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Welcome to Living in the Matrix.

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I'm Jonathan and I'm left of center.

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And I'm Rich and I tend to lean a little bit more to the right.

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But the bottom line is, is together we try to look for the balance of what it means to

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be human in today's world.

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All right.

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Welcome everybody.

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Living in the Matrix.

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I'm Jonathan.

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This is my co host Rich.

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Say hello, Rich.

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Hey everybody.

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Great to be here.

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And my goodness, this is number three this week.

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So they say three is a charm, David.

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Let's go.

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It's going to be a good one.

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I guarantee you today is going to be a fantastic one.

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So today we have David Congdon and David has written a book on the four views of Christian

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universalism, which we love diving into the show because I think this is probably one

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of the, as I was saying to David earlier, hell is probably one of the most important

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subjects to deconstruct because when you do, it can radically change the way you look at

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Christianity and give it a life that you didn't realize was actually there.

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So welcome David.

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It is a pleasure to have you.

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Thanks so much for having me.

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It's great to be here.

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Absolutely.

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So let's dive in and why don't you give our audience sort of a quick summary of your book

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encapsulated because there's sort of four parts help us understand it at a high level.

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Well, the book is a volume of multi, it's a multi view volume.

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So I'm not the only person who has a perspective in this book.

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There are three others who are also in the volume.

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I am sort of the moderator of the conversation, but I'm also a contributor to the four views.

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I have one of the four in the book.

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And you know, the goal of the book is just to help people understand that universalism

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is not a single thing.

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It's a there's a range of views and ideas under the broad umbrella of Christian universalism.

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So the book in that sense is helping is trying to help people to complicate the conversation,

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to diversify how we talk about this issue, not to assume that if you have one knockdown

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argument against one position that that somehow eradicates the whole conversation, you know,

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that universalism is now out.

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So the four views in the book, briefly, just I'll just name them.

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One is on a early Christian or patristic universalism.

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So this is a universalism that you might find in earlier early church period.

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Another one is an evangelical universalism, one that was more congenial to contemporary

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American evangelicals.

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Another one is what we call a post Bardian universalism.

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So for those who don't know who Carl Bard is, he's a prominent Swiss theologian in the

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20th century.

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His view is important for that that chapter.

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And then there's my own view, which I'm broadly calling existential universalism.

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It's certainly the most out there in terms of the conversation, but it's trying to show

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you can.

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There's all types can be included in this conversation.

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Yeah.

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So just so I know, as we talk about that, do you buy in hook line and sinker on your

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view or is it sort of what you're wrestling with?

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I mean, I'm hook line and sinker in the sense of if we're going to have some kind of Christian

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theology, it had better be universalist.

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But I think I'm open to articulate in that in a variety of ways.

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I don't think presenting is an argument.

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It is an argument.

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Right.

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Well, I think the spirit of the book is to say you don't have to accept my position for

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me to view you as like in the right.

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It's just an idea I'm proposing to maybe help to help people think about things a little

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more carefully and critically.

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Yeah.

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The reason why I act.

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Yeah.

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Quick, quick, quick.

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The reason why I ask is I want to make sure I understand the position that you're holding

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right now because I hold my understanding of my faith very lightly.

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I can let go any part if I get introduced to new evidence that is all I have one rule

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has to be consistent with love.

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That's it.

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And what I find is it that always places me in a wrestling.

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And I want to know how hard you hold on to it because I love this conversation.

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Yeah, because I want to I want to be totally open to new ideas here.

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I mean, I'm very open to new ideas.

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I don't hold my own position as being it has to be right.

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My own views have changed radically over the years.

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You know, and I'm it's an ongoing process.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah.

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Rich, you had a question?

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Yeah.

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The thing I was going to mention is, well, even David Artman in his book, Graves Saves

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All, I mean, even has an example of the early church fathers as a summary of ways, right?

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Here's scripture, there's tradition, there's early church fathers.

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There's almost like God is a loving father, right?

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And so we've got this almost character defense that even C.S. Lewis would say, listen, if

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there's a passage in the Bible that differs with the character of God, I go with the character

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of God, etc.

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Right.

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The other thing I wanted to I'm really excited about is, you know, well, I want you to be

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aware that our audience primarily isn't really deeply theological.

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So in your interview with your podcast host, you talked about there's not a process theology

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version of of of universalism, if you would.

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And we none of our folks know what the dipolar kind of aspects of God are, nor would they

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know what DBH means by default, right?

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If you throw out, you know, you know, I told him, OK, cool.

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Yeah.

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So I realized that our audience is open.

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We've seen a lot of cool things.

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And our stuff has ranged from talking about theology and evangelicalism and universalism

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to ways to heal yourself through fasting and meditation and ice baths and and a lot of

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other kinds of constructs.

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Right.

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So understand that it's a pretty general audience.

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But I think that the general that the temper of where we're going with this is going to

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be huge for people just to add another benefit, another thing.

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Right.

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So that's all I wanted to throw out there.

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Thanks so much.

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That's great.

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Absolutely.

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You know, that's a really good point, Rich, is that we don't treat this like a podcast.

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In other words, we're trying to communicate information to people.

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We treat it as a conversation because our goal is to find people who are having fascinating

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conversations and have them with them.

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And I think this this this idea has so much rich value.

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And I love talking about it because I think it's life giving.

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So I'll ask this first, because you have a unique story that I know.

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What is your background?

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Because you got to a point where you wrote this book, which is on the edges.

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How did you get there?

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Because I know you came from a pretty famous school.

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Yes.

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So I grew up deep in the heart of American evangelicalism.

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As I mentioned earlier, I mean, I am descended from the founder of Wheaton College.

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So Wheaton College is deep in my in my family, in my history.

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I grew up going to my grandparents house down the road from where I went from where I grew

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up and on my grandparents wall is a picture of Jonathan Blanchard, the founder of Wheaton

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College and the picture of Wheaton in 1860, the original building.

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And I'm a sixth generation Wheaton grad.

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So my father is named Jonathan Blanchard Congdon.

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So it's all you know, it's deep in there.

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Right.

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So growing up, I heard about all the time I heard about the origins of kind of contemporary

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evangelicalism constantly.

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My whole family is a family of pastors and missionaries.

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You know, so my grandfather was a professor of Bible and theology for 30 years.

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So it's it's it's the world in which I was raised.

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It's the air that I was breathing from from childhood.

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And so naturally, of course, I went to Wheaton and I went there as a outspoken fundamentalist.

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I called myself a fundamentalist to my roommate and my friends there.

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Who are your influences at that point?

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Who are your influences at that?

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Right going into Wheaton?

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I mean, to be honest, it was just my own family.

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If I'm funny, you know, I didn't I wasn't trained theologically as a child.

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My parents were not, you know, intellectual types who were going to be, you know, feeding

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me theology and philosophy from a young age.

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I had a normal childhood.

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I had a normal childhood.

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I came to college to study English literature.

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I wanted to, you know, I was an English major.

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I wanted to study poetry.

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I was a poet.

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That's what I wanted to do.

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It but there's no money in poetry, though.

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There's no money in poetry.

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No, there's not.

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So I didn't care about the nuances of biblical interpretation, theological history, all that

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stuff was completely irrelevant to me.

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I actually didn't even know when I went to college, when I went to Wheaton, that Christians

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could be baptized as an infant.

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I didn't realize that was a thing that you did.

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You know, to me, that was like something that, you know, those pagan Catholics did, you know,

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right?

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Like it was completely outside of my realm of experience.

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So I was utterly ignorant of theological history, church history, knew none of it.

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But I did know that whatever my family believed was right.

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You know, I knew that.

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And I knew that they were, you know, pre-millennial dispensationalists.

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Those are big money words in evangelicalism.

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I didn't know the nuances of those words.

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I didn't know the details of those theories, but I knew that it was right because my grandfather

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believed it.

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My father believed it.

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My parents believed that that was the position.

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So I had to be right.

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But I remember very vividly the summer between my freshman and sophomore years in college,

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I picked up a copy of Mark Knoll's book, The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind.

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If you don't know that book, it was a very important landmark book in the 90s that came

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out.

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And Knoll's book, when I read it the first time through that summer, I quite literally

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threw it across the room.

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You know, I smashed it against the wall of my parents' house and was just furious that

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this person, who I respected because he was a professor at Wheaton College, was saying

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such obviously heretical things.

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And I picked the book up again about a month later towards the end of summer, read it again,

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and kind of had a conversion experience.

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You know, realized that maybe he's right.

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Maybe evangelicals don't have the totality of truth in their grasp.

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Maybe they aren't the only right theology or position to hold.

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And I went into my second year at Wheaton College with a readiness to relearn everything

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from the ground up.

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So I just said, I'll set aside everything that I've been taught and I'll just learn

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to refresh.

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Did you talk to your family about that?

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That's kind of a, hey, I'm kind of leading the fold a little bit.

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Yeah, that's a big deal.

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Did you talk to your family or did you keep it private?

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I did talk to my family.

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You know, I had already, you know, my first semester at Wheaton College, I had a philosophy

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professor who really changed my life and he had me read Augustine's Confessions for the

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first time.

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I didn't encounter Augustine.

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I had no idea who he was.

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You know, and I read Confessions and it blew my mind.

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You know, it absolutely rocked my world.

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And I remember calling home to my parents and saying, hey, Dad, Mom, I read Augustine's

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Confessions, you know, and it was incredible.

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And I remember my dad telling me on the phone, he's like, you liked your philosophy class?

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I hate it.

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You know, he's like, okay, you know, if you like that stuff, go ahead, read it.

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You know, he didn't care.

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You know, my parents didn't care.

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They just, they would encourage me to read whatever I found interesting.

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They had no, they couldn't comprehend why I found that interesting, but they knew that

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if I was interested in it, it was okay, because they were very supportive parents.

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They were always wanting me to pursue whatever I was interested in at the moment.

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And so they didn't care about whether or not I was toeing the theological line of the family.

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That wasn't their concern.

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You felt the freedom to explore?

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Absolutely.

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That's awesome.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's a question.

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Yeah.

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Quick question regarding the Confessions, because it blew my mind.

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Because a lot of people love C.S. Lewis than they don't in the evangelical framework, right?

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Theistic evolution.

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A lot of people love Augustine in some regards, but I'm reading this passage that says Augustine's

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on his deathbed.

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His mother says, don't baptize him because if he goes back to his lecherous ways after

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he gets baptized, what good is that going to do?

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Right?

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He's going to be baptized for the mission of sins, including him praying for his dead

244
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mother so that Satan wouldn't guile him and take him off to his.

245
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And I'm like, whoa, we've got purgatory or salvation after some kind of things happening

246
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here.

247
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Were those kinds of things kind of tickling your fancy?

248
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And maybe was there anything else about Mark Knoll's book that kind of started saying,

249
00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:54,320
it looks like there's reasonable people, especially Augustine, who are saying things that, wait

250
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,160
a minute, I've got to take a pause here.

