1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,520 Welcome to Living in the Matrix. I'm Jonathan and I'm left of center. 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:08,720 And I'm Rich and I tend to lean a little bit more to the right. But the bottom line is, 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:12,560 is together we try to look for the balance of what it means to be human in today's world. 4 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:19,280 Let's get started. Welcome to Living in the Matrix, everyone. I'm Jonathan. This is my 5 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:23,360 co-host Rich. Say hello, Rich. Afternoon, everybody. Great to be back. 6 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:31,920 It's awesome. So we have an absolute wonderful treat today. So we have Brian McLaren and Brian 7 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:38,160 is, I don't want to say he doesn't need introduction, but Brian really has been a voice 8 00:00:38,160 --> 00:00:46,160 of a growing sense of theological dialogue around freedom and permission and growth. 9 00:00:46,160 --> 00:00:51,600 And I've loved following his journey throughout the entire process. I've read all of his books 10 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:58,000 and Brian has a new book out called Life After Doom. And I want to dive in. Welcome, Brian. 11 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,840 It's wonderful to have you. Great to be with you. Thanks, Jonathan. Good to meet you. Good 12 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:06,640 to be with you, Richard. I guess Rich, right? Yeah. Rich is perfect. 100%. 13 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:14,720 So Brian, let's start with the book because I know this is a pivotal period in history. Like 14 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:20,960 there's so much in the air, which I know you can appreciate. I asked you before and I'm going to 15 00:01:20,960 --> 00:01:30,240 ask it now. What is the heart of this book? Well, let me say answer by way of a story. 16 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:40,400 A lot of my friends have really been sucked into a deep, deep despair. And I have felt it too. 17 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:45,760 And I have felt it too. It's not that it hasn't touched me. I think of 18 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:55,600 a dear friend who is a leading activist. And a couple of years ago, I called him, 19 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:01,440 said, how are you doing? He said, well, he said, winning too slowly is the same thing as losing. 20 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:09,840 And so many conversations like that. I was walking with a friend in a protest, 21 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:14,960 a couple of years ago. And she said to me, I'm doing this, but I've lost hope. I don't think 22 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:20,800 we're going to do any good. And I said, well, what keeps you coming if you've lost hope? And 23 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:25,600 she said, well, it's love. It's the only thing left that I've got is love. And there are certain 24 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:32,320 things I do out of love. And I realized that more and more of us, by any measures that we have, 25 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:39,280 when we face the problems that we're dealing with, it looks like we're not playing to win anymore. 26 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:45,760 It means we're playing to not lose catastrophically. And that's just a whole new ballgame for a lot of 27 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:50,720 us. And so I was struggling with that. Other people were struggling with that. And that's, 28 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,160 I suppose I'm trying to help others and help myself. 29 00:02:55,600 --> 00:03:00,640 Well, I think that's been a large part of your journey. Like starting with New Kind of Christian 30 00:03:00,640 --> 00:03:06,640 is just been this arc of what it means to be human, experiencing spirituality. I think that's the 31 00:03:06,640 --> 00:03:12,640 thing that I've always loved about your work is you gave voice to the inside of that journey. 32 00:03:12,640 --> 00:03:16,880 So that's always been incredibly valuable to me. So thank you. 33 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:18,560 Well, thank you for saying that. 34 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:25,200 So what is the grand arc of this book? Like, what is the message you want to really get 35 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:30,320 out to people? Because there is a deep sense of urgency I felt in this book. 36 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:36,320 Yes. Yeah. Well, there definitely is. I mean, I felt it today. I just got an email 37 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:41,840 from a friend who is kind of in the upper echelons of dealing with climate change around the world. 38 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:46,480 And she sent me a copy of something that will be released in the next few days 39 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:54,560 that estimates the cost to the global economy. Now, look, I care about coral reefs and I care 40 00:03:54,560 --> 00:04:01,680 about trees and I care about living creatures. And a lot of people don't, but most of them 41 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:11,600 care about money. And the cost of not dealing with our ecological crisis now, go forward to 2050, 42 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:20,320 is like a 20% tax added onto everything that everybody makes, increasing up to 20% by 2050. 43 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:28,080 And it may go higher after that. So you just realize that we're getting in trouble, 44 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:33,520 we're in trouble, and people tend to do one of two things in response to the trouble. They say, 45 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:40,400 it's not so bad, or it'll be easy to fix. Or they say, it's too late, and we might as well give up. 46 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:47,200 And either of those responses, either an optimistic, non-urgent response, or a 47 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:55,920 despairing despondent response, leads people to apathy. Either there's nothing we can do, 48 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,840 or there's nothing we need to do. The Calvinist versus the Universalist, right? 49 00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:04,960 I guess you could put it that way. That's right. Well, I think that's what you did really well in 50 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:09,760 your book, is you broke down four categories. Would you give the audience a summary of those? 51 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,960 Because I thought that was really helpful. Well, I hope that'll be one of the main 52 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:17,360 contributions of the book, Jonathan, because I've been immersed in this literature for years. 53 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:24,960 And what I try to do is put four signposts or four milestones out on the horizon and say, 54 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,960 we're going to go toward one of these. And the first one I call collapse avoidance. 55 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,840 When I say collapse, we're talking about civilizational collapse. 56 00:05:33,840 --> 00:05:38,960 Ice age level? Sixth extinction. 57 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:40,480 Sixth extinction. Yeah. 58 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:45,600 It could be that. But when we talk about civilizational collapse, we actually are talking 59 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:50,240 about what's happened to every single civilization that ever existed up till this one. We know the 60 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:57,360 Roman Empire collapsed. We know the Mayan Empire collapsed and so on. Collapse doesn't necessarily 61 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:02,160 mean the end of the world. It does mean the end of the world as we know it. So scenario one 62 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:08,560 is that we avoid collapse. Later in the book, I sort of assume everybody will think that's the 63 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:14,160 most desirable scenario. I hope people imagine a couple of unintended negative consequences 64 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:20,400 of a short term avoidance of collapse. Second is collapse rebirth. That's where a collapse happens. 