.

91
00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:51,000
And in what's fascinating is if you allowed yourself to open up the ocean

92
00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,400
file, you're not thinking about dogs anymore.

93
00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:59,400
And then what happens in a trauma event is you're going through a fairly normal

94
00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,100
day and then the ineffable occurs.

95
00:06:04,300 --> 00:06:09,400
Like sexual assault is not something that anybody has a file for at least

96
00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:11,100
not the first time that it happens.

97
00:06:11,700 --> 00:06:17,700
And so you're taking in information in in in it literally like definitionally

98
00:06:17,700 --> 00:06:25,700
incomprehensible setting and there's smell and there's taste and there's

99
00:06:25,700 --> 00:06:33,700
touch feel and there's smells and the problem with trauma related sensory

100
00:06:33,700 --> 00:06:37,100
memory is because there's not a file for it.

101
00:06:37,300 --> 00:06:41,600
It never actually gets put away in the same way that you've already filed away

102
00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:42,600
dog and ocean.

103
00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:48,400
And so for many survivors young and old they will move forward in their life

104
00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,200
no longer in acute danger.

105
00:06:51,900 --> 00:06:59,400
However, anything reminiscent of that sensory artifact can immediately

106
00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:08,300
elicit a re-experiencing event which feels as as threatening and as as

107
00:07:08,300 --> 00:07:16,100
overwhelming as the initial exposure to that and so individuals will start

108
00:07:16,900 --> 00:07:20,500
unbelievable cascading waves of avoidance.

109
00:07:20,900 --> 00:07:25,900
It's like I avoid any shows that might remind me of that kind of content.

110
00:07:25,900 --> 00:07:30,000
I avoid as much as I can the memories that I have of that.

111
00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,000
I avoid going certain places.

112
00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,900
I avoid wearing the same outfit or doing similar things.

113
00:07:35,900 --> 00:07:41,500
I avoid avoid avoid avoid and you know, there's a there's a line in acceptance

114
00:07:41,500 --> 00:07:42,400
and commitment therapy.

115
00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:47,600
It's like control your thoughts and emotions and lose your life and doesn't

116
00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,100
necessarily mean that you kill yourself, but it does mean that you radically

117
00:07:51,100 --> 00:07:57,900
amputate away major territory of your life out of fear that you might have a

118
00:07:57,900 --> 00:08:00,800
re-experiencing event as a psychologist.

119
00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:07,700
I think one of the things that ends up becoming one of the quintessential

120
00:08:07,700 --> 00:08:13,400
privileges of my career is to help someone to confront the hell of their

121
00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:17,300
history and also take back that territory in their life.

122
00:08:17,300 --> 00:08:20,600
Once they reach the point where it's like enough is a freaking enough of

123
00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:26,600
this the more I avoid it's like a self-amplifying loop for my anxiety in

124
00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:32,400
the short term it makes me feel somewhat relieved but ultimately it just makes

125
00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:37,800
the stuff I'm avoiding just rise in terms of its fearfulness.

126
00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:43,700
And so when individuals decide to confront that either in their memory and

127
00:08:43,700 --> 00:08:48,600
sort of unpacking that with me in therapy or in taking back parts of their

128
00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:54,400
life what it ends up doing is creating that file like constructing a

129
00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,800
narrative and being able to put it away not in a way that they have amnesia for

130
00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:05,100
it but in a way that they're no longer so quote triggered by these things

131
00:09:05,100 --> 00:09:11,100
because they're sort of out of a file network and not consolidated.

132
00:09:11,100 --> 00:09:16,700
Yeah, one of the things you've also brought up is and this is a similar line

133
00:09:16,700 --> 00:09:19,500
is like because of this I can't right?

134
00:09:19,500 --> 00:09:23,100
I think you've mentioned that a couple times because and this the spectrum is

135
00:09:23,100 --> 00:09:26,000
wide open for what that could categorize right?

136
00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:32,200
Can you flesh that a little bit more in terms of that and how does your your

137
00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:37,300
faith inform your practice because I think you know you're you're teaching at

138
00:09:37,300 --> 00:09:40,800
Wheaton or you've been at Wheaton I think you know I think one of your

139
00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,900
earlier podcasts talked about transcending your identity.

140
00:09:43,900 --> 00:09:50,600
So first part is help us unpack the idea of I can't oh I can't because of this

141
00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,400
and how your faith informs your practice.

142
00:09:54,400 --> 00:10:03,600
Yeah, I've been undeniably influenced by in terms of being a therapist by

143
00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:09,300
acceptance and commitment therapy and for your listeners, you know, I think any

144
00:10:09,300 --> 00:10:13,400
therapist worth it worth their salt is going to be able to tell you really

145
00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:17,600
early on sort of here's my background and training and here's what I'd have to

146
00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:22,700
offer to you in the way of a particular approach and I think arguably there is

147
00:10:22,700 --> 00:10:27,600
no better research-supported approach to therapy in the last 30 years or so than

148
00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:34,000
acceptance and commitment therapy and you know we could probably do about 10

149
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:39,500
of these and fill the time unpacking what Stephen Hayes and his colleagues

150
00:10:39,500 --> 00:10:43,100
have done in the last 30 or 40 years in that tradition.

151
00:10:43,100 --> 00:10:49,400
You know from that approach the vast majority of self-inflicted suffering

152
00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:54,100
now lots of us will experience suffering you asked about trauma earlier is like

153
00:10:54,100 --> 00:10:58,600
the World Health Organization would estimate that for the three of us and

154
00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,300
anybody listen into this that over the course of our life on average will have

155
00:11:02,300 --> 00:11:06,100
three or four serious trauma exposures somebody that we love will die maybe

156
00:11:06,100 --> 00:11:12,600
right in front of us or will be seriously harmed or interestingly even

157
00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:18,200
listening to repeated trauma stories can cause a vicarious traumatization and

158
00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,200
it's for that reason you know psychiatrists have a very high rate of

159
00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:30,300
suicide. I've had colleagues in my profession who've died by suicide just the

160
00:11:30,300 --> 00:11:36,000
vicarious traumatization of that and so you know that's a ubiquitous phenomenon

161
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,800
we're going to have trauma exposure and in a lot of times that can come external

162
00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:46,100
of us but the reality is that even though it's not the most popular thing

163
00:11:46,100 --> 00:11:51,400
to put on your therapy marketing page sometimes we're not the victim of our

164
00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:57,100
circumstance we are the architect of it and when we architect our own suffering

165
00:11:57,100 --> 00:12:03,000
one of the primary ways we do that are the rules that we establish that kind of

166
00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:08,500
govern our life things that we say to ourselves that we can do or that we can't

167
00:12:08,500 --> 00:12:14,800
do things that we say that we are or that we are not typically these rules

168
00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:20,100
have a lot to do with us with relationships with the world and with

169
00:12:20,100 --> 00:12:26,500
the future and we live in like prisoners to these rules like we're shackled by

170
00:12:26,500 --> 00:12:33,900
them and the two things that kind of flow from those rules tend to be

171
00:12:33,900 --> 00:12:39,600
experiential and emotional avoidance meaning because I have these rules I'm

172
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,700
not the kind of person that would do this kind of a thing or I can't feel

173
00:12:43,700 --> 00:12:49,700
certain feelings and I'm a big books guy you know I think leaders are readers is

174
00:12:49,700 --> 00:12:55,400
a line that I learned early on in the Air Force as an officer and you know I

175
00:12:55,400 --> 00:13:02,300
think that it's really wise for us to turn to subject matter experts and I

176
00:13:02,300 --> 00:13:05,500
really appreciate the content that you guys have on a podcast like this where

177
00:13:05,500 --> 00:13:09,300
you're bringing in subject matter experts from their own kind of areas and

178
00:13:09,300 --> 00:13:13,500
disciplines to talk about the threads that actually are common across humanity

179
00:13:13,500 --> 00:13:20,800
I think it's it's it's it's particularly perspicacious for us to to think about

180
00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:32,200
how if if we tend to as a species want to avoid as a survival tactic and we

181
00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:37,800
tend to avoid and we live in a culture where there's never been more access to

182
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:42,300
things to help us to numb and avoid like Anna Lemke writes a lot about this in

183
00:13:42,300 --> 00:13:45,660
her book dopamine nation which is one of those books that I think is just a

184
00:13:45,660 --> 00:13:51,700
brilliant thing for almost anybody to take a look at she basically says that

185
00:13:51,700 --> 00:13:56,420
we are cacti in a rain forest you know we are built for scarcity but we are

186
00:13:56,420 --> 00:14:01,020
surrounded with so much stuff that is hedonic and numbing and pleasure

187
00:14:01,020 --> 00:14:08,340
oriented so we literally live in a culture where it's very very easy for us