251
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Well, the combination for me was the fact that Knoll's book was showing how, and he

252
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,560
goes through different areas of evangelical thought, like creationism is a big part of

253
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the book, which was the part that really rocked me.

254
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That grew up as a young earth creationist.

255
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But what Knoll's showing that each of these areas in evangelical thought are only maybe

256
00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:20,040
50, 60, 70 years old, that they're at most be a hundred years old.

257
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So we're talking about a tiny sliver of Christian history in which these ideas had sprung up.

258
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And so for me, the hard thing for me to grasp was that everything I had believed from childhood

259
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:42,760
was rested on a foundation of just mere decades of time and had, you know, it was the shakiest

260
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of foundations upon which to base myself intellectually.

261
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And so that combined with reading an ancient Christian theologian like Augustine, who I

262
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found deeply fascinating and thoughtful and profound and just a beautiful writer, the

263
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combination of those two things was earth shattering to me because here on the one hand

264
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was how shallow and superficial my thought process was or what I had believed was.

265
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And here's an ancient theologian who was deep and profound and really wrestling with things

266
00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:22,080
that were at a whole other level than from what I was, what I had been thinking about

267
00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:23,080
or believing.

268
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And so the combination of that was what really, you know, had forced me to open my mind to

269
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what else was out there.

270
00:15:32,580 --> 00:15:34,600
So I've never read Confessions.

271
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:35,600
I should.

272
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:36,600
It's a great book.

273
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:37,600
I want you.

274
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,400
Yeah, you're making it sound amazing.

275
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,240
What is it out to you?

276
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:43,360
Because you guys have both read it.

277
00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,120
What stood out to you about it?

278
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Honesty, just absolute.

279
00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:52,600
Almost like just coming down.

280
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,840
I mean, I think he was in tears.

281
00:15:54,840 --> 00:16:00,280
He was wrestling with something and there's a sign there's a scene where he somehow has

282
00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:02,240
a sign to open the Book of Romans, I think.

283
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:04,000
But I mean, there's a lot of different things in there.

284
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,920
But if you actually look at it, you're looking into his heart of what's going on and what's

285
00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:12,640
breaking him and what's getting him, what's questioning about things in real life kinds

286
00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:13,640
of scenarios.

287
00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:15,200
It's a confession.

288
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:20,080
And the reason why people love it is because I think when he wrote it, it is not written.

289
00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:21,080
It's with intentionality.

290
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,640
You know how we talk about these things as you manifest, as you intentionally create

291
00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:31,600
love into the work you do or the food you make for your family or the music you play

292
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:32,920
in this particular book.

293
00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:40,080
The things that he wrote were so real, so almost tearful, almost the humanity of him

294
00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:41,960
just comes through shining in my mind.

295
00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,800
That's what was so powerful and brilliant too at the same time.

296
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:45,800
Go ahead, David.

297
00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:46,800
I mean, yeah, I agree with that.

298
00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:53,120
I think for me, I was just basically blown away by reading a work of theology for the

299
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:54,120
first time.

300
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:59,720
I mean, that was for me, I think it was my first experience reading a real work of theological

301
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:00,720
depth.

302
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:01,720
Right.

303
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:09,640
And having not encountered anything like that, I'm encountering this thoughtful doctrinal

304
00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:16,960
reflection in a very personal, a pious mode.

305
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:18,880
It's almost an act of worship in many ways.

306
00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:24,600
The book is very, he's constantly praying to God in between his reflections.

307
00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:32,880
And those reflections are deeply thoughtful issues of creation, issues of time and eternity,

308
00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,320
issues of sin and salvation.

309
00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,320
He's wrestling with these basic questions of theology.

310
00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:43,720
And I had never encountered, I never read anything wrestling with those kinds of doctrines

311
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:44,720
before.

312
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:52,000
And so for me, it was just realizing, oh, people have put serious thought into these

313
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:53,000
ideas.

314
00:17:53,000 --> 00:18:01,440
The question of time and eternity, for instance, I had never read anything that was wrestling

315
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,400
with that question before.

316
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:10,080
And I never thought about, oh, maybe my superficial idea about eternity is not...

317
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:16,320
I could spend a lifetime unpacking just one chapter of that book and just coming to grips

318
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:20,200
with that was a humbling experience.

319
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:25,440
So what happened after that in terms of your growth, where did that lead you?

320
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:30,640
Well, pretty quickly, as you can imagine, it led me to unravel some of my beliefs.

321
00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,160
And I went in a process of...

322
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,440
What was the first to go?

323
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:38,960
Probably my Young Earth Creationism.

324
00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,880
That's a pretty easy one to let go of, but that was the first thing that went.

325
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:47,160
And that was tough though, because my dad was a very strong believer at that time.

326
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:53,440
I used to go to Young Earth Creation meetings in my hometown growing up as a kid.

327
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:55,120
So it was deep.

328
00:18:55,120 --> 00:18:59,280
That was deep in the water for me.

329
00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:04,480
But that went pretty quickly because of Noel's book.

330
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,000
I started dipping my toes into theology at that point.

331
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:13,040
I started taking classes, took a systematic theology class at Wheaton College the next

332
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:14,040
year.

333
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:19,600
And that was opening my eyes to a whole realm of work that I had never encountered before,

334
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:20,600
including Karl Barth.

335
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:25,240
We read Barth in that class and some other people.

336
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:30,160
But I was also struck by these poets that I was reading.

337
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:34,160
So I was still an English major and I was still reading a lot of poetry.

338
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:41,880
And I was taking a lot of courses from Professor Roger Lundin, who passed away a while back.

339
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:48,600
But he was my mentor and he was a beloved mentor of mine.

340
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,360
I just really changed my life.

341
00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:57,880
But what he did was he did theology in some ways through literature and exploring theological

342
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,240
themes and through the books he was reading.

343
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:08,040
And so I wrote some papers under his guidance and some other people's guidance.

344
00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:13,120
I did a paper on T.S. Eliot and theology and prophecy that really was important for me.

345
00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:20,800
I did a piece on Czesław Miewoś, the Polish poet, looking at him and eschatology and narcissism.

346
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,320
And so at that point, I was just dabbling in ideas.

347
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,120
I had no idea what it was.

348
00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:28,920
I was out of my depth.

349
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:35,080
I wasn't prepared to really deal with those topics, but I was excited by them.

350
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,600
I was thrilled to be reading these theological ideas.

351
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:44,000
And so Professor Lundin recommended that I go to study at Princeton Seminary to do my

352
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:45,760
MDiv there.

353
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:53,160
His goal for me was I would do the MDiv, learn theology, then do a PhD in literature and

354
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:58,760
basically do what he was doing, but in my own way, kind of combining literature and

355
00:20:58,760 --> 00:20:59,760
theology.

356
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,720
And I still, there was a part of me that still wishes I had done that.

357
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,440
But when I was at Princeton, I sort of fell in love with that topic and realized that

358
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:12,000
was really speaking to me in a way that literature wasn't at that time.

359
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:13,000
And so I really wanted to-

360
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:14,000
Good question.

361
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,240
Didn't Andrew Ronich go to Princeton?

362
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,080
Do you know Andrew Ronich?

363
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,480
I think he did.

364
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:21,480
Do you know that name?

365
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:26,840
He's written a book on universalism.

366
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:28,880
It's a massive, massive book.

367
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:29,880
Yeah.

368
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,440
And David Artman recommended him on our podcast after we chatted with David.

369
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,360
So you're familiar with obviously David Artman.

370
00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:36,360
Yes.

371
00:21:36,360 --> 00:21:37,360
Yes.

372
00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:38,360
Yeah.

373
00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:39,360
Yeah.

374
00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:40,360
Very good.

375
00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:41,360
Sorry about that interjection.

376
00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:42,360
But I was thinking the same, I was in the same universe there.

377
00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:45,360
David, did you want to be a writer or a teacher or an editor?

378
00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:47,320
What'd you want to do with that?

379
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:54,760
I mean, so from the age of 11, I knew I wanted to get my PhD and be a professor of some kind.

380
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:56,520
That was my life goal from the age of 11.

381
00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,520
Did you see yourself in the writing?

382
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,920
I mean, I think growing up, you probably do.

383
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,760
I did, just because that was my family school.

384
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:12,120
But by the time I left Wheaton, I no longer felt at home there.

385
00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:15,600
Yeah, that's the question I was going to ask you.

386
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,160
Did this feel like curiosity or a deconstruction?

387
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:20,960
Oh, deconstruction for sure.

388
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:21,960
Really?

389
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:22,960
Absolutely.

390
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:23,960
Oh, yes.

391
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,960
Being in your family lineage, how did you feel suddenly being that far away from where

392
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:28,960
your family believed?

393
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,960
Well, I mean, I'm also-

394
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,600
Where the journey leads you in the middle of nowhere.

395
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:36,600
You know?

396
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,440
You're the only one in this room.

397
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,600
I have a combative personality at times when it comes to intellectual ideas, especially

398
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,200
at that time I did.

399
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:51,680
And I remember writing a letter to all of my aunt and uncles announcing my distancing

400
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,160
from them.

401
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:55,160
And that was a big deal.

402
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,080
So my father was one of 12.

403
00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,760
So it's a big family.

404
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:07,680
And so I wrote this letter to all of them saying, you know, I'm not on board, basically.

405
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:14,280
And a couple of them were like, you know, great, do your thing.

406
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:18,960
Other people were like, I'm very sad to hear that, you know, kind of typical thing.

407
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,520
But you know, it was that was that was OK.

408
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,560
I mean, I think at that time, at that time, it was still early stages.

409
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,400
You know, so it was like, oh, you know, he's just, you know, different a little bit.

410
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:35,520
I remember when I was graduating from Wheaton College, my first cousin was also there.

411
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,080
He and I were same year at Wheaton.

412
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:40,280
He's Doug and I'm David.

413
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,680
So we were next to each other in line in the graduation line.

414
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:48,720
And I remember, you know, talking to with my you know, we were talking with our our

415
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,680
our grandparents, our grandparents afterwards.

416
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:59,700
And I at that point had already gotten my letter to go to Princeton Seminary.

417
00:23:59,700 --> 00:24:04,480
My cousin was going to go to Dallas Seminary, Dallas Electrical Seminary, two polar opposite

418
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:05,480
schools.

419
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:06,480
Biggest differences.

420
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:07,480
Yeah.

421
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:08,480
Yeah.

422
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:09,480
My grandfather went to Dallas.

423
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:10,480
Many of my uncles went to Dallas.

424
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:15,000
Dallas is sort of a family school for us in a different sense.

425
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:20,060
And so I remember my grandmother coming up to me afterward at some point after my after

426
00:24:20,060 --> 00:24:26,240
graduation and saying, you know, there's still time to go to Dallas.

427
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,320
There's still time to like to redeem yourself.

428
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:35,560
And my cousin, Doug, when we were standing in line and graduation, he's like, you know,

429
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:36,560
Princeton needs some Christians.

430
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,200
It's good thing you're going there.