65 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:27,280 We're humbled. We learn our lessons. And on the other side, we try to rebuild something 66 00:06:27,280 --> 00:06:33,520 that will be much, much better. Third is collapse survival. That's where the collapse is. 67 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:40,080 We do so little to address the conditions that lead to collapse that when the collapse happens, 68 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:46,880 we survive, some number of us survive. It might be 2% or 10% or 50% of the current population, 69 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:54,080 but it's not a pretty picture. We survive, but we're not able to get anything close to what we 70 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:59,040 currently have back on the other side. And people who haven't thought about this don't realize how 71 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:05,680 easily that could happen. And then the final is collapse extinction. And there are scenarios 72 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:14,800 where, in fact, I should say this scenario is somewhat less likely than it was 20 years ago. 73 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:22,160 But we could dial up this one as a high possibility. It's not just that the human 74 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:28,400 species go extinct. We could change the planetary conditions so that a high percentage of what we 75 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:33,840 might call vertebrate life, land-based life, would be able to survive. 76 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:41,680 Life, land-based life would go extinct. So that's the four scenarios. Collapse avoidance, 77 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,200 collapse rebirth, collapse survival, collapse extinction. 78 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:52,400 Where do you land? I explained in the book that I don't really land. 79 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,320 And I should say I respect people. I think that's fair. That's a fair approach. 80 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:06,480 I respect people who they're convinced that one of these four is most likely. I don't think we know 81 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:16,320 what will happen. And so not knowing is one of the elements of our current situation that I'm 82 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:22,720 trying to live with. And the way I like to say it, Jonathan, is that I don't know what the outcome 83 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:29,040 will be, but I have decided how I want to show up. And that's what I hope other people, whatever 84 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:38,320 outcome, I hope they decide intentionally how they want to show up. As a pastor, I appreciated 85 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:45,520 your pastoral... It was funny because I've read all your books and this felt very pastoral to me. 86 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:55,520 More so, it was like a pleading. And you have this grand arc, which we'll get into later, 87 00:08:55,920 --> 00:09:03,520 of just the progression of Christianity. Where do you see the big picture things kind of falling 88 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:11,360 right now? Because it almost felt like this was a sermon message that you wanted to preach to 89 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:20,720 people again. Yeah. This is probably my least religious book. It really is. It was very personal. 90 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:27,360 Well, thank you. I mean, it's personal material. I'm glad it felt that way as you read it, Jonathan. 91 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:32,320 It's my least religious book, but as I explained at the beginning of the book, 92 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:38,640 I'm a Christian. I was a pastor for 24 years. That's how I show up. That's who I am. So 93 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:47,440 that's who I am. So I hope that would show up. But it has been very tender. Over these last several 94 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:51,600 years, I get out to speak and more probably in the last 10 years than ever before in my life. 95 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:59,600 I might be speaking with a Buddhist teacher or a Sikh teacher or an atheist. And the number of 96 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:11,920 times we get to a place of deep tenderness where I'm being a pastor again. I'm glad it felt that way 97 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:18,640 because that's very much how I feel. Yeah. Jonathan, Brian, one of the things that 98 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:25,200 struck me, and by the way, I will let you know that I've stayed together with a group of friends 99 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:31,120 from up in the Sacramento area for 15 years. We were in a discipleship class. We read Millard 100 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:37,200 Erickson. We read Jesus and the Margins and More Ready Than You Realize. So one of the things that 101 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:42,000 came out of More Ready Than You Realize was this idea that there's a new way to evangelize. It's 102 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:51,360 not about ultimatums and faith and conquest and the ideas of crusades. It's more about relationships 103 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:58,080 and it's more about opportunity, conversation and dance. And it was a neat and sometimes often 104 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:03,920 controversial way of looking at things based on the old paradigms. It feels to me, help me if I'm 105 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:09,200 wrong, that we almost needed to do an Aikido maneuver on what that process was in terms of 106 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:15,760 this new paradigm. You can't be so winsome, or maybe you have to be winsome, but tell me what 107 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:21,360 you think about that approach was in terms of evangelism, but it seems so dire now that in 108 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:26,560 terms of the environment and the climate, it seems like there needs to be a different methodology in 109 00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:29,120 order to kind of, does that make sense? You understand what I'm coming from? 110 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:35,360 It really does, Rich, and it's a really intelligent question. There's very disturbing research, 111 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:40,240 Rich, that the more we teach people about climate change, the less helpful it is. 112 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:45,840 There's a certain kind of turn-off factor where people, where we teach them a lot and then they 113 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:55,200 become negative. The term I use for this is bias. They have a bias, they put up barriers against 114 00:11:55,200 --> 00:12:04,160 hearing anymore. So in that sense, I think, well, first of all, I think some people are incapable 115 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:10,640 of facing reality. When I say incapable, I don't mean at the core of who they are, but they've 116 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:17,280 arranged their lives so that the likelihood of them ever facing our current reality is super, 117 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:24,240 super slim. For example, if you're part of a community that won't allow you to think about 118 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:31,040 certain things, and that community means a whole lot to you, it is super hard for you to ever 119 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:37,200 consider any of the things that I'm talking about in a book like this. And by the way, that doesn't 120 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:43,280 just go for religious fundamentalists. There are economic fundamentalists who, anything that 121 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:50,000 challenges the assumptions of capitalism, it just creates these sets of alarm bells inside of them, 122 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:55,680 and they literally have to leave the room or shut the book or turn off the video or whatever it is. 123 00:12:55,680 --> 00:13:01,280 But I think for a whole lot of people, we're at a place where very much like what I was saying, 124 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:06,400 and I'm more ready than you realize, people have to know we love them and aren't just trying to 125 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:12,400 recruit them for our project. People need to know that we care about them, whether or not they ever 126 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:19,120 agree with us. That's part of the mess that's what got us into the mess we're in, where we just thought 127 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:25,600 our choice was either to dominate over people or to be able to do something about it. And so 128 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:32,800 we have to either take people or reject them. The truth is, whether people agree or not, 129 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:38,960 we're stuck together on this planet. We have to learn, we have to find ways to live together. So 130 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:46,000 I think there's a lot about that book that would very much apply in this case. But I think part of 131 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:53,520 what you're picking up on, Rich, and I mentioned this later in the book, but there are horrible 132 00:13:53,520 --> 00:14:00,480 consequences for letting the freight train keep rolling down the tracks at full speed. 