188
00:14:08,340 --> 00:14:16,540
to binge on screens to binge on food to binge on porn to binge on alcohol or

189
00:14:16,540 --> 00:14:26,060
drugs to just try to avoid you know certain things so so so these rules that

190
00:14:26,060 --> 00:14:32,180
basically govern our lives walk us in these a limited subtractive ways of being

191
00:14:32,180 --> 00:14:38,300
and they cause a lot of suffering for us and so in the tradition of acceptance

192
00:14:38,300 --> 00:14:43,540
and commitment therapy or act you know sometimes I think one of the really cool

193
00:14:43,540 --> 00:14:46,820
things that I get to do with people is just teach them how to disobey their own

194
00:14:46,820 --> 00:14:54,500
mind I was just working with somebody the other day and you know it's like

195
00:14:54,500 --> 00:14:59,780
many people will come to see us because they have something in their life that

196
00:14:59,780 --> 00:15:04,020
they'd like to have changed or different you know it's like oh and you might think

197
00:15:04,020 --> 00:15:08,660
of that as like the problem of what's present you know I've got depression and

198
00:15:08,660 --> 00:15:11,940
I want that down I've got anxiety or I've had trauma memories I want that

199
00:15:11,940 --> 00:15:15,820
down some people will seek me out because of my military background for

200
00:15:15,820 --> 00:15:19,660
very health related things I've got insomnia I've got premature ejaculation

201
00:15:19,660 --> 00:15:24,820
I've got chronic pain I've got I need to lose weight these things all have very

202
00:15:24,820 --> 00:15:30,940
behavioral treatments that are effective and helpful and and so yeah I was work

203
00:15:30,940 --> 00:15:34,460
with a lot of people that are interested in losing weight and you know sometimes

204
00:15:34,460 --> 00:15:41,300
we'll attack these arbitrary rules just to flex agency a little bit so for

205
00:15:41,300 --> 00:15:46,020
example we'll have somebody go through a drive-through of their favorite you know

206
00:15:46,020 --> 00:15:50,500
another great book Van Teleken wrote a book called ultra processed people had

207
00:15:50,500 --> 00:15:54,100
changed my life last year when I read that we'll have somebody pick their

208
00:15:54,100 --> 00:15:57,900
their favorite self sabotaging place to go for food where there's just nothing

209
00:15:57,900 --> 00:16:02,780
but ultra processed food and they'll order their favorite meal they'll pay

210
00:16:02,780 --> 00:16:07,700
for it they'll take one bite and they'll throw the rest of it away just to kind

211
00:16:07,700 --> 00:16:12,260
of like disobey these rules in their mind that I always finish this garbage

212
00:16:12,260 --> 00:16:18,060
and and and you know there's probably a million little examples like that but

213
00:16:18,060 --> 00:16:23,460
it's kind of like how can I identify these rules and then flex my agency in

214
00:16:23,460 --> 00:16:29,060
the direction of self-compassion so that I can build a more meaningful life and

215
00:16:29,060 --> 00:16:34,940
so when I when I work with people I think everybody has avoidance as a theme

216
00:16:34,940 --> 00:16:37,980
song in their life you don't have to be traumatized and have that be your

217
00:16:37,980 --> 00:16:44,300
presenting issue identifying the costs of avoidance helps us to not only deal

218
00:16:44,300 --> 00:16:48,580
with the problem of what's present but I think the far more impactful thing is

219
00:16:48,580 --> 00:16:52,620
the psychologist is to help people to start dealing with the problem of what's

220
00:16:52,620 --> 00:16:58,380
absent like I've got this pain and I've got this history and maybe I've had some

221
00:16:58,380 --> 00:17:03,540
trauma and I've got all these patterns of avoidance and what in the world has

222
00:17:03,540 --> 00:17:09,620
that cut me off from what am I saying no to that I could flip the switch to yes

223
00:17:09,620 --> 00:17:16,700
on I know that's an awful lot I don't mean to just go on and on but it's it

224
00:17:16,700 --> 00:17:24,940
really brings to the point of people have learned how biologically I think

225
00:17:24,940 --> 00:17:32,660
we're waking up to the reality that we create our own trauma that's a new

226
00:17:32,660 --> 00:17:38,420
concept like that's a new idea that people are chewing on and really

227
00:17:38,420 --> 00:17:44,220
recognizing holy cow now what because mental health when I was a child was

228
00:17:44,220 --> 00:17:49,420
exceptional you did it because you had to now it's proactive where you're doing

229
00:17:49,420 --> 00:17:55,220
because you want to coaches are exploding and that graduation means that

230
00:17:55,220 --> 00:18:02,660
I think we're at a turning point of people waking up to I do have trauma you

231
00:18:02,660 --> 00:18:07,180
listed like a couple that were you know like a car crash or a death in the

232
00:18:07,180 --> 00:18:12,100
family everybody's experienced it and they don't understand how it can be a

233
00:18:12,100 --> 00:18:19,300
creeping limiter yeah I think I think that that's I think that's an important

234
00:18:19,300 --> 00:18:23,220
thing to consider you know one of the things that I find really hopeful about

235
00:18:23,220 --> 00:18:29,820
the epidemiological literature around trauma from like the International

236
00:18:29,820 --> 00:18:34,380
Society for Traumatic Stress Studies is the authoritative text that I use in the

237
00:18:34,380 --> 00:18:39,500
in the course that I teach at Wheaton because it is it's more global in its

238
00:18:39,500 --> 00:18:44,060
scope and it's not just like based on the American Psychiatric Association

239
00:18:44,060 --> 00:18:48,300
here's what's really really cool you know it's extremely common that I'll

240
00:18:48,300 --> 00:18:53,620
sit down with parents that are horrified and and the reason that they're horrified

241
00:18:53,620 --> 00:18:59,340
is their three-year-old has had something that was you know in their

242
00:18:59,340 --> 00:19:05,340
mind traumatic and maybe definitionally it actually was and so they'll they'll

243
00:19:05,340 --> 00:19:10,780
seek out sort of the counsel of a psychologist to say like what do we do

244
00:19:10,780 --> 00:19:15,420
now you know like oh my goodness they must come in with the expectation that

245
00:19:15,420 --> 00:19:23,100
any possibility for a normal trajectory has been oblivious and what I think is

246
00:19:23,100 --> 00:19:29,060
so fascinating about these international studies and this comes from all over the

247
00:19:29,060 --> 00:19:34,540
globe including kids that have been completely marginalized or placed in

248
00:19:34,540 --> 00:19:41,620
refugee communities is when young kids are exposed to traumatic events 50% of

249
00:19:41,620 --> 00:19:46,380
them take a resiliency pathway meaning they never have any kind of post

250
00:19:46,380 --> 00:19:51,300
traumatic stress it's distressing for them for a few days because that's just

251
00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:55,220
the nature of what traumatic event is two percent they return back to normal

252
00:19:55,220 --> 00:20:02,300
the next 25% bringing it to 75% are upset for a little while but not even a

253
00:20:02,300 --> 00:20:08,980
month and then they completely returned back to baseline so of the remaining 25%

254
00:20:08,980 --> 00:20:14,540
some of them will develop PTSD and some of them might become pretty vulnerable

255
00:20:14,540 --> 00:20:21,100
to other psychiatric symptomatology what I think is really hopeful about that is

256
00:20:21,100 --> 00:20:26,100
if a young person or an old person experiences a trauma chances are way

257
00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:30,140
better than not that they are not going to develop post-traumatic stress

258
00:20:30,140 --> 00:20:36,700
disorder and surprise yeah by that number here yeah would you say that's

259
00:20:36,700 --> 00:20:41,540
20 yeah that's true for that that's true for the adult literature as well yeah

260
00:20:41,540 --> 00:20:46,180
but you know we think of kids is like so much more malleable and vulnerable and

261
00:20:46,180 --> 00:20:50,760
and you know just in case there's parents listening right one of the

262
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:59,340
biggest predictors for how your kid will fare after a trauma is parental coping

263
00:20:59,340 --> 00:21:05,220
so it's like the expectations that a parent has not to do not to be

264
00:21:05,220 --> 00:21:12,140
dismissive or ignore or you know invalidate but expectations really

265
00:21:12,140 --> 00:21:18,060
really matter and for parents to come alongside a child with accurate sense of

266
00:21:18,060 --> 00:21:23,820
empathy but also to instill hope with pathway thinking about how we're gonna

267
00:21:23,820 --> 00:21:28,540
get back in the regular rhythm of things and we're gonna get through this as a

268
00:21:28,540 --> 00:21:32,980
family and we're never gonna leave you abandoned you or forsake you and we

269
00:21:32,980 --> 00:21:37,220
believe that we're gonna march through this compared to like I can't believe I

270
00:21:37,220 --> 00:21:40,620
let this happen and like everything is over now we got to take you to 16

