Welcome to Living in the Matrix. I'm Jonathan and I'm left of center.
And I'm Rich and I tend to lean a little bit more to the right. But the bottom line is,
is together we try to look for the balance of what it means to be human in today's world.
So let's get started. Welcome everybody to Living in the Matrix. I'm Jonathan. Say hello, Rich.
Hey everybody. This is Rich Goulet and this is our second podcast this week. So we're excited to be
here for doing a do for the for the same week and if not one more on next Friday. Yeah, it's it's
exciting. This podcast has grown substantially. Love the guest invites, love the comments. Please
feel free to review us. We're also on YouTube. So if you want to watch the video and but today
we have a guest, Klebern, who is someone I found on Instagram and I essentially look for people
that I want to vibe with and this guy had like bright lights all over it because that he talked
about. We live in a game which is essentially very close to the context of living in the matrix that
we started with. So welcome Klebern. It's a pleasure to have you. Thank you guys for inviting me. I'm
excited to pick each other's brains a little bit. Awesome. So unpack for me and our audience this
idea that you communicated because it's very much central to what we have started with living in the
matrix of we're living in a game. What did you mean by that? Well, the question I was asked was if
if life is a game, how do you play it? That was sort of the theme of that podcast. The name of it
was the the human game and how to play it by Nick Zai. But effectively I was trying to tie in a
couple of concepts where theology and quantum physics meet and to try to make that simple to
digest is not always easy because this can be a very broad concept. But the word matrix is
popularized from the movie The Matrix. So we start immediately putting things in the framework of a
game or a digital version of reality. But the word matrix first originated in the Bible.
You guys may have even known this in the Old Testament. But the first place where
our language has used the word matrix was in the Bible and the framework that that word used was
to describe a womb. So you could look at it. Yeah, it was used. It was describing a womb
and a baby coming out of it. What's the verse? What's the Hebrew for that? Is it like Hebrew?
Are we talking about? I gotta grab my notes now to check this out. This is taking a minute. Please
edit this part out. No, absolutely. Okay. Okay. Give me one second. I keep a bunch of notes
because I can't in my mind catalog the verse, but I've got it. I just totally geeked out because
that is something I have never heard and I love it. I just totally love it. God bless the Wachowski
brothers. Even though we're still on off peak here. I mean, they brought in Christianity,
Buddhism, all science and technology all in the matrix. There's so many different themes going on
with Nebuchadnezzar and with Trinity. And so they were onto something for sure. What they remind me
of is they remind me of the guy we had on lonely stoner, Andrew, that they call bullshit on a lot
of stuff. Like they kind of ask, okay, what does the science teach us? And that's why,
you know, it's like our narrow frames wants to stay in these narrow channels. Go ahead,
Cleo. The reason we want to stay in these narrow channels, I mean, we do, right? Like the nature
of all of reality that exists beyond our five human senses, right? Like a lot of people still
think they are their bodies. So it's awfully taxing to start getting your mind around the
fact that there's a whole big reality that is scientifically verifiably there beyond the light
and sound wavelength frequencies that our eyes pick up. There's a lot happening. So us as humans
at this time are kind of getting a greater capacity of being able to be aware of, comfortable with,
and interact with the rest of that reality. The people in the past who were able to do this could
do miracles and things like that. So it was shocking for everybody else around. But the word
matrix first appeared in Numbers 18, 15, everything that opened the matrix in all flesh, which they
bring into the Lord, whether it be men or beasts shall be thine. Oh, wow. So one, a biblical way
to look at what that might have meant is that this human experience, this entire human history of
consciousness evolution is a womb of cells forming together to birth something new.
That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it in the modern times in a digital reference
and a parable that makes sense in our digital age. So the world being a game, this is sort of also
where theology and quantum physics need to shake hands and find the agreement that people thousands
of years ago just didn't have the language to describe the way we can now. But when you are
able to zoom into an atom close enough, you start to see a couple of electrons, but mostly empty
space, right? 99.999% empty space. It's five or seven nines. It's huge. It's huge. And then when
you think about the universe, right? Every now and then there's a star or a planet, but it's a lot of
empty space. So an atom and the universe and the cells in our bodies, and you start connecting the
dots where there's a lot of things that are the same folding in on themselves and repetitive in
that sort of nature. So the fact that our reality is here, it obeys certain rules, but it's also,
there's nothing connecting everything, right? There's just a lot of empty space in our bodies,
in our material world, but also everything is connected where quantum theory, quantum
entanglement talks about how if I say something here, the vibrations of my word will affect
a star on the opposite end of the universe in real time. So things like that, when you look at
things like the double slit experiment, which documents that particles not observed do not
behave the way they do when they are observed. So reality depends on our consciousness participating
in its manifestation. So to that degree, wrapping your head around reality as a game
is moving in the right direction. But where we are needing to get collectively is that it is a game
that all of our individual consciousnesses are co-creating with the divine. And the reason there's
so much chaos in the world is because most people aren't even aware that their consciousness is
creating reality. So their attention is just all over the place. So the more people can combine
their attention onto a thing, the faster and more evident it shows up. That's sort of why the Christ
said, where two or more gathered in my name, there I am too. If several people were to sit
in a Christ consciousness state of mind, or at least a common goal, especially a goal that is
of love or for love, those things will start to show up much, much faster. Wow. I'd love to flesh
that out a little bit more because you also talked in another podcast about the Magi coming and
visiting Christ and very likely when he was in his early stages, might've done some training.
So first, I want to talk about a little bit about your theology and what that looks like.
On this podcast, we've had a lot of people, people moving from Mormonism to atheism and or
nihilism in between and settling with there. There's a lot of people on this podcast who
believe that we are God. God and Jesus wants us to be him, not just in terms of the fullness you
might see in the book of Ephesians or be like him or like a mini Christ, but rather that we have
the same nature that Christ has that we can be God. So there's a lot of that going back and forth.
What's your view on and what kind of theology are you most leaning towards? And then let's
pivot that and go into that second part about that little story about Jesus and where he might have
done some training in that view you had on an earlier interview. Okay. So to start off first,
this would be to whoever hears this, a lot of people, especially when they're earlier
in their theological development or they're just starting to feel comfortable asking questions
that sort of test the framework that they've been raised in everything that isn't what you've
originally heard. You almost want to say blasphemy and shut it down, right? So to whoever's hearing
this or not, or however somebody may take this, I would say that Jesus, Yeshua, Isis, however,
whichever language you would pronounce the name of that man that lived was the Christ. And he is
the one who at this time, while I'm alive and the information I had, he is the Christ, my savior,
who was the beacon, which is the world's beacon. There's a reason why our calendar says it's the
year 2023. And if you go backwards, he wasn't born at year zero, right? Like we started our calendar
a certain way and from where he was, it either goes up into the future or it goes up into the past.
But this is where we start. And from here, truth is revealed if you just press in long enough.
So Jesus Christ, Yeshua, Isis, however people want to say that name, Yahweh, whichever name,
but everybody's got an idea that there was this guy. And that is my guy. That is my
guide, my savior, who I have followed as far as religious or spiritual pursuits. And anytime I
get new information, that's where I go back to check. To make sure I'm not like wandering off
into a full delusion up to a certain point. And then you start being invited into spiritual
communion, into contact, if you will, or whatever, spiritual communion with information outside of
other folks. Got it. Yeah. So let me ask a quick question then, Rich. I want you to ask that tangent
question because I thought, or the middle ground, because I actually read about that today and I
wanted to dive in if you didn't. But what is your view of, I think back to Rich's first question,
of God? Is God a separate entity or is God part of your entity?
To understand how to frame that, first you need to know who are you? Who am I? Am I this set of eyes
and this physical body and these seven trillion cells that make up my flesh and blood and bones?
Am I the voice in my head? Am I the one listening to the voice in my head? Am I all of those things,
which are also separate things, but they're all working in unison? So this is why the Trinity
confuses people and people who don't have the patience to sit and try to wrap their head around
a difficult concept will immediately dismiss it and say, well, you can't be God and the Holy Spirit
and a dude all at one time. You know what I mean? But you already are. But you already are. You are
the consciousness in this that's also outdoing things and we are bringing things from outside of
us into our consciousness, into our awareness, and we turn it into reality all the time. We just,
some stuff, we don't chalk it up as to how miraculous it is. But right now we're talking
to each other from three different total locations sharing video and sound. And you know what I mean?