133 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:09,280 And some people are ready to talk about those consequences for some people that will motivate 134 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:14,240 them to take corrective action. And that might sound a little different. 135 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:19,680 I think what's brilliant about that is the idea of Aikido is that you're taking energy that somebody 136 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:26,160 is spending it. Right? And what's crazy about that is that the people who really believe that their 137 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:31,680 neighbors were going to hell are looking at that saying, I'm praying for these people, they're 138 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:37,120 going to die. If I don't do this message, if I don't talk about this, the rapture is going to come, 139 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:41,920 we're all going to be swept away. They're going to be left behind and suffering. And I think the 140 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:46,880 world we live in is in such dichotomies that if we really look at it as universality, like, no, 141 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:51,600 you know what, if we do this together, if we work through this together, we are going to come to the 142 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:58,080 same place. Right? And if it's a combination of seeing anecdotal things, if it's story, if it's, 143 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:05,360 I mean, obviously, I can't believe that if you look at, like you said, the acidification, I don't 144 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:10,000 know what you call when the coral reefs are starting to die, the CO2 levels in the oceans and some 145 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:15,920 things. And unfortunately, what you end up seeing are like anomalies with a lot of snow recently in 146 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:20,480 the last two years. And those are little bumps in the road. And along the faith journey, it's not 147 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:25,120 like somebody becomes a believer and they have a couple of things where they fall back. I just see 148 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:32,160 so many parallels in terms of, if we have in our hearts, the desire for our generations beyond us 149 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:38,000 to live and prosper and to relish what we're trying to leave behind them, this doesn't just apply to 150 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:44,640 the legacy of the world. It's our spiritual legacy. It's enduring, saving our lives on the planet, 151 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:49,840 so not killing each other. There's so many angles I'd like to explore with you. And I think the 152 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:56,240 biggest spirit I'm feeling of this globe is going through is this, it's a false dichotomy. 153 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,960 And you've always been so good about talking about this third way, right? It's not about this or this. 154 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:06,720 What about, you know, big tent? What about this third way? And it just, it has to be inculcated 155 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:12,400 in a way that I don't know how it becomes, it almost has to be divine. There has to be a divine 156 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:17,120 that comes together and brings us and gives us a quickening, if you would. I think you might be 157 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:21,840 seeing that too. I'm seeing a lot of people feeling like there's a tension in their soul and 158 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:27,200 their heart right now, right? And they can't put a finger on it, but the more we have these dialogues 159 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,880 and we have more and more conversations, it's got to make a difference, right? 160 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:40,720 I mean, it sounds like the three of us are examples of that. We're all in a different place 161 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:47,600 than we were 20 years ago. So I think we're examples of that right here. Yeah, I, 162 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:57,520 something that I think helps me keep going, Rich, is when I lower my expectations of people getting 163 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:02,880 it. In other words, I try to assume most people aren't going to get it, but I'm going to keep 164 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:09,200 going anyway. And then if they get it, so much the better. You know, I actually think you could 165 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:14,400 make a case that Jesus was saying something like that in his parable of the soils, where he says, 166 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:20,080 look, some people are, it's going to bounce right off them, like a seed off hard ground. And some 167 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:25,120 people, they're going to say, oh yeah, yeah, but it won't last. And it's like he eliminates three 168 00:17:25,120 --> 00:17:31,440 quarters of his audience, but basically says, I'm still willing to go for this for the one quarter 169 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:37,120 of the audience that will get it. Brian, I want to call out, because it's to Rich's point, 170 00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:42,320 something in your book, you said, maybe in the end, our simplistic binaries, like good and bad, 171 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:48,000 right and wrong, wonderful and terrible have been calibrated by the habits, values and structures 172 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:56,080 of our current civilization. And I think what's happening is there's so much disequilibrium 173 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:04,720 and chaos because we know things are crumbling. That's the general vibe people are experiencing 174 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:14,880 and they're freaking out going, ah, how do we cross those divides? Yeah, I, there was a really 175 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:21,760 interesting scholar after World War II, a Canadian social psychologist who started doing research on 176 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:28,960 what he called the authoritarian personality. And he found in his research, and this research was 177 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:36,880 duplicated in a lot of other places, that about 30% of people in each culture had what he called 178 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:43,840 an authoritarian personality. And the idea was under a certain amount of stress, they are, 179 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:53,680 the way I sort of interpret it is they are so agitated by stress that when it gets to a certain 180 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:59,440 level, they look for a strong man to who they can just transfer all of their confidence to. 181 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:08,960 He will solve it. Usually it's a man, it could be a woman. And when I see folks like that, 182 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:14,800 I don't get upset with them. I don't think they can help it. Some percentage of people, 183 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:20,480 the stress gets high enough, that's the only thing their bodies and brains know how to do. 184 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:26,880 I think there's others of us who, and what's going to happen with them is certainly outside 185 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:32,880 of my control, maybe outside of any influence that I have, because I'm not creating the stress, 186 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:37,120 although I could increase the stress on those people that would actually drive them to 187 00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:43,520 authoritarians even more, you know, that often is an unintended consequence of our work. But 