431
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:43,960
You know, there was a sense like, you know, like you're going into the dark side, you're

432
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:49,560
going to the you're going to them, you know, to to to the to the world of the pagans and

433
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,880
the liberals and the heathens.

434
00:24:52,880 --> 00:25:00,400
And but but, you know, you know, at that point, it was sort of like, oh, maybe we're losing

435
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:01,400
David.

436
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,400
You know, maybe David's lost to us.

437
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,480
And at that point, I was I was fine with that.

438
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:14,840
I knew that I needed to, you know, venture out into a new world of thought.

439
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:21,800
I couldn't stay wrapped up in just what I'd always heard and what I'd always believed.

440
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:30,120
And and I was ready to do just to blow open the doors and just, you know.

441
00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:32,680
Trot my own path away from my family, which is fine.

442
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,640
But what did you feel like for you?

443
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:43,560
For me, liberation, you know, for me, it was I mean, I was always intellectually curious.

444
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:48,760
And so for me, the deconstruction was a chance to explore.

445
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:49,760
It was like it was playtime.

446
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:51,360
You know, it was ready for me.

447
00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:52,360
It was playground.

448
00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:56,800
Like, did you go all the way and say anything in the world or was it sort of still within

449
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:58,480
the frame of Christianity?

450
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,080
Because I never lost any disconnect to Jesus ever.

451
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:08,960
I learned so much from Buddhism and Hinduism and Zoroastrianism.

452
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,400
All of them I've learned from.

453
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:12,400
What was your frame?

454
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:17,160
At that time, I was still operating within the realm of Christianity, certainly.

455
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:23,600
And I think even at that stage, still a fairly narrow conversation.

456
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,760
It hadn't blown that far open yet, but I was open to it.

457
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:28,040
I was ready for it.

458
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:33,120
You know, I was I was prepared to go wherever it led me.

459
00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:34,120
But but I do.

460
00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:37,960
So but here's the but the thing is, like I was one of the first things I was ready to

461
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:44,440
to go over on to change my mind on was on universalism because I so when I started at

462
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:54,600
Princeton Seminary in 2005, that fall, I began a blog or that year I began a blog called

463
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,840
the Fire and the Rose, which I did for a number of years.

464
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:03,360
And one of the first things I did my first semester at Princeton Seminary was start a

465
00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:06,760
blog series called Why I Am Why I Am a Universalist.

466
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:11,280
And so this is 2005 and 2006.

467
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,680
So it was it was a long blog series.

468
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:14,680
You know, what kind of went on and on.

469
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:19,800
It was like it was essentially a systematic theology that I was writing in the form of

470
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:25,200
a of a conversation about universalism, but in the mode of me kind of announcing to the

471
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,120
world, I'm a universalist.

472
00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:28,120
All right.

473
00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:35,240
And so kind of the next step, the next stage of my theological journey was just me saying

474
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,200
here's where I am theologically.

475
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:42,400
I'm definitely no longer with with my evangelical family and where I was.

476
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,280
And was that for you to make that intellectual?

477
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,400
I was just going to say this because you talked about this new playground, David.

478
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:56,200
People go through deconstruction and get devastated, suicidal, depressed.

479
00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:03,720
We had a guest on who was a Mormon who went theist and then full blown nihilistic.

480
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,680
And now she's kind of trying to settle on a positive side of atheism where she's offering

481
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:08,680
spiritual advice.

482
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,560
A lot of people you can hear post-Christian.

483
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:16,040
I mean, you're talking about a playground and a casting aside that the weights that

484
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:22,400
have left you being free is almost oh, my God, let's go, baby, as opposed to mama, help

485
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:23,400
me.

486
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:24,400
I'm despondent.

487
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,720
I need a therapy, et cetera, et cetera.

488
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:28,520
Help us understand that transition.

489
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,520
Yeah, I never.

490
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,320
Because you're from the Wheaton family, brother.

491
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:34,320
Come on.

492
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,320
Yes, it's true.

493
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,640
I think I'm lucky.

494
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:45,040
I'm lucky because I one grew up with a very healthy family life with parents who are very

495
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:46,880
supportive of me.

496
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:54,320
I didn't have any of the toxic baggage of feeling like I was a worthless person.

497
00:28:54,320 --> 00:29:00,640
Or being made to feel like I was a terrible person that needed religion, needed this specific

498
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,800
form of Christianity in order to be loved by God.

499
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:06,320
I never had any of that.

500
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,600
That was never part of my world.

501
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:13,440
So even though I called myself a fundamentalist, I didn't have the stereotypical fundamentalist

502
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,760
experience with religion and with Christianity.

503
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:25,200
For me, it was always an intellectual experience and an intellectual journey of curiosity.

504
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:30,800
When I was eight or nine years old, I used to take copious sermon notes on my church

505
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:35,240
flyer, Bulletin, because I wanted to and then I would talk to the pastor afterwards and

506
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:40,600
I'd grill him on his sermon to understand, what exactly did you mean by this passage

507
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:41,600
here?

508
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,840
Are you sure that's the right interpretation of that verse?

509
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,880
I was doing that from an early age.

510
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:51,960
It got to one point where my parents actually forced me to go to the children's school,

511
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:57,280
the children's church so that I wouldn't pester the pastor with questions and ask him too

512
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:02,360
many questions afterwards about the sermon.

513
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:03,360
That was just my personality.

514
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:10,560
So for me, theology and doctrine wasn't something about my worth as a person.

515
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:11,560
My worth wasn't at stake.

516
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,400
You have an amazing amount of freedom.

517
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:16,400
It's awesome.

518
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:17,400
Yeah, absolutely.

519
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,720
Total freedom with supportive parents.

520
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,280
For me, deconstruction was like, oh, I guess I'm just going to discover new things in the

521
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:26,280
world.

522
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:27,280
Yay, this is great.

523
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:33,720
There was none of the psychological damage that I had to work through.

524
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:34,720
Are you familiar with R.C.

525
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:35,720
Sproul?

526
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:36,720
Oh, sure.

527
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:37,720
Yeah, yeah.

528
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,240
So I don't know if you knew there was a huge debate.

529
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:41,240
I mean, R.C.

530
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:45,840
Sproul and John Piper were good friends, but the sad truth of the matter is, as a Pato

531
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,400
Baptist, he wouldn't have ever been allowed to take communion at Bethlehem Baptist.

532
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,760
And so there is that side of things.

533
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,400
And I get the feeling that your family is the kind of people who would look at that

534
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,440
and say, my God, aren't they not brothers in Christ in here?

535
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,080
Or would they actually put them?

536
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:04,680
My parents certainly would be, yes.

537
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,120
They would not understand why that was such a big deal.

538
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:12,600
That being said, though, the extended family absolutely would.

539
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:19,000
And my grandfather and my father would come to near blows over creationism issues.

540
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:25,520
And there's a lot of animosity there among family members, lots of fighting over these

541
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:30,680
issues between my uncles, my uncles who were pastors or missionaries and were really deeply

542
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:35,000
invested in the theological rightness of their beliefs.

543
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:40,320
They definitely had a lot going on in terms of fighting with other people about these

544
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:41,320
issues.

545
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,560
My grandfather was a very cantankerous, argumentative person.

546
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:52,480
And when my aunt and uncle, so his daughter and her husband, when they left to join the

547
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,720
Roman Catholic Church, that happened when I was in high school.

548
00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:02,760
My grandfather wrote his daughter a letter saying, you're on the road to hell.

549
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:04,440
And that was just what you did.

550
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:13,720
So I never understood that way of thinking or that attitude of holding their doctrines.

551
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:20,800
I remember when I went to Wheaton, my aunt and uncle who were Catholic lived nearby and

552
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:28,760
I would go visit them because I told them, I support you and I think it's important that

553
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,680
we embrace a wide spectrum of beliefs and ideas.

554
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:37,280
And even if I don't subscribe to Catholicism, I respect your beliefs.

555
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:43,160
And so I'm still friends with them and I'm closest with them in my family.

556
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:52,080
And so yes, I was sort of at a unique place within my larger family landscape.

557
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:56,760
I had a really unique experience and I'm grateful that my parents weren't invested in these

558
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,200
issues because it might have changed my trajectory.

559
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,100
No, it's solid.

560
00:33:01,100 --> 00:33:06,520
So I want to get to the book because I want to dive in and I want to answer one question

561
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,720
first.

562
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,560
What was the story leading up to writing this book?

563
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,720
It's a unique idea.

564
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:18,200
Well so the book sounds like it's a passion.

565
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:19,200
In a way it is.

566
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,480
I mean, I've written a lot on this topic now.

567
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,160
I say that because you said it was the most meaningful.

568
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:26,160
It was.

569
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:27,160
Yeah.

570
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:35,600
Well, so the story here is I published a book in 2016 called The God Who Saves and that

571
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:42,360
book was my first full length entry into the question of universalism.

572
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,840
That book, I really poured my heart into that book.

573
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,880
It's definitely more academic than I would like it to be.

574
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:58,600
I had a lot of people ask me to write more of a layman's version of it, but it's a full

575
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,720
scale systematic theology around universalism.

576
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:07,560
The book got me fired from my job because I was working for a Christian organization

577
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,120
that had a statement of faith.

578
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:17,480
So universalism they viewed as being outside the bounds and so I lost my job there.

579
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:26,600
That's why I'm here now in the Kansas City area where I work at KU now.

580
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,720
The issue of universalism, while it's very personal to me, it's personal in a lot of

581
00:34:30,720 --> 00:34:31,720
different ways.

582
00:34:31,720 --> 00:34:37,720
In one sense, I care about the topic because I do think that without universalism of some

583
00:34:37,720 --> 00:34:48,120
kind, the God that we believe in is indistinguishable from a devil in my view.

584
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:55,360
So there's something, some version of it I think has to be right.

585
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,200
But also it's personal to me just because it's changed my life in both positive and

586
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,280
negative ways.

587
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:07,800
The God Who Saves and my blog series from a decade earlier were both really important

588
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:08,800
for me.

589
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:15,920
They were both personal journeys of intellectual and theological spiritual exploration.

590
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:17,320
They got me a lot of attention.

591
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,760
I did a lot of speaking on this topic and it was really meaningful, but I also lost

592
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:23,520
my job and had to uproot my family.

593
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,360
So it was painful as well.

594
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:27,360
So anyway, I…

595
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:28,360
You've heard the price.

596
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,520
I think that's an important moment.

597
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:31,520
I did, yeah.

598
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,000
You paid the price for this.

599
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,400
It wasn't like it was some easy ride that you could ride on the coattails of your family.

600
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:37,400
You had to earn it.

601
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:44,920
Yeah, which is why I dedicate this book, the dedication reads, for all those who have proclaimed

602
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,760
a wider hope, even at the expense of their own livelihood.

603
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:48,760
That's awesome.

604
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:54,120
There are a number of people who have done that.

605
00:35:54,120 --> 00:36:01,040
So I put together this book proposal while I was still working at my previous job and

606
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,840
I pitched it to them initially to see if they would publish it.

607
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,680
They passed on it for very obvious reasons.

608
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,960
For our audience, what's the title, David?