If this was 500 years ago and somebody saw this, it would blow their mind. They would think it was
either witchcraft or a miracle or whatever. So what looks like a miracle is just based on how
comfortable you are with the technology that's being presented in that moment. And what God is,
is he a separate entity or is he one of us? It's both. To be at the God level, the all level of
consciousness is to understand and be fully looking through the eyes, eyes of every single
piece of creation that can exist or that can be imagined. But also as the aspect of God looking
through my eyes, like I have to perceive a separation between me and you and you in order
for there to be any opportunity to have this refining experience, this consciousness evolution
that's taking place. I just think that, you know, this is why we have these conversations,
because it's brilliant, but also can be confusing. There's this one scene in Westworld, which is
obviously a Michael Crichton original idea. My goodness, I think he could also actually
project if you could look at some of his writings, but this guy who was, who was, it was just Jesse
Pinkman in Breaking Bad. I forgot his name, but he goes, am I me? Because a lot of these people
had been re-downloaded into their brain, right? So they had a new skin and they had their
consciousness there, but they still didn't even know what was up. So going back to where you are,
what's interesting is if you can appreciate the awe of the world and look at it with pure observation
in my mind, and you could have that pure joy of just being, of ontology, I could see where
you could be in that same level playing field with God and be co-union with that consciousness,
right? In the terms of that consciousness, I think that what people in power want to have,
and people who are maybe still maturing on a journey like myself, I still think that ontologically,
I'm not God, that he is still transcendent, that he has the abilities, that least we've prescribed
to him over the millennia of omniscience, of ubiquity, of, you know, a variety of other things,
including foreknowledge, which I don't aspire to have or think I have, right? And so in that regard,
I guess what I'm trying to get at is, are there places where you would agree that we are different
from God if we're not the same with him on that level of consciousness you just described?
Right. That's exactly what I am saying. So the essence of God, the spirit of God,
that's referred to like when the Bible talks about how God poured man from clay,
and then he breathed the breath of life into man, right? So we have a functioning clump of cells
that can run on autopilot. But if I don't get another breath within the next two minutes,
I'm done. So the first most important thing I need is that exchange that reminds me,
which even though in Psalm 81, where God says, have I not said ye are gods, but you shall die
like men. So we are the sons and daughters of the Most High. We are being trained and groomed into,
you could call it ascension or higher power or becoming Christ-like. But we must be trained and
we must be initiated, if you will, and refined because an uninitiated person cannot be trusted
with the level of gifting and power that Jesus Christ had or demonstrated. The reason why is
because if I woke up tomorrow and I thought, why don't I just see if I can walk on water?
And I did it. What would I do with that ability? How would I use that to serve the collective?
Or would I use it to serve my ego? Or you know what I mean? Or if I was anywhere off of the total
highest vibration of love, the lower you go, the less you can be trusted with higher spiritual power.
So this womb that we're in, this consciousness evolution that's taking place is refining all of
us, which you could view each individual as a cell within the body of God that's serving a purpose.
So another way to look at that is God above us 100%. At the level of all, at the level of God
awareness, all is seen and it's outside of time. So time doesn't have the same concept, but when God
is breathing life into you and experiencing the life of you, now that sort of gives it context
because it's watching your experience in a slowed down pace, if you will. But just like you wouldn't
ask, like if we could call it an organ, but even any cell in my body, like is my heart me? Am I more
or am I less? Well, I can't live without it and it's going to keep doing its thing regardless of
what my conscious is thinking to some degree. So that's sort of what I think. We are made by
the creator. We are animated by the creator, but we are existing as co-creators because we're being
born. We're being grown in the womb, in the matrix. So let me ask a clarifying question because this
is the stuff Rich and I talk about on this podcast all along. So there's an idea of distance that
historically, especially, did you grow up evangelical? I wouldn't know how to answer that.
I grew up in a small Texas town in the 80s. So pre-internet small town Bible belt.
Well, you can. Okay, so I get that framework. In that framework, there is God and then there is us
and the two shall not meet. Grace enacts allowing the human being to come into that God world, but
they're never together. They're never one. Where is your theology in terms of that separateness?
Is it we are one or we are two distinctly different? Well, that's also like back to the
question, was Jesus God or was he a man? Well, Jesus said, I am. Yeah. What did he say? What
did he say he is? Can you say I am? I do say that is my, that's my, that's my bio, I guess,
on my social media. Yeah. And that's the distinction that I always want to make is that
the consciousness, the Christ consciousness is of I am that your soul is of God. Yeah. And there is
no separation, none whatsoever, but the human body can create the appearance of a separation.
Right. And that's sort of where I'm at. I'm at an increasing level of surrender into divine flow
and trust that I am, I am here. I'm co-creating, I'm doing a work, but I, but it is not in any way,
or in a, in a very decreasing way of what I, Cleburne thinks he wants or needs, because I,
Cleburne cannot see the big picture and how every puzzle piece fits together. So what my,
my prayer is, what my, my expansion is towards is how to be more in perfect alignment with,
and this is where people could say, God, the father, all source that I am in alignment
with the creator's will. So that as I surrender more fully into the story that I am here to,
you know, help experience or to experience or to, to serve that it can flow through me without my
ego and my will distorting what is to come through me. This is awesome. Yeah.
Rich, this is really, so I've been thinking about this very question in terms, because Rich and I
have been in this conversation for about a year now, about a year ago, I told him, I said, I am,
I said, I don't believe there's a separation between me and God, because I am, I am, I am,
I grew up with a historical framework that said I'm sinner. And the only way is back through grace.
Yeah. There's never a perfect integration. It's always a separated integration.
He is strong and right, right, right. So last year I made the distinction,
because that's historically not what I grew up in. And I, and I told Rich last year, I says, I
said, I am, and just go down that road and see what happens. And here I am a year later.
And what I realized for me is that Jesus said, I am. Yeah. Like if we're using Jesus as the guidepost,
yes, why don't we get to say, I am. Jesus controlled the weather. So if you can go out there and
control the weather. I told him, I think historically, but let me add one addendum to this.
What I realized is that I learned more about science and I learned about the amygdala and how
the brain works is that I've created a functional AI version of myself that projects through my
visuals to see exactly what I see in this visual image. And that's Jonathan, but that's not who I
am. That's a stored memory of who I think I am. And I'm always going to get it wrong. And when I
step away from that and let myself be, I am, it allows Jonathan separate weight. That's the material
world, but it's not the whole of who I am. So it then becomes unlimited rather than limited.
Yeah. The anything you say, I after I am anything you say after that, people say it's, it's casting
a spell. It will be true. Well, almost anything you say after I am is a very limited ego expression
of what we think we are. Right? Like just saying I am and leaving it at that is exactly I am, I am,
I am, and then God will fill in the rest with what is supposed to happen. So I, and as far as Jesus
changing the weather, I kind of want to point out two things on that one, the pretty much the only
times he ever really got frustrated. The main times he got frustrated, right? Like he was fine
sleeping during a storm, but he was on a boat sleeping. The storm wasn't the problem at all.
He didn't even bother to turn it off for himself. He got annoyed because his friends woke him up
because they were freaking out and he's like, Oh guys, I'm right here. Obviously nothing's going
to happen. Right. But maybe that storm was part of like what needed to happen for the crops and the
ecology and the, you know what I mean? And the ecosystem right there, like who, like if,
if a hurricane was coming through here, it might be good if we all stop it and save lives, but it
might be part of what needs to happen because the earth also moves through its cycles and motions.
So me, Cleburne needs to be able to say, I am willing to be part of whatever God has planned
for me up to and including a death that feels uncomfortable, which they're all going to anyways.
Right. So that being said, when Jesus changed the weather, one, he was asleep on the boat.