188 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:55,280 if I say of the people who are open, how can I help them face reality enough that they take action, 189 00:19:55,280 --> 00:20:03,360 but not in a way that makes them be paralyzed or despondent? You know, maybe they will be 190 00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:08,800 paralyzed and despondent for a week or two, because this is a big thing for our brains to cope with. 191 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:14,720 We were trained our civilization's common sense was progress. Every day in every way, 192 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:20,000 things will get better and better. That's so deeply built into all of us. I've seen more 193 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:25,040 clearly how it's built into me, even though I would have rejected that if you told me, 194 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:32,960 I somehow ingested it anyway. So we're asking a lot of people and reality is asking a lot of 195 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:40,880 people to consider that the current train of our civilization could actually go off the track or 196 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:50,240 the bridge could blow up and they need to wake up. Brian, one of the things that you talked about in 197 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:58,080 the book is that you've, you have really immersed yourself in the community and around the data. 198 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:02,640 So I don't want to walk away by giving some tangible elements for people to grasp onto 199 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:08,400 of reality. So, cause part of that you're talking about is it's people coming to face reality. 200 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:15,600 Cause most people don't want to look at it. Cause the problem with this, this problem is you feel 201 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:24,960 powerless. Yes. So how do you get past the powerlessness and you start churning the data. 202 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:32,400 What does the data tell us? Well, the data tells us we're in trouble on several levels. One of the, 203 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:37,600 the term I use in the book is I talk about our current civilization in the, in the literature 204 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:42,880 at large, they use terms like Palti, poly crisis or multi crisis. And here's what they mean. 205 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:49,760 We've woken up to the fact that we have a problem with petroleum and coal, these fossil fuels, 206 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:55,120 that when we burn them, they produce huge amounts of profit. They use produce huge amounts of energy. 207 00:21:55,120 --> 00:22:01,120 They're like cocaine for civilization. I mean, they're just phenomenal. And they give us great 208 00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:07,040 power. I mean, literally because of petroleum and related products, we can fly, you know, 209 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:13,120 it's amazing the power they give us. But we found out that that carbon, when it gets into the 210 00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:19,920 atmosphere, works like a greenhouse and keeps heat in. And people saw with, you know, we just had an 211 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:25,360 eclipse and people who were in the path of totality of the eclipse felt that just in the four minutes 212 00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:31,040 when the sun was obscured by the moon, they felt the temperature drop, drop like five to 10 degrees 213 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:39,360 Fahrenheit. And you see the satellite images of the whole earth, like massive area was blacked out. 214 00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:44,080 Like a massive area was blacked out. It's so cool. I mean, it's so amazing. 215 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:50,400 But people could feel just turn off the sun for four minutes and you have a 10 degree top, 216 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:56,800 that tells you how much heat is coming in at every second. So we're trapping heat. Now, 217 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:03,360 in my opinion, pardon this pun, but global warming is just the tip of the iceberg of the 218 00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:09,040 melting iceberg, because underneath it is the deeper problem of what we could call ecological 219 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:14,400 overshoot. In general, we're taking too many resources out of the earth for the earth to 220 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:19,840 replenish. And we're pumping out too many wastes and toxins for the earth to detoxify. 221 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:30,080 We're making everybody sick. Yeah. And we're making the earth, there's less of the earth for 222 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:34,320 every succeeding generation. And this has been going on for a long time, but we accelerated it 223 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:39,440 when we found fossil fuels. Now, that's one problem in the multi-crisis. Here's another problem. 224 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:45,920 The way our economic system works is it funnels more and more wealth to a smaller and smaller 225 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:51,680 group of people who use that wealth to pay politicians to do their bidding 226 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:59,280 and to manipulate the public through both mass and social media. We've become Greece. 227 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:09,920 Yeah. We have. We've become Greece. Yeah. And so when the people with the most money have, 228 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:16,000 you know, 400 times the power or 4,000 times the power of an average person, 229 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:22,800 they can manipulate things to keep working for their advantage. And in fact, if you really want 230 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:27,840 to get cynical, there are many scenarios that it's to their advantage if a whole lot of the 231 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:36,160 rest of us die. So, you know, that funneling of power is a second part of the multi-crisis. 232 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:42,160 A third part of the multi-crisis is that our nations and individuals are amassing more and 233 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:46,480 more weapons of greater and greater kill power. So we all know about nuclear weapons. And there's 234 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:52,080 been a lot of debate about AR-15s and the like. But if you just think of it this way, if people 235 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:59,120 get upset on an individual level, on a party level having a civil war, on a national level going to 236 00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:06,320 war against another nation, we have so many more weapons out there to cause so much more damage. 237 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,640 So you put those three together. And then let me add one more. We could add several others beyond 238 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:16,480 that, but let me add one more. Normally, our religious communities help us develop character 239 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:24,080 and virtue and wisdom to face our realities. Almost nobody looks at our religious communities 240 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:31,120 now and sees anything other than a group of sycophants playing up to rich people and powerful 241 00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:38,240 politicians. Brian, when you and I met, we probably met in like 2010, sometime around there, 242 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:44,880 nuns really weren't that big of a category statistically. And now they are the largest 243 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:52,880 category. That's the divide being created is people who feel a disconnection to tradition. 244 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:59,440 And that's the problem is you rob people of traditions, of the histories, and we're in 245 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:05,360 uncharted territory. And I think we're trying to figure out how do we get out of this power dynamic 246 00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:12,080 that feels like the Titanic is sinking. And when you put those four together, 247 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:18,080 when they speak of a multi-crisis, what they mean is each problem makes the other problems harder 248 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:23,840 to solve. And there's no single one that can be solved without all four of those being addressed. 