609
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:17,920
Well, the current title is Varieties of Christian Universalism Exploring Four Views.

610
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:22,920
I should say that when I first pitched the book, it was going to be more of a multi-view

611
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:28,720
book about universalism that would include anti-universalist positions as well.

612
00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:33,760
So it was going to be a full dialogue between the pro and the con.

613
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:35,240
Yeah.

614
00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:38,680
And so the book was accepted at Baker.

615
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:44,040
Baker agreed to publish it, but then I lost my job.

616
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,760
And then a couple of people who had agreed to write for the book no longer wanted to

617
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:53,840
be associated with me or didn't want to be involved in the project for various reasons.

618
00:36:53,840 --> 00:37:00,840
And so I lost a couple of chapters from the book and kind of had to reconstruct what the

619
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:02,640
book was going to be.

620
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,080
I wasn't initially going to have a chapter in the volume.

621
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:10,080
I was just going to be the moderator for the dialogue.

622
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,720
And so I was sort of struggling to know what to do with the book.

623
00:37:12,720 --> 00:37:15,000
It languished for years.

624
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:20,280
Because I had the other three chapters in this book were written, I think they were

625
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:21,280
finished in 2017.

626
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,200
Did the book work in that direction?

627
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:26,200
Did you feel like it worked?

628
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:31,120
Yeah, I think it would have worked in its original version, but I'm glad we didn't

629
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:37,520
go that route because I think it's better as not being an argument book.

630
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:44,160
I'm glad it's not an argument about who's right, which I'm glad it's not that it's

631
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:49,520
I can see how the argument can almost get in the way of let's just focus on a really

632
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:50,520
great idea.

633
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:52,840
Yeah, the rebuttals come later.

634
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:54,320
But here's the idea.

635
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:55,320
Yes, exactly.

636
00:37:55,320 --> 00:38:00,200
Well, and it's different than David Bentley Hart, David Bentley Hart bringing universalism

637
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:01,200
to save the world.

638
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:06,640
And he's so acerbic and he's so like, like confrontational and in your face and belittling.

639
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:11,240
And I love that we're no this is the guys the point is universalism, right?

640
00:38:11,240 --> 00:38:17,320
I mean, it's going past the trials, the pain and mistakes and ultimately reconciling.

641
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:18,320
That's the whole point.

642
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,520
It's called reconciliation, right, David?

643
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:23,480
And he gets to do what he gets to do.

644
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:24,480
But thank you.

645
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:25,480
Right.

646
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:26,480
Also that book.

647
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,560
So Michael McClymons, The Devil's Redemption came out in 2018.

648
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,720
And then David Bentley Hart's book, you know, that came out in 2019.

649
00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:39,740
So that happened after my book was already under contract after most of these chapters

650
00:38:39,740 --> 00:38:41,360
have already been written.

651
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,880
And that was actually a big reason why I decided to shift away from that format, because you

652
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:52,800
had pro-con work already out there arguing about this issue.

653
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,520
And one of the things that McClymons book and also Hart's book in another way just made

654
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:01,680
me realize we need to have we need to be clear that there are different versions of universalism

655
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:02,840
on the table.

656
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:09,040
You know, Hart is I love Hart's book, but it's also being Hart, he kind of bulldozes

657
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:15,120
you and this is the only way to think this is the only position to have.

658
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:16,320
And I don't think that's the case.

659
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:17,680
I don't think that's the only position to have.

660
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:22,040
I think that in many respects, I quite agree with Hart.

661
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:27,280
But there are plenty of other ways to think about this issue, plenty of other theological

662
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:32,120
approaches to this topic that we should also listen to.

663
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:39,760
And so that's the spirit in which I tried to kind of refashion this volume and make

664
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:40,760
it work.

665
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:48,520
So Robin Perry, who's in the volume, convinced me to write a chapter as well that would represent

666
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,240
the view that I had written about in The God Who Saves.

667
00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:54,200
How did you feel about that?

668
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:55,200
I appreciated it.

669
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,800
And I think it was a good exercise for me because my own theology had shifted a bit

670
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:00,080
since The God Who Saves.

671
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:05,680
That was since then and now it's eight years and my theology has undergone some changes.

672
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:12,560
So the chapter in here is I think an improvement in some ways on my book.

673
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:17,640
And it was a good experience to work through those ideas another time.

674
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:19,720
So I appreciated that from Robin.

675
00:40:19,720 --> 00:40:20,720
Awesome.

676
00:40:20,720 --> 00:40:21,720
Yeah.

677
00:40:21,720 --> 00:40:22,720
So that's kind of where...

678
00:40:22,720 --> 00:40:25,520
Let's dive into your existential aspect of it.

679
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:33,480
And then we'll touch on each one, but give us yours because yours sounds the most unique.

680
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:34,480
It's the most unique.

681
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:35,480
Yeah.

682
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,280
And I'm sure if somebody like Hart or somebody would just say, you know, he's not part of

683
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:39,280
the conversation, which is fine.

684
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:40,280
The score is yours.

685
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:41,280
There's no rebuttal.

686
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:45,760
Yeah, there's no rebuttal right now.

687
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:49,480
So just a little bit more about my bio to understand this chapter and where I'm coming

688
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:57,320
from because in between my blog series and this book, I did a whole...

689
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:04,120
I did years and years of scholarship and publication on an existential theologian named Rudolf

690
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:05,440
Boltmann.

691
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:10,160
So Rudolf Boltmann is a German theologian, New Testament exegete, very famous back in

692
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,800
the 50s and 60s.

693
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,440
And I've devoted years of my life to understanding his work.

694
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:26,120
And one of the things that always troubled me about Boltmann is that he's not a universalist.

695
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:31,560
He doesn't think that there's a way to reconcile universalism with the existential claim of

696
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:33,400
the gospel.

697
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:41,600
For him, to be existential means we have to respect each person's individual existence

698
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:46,880
in the way in which we respond and follow Christ.

699
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,400
And there are people who are not going to respond, not going to follow Christ.

700
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:56,120
And therefore, there's no way to reconcile existentialism or an existential Christianity

701
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:57,880
and universalism.

702
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:03,480
Universalism speaks in these totalities, these grand totalizing visions, right?

703
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:08,040
And that's kind of antithetical to an existential approach to faith.

704
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:12,600
So what I set out to do in both my previous book and then in this chapter more specifically

705
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:21,080
is to set out an attempt to reconcile a universal salvation with a deep understanding and respect

706
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:25,520
for the fact that faith is a personal and individual experience.

707
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:29,880
And we can't lose sight of that.

708
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:38,280
And the way I brought those together was by using Dietrich Bonhoeffer's idea of unconscious

709
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:39,620
Christianity.

710
00:42:39,620 --> 00:42:47,720
So Bonhoeffer, the martyr who was killed in the Nazi prison, one of his lesser known

711
00:42:47,720 --> 00:42:53,680
ideas that he develops early in his life but then comes back to in his later prison writings

712
00:42:53,680 --> 00:43:01,320
is this idea of an unconscious Christianity, a Christianity of Matthew 25, a Christianity

713
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,240
of this kind of the faith of the child.

714
00:43:05,240 --> 00:43:13,680
He often talks about the infant who's baptized as having this kind of this true direct faith

715
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,960
in God that the faith of the adult doesn't quite have.

716
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:23,200
When you get to the adult stage, you have this more kind of reflective faith that sort

717
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:30,960
of grasps a hold of God and spirituality and tries to make it something for themselves.

718
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:38,040
Whereas the child, the infant, the one who's not reflective is just purely in the grip

719
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,320
of a reality outside of themselves.

720
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:45,040
Let me stop you real quick because science has a really good explanation of how that's

721
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:50,000
possible because until you're about nine, you have no prefrontal cortex.

722
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:54,200
A child like my grandson lives with me right now and I get to watch him.

723
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,200
A child literally is just a feeling object.

724
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:01,800
It gets the experience but has no capacity to judge it.

725
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:02,800
Judge.

726
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:03,800
Exactly.

727
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:08,600
To come online means you can now parse it and organize it and separate it.

728
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:12,840
That's the uniqueness of the naivete is you're just pure experience.

729
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:13,840
Pure awareness.

730
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:14,840
Yeah.

731
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:15,840
Pure observation.

732
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:16,840
I think that's spot on.

733
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:17,840
That's really helpful.

734
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:18,840
Yeah.

735
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:24,200
I took that idea from Bonhoeffer and just ran with it and said, what if we think about

736
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:34,520
faith in this level, in this way, what does that do to the question of salvation?

737
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:35,520
Bonhoeffer has a line.

738
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:41,040
He has this one line in one of his prison writings where he says, unconscious Christianity,

739
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:42,360
colon.

740
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:50,080
Maybe this is where we can go to for universalism or apocynosyces is the word he uses.

741
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:58,440
He has this throwaway line and I develop an entire work around that one line of Bonhoeffer.

742
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:02,360
What I'm trying to flesh out, and I don't think my approach is the only way to do this.

743
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:12,520
There's other ways I think you could develop this idea is to say, what if saving faith

744
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:23,000
is found primarily in this unconscious experience of being taken out of ourselves, moved outside

745
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:29,400
of ourselves, maybe encountering a reality of something outside of our ego that draws

746
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:34,920
us out of our egocentricity and moves us out towards others?

747
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:35,920
Yeah.

748
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:41,160
Now, that's a broad generalized description of it.

749
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:49,120
I think what I want to say is in Christianity, Christianity provides a more reflective articulation

750
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:57,520
of this idea of grace, of being drawn beyond ourselves towards by God.

751
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:03,080
It can provide an explanation for how that's possible and what that means.

752
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:16,000
But that at some deep fundamental level, the original primal version of salvation is this

753
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,240
experience of being taken out of ourselves.

754
00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:20,120
What did the disciples feel?

755
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,880
That's kind of what you're talking about.

756
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:28,320
It's not that Christianity is the only exclusive means by which that can happen.

757
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:34,400
It's just the way of articulating what is happening for everybody at all times.

758
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:38,360
Every person is experiencing this reality.

759
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:42,840
What I want to say is what Christianity provides, what Christian theology provides is a way

760
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:49,520
of describing this universal experience that happens throughout the world.

761
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:55,760
Christianity is articulating that in terms of a relationship to Christ.

762
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,400
We can articulate it in however we want to articulate it, whether it's the work of the

763
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:05,960
spirit or we can describe it in different doctrinal terms.

764
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:13,640
But the point is it's a description of a universal experience that happens everywhere.

765
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:19,360
What I'm trying to propose is that that's salvation happening right there.

766
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:24,480
That is the work of God, the redemptive work of God occurring existentially in each person's

767
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:31,480
life in an unconscious way, which then the church offers a conscious place to articulate

768
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:33,960
that unconscious experience.

769
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:39,280
Let me explain what I hear you saying and then you tell me if that's it.

770
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,320
The idea is essentially everyone is a Christian.

771
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:47,360
Everyone is saved, but only a few have the conscious understanding of it and awareness.

772
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,160
Is that what you're saying?

