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Welcome to Living in the Matrix. I'm Jonathan and I'm left of center.

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And I'm Rich and I tend to lean a little bit more to the right. But the bottom line is,

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is together we try to look for the balance of what it means to be human in today's world.

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All right, let's get started. Welcome to Living in the Matrix, everybody. I'm Jonathan. I'm here

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with Rich. Say hi, Rich. Hey, everybody. Good to be back. Awesome. Today we have a fascinating

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guest. His name is Jason Coker. Do I get that right? Is it Coker? Yeah. Good job. Cool. Jason

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is the co-lead minister with his wife at Oceanside Sanctuary. He's formerly First Christian Church of

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Oceanside. Jason earned his MA at Fuller and is currently a PhD student conducting research at

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the intersection of intercultural theology, religious disaffiliation, and moral psychology.

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I can't wait to unpack that with you. He's building community organizing efforts in San Diego

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and coaches leadership and other pastors. Welcome, Jason. Glad to have you. That guy sounds awesome.

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Who is that guy? That's why we invite you on. Is there anything more awkward in the world than

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being asked to write a bio about yourself? It's from your... Well, you know, like, it's just like,

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I don't know, half a dozen things that I have been involved in here or there. And there's always like

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that dreaded, hey, can you send me a bio? And I'm always like, oh, seriously? Do I have to send a

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bio? Anyway, so let's start with what really, I think, is your heart is you being a pastor.

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That's kind of where you've centered on. It's your full-time job. Tell me about your church,

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because we'll start there because I think that's you are an affirming church, which is

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that's outside the status quo. And I think it's becoming status quo slowly.

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Tell me about your church first, and then we'll dive a little bit into that. Okay. Sure. So I do

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a pastor of church, actually the co-lead ministers, as you mentioned, my official title.

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So my wife and I, Janelle and I, co-lead that church together. That's actually a relatively

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new development. She came on as my co-lead minister almost a year and a half ago.

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And that was a reflection of the church growing to the point where it could afford to bring

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a co-lead minister on staff. And then I was entering into the PhD program at the time,

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so I needed somebody to help shoulder that bandwidth. But then also the other reality was,

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and so you guys know this, you've been around churches for a long time. Your history is

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evangelical like mine, so I'm sure this will sound familiar. But we were just like,

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working two full-time jobs and only getting paid for like one part-time job for many,

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many years. And so by the time the church grew enough to sustain both of us, it was sort of a

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recognition that she'd been an unpaid staff member for years at that point. And so it was sort of

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partly about making it right. And then also a reflection of our value for more egalitarian

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staff, which is why instead of her becoming like an associate pastor, we shared the job.

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So that's relatively new to us. And we've been kind of working out the kinks of like leading

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together as a married couple. There's some weirdness there. But we're good partners. We've

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been married a long time, and so we have been figuring that out. The church itself is actually

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part of the mainline denomination called the Disciples of Christ, which is one of the kind

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of like seven main, quote unquote, liberal mainline denominations. So part of my story is

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switching teams, so to speak, leaving evangelicalism in 2010. And then after a bit of a

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journey, getting back into ministry and finding a denomination that I felt like I could fit in and

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found the disciples. And it just so happened that there was a church in my hometown that was part

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of the denomination, not my hometown, but the town I was living in at the time. That was part of my

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denomination or that denomination, and they needed a pastor. So it's kind of a weird confluence of

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things that all came together. And at that point, I was like, well, maybe there is a God, maybe this

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is what I'm supposed to do. So I ended up there. That was eight years ago. And really that

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doing a project. Sorry. What were you doing at that time? Before I became the pastor there?

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I was teaching at the local university and also had been a fundraising executive for a semi-large

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local nonprofit. So when I left the ministry and left evangelicalism in 2010, I went to work for

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the nonprofit world. And we did that for about five years before getting back into ministry.

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So that's a tough space. I worked in that. It is. I worked for a homeless agency that had five

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locations in the United States. We were 10 million dollars. So my nut was 10 million every year.

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I was the director of development. It's a tough space because it's the hard part about ministry

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in general is that there needs to be funds. And you struggled with that entire question the entire

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time, sounds like in your journey. What has that been like? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Just the funding

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side of it in general. Yeah. So part of ministry is this idea, Jesus said, love your neighbor.

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And so it's doing things out of love, but functionally, it's tough to create ministry

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without money. And so how have you guys navigated that? Because I think as part of your bio,

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your church imploded and then you rebuilt it and then got to the point where you and your wife

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could be the pastors. What has that journey been like? Yeah. I mean, our church, when we first

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started there was kind of a classic mainline congregational story. It had peaked in the 60s

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and then went through a period of about 40 years of just very steady decline. By the time

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when we got there in 2015, it was about 40 members, most of them over the age of 75.

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They were out of money. The only reason they were still operating is because

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a member had died and left them a chunk of money. It wasn't that much money. It was just

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a chunk of money. It wasn't that much, but it was enough to keep the lights on.

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And so that was kind of the state of things when I got there. How we handled that honestly is

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because I'd spent five years working in the nonprofit world, four of that as a director

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of development for an agency with about a $10 million budget, it's very similar to Jonathan.

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I really in that four or five year period of time really learned a lot about having a different

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kind of posture towards money in a nonprofit organization, became a lot less idealistic and

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a lot more pragmatic. And also just really began to I think see, because I worked in a nonprofit,

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as opposed to like a church, I really became aware of just sort of like what best practice

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in a good nonprofit is and realized like, well, we didn't do any of this in the churches that I was

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on staff with. We weren't transparent about our money. We acted like we were entitled to people's

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money. We weren't asking questions like, what kind of impact are we having with the money that we

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bring in? And then how are we demonstrating that impact, not just to our members, but to the

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surrounding community? How are we showing that the money that you give to this organization

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produces a good outcome? These are bread and butter questions for a nonprofit.

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If you can't do all that, if you can't demonstrate that the money you're bringing in is making a

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genuine positive impact on the most critical issues in your community and be transparent about

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it at the same time, then you're not going to be able to compete in a charitable space.

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Unless you're like one of those nonprofits that's just fleecing people. And there are lots of those

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for sure, right? Unfortunately. Yeah, unfortunately. Exactly. So I think like by the time I got back

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into ministry, I realized, well, if I'm ever a pastor again, if I'm ever doing that again,

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I'm going to treat our church like it's a nonprofit. And that's what we've done. So we

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really emphasize making a material impact on the community around us. We tell people,

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you don't have to give us money. God doesn't require to you to give us money. God certainly

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doesn't require to you to give 10% of your money. And so give us money if you believe in what we do,

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if you trust us to spend it well, and if we have demonstrated that we are making good decisions.

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If you don't believe those things, you shouldn't be giving us anything. So we kind of flipped the

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script on that. I mean, our budget has increased by nearly 50 to 80% every year in the past eight

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years. So I'd say people have responded really well. You know, when I first got there in 2015,

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our budget was $89,000. Our budget this year is $434,000. So I think that's a good thing.

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$34,000. So I think it's worked quite well. Now it's worked partly because we're also the kind

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of church that exhibits in very progressive spaces. And so those messages and those ethics

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around money appeal to people who are in more sort of liberal or progressive head spaces and

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in more liberal or progressive community spaces. If my church was full of like very traditional,

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conventional, right leaning Christians, it wouldn't work at all. You know, I'd just tell them,

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God wants you to give your 10%. And if you do, then you're going to get lots of money back.