271
00:21:40,620 --> 00:21:43,260
different weird creepy mental health people that are all gonna over

272
00:21:43,260 --> 00:21:45,740
stigmatize you and maybe a couple of others that have put you on

273
00:21:45,740 --> 00:21:51,580
psychotropic beds and it's like you know I oftentimes just think like you know my

274
00:21:51,580 --> 00:21:56,520
goodness this literature is so instructive now can you take population

275
00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,060
literature like population do like that and apply it perfectly to any one

276
00:22:00,060 --> 00:22:04,860
individual kid or family no of course not but I think there's a lot of truth

277
00:22:04,860 --> 00:22:10,100
in the masses of data that have been compiled and it's a really really

278
00:22:10,100 --> 00:22:15,300
hopeful thing I'd also say gentlemen that like my profession is all our our

279
00:22:15,300 --> 00:22:21,260
diagnostic system is is is literally horrible and again we could talk about

280
00:22:21,260 --> 00:22:25,660
that for a whole nother one of these in terms of just nothing's homogeneous in

281
00:22:25,660 --> 00:22:29,660
our diagnostic system you know there's there's literally hundreds of thousands

282
00:22:29,660 --> 00:22:34,460
hundreds of thousands of combinations of symptoms that would all be different

283
00:22:34,460 --> 00:22:37,860
that would all get the label of PTSD like what in the world is that that's

284
00:22:37,860 --> 00:22:41,900
not even a son even a diagnostic category that's like half of humanity you

285
00:22:41,900 --> 00:22:45,900
know it's like what are we so there's huge problems with that but also I think

286
00:22:45,900 --> 00:22:50,060
a huge problem with my discipline and and maybe maybe you spoke to this

287
00:22:50,060 --> 00:22:55,660
Jonathan about I maybe it's changing a little bit but frankly I think that in

288
00:22:55,660 --> 00:23:00,540
my training I'm better at telling people what's wrong with them than what's

289
00:23:00,540 --> 00:23:06,740
right with them and that's a huge problem you know it's like individuals

290
00:23:06,740 --> 00:23:13,300
come to us and we are trained to assess and diagnose disorders and and and I

291
00:23:13,300 --> 00:23:18,500
wouldn't have known it 20 years ago when I was an undergraduate and working in a

292
00:23:18,500 --> 00:23:26,100
psychiatric hospital put myself through my undergrad but I know now that it's

293
00:23:26,100 --> 00:23:32,860
really common for trauma survivors to get to the other side of their traumatic

294
00:23:32,860 --> 00:23:38,380
experience and have manifest inside of them the various domains of post

295
00:23:38,380 --> 00:23:42,900
traumatic growth and and I would bet for some of the people listening to your

296
00:23:42,900 --> 00:23:47,980
podcast when we talked about post traumatic stress everybody's got sort of

297
00:23:47,980 --> 00:23:52,340
a construct for that in their head you know it's like oh yeah I saw that movie

298
00:23:52,340 --> 00:23:57,820
or you know my uncle Fred's a real weirdo you know like some veteran came

299
00:23:57,820 --> 00:24:03,380
home and da da da da da it's like I don't know why you know we don't

300
00:24:03,380 --> 00:24:08,460
emphasize the possibility of post traumatic growth but this is this is a

301
00:24:08,460 --> 00:24:13,360
theory that has been studied for a long time in many many cultures and it's got

302
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:18,540
an unbelievable coalescence like a really really beautiful coalescence with

303
00:24:18,540 --> 00:24:24,100
many of our wisdom traditions and I would say especially a Judeo-Christian

304
00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:31,460
worldview and so I think like being able to bear witness on the other side of the

305
00:24:31,460 --> 00:24:37,220
deep wounds associated with trauma with areas of post-traumatic growth is is

306
00:24:37,220 --> 00:24:41,980
perhaps like the highlight of my career doctor is there a categorical difference

307
00:24:41,980 --> 00:24:48,660
between trauma what we think is trauma done to us or trauma we do to ourselves

308
00:24:48,660 --> 00:24:52,860
you talked about interpersonal and non interpersonal is there a categorical

309
00:24:52,860 --> 00:24:55,860
difference between those two

310
00:24:56,340 --> 00:25:04,060
well so so interpersonal trauma would have to do with when when a person harms

311
00:25:04,060 --> 00:25:10,380
another person you know I'm witnessing somebody you know beat beat my mom you

312
00:25:10,380 --> 00:25:17,740
know as a kid or I'm experiencing sexual assault or or something like that a lot

313
00:25:17,740 --> 00:25:24,180
of times as a psychologist I'll work with individuals that engage in a lot of

314
00:25:24,180 --> 00:25:31,460
like a full a full range of self harmful behaviors and I think I would lump you

315
00:25:31,460 --> 00:25:34,940
know many compulsive addictive type behaviors in that but certainly also

316
00:25:34,940 --> 00:25:40,860
non suicidal self-injurious behaviors like cutting and cutting sure you know

317
00:25:40,860 --> 00:25:46,500
those things however and I'm probably not the subject matter expert to talk

318
00:25:46,500 --> 00:25:52,740
about that I've never heard of someone being diagnosed with with a trauma or a

319
00:25:52,740 --> 00:25:57,860
stressor related condition because they cut themselves in fact many of the times

320
00:25:57,860 --> 00:26:02,900
those types of behaviors are diagnostically considered to be more

321
00:26:02,900 --> 00:26:11,460
personality disordered then actually like a trauma or stressor related

322
00:26:11,460 --> 00:26:16,900
condition interesting okay are we the architects of great amounts of

323
00:26:16,900 --> 00:26:21,740
suffering in our lives and when I say we as in like a universal we like oh man

324
00:26:21,740 --> 00:26:26,780
yeah yeah and again I think it it boils down to the rules that we have and

325
00:26:26,780 --> 00:26:30,860
patterns of avoidance like if I can't feel certain things then I will

326
00:26:30,860 --> 00:26:36,100
literally turn to almost anything else to try to numb distract or get away from

327
00:26:36,100 --> 00:26:43,460
them yeah I think most people really struggle first rich and I have talked

328
00:26:43,460 --> 00:26:47,860
about this a lot I think most men struggle with emotional content in

329
00:26:47,860 --> 00:26:53,660
general emotions are something that men typically avoid and that's where a lot

330
00:26:53,660 --> 00:26:57,740
of trauma lives so it's like you can just live for trauma for a long time

331
00:26:57,740 --> 00:27:01,980
because you just avoid it really well that's sort of a male ethic or a

332
00:27:01,980 --> 00:27:10,860
masculine ethic and what happens is that other things arise to get you to feel

333
00:27:10,860 --> 00:27:16,060
because you have to feel and they usually end up being addictions and

334
00:27:16,060 --> 00:27:21,220
that's it's it I think it's men are struggling with how to deal with those

335
00:27:21,220 --> 00:27:28,420
loss of emotions yeah you know the Navajo people have a legendary story

336
00:27:28,420 --> 00:27:32,620
that that I learned years ago about how they discovered the Grand Canyon and the

337
00:27:32,620 --> 00:27:38,140
story similar to the gospel accounts in the New Testament is kind of so

338
00:27:38,140 --> 00:27:43,740
embarrassing for the main characters that it smacks of being true like if I

339
00:27:43,740 --> 00:27:47,820
had to write a New Testament I wouldn't have made the disciples such dumb asses

340
00:27:47,820 --> 00:27:56,180
you know and so anyway the legend and I think it's a very masculine story is one

341
00:27:56,180 --> 00:28:00,540
that I told a lot of Marines who tend to be the most hyper masculine of all the

342
00:28:00,540 --> 00:28:05,380
services that I worked with I mean I was in the chairforce man but like yeah I

343
00:28:05,380 --> 00:28:10,140
deployed with Marines and you know that's a different breed a cat all

344
00:28:10,140 --> 00:28:17,340
together but you know the Navajo people basically that the legend is that it was

345
00:28:17,340 --> 00:28:20,540
a teenage boy that discovered the Grand Canyon while he was on sort of a

346
00:28:20,540 --> 00:28:26,420
spiritual pilgrimage and he was by himself and he lived in a time

347
00:28:26,420 --> 00:28:31,140
conceivably where the people had lived within about a hundred and fifty miles of

348
00:28:31,140 --> 00:28:35,780
the rim of the canyon but hadn't discovered it yet and so it's really

349
00:28:35,780 --> 00:28:39,820
hard to kind of put yourself into that mindset but you know if you were to

350
00:28:39,820 --> 00:28:47,900
think about kind of the the strange mix of child and adult that a 15 year old is

351
00:28:47,900 --> 00:28:55,380
some of the bravado but also you know the unbelievable naivete and this person

352
00:28:55,380 --> 00:28:59,620
who has no conception of something like this finds himself alone and on the edge