249 00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:30,960 And for people like me, who I was a pastor for 24 years and you guys committed Christians, 250 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:36,960 one of the places where we would like to see some leverage is in the world of faith and 251 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:42,480 spirituality and religion. We understand that many people are going in another direction, 252 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:47,200 but we're interested in getting all the willing people that we can find to say, 253 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,840 we've got to become part of the solution instead of part of the problem. And the irony is 254 00:26:51,840 --> 00:27:01,280 the more I think about this, we will be so much better Christians if we decided to take our current 255 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:09,040 situation seriously. Brian, let me ask you a pastoral question then. What does love do in 256 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:14,480 this moment? That's kind of the question everybody's probably asking is like, I want to be true to my 257 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:21,600 faith, but man, I got to protect my family. What does love do right now? Like how does Jesus show 258 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:29,120 up? Yeah. Well, can I just say this is a place where our Christian religion thought it was doing 259 00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:34,160 something good and may find out it was doing something that wasn't so good. For 30 or 40 years, 260 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:40,160 we had a focus on the family. And what that made us basically say is I care about my nuclear family 261 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:47,280 and to hell with everybody else. I just want my family to be okay. And that's understandable. 262 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:52,000 We all love our families, but it's so interesting that when Jesus said the great commandment was to 263 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:56,560 love God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind, and he didn't say to love your family as 264 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:02,240 yourself. He said to love your neighbors yourself. And there's a lot we could talk about this, but 265 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:09,200 none of our families will have wellbeing without our communities having wellbeing. And none of our 266 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:15,200 communities will have wellbeing without the larger ecosystem having wellbeing. And so suddenly we're 267 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:21,680 at this place where we have to go and correct a wrong turn we took when we put our focus on the 268 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:28,240 family instead of our focus on the whole world that God loves, our neighbors and the earth itself, 269 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:37,760 our fellow creatures. And so I think what love requires us to do is to step back and face the 270 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:43,440 gravity of the problem. I have four adult children, but one of my children is a cancer survivor. When 271 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:48,800 he was six and a half, he was diagnosed with leukemia. Love did not mean that I would say, 272 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:56,000 oh, it can't be that bad. Don't pay attention to the doctors. Love meant I had to face every bit of 273 00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:04,400 the data I could on his illness. If I cared about him, I needed reality. So I think we start there. 274 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:11,280 Love requires us to face reality. And then love requires us to become flexible and do what needs 275 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:17,680 to be done in the situation. Now in the ultimate challenge, well, I'll put it this way. When you 276 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:24,480 mentioned about what can I do for my family, in the book I include a really hideous quote from a 277 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:31,440 well-known right-wing radio personality who basically said he would be glad to kill all 278 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:37,920 of his neighbors and feed their bodies to his daughters. Someday I think his daughters will 279 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:42,400 be embarrassed that their father was like that. And he will have wished he would have been a nicer 280 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:50,400 guy to not leave his daughters such a horrible legacy. But I then quoted a friend of mine who 281 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,240 was asked the same thing. What should we do to prepare for hard times that are coming? 282 00:29:54,240 --> 00:30:01,600 Should I get a gun? And my friend said, I'm an expert marksman. I was in the military. I was a 283 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:09,280 sharpshooter. I do not want to kill my neighbors. I would rather die with my neighbors in shared 284 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:17,200 want than kill them for my survival. You have two very different worlds depending on whether 285 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:23,200 everybody's out for himself and his nuclear family or do we actually learn to be out for each other? 286 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:29,760 Now for me to say that to some people sounds against the economy. It's anti-capitalist. And 287 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:35,280 to some it even sounds anti-American because they've defined freedom as freedom for the 288 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:40,160 individual to be selfish. And I just think those are two big mistakes. 289 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:45,360 Well, I think you can. I think that's been the test tube. Richard and I talk about this all the 290 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:51,760 time on this podcast is this feels like 40 years of we've test tube capitalism. And now we're 291 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:58,320 reaping its consequences. And we're kind of asking, like I'm a white male that works in Silicon Valley. 292 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:06,000 So I sit in the middle of it and when is someone going to begin asking some really important 293 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:12,560 questions about consequences because it feels like we're going off a cliff. And that's what 294 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:17,920 people are freaked out about. And back to your point of neighbors is at the end of the day, 295 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,640 I don't care what goes on in Washington. I care what happens to the people that live right around 296 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:27,040 me. Those are the people that I want to protect because those are the people I have relationships 297 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,440 with. And that's what people are really wanting is they're just wanting connection with the guy 298 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:38,560 next door. Not to be an enemy, but to be a friend and a neighbor. And I think you and I grew up in 299 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:47,120 a time when that was somewhat there. And I think that's almost like the vapors that are left going. 300 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:55,760 And Gen Z is now going, was it real? Was it real? Because if it was real, why have you let it go? 301 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:57,920 Yeah, I think that's what people are wondering. 302 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:06,080 Or I mean, pivot to Elon Musk version of capitalism where he kind of changes the dynamic 303 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:11,760 and says, we've got a car, we've got an infrastructure, we've got to make it very 304 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:16,320 simple. We want to try and try to make it as effective and as economic as possible. I mean, 305 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:21,760 the CEO of Ford, I think, looked at the types of things that they need to make a car and they need 306 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:26,160 all these multiple supply chains. And if they were going to make an electric vehicle, they'd 307 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,000 have to start from scratch because what Elon's created is one piece of software that actually 308 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:35,120 is the control center for the entire car. So he's upended the paradigm, whether it's, 309 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,280 I mean, Neuralink is a different story altogether. That's where we get into a little transhumanism 310 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:45,360 there. But what he's doing with Skylink or Starlink, and then what he's doing with Boring and what he's 311 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:50,560 doing with the car industry. And he's light years ahead. I think those are the kinds of 312 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:55,840 capitalistic angles that are the things we expect and we love, right? Where that's perfect competition. 