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And that's what would work. Right. So, you know, it fit with like that flipping the script,

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fit with the overall posture and tenor of the kind of church that I wanted us to be anyway.

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If that makes sense, you know, we're reaching people or we're trying to create a safe space,

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I should say, for people who no longer trust religion and no longer trust church. So it was

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important to reverse the way that we were talking about things like money. Money is not the only

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issue, but money is one of those issues where churches have demonstrated that they can do a

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lot of harm. And that's the reason why a lot of people have left. So we had to talk about money

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very differently. Well, we don't even have to start talking about Adam or the LGBT side of things or

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creation or like Young Earth to do that. But speaking of kind of potential reasons people

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leave the church or kind of have their moment, go back to 2010. I'd love to hear a little bit

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about your story. If you went through a cathartic moment or you had some kind of deconstruction,

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tell me about what was going on in your headspace as you left that evangelical,

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traditional evangelical community. Yeah, Janelle and I spent about 15 years in

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like charismatic evangelicalism. My first ordination is in the vineyard community of

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churches, if you're familiar with that. Oh, yeah. One of the vineyards that we are in for about 12

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years leaned really heavily Pentecostal. So we were really steeped in a very Pentecostal environment

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for a lot of years. And starting around the early 2000s, I just really began to grow disillusioned

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with the things I was seeing in those spaces, things that look like abuse of power and

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manipulation around all kinds of things, including money, but also just the way that people's lives

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were, I think, really being controlled in ways that were harmful. And so I began to really sort of

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take those things apart. And honestly, like, probably around that time was when, like late

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90s, early 2000s, probably the thing that catalyzed like a long, slow deconstruction process for me,

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because it started way before 2010, right? Sure. I was at a Promise Keepers event in like

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the late 90s, right? You guys are old enough. You guys have probably been to Promise Keepers.

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I never went to one. I couldn't stand it. Even being fully into the church four days a week,

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I just never got involved. That was never my fancy. Yeah, sorry.

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Oh, that's good. That's good. That's just one last wound that you have to manage. So

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I went to a Promise Keepers event in Boulder, Colorado. And this is like, this is like,

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this is like, is great. It's a great venue. This is a catalyzing moment, right? So we show up at the

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Promise Keepers and in front of the Promise Keepers is a crowd of men dressed in like,

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camouflage, like in military fatigues, right? And they're walking in a circle and they've got

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signs, you know, they're protesting the Promise Keepers event. So me being who I am, like,

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I'm like a beeline for those dudes, because I want to talk to them, right? Like, I want to find out

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what they're about. I want to like, engage, right? Well, it turns out these guys are hardcore,

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strict Calvinists rich. And they are really like, they're, they're livid about Promise Keepers,

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because there are people of different races worshiping inside together. And among a variety

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of like a litany of other, you know, problems that they had with Promise Keepers, that was one of the

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big ones, right? Like whites and blacks worshiping together, you know, it's a sign of the apocalypse.

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And so I just got into like a debate with these guys, you know, like the head guys swear, I kid

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you not how to Hitler mustache, right? Like, you can't make this up. Like he and I were like in this

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debate, he's quoting scripture to me, and I'm like, arguing back and like, I can be a really,

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really annoying like debater. So I was just pushing his buttons, right? And at one point,

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he got so angry with me, this guy's probably in his 40s, right? And I'm in my 20s, he got so angry

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with me, he looked at me. And he said, I know what you want. What you want is for me to punch you

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right in the face. I said, I swear, man, I do not want you to do this. I'm just trying to have a

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conversation. But he was so angry, like, and to the point of being ready to do violence, right?

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So anyway, I disengaged with him, I go inside, we go into the Promise Keepers event, we sing to Jesus,

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you know, people come out and they give an altar call to, you know, 15,000 people who are already

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Christians. I still don't know what that was about. But we went inside and then we, yeah,

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then we had a lunch break. So check this out. On the lunch break, they sent us out to the practice

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field where they had like, you know, mountains of like pre-boxed lunches. And you grab the lunch,

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you sit on the grass, you eat your lunch. I'm sitting there, eating my lunch with like 15,000

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other guys. And I look over to the right and there's a chain link fence. And on the other side of the

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chain link fence is a public park. And there's a wedding going on in the public park. And there's

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a bunch of people from the Promise Keepers at the fence talking to people on the other side of the

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chain link fence. So of course, I'm like, I got to go find out what's going on over there. So I go

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over there. Well, it turns out it's a gay wedding happening at the park next door to Promise Keepers.

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Right. And so there's a bunch of guests from the gay wedding arguing with the Christian men on the

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other side of the fence. Right. So I go up and I sort of insert myself into one of these debates.

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And the guy who was arguing with the wedding guest on the other side of the gate, he gets tired,

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frustrated, he leaves. Right. So I pick up the conversation with this woman named Max. And I

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wouldn't have had language for this at the time, but I'd say Max was non-binary or perhaps lesbian.

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And Max was a delightful human being. We had an amazing conversation. We talked about philosophy

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and theology. We talked about sexuality. We talked about all kinds of amazing things. Right. And at

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some point I said, well, listen, you know, what you really need for your life to be fulfilled is

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Jesus. And she said, oh, I know Jesus. And I was like, what are you talking about? She said,

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I'm a Christian. I love Jesus. And that like, I had no categories for that. Yeah. Right.

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I was undone. I was blown away. And it occurred to me that the men outside of Promise Keepers who

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were protesting a Christian event because it was interracial represented a particular kind of

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Christianity. And that this woman, Max, in this event on the other side of this fence,

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represented another kind of Christianity. And it just hit me like a ton of breaks. Like,

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who would I rather be at a party with? Right. Like, Max really represented

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who I thought Christ really was. And so I just couldn't argue with that. And I left. And from

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that point on, my faith just began to unravel. And then the deconstruction, the classic deconstruction

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event happened for me when a church plant that I was leading here in Oceanside from 2008 to 2010,

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that was doing pretty well. We had like Little House Church, but it imploded because the Great

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Recession hit. We lost 60% of our missionary funds. And we couldn't pay our rent. And I was

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at the end of a long period of having leveraged everything in my life to plant a church for an

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evangelical denomination that had a set of values and doctrinal beliefs, most of which I really

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didn't agree with anymore. And who were just utilizing me to like expand their empire.

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And were giving me no support, no assistance. And when we went bankrupt and lost everything,

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they just dropped us. They weren't there for us. And so that was sort of like the catalyzing

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moment for me to say, not only should I not be like leading a church right now, but I'm not sure

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that I'm still a Christian. And so we just stepped away from the whole thing. And then stepping away

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from Christianity and stepping away from pastoral ministry, having a regular job, non-profit job,

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all of that just opened up the floodgates and gave us the freedom that I think we needed to

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be intellectually honest with ourselves, to rethink things. When your livelihood is no longer

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attached to the message, then you're free to question it. And so we went through a fairly long

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five-year process of like rethinking all of our commitments to faith and to our vocation.