So he wasn't too stressed about it. And then when he got up and it's like, fine,
we'll turn this storm off right now. But he told his disciples several times,
you'll be able to do all that I've done and more. That was one of his things for us. And he got,
and he got frustrated when they were having a hard time with this, like the time they brought him a
woman that was needing to be needing to be cleaned of demons. And he was like, guys, how much longer
am I going to be with you? Like you've been with me, you've seen how we do this. You know how to do
it. You should be doing this right now. Now this is a very important distinction because he didn't
posture himself as saying, Hey, y'all can't do it. I can, you can't do this. So you need to like
follow me. When he said, I am the way he didn't say, I am the way he said, I am the way do it
like this. And you'll be able to do it. And what he kept trying to do was empower people. And that
got him killed. Just like whenever he was at the, the, the feast for the Palm Sunday and he came to
town and Mary like washed his feet and he's at the banquet. People wanted to come see him. And the
Pharisees were saying, not only, you know, they were discussing not only getting rid of him,
can I say killing him? They're probably not a good word for the algorithm, but anyway, they wanted
to get rid of him. But they also discussed getting rid of Lazarus who he had brought back from the
dead. They said, because of him, because of reason of him, people are leaving us and following Jesus.
Now, why would a religious body care anything about what people do with their eternal soul?
They didn't care about that. They cared about losing their customers that they had, they had
wrapped around their finger. They had a really good business model in place. I call it the,
the religious industrial complex. So here comes as long as it's been around as soon as Cain killed
Abel that dictated how the world was going to run. Right. So anyways, so that was what he came to do.
He came to empower the individuals, which creates more harmony in a group rather than a few
individuals that understand enough of how spirituality works and enough of our innate
desire to put our faith into something because we need to grow spiritually. But that doesn't get
nurtured, which is why he makes so many references to people who hurt children, right? Like spiritual
children. So the church was the one place where he went in and like flipped over tables and like
wrecked house, right? Like he will straight up do that because that's the one place that
means the most people that are capturing people's need to put their spiritual attention towards
growth and truth, but they monetize it. They feed off of that and they become a, they become a,
like a, not a blockade, what's the word, a gatekeeper, right? So they say you can come
this far, but if you ask any other questions or you try to go past this blasphemy and hellfire
and damnation, right? No question was off limits to Jesus. So yeah, he was here to empower people,
said we should and could do all that he did and more, but we cannot get those same levels of
mastery of the material world until we're able to accept surrender into the I am. And then we will
begin being shown where we can actually perceive it. The energy that's around us that is up till
now and perceivable to the human eye and choose to interact with the energy bodies that's in each
person. So what, what he was doing was healing was just in real time, instantly clearing the energy
fields of human beings. When they say there was a lot of demon possessed people, we've all, we've
all been old enough and around enough churches. You would think we would have bumped into a demon
possessed person if it looked like what it looks like in the movies, right? But that doesn't happen
what a demon is. So this sounds scary, right? But what were the, what happened every time Jesus
bumped into somebody that was demon possessed, they called him out, they called him out,
they called him a demon. The demons got scared of him, right? Correct. What, what is he to be scared
of? He is pure love. So demons are those energies that are afraid of love. They feed on fear. They
latch onto people and these can be sicknesses, illness. They are an energy. It's not a human
personality that we can try to turn it into. It's an energy that gets into people to whatever degree.
And what he was able to do was touch it with so much love because he never killed the demon. He
took them out of the bodies of people he didn't kill. Yeah. So all energy is allowed to exist,
but what's going to happen is as we are in this womb, this matrix, this purification process
through the consciousness of all humanity, what's happening is like a sifting process. So anyone,
any energy, any soul that is choosing to be cleared, to be elevated, to ascend is allowed
to do so. Anyone that wants to sleep is allowed to do so. Wow. One, I mean, obviously there's a lot of
like being asleep also is like being in the matrix and the battery pack, right? Where you're just
living it out, right? And some people want to get inserted back in there. And that's what we see
today, right? We see tons of this, right? Whether it's just being doom scrolling on Twitter or
for TikTok, et cetera, right? This is all that. What I'd love to explore with you is can you tell
us some of the ways and some of the things that you're doing to do those surrenders, to get into
that Christ consciousness, to help your body get elevated, to become more in alignment with the will
of God so that you can be what those early apostles were, right? They overcame pain, suffering,
persecution. They tapped into the source, right? They were there and elevated and they could be
trusted like that. Not everybody can be trusted like. So how do you, what are some of the things
you're doing today and what can you tell our audience that that's helping you get to that stage?
I would say that there are things that I do. I would say religious practices or almost even
religious experimentations or offerings, if you will, or just things I pursue spiritually. But
before I say that, I want to say that a lot of times what people look for is a thing to either
use it as a way to sort of like manipulate God to get something. Like I'm going to go read this
thing or do this fasting or go on this retreat or I'm going to behave this way. But what happens six
months later when they didn't get the result they wanted out of it? Does the pendulum swing back the
other way? Do they lose their faith? So a process of surrendering my will is effectively what it all
boils down to and not using any of these processes as a way to, not using them as a form of escapism
either. So I'm not doing that as a way to avoid my life. So in my personal life, I'm 40 now and I've
done a number of things that in the back of my mind, I knew I was doing them so that I could prove
to myself that I wasn't not doing it simply because I didn't think I could. I did stuff enough to
prove to myself that, okay, if I want to do this, I could commit to this, I can do this, I could be
successful of this playing the world's game in any number of ways. But after enough of that and I had
proven myself to myself, I said, okay, well, that's really for sure not why I'm here and that's not
what I'm supposed to be doing. So how can I practice letting go of one, what my ego, what my
avatar, what my persona had been built up towards to get me to this point? How can I let that go?
Who is my identity? And then how can I grow? What can I serve? So things that I do do,
like last week, Wednesday through Saturday, I did a three day water fast. So partly because as we
just talked about that, the disciples brought a woman to be exercised and he said, these kind
come out not but by prayer and fasting. So I was fasting as a way because it's one is just healthy,
right? Like Dana White, the UFC president, right? Just posted a thing the other day saying he did a
three day water fast. So I was like, honestly, it's probably time I should do a fast. I should
do a fast. I haven't done one. I've been like eating next to nothing all this year anyways,
but I'm meaning to do a fast just to clean the mechanism and also take a break from which I fast
from other things for periods of time. But a three day food fast, what that does is one, it gives
your body a chance to clear and recalibrate and deal with some of the energy shifts that have been
going on in the world that have been felt a lot. A lot of people have been like tired and feeling
weird things. So not continually putting stuff in your body gives your body a chance to process
what's already in it and get rid of stuff that has been trying to work out. And then during that
time, I became aware that even as someone who pays really close attention to everything that I think
about, and I'm a healthy person by fitness standards, I'm pretty healthy, but I eat a lot
as a self-soothe mechanism or as a coping mechanism or as an escapism. So there were a lot of times
during those three days where I was like uncomfortable and the thought was like, I wanted to reach for some
food. And I was like, well, I can't. So now what do I do with this emotion that I'm having? I guess
I better just go sit down and breathe for a couple of minutes. And then through that process,
no big revelations during those three days, because I didn't have the intention. I wasn't doing it so
that God could give me a vision or something like that. I was just doing it to do it because
somewhere along the way it's been proven and said in any number of arenas, secular, medicinal,
spiritual, everybody says fast. So I do them sometimes. Yeah. Your slough enough dead cells.
There's so many things that come from it. Right. Absolutely. And I don't need to have a mental
exchange in place that I'm expecting something. Now afterwards, I got some next level stuff.
But during that time, I just got to watch myself, how I view food as a, as a, as a mechanism outside
of just fueling the body. And then once I was done and slowly reintroducing food, there were
certain foods that I had been eating that when I, now that it's the only thing my body's getting,
I like really can observe how it's reacting to my body. Whereas before I was just cramming stuff in.
So it lets you be aware of the, the sensitivity your body has to foods as you begin reintroducing.
Mm hmm. I think one of the central, um, I don't know if it's appeals because fasting can be hard
when you first start. Um, but it was deeply beneficial for me last year. I lost 30 pounds
last year, primarily with fasting. And what I realized is that fasting is actually a,
it's a practice of stressing your body. Um, I can't remember who taught me about this. Like
meditation is essentially the same thing. It's a practice of stress so that you can teach your
body how to deal with the stress. So it's not fasting that's important. It's the dealing with
the stress. And that was provocative for me when I kind of made that shift last year that, okay,
it's not, you know, something I hate. It's something that's actually incredibly empowering
when you learn, Oh my God, I can actually handle that. Like that's very powerful.
Yeah. First of all, congratulations on losing the weight and then also gaining a higher capacity
or mastery over your, yourself and your ability to like see yourself in real time. That's awesome.