353
00:28:59,620 --> 00:29:04,380
of this canyon on a horse and according to legend he was like so horrified by

354
00:29:04,380 --> 00:29:09,180
the specter of something that big that he must have surmised that he was on the

355
00:29:09,180 --> 00:29:15,860
edge of the world early jumped off his horse and tied himself to a tree next to

356
00:29:15,860 --> 00:29:20,780
the canyon because he was really afraid that he was gonna get sucked into the

357
00:29:20,780 --> 00:29:25,260
void and you know the Navajo people have a beautiful story about this I mean the

358
00:29:25,260 --> 00:29:29,080
people determined that he something had gone wrong in his pilgrimage and they

359
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,740
sort of tracked him there he had had several days of food of water with him

360
00:29:32,740 --> 00:29:36,420
and they sort of lovingly untied him and brought him away from the edge but I

361
00:29:36,420 --> 00:29:42,700
think that story is so relatable to many of us because we will undoubtedly

362
00:29:42,700 --> 00:29:46,500
experience canyon type moments in our life similar to what I mentioned trauma

363
00:29:46,500 --> 00:29:54,580
is it's an ineffable incomprehensible depth of ferocity that we cannot

364
00:29:54,580 --> 00:30:00,500
possibly comprehend and what we will be tempted to do is rather than take it in

365
00:30:00,500 --> 00:30:07,660
is to back away from it avoid it and tie ourself to literally anything that makes

366
00:30:07,660 --> 00:30:13,020
us feel more secure or safe even if it walks us right into the direction of our

367
00:30:13,020 --> 00:30:18,260
own demise yeah what's a simple analogy because you can see the boys the boy is

368
00:30:18,260 --> 00:30:24,020
afraid of the canyon which is anything that we're afraid of that's it he anchors

369
00:30:24,020 --> 00:30:28,380
himself to something that he feels like is stable and nothing is happening it

370
00:30:28,380 --> 00:30:34,300
but it's always imagination well this is why I think you know again our

371
00:30:34,300 --> 00:30:39,240
diagnostic system is pretty wonky and and men far outpace women in certain

372
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,140
diagnostic categories women far outpace men in certain diagnostic categories

373
00:30:43,140 --> 00:30:48,660
when it comes to chemical dependency men outpace women substantially we had you

374
00:30:48,660 --> 00:30:53,980
were in the military service so you were in the midst of sort of the ethic of the

375
00:30:53,980 --> 00:30:59,940
military is we have to go to war potentially so you got to emotionally

376
00:30:59,940 --> 00:31:05,060
prepare yourself for that and I think the ethic of hey I'm gonna grunt it out

377
00:31:05,060 --> 00:31:11,900
and push my emotions down because it's you know war is tough what's your take

378
00:31:11,900 --> 00:31:16,940
on that in terms of the balance of that because in a lot of cases I've worked

379
00:31:16,940 --> 00:31:24,180
with men for 30 years and it's it can be crippling you know it's really

380
00:31:24,180 --> 00:31:28,820
interesting to me I mean I only deployed once I deployed to an undisclosed

381
00:31:28,820 --> 00:31:36,380
location in the Middle East for about seven months in 2016 and that was in

382
00:31:36,380 --> 00:31:41,240
some ways the most difficult but also like the greatest highlight of my career

383
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:46,860
in the United States Air Force it was a heck of a thing to be over there and

384
00:31:46,860 --> 00:31:51,700
the sense of camaraderie there was unparalleled you know I really

385
00:31:51,700 --> 00:31:56,100
appreciated the teams and the bases that I worked at while I was stateside but

386
00:31:56,100 --> 00:32:07,500
everybody was making a significant sacrifice while we were there I think

387
00:32:07,500 --> 00:32:11,260
Sebastian Younger wrote a book a few years ago but it's really relevant to

388
00:32:11,260 --> 00:32:17,140
the question you raised called Tribe and you know he has a great TED talk on that

389
00:32:17,140 --> 00:32:21,540
subject brilliant guy is basically a reporter that was at war with many

390
00:32:21,540 --> 00:32:24,980
different countries for year after year after year after year after year just

391
00:32:24,980 --> 00:32:29,940
learned what he could from people who were deployed and draws some really

392
00:32:29,940 --> 00:32:35,660
interesting comparisons between like the US Armed Forces and for example the

393
00:32:35,660 --> 00:32:42,340
Israeli Armed Forces and I'll just give you like a little snippet to think about

394
00:32:42,340 --> 00:32:50,020
so what one of his fundamental hypotheses in the book is that connection

395
00:32:50,020 --> 00:32:56,300
is protection and so for example if you're an Israeli service member you are

396
00:32:56,300 --> 00:32:59,940
significantly more likely to experience combat related trauma than if you're a

397
00:32:59,940 --> 00:33:07,340
US service member however combat related PTSD in the Israeli Armed Forces almost

398
00:33:07,340 --> 00:33:12,420
non-existent and it's 50% of all service members are service connected with

399
00:33:12,420 --> 00:33:17,820
disability with PTSD in the US so that like that math doesn't make a lot of

400
00:33:17,820 --> 00:33:21,020
sense you know I'm not a research psychologist but even I can kind of

401
00:33:21,020 --> 00:33:25,100
sniff that out it's like if I'm an Israeli service member I'm much more

402
00:33:25,100 --> 00:33:28,860
likely to experience the thing that causes combat PTSD and I don't get it

403
00:33:28,860 --> 00:33:33,660
nearly as often as my American counterparts and one of the things that he suggests is

404
00:33:33,660 --> 00:33:39,700
that in Israel almost every able-bodied person serves in the military of course

405
00:33:39,700 --> 00:33:46,180
so when you go and you go into these sort of unknown hairy and scary

406
00:33:46,180 --> 00:33:51,020
environments and you're faced with these ineffable incomprehensible trauma

407
00:33:51,020 --> 00:33:56,260
experiences and then you come home almost everybody you went to high school

408
00:33:56,260 --> 00:33:59,980
with almost everybody you go to temple with almost everybody on your street

409
00:33:59,980 --> 00:34:04,860
also did something like that came home and has a life and can talk to you about

410
00:34:04,860 --> 00:34:09,700
it but also model something of post-traumatic growth for you it's like

411
00:34:09,700 --> 00:34:13,980
it's like less than 10% of the US population ever serves and it and the

412
00:34:13,980 --> 00:34:18,300
active-duty service component it's like 1% or something like that it's it's

413
00:34:18,300 --> 00:34:23,340
it's infinitesimally small and so it was certainly the case for me you know you

414
00:34:23,340 --> 00:34:28,580
come home from something like that and two or three people from my high school

415
00:34:28,580 --> 00:34:33,300
served in the Air Force you know and I don't really know that's right and so

416
00:34:33,300 --> 00:34:36,940
you come home and like where's the tribe and where's the protection associated

417
00:34:36,940 --> 00:34:40,900
with that and then people suffer individually and instead of coming in

418
00:34:40,900 --> 00:34:45,420
talking to Captain Dell in in uniform they're kind of they're gonna talk to

419
00:34:45,420 --> 00:34:50,780
Captain Morgan because you know that's that's pretty therapeutic in the short

420
00:34:50,780 --> 00:34:55,940
term that's an easy thing to tie yourself to it works really well or else

421
00:34:55,940 --> 00:35:00,100
people wouldn't do it but man it comes with some costs and it's also

422
00:35:00,100 --> 00:35:04,500
acceptable to get drunk you know it's like you don't need to do it all the

423
00:35:04,500 --> 00:35:10,340
time but it is and you can kind of easily hide it alcohol is one of the I

424
00:35:10,340 --> 00:35:15,940
always love the joke to two people get in a fight in a bar they drunk or they

425
00:35:15,940 --> 00:35:20,220
stoned and they're obviously drunk it's like it does something to people and

426
00:35:20,220 --> 00:35:25,860
it's but it's socially acceptable so it's easy to hide you know it also tends

427
00:35:25,860 --> 00:35:31,060
to it makes you know it makes the conversations easier it's a truth serum

428
00:35:31,060 --> 00:35:35,340
of sorts and things like that and the second yeah the second top gun you know

429
00:35:35,340 --> 00:35:39,620
you know with his name Tom Cruise falls in love with the owner of the bar right

430
00:35:39,620 --> 00:35:43,580
and so Jennifer Connelly at that so that it's just and the most famous scenes in

431
00:35:43,580 --> 00:35:47,160
the movie of the first one is that you know righteous brothers song when they're

432
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,620
in the bar right singing to you know Kelly McGillis but I wanted to go back

433
00:35:50,620 --> 00:35:56,060
to the Israel part I think that I don't know if it could be you know if this is

434
00:35:56,060 --> 00:35:59,500
the realm of science or just pure conjecture but the fact that Israel has