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And at the end of that, this is not everybody's story. It shouldn't be everybody's story, but

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at the end of that, really decided that I was still called the ministry, but I needed to find

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a different context where I could be authentic and live out my moral convictions. For me, the question

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was, can I still be Christian and be moral? And the answer was yes. I just needed to find a group

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of people that would allow me to do that in my way. Jason, let me ask you a question because you

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brought up a really interesting point from the perspective of someone who's inside. You called

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it empire, specifically in context with sort of the Christian organization and almost like that

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monolith that has this, because I remember that, it's this idea that your job is to get people into

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heaven. The empire is about transition of people into heaven. And in spirit, it's a great idea,

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but in practice, it becomes this, you don't really matter if the kingdom isn't using you kind of

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thing. Did you feel that when you were working through that? That must've been pretty rough

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for them to just say, sorry, good luck. How did that feel at the time?

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Oh yeah, no, it was heartbreaking. It was heartbreaking to come to terms with the

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realization that people that I thought genuinely cared about me, about my wife and I, about our

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family, really didn't. That we were only, their commitment to us ended with our utility to

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the organization. And I can understand, people leave our church, they decide they were not

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their cup of tea, even if they've been there for a few years, or they change their faith or their

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beliefs or whatever, and they leave. And we're still connected, we're still friends, but we don't

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spend a bunch of time together. So I understand just proximity, sort of ordering our relationships.

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But I had a church planting coach and a church that was sending us, a sending church and a

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regional overseer, people that I had contact with weekly, on a weekly basis that I spent time with.

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And after we said, hey, we're going to shut this thing down because we're out of money.

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Not because we're out of people, but because we're out of money. And I don't know if we're

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going to be able to pay rent next month. One person returned my call and he was genuinely

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sympathetic. But everybody else didn't even return my calls or my emails. As soon as they

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were done with us, they were done with us. And that was really hard, along with losing my vocation,

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my sense of calling, something I'd poured myself into for 15 years. I had just graduated with my

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seminary degree. I was like, why did I do that? That was a terrible idea. And so yeah, it was tough.

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Wow. You use the term overseer. It's like, oh my God, I'm going back to my theology,

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episkopos, when we were talking about headship and like church quality and stuff. My God,

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you just brought me back about like 15 years. But one of the things I wanted to go back to is,

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the irony of those guys that were arguing out front, the promiscapers about interracial

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faith is like, my God, if they didn't rely on Augustine of Hippo as one of their bedrocks who

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by all definitions, if he wasn't black, he was pretty dark from Northern Africa. I think I've

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even seen iconography of him looking pretty dark there. Do you think if they had realized that or

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if Augustine had walked up to them, you saw Revelation when he chatted with Max, your eyes

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were open. You said, oh my gosh, this is a lovely living representation of the body of Christ. And

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totally blown away. What do you think is the biggest impediment for people reconciling and

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coming to this idea that we're all in the image of God, that in the end, God wants us to be

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with the fullness of him, right? He wants us to live in the fullness and richness of

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his or her blessing, right? Obviously, you talked about the spirit hovering over a few

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sermons ago. And of course, the word in Hebrew is a feminine word. I don't know if it's, I know that

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the word is the Hebrew word for like spirit, but at least in the term of the hovering over the

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waters, that's a feminine word and it's amazing, right? So we have to realize that. So what is

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missing in terms of what people need to bring people together and to understand that we're all-

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Yeah. You mean specifically over like bringing people together across differences or-

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Yeah. Or like would those people have been so fired up and pissed off that had Gustin showed

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up in their midst and he's black, they would have fallen down and go, oh my gosh, what an idiot I am.

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Is it ignorance? Is it a spirit of something else? I mean, we've got a lot of problems right now,

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right? With the Hamas and Israeli conflict, right? And we brought this up at our last

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with our last podcast. I mean, what as a-

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I mean, if you believe the social science, then what underlies authoritarianism, which is what

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we're talking about, right? I think when we're talking about people who read and interpret

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scripture in a rigid way and then want to apply different readings of scripture to other people's

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lives in a rigid way, we're talking about authoritarianism. If you believe the social

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science that underlies authoritarianism, then what drives that is fear. Authoritarians are deeply

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fearful. Authoritarian followers are deeply fearful people and authoritarian leaders are deeply

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fearful people. And the fears that drive the desire to be in control, to control others

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and or to be controlled, like to have the sense of security and safety that comes from having

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really clear boundaries, really rigid concepts that you can live within and the notion that

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somebody else is like watching over all of that to make, keep you safe, that's the desire to be

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controlled. So what underlies, the primary fear that underlies that is fear of people who are

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different than you. It's xenophobia. Now that gets like fleshed out in a million different ways.

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It's fear of people who are different color than you or different culture than you or who have

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different sexual orientation than you or different gender than you, different religion than you. But

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ultimately it's just fear of difference. And the main researcher that I've read, he's done work in,

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this is Robert Altemeier, he's a Canadian researcher, he's retired now. He's sort of

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literally written a book on authoritarianism. And his point is that the Venn diagram of

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authoritarianism and religion, excuse me, right leaning religion, the right leaning religion,

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the Venn diagram of those two things is like practically a circle. So much so that social

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scientists don't know if xenophobia causes religion or if religion causes xenophobia, right? Like

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they're too tightly connected to like figure out where the causation lies. Now that's not to say

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that- It's like the same. It's like one circle, they're the same, right?

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Yeah. Now that's not to say that left leaning expressions of religion don't have fear or

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xenophobia or racism or homophobia or any of those things they do. Like oftentimes I say,

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now that I've been like in both worlds, what most people don't understand about the liberal

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mainline is that most liberal mainliners are right of center. The liberal mainline church

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is largely conservative. So the clergy aren't, clergy are usually like a raging leftists,

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but the congregants themselves are typically like right of center. Even if they're Democrats,

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they're still like relatively conservative Democrats. And so sometimes I tell people,

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the reason that mainline churches are failing is not because they're liberal, that's the evangelical

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party line, right? The reason mainline churches are failing is because they're twice as conservative

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as evangelical churches are. They are theologically and culturally conservative,

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just like evangelical churches, but they're also like archaic in their style, right? Like

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their worship style makes no sense to anybody who was born after 1970. So they're like twice

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as conservative. You have a double barrier to be engaged in those churches. So those churches also

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have those problems and what drives that is fear, right? Religion is an essentially conservative

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phenomenon in history. People turn to it in order to protect themselves from change, not in order to

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embrace and stimulate and bring change. Now there are exceptions to that, of course, like fantastic

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exceptions, like the black civil rights tradition in black Protestant churches in the United States.

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But by and large, they're full of people who are fearful of change.

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Okay. I want to switch gears a little bit because this leads into what we're talking to about.

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You made a conscious choice as part of your church to be both inclusive and affirming.

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What was the journey to that? Because part of it is you started with being in the promise keepers

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group, but you've been drawn towards that community to bring them to the larger, because it's not like,

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hey, let's create a gay community. Let's create an all-inclusive community. What has that journey

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been like? Yeah. Well, I mean, that journey began with that encounter with Max in the late

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90s, I think it was 1999 or something, 1998 or 1999. And then by the time I was leaving

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evangelicalism and leaving ministry, I had decided that I thought that gay sex is not immoral,

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right? It's like the starkest way that I can put it. It is not inherently sinful to have gay sex,

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it is not inherently sinful to have gay sex, at least not more inherently sinful than straight

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sex. You can do it in a way that's harmful, but all other things being equal, it's just sex, right?