And I took me 56 years to get there. I mean, it took me 56 years to get to a place where I, so
it started cause in two, it's like 2010, I told my kids, you know, I'd love to be two 25 again.
I just as a joke and every year I would say the same thing on my birthday or sometime and my kids
would always tease me about it. And then last year I worked with a coach and realized I had been in
living in survival mode for the last 10 years from my divorce. And all of a sudden I learned to let
it go. And it was like, Holy shit. And what I think part of those 30 pounds was is just my historical
inflammation from the stress of that. Like I, it just came off, but I had the inertia. I told myself,
you know what, I'm not, I don't want to be 80 and never have done it. I want at least to say,
could I get back there? And I did. So I had a really intentional goal that I set for myself.
And I think that really helped a lot. I always tell people, if you want to fast, you've got to
set yourself a meaningful goal to even get there. Cause once I set that meaningful goal, then all
the obstacles weren't as strong. Right. So like you were committed to seeing it through. Yeah.
Cause I think that's what fasting essentially is, is it's going into a stress state.
Yep. I'd made a video about this a while back, but I think entirely that meditation, the biggest
thing to take away from that is your ability to regulate your system, whether in times of boredom
or in times of fight or flight, because like a lot of, like a lot of times people get so addicted
to the escapism of meditation where you're in that half a sleep state, that theta brainwave state,
and it is very peaceful. So sometimes people want to run off and live in a cave, you know what I
mean? And just fall off of society because they'd rather pretend that that is the totality of an
ideal life. Or people are so wrapped up in a, I always say that the stimulation is simulation,
like everything here is simulation. Right. So some people just get totally into it and they're very
hedonistic and very like, like, you know, super in the world in the flesh and all fine and good,
but where is the balance between that? When are you, when do you, you feel the most alive when
you're in a fight or flight is triggered for one positive reason or another, right? Like lust or
fight or something you feel super alive when you feel super blissful and like your touching spirit
is when you're the farthest away. But meditation exactly should, in my opinion, help bridge that
gap to where no matter where you're at in your life, you're sort of walking on one foot on each
side of the veil. So even when somebody's like something stressful is happening, you can still
sort of just in that moment, just consciously unnoticeably take a breath and realize like,
you know, your heartbeats rising, right? Like you're so in tune with what your body's doing.
You can just bring it back to where you want it to be. So you don't get carried away by the,
your, it's control of your attention, which the world's always trying to feed on your attention
and attract it into something. And then we're, we're led obliviously into whatever someone else
has picked out for us. So meditation helps you control where your attention goes in any moment.
Well, I think it's also important, you call that something really interesting is that it's not just
for dealing with fight or flight. It's also dealing with boredom. I think more people suffer from
boredom than they do trauma. You know, there's a sense of meaninglessness and get bored. Boredom
is really hard to deal with. It's, it's cause it's constant. It's just a never ending wave. And I
think what it does is it pulls us into either the past or the future. Like, Oh, remember when it was
awesome or what if it got better? And we're always searching for the dopamine hit. And I think, you
know, it's kind of one of the things about social media that has taught us about what it means to
be human being is we can get addicted to dopamine because we're bored as human beings, you know?
Yeah. You're spot on. Yeah. Jonathan, I don't know if you saw that. I don't know if it was Elon Musk
or somebody who said they did these experiments about putting somebody in a room and just telling
them to hang tight for an hour, right? To go sit down in a room by themselves. It's not a dark room,
but do that. And the amount of people that couldn't actually sit still for maybe 20, yeah,
for an hour, but let alone 20 minutes. So I think going back to the, these disciplines that we're
doing, I think, I think the more, more and more people are, are, are awakening to doing the hard
things consistently over time has massive, um, important effects. So whether that's meditation,
cause your mind that the reason why they recommend 20 minutes is that first 15 minutes, you just
wrestling with yourself. And those last five are close to deep in, you're going in, people do ice
baths, people do fasting. And when you're used to that and you have that, even though it's challenging,
at least your brain knows how to correct itself. They've even said that it's better for you to,
to lose your track of thought and go back to the constant that keeps you in that meditative state,
the breath work or the mantra, then to go straight 15 minutes without having to do it at all. They
actually like the fact that you recognize that's the beauty of it. And I had an interesting,
I told Jonathan this a while back and I think it was really key is that I've taken ketamine and so
as Jonathan, um, not necessarily for, uh, like coming out of, you know, addiction or depression,
but to rather reset the brain. Cause it has this ability and we've both been places where we're
seeing massive amounts of creativity going on. But one time I did it, I thought it was done with
it. And I even talked to my, my daughter, I went back into the room, I laid down and all of a
sudden I'm looking up at this ceiling fan and I just keep looking up again and it's almost
reverberating out and it's like, Oh shit, this is not going away. I am not, Oh my God, where the
hell am I right now? Right. And so that's called the K-hole. You might've heard of that term,
Cleaver. I'm not sure if you have, but when people are trapped in this space in their mind, um,
there, it's can be a really scary place. And, and it's called the K-hole. Well, in my back of my
mind, I said, you know what, I could be in a gutter someplace, knocked out dead. I could just be
alive and free. I'm just going to let this thing go and ride this thing and see what happens.
And very quickly I got out of it and I don't think I would've been able to
transcend that K-hole moment had I not had some mental fitness in the head from meditation prior
to that and some inner workings, right? To be able to get through those kinds of tough phases. So.
I agree entirely. Like any practice that allows you to be more, be more quick at observing
what's going on inside your, your consciousness and be able to steer it or at least accept
surrender into the, into the moment and let go, let not let fear guide you. Right. Um, which is,
I think the ever present initiation at every step, it's, are you going to let fear guide you or love
or faith, however you want to look at it, but it's always a shedding of fear. And then you grow in
your spiritual awareness and power.
I'm, I'm, I'm going to guess and say, you don't currently believe like you have in the past that
you've sort of come to this space because it's, would you agree with that? And if you do,
where did that start? What, what really brought you to like, what was the attractors that really
kind of shaped your thinking?
Yeah. So even as a small kid, my main things that interested me, the things that called to me were,
you know, what, like I'm seven years old wondering what is inner peace? How does, how does that,
how do you get that right? Like what's the deal with Buddhist monks? Um, why don't we all just
die and go to heaven now? What's the point of all this? It sucks. You know what I mean? Like, um,
so I was always wanting to understand how concepts like eternity work, who is God,
what, why doesn't the Bible make sense a lot of times, or at least sometimes when I read it, why
does it sound different than the way the old, the old preacher man up there says before he asked for
the offering plate. So, um, so trying to make sense of the world, but also trying to make sense of
who, trying to discover who am I? So a lot of my early life was everything was geared towards that.
All of my, uh, vocations were geared towards that, right? I was in the Marines for four years. After
that, I was a professional fighter for several years. Um, I've had a number of vocations that
forced me to find out who I am in these types of situations and in these types of energies and how
to flush out the crap that I didn't, didn't want, or at least come to grips with the fact that stuff
that maybe I would have preferred otherwise, but this is, this is my limitation or a strength,
whatever. So self discovery was probably the first many years of my, my process, whether knowingly
or not. And then there came a point where I became comfortable enough to say, you know what,
I can no longer go along with what doesn't sit right in my soul just because I've been programmed
to think that outside of this thing, uh, is something bad, some sort of eternal punishment,
because that also doesn't track for me. Like there wouldn't be built some system that just
so happened to excludes all of time and history, except for this small pocket of humanity that
just so happens to have been built around this one book and this one corner of the world. And if you
deviate from that, you're screwed for all eternity. I'm like, well, that really rules out the
time and history. So I was like, okay, so what is the universal truth and what is as true about me
now, if I were alive 600 years ago or 600 years from now, those were the things I wanted to know.
What is universally true and what exists outside of time and what is my connection to all of that?
As far as letting go of the fear of potentially being blasphemous, that was where that was the
first big level of, uh, of self discovery. And then there was the fear of being blasphemous.
Big level of, uh, letting go, just like you said around the time of last year where you felt
comfortable saying, you know what I am, I had to say, you know what I am, God, how you made me
and right or wrong. There's plenty of both plenty of right and plenty of wrong, but I was made.
I don't recall selecting any of this stuff, any of the, the environments I was born into or whatever.