435
00:35:59,500 --> 00:36:04,380
been the center of thousands of years of absolute combat and and and warring

436
00:36:04,380 --> 00:36:09,220
tribes taken over right Egyptians Syrians you know Babylonians Romans

437
00:36:09,220 --> 00:36:14,340
Greek I mean Antiochus and all those guys and so I guess I mean if you lived

438
00:36:14,340 --> 00:36:18,420
in like South Central LA and you used to gunshots going off every night they're

439
00:36:18,420 --> 00:36:21,340
not gonna traumatize you right the person who walks into there from you

440
00:36:21,340 --> 00:36:25,500
know outside Kansas and spends a night in South Central is gonna be traumatized

441
00:36:25,500 --> 00:36:29,740
by the amount of gunshots they that they hear and the people that live there

442
00:36:29,740 --> 00:36:35,700
probably are less traumatized by that particular phenomenon so yeah it's

443
00:36:35,700 --> 00:36:41,180
interesting to think about there's actually been some fascinating data

444
00:36:41,180 --> 00:36:48,260
compiled on Jewish people about the genetic loading and effects of

445
00:36:48,260 --> 00:36:54,020
generational trauma yeah you know certainly even prior to the Holocaust

446
00:36:54,020 --> 00:37:00,540
but you know a lot of this research became pretty relevant after that I would

447
00:37:00,540 --> 00:37:04,300
also say the the epidemiological literature for trauma would suggest that

448
00:37:04,300 --> 00:37:11,860
traumas cumulative over time so what that means is that every one of us kind

449
00:37:11,860 --> 00:37:16,540
of has our breaking point with trauma exposure so so you know I mentioned

450
00:37:16,540 --> 00:37:20,500
earlier it's pretty hopeful story one single trauma event is not likely to

451
00:37:20,500 --> 00:37:27,660
produce PTSD but if someone in a serial way is is exposed to repeated trauma

452
00:37:27,660 --> 00:37:33,420
events it just really really builds and we learned this a lot from the military

453
00:37:33,420 --> 00:37:39,380
unfortunately it's kind of like generation or two ago the belief was hey

454
00:37:39,380 --> 00:37:43,100
we deployed that battalion of Marines they came back and they didn't have you

455
00:37:43,100 --> 00:37:46,820
know whatever the label for PTSD was at that time so let's just keep redeploying

456
00:37:46,820 --> 00:37:52,380
them they must be immune to it it's like after a while the weight or the

457
00:37:52,380 --> 00:37:55,820
cumulative effect of trauma builds to the place that it becomes kind of

458
00:37:55,820 --> 00:37:59,660
unbearable and people start to manifest the symptoms of post-traumatic stress

459
00:37:59,660 --> 00:38:05,860
yeah doctor you're you're a counselor for the staff for the professors at

460
00:38:05,860 --> 00:38:11,620
Notre Dame yeah what is that like because it's an interesting juxtaposition of

461
00:38:11,620 --> 00:38:17,100
the professors and Gen Z what which I want to talk about of this emerging

462
00:38:17,100 --> 00:38:23,260
generation that is basically saying hey we need a way to deal with our anxiety

463
00:38:23,260 --> 00:38:29,620
and depression so what is that like you know I I I'm grateful it wasn't my

464
00:38:29,620 --> 00:38:34,540
first gig out of out of grad school you know like it's it's not terribly uncommon

465
00:38:34,540 --> 00:38:40,500
for me to sit down with individuals that receive PhDs in a second or a third

466
00:38:40,500 --> 00:38:45,220
language on another continent you know or someone that might sit down and ask

467
00:38:45,220 --> 00:38:48,740
me about the meta-analytic studies supporting the interventions that I'm

468
00:38:48,740 --> 00:38:56,060
offering one of the things that I've learned from from fighter pilots to you

469
00:38:56,060 --> 00:39:03,100
know faculty is that even the best of people are people at best hmm a lot of

470
00:39:03,100 --> 00:39:09,340
folks will with a real sense of humility you know seek out consultation with a

471
00:39:09,340 --> 00:39:16,860
psychologist and I always just ask people you know if if this goes well I

472
00:39:16,860 --> 00:39:20,420
ask them I ask everybody this the first time I meet them it's kind of like

473
00:39:20,420 --> 00:39:27,260
whatever brings you in here if this if this is profitable to you how would we

474
00:39:27,260 --> 00:39:31,260
be able to measure and know that that was you know that that was occurring

475
00:39:31,260 --> 00:39:36,420
like how would we know if this helps and it's always really instructive to me and

476
00:39:36,420 --> 00:39:41,100
what people actually you know even the brightest of people they'll say I never

477
00:39:41,100 --> 00:39:45,780
really thought about that you know it kind of opens up territory to be able to

478
00:39:45,780 --> 00:39:52,220
kind of say you know what what might we endeavor to do and how realistic is that

479
00:39:52,220 --> 00:40:01,260
I oftentimes think man like we hurt where we care and a lot of people come

480
00:40:01,260 --> 00:40:06,060
to therapy because they want to get rid of anxiety or depression or grief and

481
00:40:06,060 --> 00:40:10,320
it's like outside of a frontal lobotomy or a bottle in front of me I have no

482
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:16,940
idea how to get that you know I mean could you imagine what your life would

483
00:40:16,940 --> 00:40:23,060
be like if you didn't grieve when your kid died or you didn't feel nervous

484
00:40:23,060 --> 00:40:26,760
about someone or something that you really cared about that was being

485
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:32,220
threatened or like have you watched the news for one nanosecond in the last 20

486
00:40:32,220 --> 00:40:37,660
years you don't think there's reasons to be sad or grieved or lament you know

487
00:40:37,660 --> 00:40:42,140
like among religious communities it's like this is this is a historical

488
00:40:42,140 --> 00:40:46,420
artifact that is part of that part of what's necessary and sufficient with the

489
00:40:46,420 --> 00:40:51,540
human condition you know book of Psalms it's like unbelievable like the entire

490
00:40:51,540 --> 00:40:58,740
Psalms of lament you know and so I just think like a lot of people come to

491
00:40:58,740 --> 00:41:03,460
therapy because they want to feel good and I end up trying to work with people

492
00:41:03,460 --> 00:41:07,140
to help them to be good at feeling and I don't think that that's just some dumb

493
00:41:07,140 --> 00:41:12,420
semantic thing I think it's like how can how can we as human beings feel fully

494
00:41:12,420 --> 00:41:17,500
but still pivot freely in the direction of our values to build a meaningful life

495
00:41:17,500 --> 00:41:25,300
and any good exemplar that any one of us has in religion or in the real world has

496
00:41:25,300 --> 00:41:30,980
modeled this for us you know like every every fairy tale story that enamored our

497
00:41:30,980 --> 00:41:35,700
hearts it's like in order to be brave you first have to be afraid and some

498
00:41:35,700 --> 00:41:43,380
dragons need slain and even Jesus wept at Lazarus's tomb sweat blood in the

499
00:41:43,380 --> 00:41:47,180
garden you know it's like flipping tables and things like this is like

500
00:41:47,180 --> 00:41:54,540
whoever someone looks to and truly esteems typically that person has been

501
00:41:54,540 --> 00:42:00,380
able to feel fully but still build a meaningful life well I mean we went back

502
00:42:00,380 --> 00:42:06,020
to some of the disciples and how silly or stupid they could be but I think

503
00:42:06,020 --> 00:42:10,700
that's also part of the beauty of the story right there's Peter you know asking

504
00:42:10,700 --> 00:42:16,580
to build an altar for Moses and Elijah as well as Jesus and he's just laughing

505
00:42:16,580 --> 00:42:21,940
at it you know it's the you know cutting off the servants ear it's the get thee

506
00:42:21,940 --> 00:42:27,260
behind me Satan it's we love Peter because he's the one who even though he

507
00:42:27,260 --> 00:42:32,940
saw Jesus in the mount denied him three times we need that so that's the kind of

508
00:42:32,940 --> 00:42:37,980
reality that that helps us at least and know that he was the rock right and so I

509
00:42:37,980 --> 00:42:42,460
think having those stories that resonate with us we come from an evangelical

510
00:42:42,460 --> 00:42:48,060
background you know I think we need those types of things and I'd actually

511
00:42:48,060 --> 00:42:52,420
like to pivot into what you brought up in one of your earlier reels on habit

512
00:42:52,420 --> 00:42:55,980
formation is not equal to goal acquisition I love this construct

513
00:42:55,980 --> 00:43:00,020
because there's a book called atomic habits and it's about iterative things

514
00:43:00,020 --> 00:43:04,380
and you talked about progressive sanctification but some some of one of

515
00:43:04,380 --> 00:43:09,300
the things that the author does is he says don't say that you're quitting