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So I'd come to that conviction before I left ministry and I decided that maybe my denomination

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would move in that direction because it had moved in a more liberal direction around women's

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leadership. But by the time I quit, it was clear to me that they were sort of doubling down on

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their homophobia. And that was one of the reasons why I walked away, because I thought, oh, well,

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this isn't going in the direction I hoped it would. And I can't in good conscience be a part of a

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denomination anymore that is homophobic. That just became a very strong conviction of mine.

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And so when I went back to ministry and went looking for a new denomination to be a part of,

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that was one of the criteria. I needed to be a part of a denomination that was

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gay affirming or queer affirming. And so I found that in the disciples of Christ.

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And then what that allowed me to do when I found a church and the disciples that I

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was called to be the pastor of, it gave me a context in which I could do that. And

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the short answer is it's my very strong moral conviction. And so there's no way that I was

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ever going to lead a church again that didn't share that conviction. Now, the church that I

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became the pastor of, as I've already mentioned, was like at death's door. And so there was a long

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process of transformation engaged there. And so we went from being like sort of affirming,

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because we're a part of an affirming denomination, but being quiet about it,

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because that's what it was like when I got there. We went from that to being like, you know, very

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open and loud and celebratory of the gay community. And that process took about

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four years before we got to the place where the church was.

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Four years before we got to the place where the church had changed enough.

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What was the dialogue internally between not just you and the staff, but with the community,

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were they receptive to the idea and like what kind of led that charge?

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Yeah. I mean, there's a whole nother podcast episode potentially, but that church went through,

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like you guys probably have experienced this in other settings.

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Yeah, right. So that church went through a really significant

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shift in culture and change. And that was a contentious shift. And so the last thing

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we were talking about was gay people. They wanted to fight about a bunch of other things.

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And by the time we got through those contentions that are really like, it's a cliche that

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organizations experiencing change go through these like seismic battles. By the time we got

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to the other side of those battles, the congregation was totally different and the culture was totally

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different. And so, you know, one day it was just like, well, we're queer affirming, right?

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And I was like, yep. And everybody was like, great, let's hang a rainbow flag. Like we should be

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doing more. So we really didn't change around that issue. We changed around other issues.

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And by the time those issues got resolved, like we just had a totally different church.

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That's awesome. Where was your wife in all of this? Was she on board fully?

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She was not excited about me going back into ministry at first.

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You know, we'd spent a few years like carving out a different path.

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And at some point I went back to her and said, hey, I feel like it's time for me to go back.

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I miss it. And she was like, I don't know. And I said, listen, I understand. Yeah. She's like,

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yeah, I don't know. So she was much more cautious about it than I was. And she definitely

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followed me into that space. And then of course, when we showed up at that church, she could see

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the dysfunction, like the power dynamics there. I mean, we both could see it. But I had grace for

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it and felt like I had a sense of like, I can see how this could change and I can see what needs to

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be done. And she was like, I don't want to have anything to do with that mess. So she came and

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showed up and volunteered and was a part of it for the first two years. But it wasn't until after

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the lion's share of the conflict had been resolved and ironed out. And frankly, you know,

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a core group of people who were just extraordinarily dysfunctional left. And after they left,

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she was like, okay, I could get involved here. And then she could see that it was going to be

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okay. And then at that point, she really started to jump in, in terms of ministry and was, you know,

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neck deep in it, you know, not long after that. So.

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That's awesome. I want to go back to something you said earlier of coming from a Pentecostal

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background. When you kind of stepped out of the vineyard, did you sort of leave the vineyard

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spirit element behind? What happened to that part? Cause that's sort of the, one of the defining

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qualities of vineyard is being Pentecostal. Did you leave that behind?

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Uh huh. Yeah, I did. Was that tough? It's, it's, and it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's still attention.

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Do you use to give that? Gifts of the tongues?

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I don't, I don't. I can, I can do that. Sometimes, sometimes.

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That's what I'm listening, learning or asking is, did you sort of leave that spirit filled part

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that's actively practiced as part of your own faith? Cause I think it's one of the, it's one

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of the more beautiful parts when it's done right. In a community.

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Yeah, yeah. I'll be the first to admit that I have not figured out how to do that right. So,

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I think that I, I, two things maybe happened with me. One is,

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one is I felt, and to a certain extent still do feel complicit in things that I think were

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harmful to people in the ways that we prayed for people and the ways that we sort of led people

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along and manipulated them emotionally. And I think that's one of the things that I

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felt was that I manipulated them emotionally. And I found that I'm really good at that.

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Like I'm really, really good at reading people's mail and intuitively picking up on what's going

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on in their lives and speaking into that in a way that moves them in a certain direction.

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I can still do it. It is not a hard thing to do. And that really, I think scares me because, like

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I said, I feel complicit in what I think were probably harmful practices for a lot of people.

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Now for lots of people, it wasn't harmful. And this is what makes it complicated is looking back

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on those times. Yeah. Yeah. In my experience, some of that was very good for people. They

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experienced things that were, they experienced good outcomes. But that is one complication is

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I feel complicit in some practices that I think were not healthy. So I don't pick it back up again.

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Even though I could. There's a whole funny story about that related to being back at Fuller,

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because there are people at Fuller who do that. And they want to do it every time we have any kind

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of a meeting. And it makes me crazy. And part of the reason it makes me crazy is because I can just

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jump right back in and do it. It's not hard. It's called cold reading. Right? Yeah. Is that a

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minute? I mean, because one of the things about being a Calvinist, of course, is that I looked at

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this. I mean, I was never a cessationist. And that's probably a good thing. And I certainly

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believe one of the ways you can get more involved in this stuff is to have that heart centeredness,

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is to lead with your heart. Right? And we had prayer sessions at my church up in Rockland,

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where we're going for like 24 hours. Right. And there's people that needed that. And you get caught

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up and you're praying and it feels really good. Right. And this kind of like this affirmation and

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you're going through the motion. But I always looked at the idea of people going, la, la, la,

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la. Right. And I go to Glossier. Right. And I go, you know, Pentecost, guess what, boys and girls,

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they were all understanding each other's languages. They were actually from different countries and

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they were actually speaking real languages, but they understood it. And it's called Glossier. And

379
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I always that's the that's the that's the hill I would die on. Right. And not like this lurching

380
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,920
in the church floor and the Bethel kind of movement. But that being said, you know, now that I'm here

381
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:03,520
and I'm open to so much new stuff, I guess I really want to understand is where does it so,

382
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:09,840
where is it so unity and real strength and kind and the power moving forward versus where does it

383
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:15,120
so discord and like the haves and the have nots. Like I've read this book by Frank Peretti a long

384
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:20,480
time ago. Right. This present darkness and the protagonist's wife was always so sad because she

385
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,480
couldn't speak in tongues and she was just cast aside. You know, you suck. Right. And that's just

386
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:30,640
a terrible thing, too. Right. So help me understand that kind of dynamic and where it might you think

387
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:35,680
have some value still today and in the circles that we interact with, you know.