773
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:51,160
That's one way of saying it.

774
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:53,080
How would you say it?

775
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:54,880
You put the words.

776
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:55,880
That's totally fair.

777
00:47:55,880 --> 00:48:01,320
I think I'm trying to be careful of not describing other people as Christian unless they're conscious

778
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:02,320
of it.

779
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:03,320
You can say saved.

780
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:04,320
Yeah, yeah.

781
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:14,640
I think this is a challenge I've been trying to internalize because I think this is an

782
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:17,640
important issue.

783
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:22,440
I think within a Christian community, I could describe other people as unconscious Christians

784
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:29,280
as what Bionicle does, but I wouldn't tell them you are an unconscious Christian.

785
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:34,440
I like human being better because I think that's more original and more conscious to

786
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:39,080
God's original understanding of it, but I think that's still limiting.

787
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:44,840
I'm sort of reducing things down to I am because any words I put on are simply limiters.

788
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:51,080
They're not describers, but they're ultimate limiters.

789
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:58,840
How does one in your theology move from unconscious to conscious?

790
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:03,760
I want to be clear that I don't think anyone has to move from unconscious to conscious,

791
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:08,000
so I think it's not an expectation that must occur.

792
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:11,400
There's no hell that they're going to experience for not believing.

793
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:12,400
That's an important question.

794
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:13,400
Right, precisely.

795
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:14,400
Yeah.

796
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,400
Because they're already in.

797
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:19,640
Yeah, they're in in that sense.

798
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:21,680
The unconscious reality has already affected them.

799
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:25,080
Can you tell me though?

800
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:32,800
We studied a lot of things and we studied why in Johns Hopkins, a whole bunch of stage

801
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:38,400
four cancer victims who decided to undergo a psilocybin experiment taking a hero's dose

802
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:48,040
of mushrooms of five grams came out of that with a feeling of absolute transcendent.

803
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:50,280
It was as essentially existent in existence.

804
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:53,160
Their experience transcended everything else they've been told.

805
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,080
They felt a loving cosmic presence.

806
00:49:55,080 --> 00:50:00,040
They didn't convert to Christianity, but there was something that happened in their ego death,

807
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:04,640
in whatever happened that helped them not only recognize a loving cosmic force, but

808
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:06,720
also that they lost their fear of death.

809
00:50:06,720 --> 00:50:07,720
Absolutely.

810
00:50:07,720 --> 00:50:08,720
Same experience.

811
00:50:08,720 --> 00:50:09,720
Right.

812
00:50:09,720 --> 00:50:10,720
Yeah.

813
00:50:10,720 --> 00:50:12,160
But that took something.

814
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:13,640
It took a catalyst.

815
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:14,640
People meditate.

816
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:18,760
You've got the early mystics, Norwich.

817
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:20,160
You've got the contemplatives.

818
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:27,560
All these people have had some kinds of experience with the living God that nobody can take away

819
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:28,560
from them.

820
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,400
On their deathbeds or whatever, that's there.

821
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:34,120
I would still consider that a cosmic kind of thing.

822
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:41,880
How do you actually identify these group of people as having this unconscious Christianity

823
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:46,640
without having that relevant moment that actually helped them get there?

824
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:47,880
You understand what I'm trying to get at?

825
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:48,880
Yeah, I see what you're getting at.

826
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:53,240
I think those are all cases of what I would call some sort of consciousness, conscious

827
00:50:53,240 --> 00:50:57,200
religious, conscious transcendence.

828
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:01,640
I think those are all transitional stages where they've gone from the unconscious to

829
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,720
the conscious.

830
00:51:04,720 --> 00:51:11,840
I think that part of what I think the church ought to be, what it's largely not, but what

831
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:16,920
it ought to be is a place that helps people make that transition from the unconscious

832
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:18,920
to the conscious.

833
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:26,640
It illuminates for people, gives people a language and a vocabulary for the experiences

834
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:31,400
they're already having but don't have the lens to see.

835
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,840
The unconscious is the splinter in the mind's eye.

836
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:37,400
Morpheus is telling Neo something is driving him mad.

837
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:38,400
It's unconscious.

838
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,320
He doesn't know what it is.

839
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,960
That's when he breaks through and has that conscious existential experience of, holy

840
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:45,680
shit, I'm in the real world now.

841
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:46,680
That's it.

842
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:50,000
Something has been driving him unconsciously.

843
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:54,720
I think that that's where we have this idea even in Romans 2 where you can even say, hey,

844
00:51:54,720 --> 00:52:00,240
boys and girls, the poor people who are dying after getting slaughtered, who've never heard

845
00:52:00,240 --> 00:52:05,000
the voice of the word of God, they're going to be okay because God has written on their

846
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,760
hearts this almost natural kind of conscience.

847
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:10,640
I love where you're going with this.

848
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:14,520
That's exactly what I'm... Yeah.

849
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:18,960
Certainly many people have commented about this reality that even very conservative evangelicals

850
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:27,400
are quite ready to articulate the traces of transcendence that are all woven into everywhere.

851
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:31,200
I think the difference between my position and their position is that I'm ready to say

852
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:36,000
that those people are already encountering salvifically the actual God.

853
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:40,240
It's not as if those are just moments that you can then use to apologetically get them

854
00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:45,120
into a belief in a doctrine and go to church and then they're saved.

855
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:46,120
You tithe.

856
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:47,120
Make sure you tithe.

857
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:48,120
Exactly.

858
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:49,120
Right.

859
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:54,740
I think that's how... Those traces of transcendence typically are used apologetically as arguments

860
00:52:54,740 --> 00:53:01,120
to get people to then go to church, subscribe to their doctrine, and then they can have

861
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:02,120
the fullness of it.

862
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:03,120
Right?

863
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,040
Well, that's what Paul, the Romans, is saying that they're guilty because creation's already

864
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:09,020
expressed his goodness.

865
00:53:09,020 --> 00:53:12,440
That is their prerogative is to now go and be better.

866
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:13,440
You've been given this.

867
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:14,440
Right?

868
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:16,640
You've been shown evidence of what's going on.

869
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:17,640
Right?

870
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:18,640
Yeah.

871
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:19,640
Right.

872
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:20,640
David, here's the argument question.

873
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:24,520
I don't want to push too hard, but I think this is a simple one to go after.

874
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:29,240
What does the world do with Hitler in your theology?

875
00:53:29,240 --> 00:53:31,280
Is he in?

876
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:32,280
Yes.

877
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:34,280
He is, of course.

878
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:35,280
Yeah, absolutely.

879
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:36,280
No, I mean-

880
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:38,480
So it is fully inclusive?

881
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:40,480
It's fully inclusive.

882
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:41,480
No, no, no.

883
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:42,480
No one's out.

884
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:43,480
No, no, no.

885
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:44,480
Right.

886
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:51,840
But I do talk about this a little bit in the end of my chapter in the book because I do

887
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:57,440
think that one of the... It's very common, and of course you've already encountered this

888
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,760
because you're asking me this question, but it's very common for people to try to have

889
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:07,320
the slam dunk against universalism by using moments of real tragedy, real evil in the

890
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:13,240
world and say, look, this is why this can't be true.

891
00:54:13,240 --> 00:54:20,960
I think my problem with that approach, a whole line of questioning, is just that it assumes

892
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:29,640
that when the bad things in the world, that our understanding of God is to be the one

893
00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:33,600
who's going to deal with them.

894
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:39,320
The point of a God, the point of believing in God is to have this cosmic judge to then

895
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:46,440
ultimately basically bless me, who is of course in the right, and destroy them, who of course

896
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:47,440
are in the wrong.

897
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:48,440
Right?

898
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:52,120
It's easy to use somebody like Hitler and say, well, obviously he's the one in the wrong.

899
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:53,120
Right?

900
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:54,640
But it's... I think they use-

901
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:57,920
Well, it's simply an object lesson to say, is there an exception?

902
00:54:57,920 --> 00:54:58,920
Right.

903
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,000
Because if you have... Hitler's the tip of the spear.

904
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:02,000
Right, it is.

905
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:05,400
You can pull Hitler or any one of those guys.

906
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:06,760
Is this the exception?

907
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:07,960
Is there an exception?

908
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:11,080
And I think because that's the wrestling of the mind.

909
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:13,880
Is universalism really all in?

910
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:17,320
And that's what we wrestled with David, and that's kind of what, in your version, in your

911
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:19,400
view, it is completely all in.

912
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:20,400
Yeah, it is.

913
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:21,400
They're all in.

914
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:29,280
But I also think that the problems in the world that are very real, that we need to

915
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:30,560
take responsibility for them.

916
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:33,080
I mean, I think we as humans need to-

917
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:35,520
That's the adult approach, yes.

918
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:36,920
Right, yeah.

919
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:44,640
And not simply punt to God as the one who's going to assign all the bad stuff over here

920
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:46,720
and give us the good stuff here.

921
00:55:46,720 --> 00:55:52,720
I think that's where most of humanity just hasn't yet matured to a point of understanding

922
00:55:52,720 --> 00:56:02,880
that God isn't there to basically play referee for... That's a misuse, I think, abuse of

923
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:03,880
God.

924
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:08,320
Well, you can make a really good argument that God has been trying to tell us from the

925
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:13,160
beginning of scriptures, all scriptures, grow the fuck up.

926
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:20,440
It's like, come on, that's the point, is to grow up into love.

927
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:26,200
It's not rocket science, it's not bad for you, it's good for your health, mentally as

928
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:27,200
well.

929
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,160
Hey, there's grace, people.

930
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:34,880
I'm not going to hurt you, I'm not going to kill you, I'm not going to punish you, you're

931
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:36,440
going to punish yourself.

932
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:42,080
So stop doing that and grow up into love and realize, oh, you actually have value.

933
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:47,800
The best thing is universalism leads to a theology of love because it says, hey, we're

934
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:52,280
all in this together, there is no heaven and hell, there's just all of us together, figure

935
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:53,280
it out.

936
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:54,280
Yeah, absolutely.

937
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:55,280
That's right.

938
00:56:55,280 --> 00:57:00,120
Okay, so give us the next point of view.

939
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:04,320
Do you feel like you've closed, like you've given a good view?

940
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:09,000
I think that's a good summary of my position.

941
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:12,720
There's certainly more to unpack if we wanted to, but let me go on to some other ones.

942
00:57:12,720 --> 00:57:13,720
What about Robin Perry?

943
00:57:13,720 --> 00:57:20,360
Yeah, so Robin Perry, maybe I should pair Robin Perry with the ancient Christian position.

944
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:27,320
So part of what Marina Ludlow is doing in her chapter on patristic or early Christian

945
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:33,680
universalism is to highlight what makes them unique.

946
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:37,880
The patristic one and the evangelical ones are similar in a number of respects.

947
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:42,220
They both accept that there is a punishment after death.

948
00:57:42,220 --> 00:57:52,800
There is a realm, a hell-like state, a realm of purgation that happens beyond death.