516
00:43:09,300 --> 00:43:14,460
smoking say that you're a nonsmoker or if you if you're attempting he's already

517
00:43:14,460 --> 00:43:21,420
looking at the goal acquisition right I am this right so I'm not striving I am

518
00:43:21,420 --> 00:43:25,140
and that seems to be a little bit different from our kind of process is

519
00:43:25,140 --> 00:43:28,100
that we're always striving and always slowly building so tell us a little bit

520
00:43:28,100 --> 00:43:33,420
about how that's helpful in terms of because this is stuff where we can

521
00:43:33,420 --> 00:43:35,900
actually think about this on a regular day we don't have to talk about trauma

522
00:43:35,900 --> 00:43:39,740
and deep embedded thing this is a really practical thing to talk about right

523
00:43:39,740 --> 00:43:42,660
because people want to develop better habits right they want to get better and

524
00:43:42,660 --> 00:43:48,860
that but help me flesh that out a little bit yeah yeah well so you know those

525
00:43:48,860 --> 00:43:54,460
those reels came from little snippets from the Wheaton course that I taught in

526
00:43:54,460 --> 00:44:01,580
January and it's always amazing to me how sensorious people could be over like

527
00:44:01,580 --> 00:44:06,380
a 60-second sound bite from a lecture that was like three hours in life you

528
00:44:06,380 --> 00:44:11,380
know and people you know it's like very fascinating how people will take a

529
00:44:11,380 --> 00:44:16,580
little bit of content and kind of try to understand that and then judge it and and

530
00:44:16,580 --> 00:44:21,020
yet you know I appreciate the commentary folks have so so you're right James

531
00:44:21,020 --> 00:44:25,940
clear wrote a great book called atomic habits and he talks a lot about this

532
00:44:25,940 --> 00:44:30,540
many of the best clinical health psychology folks I worked with in the

533
00:44:30,540 --> 00:44:36,740
Air Force talked a lot about this as well this idea that when we set about to

534
00:44:36,740 --> 00:44:41,500
build habits in our life they should be more aligned with cultivating an identity

535
00:44:41,500 --> 00:44:47,300
than they are about a specific outcome and and in the class which of course in

536
00:44:47,300 --> 00:44:54,540
60 seconds you couldn't you couldn't catch but you know my wife and I we

537
00:44:54,540 --> 00:44:58,260
struggled with infertility and an inability to get pregnant for about a

538
00:44:58,260 --> 00:45:03,540
decade and it was my issue I have a really really low sperm count I've had

539
00:45:03,540 --> 00:45:07,620
multiple surgeries on my testicles which I wouldn't recommend to anyone but that's

540
00:45:07,620 --> 00:45:12,220
I've done that and the consequence of that is just an unbelievably low sperm

541
00:45:12,220 --> 00:45:24,340
count and so and so anyway God gifted us two beautiful girls and neither of them

542
00:45:24,340 --> 00:45:29,820
we ever would have expected I mean that truly doctors had told us like the

543
00:45:29,820 --> 00:45:35,380
chances are as close to zero as you could possibly get and so anyway when

544
00:45:35,380 --> 00:45:41,540
when she got pregnant with our second daughter and we were both in our 40s I

545
00:45:41,540 --> 00:45:46,700
just had a great awakening in my spirit I just realized I'm gonna be approaching

546
00:45:46,700 --> 00:45:54,100
60 years old at Amelia Joy's high school graduation and and I am you know easily

547
00:45:54,100 --> 00:45:58,020
30 or 40 pounds overweight I did what every person does got out of the Air

548
00:45:58,020 --> 00:46:03,020
Force I no longer had to maintain a waistline and run a mile and a half in a

549
00:46:03,020 --> 00:46:07,700
certain distance and time and so I gained a bunch of weight didn't you know

550
00:46:07,700 --> 00:46:12,900
take care of myself and I had this unbelievable turning point I lost 70

551
00:46:12,900 --> 00:46:18,860
pounds in the last couple of years and nice and it really traced down to this

552
00:46:18,860 --> 00:46:24,340
idea of self-compassion and and I think this is worthy of bringing up because

553
00:46:24,340 --> 00:46:28,740
we're just three bro Tato chips here just like three three bro Mandarin

554
00:46:28,740 --> 00:46:33,660
chiefs here a couple of bros I presume there's some dudes that listen to this

555
00:46:33,660 --> 00:46:39,580
and you know you're right like men have an issue with some emotions but not all

556
00:46:39,580 --> 00:46:42,860
I mean I've never met a man that's uncomfortable with anger you know it's

557
00:46:42,860 --> 00:46:46,580
like you know it's like oh somebody's gonna fiddle around with your daughter

558
00:46:46,580 --> 00:46:49,980
it's like how do you feel about this like I don't know I'm a guy that really

559
00:46:49,980 --> 00:46:55,100
struggles with this feeling all right I could go to rage pretty darn quick you

560
00:46:55,100 --> 00:46:59,180
know or like watch your favorite sport and it's like I can experience euphoria

561
00:46:59,180 --> 00:47:03,500
and joy pretty quick or despair you know especially if I root for the wrong team

562
00:47:03,500 --> 00:47:09,020
or whatever but self-compassion is a tricky one for men because you know

563
00:47:09,020 --> 00:47:14,260
definitionally I think it conjures up this idea of like self-love or

564
00:47:14,260 --> 00:47:20,140
self-esteem or something and I'm not I'm not promoting narcissism or like you

565
00:47:20,140 --> 00:47:24,580
know look at yourself in the mirror and tell yourself that you're beautiful I

566
00:47:24,580 --> 00:47:30,780
think of self-compassion very similar to like self-discipline or self-respect

567
00:47:30,780 --> 00:47:36,140
and there was this major shift in me where it was like the things I put in my

568
00:47:36,140 --> 00:47:43,580
body behaviorally can can be an evidence of self-control and self-respect so that

569
00:47:43,580 --> 00:47:49,060
I can be a dad that's kind of worthy of this calling I'm not saying the BMI is

570
00:47:49,060 --> 00:47:54,340
attributed to how good of a dad you are but it was just abundantly clear to me

571
00:47:54,340 --> 00:47:58,720
that I was eating a bunch of ultra processed foods I was drinking too much

572
00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:04,300
alcohol I was not moving I was not eating in a way that would suggest that

573
00:48:04,300 --> 00:48:09,860
I cared a whole lot about what my health span would be and so I read dr.

574
00:48:09,860 --> 00:48:17,700
Adia's book outlive which is brilliant he talks about the four pillars

575
00:48:17,700 --> 00:48:25,140
associated with a long health span you know being exercise science nutritional

576
00:48:25,140 --> 00:48:30,620
biochemistry sleep quality and emotional well-being and I can get behind every

577
00:48:30,620 --> 00:48:35,220
one of those you know and so I I also looked and did a deep dive into

578
00:48:35,220 --> 00:48:40,060
nutritional psychiatry so woman and do is a big name in that space this is your

579
00:48:40,060 --> 00:48:45,300
brain on food is a book that she wrote Ramsey is another name of a psychiatrist

580
00:48:45,300 --> 00:48:49,940
that does a lot of nutritional psychiatry vitamins and minerals and

581
00:48:49,940 --> 00:48:54,540
food groups that really promote emotional well-being and in randomized

582
00:48:54,540 --> 00:49:00,380
control trials beat psychotropic meds or go head-to-head with them without you

583
00:49:00,380 --> 00:49:04,420
know the the side effects of weight gain and impotency like the stuff that keeps

584
00:49:04,420 --> 00:49:09,940
you pretty darn depressed so so yeah I started geeking out on that stuff and

585
00:49:09,940 --> 00:49:16,460
here's what I say to men don't pursue self-compassion on the basis of like

586
00:49:16,460 --> 00:49:21,220
feeling or even thoughts because many of us are our own worst critic we've all

587
00:49:21,220 --> 00:49:25,580
got sort of a dictator that lives between our ears I was hearing from mine

588
00:49:25,580 --> 00:49:29,540
even before I connected to this it's like oh my god I looked at I looked at

589
00:49:29,540 --> 00:49:33,460
some of the dudes that these guys just talked to and like who in the world am I

590
00:49:33,460 --> 00:49:38,220
this is gonna be terrible I'm gonna waste their time da da da da da da we all

591
00:49:38,220 --> 00:49:44,100
have that chatter you know also I could not furl my brow and all of a sudden

592
00:49:44,100 --> 00:49:48,380
think positive things about myself that would be weird you know but the next

593
00:49:48,380 --> 00:49:53,060
time I go to the fridge unquestionably I'm either gonna do something that

594
00:49:53,060 --> 00:49:59,940
looks like self-respect or self-control or not the next time I say yes or no to

595
00:49:59,940 --> 00:50:04,220
the thing that I drink that's either gonna look like self-respect or