I feel like I do my very best. So from this point on, uh, I'm going to trust you to either correct
me or strengthen me, but I'm going to, that was where I started shedding layers of fear,
but also surrendering by saying, I just am, and I'm going to move as the spirit leads.
And effectively it was a process of letting go of how much is my ego leading or my, my fear ego is
generally fear-based or it's at least pattern recognition, trying to repeat itself, trying to
get rid of that stuff and be more in line with the will of we say the father. I like to pray to God,
the father, because that verbiage, that imagery, uh, works well with me, but I, I know that what
you would call God, when you, when you visit with, when you are in the presence of looking through
the eyes of the all, it doesn't exist in the same construct as like a man, like a sky daddy with a
beer. That's not how that works, but, um, that is a really long winded way to say that you could
probably edit all that out, but, um, through a series, through a, through a few decades of
self-discovery led to a point where I was comfortable letting go of that self. When was that?
All of last year. Oh, so this recent that you really came to this space. Yeah. Yeah. All of
last year was what you would call like a big tower moment or dark night of the soul. Like that. A lot
of people go through, I was just massively depressed. I could no longer keep up as well
with all the responsibilities on my plate. I was doing my best to just, uh, yeah, keep the ball
rolling and keep, keep the kids happy and comfortable in the house. Well put together in my health and
order. But mentally I was like, I was certain I was about to die or something. I thought my body
was about to give out. I didn't know what was going on. And then, uh, I just started letting go.
And then earlier this year in January, uh, I started a tick talk where, cause I was like,
well, nobody knows me there. So I can go there and say things that, uh, nobody's listening anyways.
And maybe somebody will find me and I can have conversations that I would like to have that I
don't have anyone else to talk about. And then that platform grew, you know, has been growing
pretty quickly. And that's where, what one thing led to another. And that's how you guys found me,
that somebody from there invited me onto a podcast and you guys saw it and now we're chatting. So,
uh, yeah, last year was the old me dying, the ego death, the avatar had reached the end of the road.
The midlife crisis, I call it as a, as a, as a spiritual shedding and what it's a, it's an
opportunity for people to decide that this character that you built around the age of puberty
that helped you survive and function and be successful in society, uh, is only meant to get
you so far. And once that thing is ready to kick the bucket, what a lot of guys do, especially,
you know, like, what do you do? I want the yellow Corvette. I want the, I want the,
all the stuff, right? Like you want to go on trips or if you're in a position to date, you want to
get a, get a girl or whatever. Um, so that's people saying, you know what, I've only ever known
this worldly way of doing it. It's gotten me this far and something doesn't feel right,
but I have to hold onto this. And then they spend the rest of their life trying to get through life
and like an, like old dead skin, or if you're willing to let that version of you die and be
born again, uh, there's, there's a, there's a spiritual empowerment that comes along with that.
I feel, and I've, you know, I've been seeing more and more of that and you guys as well, like,
I'm pretty sure this past year of your life has probably felt a lot lighter and more, uh,
vibrant than many of the years prior.
The most profound year of my life. I mean, hands down, this has been the most profound year of my
life. And I think because I opened my, I opened the door to possibility, like I said, let's go,
let's just dive down the street. I remember I walk my dog every night and it's right where it
happened. I remember exactly where it was. And I said, I'm just going to do this and see what
happens. Because intellectually it felt true already. I probably had been in that space for
probably a half a decade where I was very comfortable because Rich and I have already
always had conversations about it. And I realized, okay, once I opened myself up to the possibility,
now all my walks started becoming very, very different that I started because Rich and I
have been in on a conversation around love as a way of life. I think that's the, that's the key
for me of why Jesus has always been incredibly relevant is Jesus created a very simple key
that says, if you live your life this way, it's not going to be easier, but it's going to be a
massively better experience. Because you're, because when you practice love, you create a
willingness to always see the good first. And that creates an experience that is radically enjoyable.
That's the best way I would put it is you start realizing, God, life is really much better than
I see it. And our brain is not really used to working that way. That especially for there's,
do you mind if there's, there's two takeaways I want to have from that, like God saying, live in
love with that, with that actually looks like in real time. And then I also want to mention that
for men in society, right? What, what the expectations are on us and the identity that
for any of us that have made it up to, you know, our twenties, thirties, forties, fifties,
we got that way by being a man in accordance with society's expectations. And a man is supposed to
be certain and be this way. You know what I mean? So the idea of saying, I'm just going to surrender
that is a hundred percent like letting go of, you know, what's going to be on the other side of this?
What kind of a man am I going to be after this? How, how is society going to receive me
when I began to practice surrender, when I began to practice ease, and even saying I'm going to walk
in a vibration of love like that, you know, not too long ago that would, that would just about be
fighting words in some groups of guys, right? Like, you know what I mean? So yes. So society
has tricked men into not being the priest of the household who, who serves the family and,
and functions as, as the priest of the household. Like we've been historically biblically told that
we are supposed to be the, the, the channels through which love, God's love can flow out into
the world, but also the leaders and the builders of a divine loving idea. So being a man in today's
society adds a layer of challenge. And I almost want to say, I'm glad that there is such an uprising
of so many like hippie girls and like, like there are a lot of women in the space of spirituality
that are creating a space where it's okay for men to feel accepted and not like they're going to look
less manly to be able to have these kinds of conversations. So in that regard, that is a,
that is a way where women are leading or creating space for men to grow by saying it's okay to shift.
It's not emasculating. It's not turning men into women. It's not feminizing. It's not,
it's not a feminating man. It's saying we understand that what a strong man really does is
operates this way, not that way. What we've been tricked into thinking is that a strong man is
what we've been used as effectively slaves and a system that keeps us out of the home, keeps us
focused on work, keeps us focused on materialism and anything else, you know what I mean? So I don't
want to touch on this because I'm sure you guys have wrestled with this enough, but it's a, that
is shifting. But then also Jesus saying to exist in love, to follow his example, to carry your cross.
He didn't say carry my cross, right? Like we're talking about, he said, cross daily. Yeah.
So, yeah, so I am going away, but this way is what you should do. You carry your cross. And then what
happens is that's a lot like, um, you know, like we walk in the shade of a lot of trees that we
didn't plant. So to some degree we have to be the ancestors that does some work that continues to
bring in more and more of that love into the world around us. So he went first. He came in at a time
where the world was so backwards that spirituality was so controlled and weaponized that if you even
attempted to empower people to their own inner divination, you'd get, you get in public, you know
what I mean? Like crucified in public and made an example of. So he went first. We've been in the
Christ stage ever since then, which is, you know, I like to mention a lot that when he died on the
cross and the earth shook up to the temple and the temple, they'll split from top to bottom.
So since then, the veil has been open to all of us since then. So the people who press in and are
willing to let go of fear and say, I'm going in, whatever this means, I trust you at least enough
God to know that I wouldn't have this desire to look in here if it was a trick. You wouldn't trick
me that way, right? God either way I'm looking. So it's at least faith over fear to that regard.
And as we do that, as more of us people keep allowing love to channel through us by existing
simply in the, I am not the, I am plus I want a nice house and then I'll be, I am, or I am,
and I want things to work out this way and then I'll be, but just simply I am God flow through me,
heaven on earth through me, your will be done, not mine. So the more of us that do that, the more we're
moving earth into a future where there will be tons of people existing in Christ consciousness,
where healing is literally done through a actual grasp of energy on the spot, clearing demons,
clearing sicknesses, illnesses, energies, energies that are attempting to destroy the presence of
love, energies that flee when they are in the presence of love. That's what society is becoming
in a very fast pace right now. I agree. Yeah. Go ahead, John. No, if you had a thought, go ahead.
That surrender is what's so key to me and that's what's so crazy because the nature of what Jesus
did in that Abraham 8 58 when he's asked who are you? You came before Abraham. He goes before Abraham,
I am. Right. And so he's basically throwing down what God told Moses when he's going to Egypt to
say, who should I say sent you? Say that I am sent you. Right. So he's claiming that, but at the same
time, he's surrendering that kenosis where he comes down and condescends and he opens it up.
So what's crazy about that two sided thing, which you talked about a while ago is there were those
times where he was sweating blood, right? You know, and the garden of Gethsemane, the night of sweating
blood, because he's seeing that separation that's going to happen in the future. And yet who drained
the power from me when the lady touches him? I don't know when the final judgment is coming.