313 00:32:55,840 --> 00:33:04,000 I think Elon is a great example of someone who's been, Elon's not a dumb guy. That's what I love 314 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:10,080 about Elon is he's an incredibly intelligent guy on a capitalistic front from business stance, 315 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:17,280 but also from a physics standpoint. He understands the material world. And I think what the question 316 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:25,440 in being asked about Elon right now is, are we capable of handling that amount of power 317 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:31,760 as a human being? Because he's invested in everything. And I think that's the arc that 318 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:39,200 we're going back to here, Brian, is we're in uncharted territories from a pastoral sense. 319 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:49,280 How do you address that? Well, if I'm speaking, it's funny, if I'm speaking with Christians, 320 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,360 in some ways, this is almost harder than if I'm speaking with people who aren't familiar with 321 00:33:53,360 --> 00:34:00,720 the Bible. We have both audiences too. Because one of the things I like to do with people is I like 322 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:10,240 to take them back to the Hebrew scriptures and talk to them about the vision of Abraham. I am 323 00:34:10,240 --> 00:34:16,160 blessed to be a blessing. I'm not blessed to make myself first and dominate everyone else. 324 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:22,960 People don't realize that, but that call of Abraham in the book of Genesis in chapter 12 is 325 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:28,640 an anti-imperial call. I'm not blessed to control. I'm blessed to be a blessing. 326 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:35,920 So, you know, you show somebody that in the Bible. And ironically, it's very hard often for 327 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,240 Christians to pay attention to these things because they've been given a very, you know, 328 00:34:40,240 --> 00:34:45,600 well-defined route through the Bible of verses they quote and verses they ignore and verses 329 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,320 they prioritize and not. The lens, yes. 330 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:55,200 Yeah, that's right. And I mean, you could just take a guided tour through the Bible and see a vision 331 00:34:55,200 --> 00:35:01,760 of a different kind of world. And it seems to me that what repent, the word repent ultimately means 332 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:08,000 is not feel guilty about something. What repent means is to rethink everything, rethink your most 333 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:14,400 fundamental assumptions. And I think when people are invited to rethink their deepest assumptions. 334 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:21,120 In a safe space, right? Yeah, not at the tip of a spear, right? 335 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:28,080 Yeah. That's right. Exactly. Yeah. Rethink or you'll be punctured, right? But to rethink our deepest 336 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:34,880 assumptions, people start to be able to imagine a better world. Another world is possible. 337 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:41,680 Yeah. That's the rebirth. Brian, you have been a very large part of that human dialogue. 338 00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:45,200 That's one of the things that I've always appreciated is you've had a tremendous 339 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:55,600 amount of humility about what happened to you. And but you kind of started, at least in some 340 00:35:55,600 --> 00:36:04,960 frames, sort of a desire for that rethinking. I want to ask you two questions is kind of an arc 341 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:11,920 from when we we last the last time I saw you was in New Mexico at Richard Roar's place. We had that 342 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:18,880 lunch and we kind of all walked away going, wow, something just happened here in a really good way. 343 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:27,280 What has been the cost and the outcome for you taking that journey? 344 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:37,040 Well, you know, my I grew up in a Christian fundamentalist background. And then for me to 345 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:43,280 for me to move into evangelicalism was moving into a way more liberal space, right? Although 346 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:48,320 right about the same time I was moving to that space, I think evangelicals were kind of taken 347 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:55,600 over again by by fundamentalists. I mean, it's very hard to find evangelicals today who who are 348 00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:02,720 distinguishable from from fundamentalists. Yes. Yeah. From the turn of the century. Yeah. Yeah. 349 00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:12,400 Yeah. But when I crossed whatever one boundary too far, I found out that even though evangelicals 350 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:18,560 don't have a strict denominational headquarters, they have a very effective method of excommunicating 351 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:24,480 people. And so it took three or four years and I got a firsthand experience of how that happened. 352 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:29,680 And I you know, it was disturbing. It was difficult. You guys might know this name. 353 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:35,520 There was a wonderful in the best sense of the word evangelical teacher named Dallas Willard, 354 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:40,720 who was very good to me. Dallas, I consider him one of my mentors. He was very kind to me. 355 00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:47,200 And one day Dallas gave me this little printout that was called a prayer for enemies. And it was 356 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:53,040 a prayer written by a Serbian Orthodox bishop where he is trying to come to terms with being 357 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:57,600 betrayed by people. And Dallas gave this to me and said, I think you're going to need this. 358 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:04,000 It is deep, slow voice. And I did. And that prayer helped me. And it. 359 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:09,280 What did you learn through that? Right. Well, I learned a couple of things, you know, 360 00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:20,080 like I've always tried to be honest and I've always tried to not be at least as arrogant 361 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:25,760 as I could have been. So what that meant is I would try to say what I saw and and had come to 362 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:32,720 believe. But I would also always be open to somebody showing me I was wrong. And one of the 363 00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:37,920 things that happened during my exit from evangelicalism is I found out that nobody had any 364 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:44,720 good arguments against anything I was saying. All the people had was to work within their little 365 00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:48,960 framework and say this is different from our framework. Therefore, it's of the devil and it's 366 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:56,160 wrong. But when they couldn't step outside their framework to say anything to anybody who questioned 367 00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:01,840 it, except that you're going to hell or whatever, if you don't go along with this here, it was very 368 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:06,880 surprising. Like I was disappointed in a way. I'd write a book and I think somebody's going to write 369 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:11,760 a really substantial critique of this book that I've got to take seriously. And it would just 370 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:16,320 again and again, it would be like, oh, not that again, you know, and and some of it was just me 371 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:22,480 spirit and a name calling and and that sort of thing. So I suppose one of the things I learned 372 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:30,160 is that you're afraid of certain people for the wrong. I was afraid of certain people for the wrong 373 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:39,920 reasons. They didn't really have an argument or a compelling counter vision to what I was saying. 