596
00:50:04,220 --> 00:50:11,140
self-discipline or it's not and and if I can walk that out behaviorally I get to

597
00:50:11,140 --> 00:50:15,460
transform something at an identity level like you know who Adam Dell is Adam

598
00:50:15,460 --> 00:50:21,340
does the kind of guy who exercises unusual self-control in the direction of

599
00:50:21,340 --> 00:50:26,820
what he puts into his body because that's the kind of duty is and if I have

600
00:50:26,820 --> 00:50:31,620
some outcome in mind like oh I'd like to lose 70 pounds I might gain weight lose

601
00:50:31,620 --> 00:50:35,940
weight stay the same plateau da da da da da my motivation doesn't need to rise

602
00:50:35,940 --> 00:50:42,000
and fall on progress towards that one particular goal down the line is every

603
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:46,860
single day whether I've relapsed or I'm on the path whether it's a good day or a

604
00:50:46,860 --> 00:50:52,140
bad day whether the scale says plus one or minus ten I get to pursue that

605
00:50:52,140 --> 00:50:58,140
identity transformation that sort of evolution of myself that's a heck of a

606
00:50:58,140 --> 00:51:02,140
thing I actually first learned that in the Air Force you know they taught you

607
00:51:02,140 --> 00:51:06,940
how to put your uniform on and make your bed and how your boots should be as the

608
00:51:06,940 --> 00:51:10,980
first things that you did in the morning and there's something profound about that

609
00:51:10,980 --> 00:51:14,900
it's like you belong to a different community now you do things differently

610
00:51:14,900 --> 00:51:19,420
now and we're gonna help you rise up to this identity even though many of you

611
00:51:19,420 --> 00:51:22,940
people have never made your bed you're not the kind of person that does that

612
00:51:22,940 --> 00:51:27,380
and you came here with rules in your head about I don't wake up at 0430 and

613
00:51:27,380 --> 00:51:32,300
exercise I don't make my bed every day I don't pay attention to detail it's like

614
00:51:32,300 --> 00:51:37,220
small disciplined steps in that direction is going to evolve your identity

615
00:51:37,220 --> 00:51:42,500
love it are you seeing a trend one of the things I was going to ask it's a

616
00:51:42,500 --> 00:51:46,420
kind of a two-part question when you were trying to have kids for 10 years

617
00:51:46,420 --> 00:51:52,700
did you look at any kind of unorthodox ways to try to help that situation out

618
00:51:52,700 --> 00:51:57,660
something that might go beyond the pale of a traditional sign that somebody gets

619
00:51:57,660 --> 00:52:03,220
cancer diagnosis and there's always the classic chemo immunology you know you

620
00:52:03,220 --> 00:52:07,740
know radio rate and this you know hacking stuff off right so there's these

621
00:52:07,740 --> 00:52:11,940
these foundational things and the reason I'm asking you that is I'm seeing a

622
00:52:11,940 --> 00:52:16,060
trend of a lot of people who are biohacking and doing a lot of things

623
00:52:16,060 --> 00:52:20,540
especially young men I follow a lot on an X and you've got started with Jordan

624
00:52:20,540 --> 00:52:24,540
Peterson but then you start to see these diets and these carnivore things and

625
00:52:24,540 --> 00:52:31,220
sunlight and setting your balls right and and a variety of things that tend to

626
00:52:31,220 --> 00:52:35,220
kind of say hey we've tried all this medicine we had a guy named dr. Jack

627
00:52:35,220 --> 00:52:39,020
Cruz on who basically says blue light has been the cause of our depression

628
00:52:39,020 --> 00:52:44,820
right that is draining the melatonin blue light is the ruination of this

629
00:52:44,820 --> 00:52:49,980
civilization and so what I'm trying to say is are you seeing this collective

630
00:52:49,980 --> 00:52:56,740
kind of movement in in in in this direction and how much of it could be

631
00:52:56,740 --> 00:53:01,220
actually truly applicable to actually making you live a better life better

632
00:53:01,220 --> 00:53:04,620
community and even avoid the things that would normally cause depression or other

633
00:53:04,620 --> 00:53:10,380
kinds of you know anxiety so it's a big long-winded question I'm sorry you can

634
00:53:10,380 --> 00:53:16,660
impact that yeah you're sort of asking like are there is there benefit in kind

635
00:53:16,660 --> 00:53:20,300
of leaning hard into the direction of these alternative integrative kind of

636
00:53:20,300 --> 00:53:27,420
biohacking approaches to well-being yeah you know and you also asked it in terms

637
00:53:27,420 --> 00:53:31,300
of like our own infertility journey and yeah if I could share something really

638
00:53:31,300 --> 00:53:35,940
personal with you my wife from the time that she was old enough to tote around

639
00:53:35,940 --> 00:53:41,140
a doll baby had always longed to be a mom and when we realized that it was a

640
00:53:41,140 --> 00:53:48,740
mean me issue there was like major grief that both of us went through and there

641
00:53:48,740 --> 00:53:54,460
were kind of dark times that I basically said like babe take the take every asset

642
00:53:54,460 --> 00:53:58,740
that we have and leave me and go do this because I'm not gonna be able to give

643
00:53:58,740 --> 00:54:05,500
this to you and it just felt it felt like something I shouldn't knowingly

644
00:54:05,500 --> 00:54:12,060
take from her you know she had been so faithful and kind to me and you know I

645
00:54:12,060 --> 00:54:18,180
mentioned acceptance and commitment therapy earlier and you know I hope it

646
00:54:18,180 --> 00:54:21,380
doesn't sound like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth because I really

647
00:54:21,380 --> 00:54:27,260
do I really do believe that in our wisdom traditions in terms of

648
00:54:27,260 --> 00:54:37,100
sanctification in the science of shaping behavior and evolving as human beings I

649
00:54:37,100 --> 00:54:41,980
think that we we can all be in a process with that you know we can all be on a

650
00:54:41,980 --> 00:54:47,260
journey with that to build a meaningful life and to show up towards the ceiling

651
00:54:47,260 --> 00:54:55,520
of our potential I also think that more Eastern philosophical radical

652
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:59,860
acceptance orientation type philosophies make a great deal of sense in a world

653
00:54:59,860 --> 00:55:04,500
as broken as ours where everybody's going out horizontal and I don't mean

654
00:55:04,500 --> 00:55:09,220
acceptance like tolerance and resignation I mean acceptance like I can

655
00:55:09,220 --> 00:55:14,180
be with my life right now exactly as it is and still find contentment content

656
00:55:14,180 --> 00:55:23,060
yeah purpose so for example my favorite Old Testament story I've preached a lot

657
00:55:23,060 --> 00:55:29,060
at multiple churches I went to seminary before I went off to become a

658
00:55:29,060 --> 00:55:33,260
psychologist and one of my favorite Old Testament stories in the world is the

659
00:55:33,260 --> 00:55:43,260
story of Mephibosheth. Bosh in the middle of the world. Bosheth's name is the word shame in Hebrew and this is a story of trauma it's a story of a

660
00:55:43,260 --> 00:55:47,580
five-year-old kid that had his legs broken broken yeah and then he lived the

661
00:55:47,580 --> 00:55:51,060
rest of his life broken and the first thing that you learn about him and the

662
00:55:51,060 --> 00:55:54,620
last thing that you learn about Mephibosheth is that he's lame in both of

663
00:55:54,620 --> 00:55:59,420
his feet and it's so amazing that David's men find him in Lodobar which

664
00:55:59,420 --> 00:56:04,580
literally means no pasture no hope no man's land and bring him up it's just a

665
00:56:04,580 --> 00:56:09,420
beautiful story I've got my I figured that sermon somewhere online but anyway

666
00:56:09,420 --> 00:56:14,380
when I gave that sermon at in Enid Oklahoma really close to the pilot

667
00:56:14,380 --> 00:56:17,860
training base where I was an officer in the Air Force I shared with a

668
00:56:17,860 --> 00:56:23,060
congregation there that one of the areas of brokenness in our life like the the

669
00:56:23,060 --> 00:56:29,700
things that despite being affiliated as one of God's children that I still

670
00:56:29,700 --> 00:56:35,340
carried this lameness it was this infertility issue and at the time we had

671
00:56:35,340 --> 00:56:39,060
we had foster kids living with us we had done that for years and years and years

672
00:56:39,060 --> 00:56:43,220
we had grieved through it we recommitted to one another we sort of

673
00:56:43,220 --> 00:56:49,380
embraced the reality that even if this doesn't change God is good we can be

674
00:56:49,380 --> 00:56:52,900
committed to one another it was not an accident that we partnered together and

675
00:56:52,900 --> 00:56:56,340
we get to still build something meaningful and I looked out into the

676
00:56:56,340 --> 00:57:00,540
audience and I'm sharing this and I'm emotional my wife's got tears rolling