388
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:43,120
Yeah, so absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And Pentecostal. Yeah. In Pentecostal settings,

389
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:48,800
those those external phenomena are used to create a class structure and power structure that is

390
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:58,240
extraordinarily harmful. So for that reason, oh, I didn't like this is a phenomenon. Oh,

391
00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:04,800
it's a huge problem. This is a huge problem, especially in the global south, because

392
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:13,120
global Pentecostalism is the at this point, close to the largest expression of Christianity on the

393
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:17,760
planet. Now, global south Christianity is by far the largest expression of Christianity on the

394
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:23,040
planet, but a healthy dose of that is Catholic. And of course, there are Catholic there are plenty

395
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:27,040
of Catholic or even liturgical like Anglican churches, you know, and the Catholic Church

396
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:32,560
or like Anglican churches in the global south that are Pentecostal. But the real phenomenon,

397
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:38,800
like the amazing phenomenon is independent Pentecostalism. And in South America and

398
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:45,280
Africa, this is not this is less of an issue in Asia than South America and Africa. They just

399
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:52,160
really wrestle with these issues of unequal or asymmetrical power dynamics that are created by

400
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:57,760
these external phenomena. Right. So if you can do that, if you can if you can speak in tongues,

401
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:04,400
or you can give somebody a word of knowledge, or you can demonstrate the physical accepted

402
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:10,080
physical manifestations of the Holy Spirit, then you are instantly your status is instantly elevated.

403
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:19,760
You gain real power in the community. And then that power is, in my experience, abused all the time.

404
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:26,880
And, you know, and so this is this is known to be an issue. And so that's the complicity I'm referring

405
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:34,880
to. Now, is there space for that in the future? Well, so I'll answer that question by saying this,

406
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:44,400
right, like as an analytically oriented, white, straight, cisgendered American man, I will say

407
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:48,560
that, you know, one of the obvious problems with Western civilization in general and Western

408
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:56,240
religion in particular, is that it is too dualistic, that it has sacrificed embodiment

409
00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:05,120
at the altar of like cognition. And so, and so there's a reason global Pentecostalism is a

410
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:14,640
phenomenon. It's because it satisfies this human need for somatic embodied experience. And, and so,

411
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:19,200
you know, it's the old joke that like, this is the other reason liberal mainline churches are failing

412
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:26,400
is because, you know, they're the frozen chosen, right, like they're, they're intellect on, they're

413
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:33,600
intellect on ice, rather than, you know, passion on fire. And in globally speaking, most people

414
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:39,600
will choose passion on fire any day over intellect on ice. Now that's, that comes with its major

415
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:47,280
pitfalls, to your point, Rich. But it is also a feature of Western colonialism that we have used

416
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:57,040
dualistic disembodiment as a tool of power and oppression. And so, and so there is a need to

417
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:03,520
re-embrace that. Now, how do I do that in a church like mine that is, you know, white, liberal,

418
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:10,800
mainline Protestant, and, and for all those reasons, very disembodied? I don't really know.

419
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:18,160
I think at this point, this exact issue is why Richard Rohr is so incredibly popular among white

420
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:26,560
progressives, because Richard Rohr has opened the door for a lot of post evangelicals to a somatic

421
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:32,400
embodied expression of spirituality in the contemplative tradition. And so,

422
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:41,360
and so I think that that contemplative tradition scratches that itch for a lot of folks who may not,

423
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:47,360
they may not be comfortable for cultural reasons showing up at a Pentecostal service,

424
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:51,760
where people are jumping up and down, you know, or they're, they're acting in ways that are not

425
00:44:52,560 --> 00:45:00,480
acceptable in white culture, right? And so, and so I think like, in our case, like we, we do

426
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:08,720
practice sort of contemplative, you know, exercises, because that's our way of trying to

427
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:16,960
embody a kind of somatic spirituality and affective spirituality without succumbing to

428
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:23,920
the, the potential power abuses of being more charismatic. That's how we've done it. I have

429
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:31,680
no idea where we're going with that. I think this is just one of the great like unresolved issues

430
00:45:32,240 --> 00:45:39,920
in my ministry is dealing with kind of the baggage of that part of my past. So that's,

431
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:40,560
no, that's-

432
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:41,440
Full disclosure.

433
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:46,320
Amazing stuff, Jason. I'm glad you brought up contemplative because

434
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:53,520
because Jonathan and I have been exploring quantum entanglement and quantum physics and

435
00:45:53,520 --> 00:46:00,560
the unified field now for some time. And in terms of tapping into that, and it's my belief that when

436
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:06,080
you hit that level, you know, with, you know, that war talks about that Merton was able to espouse

437
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:12,240
that Finney, you know, that those contemplative places where you're in pure stillness, that we

438
00:46:12,240 --> 00:46:18,400
believe is pure consciousness, right? That's where you get to a place of peace, of relaxation.

439
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:23,040
When I do TM, Transcendental Meditation, that's where I actually find that place. And of course,

440
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:28,720
Jonathan and I both believe that when you're on psychedelics, you know, you can, through the help

441
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:35,360
of plant medicine, can get, can get there. So tell me a little bit about that contemplative

442
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:40,240
journey that you're on with your, with your congregants and what your, some of the, some of

443
00:46:40,240 --> 00:46:47,600
the, you know, the findings you've got. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would say that it's something that

444
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:54,000
still represents a real minority of what we do. You know, we're trying to balance, I think a lot of,

445
00:46:55,600 --> 00:47:01,120
a lot of, we're trying to spin a lot of plates from the perspective of like, okay,

446
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:09,200
well, how do we, how do we create a context that's meaningful for people who have been away from

447
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:16,960
church for years, they disaffiliated, and they're, they're trying to decide if like, they should

448
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:24,400
give Christianity like one more chance, right? Or they left a church very recently, because they've

449
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:32,320
started to like deconstruct for lack of a better word. And they did get like somebody loaned them

450
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:39,040
a Richard Rohr book or, you know, they're, they're starting to, they have a gay cousin or sibling,

451
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:45,040
and you know, they are now wrestling with the implications of that. In those cases, like we

452
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:51,840
don't try to immerse people like in a highly spiritual experience, because they're really just

453
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:58,960
evaluating whether or not Christianity has any legitimacy, whether or not, you know, whether or

454
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:07,040
not they can be Christian and be moral. And so I think, you know, for us, our space, like the

455
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:12,800
particular niche that we have tapped into for now, not that this is what it will always be, but

456
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:18,080
for now, we are leaning much more heavily into like being a space of processing,

457
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:23,680
like where people's journeys are and where they maybe are hoping to go.

458
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:32,000
And, and then we do a few other things that reassure them, right? Like one is, you know,

459
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:37,520
we try to really center and make very visible members of the queer community, both in and

460
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:41,520
outside of our congregation, because that just tells people right away that we're going to be a

461
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:45,520
safe space for them to, to have a different kind of Christianity.

462
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:51,760
And then I, you know, I try to, or I try to exemplify like a reading of scripture that is very

463
00:48:51,760 --> 00:49:00,720
different than the sort of closed minded, like exegetical approach that they are accustomed to.