374 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:46,560 They they only had, you know, to check off the box that I was different. So that's one of the things 375 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:54,960 I learned. The other thing I learned is that there's a big world outside and that that even 376 00:39:54,960 --> 00:40:00,080 though some people might not have wanted to go with me, I still felt the presence of the spirit 377 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:07,840 with me. And and yeah, so I've got a great story for you. Yeah, my story is I'm a desirability 378 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:12,880 God, John Piper. Yes, Mark Driscoll up on stage for talking about the supremacy of Christ in a 379 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:19,600 postmodern world. And he referred to you as that crazy old uncle that, you know, gets a little 380 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,200 drunk every now and then, but you love him and you just got to kind of put up with him every now and 381 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:30,720 then. And what's so amazing about that? And in fact, I think you referred to Rob Bellas as evil 382 00:40:30,720 --> 00:40:36,000 double gamer twin because they both had a Mars Hill. But what's so sad is, is that his life is 383 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:41,280 he has fallen, right? There's an entire podcast. Now he's the uncle. There's an entire podcast and 384 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:46,880 he's still the polemic, tired, sad person, which is a shame, right? Because he did have a lot of 385 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:54,160 amazing passion. And he was there for a reason caused a lot of damage. But here's what here's 386 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:58,160 where you are. And your legacy is going to be a lot different than his brand, you know. And so, 387 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:02,640 I mean, we all kind of chuckled at that up there. But, you know, and it's not about who gets the 388 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:07,200 last laugh. It's just about, you know, who continues to walk the walk and have a legacy that 389 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:11,760 continues to be above board, you know. And so I think that's, that says a lot. 390 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:12,960 Well, thank you. 391 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:17,520 Brian, to your credit, I think that's one of the things that you've maintained throughout the 392 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:25,200 entire process of, first, you just ask really good questions, but you maintain your own sense of 393 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:29,440 humanity, at least from my perspective. I know you probably went through all kinds of ups and downs, 394 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:36,560 but you held on to dignity. And I think at the end of the day, that's all anyone hopes for is just 395 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:41,680 to hold on to a sense of dignity through the experience. Like I talk to my kids all the time, 396 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:46,960 how do you get through really hard times? Is it you hold on to your sense of dignity of who you are? 397 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:54,080 Because that's the only thing that holds weight in the midst of chaos is who you really are. 398 00:41:54,080 --> 00:42:03,440 And you did that very well. Because I know you got slammed hard. And you're a soft guy. You're 399 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,440 like, you're a lovable guy. 400 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:13,200 Well, it feels like a very long time ago now. And one of the great benefits of being excommunicated 401 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:20,560 is they don't kick you around anymore once they've kicked you out. So, but, you know, I 402 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:28,240 so much as you're saying this, I'm just remembering a moment in when I was in college. So I was 403 00:42:28,240 --> 00:42:36,560 probably 20 or 21 years old and I had had this spiritual practice that someone had taught me. 404 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:41,280 They said, instead of trying to read through the whole, like I read through the whole Bible, 405 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:45,200 you know, and I had, and for many years I'd read through the whole Bible with a little three 406 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:50,480 chapters a day thing, which I, I think is a great thing. And I think that's the thing that I 407 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:56,080 am a big fan of, but somebody said, why don't you just go really deep in one passage and don't move 408 00:42:56,080 --> 00:43:03,120 on to another passage until you feel you're, you know, you're satiated with that one. So I read 409 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:09,680 first Corinthians 13 and Romans 12, those two chapters every day for many years. They were my 410 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:16,240 meditation day after day after day. So first Corinthians 13 about love. And I was sitting on 411 00:43:16,240 --> 00:43:21,600 outdoors at my university in between classes. And I just had one of those moments. I think all of 412 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:26,720 us experienced sometimes where I just felt God very close to me. You know, I felt, I just felt 413 00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:33,760 out of the blue in some ways, you know, it just, and I, I guess I had read that story about Solomon 414 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:38,880 asking God or God asking Solomon, you know, what do you want to ask me for? You can have anything. 415 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:44,080 And I sort of felt, what do I really want is the question. And I just thought, well, I want to be a 416 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:49,360 loving person. That's what matters to Jesus. That's what matters to Paul. I want to be a loving 417 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:54,400 person. And then I thought, and like Solomon, I'd like to be a wise person. Well, I wish I would 418 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:59,600 have known, it wouldn't have made any difference, but you know, if you want to be a loving person 419 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:05,120 and a wise person, the only thing that means is you're going to have to go through pain. If you, 420 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:09,600 if you want wisdom and love with no pain, it's just doesn't work in this universe. So let me 421 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:15,600 ask you, let me ask you this, just as a fellow sojourner, was the journey of, cause I, this is 422 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:20,880 what I preach a hundred percent of the time. It's just about love. Just do love and you've got, 423 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:25,680 you got a hundred percent of it. Has the journey of love been worth it to you? 424 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:27,760 Oh my goodness. No, no question. 