949
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:56,560
The big difference, I think, well, there's a couple of differences, but one big difference

950
00:57:56,560 --> 00:58:02,760
between the patristic one and the evangelical one is just the conception of salvation itself.

951
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:10,720
The early Christians had a view of salvation more like a medical healing process.

952
00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:14,840
They used healing metaphors and they used education metaphors.

953
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:20,640
So it was a pedagogical hell or a medical hell, a hospital hell.

954
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:30,680
So hell was a place to maybe purge you of the bacteria that accumulated in your soul

955
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:31,680
throughout the life.

956
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:33,400
Antiseptic, if you would.

957
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:34,800
Antiseptic, precisely, yes.

958
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:41,840
Or it could also be described as a classroom where you were being reeducated, a reeducation

959
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:48,240
camp for those who had been so corrupted in their minds and practices and habits through

960
00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:55,200
their life in the world that they needed to be completely retaught how to be human, how

961
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:59,480
to be in the image of God.

962
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:03,000
Which I love about that is because it's very restorative.

963
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:04,000
It is.

964
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:06,720
Like I said, hey, let's not throw you baby out with bath water.

965
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:09,040
There's a human being here.

966
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:10,040
That's what I love about it.

967
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:11,040
Yes.

968
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:12,200
I don't think for some it's painful enough, though.

969
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:13,200
It seems like it's healing.

970
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:17,040
The Colossus is what I want to talk about, the pruning.

971
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:19,800
That's what Barkley uses.

972
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:22,240
Well, Ludlow's chapter does.

973
00:59:22,240 --> 00:59:23,720
She gets into the painful parts, too.

974
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:27,740
I mean, it was certainly for Gregory of Nyssa and Origen and others.

975
00:59:27,740 --> 00:59:34,440
There was no shortage of pain in the afterlife.

976
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:37,160
Sometimes they almost dwell a lot.

977
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:43,520
They go at length about how painful it's going to be.

978
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:50,440
They don't have any shortage of that, but it is all oriented toward a final redemption,

979
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:52,560
a final healing and restoration.

980
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:56,680
Or in the case of Gregory of Nyssa, though, it goes on and on forever.

981
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:59,080
It never ends.

982
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:04,000
For him, it's not necessarily painful, but it is an ongoing process in which you will

983
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:05,000
never arrive.

984
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:09,040
Oh, for Nyssa, it was not an ultimate reconciliation.

985
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:12,520
There is an ECT of sorts.

986
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:13,520
It's hard to describe.

987
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:21,720
I mean, it is an ultimate reconciliation, but the process of being purged or at least

988
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:26,400
conformed to Christ is a never-ending process.

989
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:28,960
It's an eternal journey.

990
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:31,800
His word for that is epictasis.

991
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:37,640
It's this ongoing process that will never be completed.

992
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:40,520
It's an eternal journey.

993
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:47,760
We are always going deeper and deeper and deeper into God for Gregory of Nyssa.

994
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:52,800
The other ones had a little more of a static conclusion or at least a finality to it, but

995
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:56,680
Nyssa is a bit more open-ended.

996
01:00:56,680 --> 01:01:00,240
That's more of the ancient version of universalism.

997
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:03,880
There's also other features of that, like the redemption of Satan, for instance, those

998
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:04,880
kinds of ideas.

999
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:05,880
Oh, that's right.

1000
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:06,880
Yeah, of course.

1001
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:07,880
The angels, all the fallen angels.

1002
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:10,720
It's a cosmic vision.

1003
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:15,320
The whole heavenly hosts and the infernal demonic forces, all of it is included.

1004
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:16,320
It's all part of that.

1005
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:20,280
It's not just human-centric.

1006
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:23,200
For the evangelical one, though, it is more human-focused.

1007
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:25,760
It's more about us, about people.

1008
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:28,760
It's less about- Who made the argument?

1009
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:29,760
Who made the- Or Perry.

1010
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:30,760
Perry did that.

1011
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:31,760
Yeah, Robin Perry.

1012
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:32,760
Yeah, Robin Perry did.

1013
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:33,760
Yeah.

1014
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:36,280
Now, he's not the originator of this idea.

1015
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:39,280
He's simply- He just put it together.

1016
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:40,520
He's put it together.

1017
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:45,920
What's great about his chapter in this volume is that he goes through the history of evangelical

1018
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:52,600
universalism and really unpacks the various people who have espoused some version of this.

1019
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:53,600
It's an old view.

1020
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:54,600
It goes back hundreds of years.

1021
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:55,600
Before George McDonald?

1022
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:58,600
Did it go back before- Before that, yes.

1023
01:01:58,600 --> 01:01:59,600
Yeah.

1024
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:00,600
Yeah.

1025
01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:01,600
Yeah.

1026
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:02,600
Yeah, back into the 1700s, even.

1027
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:03,600
Yeah.

1028
01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:04,600
It goes back a ways.

1029
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:05,600
Okay.

1030
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:06,600
Very cool.

1031
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:10,520
I think one of the distinguishing features of it is that there is a very clear heaven

1032
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:14,160
and hell.

1033
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:17,880
In order to be saved, you do have to have a personal decision of faith.

1034
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:23,440
It's a very evangelical view about faith as this personal commitment to Christ.

1035
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:29,720
That's the saving moment.

1036
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:38,480
The difference here is, for those who go to hell, hell is a place that is designed to

1037
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:42,760
lead people to make their decision of faith for Christ.

1038
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:44,800
It's like Earth.

1039
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:48,200
Yeah, in some way, right?

1040
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:49,720
Fair enough.

1041
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:51,400
Very fair.

1042
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:54,800
At some point, everyone will.

1043
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:58,680
That's the idea for Perry's vision.

1044
01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:05,620
There's less of this kind of purgative ongoing journey of education and healing.

1045
01:03:05,620 --> 01:03:11,680
It's more of this decision-based focus on salvation.

1046
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:17,200
Would you say that it's one of the things that I loved about David Artman is he gets

1047
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:20,240
the Calvinistic and Armenian on both sides.

1048
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:25,920
Grace is for all on the Armenian, and Grace saves completely on the Calvinist side.

1049
01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:27,920
He says there's both.

1050
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:32,160
Would you say that there is still, is that more of a free will kind of thing, or do you

1051
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:37,360
think that God is still actually the uncaused cause, the actual, he's doing the drawing

1052
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:39,800
to them ultimately in that regard?

1053
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:44,200
Yeah, for the evangelical position, I think it's sort of similar to Artman's.

1054
01:03:44,200 --> 01:03:48,920
It is trying to reconcile a bit of the Calvinists and a little bit of the Armenian.

1055
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:53,640
I think Robin Perry's evangelical approach probably falls more on the Armenian side on

1056
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:56,200
the issue of what is salvation.

1057
01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:59,600
It's not a divine decision of election.

1058
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:02,140
It's a personal decision of faith.

1059
01:04:02,140 --> 01:04:08,800
That being said, he is trying to show how elements of both Calvinism and Armenianism

1060
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:14,920
can be held together and that there's a way of kind of surpassing that divide.

1061
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:18,680
That's not so much in this chapter, but I think Thomas Talbot in his book is an example

1062
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:19,680
of that.

1063
01:04:19,680 --> 01:04:20,680
You might know his work.

1064
01:04:20,680 --> 01:04:22,680
Every knee shall bow, right?

1065
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:29,760
Yeah, I think he quotes the one day every tongue will confess to your God, one day every

1066
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:31,880
knee will bow, right?

1067
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:36,240
And not enforced obedience, but an actual acquiescence, an actual my Lord, my God kind

1068
01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:38,960
of thing, which is a great visual, right?

1069
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:39,960
Yes.

1070
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:41,960
David, was there a fourth?

1071
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:42,960
There's a fourth.

1072
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:47,840
So the fourth one is what's called a Bardian or post-Bardian universalism.

1073
01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:51,680
This is an attempt- I'm interested in this one because I love Bart.

1074
01:04:51,680 --> 01:04:52,680
Bart's great.

1075
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:59,120
I think what's interesting about Bart is that he's a reformed or broadly Calvinist theologian

1076
01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:01,880
working in that tradition.

1077
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:10,560
And what he does in the 1930s and 40s is to rethink election, divine election or predestination.

1078
01:05:10,560 --> 01:05:17,840
He comes to a very strong critique of Calvin on this point and the Calvinist tradition.

1079
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:24,600
And whereas the Calvinist tradition said that God elects individuals, you know, individuals

1080
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:28,480
for salvation, others for condemnation.

1081
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:35,400
Bart says election is first and foremost and really only about Jesus Christ.

1082
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:41,880
Jesus is the one who is the God who elects because he's God, but he's also the one who

1083
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:44,600
is elected as human.

1084
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:52,240
And so what Bart does is say election is really all about Jesus and only secondarily, it's

1085
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:58,360
all also about all humanity because all humanity is included in humanity and Jesus.

1086
01:05:58,360 --> 01:06:04,160
His humanity is our humanity and therefore his election is our election.

1087
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:05,160
Right?

1088
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:06,880
In other words, it's a one for all.

1089
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:07,880
It's a scapegoat.

1090
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:08,880
It's the one for all.

1091
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:12,400
You need the universal scapegoat.

1092
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:13,400
Here it is.

1093
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:14,760
I don't need to do it anymore.

1094
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:15,760
Is that what you're saying?

1095
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:16,760
In some ways.

1096
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:20,120
I mean, that's a René Girard way of describing it.

1097
01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:21,120
Yes.

1098
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:22,120
The scapegoat theory idea.

1099
01:06:22,120 --> 01:06:23,720
But yes, I mean, for him, yes.

1100
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:30,240
So he's the way that Bart puts it is Christ is the judge judged in our place.

1101
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:37,280
So the divine judge is also the one who is judged as human and he's done that for all

1102
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:38,280
on behalf of all.

1103
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:45,000
David, were you a part of any of the emerging church conversation or follow any of that?

1104
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:46,000
Yes, I was.

1105
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:47,000
I was.

1106
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:49,480
I was actually part of an emerging church when I was at Princeton.

1107
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:50,480
You were?

1108
01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:51,480
Yeah.

1109
01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:52,480
Wow.

1110
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:53,480
Oh, which one?

1111
01:06:53,480 --> 01:06:56,000
At that time, it's no longer around, but it was called the Well.

1112
01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:58,360
Yeah, I know the Well.

1113
01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:00,920
I was on the board of Emergent Village.

1114
01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:04,960
That's why I ask is that was sort of the beginning of deconstruction and challenging a lot of

1115
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:11,000
these ideas, at least for me, it was when it became kind of bigger news and the emergent

1116
01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:15,160
church, I think, gave people permission to deconstruct.

1117
01:07:15,160 --> 01:07:21,600
The conversations were these pods of people just saying, well, I'm gay, so can I get into

1118
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:22,600
heaven?

1119
01:07:22,600 --> 01:07:27,160
Yeah, very real conversations about what does it mean to be a human being and how does God

1120
01:07:27,160 --> 01:07:29,880
fit into that?