464
00:49:02,240 --> 00:49:07,520
And so those are like, so in some ways, I think we're more of a palate cleanser for people who

465
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:16,160
have disaffiliated. And so we try not to like immerse them in like these, you know, contemplative

466
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:21,200
experiences. Now, having said that, yeah, it's definitely not for the, for the new initiate,

467
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:28,000
right? I mean, it's, it's, it's challenging. It's just too soon. Yeah, it's too soon for a lot of

468
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:34,080
them, right? Now, having said that, like, we've been doing this for, I don't know, like we sort

469
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:39,600
of turned the corner as a church from the old culture to what, like I said earlier, was kind

470
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:46,720
of a new culture, like right before the pandemic. So, so now at this point, I would say this is one

471
00:49:46,720 --> 00:49:52,400
of the things Janelle and I talk about a lot is it feels like we do now increasingly have a

472
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:59,680
congregation of people who are able to go deeper in terms of spiritual practices. So it's why we've

473
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:04,320
started to experiment with that a little bit more. And, you know, the interesting phenomenon that I've

474
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:09,040
noticed is we have, we still have a healthy dose of people who have a bunch of wounds and baggage

475
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:17,040
from the past, but I'm seeing less of them show up. And I'm seeing more people who have a

476
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:25,360
progressive posture towards their faith and no baggage from their past. And so, so for them,

477
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:30,080
they're just like looking for a place to immerse themselves. And so that to me feels like a little

478
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:36,720
bit of a shift. Like we went from being a largely Gen X church, like right before the pandemic,

479
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:45,040
to now being a largely young millennial or older Gen Z church. And so I think that generational

480
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:53,680
shift is what we're experiencing. Like, oh, these guys like, they're not going to be able to

481
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:59,120
get a lot of the wounds. They're not going to be able to get a lot of the wounds. And so,

482
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:05,120
I think that's the biggest thing. And I think that's the biggest thing is like, they just don't have

483
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:12,160
the wounds in the baggage that Gen Xers had, right? Like, so it's a very different thing.

484
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:17,600
They're much more open-minded, even if they came from a conservative church, right? Like, and a lot

485
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:21,840
of them did. They came from a conservative church, but all of that stuff just kind of bounced off of

486
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,520
it. It's interesting you mentioned that question again in two years. It might be different.

487
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:29,200
No, but that's interesting that generation you have, it does appear. And Jonathan, we've talked

488
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:35,840
about this, especially when we talked about having some universalist friends on about the Gen X and

489
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:42,560
all of the parts of that massive seeker sensitive movement. You think about the

490
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:49,840
Willow Creeks and the Saddlebacks and the structural things of like hell and all these things that came

491
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:56,720
with it. And the newer folks actually are embracing a more open dynamic, especially with the internet,

492
00:51:56,720 --> 00:52:01,360
especially with things on TikTok and a variety of things. And in fact, our atheist friend,

493
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:06,640
Jonathan talked about kids going to the cult, they're going to these movements, or they're going

494
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:13,440
negative introspection or nihilism, right? There's a bunch of different things, right?

495
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:19,520
But it's encouraging to hear that you're seeing this younger group who are definitely going to be

496
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:24,000
more affirming. They've seen everything, right? They've born with electronic devices in their

497
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,360
hands. They know more about technology than we all do, and they don't have the baggage. That's

498
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:35,200
kind of an exciting thing. I want to interject here and ask Jason you a question that dovetails on

499
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:44,800
that. What do you think is strictly from your perspective, having seen this gamut of Gen X to

500
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:53,200
Gen Z, how has Christianity changed over the last, specifically the pandemic, but even longer before

501
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:59,520
that because you've seen a lot, how do you think it's changed? Which Christianity? I mean, I think

502
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:06,240
like this is the one in the media. This is one of the issues. The one in the media. Okay. So

503
00:53:06,240 --> 00:53:14,080
the popular evangelicalism? Probably more in the south. SBC. Are you talking about the SBC? Are

504
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:19,680
you talking about mainline denominations? I think that's what Gen Z is. Like you said,

505
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:26,800
they don't have the baggage. They don't have that. I'm 56. How old are you, Jason?

506
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:34,800
52. Yeah. So we all come from the same generation, but it's like we do carry baggage for that whole

507
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:39,200
arc that happened. The younger generation, you don't see that.

508
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:46,480
Well, I mean, I think I can answer this question pretty easily. I think the way that the church,

509
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:51,120
the dominant expression of Christianity in the United States has changed is that it has

510
00:53:51,120 --> 00:54:00,960
tripled down on all of the beliefs and boundaries and harmful language and rhetoric that has driven

511
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:13,120
people away in droves in the mid-90s. And the evidence of that tripling down is that the vast

512
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:24,640
majority of those folks voted for Donald Trump twice. And so this is a phenomenon that decolonial

513
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:32,320
thinkers call re-Westernization, where the West went through a period of post-colonialism,

514
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:41,280
a kind of decolonizing critique after the colonial era starting in the early 1960s up through 9-11.

515
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:49,920
And that 9-11 triggered a kind of re-Westernization, especially in the United States

516
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:56,240
and the presidencies of George Bush during his tenure when 9-11 happened, but also during the

517
00:54:56,240 --> 00:55:03,840
Obama years. Obama was an unapologetic liberal humanist who believed in the expansion of

518
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:13,040
democracy around the globe. And so there is this reactionary re-Westernizing movement

519
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:19,680
that's emanating largely from the United States. And I think Christianity reflects that same

520
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:28,480
reactionary doubling down on right-wing traditional conservatism. And so you see this, I think,

521
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:29,920
include... Sorry?

522
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:31,440
That's its roots.

523
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:38,880
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that'd be an interesting conversation too, right? Because

524
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:45,920
in a lot of ways, right-wing evangelicalism was a relatively young movement in Christianity.

525
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:56,000
But still there is this reactionary movement, right? And this is why most people are leaving

526
00:55:56,560 --> 00:56:00,160
Christianity. They're leaving Christianity in the United States and prior to that in Europe,

527
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:06,480
because it embodies cultural values and beliefs that just make no sense to them. And I think the

528
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:11,760
church has largely responded by doubling and tripling down on those same things.

529
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:15,040
Yeah, that's fair.

530
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:20,240
Sorry, my dog is barking, so I'm on mute. Hold on a second.

531
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:22,640
No worries.

532
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:31,920
By the way, I was looking at your website. If somebody needs to borrow Immortal Beloved

533
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:41,440
or The Untethered Soul, or they need to borrow Sex God for the upcoming book clubs, I'm all

534
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:47,760
available. They're almost unopened because I'm an Enneagram 7, so I'm a chain reader. So they're

535
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:53,040
perfect in condition. Let me know. Be happy to drive down a couple hours to Oceanside and drop

536
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:53,840
them off.

537
00:56:55,360 --> 00:57:00,240
That's good to know. I have nothing whatsoever to do with picking books for the book club, but

538
00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:04,480
they decide to read those books all that you know.

539
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:10,240
Those are good books. Jason, what's your hope for your community? I want to go back to the

540
00:57:10,240 --> 00:57:18,880
all-inclusive part. To create my impression, so this is just my impression, is that you almost

541
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:26,480
are trying to create a community that would look like heaven. Is that fair? Do you agree with that?

542
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:34,400
Yeah, I think I would agree. I think you wouldn't catch me using that language, but I think I agree

543
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:41,280
with what you're saying. I think we are trying to create a community that reflects the

544
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:43,760
world, the kingdom of heaven.