425 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:32,160 Because I think that's what people miss out. And that's what Gen Z doesn't understand is 426 00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:38,560 we've been on this journey for a very long time. We came from solid roots. There's tremendous 427 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:46,960 deep wisdom in the gospel. And we have that when things are bad. And that's what allows you to 428 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:52,400 remain sober enough not to kill your neighbor. And we're at that period where people are really 429 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:59,280 asking what's really valuable. Is it the politics or is it this other thing called grace that Jesus 430 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:04,080 said? You know, it's like, like people are really kind of saying, can we just cut out the BS, 431 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:13,200 you know? And really that's what I loved about your whole arc, Brian, is you maintain love. 432 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,880 So thank you for being that example. Well, it's, it's kind of you to say, 433 00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:24,640 and obviously all of us have our bad days and bad decades, but, but, but there really is a wonderful 434 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:30,880 gift. And it's really the gift that I say that I got from Jesus is that Jesus said, this thing is 435 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:36,720 about love, love God and love your neighbor. And yes, oh my goodness. It's not about like, 436 00:45:36,720 --> 00:45:42,320 you don't have to fulfill religious demands. It's you get to participate in this thing called love. 437 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:47,520 And if you do, your life is going to be awesome. You're going to have to go through stuff, 438 00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:55,520 but it's going, the fruit of it is so richly rewarding. And I think that's what most people 439 00:45:55,520 --> 00:46:00,560 don't have is that sense of what does it mean to love? I think that's the fabric that's been ripped 440 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:06,560 out of America, to be honest. And, and you know, Jonathan, this is where, like, when I think about 441 00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:15,360 a person who would be cynical about that, I think this is the tragedy that they have never been part 442 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:21,520 of a community that shared that value. I think if you're the only person who wants to live by love, 443 00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:27,520 that's going to be really, really tough. But, and here's where, you know, Jesus words, if you could 444 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:34,800 just find two or three people who sort of say, that's all you need. We, we share this idea that 445 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:43,040 love is, is what really, really matters. And we're pursuing wisdom and from a heart of love, 446 00:46:44,720 --> 00:46:47,600 you know, two or three is enough. Yeah. Like you say, 447 00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:53,600 love is the acts of love. Love is the, and that's, it has to be experienced, right? It's not an 448 00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:58,960 intellectual thought. It's not a something that you can see in a movie or even read. It's something 449 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:03,520 that has to be lived out, right? And it, and if it, and you can't live it out and solo, I mean, 450 00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:08,240 you can have a relationship with God, you know, in a convent or in a monastery. And the people that 451 00:47:08,240 --> 00:47:12,880 live those lives are, are living in a vibrational world where they're, they're trying to affect 452 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:18,320 the cosmos, right? You're absolutely right. You're, you're, you've nailed it. And the M. Scott Peck, 453 00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,800 you know, talked about that in such a great book, but the idea of, it's almost the Dharma, right? 454 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:28,080 You're, you're, you're doing it day to day. This is, this is the duty. And then the outcomes come 455 00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:33,200 after that, right? And that's what I love where you talked about, you're less worried about outcomes. 456 00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:37,440 I recently read the Bhagavad Gita and listened to it on audio book and what an amazing inspired 457 00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:44,960 sacred text, right? It's incredible, right? And the idea of don't worry about the outcomes, 458 00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:50,080 be detached from those, focus on, on what you're doing now. And this is how this reminds me of the, 459 00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:54,560 I don't know if it was Augusta, but it goes back to the idea of there's a bunch of starfish. They're 460 00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:58,880 all looks like they're going to dry up on the sea. And he's throwing one a minute at a time. And 461 00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:02,880 somebody comes up and says, Hey, what, you know, what are you going to do? Save them all? No, 462 00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:06,640 but I just saved that one. Right. And I think that's the kind of mentality we need to have to 463 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:13,600 have these kinds of two or three people gathered to build on that community, to have shared growth, 464 00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:20,560 right? And pain and challenge and, and then to build, right. And to build in a positive way. 465 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:27,920 Yeah. Right. Cause you talk about some of it in your book. How does the world begin addressing 466 00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:35,600 these types of, these types of almost powerless ideas? How does the world begin to respond 467 00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:43,040 effectively? Well, I think the process is underway. I think the process is underway. 468 00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:49,200 I think there are setbacks and sometimes I think the setbacks are necessary because 469 00:48:50,240 --> 00:48:58,000 the setbacks end up being self-correcting. You know, let me say it this way. If I, 470 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:02,640 I'm thinking about this, cause last night I went to the opening of the new movie, the civil war. 471 00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:09,760 Oh, yeah. It's devastating. It's devastating on many, many levels. I, I, 472 00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:16,560 I, yeah, it's, it's really worth it. It's worth seeing and it will stay like it's, 473 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:26,400 I'm still buzzing with it at this moment, but if you have a great nation and you have people 474 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:32,960 decide to have a civil war against each other, the civil war will be self-correcting because 475 00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:40,560 both sides will destroy each other so greatly that that nation will be humbled and it, it, 476 00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:48,480 you know, it will correct itself, right? You, if you choose a foolish and dangerous leader, 477 00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:56,560 that leader will get you in so much trouble that, you know, you'll, you'll eventually realize, 478 00:49:56,560 --> 00:50:02,480 well, that was a really, really big mistake. So these things tend to have a self-correction to 479 00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:09,440 them. It's just that the price can be super, super high. And this is, we're in the situation 480 00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:15,920 we're in now because a lot of people don't know this. Did you know that people figured out climate 481 00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:24,160 change and made incredibly accurate predictions about climate change in the mid 1800s? But it was 482 00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:35,120 a, it was suppressed, pushed aside. And, and, you know, in the 60s, 70s, 80s, data really increased. 483 00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:40,640 And then in fact, you probably have heard this, but Exxon, their people sent a report to the 484 00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:47,840 leaders of Exxon and said, our product will basically destroy the world if, but they knew 485 00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:55,840 they were so accurate in what would happen if they kept pumping out fossil fuels. And so then 486 00:50:55,840 --> 00:51:02,160 they spent millions and millions of dollars to sow misinformation and distract people and all the 487 00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:09,360 rest, much like the tobacco industry did. So we're in this situation we are now because of really bad 488 00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:15,280 ways that people have not gotten the message and not responded to it. And eventually things will 489 00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:21,840 get bad enough that more people will pay attention. It's up to us how soon that will be and how much 490 00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:28,960 pain will require to face it. And that applied to, that applies to racism. That applies to, 491 00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:35,040 you know, it applies to all of the problems we face. You know, if you want to be a racist, 492 00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:40,640 you have a very ugly future ahead of you. And you think it's going to make, solve your problems. 493 00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:46,080 Oh, it's going to create problems for seven generations from now. So yeah.