1121
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:35,480
That's when the wrapper came off for me and kind of really wrestling with the idea of

1122
01:07:35,480 --> 01:07:38,960
it.

1123
01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:43,160
You said it started around 2005 because mine started around 2008.

1124
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:49,360
Yeah, 2005, that's when I started my MDiv program at Princeton Seminary and that's when

1125
01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:52,520
I started my blog about universalism.

1126
01:07:52,520 --> 01:07:59,640
I came to Princeton basically already ready to say I'm a universalist.

1127
01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:00,760
I was just kind of on the cusp.

1128
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:05,600
I just wanted to read a little bit more and then say, okay, now I'm ready to go.

1129
01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:09,620
I just wanted to have a little bit more under my belt before I was ready to tackle it.

1130
01:08:09,620 --> 01:08:14,760
At that point, did you feel like you had the argument made in your head or you had the

1131
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:16,360
belief in your head?

1132
01:08:16,360 --> 01:08:22,240
Because for me, it was what I realized is that I believed it when I thought I had it

1133
01:08:22,240 --> 01:08:24,400
and then I realized, oh, God, I didn't know anything.

1134
01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:28,440
Then you learned more and then you realized, that's what David Arman, David Arman put

1135
01:08:28,440 --> 01:08:30,000
it all together for me.

1136
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:31,760
Did you have that at that time?

1137
01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:33,480
I had the belief.

1138
01:08:33,480 --> 01:08:38,240
I didn't quite have the argument and that's mainly because I hadn't read much theology

1139
01:08:38,240 --> 01:08:41,360
at all before I got to Princeton.

1140
01:08:41,360 --> 01:08:43,720
I wasn't ready to do it.

1141
01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:47,760
One of the things that I, when I read David Bentley Hart's book, for instance, Hart talks

1142
01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:56,440
about in the very beginning of his book, he talks about how he never really was intellectually

1143
01:08:56,440 --> 01:09:01,000
ever comfortable with the idea of hell from his childhood.

1144
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:05,080
I really resonated with that.

1145
01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:15,880
I was never a hard line believer in the traditional heaven hell doctrine growing up.

1146
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:25,200
For me, becoming an explicit outspoken universalist was not that much of a step for me.

1147
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:26,640
The belief was already there.

1148
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:29,000
I think it had been there for a long time.

1149
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:35,720
I just didn't have the freedom to say and articulate it until I was really and fully

1150
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:37,920
and truly outside the realm of evangelicalism.

1151
01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:41,720
I was at Princeton seminary where I could say whatever I wanted now.

1152
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:43,680
Did you like the freedom?

1153
01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:44,880
What was that?

1154
01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:46,280
Did you like the freedom there?

1155
01:09:46,280 --> 01:09:47,640
I loved the freedom there.

1156
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:51,640
It was great.

1157
01:09:51,640 --> 01:10:01,560
It was such a liberating experience for me to be surrounded by people who didn't care

1158
01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:06,360
where my theology was going because they were already there themselves or were doing some

1159
01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:07,960
other thing.

1160
01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:14,600
I could really develop myself without feeling constrained or pressured to go a certain way.

1161
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:17,320
The polemics are out the door.

1162
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:22,720
It's actually an open co-creation of ideas and alignment of things.

1163
01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:25,760
The stuff that doesn't really make a lot of sense, you just leave it by the side instead

1164
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:27,400
of decimate somebody.

1165
01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:31,840
I do believe that God bless David Artman.

1166
01:10:31,840 --> 01:10:32,840
He asks us these questions.

1167
01:10:32,840 --> 01:10:33,840
We were on his blog.

1168
01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:35,560
He's like, do you affirm this?

1169
01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:36,560
Okay, good.

1170
01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:37,560
Jonathan and Rich, do you check?

1171
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:38,560
Check.

1172
01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:39,560
Check.

1173
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:40,560
It was awesome.

1174
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:42,600
It was a 20 questions thing.

1175
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:43,800
I think that's going to be helpful.

1176
01:10:43,800 --> 01:10:47,920
There's going to be people on the apologist side that are going to need to have the, what

1177
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:50,920
do you call it, the case for Christ kind of guy, Lee Stobel.

1178
01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:52,720
Oh yeah, I have those books brought up.

1179
01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:55,120
Yeah, you're going to have to have that kind for certain.

1180
01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:58,320
Then you're going to have to have this general, hey, let's talk about the character of God

1181
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:04,560
and what the plan is and how we actually come together in this idea.

1182
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:07,160
That's where I think the most healthy kind of conversations come into play.

1183
01:11:07,160 --> 01:11:10,280
Then you start to build and you start to get different angles.

1184
01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:15,560
Here's the early church fathers and here's this kind of really philosophical strong foundation

1185
01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:16,560
for it.

1186
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:20,800
Over here, by the way, there's some pretty good scripture for it too in terms of where

1187
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:21,800
this is going.

1188
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:25,360
Anyway, yeah, this has been awesome.

1189
01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:30,640
David, when did you realize you could say it with comfort?

1190
01:11:30,640 --> 01:11:34,360
Well, universalism.

1191
01:11:34,360 --> 01:11:35,840
I mean, it really wasn't.

1192
01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:36,840
We're all going to heaven.

1193
01:11:36,840 --> 01:11:38,840
We're all going to be in the same place.

1194
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:41,000
I wasn't comfortable saying it.

1195
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:45,040
I wasn't comfortable saying it until I got to Princeton.

1196
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:56,000
I think I just needed to be out of Wheaton and also away from my family context.

1197
01:11:56,000 --> 01:12:04,680
I could be anonymous there for a bit and I think that really allowed me to speak freely

1198
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:05,680
for once.

1199
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:09,320
I think that was really what was the difference for me.

1200
01:12:09,320 --> 01:12:11,920
You got your MDiv or your…

1201
01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:16,040
I did my MDiv and then I did my PhD there as well.

1202
01:12:16,040 --> 01:12:17,640
I stayed on.

1203
01:12:17,640 --> 01:12:22,640
That wasn't the plan initially, but pretty quickly I learned that this is what I wanted

1204
01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:25,320
to do with my life.

1205
01:12:25,320 --> 01:12:28,400
Bruce McCormick was who I went there to study with.

1206
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:32,280
I had heard of him when I was at Wheaton.

1207
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:39,360
He came to Wheaton when I was there to speak for the theology conference at Wheaton College.

1208
01:12:39,360 --> 01:12:44,720
My professors at Wheaton said, you should go study with him.

1209
01:12:44,720 --> 01:12:48,560
I made that decision really without investigating it further.

1210
01:12:48,560 --> 01:12:52,720
I was like, okay, if that's what they said to do, I'll do it.

1211
01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:57,560
I hadn't read any of his works before I went to Princeton.

1212
01:12:57,560 --> 01:13:02,240
I just knew that he was the person to study with and I made the right choice.

1213
01:13:02,240 --> 01:13:08,520
He was a great advisor, great professor.

1214
01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:16,800
He gave me freedom to develop my theology, but also to do it in a rigorous way.

1215
01:13:16,800 --> 01:13:22,400
He forced me to be careful and rigorous in my thought process.

1216
01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:26,800
Speaking of rigorous in thought process, your book, would you say that it's easier to read

1217
01:13:26,800 --> 01:13:31,400
than David Bentley Hart's stuff and maybe even Carl Bart's epistle to the…

1218
01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:33,600
He did a commentary on the Romans, didn't he?

1219
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:34,600
Yes, he did.

1220
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:40,440
Let us let our audience know if it's pretty approachable and kind of winsome or is it

1221
01:13:40,440 --> 01:13:43,600
a little bit heady and have a caveat for that.

1222
01:13:43,600 --> 01:13:44,600
Yes.

1223
01:13:44,600 --> 01:13:45,600
The book is…

1224
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:48,720
There are elements of it that are a little bit heady, but overall it's written in a

1225
01:13:48,720 --> 01:13:51,200
winsome and accessible way.

1226
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:54,120
I've tried to make it as…

1227
01:13:54,120 --> 01:14:01,360
It's probably at an undergraduate level, maybe a slightly advanced undergraduate level,

1228
01:14:01,360 --> 01:14:03,440
but not too advanced.

1229
01:14:03,440 --> 01:14:06,440
But certainly that doesn't require you to have a degree in theology to…

1230
01:14:06,440 --> 01:14:13,400
David, let me ask you a different way because the content of the book is really perspectives.

1231
01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:16,200
Why should someone…

1232
01:14:16,200 --> 01:14:21,000
Sally living in Cleveland, why should she care about this idea?

1233
01:14:21,000 --> 01:14:24,480
Because you'd spent a long time writing this book.

1234
01:14:24,480 --> 01:14:29,120
Why do you think it was valuable for someone like her?

1235
01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:33,320
I think the question of salvation is at the heart of the faith.

1236
01:14:33,320 --> 01:14:43,520
It's at the heart of Christianity and it touches on things at a very deep, kind of

1237
01:14:43,520 --> 01:14:46,760
almost primal level.

1238
01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:53,760
Because fundamentally what we want to know is, is our God a loving God?

1239
01:14:53,760 --> 01:15:00,320
Is the God that we worship a God worth worshipping?

1240
01:15:00,320 --> 01:15:09,000
At the root of everything we do, we want to know that that's true.

1241
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:10,880
This question, we can't escape it.

1242
01:15:10,880 --> 01:15:15,680
We can't escape this issue of, is our God a good God?

1243
01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:19,640
Is the God of Christianity a good, just and loving God?

1244
01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:27,680
Now certainly people are going to disagree on what that means to be just, to be loving.

1245
01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:29,920
I think that's okay.

1246
01:15:29,920 --> 01:15:32,600
I think disagreement is fine and healthy.

1247
01:15:32,600 --> 01:15:38,320
I think the reason why this book is hopefully helpful is to show that there's a lot of

1248
01:15:38,320 --> 01:15:45,360
people who I know who are asking, like, I really want to know that my Buddhist neighbor

1249
01:15:45,360 --> 01:15:52,440
is going to be with God for eternity, or I really want to know that my brother-in-law

1250
01:15:52,440 --> 01:16:00,120
who left faith and is now atheist is going to be held by God for eternity in God's love.

1251
01:16:00,120 --> 01:16:02,680
I want to know that.

1252
01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:03,680
They want to know.

1253
01:16:03,680 --> 01:16:04,680
They want to say it.

1254
01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:06,800
They want to believe it, but they don't know that they can.

1255
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:08,600
They don't know how.

1256
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:15,440
I think this book is offering people a vision for Christianity that shows you, yes, this

1257
01:16:15,440 --> 01:16:18,360
is possible.

1258
01:16:18,360 --> 01:16:26,240
Christianity is a vast and complex and beautiful family of ideas and beliefs.

1259
01:16:26,240 --> 01:16:32,520
There's not just one Christianity that you either, if you have it or you don't, right?

1260
01:16:32,520 --> 01:16:40,640
Christianity is a huge family of ideas, and there's a place within it for somebody to

1261
01:16:40,640 --> 01:16:43,240
say everyone is saved.