545
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:56,400
The ethical teachings of Jesus. And I think on top of that, I might be able to create a community

546
00:57:56,400 --> 00:58:08,160
that reflects the world. My conviction is that the teachings of Jesus find a cultural home in

547
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:17,840
every time and place by being translated or interpreted into the cultural language and values

548
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:26,720
of the place. Which means that every prior expression of Christianity won't work for the

549
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:34,800
present moment. And so we're trying to be a faithful interpretation of the teachings of Jesus

550
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:43,200
and the community that should result from that for our current time and place. And so sometimes

551
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:48,960
I tell my Episcopalian friends that the 16th century is a fun place to visit, but I wouldn't

552
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:58,000
want to live there. It's the perfect embodiment of colonial era American religion. But it means

553
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:06,560
nothing whatsoever to somebody who's born in the 21st century, unless they find a particular nerdy

554
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:12,800
pleasure from learning the language and customs and cultural symbols of a prior time. And lots

555
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:20,080
of people do. And that's great. I have no problem with that. If you enjoy that sort of thing,

556
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:24,480
wonderful. As long as you're not hurting people, I'm fine with that. But in our case,

557
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:32,560
I'm not trying to go back to some pristine past that frankly never existed. I'm trying to embody

558
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:39,360
a community in the 21st century that interprets those teachings through symbols and language and

559
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:47,520
cultural practices and cultural morals and ethics that translate in our current time and place.

560
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:53,120
And that means, of course, that we have no choice but to bless and celebrate queer people.

561
00:59:54,160 --> 01:00:00,720
Because it's abundantly clear from our cultural standpoint in the United States that queer sex

562
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:08,160
is good, or at least it can be just as good as straight sex. So we have no moral choice

563
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:12,960
other than to bless it and affirm it and celebrate it. So that's what I mean by that.

564
01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:21,040
We're trying to be a kind of future oriented community of faith that is contextually

565
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:28,960
relevant and contextually applies the teachings of Jesus. So we happen to be in a 100 year old

566
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:39,040
building, which is kind of cool, but in some ways sort of inhibits that. So it's an interesting

567
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:46,160
thing to try to do for sure. Well, I think that the reason why Rob Bell's church is called Mars

568
01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:52,320
Hill and why if you go to the Aeropagus and you go to Corinthians and Paul, I mean, I think you

569
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:58,160
can insert that in any century over the last 2000 years. That's the beauty of it. He wasn't being

570
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:07,440
synchronistic or synchristic. He was using relevant poets and people and he knew what was on their

571
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:12,880
minds. And it was that idea of trying to find truth, right? Like to an unknown God. And he was

572
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:18,160
speaking to them in their own language. And my God, if Corinth wasn't, I mean, it was a verb,

573
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:22,960
right? To Corinthianize, right? So he was in the heart of the kind of stuff that was going on. So

574
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:30,240
that's why I think it's a great expression. And you're going back to, not going back to 16th

575
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:35,840
century, all these structures and buildings and hierarchies, those need to go away, but that

576
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:42,240
spirit of message is still there. Even the idea of a Peter who puts foot in mouth, right? Because

577
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:50,000
of that passion he has for Jesus, whether building tabernacles for Moses and Elijah and Jesus or

578
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:56,960
like, you know, what he did. We love to have Peter because we fuck up all the time too. And God knows

579
01:01:56,960 --> 01:02:02,880
he was the man who was the rock and he fucked up. Even saying after the, you know, on the Mount of

580
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:09,040
Transfiguration, he had a vision of the living God and he still does that. It's such a refreshing

581
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:16,640
thing. I mean, this is what's so beautiful about the word, right? So. Yeah, I agree.

582
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:22,400
I agree. Jonathan, you're on mute. I am on mute. I think that's why we come back to Jesus because

583
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:27,760
Jesus always brings us back to love. Every human being discovers in their entire life that they

584
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:34,720
have suck moments. And that's why grace to me has always been so profound is it says, okay,

585
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:39,840
you're a human being. Let's deal with it. Let's find a way to deal with it. And that's what I

586
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:46,560
mean by the kingdom is you're not trying to create an evangelical version of a long far away

587
01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:53,280
heaven. That's probably not good language, but a image and space of love here that's present

588
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:59,200
because we live in the present and it includes people who are queer. It includes people who

589
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:06,720
are trans. It includes people who don't look like us. I think that's really what attracted me,

590
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:11,440
Jason, is that you, from me to you and why I invited you is because I think your community

591
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:17,440
is trying to create something very not. It's not maybe directive, but it's like this beautiful

592
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:24,480
inclusion that's bigger than because evangelical Christianity, which is my tribe growing up,

593
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:30,160
we liked to circle the wagons and that barrier was friendly. It was protective. It was safe.

594
01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:34,800
And what we realized is that when we would leave on Sunday and Monday go to work, it was

595
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:38,880
that's not the world we live in. So how do we prepare to live in the world? You know,

596
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:45,360
you had to cross over. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And I think your point is well

597
01:03:45,360 --> 01:03:52,400
taken that that's not the world we live in. Right. So the reality is that we live in an

598
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:59,520
extraordinarily pluralistic world, right? You guys are a little farther north than I am. Yeah. But,

599
01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:05,360
you know, you guys are so, you know, Rich is in Los Angeles, Jonathan's in, you said Silicon Valley.

600
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:14,000
I'm in San Diego at the busiest international border crossing in North America. So we live in

601
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:29,600
these incredible, you know, contexts of hybridity. And if we can't love and respect and cooperate

602
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:35,680
and cooperate with people who are different than us, then then we're going to tear each other apart,

603
01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:42,240
which you could argue that is exactly what's happening. And I think you could argue that

604
01:04:42,240 --> 01:04:49,600
the tearing apart that we see happening in American culture is a consequence of how American

605
01:04:49,600 --> 01:05:01,920
religion has tended to, you know, colonize as a kind of hegemonic expression of white supremacy.

606
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:09,360
Right. And so and so now we find ourselves in increasingly like ethnically and culturally diverse

607
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:15,920
country. And we don't know how to we don't know how to feel safe and secure around people who

608
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:25,360
are different than us. And so we are tearing each other apart. So our church, 100%, we want to be

609
01:05:26,240 --> 01:05:34,240
the kind of church and to a small extent are the kind of congregation that can respect and tolerate

610
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:39,760
across those differences. Here's the problem. The problem is everybody has this impulse,

611
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:46,720
this like tribal impulse to be with people who are the same as them, including like left wing

612
01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:54,400
progressives, right? Like, you know, the very best way to make sure that you are kind of homogenous

613
01:05:54,400 --> 01:06:00,160
community is to define yourself as conservative or progressive or whatever it might be, because

614
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:05,760
eventually you're going to like gather those people. And so one of the problems with being an

615
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:10,880
inclusive church, we talk about that obviously a lot, and it's like plastered all over our

616
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:18,160
communication materials, is that that act of being inclusive, that posture of inclusivity,

617
01:06:19,120 --> 01:06:26,240
excludes people who can't tolerate very inclusive environments, right. And so there's a real

618
01:06:26,240 --> 01:06:32,640
tension there. Like, I hate, on the one hand, I hate that we don't have very many fairly conservative

619
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:38,400
people in our congregation anymore. On the other hand, I'm not conservative. So it's nice that I

620
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:42,960
don't have to deal with conservative people in my congregation who are upset because of the way that

621
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:53,200
I spoke about God or whatever. And so that tension is real, and it's difficult to like break that up.