That's only the father. That is the consciousness that I would love to embrace because you're tapping
into both hands. Right? Yes. Like he was, he was co, he was a co creator. He was the most possible
expression of God in the human form, in the form of love, but also he wasn't totally in charge of
the story because exactly that's one of my favorite stories when you, you know, you kind of went past
it and some people may not catch that, but where he said, who touched me, the story where he was in
a crowd, a crowd was swarming him. So he was, and some woman wanted to be healed and she couldn't
get his attention. So she reached out and touched his robe and he, without seeing what happened,
was shocked and said, who touched me? I felt power go through me, which meant he was just an open
channel in that moment. And it wasn't because he, Jesus of Nazareth, the carpenter thought I'm going
to heal this woman, but she, her faith went and touched the Christ. Her faith could not be denied.
Right. There are a number of examples of that also. So the, the Centurion, yes, the serpent.
Yes. I've just, yes, the same exact thing. That's one of my favorite stories because a Centurion was
not educated in the Abrahamic culture. He was not a Jew. He was a pagan, right? He did not worship
the way they worship, but he was educated and he was a blue collar guy. This is a soldier,
but he was at least educated enough to be aware of this guy who he's hearing about and what he's
doing and what that implied. And when Jesus was going to come and the guy said, Hey, I'm,
I'm not even fit for you to come into my household. I'm a man under authority. When I say one person
to go do this or go do that, it's done. So I know all you need to do is speak a word, which meant he
was aware that Jesus controlled energy. He controlled the invisible world. We could call that an,
an army of angels that he was aware that this guy had control of the unseen. And he had zero doubt
to where he could say, don't even come in my house, but would you please just say it and it'll be
done. And he was astonished. So Jesus looked around at his disciples and he's like, you,
you Jack asses, you see this guy, why don't you get it? You're literally hanging out with me.
And he's got that much faith. One of you guys got out on a boat and walked on water with me for a
few seconds. Like, you know what I mean? So, so all of these concepts are, and him saying, you know,
there's going to be people from the East and the West sitting at the table of the, of Isaac and
Abraham and Jacob, but the, the children of Israel won't be there. That's his way of saying that
everybody in the world is not excluded from gaining access to this Christ consciousness.
You don't have to be born this way. You don't have to be circumcised or baptized or whatever.
You just have to like, be willing to know without a doubt that what you're looking at, and it's not a
dogmatic thing. It's a presence of a energetic source of love. That is a lot of people have a
hard time accepting at this point, but it's a, it's the, the, the second coming is like sweeping
right now because so many people are waking up into that, that at least, yeah, I think it's,
it's almost like a planetary or a cosmic alignment, right? Would you agree that it's more like a
perception as opposed to, well, obviously the book of Revelation talks about the new Jerusalem
coming, right? And God doesn't want to blow the planet up, but are you saying, is it going to be
twofold? Is there going to be something real to what Revelation talked about, or is it, is the
actual shift something the kingdom is truly coming within? What do you think? So I've actually been
given a big, man, I don't want to get too much into this, but you asked me, I wasn't even going
to bring it up, but yeah, so I can't get into it too much, but there I will soon. So you know how
Jesus said, this age is ending an age and back in Genesis, where it says, these are the stories of
the ages of the days where God created the earth, the heavens and the earth, right? So age,
each age has a direct handoff to the next age. So in each age, there was a demigod, a Christ,
a savior that was effectively spreading the same message. So you could look at Zoroaster,
who was the first that we know of monotheistic religion in Iran. And this story that's thousands
of years older than the story of Jesus is the exact same story. Miraculous birth, King of the
land had a order out on his life. Archangels were involved in his upbringing. At a certain age,
he left home to begin studying. At age 30, he reached Samadhi with Ahura Mazda. Ahura Mazda
means the supreme creator of the universe. And through that direct connection and through those
teachings, he went out and shook up the established religion of the, I mean, it's the exact same story
of Jesus Christ and it's thousands of years older. And this is not some fringe thing. This is
it's super historically validatable that this story existed, but I'm not saying at all that Jesus is a
knockoff or a copy. He existed. This new timeline did exist, but you're saying his purpose was for
an age. So here's the thing. So Zoroaster, his religion, Zoroastrianism, those priests are
called Magi. That's right. So the kings of the East, the wise men of the East. So they are
astute astrologers. I don't know how we as Christians just breeze right past the fact
that there's a story that we sing every year around this time about three wise men that just
so happen, like in the picture books when we're kids in Sunday school, it's always some noticeably
bright big star. Couldn't miss it, right? If you couldn't miss it, there wouldn't only be a few
guys that just spotted it and followed it on a long journey to a geographical location. They were
Zoroastrian priests who were very skilled astrologers. So they were always observing
the stars and they knew when the one came that said the birth of the king of the Jews, the new
Christ has come. So that was their cue to go. They brought gifts as is appropriate to let mom and
dad know who they are, exactly who this son is, which would be extra confirmation because as all
of us that have been in the spiritual space know, we know God doesn't just give us one message.
He's going to give you a few dots that would not connect otherwise, a few synchronicities that
don't connect otherwise, unless you know it's not happening because you somehow dreamed it.
Okay. Okay. Got it. Yeah. Okay. So Joseph and Mary, here's baby Jesus. We've already been
visited by an angel. Stuff's already not making sense. He's born. Now three guys show up with
gifts. They're well-dressed. They've got an entourage of servants. They're bringing gold
and frankincense and myrrh and they're letting us know also this kid's special. And then when he's
of age, he's going to go train with them further. Okay. So the difference is in each age,
where there was one Christ was the one that said, there will be lots of us. We will all do what he
did greater works than these and more will you do. He was the one that said, when he comes back,
when the Christ consciousness returns, the end of this age will be a lot of people becoming Christ
like. And what to be one, the lookout for is the people who are gaining that ability enough,
but claiming to be the Christ, the one or the one to attract your worship. So anybody that's not
directing you, anyone that's not directing you back into your, into your center, not from a selfish
standpoint, not in an ego vanity standpoint, but the kingdom of God is within you. Right? Jesus said,
it doesn't come by sight. You don't look here, look there. The kingdom of God is within you.
So anybody that says, look at me is probably out to trick you. Anybody that says, look at me,
says this thing that I'm doing, I'm only doing it to show you that you can do it too, because the
father who is in me, I am in the father. I'm in the father and the father is in me. So that is
a message throughout the ages that said in different ways. And we are wrapping up the end
of this age where there's a lot of people waking up to Christ consciousness and the shift. Sorry,
I skipped like getting chills about this one. But, okay. So here's where we really are. This is what
I've really been shown outside of a space of time. So we are at the edge of this age and the people
that have been doing the inner work and wanting to ascend are about to, and the people that have
stayed married to fear or to status quo or to the world are going to stay just like they are. Those
who are ascending in the background of our world right now, like when you, when you hear about all
the energy, Virginia talked about this, Jonathan, Virginia Drake talked about this shift. Go ahead.
The Schumann residence and all the, the, the power surges hitting earth. So what's happening right
now is the background of our reality, our hologram, our game is effectively a software updates being,
being uploaded. And there will come a day in the fairly near future where a bunch of us just all of
a sudden it doesn't, we don't really think about people we used to know, coworkers, acquaintances.
There, there are a number of people who just aren't. Yes. They're, they're shifting out of
your consciousness and our world. Yes. And the experience we are having of life is one where
people are able to become aware of our, our energy bodies and the energy construct that we exist in
to the level that Jesus did. And the world is going to heal and be able to grow manifest. If you,
you know, it's going to shift much more rapidly because the people that are existing in that plane
are going to share a common theme, which is we are here to exist in love and bring about love. And we
are the, I am right. We're not the ego that thinks I want something or thinks I don't want something.
And then those people that wanted to stay there, the world they are in is going to be a much worse
version of the world. Now there's going to be a lot more chaos and calamity and disruption
and natural disasters and stuff like that. They are going to see and physically experience the
spooky stuff from revelations to a degree, to a degree where earth seems so unlivable,
that what they're going to do is plug themselves into the, an actual matrix, a digital, you know,
the, in the backdrop of our life right now, there is AI, there is algorithm everywhere.
How did that all of a sudden become such an ever present thing in our life? Right? Like
I can't walk down the street and say something to a friend without later that day, getting an ad
for something we talked about. Right. So what's going to happen?
Neural link actually exists to connect your brain to the digital space.