1262
01:16:43,240 --> 01:16:46,800
Everyone is held in God's grace.

1263
01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:54,520
You don't have to wrestle with this tension of trying to square a circle.

1264
01:16:54,520 --> 01:17:01,760
These things can be held together, and here are a few different ways that it can be.

1265
01:17:01,760 --> 01:17:07,440
Final question, and Rich, I'll let you ask one more.

1266
01:17:07,440 --> 01:17:13,000
How did it change your life to step into that freedom and then write a book about it, which

1267
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:17,920
is kind of like saying, okay, here's a bullhorn of what I believe, but it's a very powerful

1268
01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:18,920
message.

1269
01:17:18,920 --> 01:17:19,920
How did it change your life?

1270
01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:29,000
Well, losing my job was a negative way that changed my life.

1271
01:17:29,000 --> 01:17:32,240
I mean, on the whole, though- You think you could have fit in that culture

1272
01:17:32,240 --> 01:17:33,240
for a long time?

1273
01:17:33,240 --> 01:17:34,240
Sorry?

1274
01:17:34,240 --> 01:17:35,240
Oh, could I fit?

1275
01:17:35,240 --> 01:17:36,240
That's a good question.

1276
01:17:36,240 --> 01:17:39,240
I don't know if I could have.

1277
01:17:39,240 --> 01:17:40,240
I couldn't.

1278
01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:42,640
I had to step out, yeah.

1279
01:17:42,640 --> 01:17:43,640
Yeah.

1280
01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:45,640
I'm glad not to be there, and I'm glad to be where I am.

1281
01:17:45,640 --> 01:17:48,480
I mean, it was the right thing for me.

1282
01:17:48,480 --> 01:17:49,960
It was just a very painful thing.

1283
01:17:49,960 --> 01:17:50,960
Yeah, and it was painful.

1284
01:17:50,960 --> 01:17:51,960
Yeah.

1285
01:17:51,960 --> 01:17:52,960
Yeah.

1286
01:17:52,960 --> 01:17:53,960
Sometimes it's hard.

1287
01:17:53,960 --> 01:17:54,960
Yeah.

1288
01:17:54,960 --> 01:17:56,680
It's part of the growth process.

1289
01:17:56,680 --> 01:18:02,880
Because you went through the pain, and what did you get out of it?

1290
01:18:02,880 --> 01:18:07,600
What I got out of it was a sense of solidarity with those who have also lost their jobs and

1291
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:12,960
lost their positions for their convictions.

1292
01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:16,360
Peter Enns was somebody who I had known when I was at Princeton.

1293
01:18:16,360 --> 01:18:21,760
He had lost his job at Westminster Seminary while I was at Princeton.

1294
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:23,080
He used to come up to Princeton a lot.

1295
01:18:23,080 --> 01:18:24,080
We would talk sometimes.

1296
01:18:24,080 --> 01:18:30,280
When that happened, and then I've had other friends of mine who lost their jobs.

1297
01:18:30,280 --> 01:18:33,800
The philosophy professor introduced me to Augustine, who I told you about.

1298
01:18:33,800 --> 01:18:38,240
He lost his job at Wheaton College for becoming Catholic when I was there as a student.

1299
01:18:38,240 --> 01:18:42,880
There have been a number of people in my life who had been forced out of their positions

1300
01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:51,480
and kind of exiled from the communities in which they were establishing themselves.

1301
01:18:51,480 --> 01:18:57,720
That experience losing my job was certainly a life-changing moment for me in terms of

1302
01:18:57,720 --> 01:19:01,920
coming to grips with that and realizing what all that involved.

1303
01:19:01,920 --> 01:19:06,400
I don't want to dwell on that too much.

1304
01:19:06,400 --> 01:19:11,200
I think that universalism is by and large a very positive thing for me.

1305
01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:14,680
It's not all about my experience, but it's really more about-

1306
01:19:14,680 --> 01:19:17,000
No, but I meant what is it?

1307
01:19:17,000 --> 01:19:23,760
I think what I'm asking is, you went through the pain of declaring, I am a universalist.

1308
01:19:23,760 --> 01:19:31,360
What was the value of holding onto that experience, of holding onto a universal faith that says,

1309
01:19:31,360 --> 01:19:35,600
hey, we're all of the same cloth here?

1310
01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:37,600
I think training and empathy.

1311
01:19:37,600 --> 01:19:48,480
I think training a vision to see others as already saved, as already in God's grace.

1312
01:19:48,480 --> 01:19:54,760
Learning not to see the world in terms of an us and them dichotomy between the rejected

1313
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:56,960
and the redeemed.

1314
01:19:56,960 --> 01:20:03,700
I think that's part of the pernicious legacy of the doctrine of hell has been to cultivate

1315
01:20:03,700 --> 01:20:10,080
a vision of the world in which there's them and then there's us.

1316
01:20:10,080 --> 01:20:16,160
That line of divide is between the good and the evil, between the lost and the saved.

1317
01:20:16,160 --> 01:20:20,960
That vision of the world, it can be so toxic, it can be so damaging.

1318
01:20:20,960 --> 01:20:26,400
It has tendrils that go out into all kinds of other areas, ethics and politics and all

1319
01:20:26,400 --> 01:20:27,400
the rest.

1320
01:20:27,400 --> 01:20:34,760
What I think universalism has done for me and for others and what it still does is to

1321
01:20:34,760 --> 01:20:45,200
cultivate an alternative way of being in the world, to train me and to see everyone as

1322
01:20:45,200 --> 01:20:48,960
connected to each other and to God.

1323
01:20:48,960 --> 01:20:49,960
Love it.

1324
01:20:49,960 --> 01:20:53,160
All right, I got an easy one.

1325
01:20:53,160 --> 01:20:54,160
Was C.S.

1326
01:20:54,160 --> 01:20:55,160
Lewis a leaky universalist?

1327
01:20:55,160 --> 01:21:00,000
Sure.

1328
01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:04,320
Lewis was a very important part of my life as well, I should say.

1329
01:21:04,320 --> 01:21:10,120
I worked at the C.S. Lewis archives at Wheaton College my entire time I was there.

1330
01:21:10,120 --> 01:21:14,480
I was the student editor for the C.S. Lewis journal that they produced called Seven at

1331
01:21:14,480 --> 01:21:16,840
the Marion Wade Center.

1332
01:21:16,840 --> 01:21:19,280
I was deeply involved.

1333
01:21:19,280 --> 01:21:25,240
I went on a C.S. Lewis trip to Oxford as part of the Wheaton College as a student there.

1334
01:21:25,240 --> 01:21:27,840
I spent a summer in Oxford and went to the Kilns.

1335
01:21:27,840 --> 01:21:33,640
Did you like his theology or writings?

1336
01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:38,920
At that point it was more his writings, his fiction, especially until we have faces and

1337
01:21:38,920 --> 01:21:39,920
those works.

1338
01:21:39,920 --> 01:21:44,680
But The Great Divorce was a beautiful book.

1339
01:21:44,680 --> 01:21:50,000
It was a pivotal moment for me to read that work and really ponder it.

1340
01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:54,000
It did lead me to read George MacDonald, who I read also.

1341
01:21:54,000 --> 01:21:56,120
A mentor of C.S. Lewis.

1342
01:21:56,120 --> 01:22:00,560
I loved his work, Red Fantasies and other works.

1343
01:22:00,560 --> 01:22:02,440
Lewis was important for me, absolutely.

1344
01:22:02,440 --> 01:22:07,400
I do think he's much closer to a universalist than the evangelicals want him to be.

1345
01:22:07,400 --> 01:22:08,920
A hundred percent.

1346
01:22:08,920 --> 01:22:12,720
When you first said The Fire and the Rose as your blog, I'm thinking of the child and

1347
01:22:12,720 --> 01:22:13,720
the egg.

1348
01:22:13,720 --> 01:22:17,080
I'm just thinking, okay, is this the Inklings?

1349
01:22:17,080 --> 01:22:19,760
Are we talking Tolkien and Lewis?

1350
01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:22,640
It's a line from T.S. Eliot's Four Quartets, actually.

1351
01:22:22,640 --> 01:22:24,360
Okay, there you go.

1352
01:22:24,360 --> 01:22:26,440
It's definitely in the same vicinity, though.

1353
01:22:26,440 --> 01:22:28,200
It's in the same realm, for sure.

1354
01:22:28,200 --> 01:22:29,200
I love it.

1355
01:22:29,200 --> 01:22:32,120
I can't wait to dive into the book.

1356
01:22:32,120 --> 01:22:35,000
I can't wait to hear more and chat more about you.

1357
01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:41,120
I think that we're hearing from David Artman that he's really trying to get an actual

1358
01:22:41,120 --> 01:22:45,800
kind of a conference together that's going to get a meeting of the minds together.

1359
01:22:45,800 --> 01:22:50,200
There's nothing like Big Ten Christianity that we would have seen with Brian McLaren

1360
01:22:50,200 --> 01:22:51,200
days and what do you call it?

1361
01:22:51,200 --> 01:22:52,200
The wild goose?

1362
01:22:52,200 --> 01:22:54,360
Yeah, sure, wild goose.

1363
01:22:54,360 --> 01:22:58,200
But maybe a smaller, like a microcosm of some of those bigger things, but it would be a

1364
01:22:58,200 --> 01:23:04,240
great thing to get a little bit more visibility and some great speakers and some people attending.

1365
01:23:04,240 --> 01:23:05,240
It seems like somebody could be on the horizon.

1366
01:23:05,240 --> 01:23:06,240
It would be a great thing.

1367
01:23:06,240 --> 01:23:07,720
It should bring a lot of people to it.

1368
01:23:07,720 --> 01:23:09,880
David, thank you very much for joining us.

1369
01:23:09,880 --> 01:23:11,840
This has been an absolutely wonderful conversation.

1370
01:23:11,840 --> 01:23:13,800
Thank you so much for having me.

1371
01:23:13,800 --> 01:23:14,800
It's wonderful.

1372
01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:15,800
Thank you.

1373
01:23:15,800 --> 01:23:16,800
Absolutely.

1374
01:23:16,800 --> 01:23:17,800
All right, everybody.

1375
01:23:17,800 --> 01:23:18,800
Thank you for joining us.

1376
01:23:18,800 --> 01:23:21,000
This is again, every week is just so much fun.

1377
01:23:21,000 --> 01:23:22,080
This is going to be an incredible.

1378
01:23:22,080 --> 01:23:24,760
This is our third this week and it's been absolutely incredible.

1379
01:23:24,760 --> 01:23:25,960
Hope you enjoy them.

1380
01:23:25,960 --> 01:23:31,000
Please comment, review, let us know, send us email and let us know what you'd like us

1381
01:23:31,000 --> 01:23:34,640
to talk about or if you have a guest you'd recommend, please send them.

1382
01:23:34,640 --> 01:23:36,760
They're so much fun when you do that.

1383
01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:40,080
So have an awesome week weekend, everybody.

1384
01:23:40,080 --> 01:24:09,480
It's Friday here and much love, everybody.