622
01:06:53,200 --> 01:07:02,480
And, you know, it's an impossible project, right? I mean, Christianity is an impossible project,

623
01:07:02,480 --> 01:07:04,480
but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying.

624
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:11,120
Well, what's the good part of it? You've obviously started it and continued it and gotten to a point

625
01:07:11,120 --> 01:07:14,480
where you can financially handle it. What's the best part of it?

626
01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:18,480
That's the best part of our congregation?

627
01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:37,280
That inclusive approach. Yeah. I mean, the best part of it is that for the people who believe in that and have invested in it, it is a genuinely, like kind of crazily authentic space.

628
01:07:37,280 --> 01:07:37,780
There you go.

629
01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:44,880
And this is not just true for my church. I mean, I have other colleagues who have congregations or

630
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:51,760
other kinds of organizations that are like this where it's like AA, right? Like anybody can show up at an AA meeting.

631
01:07:53,520 --> 01:08:08,160
And you can say whatever you have to say at an AA meeting. And that's always sort of been my ideal for a congregation is that people would be able to show up and say,

632
01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:19,840
man, my life is really fucked up this week. Like, hey, how are you? Not good. I am not good. Like, I'm not sure if I believe in this anymore. I'm not even sure why I'm here.

633
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:32,000
And here's so here's how I know that we're moving in the right direction is every Sunday we take communion. It's one of our core values. We just always practice communion

634
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:37,280
because of just what it means symbolically for us as a place of inclusion at the table. And we practice open communion.

635
01:08:37,280 --> 01:08:41,280
You allow everyone to take communion. Of course. That's important.

636
01:08:41,280 --> 01:08:56,240
Yeah, we practice an open communion. And I think actually, not to get into this, but I think there is a good argument for having a closed communion. It's just not my conviction, right? So anyway, we practice open communion.

637
01:08:56,240 --> 01:09:07,120
And that's our traditions, our denominations practice as well. It's one of the reasons why I felt drawn to the denominations. It's not like this is my idea. But anyway, we do that.

638
01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:19,680
And every Sunday communion, unless somebody calls in sick, communion is led by a congregant, not a minister. And that is a little bit more unusual in my denomination.

639
01:09:19,680 --> 01:09:38,400
And it's really common for the congregants who lead communion on a Sunday in our Sunday gatherings to say, you know, I'm not even sure what I believe about Jesus right now at this moment in my life, but I'm really grateful for this practice.

640
01:09:38,400 --> 01:10:07,520
And that kind of those moments are when I'm like, Oh, I think this is working. Like, I think this is, you know, maybe something worth being a part of. Because the fact that nobody feels like they have to get up there and toe the party doctrinal line is just, it's beautiful to me, that our congregation will just love the fact that we're in this together.

641
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:15,680
And we'll just love people all the more because they're so like, just transparent and authentic up there. So I really love that.

642
01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:25,120
That's a hell of a lot more awesome and open than R.C. Sproul not being able to eat the Lord's Supper at Bethlehem Baptist with John Piper, you know, infant baptism.

643
01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:37,200
He was not able to have communion at Bethlehem Baptist. How pathetic is that in contrast, right? And so I went to it's ridiculous.

644
01:10:37,200 --> 01:10:54,880
I went to Richard Roar's conference probably about 14 years ago. One of the most profound experiences I've ever had was at that conference where we all went to lunch together. There was about 20 of us and of congregants who were left over.

645
01:10:54,880 --> 01:11:09,040
The conference was over and we all ate at the restaurant there. And then at the end, we had a bunch of leftover bread that was almost like naan. And someone said, who would like to enjoy communion with me?

646
01:11:10,240 --> 01:11:19,200
And all of a sudden, because the whole point of the conference was to bring the four quadrants of Christianity together. So everybody was there was learned, here's my pocket.

647
01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:31,600
Don't cross over. And all of a sudden, it was very silent. We were kind of just making it happen. I'm like, I'm in. And all of a sudden, it got to this one person and she started crying.

648
01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:41,920
And I said, and we didn't really call it out until after, but she was basically saying, I've never had this permission before.

649
01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:42,720
Wow.

650
01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:51,120
And there were, I mean, we all were weeping because it was the recognition of God. That's what the kingdom of God really looks like.

651
01:11:51,920 --> 01:11:58,640
Is it when we are recognizing each other's humanity and frailty, but also dignity.

652
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:08,640
I mean, it was, it was one of the most dignified moments I've ever had in my life because, and everybody was like, we feel like we're on solid ground here because this is what we wanted to really ultimately look like.

653
01:12:08,640 --> 01:12:13,440
Was that like the wild ghost thing and the big 10 Christianity?

654
01:12:13,440 --> 01:12:22,240
About two or three years later. This, it was the, it was the, his emerging church conference. It was in 2010, I believe.

655
01:12:22,240 --> 01:12:22,720
Got it.

656
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:25,200
It was a fabulous conference. It was wonderful.

657
01:12:25,200 --> 01:12:26,560
Was it Philistichles?

658
01:12:26,560 --> 01:12:31,440
Yeah, that was Philistichles. He and Philistichles did a conference together.

659
01:12:31,440 --> 01:12:35,840
Yeah. Amazing, man. What a great, what a great experience that one must have been.

660
01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:42,880
Yeah. So Jason, this has been absolutely a fantastic interview. Rich, any final questions?

661
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:53,440
No, I mean, I just thrilled. It's been really eye-opening and encouraging and awesome. And I'm looking forward to maybe heading down there before too long to say hi.

662
01:12:53,440 --> 01:13:05,440
Of course it would be welcome anytime. We, even though you guys are hosts of the Dodgers, we do sometimes allow folks from LA to come visit.

663
01:13:05,440 --> 01:13:18,000
I'm not a Dodgers fan. I'm a Steelers fan. Pittsburgh Steelers is my only, is the only team I care about. God knows they're on a little one right now. So yeah, that's it for me, Jonathan.

664
01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:21,840
This has been super fun. I appreciate you guys having me.

665
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:33,760
Jason, thank you. It's been absolutely fantastic having you on. And I really, I think one of the things, just in kind of hindsight, the thing that I've enjoyed about this conversation is I think your heart,

666
01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:46,960
you're not like, you're really genuine. Like you are authentic. And I know that your congregation is going to benefit from that because I think that's what everybody is really looking for is that sense of authenticity.

667
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:53,760
You don't have it all figured out, but you're willing to look, you know, and that's very true.

668
01:13:53,760 --> 01:14:05,520
That can be a very safe space for people. So I bless you for doing that because you can create that more for people. I think more people are going to benefit immensely from that. So thank you for doing that.

669
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:07,040
I hope so. I appreciate that.

670
01:14:07,040 --> 01:14:11,680
Any final words for you, Jason, before we head into the weekend?

671
01:14:11,680 --> 01:14:19,200
No, no, I just appreciate the opportunity to chat about some things that I don't always get to talk about. So thanks for the invitation.

672
01:14:19,200 --> 01:14:26,320
All right, everybody, this has been Living in the Matrix. If you haven't commented before, please do. We'd love to hear from you.

673
01:14:26,320 --> 01:14:56,160
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