I mean, we're, we're one step away from digital, uh, telec, you know, telepathy and stuff.
Transhumanism. Yep.
Yes. So those of us who are wanting to step in, step to pursue spiritually are about to be in more
of a spiritual energy body state. We're still going to recognize ourselves, but like Jesus said,
you won't, you're not going to be married. You're going to be like the angels in heaven,
right? We're going to be more in, and we're going to be more aware of and fully embodied by our
energy body. Like how it says he transfigured in front of his disciples and he just did a little
shape shift. If you will, however you want to picture that that's going to be us. We're going
to have more control of the energy that animates us. God's breath in us. We're going to be trusted
with more ability to manipulate and interact with that. Okay. But everybody else is going to be
present in a version of the world that's going to shit and they're going to upload themselves
into a digital matrix, into a, uh, uh, you know, a place to put their consciousness,
just like we did when we came to this earth. Okay. So those are the consciousnesses that have not
chosen to ascend at this time. So they've got to go to a new place. The rest of us will inherit
the earth. I've told, I've told rich, I told you what about three months ago that I think
tribulation is actually going to happen. I think we're in that seven year period. It's not going
to look, what are the four horsemen? I don't know, but I told them based on what I'm experiencing
in the capacity, when I look at the unified field inside, it looks like what you're talking about.
It looks like complete restoration. Like it's, and it's not like I can see it. It's, I'm feeling
what it would feel like. And it's like, okay, it's pretty damn good. And if you knew what it
felt like you would absolutely want it, but you can't convince people of something they haven't
felt, which is, which is why, uh, what we were talking about earlier, the masculine is predominantly
logic and the feminine is predominantly the heart. And in order to see that sense of coherence,
which is that space, the unified field, you have to have coherence, which is why women are going
to be naturally ahead of the men. Men have got to be able to get down to the heart because until
you feel it, the chemical charge is actually happening in your body and you understand the
value of it. It has no meaning because we feel meaning. We logically connect the ideas, but in
order for them to become gnosis, we have to feel them. And that's what Jesus was able to do. Jesus
had perfect coherence to be able to create an energetic experience in people that they felt
not just logically concluded. And I also, yeah, I think what's, what's important about what you're
saying, Cleburne is also, we're not coming at this from a dispensational standpoint saying you're
going to go to hell and you're going to hang out in the lake of fire. What the reason why I'm telling
you about Jesus and about surrender and about what can be this is you're doing it out of love
instead of a fear-based construct, right? I'm, I'm why are you saving up? Well, I'm out there
because they're all going to die and they're going to be burning in hell forever. Right? It's like,
no, this is a different paradigm. And I think it comes from a more powerful framework than
the traditional old, you know, brimstone kind of deal. Right. And this falls back to are we
God or are we separate from God? Well, we're all at least created by and animated by God.
So it is, it would be, it would be awfully audacious of me to tell some other aspect of God
with his own free will to choose the rate at which he's going to step further into his growing
that he needs to do it on my schedule or right now. Jesus was pretty rough, like pretty blunt
to the members of the church, the Pharisees, because they were, they were gatekeeping people
from the truth and they were misleading people. So they were delaying the evolutionary, the evolution
of the consciousness of many people. And this has been going on for a while, but outside of that,
he didn't, you know, when I was a kid, I was like, why didn't he go around and stop all the bad guys
at that time? That wasn't the point. But you know, for the same reason, it's like what you do for the
least of these, you do for me, the whole no separation concept. That was the same reason he
said, forgive them. They know not what they do on the cross because there's no difference between me
or you or you or you. You are an expression of divinity making a choice. So God loves us so much
like when Cain killed Abel and he was like going to put a mark on him and Cain was like, well,
if you do that and I go out, the other people are going to see me and they're going to kill me
for what I've done. So God put a mark on him so that no one would hurt him. Correct. There's always
grace. There's always grace, right? There's always the option to choose what you want. But in God's
algorithm, every action has a consequence and you're going to have to keep at it until your
choices lead you into Christ consciousness. So that sort of connects where what the ideas of
reincarnation, but reincarnation is not as linear as how some people think. But effectively, yes,
we've reached the end of the age. There's going to be a splitting off. So this hologram, this game
that we live in, that we perceive, I mean, if you really think about it, we take so much stuff for
granted that exists in the world that didn't exist 10 or 15 years ago. And even three years ago,
the world was so different, right? And every now and then stuff will just happen and the world's
totally different out of the blue. The world has accelerated since open eye came out. I mean,
that's what it's like. It's crazy, right? So, you know, and then you can look back at ancient
technology, like the pyramids are probably the most famous example that they are bafflingly
well-built. That age had mastery. They were able to build things. That age got wiped away. There
is a remnant that remains as a connecting dot for people who need an intellectual connecting dot
between the ages to see that that age had its time. You could look at the flight of Egypt in
the Bible, by the way, right after the Magi visited Jesus, the parents fled to Egypt to raise him.
And that verse, it says, so that prophecy may be fulfilled that I shall call my son out of the land
of Egypt. So that was the baton being handed off from one age to the next. Christ said the next
time, it's not going to be one. It's going to be a lot of Christ. That's where we're at. That's
why there is such a thriving spiritual community that's like for less, for better, for lack of a
better term, normal people, right? Like this is not the hippie movement of the sixties necessarily
that got stigmatized. This is like, you know, functioning society that are just like, you know
what? I'm not trying to be radical here, but no, I'm just going to, I'm just going to see what it
feels like to fall into love. So that's where we're at. That jumping off point is about to happen.
And it will be imperceivable as this shift continues to happen, because a lot of people
right now are existing in their own version of, you know, calamity, the people that stare at the
news, the people that are so emotionally invested. They don't even, they don't even realize that
their thoughts, their attention is giving life to that system, to that version of reality that we
don't even like, we can't even think about it. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't even exist to us.
So that's, that's where the separation is about to happen. Do you have any sense?
Do you have any sense of when that was going to happen or is going to happen?
I actually believe that I'm, I'm wholly on board with what you're talking about.
So here's how time works when you're outside of it. And you shoot how you experience this?
Yeah. So when people, people want like a calendar date, right? But what's a better way to understand
it? Yeah. A better way to understand it would be if we had mastery of how astrology works, like how,
how Genesis right up front in page one, God created lights in the firmament for signs,
which later on some guys were watching those signs enough to know when his son was born. So
we don't do that. Right. So if you wanted to gain a, gain a PhD in, you know, astrology,
astronomy, the planetary motions that those are more of an indicator of God's clock than our
calendar, our Gregorian calendar. Those are effectively God's clock, countdown timer. But
even that doesn't matter because time doesn't really make sense except when you're paying
attention to it. Yeah. You already know, you already felt that. You already felt that, right?
Like, so, so how do you determine time? Well, this conscious mind is going to be
well, this consciousness that's in this body, when we go to sleep at night, are we also still
experienced, like, are we aging differently? Because when you're in, when you're dreaming
or when you're meditating or sometimes like a, like I hit the snooze button, it's a nine minute
timer. If I go back to sleep, sometimes I have a dream that is nine minutes long, but it's a
whole day for me. So did I live nine minutes or did I live a day during that time? So as we embody
ourselves as energy more than the idea that I'm this man, I'm this lump of clay that's animated,
we will become more able to accept is, is, are we one, are we God or are we separate from God? Was
Jesus God or was he a man? Well, he's a lot of stuff all at once. So are all of us. So once
we hear pretty soon, start feeling that time doesn't, doesn't make sense the way we've come
to look at it when we look at our clock and time to be to work and all that stuff.
I've got a
rich, hold on a second. Yeah. So what I hear you saying is you don't know when it's going to happen
on human conceived time. I think that I am experiencing it as quickly as I can accept it.
And I don't even know the difference at this point between today or a year ago or two years ago.
Because like it exists. So, no, I don't know. I don't know how to give you a calendar day,
but if you wanted to look at one, I could just tell you guys as we are heading into this next one
year, 2024, over the course of this year, you know, almost like write this conversation down
or what you are thinking about today, date it and stamp it and then open it in six months and see
if the world you're living at that time even resembles how you felt or what you thought or
what was like part of your, your backdrop in your life at this time. It will not be anything the
same. It will not be anything the same. I believe that. And I think part of what I
hear you saying is in this concept of time is the appearance of how you experience it, not
an actual time on a clock. Yes. When you're outside of time in different times, time almost zones
and having the same experience at different times. Yes. Side by side in the same room.