677
00:57:00,540 --> 00:57:07,180
down her face and she was pregnant there and we had no idea oh my gosh she was

678
00:57:07,180 --> 00:57:14,100
pregnant with Adeline yeah our first child and yeah it's just like such an

679
00:57:14,100 --> 00:57:17,620
amazing thing you know that's not everybody's story and I'm not sharing

680
00:57:17,620 --> 00:57:21,700
that to say that and there were a lot of people that came up to me afterwards

681
00:57:21,700 --> 00:57:30,460
and they're like have you tried ashwagandha and have you you know you

682
00:57:30,460 --> 00:57:34,340
know fan your balls or something you know it's like you know for us it was

683
00:57:34,340 --> 00:57:40,020
kind of like that is one of the most things I've ever been to to radical

684
00:57:40,020 --> 00:57:44,420
acceptance and contentment like I wish this was different but even though it's

685
00:57:44,420 --> 00:57:51,420
not I can be with this and still find joy and still find meaning and that

686
00:57:51,420 --> 00:57:56,140
honestly that that's kind of what post-traumatic growth is like people

687
00:57:56,140 --> 00:58:00,700
don't get post-traumatic growth as the opposite of post-traumatic stress you

688
00:58:00,700 --> 00:58:05,100
can only get post-traumatic growth if you have experienced horrific harm from

689
00:58:05,100 --> 00:58:11,540
trauma and in healing from the trauma you might develop a deeper relationship

690
00:58:11,540 --> 00:58:17,580
with God a deeper empathy with other people a newfound set of possibilities

691
00:58:17,580 --> 00:58:23,300
and new possibilities to go in the direction of these are various domains

692
00:58:23,300 --> 00:58:27,460
of post-traumatic growth that come after the suffering has occurred but if we

693
00:58:27,460 --> 00:58:34,460
don't allow ourselves to feel fully like to hug the cactus or embrace the suck

694
00:58:34,460 --> 00:58:38,580
you know or all these terms that I heard from the military if we don't allow

695
00:58:38,580 --> 00:58:43,340
ourselves to go through the dark night of the soul then we never get to the

696
00:58:43,340 --> 00:58:48,740
break of dawn which is just a radiant light that's worth showing up to and so

697
00:58:48,740 --> 00:58:53,460
this is why I think you know you mentioned spirituality earlier and I

698
00:58:53,460 --> 00:59:01,540
think this is what is so distinctive in my mind about Jesus as a central figure

699
00:59:01,540 --> 00:59:08,220
in a religious in a religious frame that he has something to say about the problem

700
00:59:08,220 --> 00:59:11,940
of evil not by transcending it or philosophizing it but going through it

701
00:59:11,940 --> 00:59:19,260
and I think it was Edward Shalito one of my favorite poems praying to this

702
00:59:19,260 --> 00:59:25,300
suffering Christ this Christ that was betrayed and beaten almost to death and

703
00:59:25,300 --> 00:59:29,940
crucified in front of his mom you know you think about like painting the most

704
00:59:29,940 --> 00:59:35,460
graphic and horrific unjust reprehensible scene that any human could

705
00:59:35,460 --> 00:59:41,180
go through and he didn't deserve it and Edward Shalito praying to that Christ

706
00:59:41,180 --> 00:59:47,940
said the other gods were strong but thou wast weak they rode but thou did

707
00:59:47,940 --> 00:59:54,100
stumble to a throne but to our wounds only your wounds can speak for no other

708
00:59:54,100 --> 01:00:00,900
God has wounds but thou alone Wow and I just think like that's something I could

709
01:00:00,900 --> 01:00:06,020
you know that's something I could gravitate to you know that like by his

710
01:00:06,020 --> 01:00:15,980
wounds were healed yep in our in our wounds we find you know we find him or

711
01:00:15,980 --> 01:00:22,980
something that he experienced Dr. Dell we have time for about two more questions

712
01:00:22,980 --> 01:00:31,500
and yeah and I want to ask you what drew you to this type of work yeah I was a

713
01:00:31,500 --> 01:00:38,740
sexually abused little boy growing up in Pennsylvania and I carried that with me

714
01:00:38,740 --> 01:00:46,100
for a long darn time and I ended up disclosing the full details of that in

715
01:00:46,100 --> 01:00:50,700
college in a counseling center with a lady named Carol and I don't remember a

716
01:00:50,700 --> 01:00:54,900
darn thing that Carol said to me in that session but I'll never forget the tear

717
01:00:54,900 --> 01:00:58,460
that ran down her cheek when I looked up at her and found the courage to look her

718
01:00:58,460 --> 01:01:05,900
in the eyes after I talked about horrific graphic sexual assaults and and

719
01:01:05,900 --> 01:01:10,660
you know I I went through kind of a healing journey with her in in that

720
01:01:10,660 --> 01:01:16,740
process and also found faith in college and it was the coalescence of those two

721
01:01:16,740 --> 01:01:22,580
things that initially moved me in the direction of ministry however a lot of

722
01:01:22,580 --> 01:01:28,620
people were showing up to the church with addictions and domestic violence and

723
01:01:28,620 --> 01:01:33,420
you know schizophrenia spectrum disorders and it's like whoo if I've got

724
01:01:33,420 --> 01:01:36,660
a chance to learn more about this I'd like to and I'm really drawn to that

725
01:01:36,660 --> 01:01:42,180
work and so yeah it set me on a path I was just so lucky I was an alternate to

726
01:01:42,180 --> 01:01:45,700
get into my doc program which meant I wasn't a first selection but one of

727
01:01:45,700 --> 01:01:50,260
their shiny stars dropped out so I got in by the like the back door I was an

728
01:01:50,260 --> 01:01:53,860
alternate into the Air Force and so their shiny star dropped out and I got

729
01:01:53,860 --> 01:01:58,260
in by the back door and I feel like in some ways I'm a Mephibosheth of God I

730
01:01:58,260 --> 01:02:02,940
don't deserve a seat at the table but I'm there and happy to happy to continue

731
01:02:02,940 --> 01:02:07,900
to serve in that way so yeah it's cultivated in pain in my own story

732
01:02:07,900 --> 01:02:14,740
well even the pregnancy is just another example of just an amazing impossibility

733
01:02:14,740 --> 01:02:20,660
if you would and and yet here we are Wow well I'm on a light note then what are

734
01:02:20,660 --> 01:02:24,060
the plans for Mother's Day weekend how are we gonna celebrate your two

735
01:02:24,060 --> 01:02:29,540
beautiful daughters and your wife what's going on yeah so we've got well we we do

736
01:02:29,540 --> 01:02:35,700
a lot of art at our house and so there is carefully crafted series of cards

737
01:02:35,700 --> 01:02:38,980
that are hidden under my four-year-old's bed right now that we'll share with

738
01:02:38,980 --> 01:02:44,460
Jeanine and then we're taking her to the zoo the South Bend Zoo which is a

739
01:02:44,460 --> 01:02:47,940
favorite place of hers and then we're gonna take her out to eat wherever she

740
01:02:47,940 --> 01:02:53,100
wants to go so she doesn't have to make us knuckleheads another meal hopefully

741
01:02:53,100 --> 01:02:57,060
you know nothing would be really sufficient but hopefully it'll be

742
01:02:57,060 --> 01:03:02,900
meaningful for her so Wow what a joy it's been an absolute pleasure to chat

743
01:03:02,900 --> 01:03:06,780
with you I am gonna I'm looking forward to more conversations it sounds like

744
01:03:06,780 --> 01:03:11,860
we've got a lot we can unpack and break things down so thank you so much for

745
01:03:11,860 --> 01:03:15,780
joining us this has just been absolutely mind-blowing and uplifting and

746
01:03:15,780 --> 01:03:20,100
educational hey thanks guys I was just such an honor that you reached out I

747
01:03:20,100 --> 01:03:25,560
really appreciate it dr. Dell again this has been fantastic because I appreciate

748
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:30,100
your wisdom there's something in speaking with someone who really dives

749
01:03:30,100 --> 01:03:34,260
deep into this subject and it's my personal belief that people are waking

750
01:03:34,260 --> 01:03:39,220
up to the need to heal their trauma and you've added a tremendous amount to that

751
01:03:39,220 --> 01:03:43,980
conversation today thank you for sharing your wisdom so to all of our listeners

752
01:03:43,980 --> 01:03:48,700
thank you for staying with us and please comment we've been getting a huge

753
01:03:48,700 --> 01:03:53,400
increase in listeners so thank you to those groups please comment let us know

754
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:56,420
and recommend who you'd like to see us on if you want to introduce us to

755
01:03:56,420 --> 01:04:01,660
somebody so to everyone out there have a great Mother's Day weekend much love

756
01:04:01,660 --> 01:04:26,260
everybody