Just like if you were to have a DVD in your hand, right? I'm looking at it right now,
right this second, but if I were to put it in a DVD player and like experience the story,
now you're giving time to it by stretching it out and observing it at a different pace,
but take it back out and stop looking at that story. It's right here right now. So that is
the story of us from the context of eternity, right? Like it's, it's, it's there. It only exists
or has a concept of time when consciousness is going in and moving through that storyline.
But our consciousness, just like when you're in the dream state or the meditative state or the
waking state or you're making love to a woman or when you're eating or when you're stuck in traffic,
time affects you differently all the time. Sorry for talking so long, by the way. I really meant to.
No, dude, this has been one of the fascinating conversations we've had this year. It's because
you're, this is very much in our vein. And it's very much in what Rich and I have really been
dialoguing for the last year. Let me ask you one question and then Rich, I'll let you close with
one question too is where do you go with what you know? What are you doing with it?
I am in flow with it. If that I have no personal ambition. I'm not sitting here from my cleavered
mind trying to paint a picture of what I want tomorrow to look like. If that, and that's all
I can say. I guess the question is what is the responsibility leading you to do with it? Because
it's obviously been given to you, the awareness of it. I'm talking about the awareness. Okay. So
what do you do with that? Because I think that's what I wrestle with all the time. What do I do when
I suddenly understand grace at a much deeper level? What do you do with that consciousness?
As far as like, how do I work through my day to day? What, what sort of practical things do I do?
How do you send a message? How do you tell the other? Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Jesus led with a message. He told people he did. He was responsible for it. Where is it?
Where is this whole journey leading you with that sort of awareness?
It is to direct people into their own inner divinity, to take them out of their current
framework of who, who the identity that most people hold for themselves is unbelievably
limited. And it's not from a state of vanity to say, to point at somebody and say you're God,
because you're, you're awesome and you can serve yourself. However you see fit. It's because you
are a cosmically empowered body of energy, literally capable of co-creating reality in
conjunction with the divine. And we take this for granted and we misuse it every second of the day.
And you think about this anytime you have an idea and put it on paper or start a DIY project or
somebody invents something, there's evidence all around. So directing people to seriously outgrow
their current idea or concept of who they are is the main message I'm here to do and do it in a way
that has nothing to do with Kleber. It is moving people hopefully in a way that doesn't stroke
their, their vanity or their ego, but rather their gratitude for being able to acknowledge
that they have been animated and empowered and provided for all this time by a source that's so
unfathomably big. And that is what we are. That is what we are.
Just so I hear you clearly, you don't want to create the church of Kleber and where you rake in milk.
So I've got a spot picked out. It's right next to Joe Lowstein's church in Houston. So no,
that's not what a bigger stadium. Yeah. No, that's not what a, no, I'm not a,
not trying to start a, start a church or a cult or anything like that. I just want to
like that. I just want to continue doing my part and see as many of us working together in this next
phase. That's awesome. Yeah. We actually had, we had a Tao priest on, who actually
admired Joel Olson. I couldn't believe it. He seemed like just very rooted. And if you read
the Dao Dao Chi and like some of the simplicity and makeup, dude, you're impressed by Joel. And
he talked a lot about hypnosis and, and he just thought Joel was a great guy. And I'm like, okay,
all right, that's, that's you do. Yeah. I can't hate him. I met him before actually. And I had a
chat with him and stuff. I can't hate Joel Osteen. I'm certainly, he's not like an, an example of mine
to follow. Because he's like, he's, he's literally not malicious. Right. And he's very, he makes,
he makes a ton of money, right? Like, but I at least respect the fact that all the ties that
his church makes, he doesn't, he doesn't get paid by the church. He makes his money off of like
appearance fees and books. So I'm like, okay, well that I can, I don't, I don't get as grumpy at him
as like some of these other mega church pastors, but anyways, yes, he's not a, that's, that's not
enough. All right. My last question for you, it's a little bit of a theological content tangent,
but it also ties into where we are today. I, it's my understanding that Zoroastrianism was a dualistic
kind of construct. There was good and evil, always battling against each other, kind of a lot like
the force. You got the sith and the Jedi. And in fact, I don't know if you knew this, but there
was a guy named Manny also from Persia who came along and he created Manichaeism. Shout out to
the Navy. You heard of the term Manichaeism? I've heard of it, but I've never looked into it. It
was a spin-off of Zoroastrianism and actually Sam Augustine loved it. And he was totally caught
up in it. It was a little bit of Christ-like stuff in there. And there's a lot of dualistic stuff,
but one of the things that I was getting at is at least with what we've seen in Revelation. And I
think what we love, what I like about it, as opposed to the cycle we're going over and over,
is that there is an end to the story, meaning there's trials and tribulations, but at this point,
there will be a consummation. There is an end to the epoch. And so do you believe that once we've
made the shift, that's going to be the future state, or do you think there's going to be another
cycle of this all over again, kind of like Hinduism and Zoroastrianism seems like there's
always a perpetual battle? If you really want to know what the finish line looks like. So again,
there's a clump of humans or consciousnesses existing, energies. There's more than we can see.
Everything that's in existence in a certain age, there's a sifting process that happens.
Some of it ascends to another matrix, another womb. Some of it has to recycle and continue
working through stuff. Now, once certain parts, once certain fractals of source have worked their
way back into source, the game is over once every single ounce of energy has gone through enough
cycles and ascended back into total communion with God.
With the one, yes. And that is eternity, that place where all of everything conceivable,
there is no such thing as no thing, right? There is nothing. People who say space is expanding
into what? So the all, when everything, that moment where everything is fully enlightened
and ascended and looking through the eyes of God, that's the eternity of what you could call heaven
or God consciousness. And then from there, the all, which is now one, can reconcile all of experience
and sit in its own meditation of silence with itself until God wants to do it again.
Yes. And Jonathan, this ties perfectly in a universalist framework where, you know,
in universalism, I don't know if you're familiar with Christian universalism,
but it's where God's love transcends man's stupidity. And ultimately everyone will be
reconciled to that nurturing over time, over eon, over epochs, right? So this is good news.
This is good news. Yeah, the lake of fire, there's no eternal damnation. There is weeping
and gnashing of teeth for the moment a soul comes unto true conviction where that all of a sudden,
they gain a full grasp of the truth and they also gain a full grasp of what they themselves have
been choosing to do. So they themselves experience hell through their own guilt and shame and lack.
And a lot of times that's a cycle to grow through, but for those souls that have done so much that
it's irredeemable, that is also part of like, there's a truth and there's a symbolism, but the
truth of the Christ consciousness dying and going into that place to be the hand to guide out of the
utter darkness, those who otherwise could never give themselves the permission or see the way out.
So at all levels, the process is it in folding on itself and moving itself up. So yes, universal,
the, that concept is, and this is not stuff I'm not a big reader, because I don't want to accidentally
regurgitate doctrine. I sit and listen and this is the experience I've been given.
It's magnificent. I've got goosebumps right now, man. I think this has been a profound conversation
and it's incredible. We say that a lot. Wow. Grandma says this is best Thanksgiving ever every
year. And it's like, wow, it's like this, this was, this was amazing and an absolute honor and a
privilege to meld with you on this. I love it. I'm looking forward to our next chat. Yeah, this is
amazing. Yeah. So we're going to do, we've already decided we're going to do a part two for listeners
who are aware we're going to do this pretty quickly. But, Kleber, and this has been one of the most
fascinating conversations because we got to dive into a lot of things that we care about, but that
you care about as well. And I think this has been a very eye opening conversation because I always
love being surprised by new ideas and you have a lot of amazing ideas and a lot of awareness.
So I look forward to our next conversation. So thank you for joining us. We really appreciate
that. Thank you guys. Looking forward to it. Yeah. So to all of our listeners, thank you for
listening. Please subscribe and review, comment. We're also on YouTube, so find us there. Would
love to interact with you. If you have a suggestion for a guest, please let us know. There's a form on
our website, livinginthematrix.ai and really looking forward to where the next year is going. But
this has been such a great way to bring in December. Yeah, absolutely. So thank you everybody for
listening. We wish you the best and we will see you in a week. Much love everybody.